Looking for a replacement general purpose oscilloscope for home use

[joeqsmith]

Looking to replace my general purpose scope with something more modern.  After seeing the post:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/magnova-oscilloscope/   I thought I would toss out what I am looking for.

A few problem with my LeCroy is the poor quality mechanical packaging. I took the dust cover off the WaveMaster a few months back and broke the plastic bezzel. The Waveblunder has a lot of melted plastic inside of it to reinforce  all the areas that cracked.  These are not bouncing around in the back of my truck.  The WaveMaster for example has a very thin area of plastic, right where it broke.  Just poor design and low grade materials.   

Don't get me started on calibration.  You have the trigger set to normal and your waiting for that one event to happen.  The scope is sitting there for 5 minutes doing nothing.  Then, there comes the trigger you have been waiting for...  The scope, well, rather than show you that date, it's going to calibrate.  Your data.... you didn't really want that did you?  Sure you can turn off auto cal... oh wait, you can't...   

100M Ethernet... If the memory is deep, and I want to post process it with a PC, I don't want to wait.  Of course, ideally the scope should do everything internally without a PC connection but I have not seen that yet.

USB...  Sadly there is no getting around how bad USB is and always has been.  I like using the mouse but it's a bad interface to try and use in my lab.....

Outside of these problems, my scope is fairly old. I upgraded it to Windows XP.
 
Using internal math is not very fast.  I want something responsive.

My hope is a modern scope will put my old scope to shame.... 


                            Min     Want
Display Size                10"     14-16"
Display Resolution          1024x768  Maybe higher.   
Touchscreen                 I typically disable this feature and will drive
                            the scope with a mouse and keyboard.
Selectors knobs/switches    What ever is used, it just needs to work.
                            We bought a Siglent Arb with a rotory
                            encoder that skips, reverses direction...
                            This would be a deal breaker.
                            The switch contacts need to last and not get noisy
                            over time.  Like my remote controls that double
                            selects now.
                            My LeCroy has knobs that fall off!  It was a common
                            problem. 

Mechanical construction     This thing needs to be rugged enought to survive
                            I hate plastic parts that crack over time
                            If you require an internal battery, better make
                            it easy to change out!  Don't make me remove 50
                            screws and get my soldering iron out!
                            If your case design is so poor that it places undo
                            stress on the circuit boards, I'm not interested.

Weight                      Not important.  It will live out it's life on a shelf.
Size                        Not too important. Keep the depth under a foot.       
AC power                    Standard USA single phase 110 60Hz.

Interface
Ethernet                    1000BT  Must provide a software interface
                                    specification.  I will most likely be running
                                    it from a PC.

USB                         3-ports Needs to support mouse,keyboard and flash drive
                            Export plots to flash drive.  Various image formats for
                            reporting. 

External monitor port       VGA     HDMI

Internal mass storage       SSD     No mechanical spinning stuff!

Built-in math functions     The more features and complex, the better!!

Built-in decoder functions  SPI, etc,   the more the better

Mixed mode (dedicated digital)      Not required

Trigger                     Edge, missing pulse, glitch.. Min width,
                            max width...
                            the more complex, the better
Trigger Jitter              I doubt this would ever be an issue with a modern
                            scope.   <10ps should be fine..

Channels                            4
Analog Bandwidth @ 50ohms   300     500                      MHz
Coupling                            50ohm DC, 1Meg AC/DC
Connector type              BNC     Need to be able to use standard probes with it.
                                    If propritary interface, needs to include adapters
                                    to support standard probes. 

Input Voltage                       5Vrms@50ohms,  400V@1M
Vertical Resolution         8                                Bits
BW filters                  20M/200M

Memory depth
All channels active         10M     More is better           Data points
Half channels               20M

Single shot sample rate
All channels active         2G      5G                       sps
Half channels                       10G

RIS mode trigger rate       I use this mode typically when looking at
                            ignition signals which can have a very slow
                            trigger rate as well....
                            Current trigger rate is 1,250,000 on my LeCroy

External clock              Would like ability to use an external clock
                            for sampling

Viewing mode update rate    8000                             Waveforms/second
I do make use of their WaveStream mode:
WaveStream Mode - This fast viewing mode provides brightness-
graded intensity with a decay time similar to the action of phosphor
on an analog screen. WaveStream mode operates at up to 10 GS/s
with an update rate up to 8000 waveforms/second for better
capture of higher frequency abnormal events.

[tautech]

Budget will determine what we might recommend.

[ebastler]

Could you please re-post your key requirements and expectations in a font that is actually readable? 
Thanks!

[ycui7]

from what you are asking for and complained about, my recommendation is to take a look at scope listed around $20k-$40k from Keysight (EXR or DSOX series) or LeCroy. but those are not generally meant for home use.

[Fried Chicken]

I'm very happy with my Tektronix 2230, but if I could I would have gotten the 2232 or maybe the 2252?

[tautech]

from what you are asking for and complained about, my recommendation is to take a look at scope listed around $20k-$40k from Keysight (EXR or DSOX series) or LeCroy. but those are not generally meant for home use.

Joe is an advanced user and need be treated as such.

[nctnico]

With these specs an R&S MXO4 is a possible candidate but I assume this one uses decimated data for math like R&S' lower tier oscilloscopes (correct me if I'm wrong). AFAIK Tektronix uses actual data for math (which leads to slower operation). Tektronix MSO4 or MSO5 could be an option but from what I've read these models aren't very responsive to use.

Don't get too hung up on having 1Gbit/s ethernet though; very few scopes can push data out that fast. In fact, there are scopes with 100Mbit/s ethernet which transfer data quicker.

One thing to look out for is that an oscilloscope actually triggers on the slope of an edge contrary to trying to find a single point. The latter will smear out the actual edge (due to noise) leading to a misrepresentation of the signal.

Or stick with Lecroy. From what I've seen Lecroy is rather strong where it comes to math and analysis (albeit being slow). A trick Lecroy uses to speed things up is not to acquire more data than required to fill the width of the screen. OTOH Lecroy's post trigger range is rather limited. Where other manufacturers typically allow over 1 second, Lecroy allows a limited number of divisions. For some types of measurements this can be problematic.

If protocol decoding is used regulary, it could be a good idea to buy a seperate scope for that. Like the R&S RTB2004 or RTM3004. Protocol decoding and working on embedded stuff is where these models really shine and there is not much out there which can compare.

Basically you have the choice between slow software protocol decoding and slow extended math (Lecroy, Tektronix), or hardware protocol decoding and fast math on decimated data (Keysight, R&S). But Keysight doesn't meet your memory requirement.

[KungFuJosh]

The question is, is his budget the SDS7000A or the MXO 5? 5 figures or 6 figures? 😉

[IanB]

In the old days, people used to rent televisions because they were expensive to buy and the technology was changing so quickly.

Strikes me that oscilloscopes in this class should be available to rent or lease too. That way, if you find things you can't live with you are not stuck with it forever. And after 3-4 years when it becomes obsolete you can upgrade it to a different model.

[Martin72]

Lecroy Waverunner 9000....

https://www.teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/waverunner-9000-oscilloscopes/waverunner-9054

We have the 9054, 500Mhz, 20/40GSa/s, MAUI (best UI in my opinion).
Very solid building.
And huge..
Bought it directly by lecroy, saves a lot of money - We´ve paid only 12k€ with serial decoder and PA option.
Comes with intel i5 cpu, 8GB ram, SSD, windows 10 OS.
Speaking of options, you'll be overwhelmed by the wealth of options available for the wr9000, I've never seen anything like it before.

[egonotto]

...

Don't get too hung up on having 1Gbit/s ethernet though; very few scopes can push data out that fast. In fact, there are scopes with 100Mbit/s ethernet which transfer data quicker.

.....

Hello,

with a Micsig MHO3 the LAN connection is very fast. With FTP, a 720 MB file took a good 6 seconds. So over 100 MB/s.

Best regards
egonotto

[nctnico]

...

Don't get too hung up on having 1Gbit/s ethernet though; very few scopes can push data out that fast. In fact, there are scopes with 100Mbit/s ethernet which transfer data quicker.

.....

with a Micsig MHO3 the LAN connection is very fast. With FTP, a 720 MB file took a good 6 seconds. So over 100 MB/s.

egonotto

I assume that is not acquisition data and the acquisition data transfer speed is what counts. As acquisition data typically needs to be converted, the limit is in the processing power and how efficient the conversion has been implemented.

[DaneLaw]

USB  3-ports Needs to support mouse,keyboard and flash drive

Why the kinky font? it's very dull on the greywhite background.
Like an old-school typewriter with an ink belt singing on its last tune but then again putting [B/] in front of courier font for a bold-variant, leaves a lot to be desired.

In regards to USB sockets.. most modern scopes will tolerate multiple input devices from a single USB host socket..
How I use my hybrid scope and when stationary I just attach a cheap USB dongle with all the peripherals.
Tested its single USB socket, with 4 or 5 things attached at once.. mouse, airmouse, keyboard etc. and it had no problems in accepting it all at the same time..

For secondary harddrives/flashdrives, you can encounter that there are two standards.. one for the system OS and one for the scope-app on units that run the scope part as an app if you look to drop data directly onto an external harddrive...
At least the situation I encountered, where the system OS will gladly accept fx 2TB Gen4 PCI NVMe drives (in a 20Gbps TypeC enclosure) through its USB socket, so you get the full 2TB accessible in the secondary system UI, but not in the scope app,  to directly port fx data onto WAV/CSV/BIN..  and seems to be a 32 or 64GB limit and likely also FAT format standard.

[egonotto]

Hello,

I have saved the acquisition data to the internal memory (about 20 GB free) (time is about 20 s) and transferred this file to the PC using FTP. This FTP transfer went with 100 MB/s.

Best regards
egonotto

[tautech]

...

Don't get too hung up on having 1Gbit/s ethernet though; very few scopes can push data out that fast. In fact, there are scopes with 100Mbit/s ethernet which transfer data quicker.

.....

with a Micsig MHO3 the LAN connection is very fast. With FTP, a 720 MB file took a good 6 seconds. So over 100 MB/s.

egonotto

I assume that is not acquisition data and the acquisition data transfer speed is what counts. As acquisition data typically needs to be converted, the limit is in the processing power and how efficient the conversion has been implemented.

This is where a PC based scope might be best for Joe's needs but the 15.6" display 3 GHz 12bit SDS7304A is some $20k whereas the somewhat cheaper 12" display 500 MHz 8bit SDS6054A is just some $8k albeit with only 100M LAN.

Both are on promo with large option bundles cheap.
https://siglentna.com/news-and-events/siglent-promotions/

[nctnico]

A PC based oscilloscope is not a guarantee for fast processing. I have quite a few PC based piece of test equipment which are dog-slow. Even when the software is used on a very modern PC as a standalone application.

[joeqsmith]

Budget will determine what we might recommend.

Well, guess I hadn't really thought about the cost and haven't priced one out in years.   Thinking I could find something below 15 with tax.  Really though, depends on the scope.   

from what you are asking for and complained about, my recommendation is to take a look at scope listed around $20k-$40k from Keysight (EXR or DSOX series) or LeCroy. but those are not generally meant for home use.

Maybe.

Don't get too hung up on having 1Gbit/s ethernet though; very few scopes can push data out that fast. In fact, there are scopes with 100Mbit/s ethernet which transfer data quicker.

I had added a Gbit card to that WaveMaster to attempt to improve the transfer rate.  Discovered some tricks that really helped with that particular scope.   The WaveRunner is stuck at 100Mbit.   Both scopes are very old and I am expecting anything new will out perform them.   

...
Or stick with Lecroy. From what I've seen Lecroy is rather strong where it comes to math and analysis (albeit being slow). A trick Lecroy uses to speed things up is not to acquire more data than required to fill the width of the screen. OTOH Lecroy's post trigger range is rather limited. Where other manufacturers typically allow over 1 second, Lecroy allows a limited number of divisions. For some types of measurements this can be problematic.

I would consider staying with LeCroy, even getting another used one that is less old than mine.  With all the good things I like about the hardware and software (except that stupid autocal), I can't ignore the bad packaging. 

If protocol decoding is used regulary, it could be a good idea to buy a seperate scope for that. Like the R&S RTB2004 or RTM3004. Protocol decoding and working on embedded stuff is where these models really shine and there is not much out there which can compare.

Basically you have the choice between slow software protocol decoding and slow extended math (Lecroy, Tektronix), or hardware protocol decoding and fast math on decimated data (Keysight, R&S). But Keysight doesn't meet your memory requirement.

Decoding on the LeCroy is alright for what it is.  In most cases, I would say good enough for my basic use.

Lecroy Waverunner 9000....
...
Very solid building.
...

 

Yes, something like this, but I just don't trust the solid build quality you mention.   And that calibration warmup software is a real pain when using it at home as I turn it off when not in use and when I turn it on, it hits the ground running.  Hoping newer scope will settle in quicker.   Mine is a space heater.   

[joeqsmith]

...

Don't get too hung up on having 1Gbit/s ethernet though; very few scopes can push data out that fast. In fact, there are scopes with 100Mbit/s ethernet which transfer data quicker.

.....

Hello,

with a Micsig MHO3 the LAN connection is very fast. With FTP, a 720 MB file took a good 6 seconds. So over 100 MB/s.

Best regards
egonotto

That's fast.  The transfer speeds of the WaveMaster are dependent on how fast you sample the data (I am pulling the data down live).  I found if I copy the data to local memory I can offload it much faster but is slows the collection.  Using this method,  I can achieve close to 500Mbps.   It's not great but good enough in most cases (it's much faster than using the internal 100Mbit interface).   Even the 100Mb interface in the WaveRunner isn't a deal breaker.  Here is an 8 year old video I made showing using oversampling with this scope to measure AC line power.   For slow data rates like this, it's fine.   

[joeqsmith]

Looking at the Micsig MHO3, they don't mention the Ethernet connection.  Only USB 3.0 Host、USB Type-C、HDMI、Trigger out.   When you were doing your transfer tests, was this with USB?

I have a Signal Hound SA that uses USB.  It's never really worked right under the best conditions.  If you get it to link (sometimes still requiring the PC to be power cycled) it is normally reliable until you have any sort of common mode noise.....  Then it's the typical USB game.  Ethernet is far more robust.   

***
Before throwing Signal Hound under the bus with their USB interface, it is fast.   I made a sort of review for it where I demonstrate logging data from a cheap hand held meter live.   As much as I like their software, it isn't going to do something like this so we had to roll a simple program to perform the decoding.     

[joeqsmith]

This is where a PC based scope might be best for Joe's needs but the 15.6" display 3 GHz 12bit SDS7304A is some $20k ...

For a general purpose scope, I want something standalone.   I looked at the 7000 series.  It's a bit overkill and I would want many of the options added on.  Didn't total it up but I'm guessing 30 when it's all said and done.  After their business practice of going after their  customers and then playing with that Arb, I was turned off on the brand.   

I'll look around and see if I can find a decent review where someone actually shows something beyond taking it out of the box and showing the probes ....    I'll get back to you with any questions.

[KungFuJosh]

This is where a PC based scope might be best for Joe's needs but the 15.6" display 3 GHz 12bit SDS7304A is some $20k ...

For a general purpose scope, I want something standalone.   I looked at the 7000 series.  It's a bit overkill and I would want many of the options added on.  Didn't total it up but I'm guessing 30 when it's all said and done.  After their business practice of going after their  customers and then playing with that Arb, I was turned off on the brand.   

I'll look around and see if I can find a decent review where someone actually shows something beyond taking it out of the box and showing the probes ....    I'll get back to you with any questions.

They have an option bundle promo until June 30th, and the options in the bundle are free. I dunno if it's all of them or not. I'm pretty sure you could get a loaner of that scope before you purchase to try it out.

[Kosmic]

I'm pretty sure you could get a loaner of that scope before you purchase to try it out.

At 20K$ + I hope so. This is usually what they do with cars of similar value 

[KungFuJosh]

I'm pretty sure you could get a loaner of that scope before you purchase to try it out.

At 20K$ + I hope so. This is usually what they do with cars of similar value 

I've never heard of anybody refusing a test drive...for a car anyway. 😉

[egonotto]

Hello,

the MHO3 has LAN with 1 Gb/s. I use this LAN. I had quite a few problems with the USB connection. The manual does not say how to do this. Finally I found that you have to use the USB-C socket, but that not every cable works.

The MHO3 is probably not yet mature. It looks like there are still errors.

I will get in touch with Micsig. They are very helpful.

I can only achieve the 230,000 wfms/s in segmented mode. Otherwise maximum 40 wfms/s.

I also cannot change the brightness of the waveform.

in https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-micsig-scope-with-knobs-(again)/ I reported on my experience with the MHO3

Best regards
egonotto

[Kosmic]

Looking to replace my general purpose scope with something more modern.  After seeing the post:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/magnova-oscilloscope/   I thought I would toss out what I am looking for.

A few problem with my LeCroy is the poor quality mechanical packaging...

It's probably not what you are looking for, but know that your old Lecroy can probably be upgraded (CPU / RAM / Win7 / Screen / TouchScreen / Firmware). In the end, most of the PC parts are quite standard.

I'm in the middle of that process on a Lecroy WaveRunner 6100 and a WavePro 7300a. It's a lot of fiddling but not super expensive.