Author Topic: More WaveAce224 issues!  (Read 31559 times)

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Offline grumpydoc

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2012, 12:38:22 pm »
Quote
This must be 16MB of internal storage, but as I understand the record length is limited to 16kPts. The CRT LeCroys we have at work are even worse. Something like 8kPts and only 200MSa/s for a 200MHz scope (swallow that, Shannon). This makes them unusable for most of the serious stuff.

Not sure what digsys has/was refering to - the 94xx series and the 9314 are not so good but 9354s have a minimum of 50kpts/channel sample memory, up to 2Mpts and up to 64M of RAM for processing, storing waveforms etc.

Admittedly you can only get the full 2Gs/s by combining the four channels into one (though this does also mean minimum 200kpts) so not quite as good as a modern 500MHz 'scope which will normally do its full sample rate on all the channels simultaneously but there are still quite a number of 500MHz 'scopes in the Farnell catalogue which have 2Gs/s or 2.5Gs/s rates.

The 9354/9374/9384 are 90's 'scopes but they aren't yet totally in the "only good to be put out to pasture" category.
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2012, 01:48:52 pm »
Hm, ok, I googled the 9354AL and this link said 16kpts, but you're right, there were obviously versions with 2MPts/ch, which is still pretty good even today. Boy, these must have been expensive at their time ;)
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Online digsys

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2012, 02:03:11 pm »
Hm, ok, I googled the 9354AL and this link said 16kpts, but you're right, there were obviously versions with 2MPts/ch, which is still pretty good even today. Boy, these must have been expensive at their time ;)
My first 2 cost me $30K and $50K respectively !! The top of the line at the time (fully optioned) was $80K. I bought them pretty much when they were
released, and there were only 2 in OZ. A govt agency (no names) borrowed one once for a "job"  :-) They had an custom antennae that they attached,
and could drive around and SEE what was on any VGA CRT screen, inside a building (but near a window). I think the range was ~20-30M. Memories.
Yes, my base unit has 2MP /channel AND a 16MB card fitted. Great for FFT, incredible resolution.
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Offline grumpydoc

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2012, 08:16:26 pm »
Quote
Hm, ok, I googled the 9354AL and this link said 16kpts
Not sure where that comes from, even the 9400 has 32k per channel.

there's a nice brochure covering the specs for the 9350/9354/9374/9384 at http://www.frankcollyer.com/samples/bigsamples/LeCroyBrochure.pdf

I picked up a 9354T and a 9354TM fairly inexpensively on ebay, both have a few minor but typical problems: knackered RTC batteries (unobtanium in the UK  >:( ), yes - failing floppies, broken encoder shafts (tricky), missing knobs (unobtanium anywhere) but essentially working.

The plan is to try to get them as close to 100% as possible and then sell one and keep the other until I can afford a better DSO - that could be a while.

The 9354T is 100kpts/channel, the 9354TM is 500kpts/channel.
 

Online digsys

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2012, 11:37:04 pm »
Quote
I picked up a 9354T and a 9354TM fairly inexpensively on ebay, both have a few minor but typical problems: knackered RTC batteries (unobtanium in the UK :( ), yes - failing floppies, broken encoder shafts (tricky), missing knobs (unobtanium anywhere) but essentially working. ...
Abolute bargains to be had on ebay :-) .. The RTC battery is easy fixed. I removed the PCB mounted one, found a close eqivalent, soldered flying leads
and a made a plug on the PCB. Now I have a standard swap out for all my CROs. The other big issue is screen burn in. I did find an ebay seller a while
ago who had (has?) brand new CRTs, and quite cheap. Easy to fit. Swapped out a FDD once, no issue. Definitely NOT worth it now, besides we have
direct port connections. I've tried replacements, but the screen SIZE and resolution is hard to beat.
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Offline grumpydoc

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2012, 06:24:06 am »
RTC battery is mostly sorted, have found a close item from Farnell - physically a bit smaller, 65mAh rather than 90 but will fit PCB.

However an odd thing happened when I swapped it into the 9354T (the TM's battery is OK as it happens) - put new battery in and the 'scope wouldn't boot, fiddled around a bit including putting the old battery back but no joy. Left the 'scope on the bench overnight and mysteriously it booted fine the next day. I might have another go with a couple of flying leads to a backup even though the current battery is dead.

Encoders: It's the two "zoom" encoder shafts which are snapped, These are Bourns  "ECW" series, one with detent "clicks" and one with a smooth non-detent action. Mouser stock the non-detent version but the detent version is a special order item with a MOQ of 300. Wound up with two of the detent version with 6mm shafts. ebay not much joy here in UK so might as well buy from Mouser as their shipping is reasonable.

Knobs - can't find anything which fits the .185" split shaft anywhere in the UK, or indeed anywhere; yes did try ebay. This is partly the reason I got the "wrong" shafts on the encoders. Found some OKW knobs from Conrad which aren't too far off. Slightly broader at the base (14.5mm vs 12mm approx) and a slightly different grey but I think they'll look OK.

Floppy: not sure I'll put a lot of energy into fixing the floppies. The 9345T drive works but doesn't pass the built-in test. Have tried new disks in case my 20 year old, alternately baked and frozen in the garage ones were shot but no joy. Also tried a different drive (still have a couple lying around) but much the same. Might swap the controller card from the 9354TM but that's about as far as I'll take it. The drive on the 9345TM is toast (sounds like the spindle lubrication has gone sticky).

I just need to find some time to get the old panel out and fit the new bits to it.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2012, 06:28:09 am by grumpydoc »
 

Offline madworm

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2012, 03:20:35 pm »
I'm trying to ZOOM into a signal captured in single-shot mode.

* 1st attempt: initial time base of 25.0µs/div (FAIL)

After the trace has been captured I rotate the encoder 1 click to the right. The pile of junk immediately jumps to 1.0µs/div and just beeps...

* 2nd attempt: time base of 1.0µs/div (OK)

Same procedure as above. And this time I can indeed zoom in and out without problems. It only beeps when trying to go out of range (e.g. 5.0µs/div and larger values - but that is expected behaviour).



I want my money back!

« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 03:22:45 pm by madworm »
 

Offline madworm

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2012, 03:24:44 pm »
I've started a new blog. It is exclusively dedicated to the fabulous Lecroy WaveAce224 and its issues and bugs. For the time being it is just a mirror of my regular Lecroy posts on my blog, but in a more condensed form ;-)

Maybe I can raise some awareness in some heads...

www.waveace224-sucks.com
 

Offline saturation

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2012, 04:24:19 pm »
I'm amazed at the amount of info you've amassed on this model.  I hope LeCroy gives you a new scope in response, with all the issues you've raised corrected or at least refund your money.  If not, they'll have a blog full of its unintended features ::)
Best Wishes,

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Offline Bored@Work

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2012, 06:13:07 pm »
I hope LeCroy gives you a new scope [...] with all the issues you've raised corrected

Well, that requires they are willing and able to correct them. Even if they are willing they might lack the skills. Or, much worse, have to go to Atten/Siglent with their hat in their hand, and beg them for a firmware update.
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Offline madworm

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2012, 06:25:23 pm »
The fact that the last firmware update is more than 2 years old tells a story of its own.

I simply can't believe that I'm the only one who has noticed these issues. It is possible, but quite unlikely. Maybe I'm the only who's complaining openly about it.
 

Offline madworm

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2012, 08:05:34 pm »
And another one!

It got a bit warm today, so maybe that was the cause. Maybe... I call it 'eternal boot screen'.

Enjoy the video, if that is possible at all. I cut out most of the self-calibration part. The rest is uncut.

« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 08:45:50 pm by madworm »
 

Offline madworm

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2012, 09:22:10 pm »
Well, I have a feeling it was the timebase setting. If you look closely, at the beginning of the video it was set to 50s/div, later the auto-mode changed it to something a lot smaller and the boot screen disappeared as usual. I'll have to verify this later.

It may not strictly be a bug, but it is still pretty darn idiotic for the boot screen to wait until such an extremely long sweep is over. Why does it even start a sweep before the boot screen is gone? Thinking about it again, it fits into the whole picture of this device. It definitely has not seen any in depth testing... I'm certain of that fact.

I think I will test my next scope in person before handing over the money. And if I should ever find a pot of gold (or equivalent) somewhere... I WILL get a Chainsaw and cut this darn thing in half.
 

Offline Bored@Work

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2012, 09:43:12 pm »
Why not cut your losses now, and dump that LeCroy-branded Atten/Siglent junk? At least if you value your mental health.

I don't think LeCroy gives a shit, and after they got sold there is maybe no one there caring about the brand's reputation. Greasing up to the new owner is more important now than taking care of the technical things and the reputation.
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Offline madworm

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2012, 10:33:38 pm »
When I have sufficient funding available, I will look into replacing this thing. Currently that is not the case ;-(

And to whom might I sell this thing without committing a horrific sin? Unless I find someone working at LeCroy who needs a scope for some important work. They can have some of their own medicine ;-)

In the meantime all I can do is document and rant and complain as loudly as I can - trying to prevent people from buying this abomination. If they want me to quit making new videos, all I need is a full refund and they can have it back. But I won't take down the videos...
 

Offline madworm

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2012, 10:45:45 pm »
Maybe... once I have replaced it with something better... I should send it to Dave to do a review and ask for a destructive tear-down.

Or even better: send it to photonicinduction at let him 'pop' it with a couple of thousand volts. I would surely enjoy THAT. And the sad remains would get sent to LeCroy headquarters - including a copy of all videos + documented bugs. That's a nice dream to have...
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 10:48:34 pm by madworm »
 

Offline T4P

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2012, 11:22:03 pm »
How much did you spend ITFP?
 

Offline madworm

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2012, 11:40:47 pm »
In terms of money the 224 cost me close to 2k€ (including tax) - and that was a promotional offer. Regular price is about 20-25% above that. Fixing the broken probe ground clip was a lot cheaper... I'd really love to see sales numbers on these units. There's got to be enough people out there to start a shit-storm.

To get an Agilent with the same specs (4CH, 200MHz) I guess I would have to shell out at least 5k€ or thereabouts. And that probably wouldn't give me protocol decoding. Not that I desperately need it, but it's a nice feature. But they just love to charge you through the nose for those extras.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 11:42:49 pm by madworm »
 

Offline T4P

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2012, 11:58:56 pm »
On the good side of the rainbow, you get what you pay for.
I just checked, there is a DSOX2014A available for 3.2k SGD
... time for LeCroy to wake up
Oops, i was supposed to say X2024A but that doesn't have 2GSPS anyway  :-\
anyway the DSO1024A i assume is a much better thing then the LeCrap anyway
Being a rigol rebrand*
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 01:29:07 am by DaveXRQ »
 

Offline madworm

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2012, 12:14:06 am »
Argh... stop it already... compared to the Agilent you've mentioned the Le@#!$ 224 is a sad heap of ... - and I'm sure they know it.
 

Offline Hypernova

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2012, 09:59:42 am »
Dude, at this rate I'm starting to wonder if some day I might read some news article about a angry dude charging into Lecroy head office bashing the poor front desk lady's head in with an oscilloscope.  :D
 

Offline madworm

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2012, 12:50:53 pm »
I won't harm an innocent front desk person, but I can't really promise that if I should meet the one(s) responsible for quality control.

I'm much more likely to annoy them on an electronics exhibition - IF they should dare to have the 224 on display and powered up - OH, I would LOVE that ;-)

There's already one company that I have seriously angered. I had a phone conversation with a nice sounding lady and there was a 'slight' misunderstanding. It turns out I was talking to the boss' daughter. Then their boss gave our 'big boss' a phone call... On the next exhibition I met 'her' and instantly changed direction. Fortuitously I had removed my name-badge before she could've read it.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 12:53:38 pm by madworm »
 

Offline madworm

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2012, 05:13:45 pm »
And another one.

This is again caused by the trigger-system blocking the WHOLE scope until a long sweep is over. Only way out: power it off.

 

Offline madworm

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2012, 05:35:32 pm »
Boot-screen update. Now it's verified. The boot-screen timeout does depend on the timebase setting. Correlation factor is very close to 1 ;-)

Madness...
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: More WaveAce224 issues!
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2012, 05:36:39 pm »
I hope you are aware that this piece of crap was developed by Atten and I would assume that any engineer working for LeCroy feels about as much shame for this product bearing the LeCroy logo as you feel anger about its flaws. If at all, curse the controllers and managers who made the decision to rebrand crap and sell it for preposterous prices.

Anyway, though I admit this could hurt your Karma quite a bit, I would assume that selling in on eBay to some innocent fool and getting an HMO2024 instead would lower your blood pressure and increase your life span quite a bit.
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