-
Quote
I know the incremental cost of software is close to zero but this accessory doesn't look like it's a super long way from zero.
I see what you mean, and you're right, it doesn't look like a very complex or expensive item..
While I agree that there'll certainly be some gouge on such an option, if it's a passive unit some of the "cost" will be in the cable itself: if it's anything like the Tek MSO LA cables, the multi-way coaxial cable and the final probe wires themselves have damped distributed resistance of one or two hundred ohms. For smallish volumes and runs, the tooling to make such cables is going to be a very significant factor.
As a comparison, the Rigol MSO1000 cables (RPL1116) take a different approach, they use active pods with comparators and simple ribbon cable to avoid the need for special cable and counter intuitively these are almost certainly much cheaper to make than a passive cable with distributed resistances.
-
While I agree that there'll certainly be some gouge on such an option, if it's a passive unit some of the "cost" will be in the cable itself: if it's anything like the Tek MSO LA cables, the multi-way coaxial cable and the final probe wires themselves have damped distributed resistance of one or two hundred ohms. For smallish volumes and runs, the tooling to make such cables is going to be a very significant factor.
As a comparison, the Rigol MSO1000 cables (RPL1116) take a different approach, they use active pods with comparators and simple ribbon cable to avoid the need for special cable and counter intuitively these are almost certainly much cheaper to make than a passive cable with distributed resistances.
I haven't seen the WS3k LA cables (which like the scope itself are made by Siglent) in real life yet but I'd bet they are not coax cables but plain standard ribbon cables on active probe pods, similar to Rigol, or my Siglent SDS2204. -
Thanks for all the good info WH. After getting a chance to do a test drive I decided I really like the WS3K UI and controls better and ended up jumping on a WS3054 refurbed and a used but working AP020 FET active probe (for $200!!!). If the probe works well I'll get a second one. The refurb won't include the FG or WS3K-EMB decoder, but even buying the decoder at the ridiculous MSRP ($950) it's still a bargain and I can get it if (when) I find I need it, or hang back and see if LeCroy will push an app bundle at some point. The FG... meh. Pass for my uses although I can see it being convenient for location work or assembly testing. For my uses the button is a waste of panel real estate. I also see the MSO pod available used now (one on eBay for $1k) so apparently the family has been around long enough now to start making its way onto the used market.
I liked so many things about it - the use of the full screen width, automatic scaling, measurement histograms, the fast math, the FFT, the glitch finder, and above all just the nice, quick, accurate touch response. I thought I'd find the touchiness a bit gimmicky, but I really like it. It's just really well done. Now I just want my own sitting on the bench ASAP.
Anyway, without your... endorsement... I probably would never have considered LeCroy.
-
Can we software upgrade the bandwith to 750 Mhz?
After some search i now consider a Lecroy Wavesurfer3024...would be nice to see a review and teardown of it made by Dave! -
Thanks for all the good info WH.
No problem, glad I could help.QuoteAfter getting a chance to do a test drive I decided I really like the WS3K UI and controls better and ended up jumping on a WS3054 refurbed and a used but working AP020 FET active probe (for $200!!!). If the probe works well I'll get a second one. The refurb won't include the FG or WS3K-EMB decoder, but even buying the decoder at the ridiculous MSRP ($950) it's still a bargain and I can get it if (when) I find I need it, or hang back and see if LeCroy will push an app bundle at some point. The FG... meh. Pass for my uses although I can see it being convenient for location work or assembly testing. For my uses the button is a waste of panel real estate.
Yes, the internal FG (actually, it's now an AWG after firmware update not too long ago) isn't great, like the the generators that come with most scopes these days. Unless you get it enabled for free it's probably better to just buy a separate generator instead if you need one.
The AP020 is an older probe (came out around 1997 I think but has been produced for quite a long time) but it's still a very good one. But I'm not sure it's supported on the WS3000 (although the AP020 works with all newer and current'full size' X-Stream scopes i.e. those running a full copy of desktop Windows), but I would be surprised if LeCroy had stripped support from the software of their embedded scopes. So please, when you get it let us know if the WS3000 works with the AP020.QuoteI also see the MSO pod available used now (one on eBay for $1k) so apparently the family has been around long enough now to start making its way onto the used market.
Well, the WS3000 came to market I think around April 2014, and has sold pretty well, so I'm sure we'll see an increasing number of them appearing as refurbs and used. Considering that the RRP for these scopes was already very low it will be interesting to see how 2nd hand pricing will develop.QuoteI liked so many things about it - the use of the full screen width, automatic scaling, measurement histograms, the fast math, the FFT, the glitch finder, and above all just the nice, quick, accurate touch response. I thought I'd find the touchiness a bit gimmicky, but I really like it. It's just really well done. Now I just want my own sitting on the bench ASAP.
I thought the same (touch being a gimmick) before I tried it, but as you said MAUI works pretty well, and that it is a really good UI is shown by the fact that it does so not only on a smaller scope like the WS3000 but also on high end scopes like WavePro or LabMaster which are full with options of which every one has a ton of settings.
The WS3000 is a really nice scope, and because it's still a X-Stream scope it's also pretty fast. It also shows that Siglent can produce really good hardware, an that the end product works well if they are not left anywhere near to software
QuoteAnyway, without your... endorsement... I probably would never have considered LeCroy.
That's why I mentioned them, to show some potential alternatives to the trodden path of Agilent/Keysight
Once you get your scope and you have used it for a bit it would be great if you would consider doing a review. I'd guess there's some interest for it.
-
So please, when you get it let us know if the WS3000 works with the AP020.
I'll start a separate thread for it, just to collect info in one place.
I wasn't able to find any hard info on the AP020, but I'm also looking at the AP034 which is a differential1.5GHz1GHz FET probe of roughly the same vintage as far as I can tell. For that one I found a data sheet/overview, which states it's a ProBus device, so I'm kind of leaping to the conclusion the AP020 is as well and might just work unless they made significant changes to ProBus. But I can't imagine they would have rerouted the power, so maybe it'll at least work in a "dumb" mode (i.e. not adjustable from the scope). But yeah, it's a bit of a leap. I figured it probably uses I2C for configuration so cutting SCL and SDA might make it appear and work as a "dumb" powered probe. Or if they dropped support for it make it work in a dumb mode with a warning popup to the effect that reconfiguration is not supported by this scope model. It can also be converted to a dumb BNC probe with the ADPPS power supply; same with the AP034. I'd get one of those with the differential probe anyway so I can use it with my VNA.
-
Can we software upgrade the bandwith to 750 Mhz?
After some search i now consider a Lecroy Wavesurfer3024...
I guess it depends what your starting point is (i.e. I doubt the 200MHz variant can be upgraded to 750MHz just by software, but the 500MHz probably can).Quotewould be nice to see a review and teardown of it made by Dave!
I wouldn't hold my breath. LeCroy is a bit picky which reviewers they support so I guess unless Dave gets one from somewhere else... -
So please, when you get it let us know if the WS3000 works with the AP020.
I'll start a separate thread for it, just to collect info in one place.
That's a good idea.QuoteI wasn't able to find any hard info on the AP020, but I'm also looking at the AP034 which is a differential
1.5GHz1GHz FET probe of roughly the same vintage as far as I can tell. For that one I found a data sheet/overview, which states it's a ProBus device, so I'm kind of leaping to the conclusion the AP020 is as well and might just work unless they made significant changes to ProBus.
I have some AP034 and AP033 (the 500MHz variant) as well, again great probes and they work with all scopes from the old 9300 Series to the current WaveRunner 6zi or HDO Series.
The ProBus interface hasn't been changed since its introduction in the 9300 Series back in the '90s, so from the electrical side you should be fine. I just wonder if the firmware on the WS3000 "knows" these probes, but I'd say it would be pretty silly if they didn't. -
Can we software upgrade the bandwith to 750 Mhz?
After some search i now consider a Lecroy Wavesurfer3024...
I guess it depends what your starting point is (i.e. I doubt the 200MHz variant can be upgraded to 750MHz just by software, but the 500MHz probably can).
Then is it upgradable by sending it to Lecroy and they can change the Frontend board? I am interested in the 200Mhz for the moment but i would like to be able to upgrade it to 750Mhz in the future. -
The ProBus interface hasn't been changed since its introduction in the 9300 Series back in the '90s, so from the electrical side you should be fine. I just wonder if the firmware on the WS3000 "knows" these probes, but I'd say it would be pretty silly if they didn't.
Aha!
http://teledynelecroy.com/support/knowledgebase.aspx?docid=201&typeid=1&capid=106&mid=530&smid=
WaveSurfer is ProBus compatible. You can use active probes with the WaveSurfer, including HFP1000, AP034, AP033, AP020, AP031, ADP300, ADP305, CP500, CP150, CP015, and AP015.
Lookin' good for the home team!!!
-
I'd definitely be interested in (or add to) a Lecroy comparison / cross compatibility thread.
I'm looking for my next one now, so having a(nother) reference point would be of great value, so NO bidding against me on ebay :-)
-
Aha!
http://teledynelecroy.com/support/knowledgebase.aspx?docid=201&typeid=1&capid=106&mid=530&smid=
WaveSurfer is ProBus compatible. You can use active probes with the WaveSurfer, including HFP1000, AP034, AP033, AP020, AP031, ADP300, ADP305, CP500, CP150, CP015, and AP015.
Lookin' good for the home team!!!
Be careful, it doesn't say WS3000. Before the WS3000 came out the WaveSurfer Series pretty much only consisted of 'full' Windows scopes running the full X-Stream stack on a x86 platform. The WS3000 is an Embedded scope running a 'light' version of X-Stream on an embedded platform.
The article probably predates the WS3000. But as I said I can't imagine why it shouldn't support all ProBus probes. -
I'd definitely be interested in (or add to) a Lecroy comparison / cross compatibility thread.
I'm looking for my next one now, so having a(nother) reference point would be of great value, so NO bidding against me on ebay :-)
Frankly, there's not much that to discuss re. probe compatibility. It's actually pretty simple:
LeCroy's entry level scopes (i.e. LiteRunner LP, WaveJet, WaveAce, all pretty much bought in an rebadged) have a standard BNC input only. There's no control for active probes, and if you want to use active probes with these scopes then the probe needs to be powered externally.
LeCroy's mid-range (WaveSurfer) and high-end (9300, LC, all WaveRunner, all WavePro, all HDO) scopes have ProBus, which is BNC with a I2C interface to power and control active probes. Once a probe is supported the support for it pretty much stays in later firmware versions. That means for example an old AP033 probe still works on a modern HDO4000 Series scope, however a new probe like the ZS1000 will not be supported by say the 9300 Series because the scope's firmware doesn't know it. It will however work on say a WavePro 7000 from 2001 because the scope is still supported by X-Stream software updates.
LeCroy's upper and ultra high end scopes (i.e. WaveMaster, LabMaster) use ProBus, which is basically ProLink but with a high frequency RF connector. Pro link is 50ohms and low voltage (5V max) only, but ProBus probes can be used on ProLink scopes through an adapter. Newer ProLink scopes like the WaveMaster 8zi can also have a second set of ProBus inputs as an option.
That's pretty much it. -
Can we software upgrade the bandwith to 750 Mhz?
After some search i now consider a Lecroy Wavesurfer3024...would be nice to see a review and teardown of it made by Dave!
Software upgrades only go up to 500MHz. After that, you have to sent it into LeCroy where they replace the front-end business with different front-ends. -
The AP020 is fully recognized and works beautifully! My probe came with a few accessories (ground pin, ground clip dongle, grabber) and storage case. Not bad for $200... might buy one more. The generic adapter kit for it is probe kit PK005; ordered one from Tequipment but I'm not confident they'll be able to source it. Worth a try though. The AP020 is shorter than the passive 500MHz probes and a little fatter so can't use the same accessories. The ground pin is a little different too, and not just a spring.
Bought an AP034 differential probe for $150 that's not here yet. Let's how it works.
"Won" the WS3K-MSO pod on Best Offer from the same dealer (Avalon Test Equipment) as I got the scope from.
So starting to put a nice little kit together here. Will do a little mini review at some point but right now I've unblocked so many projects I'm going to be busy for a while!
-
The AP020 is fully recognized and works beautifully! My probe came with a few accessories (ground pin, ground clip dongle, grabber) and storage case. Not bad for $200... might buy one more. The generic adapter kit for it is probe kit PK005; ordered one from Tequipment but I'm not confident they'll be able to source it. Worth a try though. The AP020 is shorter than the passive 500MHz probes and a little fatter so can't use the same accessories. The ground pin is a little different too, and not just a spring.
Bought an AP034 differential probe for $150 that's not here yet. Let's how it works.
"Won" the WS3K-MSO pod on Best Offer from the same dealer (Avalon Test Equipment) as I got the scope from.
So starting to put a nice little kit together here. Will do a little mini review at some point but right now I've unblocked so many projects I'm going to be busy for a while!
Thanks for reporting back! Good to hear that the AP020 works with the WS3000. I'm pretty sure the AP034 will work, too. -
- buggy user interfaces. one The 7000 and 7300 DSA's : spin the timebase knob too fast and the scope bluescreens... whoopdedoo. STILL not fixed after 10 years of complaining !
I'll be sure to bring that one up next time somebody says the DS1000Z is "bugridden" (and more expensive scopes aren't...)
-
So starting to put a nice little kit together here. Will do a little mini review at some point but right now I've unblocked so many projects I'm going to be busy for a while!
I hope you can make some time free to do a review on the WS3k; I'd like to see and read more about it. -
- buggy user interfaces. one The 7000 and 7300 DSA's : spin the timebase knob too fast and the scope bluescreens... whoopdedoo. STILL not fixed after 10 years of complaining !
I'll be sure to bring that one up next time somebody says the DS1000Z is "bugridden" (and more expensive scopes aren't...)
If you don't mind to look stupid, just go ahead!
The claim above is not just silly but also completely wrong, and this particular user (who has been posting his list pretty much in any LeCroy related thread for a while) already admitted he didn't even bother to upgrade the firmware in all the 14yrs(!) since that bug was fixed (it pretty much only affected very early WP7k/WM8k and DSA scopes running Windows 2000 and was fixed pretty fast back then in 2002, and while software support for W2k scopes has stopped a while ago these scopes can be upgraded to XP and run the latest X-Stream software which is fully supported on those old instruments).
And just to be clear: no-one said more expensive scopes are bug free. But the number of bugs is generally very small, and even non-critical bugs get fixed very quickly. Plus contrary to your favorite Chinese B-brand, with these scopes you know how long you will get support, which with LeCroy is at least 7 years after a scope has stopped being produced. -
Quote from: Wuerstchenhund
.... with these scopes you know how long you will get support, which with LeCroy is at least 7 years after a scope has stopped being produced.
PLUS, once your model has been EOS'd, you can d/load ALL the maths and FFT options FREE !! and some of these are quite extensive !
I've updated 3 LeCroys so far, over the last 2 yrs, with options that would have cost me $10's of 1,000s had I bought them with the scope. -
So I went and got a WS 62MXs-b from the LeCroy factory refurb-shop at ebay. Where do I sign up for the fanboy club? We need a T-shirt or something!
They took my price offer (about -10% from what they asked) so I paid about 1/4th of the list-price (62MXs-b still listed at digikey, although this model is being EOSed real soon I think?)
4-channel scopes seems to be the fashion now so the 2-channel ones are sold away since nobody wants them?
The black box arrived today and I had time to play a bit. Everything ok so far but a few observations:
- appears brand new. maybe I can check hardware dates etc. (MFG 2013-JUN on the back) but at least it looks and feels like new-from-factory. manuals, cal-certs etc included.
- it runs quite hot, with loud fans, I guess there's an old CPU in there that runs XP? (or is it the scope ADCs and ASICS that run hot?). Has anyone compared noise and heat to the newer 3000-series?
- it clickety-cliks relays quite a lot and says "Calibrating.." quite a lot. I hope this is just during warmup?
- came with a USB-GPIB dongle which might actually find use in controlling other instruments via software on the scope.
- passive probes PP024 are only 500MHz while scope is listed as 600MHz... oh well.
- stupid Q but what's the BNC-connector on the back-side top right? no text on that... and too lazy to pickup manual now..
- also came with EU power-cord which was a nice touch (US or UK cord would have just been a throw-away..)
If anyone has ideas for DIY active probes and/or DIY LA (needs software license also?) I could be interested. I will probably do a BW test and/or rise-time test at work sometime soon... stay tuned.
-
So I went and got a WS 62MXs-b from the LeCroy factory refurb-shop at ebay. Where do I sign up for the fanboy club? We need a T-shirt or something!
Nah, that's for the Keysight crowdQuoteThey took my price offer (about -10% from what they asked) so I paid about 1/4th of the list-price
(62MXs-b still listed at digikey, although this model is being EOSed real soon I think?)
It's due to be EOS'd pretty soon. The WaveSurfer (M)Xs-B held the spot that is now covered by the WaveSurfer 3000 on the lower end and the WaveSurfer 10 at the upper end.Quote4-channel scopes seems to be the fashion now so the 2-channel ones are sold away since nobody wants them?
Well, these scopes are usually bought as debugging scopes for complex tasks, and that very often requires more than 2 channels. Hence the majority of scopes are sold in 4ch variant, and the 2ch versions attract a lot less interest.
Which, if you can live with two channels, pretty much allows you to get one at a bargain price (if you can find a 2ch one)QuoteThe black box arrived today and I had time to play a bit. Everything ok so far but a few observations:
- appears brand new. maybe I can check hardware dates etc. (MFG 2013-JUN on the back) but at least it looks and feels like new-from-factory. manuals, cal-certs etc included.
It might well be new, or a demo scope. Usually scopes that young don't come back from the customer so it very likely never really left LeCroy before you bought it.Quote- it runs quite hot, with loud fans, I guess there's an old CPU in there that runs XP? (or is it the scope ADCs and ASICS that run hot?). Has anyone compared noise and heat to the newer 3000-series?
The heat comes from the two 5Ghz ADC hybrids (LeCroy doesn't use ASICs do do their waveform processing as scopes from other brands do). The CPU is a Core 2 Duo but it's heat is negligible compared to the ADC hybrids.
The WS3000 runs a lot cooler and more silent, but then it uses COTS 2GSa/s ADCs and a low power embedded platform (IIRC ARM or MIPS), which put out a lot less heat.Quote- it clickety-cliks relays quite a lot and says "Calibrating.." quite a lot. I hope this is just during warmup?
Yes and no. The calibration runs everytime after you change the vertical setting over a certain amount, it also runs from time to time to temperature-compensate the ADCs (although these calibrations appear less often if the scope is warmed up and the environmental temperature is stable). Most scopes from other manufacturers don't do that, which means they deviate if the scope is used in a different environment than the standard one that was used for the spec sheet. Your scope will maintain its performance specs pretty much throughout the whole operating envelope.
There's a setting to disable auto-calibration so that it does not interrupt a critical measurement.Quote- came with a USB-GPIB dongle which might actually find use in controlling other instruments via software on the scope.
Nice! That's actually a not that cheap option. My guess would be that the scope was indeed a demo scope.Quote- passive probes PP024 are only 500MHz while scope is listed as 600MHz... oh well.
That's normal. 500MHz for a passive high Z probe is pretty much stressing it, as they aren't really useful at such high frequencies. You ideally want an active probe (i.e. AP034, can often be found for not much money) or a low-z passive probe.Quote- stupid Q but what's the BNC-connector on the back-side top right? no text on that... and too lazy to pickup manual now..
That's a multi-purpose BNC that can act as a trigger out, a ref clock input and probably more (not sure for the WaveSurfer, though).QuoteIf anyone has ideas for DIY active probes and/or DIY LA (needs software license also?) I could be interested.
As to the LA probes I'd say forget it. These scopes have a L-Bus interface that connects to a brick-size box (MS-250, MS-500) which contains the LA electronics, and the LA probes connect to that brick. It's pretty complex and I doubt it can easily be re-implemented through a DIY solution. Yes, the LA also needs a software license.
I guess you might have more luck hacking options, as they are just software keys. And there are quite a few interesting options available for the WS(M)Xs-B.
You could certainly build your own probes, but frankly when a 1GHz AP34 can often be found below $200 then I'm not sure it's really worth it.QuoteI will probably do a BW test and/or rise-time test at work sometime soon... stay tuned.
Well, considering that the 600Mhz WRXis (which use a similar front end) usually exceed 870MHz (3dB point) I wouldn't be surprised if your scope shows a similar real-life bandwidth. -
Quote from: awallin
So I went and got a WS 62MXs-b from the LeCroy factory refurb-shop at ebay. Where do I sign up for the fanboy club? We need a T-shirt or something!
Wow great news ! I'm still looking for another LeCroy. Can you post details of the site and approx price you paid ? Maybe I'll hire you to get one for me as well :-)
-
I am pretty sure it was this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teledyne-LeCroy-WaveSurfer-62MXs-B-600MHz-5GS-s-2Ch-Oscilloscope-WS-GPIB-/321980705342?Quote from: awallinSo I went and got a WS 62MXs-b from the LeCroy factory refurb-shop at ebay. Where do I sign up for the fanboy club? We need a T-shirt or something!
Wow great news ! I'm still looking for another LeCroy. Can you post details of the site and approx price you paid ? Maybe I'll hire you to get one for me as well :-)
(just a guess, but it matches the timespan) -
I am pretty sure it was this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teledyne-LeCroy-WaveSurfer-62MXs-B-600MHz-5GS-s-2Ch-Oscilloscope-WS-GPIB-/321980705342?Quote from: awallinSo I went and got a WS 62MXs-b from the LeCroy factory refurb-shop at ebay. Where do I sign up for the fanboy club? We need a T-shirt or something!
Wow great news ! I'm still looking for another LeCroy. Can you post details of the site and approx price you paid ? Maybe I'll hire you to get one for me as well :-)
(just a guess, but it matches the timespan)
Yep that's the one. I think there was a WS 3024 listed yesterday for a similar price.. but can't find it now (only a -40% off MSRP bargain though)
LeCroy has feedback from just 40 buyers - so it must be quite new compared to e.g. Keysight's similar operation? When will Tek join in too?
I wouldn't want to be a sales-rep trying to push new test-gear to customers at MSRP these days..