Author Topic: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models  (Read 2606 times)

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Offline salomonanderTopic starter

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Hey there,
Im new to this forum. So hello first off.
I work on analog audio gear - studio equipment to be specific. I used to have a hameg analog scope, that i want to replace. Im not a scope expert at all and so far i used it to simply trace signals. Im not certain what i should aim for in terms of bandwidth, sample rate and memory - as i want to learn to do more with it than just trace. And i wont be able to afford any super high end model. Which would be overkill anyways.

Atm im looking at the R&S RTC1000 and Keysight 1000x. Both are the entry line of scopes. I did attach a link to a comparison of technical specs. And id be very interested on your take. The keysight does offer frequency response analysis - which might be awesome when working on equalizers. The R&S has better FFT resolution. I have never used FFT - so i have no clue how helpful it might be and if resolution matters in my case.

Thanks
Jakob

Comparison:
https://allice.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Rohde-Schwarz-RTC1000-vs-Keysight-1000X-Compeditor-Sheet-Web.pdf


PS: what i really dont like about the r&s is that the screen seems to get deleted in roll mode whenever any adjustment is made. Does anyone know if this has been fixed in a firmware update and if the keysight behaves the same?



 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2024, 04:35:59 pm »
In that price range, you should also consider the Siglent SDS2000X HD series (12 bit), and not too far off is the Magnova scope (made by Batronix in Germany).

I do audio work, both for pro audio gear and guitar amplifiers / fx, and I have the SDS2000X HD. I was also fine with my older Siglents as well.

If you want real audio analyzing better than these scopes offer, take a look at something like the QA403 audio analyzer.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2024, 04:36:46 pm »
PS: what i really dont like about the r&s is that the screen seems to get deleted in roll mode whenever any adjustment is made. Does anyone know if this has been fixed in a firmware update and if the keysight behaves the same?
All proper DSOs delete the trace in roll mode if a setting is changed. This is actually necessary because you will want the trace to be relevant. Any change in settings makes what is on screen already invalid.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline salomonanderTopic starter

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2024, 04:40:04 pm »
PS: what i really dont like about the r&s is that the screen seems to get deleted in roll mode whenever any adjustment is made. Does anyone know if this has been fixed in a firmware update and if the keysight behaves the same?
All proper DSOs delete the trace in roll mode if a setting is changed. This is actually necessary because you will want the trace to be relevant. Any change in settings makes what is on screen already invalid.

And i wasn‘t even aware of that 🤦‍♂️😅 thanks!
 

Offline salomonanderTopic starter

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2024, 04:40:56 pm »
In that price range, you should also consider the Siglent SDS2000X HD series (12 bit), and not too far off is the Magnova scope (made by Batronix in Germany).

I do audio work, both for pro audio gear and guitar amplifiers / fx, and I have the SDS2000X HD. I was also fine with my older Siglents as well.

If you want real audio analyzing better than these scopes offer, take a look at something like the QA403 audio analyzer.

Thanks, since you work in audio. Would both of these scopes work well? I will take a look at the siglent as well.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2024, 04:52:06 pm »
Hey there,
Im new to this forum. So hello first off.
I work on analog audio gear - studio equipment to be specific. I used to have a hameg analog scope, that i want to replace. Im not a scope expert at all and so far i used it to simply trace signals. Im not certain what i should aim for in terms of bandwidth, sample rate and memory - as i want to learn to do more with it than just trace. And i wont be able to afford any super high end model. Which would be overkill anyways.

Atm im looking at the R&S RTC1000 and Keysight 1000x. Both are the entry line of scopes. I did attach a link to a comparison of technical specs. And id be very interested on your take. The keysight does offer frequency response analysis - which might be awesome when working on equalizers. The R&S has better FFT resolution. I have never used FFT - so i have no clue how helpful it might be and if resolution matters in my case.

Thanks
Jakob

Comparison:
https://allice.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Rohde-Schwarz-RTC1000-vs-Keysight-1000X-Compeditor-Sheet-Web.pdf


PS: what i really dont like about the r&s is that the screen seems to get deleted in roll mode whenever any adjustment is made. Does anyone know if this has been fixed in a firmware update and if the keysight behaves the same?


RTC 1000 is very old design goin back to Hameg.Keysight 1000X is little newer but very limited. They are both 8 bit with little screens.There are better choices today for less money, and massively better for same money.

For audio work i would look for something like QuantAsylum.

For the price of Keysight 1204X you can have better scope and QuantAsylum.

I would recommend a bit more research.
Maybe a bit of explanation what does "audio work" means for you.
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2024, 04:53:25 pm »
Be advised though that frequency response on Siglent scopes can be pretty slow compared to others. If you have the budget, I'd take a long look at the R&S RTB2004
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2024, 04:57:05 pm »
In that price range, you should also consider the Siglent SDS2000X HD series (12 bit), and not too far off is the Magnova scope (made by Batronix in Germany).

I do audio work, both for pro audio gear and guitar amplifiers / fx, and I have the SDS2000X HD. I was also fine with my older Siglents as well.

If you want real audio analyzing better than these scopes offer, take a look at something like the QA403 audio analyzer.

Thanks, since you work in audio. Would both of these scopes work well? I will take a look at the siglent as well.

By 'both of these,' do you mean the 2 you listed? If so, probably, but I wouldn't go that route. Paying for a name brand like that (especially when outdated and overpriced) doesn't get you better performance or features, it only gets a more popular name brand.

The R&S I want is the MXO5, and you can find that (when you're lucky) on sale for around $50,000. I have no interest in Keysight whatsoever.

The Siglent is awesome, I enjoy working with it. However, since you're in Germany, you should take a trip to Batronix if you can and check out their new Magnova scope. Batronix also sells Siglent scopes, so you may be able to see both in person.

And don't listen to unsubstantiated claims about brand speed. 🙄

Thanks,
Josh
« Last Edit: October 07, 2024, 04:59:21 pm by KungFuJosh »
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Offline egonotto

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2024, 05:04:02 pm »
Hello,

if you really only need 2 channels, a Siglent SDS802X HD for € 427.21 and a matching Siglent SAG1021I function generator for € 284.41 would be interesting.
 
If you would rather have 4 channels then you can take the Siglent SDS804X HD for € 486.71.

Best regards
egonotto
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2024, 05:09:29 pm »
Be advised though that frequency response on Siglent scopes can be pretty slow compared to others. If you have the budget, I'd take a long look at the R&S RTB2004

To avoid partial information being spread, Siglent's Frequency response also have top class dynamic range and also is industry only simultaneous multi channel.
So you can test a 3-Way active X-over outputs LP, BP and HP all at the same time on same graph, for instance. Or frequency response before tone controls, after and after graphic EQ at the same time.
In which case it is faster and more usefull that doing 3 separate passes and combining data manually.

Like I said, do your own research. Chose what is important to you.
If you need fast, interactive frequency response analysis, no scope will be as fast as audio analyser.

RTB2000 is very fancy, but in it's core basic scope that is expensive.

Being from Germany, if you are close enough and if you can,  go to Electronica next month and visit few manufacturers and try a bit.. Make your list of what you need and ask directly.
It is not that simple. Sometimes you need to pay more because only one scope will do what you need and you have to pay what they ask. Sometimes scope that is 4x less expensive does better job for your use case. Sometimes less expensive scope is more capable. Sometimes people like big brands because it makes them feel like they bought something "better".
To each it's own.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2024, 05:11:03 pm by 2N3055 »
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Offline salomonanderTopic starter

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2024, 06:12:56 pm »
Thanks everybody, keep it coming :)
I do have to mention budged here though. Well below 1500€. I could get the RTC100 with generator new for 750€. Which is why i find it so tempting. The Keysight with generator is 1000€. I really dont want to go much higher than that. Unless you guys say that this budged wont get me anywhere.

I do repair broken studio equipment. Most of it is vintage (60s-80s) but very high quality. Still, most of the time its just tracing a sine wave to find a defective part and working with a multimeter. I do have an old Wandel and Goltermann generator and meter i use for calibrating. So really basic stuff i guess. It would be amazing to get some kind of frequency analysis though - I do want to get an audio analyzer in the future, but i dont have the funds yet.

Oh, and i should mention that i really do hate fans with a passion.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2024, 06:19:07 pm by salomonander »
 

Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2024, 06:19:39 pm »
Thanks everybody, keep it coming :)
I do have to mention budged here though. Well below 1500€. I could get the RTC100 with generator new for 750€. Which is why i find it so tempting. The Keysight with generator is 1000€. I really dont want to go much higher than that. Unless you guys say that this budged wont get me anywhere.

I do repair broken studio equipment. Most of it is vintage (60s-80s) but very high quality. Still, most of the time its just tracing a sine wave to find a defective part and working with a multimeter. Replacing caps, finding broken parts and calibrating. So really basic stuff i guess. It would be amazing to get some kind of frequency analysis though - I do want to get an audio analyzer in the future, but i dont have the funds yet.

If that's your budget, I would look seriously at the Siglent SDS2000X Plus. It's €1,199, and has the 2000 level features but only 2 math channels (instead of 4), and it's 8bit instead of 12bit. It also has a built-in AWG. I would buy that again ten times before looking at the lower models that include 12bit.

Then I would save up a separate budget for the QA403 eventually. It's probably not needed, more of a nice to have. Unless you're impatient, and then it's a must have. 😉
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Online Antonio90

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2024, 06:43:58 pm »
Unless you want a bigger screen, get yourself a DHO800 or an SDS800X-HD. The Siglent has FRA, it is certainly slow, but quite good. You need a Siglent AWG for it to work out of the box, although there are scripts here in the forum to make it interface with other brands' AWGs. Both will set you back around 400-500 bucks, and have low-noise front ends with 12 bit ADCs.

The next step, which would be the 2000X-Plus is already 1500 VAT included. Save the extra cash and buy an AWG, or whatever other instrument you could need.
 

Offline Sorama

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2024, 06:49:24 pm »

If that's your budget, I would look seriously at the Siglent SDS2000X Plus. It's €1,199, and has the 2000 level features but only 2 math channels (instead of 4), and it's 8bit instead of 12bit. It also has a built-in AWG. I would buy that again ten times before looking at the lower models that include 12bit.




The 2000x plus has even 10 bit resolution up to 20 ish MHz.
And a really good input front wrt noise, so good for audio.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2024, 06:54:57 pm by Sorama »
 
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Offline salomonanderTopic starter

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2024, 06:54:06 pm »
Thanks,
the siglent looks interesting. But it being slow kills it for me. And i have read that everywhere so far. Im hardcore adhd and any kind of digital latency drives me mad in milliseconds :) I was not even aware that this might be an issue coming from an analog one. So i really need a super fast interface. Are all siglents like that?
 

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2024, 06:56:36 pm »

If that's your budget, I would look seriously at the Siglent SDS2000X Plus. It's €1,199, and has the 2000 level features but only 2 math channels (instead of 4), and it's 8bit instead of 12bit. It also has a built-in AWG. I would buy that again ten times before looking at the lower models that include 12bit.




The 2000x plus has even 10 bit resolution up to 20 ish MHz.
Correction:

SDS2000X Plus in 10bit mode is 100 MHz capable < all models.
The 100 MHz model -3dB point is ~185 MHz.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 
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Offline Sorama

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2024, 06:57:08 pm »
What exactly are you referring to?
Slow?
 

Offline Sorama

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2024, 06:58:35 pm »

If that's your budget, I would look seriously at the Siglent SDS2000X Plus. It's €1,199, and has the 2000 level features but only 2 math channels (instead of 4), and it's 8bit instead of 12bit. It also has a built-in AWG. I would buy that again ten times before looking at the lower models that include 12bit.




The 2000x plus has even 10 bit resolution up to 20 ish MHz.
Correction:

SDS2000X Plus in 10bit mode is 100 MHz capable < all models.
The 100 MHz model -3dB point is ~185 MHz.

Even beter than I tought it was  :-+
 

Offline salomonanderTopic starter

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2024, 07:00:06 pm »
I dont really know as i have never used a digital one :) But i guess people are talking about the speed of the interface? Opening menus etc… please correct me if im wrong as im really not certain. But any kind of latency in menus would be a nogo for me. I hate how slow this digital age feels - everything has latency :)
This would be way more important to me than specs. I just called my old electronics guru (broadcast guy) and he said 20 Mhz is all i need
« Last Edit: October 07, 2024, 07:02:36 pm by salomonander »
 

Online Antonio90

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2024, 07:02:58 pm »
Thanks,
the siglent looks interesting. But it being slow kills it for me. And i have read that everywhere so far. Im hardcore adhd and any kind of digital latency drives me mad in milliseconds :) I was not even aware that this might be an issue coming from an analog one. So i really need a super fast interface. Are all siglents like that?
I only have hands-on experience with SDS800X-HD, Keysight DSOX1204G and GWInstek GDS1054B. The Siglent is fine, nowhere near as fast as the Keysight, but the KS is higher noise, lower memory, and generally has less features, bar the integrated FG (not AWG).
The Rigol, as seen in video, seems to respond faster. There is no such thing as a lag-free interface down to the millisecond that I know of, although the fastest will indeed be the Keysight.

I don't think DSO manufactures optimize for hardcore ADHD users, so it's kind of hard to recommend many alternatives.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2024, 07:04:37 pm by Antonio90 »
 

Offline salomonanderTopic starter

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2024, 07:05:26 pm »
Thanks Antonio! Thats interesting. Do you know by any chance where the R&S lands in terms of speed?
And may i ask everyone why no one seems to like the R&S? Im just curious and want to learn.
 

Offline Sorama

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2024, 07:07:29 pm »
I have been using a Hameg scope since late eighties and now use a Siglent 2000x plus and Magnova because the Hameg is no longer (RIP).

No issues wrt “slow”. 
 

Online Antonio90

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2024, 07:14:08 pm »
A lot of people love R&S. It is a very reputable manufacturer, and the MXO series are a thing of beauty. The problem is, they are not competitive at the <1500€ price range, and they don't want to.

The RTB2000 would be the closest competitor, and it is a really nice scope. There are a few reviews around youtube, but it is certainly not lag-free. Really, nobody has managed to optimize interface speed and responsiveness as much as Keysight with the Megazoom IV.

The Siglent is more analytical. It's oriented towards a more thoughtful use, with longer captures and later analysis. It doesn't seem to be what you are looking for. I'm very happy with mine, but you will notice hiccups on the captured waveform when diving into menus, the acquisition will visibly stop when moving traces, math and FFT will slow things out, etc. Quite normal, just like every other DSO except, for the most part, the KS Megazoom IV.

Edit: Have a look at youtube reviews. Skip to the reviewers' twiddling of knobs and selection of different modes of operation, and you will get an idea of each oscilloscope's responsiveness. Other than trying a bunch of them out, it's the next best thing. Instant response is a thing of the past, the only manufacturer that kept trying to emulate old CROs was KS.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2024, 07:28:20 pm by Antonio90 »
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2024, 08:35:37 pm »
Thanks,
the siglent looks interesting. But it being slow kills it for me. And i have read that everywhere so far. Im hardcore adhd and any kind of digital latency drives me mad in milliseconds :) I was not even aware that this might be an issue coming from an analog one. So i really need a super fast interface. Are all siglents like that?

That is why I cringe when some people just throw "en passant" comments, without explanation, at innocent bystanders.
It is easy to misunderstood.

On Siglent,  Frequency response plot is slower than that of Keysight at this time. But it is much better on the other hand, because it does averaging and selective frequency detection. Meaning it can get great results with small signals and even with lots of (electric) noise from environment..
Otherwise, all mentioned Siglent scopes are very fast with regards to user experience.
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Offline egonotto

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Re: Looking to buy new scope for audio: R&S vs Keysight entry models
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2024, 10:25:29 pm »
Hello,

for audio applications, a 16-bit PicoScope 4262 could also be of interest.

Best regards
egonotto
 
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