Author Topic: More WaveAce224 issues!  (Read 31561 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline madworm

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 373
  • Country: de
More WaveAce224 issues!
« on: April 27, 2012, 07:22:53 pm »
I will collect all the other issues I come across in this thread. Stay tuned ;-)

The record length of this scope is just 10k and it is fixed. Therefore when going to a large timebase the sample rate naturally goes down. To be expected. Unfortunately this also severely hinders triggering on short spikes, as they are likely to be missed - even in edge trigger mode + peak detect. Now I would have thought that for more fancy trigger options that is unavoidable (like pulse-length trigger), but at least for pure edge-trigger it should be possible to sample with a higher rate until a trigger event is detected and then switch down to whatever is dialed in... oh well.

This time it is a displaying issue when switching between trigger options (auto/normal/single) and involves reference traces, window zoom and some funky "special effects" (unwanted of course).

* The "reference trace" (stored data) is only displayed when the "live trace" has seen a trigger event ! ? ! (madness)
* The "reference trace" vanishes when switching trigger modes
* Window-zoom is only available in "normal-trigger" (only triggered once) when the run/stop button has been pushed
* Sometimes the trace vanishes
* In "normal trigger" the trace is severely distorted / misplaced when moving it on the screen
* In "single trigger" it is OK.

Probably more to come soon...

« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 09:38:38 pm by madworm »
 

Offline madworm

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 373
  • Country: de
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2012, 12:20:30 pm »
As the sample-rate goes down at large time-base settings and the record-length is fixed (10k), the screen refresh rate goes down dramatically.

Unfortunately the whole scope seems to become sluggish. Everything seems to wait for the ongoing sweep to complete. This is a bit subjective I must admit. I had the impression that the only way to reset an ongoing sweep is to change the timebase back and forth. I will have to re-check that.

My old analog Tektronix 314 can easily be set to store a new image every X seconds. And of course you can reset the cycle and rearm it anytime. And it doesn't miss a trigger due to low sample rate either.

Don't throw away your old analog scopes!

 

Offline madworm

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 373
  • Country: de
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2012, 07:01:01 pm »
FFT display oddities:

It recognizes user-input via a button, but doesn't use that information right away.


Using the dB scale is apparently complicated for the little thing...


'Forced trigger' observations:

1st half of the video: cut-off waveform. 2nd half: zoom behaviour (maybe valid, but still odd).

« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 07:09:33 pm by madworm »
 

Offline madworm

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 373
  • Country: de
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2012, 06:31:21 am »
Today I managed to damage one of the alligator ground clips! Material fatigue? Who knows.



I found a replacement clip in a box somewhere, so it got fixed... BUT the insulation of the cable (always too short) didn't play nicely at all. I did a few tests and it starts to disintegrate at about 120°C - ARGH  >:(
 

Offline madworm

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 373
  • Country: de
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2012, 07:26:59 am »
A couple of more videos ;-)





Not a complete show-stopper, but very annoying!
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 07:28:52 am by madworm »
 

Offline madworm

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 373
  • Country: de
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2012, 05:51:06 pm »
And another one! - Where's my HAMMER?

I'm just moving the trace up and down, nothing more.

 

Offline Bored@Work

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3932
  • Country: 00
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2012, 06:46:06 pm »
LeCroy Waveace's are rebranded and overpriced Atten junk. So what do you expect?
I delete PMs unread. If you have something to say, say it in public.
For all else: Profile->[Modify Profile]Buddies/Ignore List->Edit Ignore List
 

Offline madworm

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 373
  • Country: de
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2012, 07:01:19 pm »
Simple answer: to get what I payed for!

If they choose to re-brand other products - fine. Still I can expect them to subject these products to the usual testing and quality control procedures. If they don't... well we all know what should happen to a company that doesn't do adequate testing.

I don't know yet what my support request will lead to, but I currently don't think I will EVER buy a Le-crook scope again - be it as a private person or on the job.

If I had enough money to spare I'd get me a nice chainsaw and cut this rotten thing in half and send them the pieces for "further inspection".
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 07:06:43 pm by madworm »
 

Offline tinhead

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1922
  • Country: 00
    • If you like my hacks, send me a donation
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2012, 09:10:44 pm »
LeCroy Waveace's are rebranded and overpriced Atten junk. So what do you expect?

No matter if rebranded and overpriced Atten junk or Rigol crap .. the point is there is a 1000USD price difference.
If you would pay 1000USD to manufacturer directly believe me they would fix the fw issues.

The problem with rebranded gear is that you paying for name, not for support.
From LeCroy point of view (and they can correct me here if i'm wrong) these DSOs are "cheap" entry level
gears with just a basic support, they will not spend time on that. If you wish support you will have to pay more.
I don't want to be human! I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter ...
I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me.
 

Online ejeffrey

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2268
  • Country: us
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2012, 09:24:31 pm »
If they choose to re-brand other products - fine. Still I can expect them to subject these products to the usual testing and quality control procedures.

You can expect that, but nobody in the business does it.  When you buy a cheap import with a name brand, what you get for your money is a better chance of having an english speaking contact for warranty repair and not much else.  You can't count on better design, reliability, or testing than if you bought it from the OEM.  You might get friendlier service, but it won't be much better as the reseller typically won't have spare parts, diagnostics, or technical expertise related to the product and will have to forward all but the simplest requests to the OEM.

Basically you shouldn't pay a premium for a rebadged device.  They perhaps made sense when it was more difficult to buy the chinese stuff directly, but now if you want to buy a cheap Chinese import, buy the original.  At least buy from a lower tier rebagder that doesn't charge a huge premium.  You will get a cheap product at a cheap price.  If you want to pay more and get a name brand, find a manufacturer that still designs their low-end products in house.
 

Offline madworm

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 373
  • Country: de
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2012, 10:41:06 pm »
Well I didn't buy it just recently. I got it two years ago but didn't have access to it (don't ask). And it was a promotional offer (about 20% cheaper), so it seemed like a good deal at that time. Initially I wanted to get the top-end Rigol, but the seller (US) refused to export to the EU - told me he was 'asked' by them not to ship it. The EU prices were considerably higher... the usual rip-off.

Again, if Lecroy don't fix this they can go to HELL as far as I'm concerned. I don't know if the low-end scopes of their competitors are any better (I do hope so), but you just don't do business like that. If a company chooses to misbehave like that, they surely won't see any business from me again. Ever. And if they desire my eternal wrath and seek a shitstorm, well... they can have it. Not that they will give a damn about it, but they can still have it.

Low-end devices naturally have 'weaker' specs, less bandwidth, less features, may be slower and so forth. That is to be expected and fully accepted. Cheap CPUs for example are slower - well known fact. Cheap digital cameras don't record HD videos, don't have image stabilizers, but still take decent images.

What is not to be expected are FRIGGIN' BUGS! Apparently unfixed for at least 2 years as it seems. They should change their name to bloody Microsoft...

/rant
 

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7569
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2012, 02:08:55 am »
Just change the
Ast to letters to ap.. As in LeCr.. ... I did that once, and that was on a 34000$ machine from them. Full of bugs. I had a list 15 pages long. Select an area to zoom and it shows you a totally different area, time lock between channels lost ....And more pleasantries, to outright showing stuff that wasn't there.. It triggered, and showed the old acquisition...
 It took them 2 months to come back.. ( they couldn't find the 'problems' until i walked them through it step by step on the phone...) .here is a beta... Can you test it and see if its fixed ...

A 34k$ machine and i have to 'test a 'beta' ?

And then there is the incessant ' triggering' , 'acquiring', calinrating ... Show me the damn signal you pile of recycled electrons !. We have a bunch of them at work and EVERYONE swears and yells at those machines. Even at the 7Zi's ... Turn a knob fast and it either locks up or it becomes a hoover vacuum... ( all the fans kicking in ).
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 02:13:30 am by free_electron »
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline muvideo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 406
  • Country: it
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2012, 07:00:41 am »
Simple answer: to get what I payed for!
If I had enough money to spare I'd get me a nice chainsaw and cut this rotten thing in half and send them the pieces for "further inspection".

LOL!
That procedure deserves to be standardized and given a name or an acronym, maybe doesnt solve the problem
but the satisfaction would be enough :)

madworm, I understand you, and if you need a chainsaw I'm here to help you :)

Fabio.
Fabio Eboli.
 

Offline metalphreak

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 815
  • Country: au
  • http://d.av.id.au
    • D.av.id.AU
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2012, 08:39:34 am »
If you buy a product it should work as advertised. Just because it is cheap doesn't excuse that it doesn't work properly especially from a "reputable name brand" company.

If they can't make a product that works at that price point, they shouldn't be selling it for that price.

Offline madworm

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 373
  • Country: de
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2012, 12:40:49 pm »
LOL!
That procedure deserves to be standardized and given a name or an acronym, maybe doesnt solve the problem
but the satisfaction would be enough :)

I've been watching a couple of Photonicinduction videos lately... that is giving me ideas!

"I ain't avin it ! Where's smashy the hammer? I WANT FLAMES!!"

or

"Let's crank it up... until it POPssssss..."
 

Offline saturation

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4788
  • Country: us
  • Doveryai, no proveryai
    • NIST
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2012, 12:51:49 pm »
Its a reason eevblog is so valuable, before it we rarely heard of problems with MTE gear, much less teardowns.  Most electronics forums on the net are useless, helping students with homework or newbies how to do ohms law.  Professional forums are so water downed, its nearly useless.  The newsgroups were helpful, if you can stand being insulted or the SN ratio.

Kudos to madworm to bringing this up; IIRC there is a Lecroy rep in the forum, maybe they can do something about this now that its public.  I recall Fluke moved on a unknown bug in the long discontinued 85 III DMM, and gave the owner a new Fluke 87V in exchange after he found and complained of it; I have one of the 85 III and confirmed the bug, it never goes into sleep mode.


Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline saturation

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4788
  • Country: us
  • Doveryai, no proveryai
    • NIST
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2012, 11:48:32 am »
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline madworm

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 373
  • Country: de
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2012, 01:54:40 am »
Now we need a firmware comparison.

And of course I've got another issue: automatic measurements + automatic cursors. Again it is a feature that is a bit flaky. Maybe I have a talent to choose bad settings... or my expectations are too high (hahahaha).

 

Offline madworm

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 373
  • Country: de
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2012, 08:46:32 pm »
There's more!

 

Offline jpb

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1732
  • Country: gb
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2012, 09:23:14 pm »
I have no experience of LeCroy but was looking at the Wavejet as it is heavily discounted at present.

From what people are posting here, perhaps I should avoid LeCroy altogether? Is the Wavejet a proper LeCroy scope or is it a higher grade Atten?

Choosing a 100MHz scope is difficult at present. Tektronix have very low specs for the money. Rigol have the tempting DS2000 series but are a bit of an unknown. Agilent are rather pricey and have left off an annoying number of features on their 2000 series (only 100k memory, no hardware frequency counter, no arbitrary wave form or modulation on the function generator and a number of other things) and it would appear that LeCroy is not a brilliant choice!
 

Online digsys

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2205
  • Country: au
    • DIGSYS
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2012, 12:40:38 am »
Quote
I have no experience of LeCroy ..
They used to be the best bar NONE, in CRT, before digital displays. I've have a few 9410s, 9354AL since the beginning, and they are
absolutely wonderful. I'm looking at buying another 9354AL, fully loaded (~$1700) on ebay, there's plenty there. Don't know what
happened since they went to LCD screens, but not looking good. Sad.

Quote
Choosing a 100MHz scope is difficult at present.
Been looking for a portable CRO for a few weeks now, and it's NOT getting any easier to decide. What a mess. Currently, I'm stuck
on the GW Instek (at ~$1,800). Oddly, It seems that there are NO sellers(?) that will offer ANY discount ! Seems odd to me.
Hello <tap> <tap> .. is this thing on?
 

Offline T4P

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3706
  • Country: sg
    • T4P
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2012, 04:48:22 am »
I have no experience of LeCroy but was looking at the Wavejet as it is heavily discounted at present.

From what people are posting here, perhaps I should avoid LeCroy altogether? Is the Wavejet a proper LeCroy scope or is it a higher grade Atten?

Choosing a 100MHz scope is difficult at present. Tektronix have very low specs for the money. Rigol have the tempting DS2000 series but are a bit of an unknown. Agilent are rather pricey and have left off an annoying number of features on their 2000 series (only 100k memory, no hardware frequency counter, no arbitrary wave form or modulation on the function generator and a number of other things) and it would appear that LeCroy is not a brilliant choice!
Well you do get 50,000 wfrms update rate which is good plus, but x3000 is much better though slightly a little more expensive
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1532
  • Country: de
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2012, 09:20:14 am »
From what people are posting here, perhaps I should avoid LeCroy altogether? Is the Wavejet a proper LeCroy scope or is it a higher grade Atten?
LeCroy developed the first DSO and they are still one of the top vendors for DSOs in the higher price range. Then again, their entry products are unfortunately rebranded overprized China crap nowadays.
The WaveJets are somewhere in the middle. The WaveJet line was aquired by LeCroy from a Japanese Vendor called Iwatsu that had a reseller/manufacturer relationsship with LeCroy before that point. So WaveJets are not genuine LeCroys in a way, but they are also definitely not rebranded China crap as the WaveAce or WaveStation entry level stuff.

Choosing a 100MHz scope is difficult at present.
As pointed out in the other thread: you should have a loot at the Hameg HMO scopes. They are pretty good value for the money and Hameg has good customer support compared to Rigol and the likes.

They used to be the best bar NONE, in CRT, before digital displays. I've have a few 9410s, 9354AL since the beginning, and they are absolutely wonderful. I'm looking at buying another 9354AL, fully loaded (~$1700) on ebay, there's plenty there. Don't know what happened since they went to LCD screens, but not looking good. Sad.
We have some of these old school orange CRT LeCroys at work, but in no way you can compare them to a state of the art LeCroy DSO like a WaveRunner 6Zi. This is like comparing a Commodore C64 to a Core i7 workstation. 2GS/s and 16kpts for a 500Mhz scope? And saving to a floppy drive (that is almost certainly dead after all these years)? Now really, the nineties are over.

Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 

Online digsys

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2205
  • Country: au
    • DIGSYS
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2012, 10:47:18 am »
Quote
... in no way you can compare them to a state of the art LeCroy DSO like a WaveRunner 6Zi. This is like comparing a Commodore C64 to a Core i7 workstation. 2GS/s and 16kpts for a 500Mhz scope? And saving to a floppy drive (that is almost certainly dead after all these years)? Now really, the nineties are over
The 90's are over laready??? NOOOOOOO :-) grrr can't add the smiley face
Dun't think anyone was comparing them to a $25K-$40K model. I was comparing them to ALL the current LCD versions being discussed in the forums.
Yup, the FDD is loooong dead, but I still have GPIB and RS232 ports, which are enough in most cases. And I do like my built in printer.
Also, it's 4channel with 500MHz analogue bandwith ! Plus 16MB of memory ... and I think you can still find a SD card option. SO for someone who has a
limited budget, and DOESN'T need portability, or want to debug ALL the cr@p that the new scopes seem to be riddled with, then this is a BARGAIN !!
Hello <tap> <tap> .. is this thing on?
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1532
  • Country: de
Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2012, 11:10:22 am »
The 90's are over laready??? NOOOOOOO :-) grrr can't add the smiley face
Pah, this is so 20th century ;)

Dun't think anyone was comparing them to a $25K-$40K model. I was comparing them to ALL the current LCD versions being discussed in the forums.
The WaveSurfer line starts at ~8k€, for the WaveRunner 6Zi (600MHz)  we paid something like 12k€ without VAT and options.
But these ARE the "current LCD versions" of real LeCroy scopes. As pointed out before, the WaveJets are a good quality, but a little outdated Iwatsu design and the WaveAces are rebranded and overpriced Atten crap.

Also, it's 4channel with 500MHz analogue bandwith ! Plus 16MB of memory ... and I think you can still find a SD card option. SO for someone who has a
limited budget, and DOESN'T need portability, or want to debug ALL the cr@p that the new scopes seem to be riddled with, then this is a BARGAIN !!
This must be 16MB of internal storage, but as I understand the record length is limited to 16kPts. The CRT LeCroys we have at work are even worse. Something like 8kPts and only 200MSa/s for a 200MHz scope (swallow that, Shannon). This makes them unusable for most of the serious stuff.
Trying is the first step towards failure - Homer J. Simpson
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf