More WaveAce224 issues!

[madworm]

I will collect all the other issues I come across in this thread. Stay tuned ;-)

The record length of this scope is just 10k and it is fixed. Therefore when going to a large timebase the sample rate naturally goes down. To be expected. Unfortunately this also severely hinders triggering on short spikes, as they are likely to be missed - even in edge trigger mode + peak detect. Now I would have thought that for more fancy trigger options that is unavoidable (like pulse-length trigger), but at least for pure edge-trigger it should be possible to sample with a higher rate until a trigger event is detected and then switch down to whatever is dialed in... oh well.

This time it is a displaying issue when switching between trigger options (auto/normal/single) and involves reference traces, window zoom and some funky "special effects" (unwanted of course).

* The "reference trace" (stored data) is only displayed when the "live trace" has seen a trigger event ! ? ! (madness)
* The "reference trace" vanishes when switching trigger modes
* Window-zoom is only available in "normal-trigger" (only triggered once) when the run/stop button has been pushed
* Sometimes the trace vanishes
* In "normal trigger" the trace is severely distorted / misplaced when moving it on the screen
* In "single trigger" it is OK.

Probably more to come soon...

[madworm]

As the sample-rate goes down at large time-base settings and the record-length is fixed (10k), the screen refresh rate goes down dramatically.

Unfortunately the whole scope seems to become sluggish. Everything seems to wait for the ongoing sweep to complete. This is a bit subjective I must admit. I had the impression that the only way to reset an ongoing sweep is to change the timebase back and forth. I will have to re-check that.

My old analog Tektronix 314 can easily be set to store a new image every X seconds. And of course you can reset the cycle and rearm it anytime. And it doesn't miss a trigger due to low sample rate either.

Don't throw away your old analog scopes!

[madworm]

FFT display oddities:

It recognizes user-input via a button, but doesn't use that information right away.


Using the dB scale is apparently complicated for the little thing...


'Forced trigger' observations:

1st half of the video: cut-off waveform. 2nd half: zoom behaviour (maybe valid, but still odd).

[madworm]

Today I managed to damage one of the alligator ground clips! Material fatigue? Who knows.



I found a replacement clip in a box somewhere, so it got fixed... BUT the insulation of the cable (always too short) didn't play nicely at all. I did a few tests and it starts to disintegrate at about 120°C - ARGH 

[madworm]

A couple of more videos ;-)





Not a complete show-stopper, but very annoying!

[madworm]

And another one! - Where's my HAMMER?

I'm just moving the trace up and down, nothing more.

[Bored@Work]

LeCroy Waveace's are rebranded and overpriced Atten junk. So what do you expect?

[madworm]

Simple answer: to get what I payed for!

If they choose to re-brand other products - fine. Still I can expect them to subject these products to the usual testing and quality control procedures. If they don't... well we all know what should happen to a company that doesn't do adequate testing.

I don't know yet what my support request will lead to, but I currently don't think I will EVER buy a Le-crook scope again - be it as a private person or on the job.

If I had enough money to spare I'd get me a nice chainsaw and cut this rotten thing in half and send them the pieces for "further inspection".

[tinhead]

LeCroy Waveace's are rebranded and overpriced Atten junk. So what do you expect?

No matter if rebranded and overpriced Atten junk or Rigol crap .. the point is there is a 1000USD price difference.
If you would pay 1000USD to manufacturer directly believe me they would fix the fw issues.

The problem with rebranded gear is that you paying for name, not for support.
From LeCroy point of view (and they can correct me here if i'm wrong) these DSOs are "cheap" entry level
gears with just a basic support, they will not spend time on that. If you wish support you will have to pay more.

[ejeffrey]

If they choose to re-brand other products - fine. Still I can expect them to subject these products to the usual testing and quality control procedures.

You can expect that, but nobody in the business does it.  When you buy a cheap import with a name brand, what you get for your money is a better chance of having an english speaking contact for warranty repair and not much else.  You can't count on better design, reliability, or testing than if you bought it from the OEM.  You might get friendlier service, but it won't be much better as the reseller typically won't have spare parts, diagnostics, or technical expertise related to the product and will have to forward all but the simplest requests to the OEM.

Basically you shouldn't pay a premium for a rebadged device.  They perhaps made sense when it was more difficult to buy the chinese stuff directly, but now if you want to buy a cheap Chinese import, buy the original.  At least buy from a lower tier rebagder that doesn't charge a huge premium.  You will get a cheap product at a cheap price.  If you want to pay more and get a name brand, find a manufacturer that still designs their low-end products in house.

[madworm]

Well I didn't buy it just recently. I got it two years ago but didn't have access to it (don't ask). And it was a promotional offer (about 20% cheaper), so it seemed like a good deal at that time. Initially I wanted to get the top-end Rigol, but the seller (US) refused to export to the EU - told me he was 'asked' by them not to ship it. The EU prices were considerably higher... the usual rip-off.

Again, if Lecroy don't fix this they can go to HELL as far as I'm concerned. I don't know if the low-end scopes of their competitors are any better (I do hope so), but you just don't do business like that. If a company chooses to misbehave like that, they surely won't see any business from me again. Ever. And if they desire my eternal wrath and seek a shitstorm, well... they can have it. Not that they will give a damn about it, but they can still have it.

Low-end devices naturally have 'weaker' specs, less bandwidth, less features, may be slower and so forth. That is to be expected and fully accepted. Cheap CPUs for example are slower - well known fact. Cheap digital cameras don't record HD videos, don't have image stabilizers, but still take decent images.

What is not to be expected are FRIGGIN' BUGS! Apparently unfixed for at least 2 years as it seems. They should change their name to bloody Microsoft...

/rant

[free_electron]

Just change the
Ast to letters to ap.. As in LeCr.. ... I did that once, and that was on a 34000$ machine from them. Full of bugs. I had a list 15 pages long. Select an area to zoom and it shows you a totally different area, time lock between channels lost ....And more pleasantries, to outright showing stuff that wasn't there.. It triggered, and showed the old acquisition...
 It took them 2 months to come back.. ( they couldn't find the 'problems' until i walked them through it step by step on the phone...) .here is a beta... Can you test it and see if its fixed ...

A 34k$ machine and i have to 'test a 'beta' ?

And then there is the incessant ' triggering' , 'acquiring', calinrating ... Show me the damn signal you pile of recycled electrons !. We have a bunch of them at work and EVERYONE swears and yells at those machines. Even at the 7Zi's ... Turn a knob fast and it either locks up or it becomes a hoover vacuum... ( all the fans kicking in ).

[muvideo]

Simple answer: to get what I payed for!
If I had enough money to spare I'd get me a nice chainsaw and cut this rotten thing in half and send them the pieces for "further inspection".

LOL!
That procedure deserves to be standardized and given a name or an acronym, maybe doesnt solve the problem
but the satisfaction would be enough

madworm, I understand you, and if you need a chainsaw I'm here to help you

Fabio.

[metalphreak]

If you buy a product it should work as advertised. Just because it is cheap doesn't excuse that it doesn't work properly especially from a "reputable name brand" company.

If they can't make a product that works at that price point, they shouldn't be selling it for that price.

[madworm]

LOL!
That procedure deserves to be standardized and given a name or an acronym, maybe doesnt solve the problem
but the satisfaction would be enough

I've been watching a couple of Photonicinduction videos lately... that is giving me ideas!

"I ain't avin it ! Where's smashy the hammer? I WANT FLAMES!!"

or

"Let's crank it up... until it POPssssss..."

[saturation]

Its a reason eevblog is so valuable, before it we rarely heard of problems with MTE gear, much less teardowns.  Most electronics forums on the net are useless, helping students with homework or newbies how to do ohms law.  Professional forums are so water downed, its nearly useless.  The newsgroups were helpful, if you can stand being insulted or the SN ratio.

Kudos to madworm to bringing this up; IIRC there is a Lecroy rep in the forum, maybe they can do something about this now that its public.  I recall Fluke moved on a unknown bug in the long discontinued 85 III DMM, and gave the owner a new Fluke 87V in exchange after he found and complained of it; I have one of the 85 III and confirmed the bug, it never goes into sleep mode.

[saturation]

Confirming the Atten and Waveace relationship:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-chat/atten-ads-1102cal/msg111923/#msg111923

[madworm]

Now we need a firmware comparison.

And of course I've got another issue: automatic measurements + automatic cursors. Again it is a feature that is a bit flaky. Maybe I have a talent to choose bad settings... or my expectations are too high (hahahaha).

[madworm]

There's more!

[jpb]

I have no experience of LeCroy but was looking at the Wavejet as it is heavily discounted at present.

From what people are posting here, perhaps I should avoid LeCroy altogether? Is the Wavejet a proper LeCroy scope or is it a higher grade Atten?

Choosing a 100MHz scope is difficult at present. Tektronix have very low specs for the money. Rigol have the tempting DS2000 series but are a bit of an unknown. Agilent are rather pricey and have left off an annoying number of features on their 2000 series (only 100k memory, no hardware frequency counter, no arbitrary wave form or modulation on the function generator and a number of other things) and it would appear that LeCroy is not a brilliant choice!

[digsys]

I have no experience of LeCroy ..

They used to be the best bar NONE, in CRT, before digital displays. I've have a few 9410s, 9354AL since the beginning, and they are
absolutely wonderful. I'm looking at buying another 9354AL, fully loaded (~$1700) on ebay, there's plenty there. Don't know what
happened since they went to LCD screens, but not looking good. Sad.

Choosing a 100MHz scope is difficult at present.

Been looking for a portable CRO for a few weeks now, and it's NOT getting any easier to decide. What a mess. Currently, I'm stuck
on the GW Instek (at ~$1,800). Oddly, It seems that there are NO sellers(?) that will offer ANY discount ! Seems odd to me.

[T4P]

I have no experience of LeCroy but was looking at the Wavejet as it is heavily discounted at present.

From what people are posting here, perhaps I should avoid LeCroy altogether? Is the Wavejet a proper LeCroy scope or is it a higher grade Atten?

Choosing a 100MHz scope is difficult at present. Tektronix have very low specs for the money. Rigol have the tempting DS2000 series but are a bit of an unknown. Agilent are rather pricey and have left off an annoying number of features on their 2000 series (only 100k memory, no hardware frequency counter, no arbitrary wave form or modulation on the function generator and a number of other things) and it would appear that LeCroy is not a brilliant choice!

Well you do get 50,000 wfrms update rate which is good plus, but x3000 is much better though slightly a little more expensive

[0xdeadbeef]

From what people are posting here, perhaps I should avoid LeCroy altogether? Is the Wavejet a proper LeCroy scope or is it a higher grade Atten?

LeCroy developed the first DSO and they are still one of the top vendors for DSOs in the higher price range. Then again, their entry products are unfortunately rebranded overprized China crap nowadays.
The WaveJets are somewhere in the middle. The WaveJet line was aquired by LeCroy from a Japanese Vendor called Iwatsu that had a reseller/manufacturer relationsship with LeCroy before that point. So WaveJets are not genuine LeCroys in a way, but they are also definitely not rebranded China crap as the WaveAce or WaveStation entry level stuff.

Choosing a 100MHz scope is difficult at present.

As pointed out in the other thread: you should have a loot at the Hameg HMO scopes. They are pretty good value for the money and Hameg has good customer support compared to Rigol and the likes.

They used to be the best bar NONE, in CRT, before digital displays. I've have a few 9410s, 9354AL since the beginning, and they are absolutely wonderful. I'm looking at buying another 9354AL, fully loaded (~$1700) on ebay, there's plenty there. Don't know what happened since they went to LCD screens, but not looking good. Sad.

We have some of these old school orange CRT LeCroys at work, but in no way you can compare them to a state of the art LeCroy DSO like a WaveRunner 6Zi. This is like comparing a Commodore C64 to a Core i7 workstation. 2GS/s and 16kpts for a 500Mhz scope? And saving to a floppy drive (that is almost certainly dead after all these years)? Now really, the nineties are over.

[digsys]

... in no way you can compare them to a state of the art LeCroy DSO like a WaveRunner 6Zi. This is like comparing a Commodore C64 to a Core i7 workstation. 2GS/s and 16kpts for a 500Mhz scope? And saving to a floppy drive (that is almost certainly dead after all these years)? Now really, the nineties are over

The 90's are over laready??? NOOOOOOO :-) grrr can't add the smiley face
Dun't think anyone was comparing them to a $25K-$40K model. I was comparing them to ALL the current LCD versions being discussed in the forums.
Yup, the FDD is loooong dead, but I still have GPIB and RS232 ports, which are enough in most cases. And I do like my built in printer.
Also, it's 4channel with 500MHz analogue bandwith ! Plus 16MB of memory ... and I think you can still find a SD card option. SO for someone who has a
limited budget, and DOESN'T need portability, or want to debug ALL the cr@p that the new scopes seem to be riddled with, then this is a BARGAIN !!

[0xdeadbeef]

The 90's are over laready??? NOOOOOOO :-) grrr can't add the smiley face

Pah, this is so 20th century

Dun't think anyone was comparing them to a $25K-$40K model. I was comparing them to ALL the current LCD versions being discussed in the forums.

The WaveSurfer line starts at ~8k€, for the WaveRunner 6Zi (600MHz)  we paid something like 12k€ without VAT and options.
But these ARE the "current LCD versions" of real LeCroy scopes. As pointed out before, the WaveJets are a good quality, but a little outdated Iwatsu design and the WaveAces are rebranded and overpriced Atten crap.

Also, it's 4channel with 500MHz analogue bandwith ! Plus 16MB of memory ... and I think you can still find a SD card option. SO for someone who has a
limited budget, and DOESN'T need portability, or want to debug ALL the cr@p that the new scopes seem to be riddled with, then this is a BARGAIN !!

This must be 16MB of internal storage, but as I understand the record length is limited to 16kPts. The CRT LeCroys we have at work are even worse. Something like 8kPts and only 200MSa/s for a 200MHz scope (swallow that, Shannon). This makes them unusable for most of the serious stuff.

[grumpydoc]

This must be 16MB of internal storage, but as I understand the record length is limited to 16kPts. The CRT LeCroys we have at work are even worse. Something like 8kPts and only 200MSa/s for a 200MHz scope (swallow that, Shannon). This makes them unusable for most of the serious stuff.

Not sure what digsys has/was refering to - the 94xx series and the 9314 are not so good but 9354s have a minimum of 50kpts/channel sample memory, up to 2Mpts and up to 64M of RAM for processing, storing waveforms etc.

Admittedly you can only get the full 2Gs/s by combining the four channels into one (though this does also mean minimum 200kpts) so not quite as good as a modern 500MHz 'scope which will normally do its full sample rate on all the channels simultaneously but there are still quite a number of 500MHz 'scopes in the Farnell catalogue which have 2Gs/s or 2.5Gs/s rates.

The 9354/9374/9384 are 90's 'scopes but they aren't yet totally in the "only good to be put out to pasture" category.

[0xdeadbeef]

Hm, ok, I googled the 9354AL and this link said 16kpts, but you're right, there were obviously versions with 2MPts/ch, which is still pretty good even today. Boy, these must have been expensive at their time

[digsys]

Hm, ok, I googled the 9354AL and this link said 16kpts, but you're right, there were obviously versions with 2MPts/ch, which is still pretty good even today. Boy, these must have been expensive at their time

My first 2 cost me $30K and $50K respectively !! The top of the line at the time (fully optioned) was $80K. I bought them pretty much when they were
released, and there were only 2 in OZ. A govt agency (no names) borrowed one once for a "job"  :-) They had an custom antennae that they attached,
and could drive around and SEE what was on any VGA CRT screen, inside a building (but near a window). I think the range was ~20-30M. Memories.
Yes, my base unit has 2MP /channel AND a 16MB card fitted. Great for FFT, incredible resolution.

[grumpydoc]

Hm, ok, I googled the 9354AL and this link said 16kpts

Not sure where that comes from, even the 9400 has 32k per channel.

there's a nice brochure covering the specs for the 9350/9354/9374/9384 at http://www.frankcollyer.com/samples/bigsamples/LeCroyBrochure.pdf

I picked up a 9354T and a 9354TM fairly inexpensively on ebay, both have a few minor but typical problems: knackered RTC batteries (unobtanium in the UK  ), yes - failing floppies, broken encoder shafts (tricky), missing knobs (unobtanium anywhere) but essentially working.

The plan is to try to get them as close to 100% as possible and then sell one and keep the other until I can afford a better DSO - that could be a while.

The 9354T is 100kpts/channel, the 9354TM is 500kpts/channel.

[digsys]

I picked up a 9354T and a 9354TM fairly inexpensively on ebay, both have a few minor but typical problems: knackered RTC batteries (unobtanium in the UK ), yes - failing floppies, broken encoder shafts (tricky), missing knobs (unobtanium anywhere) but essentially working. ...

Abolute bargains to be had on ebay :-) .. The RTC battery is easy fixed. I removed the PCB mounted one, found a close eqivalent, soldered flying leads
and a made a plug on the PCB. Now I have a standard swap out for all my CROs. The other big issue is screen burn in. I did find an ebay seller a while
ago who had (has?) brand new CRTs, and quite cheap. Easy to fit. Swapped out a FDD once, no issue. Definitely NOT worth it now, besides we have
direct port connections. I've tried replacements, but the screen SIZE and resolution is hard to beat.

[grumpydoc]

RTC battery is mostly sorted, have found a close item from Farnell - physically a bit smaller, 65mAh rather than 90 but will fit PCB.

However an odd thing happened when I swapped it into the 9354T (the TM's battery is OK as it happens) - put new battery in and the 'scope wouldn't boot, fiddled around a bit including putting the old battery back but no joy. Left the 'scope on the bench overnight and mysteriously it booted fine the next day. I might have another go with a couple of flying leads to a backup even though the current battery is dead.

Encoders: It's the two "zoom" encoder shafts which are snapped, These are Bourns  "ECW" series, one with detent "clicks" and one with a smooth non-detent action. Mouser stock the non-detent version but the detent version is a special order item with a MOQ of 300. Wound up with two of the detent version with 6mm shafts. ebay not much joy here in UK so might as well buy from Mouser as their shipping is reasonable.

Knobs - can't find anything which fits the .185" split shaft anywhere in the UK, or indeed anywhere; yes did try ebay. This is partly the reason I got the "wrong" shafts on the encoders. Found some OKW knobs from Conrad which aren't too far off. Slightly broader at the base (14.5mm vs 12mm approx) and a slightly different grey but I think they'll look OK.

Floppy: not sure I'll put a lot of energy into fixing the floppies. The 9345T drive works but doesn't pass the built-in test. Have tried new disks in case my 20 year old, alternately baked and frozen in the garage ones were shot but no joy. Also tried a different drive (still have a couple lying around) but much the same. Might swap the controller card from the 9354TM but that's about as far as I'll take it. The drive on the 9345TM is toast (sounds like the spindle lubrication has gone sticky).

I just need to find some time to get the old panel out and fit the new bits to it.

[madworm]

I'm trying to ZOOM into a signal captured in single-shot mode.

* 1st attempt: initial time base of 25.0µs/div (FAIL)

After the trace has been captured I rotate the encoder 1 click to the right. The pile of junk immediately jumps to 1.0µs/div and just beeps...

* 2nd attempt: time base of 1.0µs/div (OK)

Same procedure as above. And this time I can indeed zoom in and out without problems. It only beeps when trying to go out of range (e.g. 5.0µs/div and larger values - but that is expected behaviour).



I want my money back!

[madworm]

I've started a new blog. It is exclusively dedicated to the fabulous Lecroy WaveAce224 and its issues and bugs. For the time being it is just a mirror of my regular Lecroy posts on my blog, but in a more condensed form ;-)

Maybe I can raise some awareness in some heads...

www.waveace224-sucks.com

[saturation]

I'm amazed at the amount of info you've amassed on this model.  I hope LeCroy gives you a new scope in response, with all the issues you've raised corrected or at least refund your money.  If not, they'll have a blog full of its unintended features

[Bored@Work]

I hope LeCroy gives you a new scope [...] with all the issues you've raised corrected

Well, that requires they are willing and able to correct them. Even if they are willing they might lack the skills. Or, much worse, have to go to Atten/Siglent with their hat in their hand, and beg them for a firmware update.

[madworm]

The fact that the last firmware update is more than 2 years old tells a story of its own.

I simply can't believe that I'm the only one who has noticed these issues. It is possible, but quite unlikely. Maybe I'm the only who's complaining openly about it.

[madworm]

And another one!

It got a bit warm today, so maybe that was the cause. Maybe... I call it 'eternal boot screen'.

Enjoy the video, if that is possible at all. I cut out most of the self-calibration part. The rest is uncut.

[madworm]

Well, I have a feeling it was the timebase setting. If you look closely, at the beginning of the video it was set to 50s/div, later the auto-mode changed it to something a lot smaller and the boot screen disappeared as usual. I'll have to verify this later.

It may not strictly be a bug, but it is still pretty darn idiotic for the boot screen to wait until such an extremely long sweep is over. Why does it even start a sweep before the boot screen is gone? Thinking about it again, it fits into the whole picture of this device. It definitely has not seen any in depth testing... I'm certain of that fact.

I think I will test my next scope in person before handing over the money. And if I should ever find a pot of gold (or equivalent) somewhere... I WILL get a Chainsaw and cut this darn thing in half.

[Bored@Work]

Why not cut your losses now, and dump that LeCroy-branded Atten/Siglent junk? At least if you value your mental health.

I don't think LeCroy gives a shit, and after they got sold there is maybe no one there caring about the brand's reputation. Greasing up to the new owner is more important now than taking care of the technical things and the reputation.

[madworm]

When I have sufficient funding available, I will look into replacing this thing. Currently that is not the case ;-(

And to whom might I sell this thing without committing a horrific sin? Unless I find someone working at LeCroy who needs a scope for some important work. They can have some of their own medicine ;-)

In the meantime all I can do is document and rant and complain as loudly as I can - trying to prevent people from buying this abomination. If they want me to quit making new videos, all I need is a full refund and they can have it back. But I won't take down the videos...

[madworm]

Maybe... once I have replaced it with something better... I should send it to Dave to do a review and ask for a destructive tear-down.

Or even better: send it to photonicinduction at let him 'pop' it with a couple of thousand volts. I would surely enjoy THAT. And the sad remains would get sent to LeCroy headquarters - including a copy of all videos + documented bugs. That's a nice dream to have...

[T4P]

How much did you spend ITFP?

[madworm]

In terms of money the 224 cost me close to 2k€ (including tax) - and that was a promotional offer. Regular price is about 20-25% above that. Fixing the broken probe ground clip was a lot cheaper... I'd really love to see sales numbers on these units. There's got to be enough people out there to start a shit-storm.

To get an Agilent with the same specs (4CH, 200MHz) I guess I would have to shell out at least 5k€ or thereabouts. And that probably wouldn't give me protocol decoding. Not that I desperately need it, but it's a nice feature. But they just love to charge you through the nose for those extras.

[T4P]

On the good side of the rainbow, you get what you pay for.
I just checked, there is a DSOX2014A available for 3.2k SGD
... time for LeCroy to wake up
Oops, i was supposed to say X2024A but that doesn't have 2GSPS anyway 
anyway the DSO1024A i assume is a much better thing then the LeCrap anyway
Being a rigol rebrand*

[madworm]

Argh... stop it already... compared to the Agilent you've mentioned the Le@#!$ 224 is a sad heap of ... - and I'm sure they know it.

[Hypernova]

Dude, at this rate I'm starting to wonder if some day I might read some news article about a angry dude charging into Lecroy head office bashing the poor front desk lady's head in with an oscilloscope. 

[madworm]

I won't harm an innocent front desk person, but I can't really promise that if I should meet the one(s) responsible for quality control.

I'm much more likely to annoy them on an electronics exhibition - IF they should dare to have the 224 on display and powered up - OH, I would LOVE that ;-)

There's already one company that I have seriously angered. I had a phone conversation with a nice sounding lady and there was a 'slight' misunderstanding. It turns out I was talking to the boss' daughter. Then their boss gave our 'big boss' a phone call... On the next exhibition I met 'her' and instantly changed direction. Fortuitously I had removed my name-badge before she could've read it.

[madworm]

And another one.

This is again caused by the trigger-system blocking the WHOLE scope until a long sweep is over. Only way out: power it off.

[madworm]

Boot-screen update. Now it's verified. The boot-screen timeout does depend on the timebase setting. Correlation factor is very close to 1 ;-)

Madness...

[0xdeadbeef]

I hope you are aware that this piece of crap was developed by Atten and I would assume that any engineer working for LeCroy feels about as much shame for this product bearing the LeCroy logo as you feel anger about its flaws. If at all, curse the controllers and managers who made the decision to rebrand crap and sell it for preposterous prices.

Anyway, though I admit this could hurt your Karma quite a bit, I would assume that selling in on eBay to some innocent fool and getting an HMO2024 instead would lower your blood pressure and increase your life span quite a bit.

[madworm]

Once I have the money... I WILL get a replacement. Until then, I WILL RANT.

And if LeCroy technical staff feel ashamed of this abomination, I have succeeded - at least partially. I don't think I will 'reach' the management dudes, they don't know anything about reputation, quality and manners. All these characters care for is their pay-check and company revenue.

[Nermash]

Elektronica 2012 Munich is scheduled for November, and LeCroy will be there. Perfect opportunity for demonstration of "features" on the WaveAce lineup:) Even better, try contacting forum user free_electron, he has several pages of faults found on their top end models. Imagine crashing 50k $ LeCroy scope on the most important electronics fair in Europe, preferably in front of other visitors:) Priceless!

[T4P]

Elektronica 2012 Munich is scheduled for November, and LeCroy will be there. Perfect opportunity for demonstration of "features" on the WaveAce lineup:) Even better, try contacting forum user free_electron, he has several pages of faults found on their top end models. Imagine crashing 50k $ LeCroy scope on the most important electronics fair in Europe, preferably in front of other visitors:) Priceless!

Nermash ... guaranteed to guide people to crash LeCrap scopes since ... 2010

[madworm]

Hmmmm... 30€ for the ticket + gas.

Might be a good idea. I haven't heard from them for quite a while since my last support request. I should remind them what 'support' is all about - even for their low-end gear.

Maybe I will find a firmware bug to permanently brick the scope until then. 

;-) or ;-( - I don't know...

[madworm]

And another one! No, just kidding ;-)

Today I found an email in my inbox... it has the word "refund" in the subject line.

I will read it tomorrow while sipping my breakfast tea.

[madworm]

Turns out the sender was the current CEO of Lecroy - Thomas H. Reslewic.

I'm glad that LeCroy have taken action in this matter. Maybe they will take the chance and even re-evaluate this device.

End of story: a full refund and no legal threats, neither from them nor from me ;-)

---

Now I'll be looking for a new digital scope - again... 4CH, 200MHz - should be rock-solid and no bugs please.

[saturation]

That's great.  Someone listened to all your complaints.  Are they taking the scope back?  After all your work, it did pay off.

Turns out the sender was the current CEO of Lecroy - Thomas H. Reslewic.

I'm glad that LeCroy have taken action in this matter. Maybe they will take the chance and even re-evaluate this device.

End of story: a full refund and no legal threats, neither from them nor from me ;-)

---

Now I'll be looking for a new digital scope - again... 4CH, 200MHz - should be rock-solid and no bugs please.

[madworm]

Yes, I'm very glad too.

I don't know yet if they want the scope back, but I assume they do. I will certainly try to hand it back. That is better for my karma.

[T4P]

Good one mate, now buy a DSOX3000
you won't regret it

[Hypernova]

Are you allowed to post more from the email?

[poorchava]

This issue with long sweep time is typical for atten design. I have "original" Atten branded 2x25meg scope and it shows the same behaviour with triggering on long time base.

[madworm]

There's really not much text in the message. It's a one-liner.

Mr. Reslewic offered me a full refund, requested my contact data to get the process going, and said he was sorry that I'm not happy with the device. He closed with "My Apologies..." and 'signature'.

My answer was a bit longer than that. I took the chance to point him to one of the really silly issues with that scope (trigger hold-off adjustment with a SLOOOOW knob) - hoping that it will get through and be fixed.

[madworm]

This issue with long sweep time is typical for atten design.

Failure by design

I'm pretty sure they could have avoided that. I assume the buttons trigger some sort of interrupt, so it could easily stop an ongoing sweep.

[Hypernova]

Another thing: Atten was actually sued by Rigol for stealing their designs a few years ago. Check out this chinese page with some photos comparing the two models.

The ATTEN-ADS7000 design is stolen wholesale from the RIGOL-DS5000
http://www.eefocus.com/xmeasure/blog/09-05/169569_a8333.html
Chinese forum post with close up pics of PCB comparing what Atten used for their WaveAce design to Rigol's original.
http://www.amobbs.com/thread-3538943-1-1.html

Whereas Rigol is trying to break the stigma of chinese crapware Atten is just a typical chinese tech copy cat.

This explains why Lecroy can't fix the problem since not even Atten have a full grasp of how their own (read: Rigol's hardware) scopes work.

[madworm]

And therein lies the fallacy of hurriedly expanding their low-end range of scopes. Someone made the decision to just buy and re-brand Atten hardware and firmware - apparently without doing even a minimum of useability tests.

If Rigol would have been a better source I don't know. Is Rigol known to release updates and fixes for their own gear?

They would have fared better if they had just extended their WaveRunner scopes towards the low-end range and offered an affordable upgrade path. Assuming these are in-house jobs...

[Hypernova]

Rigol continues to release new firmware for the DS1052 scopes even this year, I think that says it all.

[Bored@Work]

If Rigol would have been a better source ...

Rigol was/is in bed with Agilent. It depends if their deal with Agilent would permit them to supply to other manufacturers, too.

[madworm]

Wouldn't Agilent like to be payed by LeCroy for fixing their low-end scopes?

Argh! I just can't make up my mind... currently I fancy the Hameg HMO2024. Wafeforms/s is not really great, but bus-decoding + math options are affordable. Not that I really need that, but its sooo nice. I'll probably change my mind in 5 minutes again.

I could spend all day buying scopes, but only if I get to play with them.

[Bored@Work]

I could spend all day buying scopes, but only if I get to play with them.

Didn't you mean I could spend all day playing with scopes, but only if I don't need to buy them? 

[madworm]

Hmmm. That makes sense too.

The only problem is that once I have found a scope that I like, I won't give it back without force 

[0xdeadbeef]

Rigol continues to release new firmware for the DS1052 scopes even this year, I think that says it all.

Yeah, but the waveform generators from 2010 and still on sale are not supported any more. No Win64 drivers, no updates for NIVISA support. Support people don't know their own products. Good support is something else.

... currently I fancy the Hameg HMO2024. Wafeforms/s is not really great, but bus-decoding + math options are affordable.

In the ~2k€ range and 4ch league there's more or less only the HMO2024 and the Rigol DS4014.Yet if you need protocol decoding, this gets very expensive for the Rigol.
The HMO2024 is a neat little (in the most verbatim sense) scope. Not perfect, but no major show stoppers. E.g. interleaving in 2ch mode (->2MPts/Ch) works only for 2GSa/s which means timebases <= 50µs. When reducing the horizontal resolution to >=100µs, it jumps directly to 500MSa/s and 1Mpts/ch (-> no benefit any more from 2ch mode). Also you can't save full waveforms with the scope, only via the PC tool (which is very basic). And yeah the small rotary knobs feel a little cheap.
Anyway, all the base functionality works very well and there are some neat features. Also the probes are detected automatically.

[jpb]

One alternative might be some of the scopes on Agilents refurb store:
http://stores.ebay.com/Agilent-Remarketing-Solutions-Store?_rdc=1
e.g. the 5000 series, though the official prices for serial decoding are very high (I don't know if the refurb store allows them at a discount)

[madworm]

Hmm. If they expect me to buy gear like that on ebay (including the possible hassle and issues if something goes wrong), I expect them to reduce the prices noticeably.

I certainly won't hand over several k€ for anything bought on ebay, not being able to test it beforehand, without somebody real I can hunt down in case of trouble. Not going to happen.

[Bored@Work]

I certainly won't hand over several k€ for anything bought on ebay, not being able to test it beforehand, without somebody real I can hunt down in case of trouble. Not going to happen.

Tek has their refurbished stuff on the Tek website. http://www.tek.com/buy/used-test-equipment You have to register and ask for a quote. So their marketing can vet you and suck you into the sales funnel.

So I don't know what is worse.

[jpb]

Hmm. If they expect me to buy gear like that on ebay (including the possible hassle and issues if something goes wrong), I expect them to reduce the prices noticeably.

I certainly won't hand over several k€ for anything bought on ebay, not being able to test it beforehand, without somebody real I can hunt down in case of trouble. Not going to happen.

I think it is legit as I was given the link by Agilent after asking about a refurbished item advertised on their UK web-site, they basically said all their refurbished items go through the e-bay store.

Some of them carry a three year warranty (though this seems to vary) and are calibrated so, though I share your concerns regarding e-bay, it is probably ok. Anyway, I'm not pushing it - I have no connection with Agilent and I think though the hardware is discounted the software add-ons are probably full price in which case you could end up paying more for the decoding than for the scope! (I don't know this for certain as I've not made any enquiries), for instance the decode option for one protocol on the 5000 series is over £1k!

I continue to dither on an oscilloscope. The decoding options seem to be very expensive except for the Hameg or Rigol 2000 series but then even with the Hameg if you go for the digital channels as well the cost approaches that of say buying the LeCroy LogicStudio separately and the Rigol 2000 series is only 2 channel so decoding is rather limited anyway.

[RRobot]

Yeah if its 'agilentused' on ebay they are legit. I've bought from them before. Shipping can be slow since the stuff comes from the Agilent factory in Malaysia. The Certiprime stuff has a normal Agilent warranty (3 years? , maybe depends on the product).

The rest you are on your own, but I believe they fully test everything before sending it out and they have a 7 day (see item description) return policy.

I believe they actually are part of Agilent, and believe it or not those prices are heavily discounted.

Not much there for a couple thousand euro though.

[Hypernova]

IMO unless you REALLY want the protocol based trigger in there it's better to use your usual choice of USB LA's. I generally only use the MSO bit as part of signal timing and integrity analysis. MSO were never meant to replace LA's.

And remember you can always use a separate MCU to provide the protocol trigger by pulling a pin when the right packet is received.

[madworm]

I'm not primarily after the mixed-signal stuff. If it is in there, it is a nice bonus. I already have a simple logic analyzer with bus decoding.

I want a good all-purpose DSO without ANY buyers remorse half a year later. The HMO2024 seems to be a good choice. The Agilent 2000X is too limited, the 3000X too expensive.

[EEVblog]

I see that the Lecroy CEO has offered you a refund.
What's to become of the scope?
Sledgehammer rage video? 

Dave.

[madworm]

Well...

As far as I'm concerned, the refund works both ways. As long as I haven't heard from them otherwise, I expect to hand it back to them. It's been a while since I've sent them my reply to their refund offer. Maybe they need some more time to process that...  or they have an overzealous spam filter.

It's still in mint condition. It's even got the protective foil on the LCD screen. Only one ground cable has had it - probably material fatigue in the alligator clip.

As the issues with it are clearly due to its 'magnificent' firmware, I feel somewhat reluctant to punish the hardware by cutting it in half.

[poorchava]

http://de.farnell.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp?N=2008+203922+310082994+310078362+310408620+310201921&Ns=P_PRICE_FARNELL_DE|0&Ntk=PLS_MAN_BRAND_NAME&Ntt=agilent+technologies&Ntx=&locale=de_DE&appliedparametrics=true&getResults=true&suppressRedirect=true&isRedirect=&originalQueryURL=/jsp/search/browse.jsp%3FN%3D2008%2B203922%26Ntk%3DPLS_MAN_BRAND_NAME%26Ntt%3Dagilent%2Btechnologies%26Ntx%3D%26No%3D0%26getResults%3Dtrue%26appliedparametrics%3Dtrue%26locale%3Dde_DE%26divisionLocale%3Dde_DE%26catalogId%3D%26skipManufacturer%3Dfalse%26skipParametricAttributeId%3D%26prevNValues%3D2008%2B203922

basic 4 channel 70meg goes for 1.4k euro. Why would anyone want Rigol

[mikeselectricstuff]

If they want it back I suggest you tell them that they will have to come and get it, and apologise in person!

[EEVblog]

If they want it back I suggest you tell them that they will have to come and get it, and apologise in person!

Indeed!
If the CEO emailed you, then he(she?) can come and get it personally!

Dave.

[madworm]

It would feel awkward to make such a request

A timely exchange of money vs. hardware is sufficient - in a foggy night in the middle of an empty bridge, only bats and a couple of owls as witnesses.

Of course I could also pay them a visit at 'electronica 2012' and dump the thing at their booth in public. But I doubt I would get my money back that way.

[T4P]

http://de.farnell.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp?N=2008+203922+310082994+310078362+310408620+310201921&Ns=P_PRICE_FARNELL_DE|0&Ntk=PLS_MAN_BRAND_NAME&Ntt=agilent+technologies&Ntx=&locale=de_DE&appliedparametrics=true&getResults=true&suppressRedirect=true&isRedirect=&originalQueryURL=/jsp/search/browse.jsp%3FN%3D2008%2B203922%26Ntk%3DPLS_MAN_BRAND_NAME%26Ntt%3Dagilent%2Btechnologies%26Ntx%3D%26No%3D0%26getResults%3Dtrue%26appliedparametrics%3Dtrue%26locale%3Dde_DE%26divisionLocale%3Dde_DE%26catalogId%3D%26skipManufacturer%3Dfalse%26skipParametricAttributeId%3D%26prevNValues%3D2008%2B203922

basic 4 channel 70meg goes for 1.4k euro. Why would anyone want Rigol

I agree with you. But the rigol is 2GS

[madworm]

The story concludes!

Thanks to 'Hilary Lustig' - who obviously has the talent to press the right buttons at LeCroy - I can see the light at the end of the WaveAce-tunnel.

They indeed want the scope back, so no destructive review . A pick-up will be scheduled shortly.

[KTP]

Are you going with the Hameg, Rigol or Agilent as a replacement?

I just looked at the waveace224 specs...they really are met by the DSOX2024, which is about $2700 USD list price vs $2600 USD list price for the 224.

Well, the Agilent has some bettter specs: larger screen, more memory, higher wfps, built in fg.

I should probably have ordered the DSOX2024 instead of the MSOX3024, but one time in my life I wanted not to buy the very bottom end of something or a long outdated model.  I used the TDS210 for about 12 years so I feel I have tried the bottom.

[madworm]

Well, if this were for a business I'd get the 4CH Agilent version. The option to upgrade the bandwidth to 500MHz might come in handy later.

For personal use I can't justify the expenses of any of the Agilent ones with similar specs. The 2000X series is cheaper, but also much more limited. I can get more bang for the buck elsewhere. 50000 waveforms/s is nice, but not everything.

Currently I'm happy to get the extra money into my bank account and will probably go for the Hameg HMO2024 at some point. Upgrading to mixed signal is affordable and I can do that later. It's a German company, so I don't expect to have any issues with unreachable support. I could pester them in person if I really had to.

[T4P]

At least the MSO upgrade on the hamegs don't cost a bomb ...
I really like that about Hameg, but then again, i'm still unbiased 

[KTP]

Hmmm, the Hameg HMO2024 looks very nice, but it is priced actually higher than the DSOX2024 ($2700 vs $3300 USD).  I guess if you are going to fully option it out then it might come in cheaper in the end.

I think if the DSOX3000 series did not exist it would make the DSOX2000 series look a lot better.  People don't like knowing their scope has been limited.  I know it would bug me quite a bit to have bought a 70mhz X2004 and know that it is just a few software bits keeping it from being 200mhz.

[madworm]

The Hameg is cheaper when fully loaded.

The 2000X would be much more attractive to me, if stuff like bus decoding were available. But to me it looks like it has been cut down artificially - and quite a bit too much IMO. And the options are waaay too costly for me.

In one of Dave's videos it was shown that the 2000 series shares the button layout with the 3000 series. As a result of this pressing an 'unused' button causes stuff like "This option is not available... blah blah blah", which is enough reason for me NOT to buy it.

[KTP]

Yes, I think they made a mistake by including these buttons and things in the x2000 series and not enabling them.

It would kind of be like buying a Porsche with a software limited 100HP.  You know the good stuff is under the hood, but Porsche wants $20,000 to turn on the additional 200 or whatever HP.  Agravating.

I am hoping that eventually some of the options on the x3000 (and x2000) are offered cheaper.  Maybe in a year or two after they have recooped some development costs they can offer a combo package to current owners to fully option out their scopes for something less than insanity $.

[Bored@Work]

The 2000X would be much more attractive to me, if stuff like bus decoding were available. But to me it looks like it has been cut down artificially - and quite a bit too much IMO.

Shush. Don't say this to loud. Last time I mentioned that I hate Agilent selling the stuff piecemeal I was accused of being a freeloader and wanting everything for free. While all I want was less hassle to order one in my job.

(We have a separate organization responsible for licenses. Everything containing the word "license" needs to be run through them in addition, requiring additional paperwork, and approval. As if I am really keen on wasting my time to run a fucking DMM or ARB extension license through these idiots, who barely know what I am talking about and ... ah well, fuck it.)

[madworm]

Ah, procurement departments... you've just got to hate them.

It would really be nice to have folk who actually know (or should know) how to deal with strange customs forms and all that bureaucrat lingo and just say to them: "Make it so!" But from my personal experience I can say that I could get things done without them much quicker, well except customs 'formalities'.

Writing in-house order forms for stuff worth a couple of hundred bucks, waiting for bean-counter approval, "are you sure you really need THIS part?", yadda yadda yadda... "we'll add your parts to the next (bi-monthly) combined order to distributor XZY"... consolidating shipping costs!

[madworm]

IT IS DONE!

The hardware was shipped to LeCroy Switzerland and a few bits and bytes have been transfered to my bank account.

I've attached 2 photographs of the location near Geneva. Thanks to Google streetview. At first glance one could come to the conclusion that they also sell microwave ovens there, but I guess they're just scopes with extra-large screens.