Looking for a replacement general purpose oscilloscope for home use

[joeqsmith]

Looking to replace my general purpose scope with something more modern.  After seeing the post:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/magnova-oscilloscope/   I thought I would toss out what I am looking for.

A few problem with my LeCroy is the poor quality mechanical packaging. I took the dust cover off the WaveMaster a few months back and broke the plastic bezzel. The Waveblunder has a lot of melted plastic inside of it to reinforce  all the areas that cracked.  These are not bouncing around in the back of my truck.  The WaveMaster for example has a very thin area of plastic, right where it broke.  Just poor design and low grade materials.   

Don't get me started on calibration.  You have the trigger set to normal and your waiting for that one event to happen.  The scope is sitting there for 5 minutes doing nothing.  Then, there comes the trigger you have been waiting for...  The scope, well, rather than show you that date, it's going to calibrate.  Your data.... you didn't really want that did you?  Sure you can turn off auto cal... oh wait, you can't...   

100M Ethernet... If the memory is deep, and I want to post process it with a PC, I don't want to wait.  Of course, ideally the scope should do everything internally without a PC connection but I have not seen that yet.

USB...  Sadly there is no getting around how bad USB is and always has been.  I like using the mouse but it's a bad interface to try and use in my lab.....

Outside of these problems, my scope is fairly old. I upgraded it to Windows XP.
 
Using internal math is not very fast.  I want something responsive.

My hope is a modern scope will put my old scope to shame.... 


                            Min     Want
Display Size                10"     14-16"
Display Resolution          1024x768  Maybe higher.   
Touchscreen                 I typically disable this feature and will drive
                            the scope with a mouse and keyboard.
Selectors knobs/switches    What ever is used, it just needs to work.
                            We bought a Siglent Arb with a rotory
                            encoder that skips, reverses direction...
                            This would be a deal breaker.
                            The switch contacts need to last and not get noisy
                            over time.  Like my remote controls that double
                            selects now.
                            My LeCroy has knobs that fall off!  It was a common
                            problem. 

Mechanical construction     This thing needs to be rugged enought to survive
                            I hate plastic parts that crack over time
                            If you require an internal battery, better make
                            it easy to change out!  Don't make me remove 50
                            screws and get my soldering iron out!
                            If your case design is so poor that it places undo
                            stress on the circuit boards, I'm not interested.

Weight                      Not important.  It will live out it's life on a shelf.
Size                        Not too important. Keep the depth under a foot.       
AC power                    Standard USA single phase 110 60Hz.

Interface
Ethernet                    1000BT  Must provide a software interface
                                    specification.  I will most likely be running
                                    it from a PC.

USB                         3-ports Needs to support mouse,keyboard and flash drive
                            Export plots to flash drive.  Various image formats for
                            reporting. 

External monitor port       VGA     HDMI

Internal mass storage       SSD     No mechanical spinning stuff!

Built-in math functions     The more features and complex, the better!!

Built-in decoder functions  SPI, etc,   the more the better

Mixed mode (dedicated digital)      Not required

Trigger                     Edge, missing pulse, glitch.. Min width,
                            max width...
                            the more complex, the better
Trigger Jitter              I doubt this would ever be an issue with a modern
                            scope.   <10ps should be fine..

Channels                            4
Analog Bandwidth @ 50ohms   300     500                      MHz
Coupling                            50ohm DC, 1Meg AC/DC
Connector type              BNC     Need to be able to use standard probes with it.
                                    If propritary interface, needs to include adapters
                                    to support standard probes. 

Input Voltage                       5Vrms@50ohms,  400V@1M
Vertical Resolution         8                                Bits
BW filters                  20M/200M

Memory depth
All channels active         10M     More is better           Data points
Half channels               20M

Single shot sample rate
All channels active         2G      5G                       sps
Half channels                       10G

RIS mode trigger rate       I use this mode typically when looking at
                            ignition signals which can have a very slow
                            trigger rate as well....
                            Current trigger rate is 1,250,000 on my LeCroy

External clock              Would like ability to use an external clock
                            for sampling

Viewing mode update rate    8000                             Waveforms/second
I do make use of their WaveStream mode:
WaveStream Mode - This fast viewing mode provides brightness-
graded intensity with a decay time similar to the action of phosphor
on an analog screen. WaveStream mode operates at up to 10 GS/s
with an update rate up to 8000 waveforms/second for better
capture of higher frequency abnormal events.

[tautech]

Budget will determine what we might recommend.

[ebastler]

Could you please re-post your key requirements and expectations in a font that is actually readable? 
Thanks!

[ycui7]

from what you are asking for and complained about, my recommendation is to take a look at scope listed around $20k-$40k from Keysight (EXR or DSOX series) or LeCroy. but those are not generally meant for home use.

[Fried Chicken]

I'm very happy with my Tektronix 2230, but if I could I would have gotten the 2232 or maybe the 2252?

[tautech]

from what you are asking for and complained about, my recommendation is to take a look at scope listed around $20k-$40k from Keysight (EXR or DSOX series) or LeCroy. but those are not generally meant for home use.

Joe is an advanced user and need be treated as such.

[nctnico]

With these specs an R&S MXO4 is a possible candidate but I assume this one uses decimated data for math like R&S' lower tier oscilloscopes (correct me if I'm wrong). AFAIK Tektronix uses actual data for math (which leads to slower operation). Tektronix MSO4 or MSO5 could be an option but from what I've read these models aren't very responsive to use.

Don't get too hung up on having 1Gbit/s ethernet though; very few scopes can push data out that fast. In fact, there are scopes with 100Mbit/s ethernet which transfer data quicker.

One thing to look out for is that an oscilloscope actually triggers on the slope of an edge contrary to trying to find a single point. The latter will smear out the actual edge (due to noise) leading to a misrepresentation of the signal.

Or stick with Lecroy. From what I've seen Lecroy is rather strong where it comes to math and analysis (albeit being slow). A trick Lecroy uses to speed things up is not to acquire more data than required to fill the width of the screen. OTOH Lecroy's post trigger range is rather limited. Where other manufacturers typically allow over 1 second, Lecroy allows a limited number of divisions. For some types of measurements this can be problematic.

If protocol decoding is used regulary, it could be a good idea to buy a seperate scope for that. Like the R&S RTB2004 or RTM3004. Protocol decoding and working on embedded stuff is where these models really shine and there is not much out there which can compare.

Basically you have the choice between slow software protocol decoding and slow extended math (Lecroy, Tektronix), or hardware protocol decoding and fast math on decimated data (Keysight, R&S). But Keysight doesn't meet your memory requirement.

[KungFuJosh]

The question is, is his budget the SDS7000A or the MXO 5? 5 figures or 6 figures? 😉

[IanB]

In the old days, people used to rent televisions because they were expensive to buy and the technology was changing so quickly.

Strikes me that oscilloscopes in this class should be available to rent or lease too. That way, if you find things you can't live with you are not stuck with it forever. And after 3-4 years when it becomes obsolete you can upgrade it to a different model.

[Martin72]

Lecroy Waverunner 9000....

https://www.teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/waverunner-9000-oscilloscopes/waverunner-9054

We have the 9054, 500Mhz, 20/40GSa/s, MAUI (best UI in my opinion).
Very solid building.
And huge..
Bought it directly by lecroy, saves a lot of money - We´ve paid only 12k€ with serial decoder and PA option.
Comes with intel i5 cpu, 8GB ram, SSD, windows 10 OS.
Speaking of options, you'll be overwhelmed by the wealth of options available for the wr9000, I've never seen anything like it before.

[egonotto]

...

Don't get too hung up on having 1Gbit/s ethernet though; very few scopes can push data out that fast. In fact, there are scopes with 100Mbit/s ethernet which transfer data quicker.

.....

Hello,

with a Micsig MHO3 the LAN connection is very fast. With FTP, a 720 MB file took a good 6 seconds. So over 100 MB/s.

Best regards
egonotto

[nctnico]

...

Don't get too hung up on having 1Gbit/s ethernet though; very few scopes can push data out that fast. In fact, there are scopes with 100Mbit/s ethernet which transfer data quicker.

.....

with a Micsig MHO3 the LAN connection is very fast. With FTP, a 720 MB file took a good 6 seconds. So over 100 MB/s.

egonotto

I assume that is not acquisition data and the acquisition data transfer speed is what counts. As acquisition data typically needs to be converted, the limit is in the processing power and how efficient the conversion has been implemented.

[DaneLaw]

USB  3-ports Needs to support mouse,keyboard and flash drive

Why the kinky font? it's very dull on the greywhite background.
Like an old-school typewriter with an ink belt singing on its last tune but then again putting [B/] in front of courier font for a bold-variant, leaves a lot to be desired.

In regards to USB sockets.. most modern scopes will tolerate multiple input devices from a single USB host socket..
How I use my hybrid scope and when stationary I just attach a cheap USB dongle with all the peripherals.
Tested its single USB socket, with 4 or 5 things attached at once.. mouse, airmouse, keyboard etc. and it had no problems in accepting it all at the same time..

For secondary harddrives/flashdrives, you can encounter that there are two standards.. one for the system OS and one for the scope-app on units that run the scope part as an app if you look to drop data directly onto an external harddrive...
At least the situation I encountered, where the system OS will gladly accept fx 2TB Gen4 PCI NVMe drives (in a 20Gbps TypeC enclosure) through its USB socket, so you get the full 2TB accessible in the secondary system UI, but not in the scope app,  to directly port fx data onto WAV/CSV/BIN..  and seems to be a 32 or 64GB limit and likely also FAT format standard.

[egonotto]

Hello,

I have saved the acquisition data to the internal memory (about 20 GB free) (time is about 20 s) and transferred this file to the PC using FTP. This FTP transfer went with 100 MB/s.

Best regards
egonotto

[tautech]

...

Don't get too hung up on having 1Gbit/s ethernet though; very few scopes can push data out that fast. In fact, there are scopes with 100Mbit/s ethernet which transfer data quicker.

.....

with a Micsig MHO3 the LAN connection is very fast. With FTP, a 720 MB file took a good 6 seconds. So over 100 MB/s.

egonotto

I assume that is not acquisition data and the acquisition data transfer speed is what counts. As acquisition data typically needs to be converted, the limit is in the processing power and how efficient the conversion has been implemented.

This is where a PC based scope might be best for Joe's needs but the 15.6" display 3 GHz 12bit SDS7304A is some $20k whereas the somewhat cheaper 12" display 500 MHz 8bit SDS6054A is just some $8k albeit with only 100M LAN.

Both are on promo with large option bundles cheap.
https://siglentna.com/news-and-events/siglent-promotions/

[nctnico]

A PC based oscilloscope is not a guarantee for fast processing. I have quite a few PC based piece of test equipment which are dog-slow. Even when the software is used on a very modern PC as a standalone application.

[joeqsmith]

Budget will determine what we might recommend.

Well, guess I hadn't really thought about the cost and haven't priced one out in years.   Thinking I could find something below 15 with tax.  Really though, depends on the scope.   

from what you are asking for and complained about, my recommendation is to take a look at scope listed around $20k-$40k from Keysight (EXR or DSOX series) or LeCroy. but those are not generally meant for home use.

Maybe.

Don't get too hung up on having 1Gbit/s ethernet though; very few scopes can push data out that fast. In fact, there are scopes with 100Mbit/s ethernet which transfer data quicker.

I had added a Gbit card to that WaveMaster to attempt to improve the transfer rate.  Discovered some tricks that really helped with that particular scope.   The WaveRunner is stuck at 100Mbit.   Both scopes are very old and I am expecting anything new will out perform them.   

...
Or stick with Lecroy. From what I've seen Lecroy is rather strong where it comes to math and analysis (albeit being slow). A trick Lecroy uses to speed things up is not to acquire more data than required to fill the width of the screen. OTOH Lecroy's post trigger range is rather limited. Where other manufacturers typically allow over 1 second, Lecroy allows a limited number of divisions. For some types of measurements this can be problematic.

I would consider staying with LeCroy, even getting another used one that is less old than mine.  With all the good things I like about the hardware and software (except that stupid autocal), I can't ignore the bad packaging. 

If protocol decoding is used regulary, it could be a good idea to buy a seperate scope for that. Like the R&S RTB2004 or RTM3004. Protocol decoding and working on embedded stuff is where these models really shine and there is not much out there which can compare.

Basically you have the choice between slow software protocol decoding and slow extended math (Lecroy, Tektronix), or hardware protocol decoding and fast math on decimated data (Keysight, R&S). But Keysight doesn't meet your memory requirement.

Decoding on the LeCroy is alright for what it is.  In most cases, I would say good enough for my basic use.

Lecroy Waverunner 9000....
...
Very solid building.
...

 

Yes, something like this, but I just don't trust the solid build quality you mention.   And that calibration warmup software is a real pain when using it at home as I turn it off when not in use and when I turn it on, it hits the ground running.  Hoping newer scope will settle in quicker.   Mine is a space heater.   

[joeqsmith]

...

Don't get too hung up on having 1Gbit/s ethernet though; very few scopes can push data out that fast. In fact, there are scopes with 100Mbit/s ethernet which transfer data quicker.

.....

Hello,

with a Micsig MHO3 the LAN connection is very fast. With FTP, a 720 MB file took a good 6 seconds. So over 100 MB/s.

Best regards
egonotto

That's fast.  The transfer speeds of the WaveMaster are dependent on how fast you sample the data (I am pulling the data down live).  I found if I copy the data to local memory I can offload it much faster but is slows the collection.  Using this method,  I can achieve close to 500Mbps.   It's not great but good enough in most cases (it's much faster than using the internal 100Mbit interface).   Even the 100Mb interface in the WaveRunner isn't a deal breaker.  Here is an 8 year old video I made showing using oversampling with this scope to measure AC line power.   For slow data rates like this, it's fine.   

[joeqsmith]

Looking at the Micsig MHO3, they don't mention the Ethernet connection.  Only USB 3.0 Host、USB Type-C、HDMI、Trigger out.   When you were doing your transfer tests, was this with USB?

I have a Signal Hound SA that uses USB.  It's never really worked right under the best conditions.  If you get it to link (sometimes still requiring the PC to be power cycled) it is normally reliable until you have any sort of common mode noise.....  Then it's the typical USB game.  Ethernet is far more robust.   

***
Before throwing Signal Hound under the bus with their USB interface, it is fast.   I made a sort of review for it where I demonstrate logging data from a cheap hand held meter live.   As much as I like their software, it isn't going to do something like this so we had to roll a simple program to perform the decoding.     

[joeqsmith]

This is where a PC based scope might be best for Joe's needs but the 15.6" display 3 GHz 12bit SDS7304A is some $20k ...

For a general purpose scope, I want something standalone.   I looked at the 7000 series.  It's a bit overkill and I would want many of the options added on.  Didn't total it up but I'm guessing 30 when it's all said and done.  After their business practice of going after their  customers and then playing with that Arb, I was turned off on the brand.   

I'll look around and see if I can find a decent review where someone actually shows something beyond taking it out of the box and showing the probes ....    I'll get back to you with any questions.

[KungFuJosh]

This is where a PC based scope might be best for Joe's needs but the 15.6" display 3 GHz 12bit SDS7304A is some $20k ...

For a general purpose scope, I want something standalone.   I looked at the 7000 series.  It's a bit overkill and I would want many of the options added on.  Didn't total it up but I'm guessing 30 when it's all said and done.  After their business practice of going after their  customers and then playing with that Arb, I was turned off on the brand.   

I'll look around and see if I can find a decent review where someone actually shows something beyond taking it out of the box and showing the probes ....    I'll get back to you with any questions.

They have an option bundle promo until June 30th, and the options in the bundle are free. I dunno if it's all of them or not. I'm pretty sure you could get a loaner of that scope before you purchase to try it out.

[Kosmic]

I'm pretty sure you could get a loaner of that scope before you purchase to try it out.

At 20K$ + I hope so. This is usually what they do with cars of similar value 

[KungFuJosh]

I'm pretty sure you could get a loaner of that scope before you purchase to try it out.

At 20K$ + I hope so. This is usually what they do with cars of similar value 

I've never heard of anybody refusing a test drive...for a car anyway. 😉

[egonotto]

Hello,

the MHO3 has LAN with 1 Gb/s. I use this LAN. I had quite a few problems with the USB connection. The manual does not say how to do this. Finally I found that you have to use the USB-C socket, but that not every cable works.

The MHO3 is probably not yet mature. It looks like there are still errors.

I will get in touch with Micsig. They are very helpful.

I can only achieve the 230,000 wfms/s in segmented mode. Otherwise maximum 40 wfms/s.

I also cannot change the brightness of the waveform.

in https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-micsig-scope-with-knobs-(again)/ I reported on my experience with the MHO3

Best regards
egonotto

[Kosmic]

Looking to replace my general purpose scope with something more modern.  After seeing the post:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/magnova-oscilloscope/   I thought I would toss out what I am looking for.

A few problem with my LeCroy is the poor quality mechanical packaging...

It's probably not what you are looking for, but know that your old Lecroy can probably be upgraded (CPU / RAM / Win7 / Screen / TouchScreen / Firmware). In the end, most of the PC parts are quite standard.

I'm in the middle of that process on a Lecroy WaveRunner 6100 and a WavePro 7300a. It's a lot of fiddling but not super expensive.

[mawyatt]

Joe, you should know better than asking this on here      

Anyway, since you have a LeCroy, and maybe LeCroy Active Probes? Consider a replacement DSO/MSO that supports those expensive Active Probes or offers an adapter for such!!

Siglent has the LPA10 adapter for LeCroy active probes apparently that works with their SDS6000A and the 6000 has a Analysis Bundle Offer which includes some nice features/options.

If you decide to go Siglent's route, get Rob working for you

And don't forget the EEVblog discount at Saelig

Best,

[Antonio90]

Joe, you should know better than asking this on here      

Anyway, since you have a LeCroy, and maybe LeCroy Active Probes? Consider a replacement DSO/MSO that supports those expensive Active Probes or offers an adapter for such!!

Siglent has the LPA10 adapter for LeCroy active probes apparently that works with their SDS6000A and the 6000 has a Analysis Bundle Offer which includes some nice features/options.

If you decide to go Siglent's route, get Rob working for you

And don't forget the EEVblog discount at Saelig

Best,

Well, for good or for ill (probably for good) there aren't that many of us that can talk about scopes with the features requested. I myself haven't even touched any piece of TE sold for over 3K in the last 15 years. I think the question is safe, and I'm actually quite curious. Hoping Joe gets a few on loan and we, in turn, get a few interesting videos. 

[ebastler]

I've never heard of anybody refusing a test drive...for a car anyway. 😉

Scope manufacturers might have reservations in this particular case, if they happen to know how Joe test-drives multimeters. 

[Grandchuck]

eblastler? The grill starter?

[joeqsmith]

...the MHO3 has LAN with 1 Gb/s. I use this LAN. I had quite a few problems with the USB connection. The manual does not say how to do this. Finally I found that you have to use the USB-C socket, but that not every cable works.
...

Thanks for this bit of info.  If you have a running blog where you are posting about your experience with this scope, please provide a link. 

[joeqsmith]

Anyway, since you have a LeCroy, and maybe LeCroy Active Probes? Consider a replacement DSO/MSO that supports those expensive Active Probes or offers an adapter for such!!

Yes, I do have a few different probes and adapters.  I listed the active probes here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/12-ghz-active-probe-project/msg4988716/#msg4988716

I use these with the old WaveMaster and have no plans to retire that scope anytime soon.  Unlike the WavePro 7300a mentioned, the WaveMaster is 50ohm only, really for high speed (at the time) use.   So, really no need to worry about their proprietary interface.  This is why I specifically called out the standard BNC inputs. 

[joeqsmith]

Looking to replace my general purpose scope with something more modern.  After seeing the post:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/magnova-oscilloscope/   I thought I would toss out what I am looking for.

A few problem with my LeCroy is the poor quality mechanical packaging...

It's probably not what you are looking for, but know that your old Lecroy can probably be upgraded (CPU / RAM / Win7 / Screen / TouchScreen / Firmware). In the end, most of the PC parts are quite standard.

I'm in the middle of that process on a Lecroy WaveRunner 6100 and a WavePro 7300a. It's a lot of fiddling but not super expensive.

Normally I would say this is a valid point.  However, the scope I have is old.  I got it used.  It was damaged when I received it.  Factory attempted repairs but were not successful.   Problem resides in the acquisition system, not the PC.  I suspect the cause was two fold.  First, the case design is poor and allows for flexing of the boards.  Then it runs hot.  So the scope had a short life.   My attempts to repair it were somewhat successful.  I've used it for my daily driver for 8 years or so.  But it is starting to act up again and it's not the PC.   

I thought about getting another used, but newer version of the same scope and keeping this thing for parts.  You can find them under 3, in "working" condition with a 5-day warranty.   Problem is, I do not know if they addressed any of the mechanical issues with the newer packaging.  Looking at photos, I have my doubts. 

Rather than dealing with used, I'm looking at getting my second brand new scope in my entire life. 

[joeqsmith]

I've never heard of anybody refusing a test drive...for a car anyway. 😉

Scope manufacturers might have reservations in this particular case, if they happen to know how Joe test-drives multimeters. 

eblastler? The grill starter?

You guys...  

Lets be fair,  while I did actually hit my 5GHz WaveMaster with the grill starter, I knew what I was doing.   

So yeah, maybe I'm not the typical user but consider I've been working as a EE for 40years and I have yet  to damage a scope's front end.   I'm a bit surprised by that myself....

I have seen people damage them on a frequent basis at work.  We do a fair bit with high voltages which certainly increases the risks. 


***
I recently did look at SJL's new scope.  Did a bit more than unbox it and give it a five gold star review.   
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/pocket-sized-6-ghz-1-tss-et-scope/

[joeqsmith]

Looking at the LeCroy HDO6054B-L and noticed they use Windows 10.   I normally wouldn't care but recently I upgraded my modem at home.  No big deal you would think.   Plugged the modem into my desktop PC, set the thing up.  Then connected it on the WAN and went to activate it. They required a direct connection to do this.  As soon as the PC I was using had direct internet connection, the PC was locked.  Locked meaning I could not even bring up task manager.   This went on for basically the entire day while Microsoft had their way with a computer that had not been touched in a few years..   

I run DDWRT and normally all the Windows PC sit behind it.  I wrote some software to parse the Wireshark files and create scripts for DDWRT that basically blocks all traffic to/from Microsoft.   This has allowed me to actually use the PCs.    So, this PC that I used to get the modem setup is only used to stream data to the TV set.   A few days go by and I had some time to relax and watch some TV.  I turn on the PC and Microsoft starts their next updates.  I had forgot to unplug the direct connection.   About a half hour goes by and they are done.  There went the time I was going to relax.   

So I wonder if I had a scope running 10, could I actually ever use it?  Would it be like my PC connected to the TV and spend more time upgrading than actually doing what it's intended use is?   The scope will be on the LAN and could possibly have access to the internet.  Last thing I want it MS messing with my test equipment!   

***
Not finding much out there.  Basically unboxing.  I do like that larger display.   Too bad LeCroy doesn't hang out here.

 

[KungFuJosh]

So I wonder if I had a scope running 10, could I actually ever use it?  Would it be like my PC connected to the TV and spend more time upgrading than actually doing what it's intended use is?   The scope will be on the LAN and could possibly have access to the internet.  Last thing I want it MS messing with my test equipment!   

https://www.windowscentral.com/how-stop-updates-installing-automatically-windows-10

Skip ahead to the regedit part.

[tautech]

Last thing I want it MS messing with my test equipment!   

FYI, Siglent gear uses Linux based OS.

I can certainly arrange for loaners to assess.
We don't have the SDS7000A models but do have a SDS6204A which we can give any feedback if you require any info.

[tautech]

This is where a PC based scope might be best for Joe's needs but the 15.6" display 3 GHz 12bit SDS7304A is some $20k ...

For a general purpose scope, I want something standalone.   I looked at the 7000 series.  It's a bit overkill and I would want many of the options added on.  Didn't total it up but I'm guessing 30 when it's all said and done.  After their business practice of going after their  customers and then playing with that Arb, I was turned off on the brand.   

I'll look around and see if I can find a decent review where someone actually shows something beyond taking it out of the box and showing the probes ....    I'll get back to you with any questions.

They have an option bundle promo until June 30th, and the options in the bundle are free. I dunno if it's all of them or not. I'm pretty sure you could get a loaner of that scope before you purchase to try it out.

https://siglentna.com/news-article/siglent-sds7000a-introduction-promotion/
Not all by quite some margin as many of the advanced analysis options and compliance tests are not in the promo.
SDS7000A-1GPTS
SDS7000A-EJ
SDS7000A-USB2
SDS7000A-CT-USB2
SDS7000A-CT-100BASE-T
SDS7000A-CT-1000BASE-T
SDS7000A-CT-100BASE-T1
SDS7000A-CT-1000BASE-T1

[joeqsmith]

So I wonder if I had a scope running 10, could I actually ever use it?  Would it be like my PC connected to the TV and spend more time upgrading than actually doing what it's intended use is?   The scope will be on the LAN and could possibly have access to the internet.  Last thing I want it MS messing with my test equipment!   

https://www.windowscentral.com/how-stop-updates-installing-automatically-windows-10

Skip ahead to the regedit part.

Article was from 2022 and from my experience, MS does like to change things up.  From the article you linked:

If you experience more problems than benefits during updates, or if you have a good reason to use a device without updates, depending on your edition of Windows 10, you can disable automatic updates using the Settings app or permanently with Group Policy and Registry.

On Windows 10 Pro, the Local Group Policy Editor includes policies to permanently disable automatic updates or change the update settings to choose when patches should be installed on the device.

Now I don't know what version of Windows is supplied in which products, or if MS has changed how the registry works.  This is why I went the route of blocking ALL Microsoft traffic.  The last time I had a similar experience to my modem update, MS upgraded my PC and I noticed more traffic.  Running Wireshark for a few days, I noticed they had added a for more address blocks.  They must hard code this into their updates.   After patching my router scripts, the problem was once again solved.

FYI, Siglent gear uses Linux based OS.

From my own experience, this may be a big plus.  However, I really don't know what the security problems are with LINUX.   The nice thing about my equipment, Windows NT, 2000, XP are so old, no one cares.   

My current scope's screen size is even smaller than the 6000 but I do like those large displays. 

[joeqsmith]

Let's assume Siglent would be willing to send out a loaner of the 7k series loaded up, to some home hobby user.   How long do they typically extend that trial time?  Do they offer time extensions?  Is it possible to get a used one that I could inspect their construction? 

I couldn't find a single review of it.   Are there programming examples available?   Videos showing the transfer speeds and such? 

[KungFuJosh]

The registry has worked the same for ages. Entries change sometimes, but rarely does an established entry change like that.

Linux is typically more secure than Windows. Windows by far has the highest market share, which is why it's also the biggest target for hackers. https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide

[Martin72]

Hi,

I couldn't find a single review of it.

That is not surprising.
The Scope is still fairly new on the market and the price is clearly aimed at corporate customers rather than hobbyists.
In this price range, it is more likely to be manufactured on demand and not stocked on the shelves of dealers.
Therefore, I can only recommend that you contact siglent NA directly with your questions.
In any case, I will be contacting Siglent EU about this soon, as we are still looking for an "official" scope with a bandwidth of at least 2Ghz.
With lecroy at least, such a request was always fruitful, and we were given the models on loan for about 3 weeks.

[tautech]

Let's assume Siglent would be willing to send out a loaner of the 7k series loaded up, to some home hobby user.   How long do they typically extend that trial time?  Do they offer time extensions? 

Option trial time is normally 30 free uses and not ON time related.

For our demo models we can apply for trial time licenses to be reset and receive a single license code for a global reset.

Is it possible to get a used one that I could inspect their construction? 

Unlikely however you could ask.
As yet there is not a service manual available with construction details to inspect.

Are there programming examples available?

From P736 onwards
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2024/03/ProgrammingGuide_EN11F.pdf

[joeqsmith]

Option trial time is normally 30 free uses and not ON time related.

For our demo models we can apply for trial time licenses to be reset and receive a single license code for a global reset.

So 30 power ups?  30 triggers? 

30 power cycles would be fine.  Guessing within a month I would know if its a keeper.   Encoders work?  Don't give me the sob story that I turn them too fast. 

[Martin72]

30 calls.
E.g., once called, one day gone.
Called again at some point, another day gone.

[joeqsmith]

Call? I have no idea what that means?

[tautech]

Option trial time is normally 30 free uses and not ON time related.

For our demo models we can apply for trial time licenses to be reset and receive a single license code for a global reset.

So 30 power ups?  30 triggers? 

30 power cycles would be fine.  Guessing within a month I would know if its a keeper.   Encoders work?  Don't give me the sob story that I turn them too fast.

As mentioned I've never had my hands on 7000A.
Ping member coromonadalix in Canada as he got a trial unit to assess and can give fair feedback on his findings.
 https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/msg5318461/#msg5318461

[tautech]

Call? I have no idea what that means?

User Call of the trial option.

[joeqsmith]

Call? I have no idea what that means?

User Call of the trial option.

Sorry but that's not helpful.  I have no idea what Call means in this context.   

[tautech]

Call? I have no idea what that means?

User Call of the trial option.

Sorry but that's not helpful.  I have no idea what Call means in this context.

Is user Activate more helpful ?

While Trial uses are still available each activation reduces the remaining trial uses until there are no further free uses available when IIRC you are prompted to install a permanent license.

[joeqsmith]

Not really.

When does it ask?  Does it ask when I trigger?  Does it ask when I turn it on, run an FFT?

[Martin72]

Hi,

Assuming you have the options list in your mind's eye, it always shows the remaining time in days, with 30 days as the starting point.
Now you use one of these options, then you have used up a "day" at that moment.
If you remember two weeks later, oh I could try it again, another day is "gone".
Something like that.

[joeqsmith]

Hi,

Assuming you have the options list in your mind's eye, it always shows the remaining time in days, with 30 days as the starting point.
Now you use one of these options, then you have used up a "day" at that moment.
If you remember two weeks later, oh I could try it again, another day is "gone".
Something like that.

So if I am only using the basic package, no options, it will run forever? 

[Martin72]

I would say yes.
I can check tomorrow at work, we have 6 Siglent scopes, three of them for 2 years and have not tried the possible options, so the list should still show 30 days everywhere.
It's different with lecroy:
You can get trial licenses from them, also for 30 days.
But they run immediately as soon as you have installed these keys.

[tautech]

Not really.

When does it ask? 

When trial options have expired and you select one to use.
The list is here P19
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2023/12/SDS7000A_Datasheet_EN01B.pdf

[KungFuJosh]

Not really.

When does it ask?  Does it ask when I trigger?  Does it ask when I turn it on, run an FFT?

I believe they mean you power on the scope, and use a specific function. For example, AWG. You can use the AWG 1000 times before you power off the scope, and that constitutes a single use (1 out of 30).

[egonotto]

Hello,

at least with the SDS2000X HD, the use of one decode option (e.g. SPI even if you already have the license for it) is sufficient to reduce all decode options by one.

Best regards
egonotto

[joeqsmith]

at least with the SDS2000X HD, the use of one decode option (e.g. SPI even if you already have the license for it) is sufficient to reduce all decode options by one.

That's bad if that's the case.   tautech, please verify. 

It's different with lecroy:

With LeCroy, Keysight, Tektronix ... other name companies I have worked with, for business, they just drop it off and we run it for a few weeks and they pick it up.  I've never tried to get a loaner for home hobby use. 

[tautech]

at least with the SDS2000X HD, the use of one decode option (e.g. SPI even if you already have the license for it) is sufficient to reduce all decode options by one.

That's bad if that's the case.   tautech, please verify. 

This should not be the case and I have never seen such as any option trial use is only diminished when that option is used.
We don't have 2kX HD in stock to check only some others but quicker was to search the NA website.
https://siglentna.com/operating-tip/how-to-check-sds2000x-plus-options/
While this ^ is not definitive I believe the below is:
https://siglentna.com/operating-tip/how-to-check-sds5000x-installed-options/

[Harrow]

I believe they mean you power on the scope, and use a specific function. For example, AWG. You can use the AWG 1000 times before you power off the scope, and that constitutes a single use (1 out of 30).

So if you never turn your scope off, you get to use the trial forever?

[tautech]

I believe they mean you power on the scope, and use a specific function. For example, AWG. You can use the AWG 1000 times before you power off the scope, and that constitutes a single use (1 out of 30).

So if you never turn your scope off, you get to use the trial forever?

Yes.
Unlike analyzers that count down the 120hrs system time of trial option use.

[egonotto]

Hello,

I have never used ARINC. And Grandchuck has also confirmed the problem in https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-hd-12bit-(published-for-chinese-domestic-market-only)/950/ Reply #962. In his picture you can see that I2S and ARINC each have 17 left.

Best regards
egonotto

[KungFuJosh]

It appears to be a possible bug on the newer firmware of the 2000X HD. I don't know if it affects other models. I don't have any trial periods on my 2KX+ to test. 😉

[tautech]

It appears to be a possible bug on the newer firmware of the 2000X HD. I don't know if it affects other models. I don't have any trial periods on my 2KX+ to test. 😉

It seems to be.
Just tested ARINC use with 2kX Plus which counts down each usage.
We have tricks to restore to 30 again.....

[KungFuJosh]

It appears to be a possible bug on the newer firmware of the 2000X HD. I don't know if it affects other models. I don't have any trial periods on my 2KX+ to test. 😉

It seems to be.
Just tested ARINC use with 2kX Plus which counts down each usage.
We have tricks to restore to 30 again.....

It seems the addition of the A429 option has confused the license system a little. Somebody probably wasn't careful enough copypastaing the new option license. 😉

[joeqsmith]

This poor guy bought a "working" WaveBlunder.   This is a newer model than mine but very similar.  Starting at 9:20, he starts to pull it apart.  Pay attention to how far it must be pulled down to replace the coin cell.   

[Kosmic]

This poor guy bought a "working" WaveBlunder.   This is a newer model than mine but very similar.  Starting at 9:20, he starts to pull it apart.  Pay attention to how far it must be pulled down to replace the coin cell.   

Kind of remember me when I had to remove the PC motherboard from a Tektronix DPO7054. It's a little less tight inside, but to get the motherboard out you need to remove everything first.

I hope he had some kind of refund from the seller. Finding a replacement motherboard (with pcie/104 and LVDS onboard) is not going to be easy nor cheap.

[nctnico]

This poor guy bought a "working" WaveBlunder.   This is a newer model than mine but very similar.  Starting at 9:20, he starts to pull it apart.  Pay attention to how far it must be pulled down to replace the coin cell.   

Where are the anti-static mat and wristband? Minimum requirements when taking computers and test equipment apart.

Most likely his problem is a contact issue. FR4 boards are sturdy and can take quite a bit of bending. But it is possible the previous owner messed it up doing the SSD upgrade and sold it on.

[joeqsmith]

...
I hope he had some kind of refund from the seller. Finding a replacement motherboard (with pcie/104 and LVDS onboard) is not going to be easy nor cheap.

If I were the seller and saw someone pulling my equipment apart like this with total disregard to basic ESD practices, I would not only reject any claims, but most likely would make a video rant about wannabes.     

Most likely his problem is a contact issue. FR4 boards are sturdy and can take quite a bit of bending. But it is possible the previous owner messed it up doing the SSD upgrade and sold it on.

I had a very similar symptom crop up with my cheapo Diglent ARTY board that I was using to test a scope I was looking at.  Touch the USB and it would take down the PC.  Under the microscope, there was a solder ball down under the connector.  I would have started by inspecting the connectors. 

I would like to have that scope.  Newer MB than my old one.  Guessing much faster.

[Kosmic]

...
I hope he had some kind of refund from the seller. Finding a replacement motherboard (with pcie/104 and LVDS onboard) is not going to be easy nor cheap.

If I were the seller and saw someone pulling my equipment apart like this with total disregard to basic ESD practices, I would not only reject any claims, but most likely would make a video rant about wannabes.     

I was assuming he came to a closure with the seller before digging in. But ... maybe not 

Imagine the reaction of the seller when he receive the returned scope in parts. And the worst is that I'm sure Ebay would side with the buyer.

A similar scope sold for 1675$ 2 days ago on ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/235512623988. I was expecting a lot higher.

[joeqsmith]

Sounds like it may need a new screen but the one picture they show, I didn't notice the defects seller mentions.  Even without any options,  that was a deal, assuming it has no other problems. 

I bought a DMM from a large distributor people use here.  When it arrived, it was pretty obvious some wannabe reviewer had taken it apart and in the process had damaged a cable and lost a screw, then returned it.   

[moerm]

I don't get it, why not just keep the scope you seem to be happy with (minus some issues) and instead of shelling out 15k to 20k for another not-perfect scope (aka compromise) rather spend another 3K or so to get a fully working known to be good (no bent boards and/or chassis, etc.) of the model you have? Yes, I know, slow connectivity and storage, etc. but then, is it really worth north of 10k to you to not have those issues anymore? Plus, going the way I'd choose you'd get to keep your current scope as a well known parts box.

As for screen size my personal take is, oh well, just use a (comparatively cheap) large VGA monitor. Anyway for most of the daily use the kind of small scope screen is good enough and if and when one needs to have a larger display how about a really large one rather than yet another compromise (like 12" vs 8")?

Disclaimer: I have a weak spot for LeCroy scopes and thought long and hard before I decided to go for a Wavepro 960/DDA260 (one of the reasons being that it's not Windows infested). Certainly (probably different from you) not my day to day scope but rather the "big monster" for serious cases and/or > 500 MHz.
Caveat: I seriously doubt that build quality nowadays is better than back then, but yes, unfortunately older LeCroys are known for some weak spots, in particular poor plastics. But then we don't run a show room but a home lab ... Besides, while highly likely 3D-scanning wouldn't be cheap, 3D printing a new front-plate/cover shouldn't be expensive; once scanned selling the 3D print files for a hobbyist-friendly couple of bucks should recover the scanning investment and get you a nice crack-free front-plate.

Finally a quick note re the Siglent option: I like their scopes and don't consider Siglent a brand any worse than say Agilent/keysight/[name of the decade]. In fact I'm very likely to buy a 3000 as my everyday/mid-range analysis scope.
But: I would not (yet) consider their 6000 and 7000 series as a serious option.

Whatever route you choose, please continue your multimeter tests (videos)! I really like them and lot a value them highly.

Friendly regards

[2N3055]

But: I would not (yet) consider their 6000 and 7000 series as a serious option.

Friendly regards

Could you elaborate why, if you are willing to?
What is making you say so?

Thanks and best regards,

Siniša

[Martin72]

I would also be interested in the reasoning behind this.

[moerm]

But: I would not (yet) consider their 6000 and 7000 series as a serious option.

Friendly regards

Could you elaborate why, if you are willing to?
What is making you say so?

Thanks and best regards,

Siniša

Diverse reasons, the main one being that maturity isn't achieved "overnight". With Siglent scopes, I'm talking about the up to 3000 and 5000 series, maturing could be observed and maturity has been reached. That also means and includes practical experience and many details e.g. in, but not limited to production and firmware. But reaching maturity needs time and the experience coming with it.
Also the 80/20 rule plays a major role and that also again translates to time. To put it simply, pretty much any company, and many chinese companies demonstrate that, can design and produce an "80%" scope but it's the remaining 20% that really need time, experience, and major efforts (and money) and one should note that quite a few companies (Owon comes to mind as one example) seem to not even care and to intentionally address and (largely) build for the "80%" market that is, basically kind of nice instruments but with kinks, weaknesses, no or few and late firmware updates, etc.

It's the remaining 20% that make all the difference. With scopes up to 3000/5000 series Siglent IMO has had the time, has gained the experience, and has demonstrated the will to go "the extra mile", in short, became a mature player.
Scopes in the GHz range though is a different breed of beast (also in terms of $$) and while I have no doubt that Siglent will achieve maturity there too I think that one should not underestimate how much time is needed for that.

Also, of course, for a hobby lab the $1000 to $3000 region probably is within range, at least for many, the $10000+ highly likely is not. Plus, reviews and teardowns play a major role in that market and as of now (credible) reviews and good and full teardowns of the high-end series still are rare. To put it bluntly, before I (or most hobbyists) shell out $10000+ (plus active probes which as of now are as few as teardowns and not exactly cheap either) I, at a very minimum want to see some credible reviews from collegues I can take seriously (i.e. e.g. max 1 'lol' per post) and some teardowns.

As I said, I don't have any doubt that Siglent sooner or later will arrive there, but as of now IMO they are not yet really there.
As a side note, that also shows in their active probes. AFAIK a 1 GHz and a 2.5 GHz active probe is all they offer so far (and with very little info/details).

Friendly regards

P.S. What I just wrote also shows in humans and human thinking (or "thinking"). Just one example: IMO for a mature person thinking not just superficially, active probes and >= 1 GHz scopes go hand in hand. After all, what good is a 3 GHz scope without, preferably good and mature probes? LeCroy, for instance, has quite a few mature, "battle proven" active probes and plenty of info on them.

[egonotto]

... With scopes up to 3000/5000 series Siglent IMO has had the time, has gained the experience, and has demonstrated the will to go "the extra mile", in short, became a mature player.
.....

Hello,

do I understand correctly that you consider the SDS3000X HD to be fully developed?

Best regards
egonotto

[KungFuJosh]

Diverse reasons, the main one being that maturity isn't achieved "overnight". With Siglent scopes, I'm talking about the up to 3000 and 5000 series, maturing could be observed and maturity has been reached. That also means and includes practical experience and many details e.g. in, but not limited to production and firmware. But reaching maturity needs time and the experience coming with it.1

Are you under the impression that the 6000 and 7000 series are using a different platform?

[moerm]

... With scopes up to 3000/5000 series Siglent IMO has had the time, has gained the experience, and has demonstrated the will to go "the extra mile", in short, became a mature player.
.....

Hello,

do I understand correctly that you consider the SDS3000X HD to be fully developed?

Best regards
egonotto

Pretty much yes, although obviously with some reservation because pretty much nobody has properly tested the 3000 HD yet. But looking at what Siglent has shown so far in experience and workmanship with up to 500 or so MHz scopes I see no reason to doubt that that scope will turn out to be a fine and mature scope (modulo some initial firmware issues which however seem to be normal nowadays). So I'd know that an early on bought 3000 is highly likely to not be fully mature, but also that Siglent would iron out any kinks pretty soon (Disclosure: it wouldn't be my main everyday scope, so I could afford to allow for a few months to finally reach full maturity. If that were not the case I'd prefer to wait a bit with the purchase).

Also, but that is not an objective fact but only my opinion, Siglent doesn't seem to follow the "just somehow generate revenue" route, but rather seems to aim for being seen as an 'A' brand, based on what I've seen so far. Also (sorry to Rigol fans) unlike Rigol who seems to bet on (supposedly) fancy ASICs, Siglent seems to focus more on actual quality and reliability (plus, of course, features and gadgets like lots of memory, Bode plots, large-ish screens, etc, but hey, to close up to the recognized big players they must offer some attractive differences).

Friendly regards

Diverse reasons, the main one being that maturity isn't achieved "overnight". With Siglent scopes, I'm talking about the up to 3000 and 5000 series, maturing could be observed and maturity has been reached. That also means and includes practical experience and many details e.g. in, but not limited to production and firmware. But reaching maturity needs time and the experience coming with it.1

Are you under the impression that the 6000 and 7000 series are using a different platform?

There are two major factors wrt the answer to your question, a) what exactly do you mean by "platform"? and b) having some halfway concrete knowledge about those series - so I'll pass for the moment.

But generally speaking I'd be somewhat surprised if those scopes were "just" say a 5000 but with way higher bandwidth (faster frontends, ADCs etc.). AFAIC I also see the rather significant price difference as a clear hint. With a 5Gs/s 500 MHz scope you can get away with a significantly cheaper core (FPGA, processors, memory) than when you design a say 15, 20 or even higher Gs/s 2+ GHz scope.
In fact, but warning, this clearly is speculation territory, I'm wondering why Siglent, who has gained a lot of experience in bringing out new scope series, suddenly seems to have quite some problems with the new HD series. My suspicion, and again is speculation territory, is that something that's considered of major, if not vital importance, unexpectedly "came in between" and disturbed the otherwise well oiled cogs of Siglent's machinery. An ASIC could be such a thing (or some problem with it).

I may be utterly wrong but the way I see it, Siglent has - wrt scopes - decided to serve mainly two market segments, namely quality scopes, roughly speaking to the typical < 1 GHz market, and quality scopes at and in particular above 1 GHz, aiming for industry, research etc that is, a quite different clientele. But it's hard to build say 3 (or even higher) GHz scopes with basically the architecture of say, the 2000 series. For that they highly likely want to have their own ASIC, which to target and design smartly isn't exactly easy. My speculation is that they want a "workhorse" that can handle both "families", the up to 500 or 700 or 800 MHz 12-bit scopes as well as the 8-bit high bandwidth scopes. And to put yourself next to Agilent/[whatever current name], LeCroy brands you need a bloody good and fast core.
Finally one should also not forget that "the west" has terrorized (e.g. all sorts of sanctions) China for a long time. If China wants to not only survive but reach and keep an 'A' class place, basically against all odds, they need roughly equivalent TME. I'll put it this way: they increasingly say "thanks no" to western computers and prefer to build and use their own and I guess that the day they say "thanks no" to western TME brands will come too.

Whatever, I trust that Siglent will stay and actually become even more successful and that the 3000 HD, after a relatively short phase of ironing out initial kinks will be a fine scope.

And yes, there's lots of speculation in what I just wrote and I may be utterly wrong and have to eat my hat.

Friendly regards

[KungFuJosh]

I'm wondering why Siglent, who has gained a lot of experience in bringing out new scope series, suddenly seems to have quite some problems with the new HD series. My suspicion, and again is speculation territory, is that something that's considered of major, if not vital importance, unexpectedly "came in between" and disturbed the otherwise well oiled cogs of Siglent's machinery. An ASIC could be such a thing (or some problem with it).

Finally one should also not forget that "the west" has terrorized (e.g. all sorts of sanctions) China for a long time. If China wants to not only survive but reach and keep an 'A' class place, basically against all odds, they need roughly equivalent TME. I'll put it this way: they increasingly say "thanks no" to western computers and prefer to build and use their own and I guess that the day they say "thanks no" to western TME brands will come too.

Whatever, I trust that Siglent will stay and actually become even more successful and that the 3000 HD, after a relatively short phase of ironing out initial kinks will be a fine scope.

And yes, there's lots of speculation in what I just wrote and I may be utterly wrong and have to eat my hat.

Friendly regards

There are no major bugs in the HD series, only some minor bugs, and already most were fixed. Newer bugs were reported and will be fixed in the next firmware update. This isn't special WRT to Siglent or the HD series; it's simply the way it is when new scopes are released from ANY brand. There is no 80/20 release nonsense. It's more like 98/2, but only because the 2 is generally unknowns.

China has also allegedly made plans to remove western tech brands from government use. This is not particularly relevant, as Siglent is not China; they're a company IN China. Keysight and Tektronix are brands in the USA, not actually the USA. This type of speculation is not relevant, and speculation in general serves little use since facts and data over time exist.

Siglent is already an "A brand" and has proven such with both their release of high quality products, and superior support WRT firmware updates and customer service.

All of their modern scopes are essentially using the same platform (soft/firmware). Obviously there is specific things used for each series to support the hardware differences.

Getting back to the point, you think the 3000 series is well matured, beyond the 7000 series. Well, guess what? The 6000 and 7000 series have been out longer and already received updates and support, and will continue to do so as needed. They're simply more mature. The difference is the price point, and that's why you don't see a lot of demo videos or teardowns. Unless I won the lottery and didn't care, I would not be quick to take apart a $20k scope and void the 3-year warranty.

[moerm]

KungFuJosh

Or, in other words, I'm clueless and stupid.

Well you have every right to your own view and I respect that. Time will tell if and if so, how wrong I am.

Friendly regards nevertheless

[KungFuJosh]

KungFuJosh

Or, in other words, I'm clueless and stupid.

Well you have every right to your own view and I respect that. Time will tell if and if so, how wrong I am.

Friendly regards nevertheless

I never said anything like that. Nothing that I said was directed at you, or with ill intent. Don't take it personally if somebody doesn't agree with you. You speculated about something, and I disagreed with your speculation and presented information. It's as simple as that.

[joeqsmith]

I don't get it, why not just keep the scope you seem to be happy with (minus some issues) and instead of shelling out 15k to 20k for another not-perfect scope (aka compromise) rather spend another 3K or so to get a fully working known to be good (no bent boards and/or chassis, etc.) of the model you have? Yes, I know, slow connectivity and storage, etc. but then, is it really worth north of 10k to you to not have those issues anymore? Plus, going the way I'd choose you'd get to keep your current scope as a well known parts box.

That is now plan A.  I had recently posted in the LeCroy user group asking about the SN to get a heads up on swapping parts.   There was a post recently of a much newer WaveBlunder for well under 2, bare bones.  "Working"  That would have been ideal.   It is very possible that new firmware would improve their stupid calibration algorithm.  I have not upgraded mine since acquired.  It's been mentioned a few times about upgrading the CPU.  I had ditched the old hard drive and increased the memory when it first arrived.  CPU according to a past member offers a significant boost.  May be an option but that is going to be old used parts.   

In general I normally purchase things that are worth it to me and only if I can afford them.  This particular scope sees a lot of use and any problems it has eat away at the fun factor. 

Assuming I get another reliable WaveBlunder,  I still plan to procure a brand new scope.  It's a hobby, so not that I have a need for any of it, but I would personally like to see how some of these modern scopes perform. 

[nctnico]

I doubt you'll get rid of the calibration. It is something Lecroys do. I'm on the most recent version for my Wavepro 7k series and it auto-calibrates whenever it wants. It seems to be temperature dependant though. So after a while the calibrations are less frequent. Annoying but I don't use the Wavepro as my daily driver scope so I can live with it.

[joeqsmith]

I'm fine with running autocal to meet performance.  That's no problem.  What I have a problem with is it will not autocal without a trigger.  I couldn't tell you how many times I have setup to trigger on an infrequent condition and when the event finally happens, rather than showing me some possibly uncal'ed data because it drifted a few degrees, it runs it's calibration.  If I am trying to use the scope like this from a cold start, good luck.   For my use where I am only typically needing ballparkish numbers, loosing data even if it does not meet the manufactures stated error is never acceptable.  They provide me with the option to disable the autocal but it doesn't really turn it off.  I am running 7.x.x firmware.  Looks like they are up to 8.x. 

[Kosmic]

If you need a specific Firmware let me know. Got quite a collection from 6.5 to 8.6 all 32bits.

Sadly, most of them were removed from LeCroy website

I'm looking for 64bits firmware at the moment. If anyone has any I would be interested.

[Kosmic]

I doubt you'll get rid of the calibration. It is something Lecroys do. I'm on the most recent version for my Wavepro 7k series and it auto-calibrates whenever it wants. It seems to be temperature dependant though. So after a while the calibrations are less frequent. Annoying but I don't use the Wavepro as my daily driver scope so I can live with it.

On the 7300a you can slow down calibration and disable temperature related calibration. I guess this is not available on all models.

[joeqsmith]

If you need a specific Firmware let me know. Got quite a collection from 6.5 to 8.6 all 32bits.

Sadly, most of them were removed from LeCroy website

I'm looking for 64bits firmware at the moment. If anyone has any I would be interested.

Interesting.  I had tried to download the latest from LeCroy/Teledyne and of course, they want me to create an account.  No big deal, so I follow along.  Then it says I need to wait 2-3 days while they figure out if I am worthy of admittance.   So I wait and wait and wait.....   

I'm fine with the firmware I am running and the only reason I would upgrade is the off chance they improved the autocal.  If you have a change log for the WaveBlunder's firmware and they make mention of it, could you please post that here.  Not the firmware but the change log.   

I'm guessing there could be some sort of legal problem with you distributing their firmware so if I don't have any luck with the proper channels, I'll hit you up with a PM.   Big thanks for the offer!

[joeqsmith]

On the 7300a you can slow down calibration and disable temperature related calibration. I guess this is not available on all models.

Similar to the WaveBlunder.  I leave it on as it does me no good.   Autocal on this scope takes maybe 1 - 3 seconds.  Basically a life time.

I have been using firmware 7.6.1.1.   Guessing this was from 2014, as it appears I archived it.  So if you decide to check the change log, it at least gives you a starting point. 

[Kosmic]

I unfortunately don't have the change log.

[joeqsmith]

No problem.  Thanks for checking.

I first posted about this scope in 2015.  There was some conversation about the SSD.  The Transend has been in there 9 years and counting without a single problem.  That's with a fair amount of use. 

I thought this is where they had recommended the CPU upgrade.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/teledyne-lecroy-waverunner-64xi/

Found it. 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/what-oscilloscope-buy/msg765218/#msg765218

[Kosmic]

I unfortunately don't have the change log.

I found all the release notes on LeCroy website: https://www.teledynelecroy.com/support/techlib/releasenotes.aspx?type=4&cat=1&capid=106&mid=528&smid=659

[joeqsmith]

I unfortunately don't have the change log.

I found all the release notes on LeCroy website: https://www.teledynelecroy.com/support/techlib/releasenotes.aspx?type=4&cat=1&capid=106&mid=528&smid=659

ROFLMAO!!  I need an account to view the change logs.  The Teledyne/LeCroy gods have not deemed me worthy of such privilege.   

[tautech]

AFAIK a 1 GHz and a 2.5 GHz active probe is all they offer so far (and with very little info/details).

You overlooked Siglent's recent inhouse design of 5 GHz differential probes.
https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/probes/active-probes/

They are not listed as accessories for any of the lower BW models other than for the current 3&4 GHz SDS7000A range.....later this year to be expanded to include 6&8 GHz models.

[joeqsmith]

New firmware installed.  Appears to run fine.   I'll let the scope cool overnight and try it with the autocal disabled.   

[moerm]

AFAIK a 1 GHz and a 2.5 GHz active probe is all they offer so far (and with very little info/details).

You overlooked Siglent's recent inhouse design of 5 GHz differential probes.
https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/probes/active-probes/

They are not listed as accessories for any of the lower BW models other than for the current 3&4 GHz SDS7000A range.....later this year to be expanded to include 6&8 GHz models.

Well, I related to what I could find on Siglent's website. But anyway, good news! Thanks.

ROFLMAO!!  I need an account to view the change logs.  The Teledyne/LeCroy gods have not deemed me worthy of such privilege.   

What's to complain about, you low-life who dared to (AFAIK) never buy TME worth millions of $ from them, and who, to make things worse, dared to "infest" many with a "I like LeCroy" virus?!

I'm an example of your "victims". I always took you to be someone who again and again, intentionally or not, showed a LeCroy scope to be something nice and desirable.

On a more serious note: situations like this one are appalling to me. How a largish corporation dares to clearly not give a flying f_ck about a grown up man/customer, no matter whether direct or indirect, who (AFAIK) never uttered anything in any way unfair about them.

One more reason for us to hope and wait for somewhat equivalent alternatives from Siglent and possibly others. And @Siglent, pay attention! There's an important lesson to learn here. Stay the way you are, continue to listen to customers and to treat them well and fair!

[tautech]

AFAIK a 1 GHz and a 2.5 GHz active probe is all they offer so far (and with very little info/details).

You overlooked Siglent's recent inhouse design of 5 GHz differential probes.
https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/probes/active-probes/

They are not listed as accessories for any of the lower BW models other than for the current 3&4 GHz SDS7000A range.....later this year to be expanded to include 6&8 GHz models.

Well, I related to what I could find on Siglent's website. But anyway, good news! Thanks.

Dunno which you looked at but just checked the US, EU, HQ and even the Japanese websites and SAP5000D is listed on all of them as an option for SDS7000A models.

Maybe that Antarctic website you're using is a little outdated ?

[moerm]

AFAIK a 1 GHz and a 2.5 GHz active probe is all they offer so far (and with very little info/details).

You overlooked Siglent's recent inhouse design of 5 GHz differential probes.
https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/probes/active-probes/

They are not listed as accessories for any of the lower BW models other than for the current 3&4 GHz SDS7000A range.....later this year to be expanded to include 6&8 GHz models.

Well, I related to what I could find on Siglent's website. But anyway, good news! Thanks.

Dunno which you looked at but just checked the US, EU, HQ and even the Japanese websites and SAP5000D is listed on all of them as an option for SDS7000A models.

Maybe that Antarctic website you're using is a little outdated ?

Nuh, probably the 6000 series site. I was bothered enough by the fact that I couldn't find "probes" in the "products" selection.

Whatever, I'm pleased that I was wrong on that one and that Siglent has more and faster active probes than I thought.

[joeqsmith]

What's to complain about, you low-life who dared to (AFAIK) never buy TME worth millions of $ from them, and who, to make things worse, dared to "infest" many with a "I like LeCroy" virus?!

I'm an example of your "victims". I always took you to be someone who again and again, intentionally or not, showed a LeCroy scope to be something nice and desirable.

   When I bought the first one, there really was nothing brand new with a decent BW and in my price range.  I was familiar with the brand and bought a used one.  That scope is has many features that you would only find in a high end scope still today.  Then again, there are things a cheap modern scope can do that this scope can't.   Consider math functions were important for physics.  Modern scopes have a lot of digital decoding for example.   

We don't appear to do much in the states and guessing the high end market dried up.  Companies needed to find some way to be profitable.   As they shift their focus to higher volume, lower end test equipment and rebranding, hard to say how it will work out. 

On a more serious note: situations like this one are appalling to me. How a largish corporation dares to clearly not give a flying f_ck about a grown up man/customer, no matter whether direct or indirect, who (AFAIK) never uttered anything in any way unfair about them.

One more reason for us to hope and wait for somewhat equivalent alternatives from Siglent and possibly others. And @Siglent, pay attention! There's an important lesson to learn here. Stay the way you are, continue to listen to customers and to treat them well and fair!

A few years ago, a member here had provided details on how to defeat the licensing with their older X-Stream software.   There were some comments about LeCroy not letting that slide as they still used that software with some of their current products.   And they make money on those licenses.   I suspect at least some of their reluctance to remain more open was due to this little episode.   

[Kosmic]

Teledyne is also probably responsable for their current stance. I tried buying a scope from an Official Teledyne/LeCroy store on ebay and they had me fill a form and wanted company number and everything. They ended up cancelling the sale since my application was refused even though I provided everything they asked. Probably easier to buy from them if you are base in the US.

Anyway, I still like their products 

[joeqsmith]

With the new firmware installed, the autocal behaves the same.   

You can turn off the autocal but it is not sticky.  Once the scope has been power cycled, it will be enabled.   They will store all of the settings as defaults on power down but this function is not included.   My guess is customers would bitch about the inaccuracy.  They may be some INI or registry setting that would overwrite how the autocal works but I have never seen anything published for it.

[tautech]

AFAIK a 1 GHz and a 2.5 GHz active probe is all they offer so far (and with very little info/details).

You overlooked Siglent's recent inhouse design of 5 GHz differential probes.
https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/probes/active-probes/

They are not listed as accessories for any of the lower BW models other than for the current 3&4 GHz SDS7000A range.....later this year to be expanded to include 6&8 GHz models.

Well, I related to what I could find on Siglent's website. But anyway, good news! Thanks.

Dunno which you looked at but just checked the US, EU, HQ and even the Japanese websites and SAP5000D is listed on all of them as an option for SDS7000A models.

Maybe that Antarctic website you're using is a little outdated ?

Nuh, probably the 6000 series site.

Not unexpected the 5 GHz probes are not listed as an accessory for 2 GHz scopes as the 2.5 GHz active probes cover this range.

With the new firmware installed, the autocal behaves the same.   

You can turn off the autocal but it is not sticky.  Once the scope has been power cycled, it will be enabled.   They will store all of the settings as defaults on power down but this function is not included.   My guess is customers would bitch about the inaccuracy.  They may be some INI or registry setting that would overwrite how the autocal works but I have never seen anything published for it.

I'm torn on this one.
Like you I wish for total control and anything not required for a quick measurement need have the functionality to be set to OFF and remain this way after reboot.

The more serious user of course knows an instrument needs to get to temp equilibrium before taking precise measurements but to have LeCroy holding their hand seems a little OTT just so they won't get complaints of system performance when the scope is still cold.

Do you have a User definable Default to change this behaviour with a single button press immediately after boot ?

[nctnico]

With the new firmware installed, the autocal behaves the same.   

You can turn off the autocal but it is not sticky.  Once the scope has been power cycled, it will be enabled.   They will store all of the settings as defaults on power down but this function is not included.   My guess is customers would bitch about the inaccuracy.  They may be some INI or registry setting that would overwrite how the autocal works but I have never seen anything published for it.

In the end Lecroy scopes like these aren't made to be used as daily drivers. These are to be considered data acquisition & signal analyses systems in 1 box for which accuracy and repeatability of measurements matters most. Sure you can use them as an oscilloscope up to some point but there are limits due to the relatively simple architecture (completely seperated acquisition & processing logic) Lecroy used.

[moerm]

What's to complain about, you low-life who dared to (AFAIK) never buy TME worth millions of $ from them, and who, to make things worse, dared to "infest" many with a "I like LeCroy" virus?!

I'm an example of your "victims". I always took you to be someone who again and again, intentionally or not, showed a LeCroy scope to be something nice and desirable.

   When I bought the first one, there really was nothing brand new with a decent BW and in my price range.  I was familiar with the brand and bought a used one.  That scope is has many features that you would only find in a high end scope still today.  Then again, there are things a cheap modern scope can do that this scope can't.   Consider math functions were important for physics.  Modern scopes have a lot of digital decoding for example.   

Similar here plus "the targeted at research" was attractive to me. But frankly, if someone like you isn't worth (to them) to be treated well I have only a GFY! for them.

We don't appear to do much in the states and guessing the high end market dried up.  Companies needed to find some way to be profitable.   As they shift their focus to higher volume, lower end test equipment and rebranding, hard to say how it will work out. 

To the former I don't comment as that would risk to get (or be taken by some as) "political".
Re the latter, frankly, I think they missed that train. Siglent nowadays is a very acceptable alternative and I strongly doubt that your (or my) region will be able to compete with chinese wages and costs.

Sad, I really liked LeCroy until I found out what a__holes they can be (generally are towards "small fish"?).

On a more serious note: situations like this one are appalling to me. How a largish corporation dares to clearly not give a flying f_ck about a grown up man/customer, no matter whether direct or indirect, who (AFAIK) never uttered anything in any way unfair about them.

One more reason for us to hope and wait for somewhat equivalent alternatives from Siglent and possibly others. And @Siglent, pay attention! There's an important lesson to learn here. Stay the way you are, continue to listen to customers and to treat them well and fair!

A few years ago, a member here had provided details on how to defeat the licensing with their older X-Stream software.   There were some comments about LeCroy not letting that slide as they still used that software with some of their current products.   And they make money on those licenses.   I suspect at least some of their reluctance to remain more open was due to this little episode.

They won't like how (certainly not only) I react to that. "I don't give a flying f_ck about your needs and wants" is an attitude not reserved for LeCroy ...

It's simple: Once I own something I can do - and do - with it whatever I please and I happen to like "looking" at code (incl. binary) and I also happen to have a not insignificant amount of expertise in crypto.
As long as I don't sell what I discover they can KMA.

I hope, you somehow get ahold of the firmware you need.

Not unexpected the 5 GHz probes are not listed as an accessory for 2 GHz scopes as the 2.5 GHz active probes cover this range.

Turn it whichever way you want, incl. - probably correctly - assuming that I'm sometimes stupid.
But that won't change the fact that I won't consider Siglent active probes a day earlier then when they have a "probe" section in their "product" main menu.
Although I like Siglent a lot, I really do.

[tautech]

Not unexpected the 5 GHz probes are not listed as an accessory for 2 GHz scopes as the 2.5 GHz active probes cover this range.

Turn it whichever way you want, incl. - probably correctly - assuming that I'm sometimes stupid.

You and me both ! 

But that won't change the fact that I won't consider Siglent active probes a day earlier then when they have a "probe" section in their "product" main menu.

Yep there are some inconsistencies across their websites, the US have an Accessories header but none of their other sites seem to. 
Yet we can drill down and see any accessory is in such a list and then find other products that might not be listed on a product page.
Have a squiz here in the US site:
https://siglentna.com/products/accessories/

Although I like Siglent a lot, I really do.

They've been a darn good company to deal with for our now 11 years with them, not perfect in any way but darn good regardless.

[joeqsmith]

With the new firmware installed, the autocal behaves the same.   

You can turn off the autocal but it is not sticky.  Once the scope has been power cycled, it will be enabled.   They will store all of the settings as defaults on power down but this function is not included.   My guess is customers would bitch about the inaccuracy.  They may be some INI or registry setting that would overwrite how the autocal works but I have never seen anything published for it.

I'm torn on this one.
Like you I wish for total control and anything not required for a quick measurement need have the functionality to be set to OFF and remain this way after reboot.

The more serious user of course knows an instrument needs to get to temp equilibrium before taking precise measurements but to have LeCroy holding their hand seems a little OTT just so they won't get complaints of system performance when the scope is still cold.

Do you have a User definable Default to change this behaviour with a single button press immediately after boot ?

It's a scope and 8-bits at that.  Precise measurements may be a bit of a stretch under the best case.      

As for the single button, not that I am aware of.   You  maneuver to the menu, select a tab, disable the autocal.   Typically, turn the scope on.  Maybe after 10 minutes you set it manually, assuming you remember.   I'm not sure how you could have your cake and eat it too.  I can understand why they chose to make it work this way but I can't understand why they don't offer other options.   It really only comes into play when looking at slow signals and forgetting to disable that feature after power up.   If it had some intelligent mode where if the temperature has changed and there are no trigger events for some time, manually trigger.  Of course then I would be pissed I lost my data I captured on the screen.      

In the end Lecroy scopes like these aren't made to be used as daily drivers. These are to be considered data acquisition & signal analyses systems in 1 box for which accuracy and repeatability of measurements matters most. Sure you can use them as an oscilloscope up to some point but there are limits due to the relatively simple architecture (completely seperated acquisition & processing logic) Lecroy used.

Interesting opinion.  While I consider my WaveMaster to be a bit too specialized for my daily use, not so with the WaveBlunder.   Consider my first scope was an old tube type Dumont.  I doubt it had a MHz BW.   The first brand new scope I  purchased for home was a Hitachi analog with a Z80.  It had some digital readouts on the screen, 4-channel, and a 100MHz BW.  My first real use of a DSO was a large Tektronix mainframe where I worked.  All scopes.  Wouldn't have a use for any of them today.   

os·​cil·​lo·​scope ä-ˈsi-lə-ˌskōp
ə-
: an instrument in which the variations in a fluctuating electrical quantity appear temporarily as a visible wave form on a display screen

Now we could split that down from there but I consider any DSO to include data acquisition & signal analyses.   I suspect the limits you mention are  not something I have a use for, or it is my lack of owning a modern scope making me oblivious to them. 

[nctnico]

The most common oscilloscopes have a tight coupling between the acquisition and generating the visible traces (rendering). This allows for dealing with deep memory in a faster way, doing hardware decoding and rendering acquisitions into traces much faster. The way Keysight has constructed their Megazoom Asic based scopes is the complete opposite of how Lecroy oscilloscopes are setup. You'd say they are both oscilloscopes but they are different like a Philips and Torx screwdriver are different.

[tautech]

With the new firmware installed, the autocal behaves the same.   

You can turn off the autocal but it is not sticky.  Once the scope has been power cycled, it will be enabled.   They will store all of the settings as defaults on power down but this function is not included.   My guess is customers would bitch about the inaccuracy.  They may be some INI or registry setting that would overwrite how the autocal works but I have never seen anything published for it.

I'm torn on this one.
Like you I wish for total control and anything not required for a quick measurement need have the functionality to be set to OFF and remain this way after reboot.

The more serious user of course knows an instrument needs to get to temp equilibrium before taking precise measurements but to have LeCroy holding their hand seems a little OTT just so they won't get complaints of system performance when the scope is still cold.

Do you have a User definable Default to change this behaviour with a single button press immediately after boot ?

It's a scope and 8-bits at that.  Precise measurements may be a bit of a stretch under the best case.      

As for the single button, not that I am aware of.   You  maneuver to the menu, select a tab, disable the autocal.   Typically, turn the scope on.  Maybe after 10 minutes you set it manually, assuming you remember.   I'm not sure how you could have your cake and eat it too.  I can understand why they chose to make it work this way but I can't understand why they don't offer other options.   It really only comes into play when looking at slow signals and forgetting to disable that feature after power up.   If it had some intelligent mode where if the temperature has changed and there are no trigger events for some time, manually trigger.  Of course then I would be pissed I lost my data I captured on the screen.      

How much time does your autocal consume ?

I dug out my SDS6204A of which I was darn sure I could disable the QuickCal but now it seems not. 
@~10m a 2s QuickCal is performed.

[alm]

Not unexpected the 5 GHz probes are not listed as an accessory for 2 GHz scopes as the 2.5 GHz active probes cover this range.

Is the 2.5 GHz figure probe-only bandwidth or bandwidth at the probe tip with a supported scope? If the former, then connecting a probe with 2.5 GHz -3dB bandwidth to a scope with 2 GHz -3 dB bandwidth won't give the full 2 GHz bandwidth, and there is a valid argument for using a higher bandwidth probe to maximize the bandwidth with that scope. For example look at this Agilent 1156/7/8A datasheet where they specify recommend a 1.5 GHz probe for a 1 GHz scope, a 2.5 GHz probe for a 1.5 GHz scope and a 4 GHz probe for a 2.25 GHz scope.

[tautech]

Not unexpected the 5 GHz probes are not listed as an accessory for 2 GHz scopes as the 2.5 GHz active probes cover this range.

Is the 2.5 GHz figure probe-only bandwidth or bandwidth at the probe tip with a supported scope? If the former, then connecting a probe with 2.5 GHz -3dB bandwidth to a scope with 2 GHz -3 dB bandwidth won't give the full 2 GHz bandwidth, and there is a valid argument for using a higher bandwidth probe to maximize the bandwidth with that scope.

Good question yet as always RTFM.
P17
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2021/11/SAP1000_SAP2500_UserManual-EN01A.pdf

[alm]

Good question yet as always RTFM.
P17
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2021/11/SAP1000_SAP2500_UserManual-EN01A.pdf

Unless the F****** manual is misleading. Can you explain, particularly for the SAP1000, how a 1 GHz bandwidth probe on a 1 GHz scope can have a 1 GHz bandwidth at the probe tip, while it should be -6 dB down at 1 GHz by the definition of bandwidth being the -3 dB point? Either the probe-only bandwidth is overly conservative (the minimum guaranteed bandwidth must be well above 1 GHz), or the bandwidth at the probe tip is way optimistic. If the "1 GHz" probe is actually guaranteed to be > 1.5 GHz probe-only, that would be useful information when using the probe with a scope with a wider bandwidth.

[joeqsmith]

How much time does your autocal consume ?

I dug out my SDS6204A of which I was darn sure I could disable the QuickCal but now it seems not. 
@~10m a 2s QuickCal is performed.

...  Autocal on this scope takes maybe 1 - 3 seconds.  Basically a life time.

So there I am, waiting for my illusive event and the scope's temperature/time/whatever has changed and it wants to autocal but is stuck waiting for the trigger, just like I am.   Then it happens, the elusive trigger that both the autocal and me have been waiting on.  The scope starts the autocal.  A second event happens immediately and it is still running the autocal. 

The most common oscilloscopes have a tight coupling between the acquisition and generating the visible traces (rendering). This allows for dealing with deep memory in a faster way, doing hardware decoding and rendering acquisitions into traces much faster. The way Keysight has constructed their Megazoom Asic based scopes is the complete opposite of how Lecroy oscilloscopes are setup. You'd say they are both oscilloscopes but they are different like a Philips and Torx screwdriver are different.

At least its not cars this time.   But yes, I understand your point except I really have nothing to gauge it on.   In other words,  my perspective would be based on 15+ year old tech.  I have no clue as to what LeCroy, Keysight, or any other scope manufactures offer today.   

One page 1, I showed using the WaveBlunder to decode the SPI bus on a radio used in a cheap multi-meter. 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/looking-for-a-replacement-general-purpose-oscilloscope-for-home-use/msg5442182/#msg5442182

That was a pretty clean environment.  Here I showed it sniffing the communications on my bikes, while running.  For my use cases around the house, it's been good enough for most tasks.  I consider it good general purpose scope.  It's just not mechanically very robust and a few other problems.   Maybe a new mid range scope would be better. 
   
https://youtu.be/h9pixcy3GOU

[tautech]

Good question yet as always RTFM.
P17
https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2021/11/SAP1000_SAP2500_UserManual-EN01A.pdf

Unless the F****** manual is misleading. Can you explain, particularly for the SAP1000, how a 1 GHz bandwidth probe on a 1 GHz scope can have a 1 GHz bandwidth at the probe tip, while it should be -6 dB down at 1 GHz by the definition of bandwidth being the -3 dB point? Either the probe-only bandwidth is overly conservative (the minimum guaranteed bandwidth must be well above 1 GHz), or the bandwidth at the probe tip is way optimistic. If the "1 GHz" probe is actually guaranteed to be > 1.5 GHz probe-only, that would be useful information when using the probe with a scope with a wider bandwidth.

Maybe you missed this bit from the Warranted characteristics table:
Bandwidth (with scope) 1 GHz（SDS5104X） 2 GHz（SDS6204A）

[alm]

Maybe you missed this bit from the Warranted characteristics table:
Bandwidth (with scope) 1 GHz（SDS5104X） 2 GHz（SDS6204A）

If you sell scopes, then I think it's important to know that if you have a 1 GHz BW signal generator feeding into a 1 GHz BW probe into a 1 GHz BW scope, then the guaranteed frequency response is -9 dB at 1 GHz, so the -3 dB bandwidth will be substantially less than 1 GHz (about 500 MHz for a classic 1st order Gaussian response). To guarantee -3 dB at 1 GHz all components need to have substantially more than 1 GHz of guaranteed bandwidth. Exactly how much more depends on the shape of the frequency response of each component. You are basically adding up the curves (in dB, multiplying in linear voltage units). If you prefer time domain, then you can also talk about the geometric sum of rise times, but I couldn't find a rise time specification for this probe.

[tautech]

Maybe you missed this bit from the Warranted characteristics table:
Bandwidth (with scope) 1 GHz（SDS5104X） 2 GHz（SDS6204A）

If you sell scopes, then I think it's important to know that if you have a 1 GHz BW signal generator feeding into a 1 GHz BW probe into a 1 GHz BW scope, then the guaranteed frequency response is -9 dB at 1 GHz, so the -3 dB bandwidth will be substantially less than 1 GHz (about 500 MHz for a classic 1st order Gaussian response). To guarantee -3 dB at 1 GHz all components need to have substantially more than 1 GHz of guaranteed bandwidth. Exactly how much more depends on the shape of the frequency response of each component. You are basically adding up the curves (in dB, multiplying in linear voltage units). If you prefer time domain, then you can also talk about the geometric sum of rise times, but I couldn't find a rise time specification for this probe.

You can find some further info on SAP1000 from this post about probe testing:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/probe-into-probes-whats-up/msg4678768/#msg4678768

The measured rise times are all there for you to do some simple maths. 
Not datasheet rise times but actual real measurements !

[Performa01]

I think it's important to know that if you have a 1 GHz BW signal generator feeding into a 1 GHz BW probe into a 1 GHz BW scope, then the guaranteed frequency response is -9 dB at 1 GHz, so the -3 dB bandwidth will be substantially less than 1 GHz (about 500 MHz for a classic 1st order Gaussian response).

Textbook doctrins are far too simplistic to reflect the real world. They don't help much when it comes to practical applications.

It would be more helpful to know that neither a (not bandwidth-limited) wideband oscilloscope frontend nor any oscilloscope probe will actually have a first order gaussian response and any serious levelled signal generator will have an amplitude flatness of <1 dB (0.5 dB if you don't exploit its full requency range).

Back in early 2019, I've measured the system bandwidth of an SAP1000 prototype in combination with a pre-production unit of the SDS5104X (Siglents first GHz-DSO). That resulted in ~1.11 GHz:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2165488/#msg2165488

The bandwidth of the DSO frontend with direct coax connection was only very slightly better at 1.17 GHz and I need to stress that the frequency flatness of my pre-production SDS5000X was not optimal yet and the frontend for the final devices has undergone some redesign.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2430978/#msg2430978

[alm]

Textbook doctrins are far too simplistic to reflect the real world. They don't help much when it comes to practical applications.

Are you saying that in the real world, a probe with 1 Ghz -3 dB bandwidth with a scope with 1 GHz -3dB bandwidth will have 1 GHz system bandwidth? Because that's what the warranted specifications say. Any SAP1000 with a probe-only bandwidth of 1.01 Ghz is considered in spec according to the manual, as is any SDS5104X with 1.01 Ghz bandwidth. Is the roll-off is that sharp that these two together will have at least 1 GHz system bandwidth together? Or does Siglent do DSP correction for these probes?

Back in early 2019, I've measured the system bandwidth of an SAP1000 prototype in combination with a pre-production unit of the SDS5104X (Siglents first GHz-DSO). That resulted in ~1.11 GHz:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2165488/#msg2165488

The bandwidth of the DSO frontend with direct coax connection was only very slightly better at 1.17 GHz and I need to stress that the frequency flatness of my pre-production SDS5000X was not optimal yet and the frontend for the final devices has undergone some redesign.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2430978/#msg2430978

So clearly that particular probe and scope are performing better than advertised. Certainly nice for you as a user, but not something one can consistently rely on, otherwise obviously the manufacturer would have put it in the datasheet.

[KungFuJosh]

So clearly that particular probe and scope are performing better than advertised. Certainly nice for you as a user, but not something one can consistently rely on, otherwise obviously the manufacturer would have put it in the datasheet.

It's actually typical of Siglent to modestly rate their toys.

[2N3055]

I am confused as to what what datasheet/manual you are using.
In manual I just downloaded, Siglent clearly states:

SAP1000
Bandwidth (probe only) >1 GHz
Bandwidth (with scope) 1 GHz（SDS5104X)
 
SAP2500
Bandwidth (probe only) >2.5 GHz
Bandwidth (with scope) 2 GHz（SDS6204A）

So unlike what you are saying, it clearly specifies system BW. And states that probe BW is larger to guarantee system BW.

Like Performa I tested too, but with 1GHz SDS6104H12 and SDS3104xHD.
BW is 1GHz combined.

Same is with their differential active probes.
Their 5GHz SAP5000D is
Bandwidth (Probe only) >5 GHz
Bandwidth (with Oscilloscope) 4GHz（SDS7404A）

I didn't test it myself (yet) but Siglent is, if anything, very conservative with BW specifications.
I will test if I have a chance, but I expect it to match BW specs without problems.
My biggest problem is generating test signal of sufficient amplitude flatness up to 5GHz at this moment.
 

[Performa01]

Are you saying that in the real world, a probe with 1 Ghz -3 dB bandwidth with a scope with 1 GHz -3dB bandwidth will have 1 GHz system bandwidth? Because that's what the warranted specifications say. Any SAP1000 with a probe-only bandwidth of 1.01 Ghz is considered in spec according to the manual, as is any SDS5104X with 1.01 Ghz bandwidth. Is the roll-off is that sharp that these two together will have at least 1 GHz system bandwidth together? Or does Siglent do DSP correction for these probes?

The textbook statement was a general one, because especially passive high impedance probes usually do not behave like a low-pass at all, let alone a first order Gaussian one.

Siglent list their active probes as accessory for certain oscilloscopes and then a 1 GHz probe actually means that you get at least 1 GHz system-bandwidth with that probe in conjunction with the scope(s) it belongs to. And that’s not only true for active probes. I guess this is pretty common - try to measure the system bandwidth of your Keysight or Tek oscilloscope and see how the textbook theory applies (not!) – if you use the industry standard test method, that is.

If on the other hand, you take a random probe, just because it has a high bandwidth rating and looks sexy, and use it with a DSO were the HF-compensation of the probe doesn’t fit, you might actually end up with a performance that is worse than with matching probes that have a lower bandwidth rating.

So clearly that particular probe and scope are performing better than advertised. Certainly nice for you as a user, but not something one can consistently rely on, otherwise obviously the manufacturer would have put it in the datasheet.

Up to this point I’ve never seen any serious T&M-gear that would not exceed its specifications. For lower end devices, this is usually even more pronounced. Have you tried to calculate what bandwidth the SAP1000 would have to have according to the textbook, in order to achieve a system bandwidth of 1.11 GHz when the bandwidth of the DSO itself is 1.17 GHz? You should definitely try this exercise 😉

[alm]

If on the other hand, you take a random probe, just because it has a high bandwidth rating and looks sexy, and use it with a DSO were the HF-compensation of the probe doesn’t fit, you might actually end up with a performance that is worse than with matching probes that have a lower bandwidth rating.

I have certainly used active FET probes on instruments like spectrum analyzers and scopes they may not have been designed for. Both higher and lower bandwidth than the probe. Their output are a standard 50 Ohm, after all. Nothing brand-specific about them other than power supply. Does Siglent do HF compensation (DSP correction) on their 50 Ohm probes in the 1-2 GHz range? I know other brands do it for the high bandwidth 20 GHz+ probes, but I wouldn't expect this to be necessary for a 1 GHz probe.

Up to this point I’ve never seen any serious T&M-gear hat would not exceed its specifications. For lower end devices, this is usually even more pronounced. Have you tried to calculate what bandwidth the SAP1000 would have to have according to the textbook, in order to achieve a system bandwidth of 1.11 GHz when the bandwidth of the DSO itself is 1.17 GHz? You should definitely try this exercise 😉

I'm not complaining about the instrument exceeding its published specifications. That is pretty normal indeed. But the specifications are not consistent with each other. To meet the 1 GHz bandwidth at the probe tip, both scope and probe need to substantially exceed (the definition of substantial depends on the steepness of their response curves) 1 GHz bandwidth on their own. So what if I send the SAP1000 to a cal lab. They probably won't have the exact Siglent scope it was made for, so they might use a network analyzer, or a wider bandwidth Siglent scope, to test the bandwidth. They measure the SAP1000 bandwidth to be slightly above 1 GHz as stated in the data sheet, and declare it meeting its specifications. Yet this may not be enough to guarantee it meeting the 1 GHz at the probe tip spec. I expect an "A-brand" to have their specifications in order, and not written by an intern who failed the signal processing course.

[nctnico]

So clearly that particular probe and scope are performing better than advertised. Certainly nice for you as a user, but not something one can consistently rely on, otherwise obviously the manufacturer would have put it in the datasheet.

It's actually typical of Siglent to modestly rate their toys.

It doesn't matter. Warranted specs are the specification you base the certainty of the measurement results on. If you buy 10 oscilloscopes to use in a production line, you aren't going to measure each of them AND/OR trust they won't get worse over time and temperature due to component temperate, drift and aging.

[pdenisowski]

Up to this point I’ve never seen any serious T&M-gear that would not exceed its specifications. For lower end devices, this is usually even more pronounced.

Agree completely.

[KungFuJosh]

It's actually typical of Siglent to modestly rate their toys.

It doesn't matter. Warranted specs are the specification you base the certainty of the measurement results on. If you buy 10 oscilloscopes to use in a production line, you aren't going to measure each of them AND/OR trust they won't get worse over time and temperature due to component temperate, drift and aging.

Yes, you're right, it doesn't matter because the datasheet clearly states that the probes are independently over spec'd, and meet the stated bandwidth connected to the scopes. 🤷

[Kosmic]

So there I am, waiting for my illusive event and the scope's temperature/time/whatever has changed and it wants to autocal but is stuck waiting for the trigger, just like I am.   Then it happens, the elusive trigger that both the autocal and me have been waiting on.  The scope starts the autocal.  A second event happens immediately and it is still running the autocal. 

Did you try disabling from the service menu ? I was reading the service manual for the WaveRunner 6k series and they have a chapter about autocal. I have no idea if those settings are permanent though.