Author Topic: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe  (Read 16760 times)

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Offline tomud

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2022, 11:58:40 pm »
I can ship to Germany.
They said a sample will be available at the end of the month.
I don't have a comparatively high bandwidth current probe to compare to though, but can of course check against a series resistor.

Hmm, attractive price, I assume that shipping to Poland would also be possible. Although I need to check what price will come out with all taxes and customs fees.
For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple neat and wrong...
 

Offline electr_peter

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2022, 11:06:42 am »
Price difference makes no sense to me, because B version just has different form factor with same specs.
Look again....
One fits only in micsig scopes, the other(B) is universal for all scopes and got dedicated circuits for it.
Both could be universal if used with proper adapter. Adapter is magnetic and has USB C input for power, but makes the thing a bit long (risk of damaging BNC). I presume that adapter will be available and work the same as with DP750.

However, adapter PA05 is 5V 1A, but required power is 5V 3A. No official adapter is available at this point.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2022, 11:16:57 am by electr_peter »
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2022, 11:18:47 am »
Hi,

Yes but there is no adaptor included and no hint that there will be a adaptor separately offered.
Additional, when I were micsig I would offer only one model instead two, when the one could be used with adaptor for all scopes.
Why having two model lines... :-//
BTW,
Datasheet :

https://www.saelig.com/supplier/micsig/hf-current-probe-catalog-221018-saelig.pdf



Offline Martin72

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2022, 11:57:25 am »
This is the CP6030 from Siglent(Hioki), nearly same looking but more than fourtimes expensive (2070€ without VAT).
Same claimed accuracy of 1%, but, and this may be the pricedifference, +/-1mA in 5A range, +/-10mA in 30A range.(micsig: 10mA/50mA)

Offline Martin72

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2022, 06:44:42 pm »
After request, batronix will offer the probes also and because they´re in germany, I´m probably out... ;)

Offline Martin72

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2022, 10:55:35 pm »
Hi,
To get an idea why the micsigs are highly interesting, four other currentprobes (pic below, don´t get it why the pic in post function still won´t work).
Testec and the "cheap" R&S doesn´t have degaussing function and worse basic accuracy, lower bandwith.
Rigol and the second R&S do have this like the micsig, also the bandwith and the basic accuracy when you look only on the percent (1%).
Rigol needs an additionally supply.

But the main thing is, look at their prices....
Hope, Dave could do a test soon.

Martin


Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2022, 01:54:10 am »
But the main thing is, look at their prices....

That's the kicker. Still I bet a lot of people will say they are expensive.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2022, 12:12:23 am »
Yeah because they don´t know what´s behind I guess.
First the bandwith, 50Mhz or 100Mhz are "outstanding", then the measure principle itself.
For decades you could get this only from tektronix, later from hioki.
Prices between 3000...5000.
The first "cheap" one I knew was from Instrance, I´ve bought it 2yrs ago.
User TopQuark got another one from another "brand".
Problem of the instrance was noise ( not too bad but remarkable) and overshoots.
Now the attempt of micsig...
Knowing their CP2100 probes I have faith in it that they won´t perform too badly.
Let´s see if micsig will do it better than instrance.

Offline Martin72

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2022, 10:15:17 pm »
Anything new here?

Offline jonpaul

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2022, 01:51:36 am »
Bonsoir just saw this interesting thread.

Have acquired, used and tested current probes since 1970s, as SMPS, electronic ballast and consulting.

Used them a lot in debugging,'uch more information than just voltage probes.

Our collection is Tektronix, Yokogawa, and Pearson (passive CT)
ranges up to 100A DC and 1000A AC, with Tektronix matching amplifiers.
Usual test with Tektronix PG506 or PG508 into 50 Ohms term to make 1x or 10x loop.

Issues to check

3 db BW, (not 6 db!) rise time,pulse abberation ( overshoot)
DC offset adjustment,degauss  effectiveness, DC drift with warmup and temperature
CMRR eg with 500V H bridge wire the fast rise on the probed wire will couple into the currency probe
Easy test probe wire with 0 current, drive wire from HV pulse gen or  H bridge,find CMRR of probe.

Cables are reasonable thickness and flexibility on Tek except old P6042.
Any probe requiring power may be specific to an input scheme that's propriétaire.
Scope probe external power sockets are not standardized, eg identical Lemo 4 pin on Tektronix and Yokogawa but 12vs 15 V and different pinout

So,  beware the fragile cores, dropping the probe even 100mm on hard surface can cause hairline cracks.

Would reccomend the vendor send Dave a sample for test and eval BEFORE any qty order.

If one is willing, ship a probe to me ( have USA drop) and I can test and write an evaluation.

Just the ramblings of an old retired EE

Jon
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2022, 06:59:40 am »
Anything new here?

Haven't heard anything.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2022, 11:21:42 pm »
Meilhaus electronics have listed the probes:

https://www.meilhaus.de/en/micsig-cp-hf.htm

1178€ (incl VAT) for the CP503B... :o
And nearly the half for the Non-B version.... ???

And eleshop also:

https://eleshop.de/micsig-cp503b-current-probe.html

Same as Meilhaus, double-price for the "universal" version....

It´s confusing...

Edit: Batronix had told me in November the prices for the probes, I'm afraid they also refer to the non B versions.... :(

When Dave could offer the B-Version for 499, I´ll walk and swim to Australia for getting one at this price..
« Last Edit: December 23, 2022, 11:48:45 pm by Martin72 »
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2023, 10:43:01 pm »
More and more are listing the new probes, partly on stock.
But all got one thing in common, the "universal version" costs double than the UPI version... :'(
For appx 600€ (incl.VAT) I would buy one just for testing, but not for appx 1200... :--

Offline jonpaul

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2023, 11:52:53 am »
For 600..1200 EU you can get a very fine TEK vintage probe with amp.

Check epay for Tektronix current probes

Jon
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Offline JPortici

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2023, 12:20:03 pm »
But the main thing is, look at their prices....

That's the kicker. Still I bet a lot of people will say they are expensive.

people that are used to cheap crap you can "hack"?
 

Offline Fred_47

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2023, 03:04:43 pm »
No, this is the opposite. Not multiple turns to turn a large current proce into a smaller current probe, but a single thicker wire paralleled with a thinner wire that goes through the current probe to turn a small current probe into a bigger current probe. Probaby easier to use say 10 wires of the same diameter and then only clamp one of them, bingo 1:10 probe.

There will be a small additional voltage drop in the wire thru the core because of the probe, that doesn't occur in the bypass conductors. Whether it is large enough to matter is a subject for experimentation.
Caretaker at Fred's home for retired test gear.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2023, 06:13:03 pm »
For 600..1200 EU you can get a very fine TEK vintage probe with amp.

Check epay for Tektronix current probes

Jon

Yes and I also have one because is still unbeaten in terms of performance, apart from the very expensive current probes from hioki, which run under different names.(which are equal, not "better")
(R&S, Lecroy, Rigol and Siglent...no kidding).

Siglent probe

Rigol probe

R&S probe

Lecroy probe

And that's the problem, the old Tek system is great but very space consuming, the nice narrow probes from Siglent and co. way too expensive.
And so I've been waiting for a good and yet inexpensive probe from China....
To date, all I had up to 600 € were nothing.
From this point of view, the 1200€ would be a bargain, the Micsig would bring a very similar performance.
But you do not know currently and even if it would be "only" 1200, I do not want to play a test rabbit this time. ;)
Plus I really do not understand why the universal "B" variant costs twice as much as the one for micsig scopes only.  :o

« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 06:19:34 pm by Martin72 »
 

Online PartialDischarge

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2023, 06:41:31 pm »
One problem with clamp probes is that CMRR is either not specified or is very bad. Historically CMRR was not a very demanded spec in current probes so the trend of not asking for it has continued.
So for high side/floating current measurements, there is going to be a nice distortion.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 07:40:38 pm by PartialDischarge »
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2023, 12:37:00 am »
Plus I really do not understand why the universal "B" variant costs twice as much as the one for micsig scopes only.  :o

It shouldn't from what I've been quoted wholesale pricing for the B varient.
 

Offline jonpaul

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2023, 12:51:47 am »
Rebonjour, cher PartialDischarge ...

" clamp probes ...CMRR  not specified or is very bad.
 for high side/floating current measurements, there is going to be a nice distortion"

Well there is not a "high sided distortion" but a predictable CM noise coupling proportional to  Dv/Dt of the circuit probed and the stray C probed wire to probe body.

Thus CM current = Icm = C dV/Dt

In 55 yrs we never had a problem with a current probe CMRR.

No spec as the coupling depends on conductor size and position in probe jaw aperture.

  Cp-s is perhaps a few pF.

 But any CMRR issue  is easy to solve.

1. Place probe at rtn/low side of circuit not at high side, eg BJT NPN emitter or FET drain.

Thus the CM  voltage is minimum, near ground.

2. Make a small copper shield around the conductor, with a slit to avoid shorted turn/

Wrap the shield tightly around the conductor. No shorted turn!

Ground the shield: Voila a Faraday shield.

Jon
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 02:49:13 am by jonpaul »
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Offline jonpaul

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2023, 02:36:29 am »
Rebonjour a tous:

Your questions re TEK CT and CMRR sparked my curiosity.

I unearthed my collection of CT and DC hall TEK probes, circa   1980s..1990 at ham fleas in SV, epay, since 2000 and (sadly) ham friends silent keys.

 For  SMPS, arc lamp ballast, pulsed power, R&D, consulting and magnetics design.

With HP LCR meter 4332A, with a short insulated wire stub, 3 pF range, zero out wire stub, 20..50 mm
Cap Probe return/body to wire.

P6022 0.75pF (AC passive, LF 3 db 8.5 kHz)
p6021 0.85 pF (AC passive, LF 3 db 450 Hz)
P6302 1.0 pF (active hall DC-50 MHz)
P6303 0.58 pF  (active hall 100A huge gun )


Conclusion: CMRR is not an issue, external Faraday shield unneeded.

 stray C of test setup and DUT will swamp the under 1 pF C current wire ><probe return.

 TEK has grounded the metal shell or shield of the probe CT and Hall device so a built in Faraday shield.


Your thoughts appreciated!

Have an ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC day,

Jon

PS:
Probe size relates to core area, thus sensitivity and LF /HF rolloff point.
For very  AC only we use   TEK P6021 and much smaller TEK P6022

PPS: Yokogawa current  probes are also excellent but the probe power  is a proprietary pinout, +/- 12 V on a 4 pin Lemo.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 02:47:26 am by jonpaul »
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Online PartialDischarge

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2023, 08:26:08 am »
In 55 yrs we never had a problem with a current probe CMRR.
Never had problems because as you mention you did avoid it by measuring low side. Also nowadays stacked or multilevel topologies are quite common which was not the case 20 or more years ago.


Quote from: jonpaul
Conclusion: CMRR is not an issue, external Faraday shield unneeded.
Wrong conclusion.The capacitances you mention are only relevant to calculate how much current goes into the current probe from your circuit (loading purposes) but says nothing about how the measure will be affected.
Of the probes listed I only saw the RS having CMRR data, and it is not bad, but extremely bad, only quoted to 20KHz, I can imagine at 1MHz is it like 20dB.



« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 08:29:47 am by PartialDischarge »
 

Offline thaamike

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2023, 01:01:27 pm »
Any luck getting these probe for the nice price ?
 

Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2023, 10:07:57 pm »
Any luck getting these probe for the nice price ?

I've just asked again for the sample.
 
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Offline EEVblogTopic starter

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Re: Micsig CP1003/CP503 100MHz/50MHz Current Probe
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2023, 11:15:51 am »
Any luck getting these probe for the nice price ?
I've just asked again for the sample.

They got back to me. The R&D team are all working on the isolated probe and have no time to finish the current probe  :o so there will be delays.
Sounds like they think the isolated fibre optic probe will overtake the traditional high voltage probe, they want to know if I'm interested in getting one.
 
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