Looking for my first/last bench multimeter

[Fried Chicken]

Hate to just come in here and post like this; a longtime lurker I guess I should just ask.

Currently have one single multimeter, a handheld Hioki, and it keeps moving around all over the house as needed, including the bench, garage, car, attic, garden wherever.  I need a bench multimeter.

Currently looking at a Keithley 2000 on offer for $300...  Seems like a good price, and except for replacing a few caps it should be good.

But I'm losing mind here.  I've also considered Fluke 8842A, the HP 3478A, the HP/Agilent 34401A.

I currently need continuity, diode, and DCV.  Frankly 4 digits is more than enough, which brings me to my next point:
From what I've gathered, the fluke 8842a is a beast that holds calibration extremely well.  I'm not getting that same confidence out reading about the Keithley 2000, and if it has 6.5 digits, if they're not calibrated, well, it's not 6.5 digits is it.

The HP 3478a looks like a bargain tank, caveat: the batteries on these need replacing, and you have to do that w/o losing power or you lose calibration.  Fine.  Also no display backlight.  Does it beep for continuity?

But at $300 the Keithley seems like a good deal, and has nice-to-have features I might use down the line.  Prior forum posts say the 34401A edges out the Keithley 2000.  I don't know, I've never had a bench multimeter.

Like I said, I want a first/last bench meter.  Rough LCR capabilities would be really nice (the handheld hioki has that), but is an unrealistic expectation.  I don't want any chinesium unit.  No rigol, or siglent, or gw-instek.  I prefer a used quality unit that might need repairs to a new cheap-o.

Appreciate any input - losing my mind here.

[BennoG]

Thes bench meters are less protected against abuse as for example hand held fluke meters.
But the $300 looks nice display seems bright (usually the VFD displays go dimm if the meter has been on for a couple of years 24/7)
I have one over here and it is a perfect meter for on the bench.

If you want better than 0.05% accuracy it needs to be on for at least 1 hour (that is why most laps let them on for 24/7).

Benno

[robert.rozee]

given your comment, "4 digits is more than enough", you may wish to consider a Fluke 37. they seem to be readily available on ebay at around the us$50 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/305355386629) to us$85 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/266657294340) mark. if you are really keen, fill the test-lead storage compartment with cement to ensure it stays on your bench - or pack if full of batteries if you don't want to ever need to change the batteries.

another possible contender is the Fluke 45, although it may take you a while to find one at a sensible price. i recently bought one locally for under us$45 including shipping, so they are out there.

the HP 34401A and Fluke 8842  are far more precision instruments (i also own both), and as Benno suggests correspondingly more fragile. both have VFD displays that will fade with run time - this may be a concern for you.

a 'fun project' would be to take a Fluke 77 and convert it to a bench meter. remote the LCD from the main PCB, turn the PCB 90 degrees and provide an extension shaft for the selector, create a new socket layout, and add a big battery so it will run forever. but then you would have something not too far removed from being a Fluke 37 for a whole lot more effort!


cheers,
rob   :-)

[Fried Chicken]

Good point to look at cheap bench meters.

I see what you mean about the Fluke 45's being expensive, wtf!  The Fluke 37 looks good, but maybe I should just buy a second handheld meter.    It somehow didn't occur to me that the precision meters would bring with them added sensitivity... well maybe to a small extent.

The Keithley 179A looks really nice... but researching more, it looks like it lacks auto-ranging, diode, or continuity.  I guess some things I've started taking for granted, but auto-ranging would be really nice.  Auto AC/DC would also be really nice.

[J-R]

The Fluke 8842A with its VFD and adjustable display rate is amazing at what it does, but it's so limited with regard to functions that it just can't be your first or last bench meter.

Did you actually mean the Keithley 179A?  It's 100% barf.  If you meant the 197A then it's also a poor option with a severely limited feature set.  Insult to injury, current isn't auto-ranging.

The Keithley 2000 and 34401A at least have SOME "modern" features like continuity and frequency.  Otherwise these are relics that I think only make sense if you're needing higher levels of accuracy and precision, and along with that calibration + data...


My go-to suggestion for situations like this is the "Keithley" 2110.  It's actually made in Taiwan by Picotest.  The major positive is that it has a lot of functions and features.  The major negative is the small display.  I think it could be a great first bench DMM, but for sure not your last.


More handhelds is always good idea.  Leave them all around the house so they are always within reach.

[bdunham7]

The 8842A does not have a continuity beeper and in fact it is totally silent--no fan, no beeping, no hum (the transformer is encased in epoxy...).  It is both durable and repairable and an LED display replacement is available.  It is very fast to read and autorange and has high input impedance up to 20V.  However, it only has DCV, ACV, Ohms and a very limited one-shunt current range.  The 2k range doubles as a 2V diode test and it tops out at 20M  for resistance.  They're great to use, but if you only have room for one meter you'd have to think it through.

The 3478A has limited voltage ranges and that display ends up making it less desirable.  It also lacks any extra features.

The 34401A has everything you say you need and is a good choice for an "only" meter.  Note that like most older meters, it lacks a capacitance range.  The only downside is you have to key your way through a very deep menu which you have to memorize or write down in order to access the advanced features.  If you never had trouble setting the clock on your VCR this meter might be for you. If you want one, try to get the best one you can because there are some pretty old and ratty ones out there.  Newer with later firmware is better.

If you don't care about capacitance, don't overlook the Fluke 8808A if you can find a good deal on one.  It is actually quite quick and convenient to use.

[KungFuJosh]

You should see if you can find a used Siglent. I bought the SDM3045X brand new for $400 and upgraded it to the SDM3055X-E. Then I later found the SDM3055 used for $250. They're both excellent, and they should cover all the things you mentioned. If you can find a deal on a used one, go for it. They're still worth it new, especially compared to overpriced/uncalibrated dinosaurs that need repair.

[nctnico]

I agree with not getting an piece of old junk. Old meters typically have small current measurement ranges, hard to read VFD or LCD displays, no capacitance and no continuity beeper.

There is a whole flurry of budget friendly meters out there (Vichy, Uni-t, Owon for example) which don't break the bank and have all the features you need in this day & age.

[Fried Chicken]

I appreciate the suggestinos.  I want an old gold meter.  The Fluke 45 looks like it could be fantastic unit that fulfills all my needs.  Capacitance would be nice, but I'm additionally looking for a dedicated LCR meter.  If it needs work, so be it, the engineering is unmatched.

[bdunham7]

I appreciate the suggestinos.  I want an old gold meter.  The Fluke 45 looks like it could be fantastic unit that fulfills all my needs.  Capacitance would be nice, but I'm additionally looking for a dedicated LCR meter.  If it needs work, so be it, the engineering is unmatched.

Just curious, how/why did you land on the Fluke 45?  What is fantastic about it for you?

[nctnico]

If it needs work, so be it, the engineering is unmatched.

I'd be careful with going down that road. It is easy to be lured into buying something old that is beyond repair and/or severely outdated. In the past I have bought quite a few pieces of test equipment while forgetting I've gotten old myself as well. Then again the Fluke 45 looks like it has been discontinued not so long ago. So if you like the features, make sure to get a relatively young one.

[Fried Chicken]

I appreciate the suggestinos.  I want an old gold meter.  The Fluke 45 looks like it could be fantastic unit that fulfills all my needs.  Capacitance would be nice, but I'm additionally looking for a dedicated LCR meter.  If it needs work, so be it, the engineering is unmatched.

Just curious, how/why did you land on the Fluke 45?  What is fantastic about it for you?

Engineering, long-term durability, long term stability, intuitive UI, open schematics and theory of operation, fast continuity response, ubiquity, low depreciation, simplicity in design, built by the inventor (world's first 2 measurement DMM), 10 amp current measurement (as opposed to two or three), etc...  All good things.

[KungFuJosh]

Engineering, long-term durability, long term stability, intuitive UI, open schematics and theory of operation, fast continuity response, ubiquity, low depreciation, simplicity in design, built by the inventor (world's first 2 measurement DMM), 10 amp current measurement (as opposed to two or three), etc...  All good things.

Those are reasons to collect a thing. If you're looking for a collection piece, cool. If you're looking for a functional & reliable device, modern stuff is better.

Why would I want to buy a brand new 8K OLED TV, when there's a beautiful piece of furniture tube TV from 90 years ago?

[Fried Chicken]

Engineering, long-term durability, long term stability, intuitive UI, open schematics and theory of operation, fast continuity response, ubiquity, low depreciation, simplicity in design, built by the inventor (world's first 2 measurement DMM), 10 amp current measurement (as opposed to two or three), etc...  All good things.

Those are reasons to collect a thing. If you're looking for a collection piece, cool. If you're looking for a functional & reliable device, modern stuff is better.

Why would I want to buy a brand new 8K OLED TV, when there's a beautiful piece of furniture tube TV from 90 years ago?

I have a pioneer kuro and would buy one again.

[zepto]

You should see if you can find a used Siglent. I bought the SDM3045X brand new for $400 and upgraded it to the SDM3055X-E. Then I later found the SDM3055 used for $250. They're both excellent, and they should cover all the things you mentioned. If you can find a deal on a used one, go for it. They're still worth it new, especially compared to overpriced/uncalibrated dinosaurs that need repair.

In the past I have owned:
keithley 192
keithley 2000
keithley 2001
hp 34401a
hp 3455a
hp 3456a
fluke 8505a
yokogawa 2501a
yokogawa 7561/2/3
advantest 7461a
advantest r6871e

I've never spent $400 on a multimeter, let alone a 4.5 digit siglent. There are nice older devices that hobbyists can learn from and maintain.

[J-R]

I can't see the point of the Rigol DMMs in this conversation.  The Siglent SDM3045X at least has the decent screen with the histogram and trend chart and I've suggested it in the past for newbies due to what you get for the price.  It even has Ethernet built in.

The Fluke 45 seems like a very limited relic.  Makes sense if you're collecting.

I would just save up and buy something decent.

[G0HZU]

This is just my opinion, but the Keithley 2000 and 2015 and the Agilent 34401A meters are primarily designed to be used in ATE racks. This is why they have a very basic display and the user interface is a bit clunky from a human factors point of view. These meters really shine when used remotely as they offer fast update rates (when logging data) and all the features are easy to access remotely. Try and do this via the front panel and you either need a lot of patience or you need to know how to navigate the menus efficiently.

The display in the 34401A looks like a display that no one would actually buy to use in a homebrew project because the fonts are so basic and unnatural and cheap looking. The Keithley display uses tiny cheap looking digits that can't easily be read at distance. These meters are also quite long and so they require a fairly deep shelf to sit on. None of this matters if you use the meter remotely because you won't be looking at the display or the front panel interface.

By contrast the old Fluke 45 is easy to use manually and it has a very nice display. My main niggle with the Fluke 45 is that the auto range is very slow, especially when measuring resistance. This could be a dealbreaker for some as it really is very slow in this respect. The logging rate is also quite slow compared to the Keithley and Agilent meters. I don't think my old Fluke 45 has ever been calibrated from new but it still reads 5.000V on a 5V test source that has been checked against a recently calibrated meter. It never seems to change and I've had it for many years.

So my Fluke 45 is the meter I use on my bench and it lives there all the time. There's no way I'd want to use a Keithley 2000/2015 as an everyday bench meter. The display is poor and the user interface is not as nice as the Fluke. I rarely use the Fluke 45 for logging because it only achieves a few readings a second. I'd much rather use a Keithley or Agilent meter for this.

So there is no 'one size fits all answer'.  If you do measure resistance a lot, then I'd avoid the Fluke 45 as it is very slow to auto-range and provide a readout on the display. It's at its best measuring DC and AC voltage and it has an easy to use dB/REL feature when measuring (S+N)/N or when reading the output of sensors with a dB readout.

If you can live with the basic looking fonts of the 34401A it is probably the best all rounder, but these meters are getting quite expensive to buy used. If you buy a Keithley 2000 then make sure the display is still fairly bright as they can fade over time to become very dim.

[Fried Chicken]

If you can live with the basic looking fonts of the 34401A it is probably the best all rounder, but these meters are getting quite expensive to buy used. If you buy a Keithley 2000 then make sure the display is still fairly bright as they can fade over time to become very dim.

How is the 34401A different form the Keithley 2000?

[tautech]

There are several things outdated bench meters can't do:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/cant-test-led-with-hp34401a/

[KungFuJosh]

I've never spent $400 on a multimeter, let alone a 4.5 digit siglent. There are nice older devices that hobbyists can learn from and maintain.

You're welcome to whatever biases you prefer. 😉

My $400 meter is now 5.5 digits, and I'm quite happy with it. And it has a nicer screen and more features than
 anything you listed. Not to say there's anything wrong with you enjoying those, simply that they're not for me.

Both of my Siglent meters can show statistics (easily readable) on screen, and they can be connected over ethernet to my computer and have both datasets tracked.

If I was going to get a Keithley, it would be the DMM6500 or 7510. Or both. That would be nice. 👍

I have projects, and I have tools, and sometimes there's overlap. Sometimes I don't want any overlap.

[bdunham7]

There are several things outdated bench meters can't do:

Sure, but do you need them to? 

https://digitalzakka.com/product/aneng-an999s-19999-counts-true-rms-bluetooth-digital-multimeter-supports-3d-voice-broadcast-function-automatic-range-multimeter-with-alarm-clock-thermometer-without-battery

 

[Fried Chicken]

There are several things outdated bench meters can't do:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/cant-test-led-with-hp34401a/

I can simply use a power supply for that, no?  And measure with a reliable DMM?

[KungFuJosh]

I dunno, the bluetooth speaker and alarm clock seem like useful features. 😉

[Fried Chicken]

I dunno, the bluetooth speaker and alarm clock seem like useful features. 😉

The more important question is, are the bluetooth speaker and alarm clock even worth a damn...

[KungFuJosh]

Certainly not. I believe he was joking, regarding some "modern features" as being silly.