Author Topic: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip  (Read 10125 times)

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Offline smbakerTopic starter

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Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« on: March 04, 2023, 06:29:31 pm »
Recently my favorite xytronic iron failed, and I replaced it with a Hakko 888D (mistake! won't do that again!). It feels to me like the Hakko is is soldering at a much lower temperature than the xytronic did. I'd like to find a way to accurately measure the tip temperature on the Hakko so I can calibrate it. I have a fluke multimeter with a type-k thermocouple. Is holding the thermocouple to the tip of the soldering iron an appropriate technique? I'm using nothing other than hand pressure to press the thermocouple to the tip (holding it several inches back, of course).

Unfortunately, the current xytronic I had been using is kaput so I don't have its data point. But comparing my Hakko to the very first iron I ever owned, a 30-35 year old xytronic, both set to 370C, I'm reading the following:

Old xytronic: 350C
Brand new Hakko: 280C

I also have a seek thermal iphone camera, which while I don't believe is giving me accurate temperatures, but it too is showing the Hakko significantly cooler than the other iron.

Scott
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2023, 06:53:02 pm »
You can use a k-type on the end, and add a bit of solder to help transfer the temp. But it is never really that accurate.

I have played with the "Solder Iron Calibration Unit" things you can buy on ebay and amazon but never used one to test a proper probe.

I always think it is a bit of a joke because if the solder doesn't melt, they just up the temp. It get funnier when asked to measure the temp of a hot air gun.
Motorcyclist, Nerd, and I work in a Calibration Lab :-)
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So everyone is clear, Calibration = Taking Measurement against a known source, Verification = Checking Calibration against Specification, Adjustment = Adjusting the unit to be within specifications.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2023, 07:40:55 pm »
Is holding the thermocouple to the tip of the soldering iron an appropriate technique?

You might have to hang a blob of solder from the tip of the iron and put the thermocouple inside it.  :)

Another trick is to start with a cold iron and hold some 60:40 solder to the tip while it heats up.

Watch the temperature while you do it. What number does it show when the solder melts?

I also have a seek thermal iphone camera, which while I don't believe is giving me accurate temperatures, but it too is showing the Hakko significantly cooler than the other iron.

Turn it up until they both show the same on the camera. That's your data point.

I have one of those Hakkos and I find that trying to change the temperature is such a pain in the ass that I don't bother. I found the point at which my solder melts (using the technique above) and added 50. That's where it stays, I never have any problems.

(Worst user interface ever)
 

Offline timeandfrequency

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2023, 08:32:03 pm »
Hi smbaker,

Such a solder iron temperature tester should be helpful for your purpose.
Another brand
 
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Online wraper

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2023, 08:36:21 pm »
Unfortunately, the current xytronic I had been using is kaput so I don't have its data point. But comparing my Hakko to the very first iron I ever owned, a 30-35 year old xytronic, both set to 370C, I'm reading the following:

Old xytronic: 350C
Brand new Hakko: 280C
Likely you are measuring both incorrectly, it's very easy to get lower than actual reading. Also it's possible that Hakko has correct temperature but Xytronic higher than set. Also where did you buy 888D, are you sure it's genuine?
Quote
Is holding the thermocouple to the tip of the soldering iron an appropriate technique?
Nope, it must be a thin thermocouple inserted into a molten blob of solder.
 

Online pope

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2023, 09:21:36 pm »
Hi smbaker,

Such a solder iron temperature tester should be helpful for your purpose.
Another brand

Do these actually give provide measurements?
 

Online wraper

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2023, 09:25:18 pm »
Hi smbaker,

Such a solder iron temperature tester should be helpful for your purpose.
Another brand

Do these actually give provide measurements?
From what I've seen in reviews of cheap hakko calibrator knockoffs they work fine.
 
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Offline shapirus

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2023, 09:35:00 pm »
Do these actually give provide measurements?
I have the same (that is, looking the same) as the one that the first link points to. The value it displays matches what I measure with Brymen BM869s. Of course it's much more convenient than using a DMM, which is the whole point of getting one of these. DMM is not less accurate, as long as the thermocouple tip is tiny and can be entirely put into a blob of solder on the tip, but the dedicated device is more handy.

I say it's pretty good, and I can't see how such a device, under any brand name, could ever be justified to cost more than $10-$20.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2023, 09:38:29 pm by shapirus »
 
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Online Fungus

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2023, 09:53:16 pm »
Hi smbaker,

Such a solder iron temperature tester should be helpful for your purpose.
Another brand

Oh, you evil, evil person!

You sent me to the French Aliexpress site so now Aliexpress will be in French forever.

(Not as bad as sending me to the Russian site. People who post links to Aliexpress Russia are destined for a special corner of hell)
 
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Online pope

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2023, 09:55:06 pm »
Do these actually give provide measurements?
I have the same (that is, looking the same) as the one that the first link points to. The value it displays matches what I measure with Brymen BM869s. Of course it's much more convenient than using a DMM, which is the whole point of getting one of these. DMM is not less accurate, as long as the thermocouple tip is tiny and can be entirely put into a blob of solder on the tip, but the dedicated device is more handy.

I say it's pretty good, and I can't see how such a device, under any brand name, could ever be justified to cost more than $10-$20.

I also use the 869s to measure the tip but it's a bit of a pain and I s thinking of getting one of these cheapo ones. I'm just not convinced that they can perform well but I might give it a go. Which one do you have?
 

Offline timeandfrequency

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2023, 10:20:41 pm »
Hi Fungus,


Oh, you evil, evil person!

You sent me to the French Aliexpress site so now Aliexpress will be in French forever.

(Not as bad as sending me to the Russian site. People who post links to Aliexpress Russia are destined for a special corner of hell)
I would say this could be a good opportunity to learn a foreign language. But I have to mention that the chinese -> french translations on Aliexpress are often outlandish.
Delete the cookies stored in your navigator. This will revert to the default setting (chinese).
« Last Edit: March 04, 2023, 10:26:52 pm by timeandfrequency »
 

Offline shapirus

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2023, 10:21:04 pm »
(Not as bad as sending me to the Russian site. People who post links to Aliexpress Russia are destined for a special corner of hell)
here you go: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/addon/global-aliexpress/ :)
 

Offline shapirus

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2023, 10:23:55 pm »
I also use the 869s to measure the tip but it's a bit of a pain and I s thinking of getting one of these cheapo ones. I'm just not convinced that they can perform well but I might give it a go. Which one do you have?
I ordered mine here: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32882463397.html

Beware, it uses a 9V battery :). It however works fine with those rechargable ones that have a 2s lithium battery and a charging circuit inside with no dc-dc conversion on the output (just as well as my BM869s btw).
 
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Offline smbakerTopic starter

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2023, 10:27:42 pm »
I purchased the Hakko on Amazon from a third-party distributor who is listed as an official distributor on the Hakko website. So I'm assuming it's legit.

I don't doubt that I could be measuring the temperature inconsistently with the thermocouple. I just watched a Big Clive video where he showed the same thing, having to fuss around with it a lot, getting inconsistent temperatures depending on how and where he touched the thermocouple to the tip. The measurements I reported earlier were taking the maximum of a number of attempts, but that still doesn't guarantee I received a correct result.

I have ordered one of the cheap testers, ought to be here mid next week. Then I'll run some measurements on the new Hakko and the ancient Xytronic and see if I can get consistent measurements. When the pace arrives, I'll measure that too. I also found a replacement heater for the (less ancient) broken Xytronic. I'll repair it and measure that too!

Ultimately though, the reason why I went down this measurement avenue is because something didn't "feel right" when using the new Hakko, and I wanted an objective measurement. There's something amiss. So I'll see if that objective measurement backs up my subjective impression.

Agree on the Hakko having the worst interface of any piece of equipment on my bench. It's worse than programming a 1980's VCR. It's like some bean counter declared "you must reduce the cost of this product by one more nickel" and the engineer replied, "the only way I can shave off another nickel is to eliminate the down button", and the two-button interface was born. Who in their right mind wants to set each digit of the temperature individually?

Scott
« Last Edit: March 04, 2023, 10:34:31 pm by smbaker »
 

Offline timeandfrequency

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2023, 10:46:17 pm »
Hi smbaker,

Sure that if your soldering experience is significantely degraded with the Hakko, there might be a botched temperature calibration or PID parameters between iron and station, or a bad thermal coupling between the heating element, the temp sensor and the tip.

However, the thermal inertia of the soldering tip is also very important, and some brands tent to lessen the amount of metal they use to manufacture a soldering tip.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2023, 11:08:31 pm »
User interface aside, mine solders perfectly.

What's the wattage of your old iron compared to the Hakko? Maybe you're noticing a difference in Wattage. It will be noticeable if you're soldering big stuff and/or thick wires.


 

Offline IanB

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2023, 11:19:55 pm »
I have a Hakko FX-888. Luckily I bought it before they downgraded it to the 888D. I find it solders very well, but one thing I do with all irons is to dispense with the fine conical tip that often comes as standard and replace it with a much bigger flat tip or horseshoe tip. The conical tip will not deliver enough heat unless you are soldering very tiny things.
 

Offline smbakerTopic starter

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2023, 11:58:41 pm »
The old iron was 90 watts, and the new Hakko I believe is 75 watts. So yes there's a decrease in wattage, but I'm also merely soldering DIP IC sockets to a 2-layer board. 75 watts ought to do it. I like the fine conical tip. :)

Miscalibration is a possibility (and could be corrected in software). I'll know next week when the tester arrives.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2023, 12:26:35 am »
The old iron was 90 watts, and the new Hakko I believe is 75 watts. So yes there's a decrease in wattage, but I'm also merely soldering DIP IC sockets to a 2-layer board. 75 watts ought to do it. I like the fine conical tip. :)

Turn it up 10 degrees.  :-//

(The Wattage only kicks in with the thermostat and maybe you're teetering on the temperature brink)

PS: What temperature did you dial? What indicated temperature does the solder melt at? Did you do the cold-start test?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2023, 12:42:15 am by Fungus »
 

Offline DimitriP

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2023, 12:42:37 am »
I have a Hakko FX-888. Luckily I bought it before they downgraded it to the 888D. I find it solders very well, but one thing I do with all irons is to dispense with the fine conical tip that often comes as standard and replace it with a much bigger flat tip or horseshoe tip. The conical tip will not deliver enough heat unless you are soldering very tiny things.

There you go!  :-+
   If three 100  Ohm resistors are connected in parallel, and in series with a 200 Ohm resistor, how many resistors do you have? 
 

Offline sonpul

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2023, 08:24:38 am »
To calibrate the induction soldering station, I use a thermocouple and Brymen and use a PT100 temperature sensor. Both methods give excellent, accurate, similar results. I make measurements in a small drop of solder on a wooden platform.
 

Offline jonpaul

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2023, 04:05:49 pm »
use type K thermocouple #30 AWG Kynar or Téflon jacket.

Must be welded,bead,type.

Allow well tinned tip to stabilize in free,air, horizontal.

Imerse TC bead on to center or tip, add solder, 63/37, eutectic NOT lead,free.

after 60,sec read TC.

Accurate and repeatable

Jon
An Internet Dinosaur...
 

Offline smbakerTopic starter

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2023, 11:51:06 pm »
Okay, I have some results after finally receiving my "soldering iron temperate tester". I purchased one of the knock-offs of the FG-100. This tester is utter rubish. Poor build quality, some difficulty getting repeatable results, and thermocouples that fit loosely in the tester. It's what you expect from a < $20 knockoff. Instead, I switched to jonpaul's method of putting the iron horizontal and immersing the TC bead into a blob of solder on the tip. Doing this I received repeatable reliable measurements.

At 370 degrees:

* Pace with 1/64" conical tip: 354 degrees.
* Hakko with factory (1/16" ?) wedge tip: 350 degrees
* Hakko with aftermarket 1/64" conical tip: 298 degrees

When I started this thread, I probably using the Hakko with that aftermarket tip as I had already set my mind on returning the Hakko. My original intent had been to compare the performance of the factory and aftermarket tips and although I have a Hakko 1/64" factory tip as well, I did not test it, as I did not want to open the package containing the tips.

Scott

 

Offline jonpaul

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2023, 01:49:56 am »
Rebonjour Cher Monsieur SMBaker,

Bravo pour votre efforts thermocouple.

We have had consistent results on solder iron tips,as well as,solder pots,,for both leaded,,and RoHS solder since,15 years.

We used Omega K TC, plugs,and cables, and Keithley and,Fluke types K TC meters.

We calibrated the meters,and TCS with ice,bath and boiling water.

Important to select a thin guage,TC,wire eg,#30AWG, and insulation rated for solder temps like Kynar, Téflon, etc.

DIY TC must be welded or braised.

We get very consistent tip temps.with both old Hakko 926, 936 and our 1992 Metcal SmartHeat SP-200 500 kHz solder stations with Metcal handles and tips.

As we,have several of each  type iron, we have both large,chisel tip and small cone tip irons on the bench.

We use wet sponges to clean off dross and original Hakko and Metcal holders.

Remarkably we,have yet to change a tip in decades....but we are doing bench work perhaps once a month nowadays.....

Hope this mémoire is of interest

Wishing you an absolutely fantastic weekend

Jon

pix one bench Tektronix scopes 7000 plug-ins, Yokogawa digital scope and in background the Hakko and Metcal irons....
An Internet Dinosaur...
 

Offline Arts

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Re: Measuring the temperature of a soldering iron tip
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2023, 01:21:04 am »

Agree on the Hakko having the worst interface of any piece of equipment on my bench. It's worse than programming a 1980's VCR. It's like some bean counter declared "you must reduce the cost of this product by one more nickel" and the engineer replied, "the only way I can shave off another nickel is to eliminate the down button", and the two-button interface was born. Who in their right mind wants to set each digit of the temperature individually?

Yes indeed, I couldn't agree more, it's a horrible system. I have an 888D (genuine) myself, but other than the user interface, I think it's a great little station.

One thing to remember is that if you get your button-pushing wrong, you can end up in calibration mode re-setting everything, thinking you are just changing the temperature. Then, despite what the display says, your tip temperatures will be way off. I know this from personal experience, and it had me chasing my tail for an embarassing amount of time until I figured out what I'd done.

The included instruction manual made no mention of this, and I only found that information when I downloaded the "complete" manual from the Hakko website. I believe (??) you can restore the unit to factory default calibration using that manual.

Cheers,

Art
 


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