EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: eti on December 19, 2021, 06:26:48 am
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Why would anyone be ✌️“reviewing”✌️a MANUAL ranging dmm? 🤨
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LxHLuqIi3g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LxHLuqIi3g)
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As a paid promotion, presumably
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Why would anyone be ✌️“reviewing”✌️a MANUAL ranging dmm? 🤨
So that he gets more free meters?
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Myself, and not for the reasons mentioned.
In peripheral economies, the amount of people that buy manual range meters is still significant - several of my fellow countrymen (and others from Argentina) still look after them, since the local market still puts a higher price tag on autorange models.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vflqaq4BWS8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vflqaq4BWS8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm02BG_wc4c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm02BG_wc4c)
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yeah right manual ranges ... i hope they do know how to avoid mistakes by overranging them in the inputs, say 200volts in the 20v range ...... hope the meter can take some abuse ??
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In the early days of affordable hand held Auto ranging meters they were considered a compromise solution offset by convenience. The Auto ranging was slow and the measurement accuracy was often inferior to manual ranging meters. That was in the 1980’s though ;D
I think most of my meters are auto ranging now but I do have a few that are manual ranging. Multimeters have got faster at selecting the correct range and displaying the result. There may still be a measurement speed advantage with some manual ranged multimeters though as auto ranging tends to start on the highest range and step down to the most appropriate range for measurement. That introduces a small delay ?
I agree that there seems less reason to have manual ranging than in the 1980’s but there must be a market for such as no company wants to produce a product that has no customers wanting to buy it!
Fraser
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yeah right manual ranges ... i hope they do know how to avoid mistakes by overranging them in the inputs, say 200volts in the 20v range ...... hope the meter can take some abuse ??
There are perfectly good manual range meters, like the BK 391A, that are as good as anything else but just don't have autorange. Some people may prefer manual ranges and they're fully protected just like any other meter.
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My students in the 1st year of the technical university, usually buy manual range DMMs because of their lower price.
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... and the useful extra discipline of thinking 'now what sort of value an I expecting here?'.
yeah right manual ranges ... i hope they do know how to avoid mistakes by overranging them in the inputs, say 200volts in the 20v range ...... hope the meter can take some abuse ??
No, that's not how it works. ::) Input protection is operational whatever, it's just the range that's locked.
Now if you were using a moving coil analogue meter, then your comment would have some validity.
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It depends on what you are using it for if manual or auto ranging is better suited. Autorange is more like some extra compfort, but can also come with down sides: you sometimes want 2 reading in the same range to calculate a difference. Switching ranges can add errors. Another point is autoranging with amps. This is usually a bit of a compromise and may lead to higher errors in some ranges.
The modern meters usually have good protection on all the voltage ranges. So even 300 V applied when in the 200 mV range should not cause a damage.
Ideally this also applies to the ohms ranges, though here things can be a bit different between meters. Measuring the mains resistance normally does not cause smoke signals, but there is a chance for failure and so better avoid it.
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... and the useful extra discipline of thinking 'now what sort of value an I expecting here?'.
yeah right manual ranges ... i hope they do know how to avoid mistakes by overranging them in the inputs, say 200volts in the 20v range ...... hope the meter can take some abuse ??
No, that's not how it works. ::) Input protection is operational whatever, it's just the range that's locked.
Now if you were using a moving coil analogue meter, then your comment would have some validity.
It was kind of amusing when someone wrapped the needle around the end-stop post after forgetting to change ranges. :-\
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Even the analog (moving coil) meters were usually quite robust. So 200 V in the 20 V range should usually not be a real problem (at least for a limited time), though 200 V in the 2 V range may or may not be OK. The meter movement itself is usually protected by back to back diodes, but resistors can overheat and take some damage.
An autoranging meter also must be protected to be able to measure the full range when in the lowest range. This is inherent, as starting low (e.g. open probes) is a common case before probing a high voltagte. Manual ranging meters usually offer that much protection, at least for the voltage ranges.
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Irrc, the original mechanical cutout mechanisms on the earler AVO 8s were set to trip at 10 times FSD (even higher in reverse) and they would survive that just fine. I saw a few people wrap the needle of the cheap plastic movements used in the late ones though!
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AVO 8's were great meters for their time and I still value my Mk5 for its 3KV range. 8)
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Autoranging is too slow, many DMM's firmware has a crappy algorithm that takes forever it seems. By time it flips through the ranges and the LPF settles, it can be annoyingly slow.
I know what voltage or resistance to expect lol.
I use manual ranging multimeters when I'm in a hurry or there is an intermittent that causes range hunting.
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Autoranging is too slow, many DMM's firmware has a crappy algorithm that takes forever it seems. By time it flips through the ranges and the LPF settles, it can be annoyingly slow.
I know what voltage or resistance to expect lol.
I use manual ranging multimeters when I'm in a hurry or there is an intermittent that causes range hunting.
You can manually set the range on any autoranging multimeter. The issue with these cheap meters is that they have lot more of smaller PCB rotary switch contacts which are way less reliable that those in autoranging multimeters. Partially because there are a lot more of them are involved into input circuit switching and with small gaps between them.
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I'm not sure if this an automatic vs manual transmission kind of thing? There's many manual-ranging beasts out there, still.
The almost fully automatic "smart" - one button kind of thing, multimeters out of china such as ANENG V01A-V04A (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33004885200.html) I have not tried. I think they are easier and less intimidating for laymen to just turn on and use.
Disadvantage of the latching relay is the HV spacings are not there between contacts and coils, and they switch if you bump them.
I do laugh at my old manual ranging DMM's because they have no firmware (bugs) and give me a reading in a few hundred msec. Hate to say it but they are proving better than modern stuff for service/repair work. On a fixed range I can watch a capacitor charge up, or poke around a bad connection. No firmware delay with a continuity beeper, it's instant.
So manual-ranging multimeters might also include benefits of "no MCU" those with ICL7126/9 etc. ADC.
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Why would anyone be ✌️“reviewing”✌️a MANUAL ranging dmm? 🤨
I assume for the free meters and what ever other perks they get.
Let me guess, half hour of blabbing about how great it is and what an expert they are, mixed with some sound effects. :-DD :-DD
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yeah right manual ranges ... i hope they do know how to avoid mistakes by overranging them in the inputs, say 200volts in the 20v range ...... hope the meter can take some abuse ??
I used manual ranging meter as the only meter before. Today I still have the Simpson 260 and Fluke 8050a. You just have to be careful. Manual ranging isn't much of a hindrance.
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Why would anyone be ✌️“reviewing”✌️a MANUAL ranging dmm? 🤨
Manual meters are still a thing. e.g. for test stands where you absolutely want the same range every time without having to dick around. I've seen meters with the range switches taped in place and you just operate the on/off button.
Alrthough of course for such a thing a review it pointless. Some people still prefer them though.
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Autoranging is too slow, many DMM's firmware has a crappy algorithm that takes forever it seems. By time it flips through the ranges and the LPF settles, it can be annoyingly slow.
Get a better meter...? :-//
You can manually set the range on any autoranging multimeter.
This, too.
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Let me guess, half hour of blabbing about how great it is and what an expert they are, mixed with some sound effects. :-DD :-DD
I only flicked through it randomly and basically, yes.
It was all classics, eg. Accuracy test of a 1k resistor:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/mr-loud-reviews-manual-dmm-129318127995/?action=dlattach;attach=1354377;image)
"Beauty!"
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Autoranging is too slow, many DMM's firmware has a crappy algorithm that takes forever it seems. By time it flips through the ranges and the LPF settles, it can be annoyingly slow.
Get a better meter...? :-//
I notice Eastern Europeans like their manual ranging multimeters, not sure if it's due to cost or tradition. ICL712x works OK for me when I need speed.
Autoranging algorithm is secret sauce, a few patents on it even. Probably one reason Brymen cling to their firmware as well.
If you switch to manual ranging, and need to range down, it's alot of button presses and beeps. Yeesh. Can't have an up/down button on a handheld multimeter, press beep press beep press beep UGH
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Today many manual range meters uses the same chip and input network as a autorange meter, the chip just has a different program in it. One clear indication of this is when frequency and capacitance is auto range, but the rest is manual.
The cheapest manual range meters often lacks a real rectifier and uses a single diode instead, these meters lacks AAC and low voltage AC ranges, because they will not work with only a diode.
Most autorange meters can be switched to manual range if faster readings are desired or a value is swinging around the range change value.
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This brings up the question, what is the BEST manual range meter on the market?
I don't think there is a single big name manual range digital meter on the market?
CEM or UniT maybe?
Uni-T have a surprising large range of manual meters. None are CAT IV though that I could find.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61ywM8hj1pL._AC_SX522_.jpg)
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This brings up the question, what is the BEST manual range meter on the market?
I don't think there is a single big name manual range digital meter on the market?
Fieldpiece (https://www.fieldpiece.com/product-category/electrical-meters/) have a few manual range meters which appear to be popular with electricians and HVAC&R techs, some have clamp and other attachments. :-DMM
Something else to note is that min/max on some auto range meters doesn't work unless the anticipated or a higher range is selected beforehand. :-BROKE
Edit: Image
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Uni-T have a surprising large range of manual meters. None are CAT IV though that I could find.
Uni-T make some with a gazillion positions on the dial. This is the real problem with manual-ranging meters - you can only add so many measurement ranges to them before it gets ridiculous.
This brings up the question, what is the BEST manual range meter on the market?
Aneng make a really big one: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33005381639.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33005381639.html)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/mr-loud-reviews-manual-dmm-129318127995/?action=dlattach;attach=1354514;image)
It claims to be CAT IV 600V, the safety certificate can be found on this page: https://zotektools.com/products/ztm0/ (https://zotektools.com/products/ztm0/) :popcorn:
(It obviously isn't though, the fuses inside are only 250V)
Review here: https://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMAnengV7%20UK.html (https://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMAnengV7%20UK.html)
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Manual ranging isn't much of a hindrance.
Seeing more resistors with no markings.
Resistors with no markings (or with markings that is hard to see) isn't a problem with manual ranging meter at all.
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Oooooh... I just saw Aneng has a new ultra-thin manual range meter.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003536067154.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003536067154.html)
( Edit: And a soldering iron! (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/aneng-makes-a-soldering-iron!/msg3885401/#msg3885401) )
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Resistors with no markings (or with markings that is hard to see) isn't a problem with manual ranging meter at all.
But it's slower and more fiddly than auto-ranging.
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Resistors with no markings (or with markings that is hard to see) isn't a problem with manual ranging meter at all.
But it's slower and more fiddly than auto-ranging.
Auto ranging is useful I didn't say it's not but manual ranging isn't a big disadvantage compared to other missing features. For me I would trade accuracy for auto ranging any time. So for a cheap meter manual ranging is a very small compromise in my opinion. I am happy with my Fluke 8050a and being an AC only meter does bother me but not its manual ranging. It's accuracy is on par with my newer meter like the Fluke 87V, 189 or 289.
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This brings up the question, what is the BEST manual range meter on the market?
I don't think there is a single big name manual range digital meter on the market?
This has to be a contender with 4.5 digit, 0.05%, CAT III/1000V (possibly a questionable rating), 20A current and a separate power button so you can leave it in a set range.
https://www.bkprecision.com/products/multimeters/391A-test-bench-true-rms-dmm-with-protective-rubberized-case.html (https://www.bkprecision.com/products/multimeters/391A-test-bench-true-rms-dmm-with-protective-rubberized-case.html)
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This has to be a contender with 4.5 digit, 0.05%, CAT III/1000V (possibly a questionable rating), 20A current and a separate power button so you can leave it in a set range.
Indeed this should be almost mandatory on manual range meters. Even some cheap M830B-clones have it.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/harbor-freight-cen-tech-90899-small-teardown/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/harbor-freight-cen-tech-90899-small-teardown/)
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This brings up the question, what is the BEST manual range meter on the market?
I don't think there is a single big name manual range digital meter on the market?
Although Greenlee and Klein are not big name *T&M* brands, they are big name brands.
Greenlee DM-25
https://www.greenlee.com/us/en/dmm-600v-ac-dc-dm-25-dm-25 (https://www.greenlee.com/us/en/dmm-600v-ac-dc-dm-25-dm-25)
Klein MM300
https://www.kleintools.com/catalog/multimeters/digital-multimeter-manual-ranging-600v (https://www.kleintools.com/catalog/multimeters/digital-multimeter-manual-ranging-600v)
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Wow, a surprising amount of good options in the manual ranging category! :o
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Oooooh... I just saw Aneng has a new ultra-thin manual range meter.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003536067154.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003536067154.html)
Not the TRANSISTOR TESTER! :scared:
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Thin is the new thick loll
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Oooooh... I just saw Aneng has a new ultra-thin manual range meter.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003536067154.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003536067154.html)
Not the TRANSISTOR TESTER! :scared:
Aka the “Noob confuser”
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Manual meters are still a thing. e.g. for test stands where you absolutely want the same range every time without having to dick around. I've seen meters with the range switches taped in place and you just operate the on/off button.
That's about the only legitimate use of one that I can think of.
An auto meter with a proper on/off switch would work for that, too.
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Am I the only one who finds it a bit confusing, or at least not quite intuitive, cycling around the ranges on an autoranging DMM using the manual range button. Watching the dp and annunciators jumping about just seems to throw me a bit, so I usually end up cycling around at least twice.
I much prefer range buttons plus an autorange button, simple on a bench DMM - but I appreciate, not really less practical on a handheld.
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Aneng makes a meter that has both types of range so you're never locked in:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33009371206.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33009371206.html)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/mr-loud-reviews-manual-dmm-129318127995/?action=dlattach;attach=1355456;image)
https://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMAnengV8%20UK.html (https://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMAnengV8%20UK.html)
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Obviously, from the variety of answers, it just amounts to preference and budget, like everything else. I've had both for years and grab what's handy when needed. I will say that the auto-rangers have kept people from thinking about what they are doing, which is not necessarily a good thing. The fact that the inputs are protected is a good thing for that reason. :-\
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Am I the only one who finds it a bit confusing, or at least not quite intuitive, cycling around the ranges on an autoranging DMM using the manual range button. Watching the dp and annunciators jumping about just seems to throw me a bit, so I usually end up cycling around at least twice.
I much prefer range buttons plus an autorange button, simple on a bench DMM - but I appreciate, not really less practical on a handheld.
Sometimes I would have to switch the meter to manual ranging. If you are trying to measure something that turn on and off in less than a second you need to fix the range as it's easier to see. The autoranging would be too slow.
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Am I the only one who finds it a bit confusing, or at least not quite intuitive, cycling around the ranges on an autoranging DMM using the manual range button. Watching the dp and annunciators jumping about just seems to throw me a bit, so I usually end up cycling around at least twice.
I much prefer range buttons plus an autorange button, simple on a bench DMM - but I appreciate, not really less practical on a handheld.
Using the manual range button is easy: Put the probe on the voltage, press the manual range and the meter will select the correct range, if you want next higher range press manual once.
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Using the manual range button is easy: Put the probe on the voltage, press the manual range and the meter will select the correct range, if you want next higher range press manual once.
Yep. I think all the meters I own select the currently-displayed range when you press the "range" button. They don't start from zero.
This makes it very fast/easy to lock the meter to a suitable range for what's being measured.
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I will say that the auto-rangers have kept people from thinking about what they are doing
In what way?
If you're not thinking about what you're doing then a manual meter won't save you.
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I will say that the auto-rangers have kept people from thinking about what they are doing
In what way?
If you're not thinking about what you're doing then a manual meter won't save you.
Not shading on autorange meters, which I prefer, but in my experience automation can lead users to be a bit more complacent and less mentally involved in the specific activity simply because "it works". Extra points if the equipment is cheap or the user does not have direct consequences in case it requires replacement.
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Not shading on autorange meters, which I prefer, but in my experience automation can lead users to be a bit more complacent and less mentally involved in the specific activity simply because "it works". Extra points if the equipment is cheap or the user does not have direct consequences in case it requires replacement.
"Users" will always find a way to do that.
Maybe what you need for those people is more automation. Aneng (again, sorry!) sells little fully automatic meters which are kinda awesome. You just power them on and use them, no range selection needed. They auto-detect Volts/Ohms/Continuity. Switching to amps mode is done by moving the lead to the amps socket and they beep at you constantly (and flash a light) whenever the lead is in that socket and there's no reading on screen. This lets you know you're probably doing something wrong. There's no fuse to blow, just a 400mA current range and polyfuse.
Really really hard to do anything wrong.
eg. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33004749929.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33004749929.html)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/mr-loud-reviews-manual-dmm-129318127995/?action=dlattach;attach=1355891;image)
There's useless to EEVBLOG members because the ranges are quite limited (eg. can't measure voltage below 0.8V) but I'd happily give one to complacent users or the sort of person who knows no electronics and would otherwise be poking at mains sockets with a freebie DT830B.
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Talking about auto ranging I have the Fluke 113 (a low end model) the dial only has 3 positions and one of them is OFF. Now the first position from OFF would automatically measure AC volt, DC volt, Diode Check, and continuity it would select the function automatically.
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Aneng makes a meter that has both types of range so you're never locked in:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33009371206.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33009371206.html)
The number of meters ANENG are pumping out it incredible!
I believe Zotek is the actual designer and manufacturer.
EDIT: Now Zoyi it seems:
https://zotektools.com/zoyi-inside/ (https://zotektools.com/zoyi-inside/)
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I believe Zotek is the actual designer and manufacturer.
EDIT: Now Zoyi it seems:
https://zotektools.com/zoyi-inside/ (https://zotektools.com/zoyi-inside/)
They claim to ship from 5000-8000 per day!
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Meters I have are either Fluke or Zoyi.
i bought a Zoyi manual meter recently so I could be more in control when I am adjusting pots of instruments. For these applicaiton, the ohm range of interest is narrow, value out of the range is not of interest. Also I do not have to keep pressing buttons to cycle to "buzzer" when checking continuity, or to "diode" mode when troubleshooting.
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The number of meters ANENG are pumping out it incredible!
I believe Zotek is the actual designer and manufacturer.
Most Aneng meters are Zotek, yes, very easy to spot which ones they are.
There's a couple that aren't though, or at least, Zotek doesn't put them on their site.
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The number of meters ANENG are pumping out it incredible!
I believe Zotek is the actual designer and manufacturer.
Most Aneng meters are Zotek, yes, very easy to spot which ones they are.
There's a couple that aren't though, or at least, Zotek doesn't put them on their site.
Yes, ANENG seem to have won the the cheap meter marketing wars. Zotek's house brand Zoyi and countless other rebadgers haven't gain the market influence ANENG have.
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I will say that the auto-rangers have kept people from thinking about what they are doing
In what way?
If you're not thinking about what you're doing then a manual meter won't save you.
You needed to read my last line; not thinking while using an auto-ranging meter is less catastrophic (for the meter) than not thinking while using a manual ranging meter. Using a manual ranging meter keeps you more alert, especially after the first few mishaps. JMO
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When you start blowing some 11$ fuses you'll rethink your ways of doing ''manual'' measurements loll
Distractions may occur ...
A manual meter for me, is a needle based one ... we still use one for leakage tests ... but thats all
Posessed tons of meters over the years, and automatic is my way to go.
On my Gossens you have an beautiful auto detection mode between AC-DC-Ohms, Some Fluke have this too, some China brands too :-+
You have/had some meters who posess a audible variable tone based on the input value(s), had this on a Beckman Industrial and a Wavetek and another one, boy this was fun to use and very practical, saddened me to see this functionality dissapeared over time
Peace for the mind loll Not a mental fatigue due to tons of measuremnts a day ... My 2 cents
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You don't blow $11 fuse for using manual ranging meter. I bet you never did blow the fuse because you use the meter in manual range.
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When you start blowing some 11$ fuses you'll rethink your ways of doing ''manual'' measurements loll
Distractions may occur ...
A manual meter for me, is a needle based one ... we still use one for leakage tests ... but thats all
Posessed tons of meters over the years, and automatic is my way to go.
On my Gossens you have an beautiful auto detection mode between AC-DC-Ohms, Some Fluke have this too, some China brands too :-+
You have/had some meters who posess a audible variable tone based on the input value(s), had this on a Beckman Industrial and a Wavetek and another one, boy this was fun to use and very practical, saddened me to see this functionality dissapeared over time
Peace for the mind loll Not a mental fatigue due to tons of measuremnts a day ... My 2 cents
::)
The high current ranges don't get auto-ranged anyway. You plug the lead into the current input rather than the V/ohms etc. If you put an overcurrent through the current input it will blow the fuse regardless of setting. It's got bu**er all to do with auto vs manual ranging. You ought to know that by now.
Some meters mechanically interlock the knob to prevent you switching to other measurement types when the probes are inserted into the wrong jacks but that's all. Again, nothing to do with ranging.
The $11 fuse(s) are there to protect current ranges only, other measurements use PTCs VDRs, resistors, diode clamps etc.
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On my Gossens you have an beautiful auto detection mode between AC-DC-Ohms, Some Fluke have this too, some China brands too!
Isn't that redundant?
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It looks like there are pro’s and con’s associated with both Auto and manual ranging meters but in this debate we should consider the fact that no one is forcing anyone to go full Auto or full Manual :-DD It is personal choice and, as we have seen, there are still companies making modern manual ranging meters so everyone has a choice :-+ It is horses for courses and buyers may select the meter type that they prefer. Back in the 1980’s I bought my first digital multimeter and it was full manual ranging with 3.5 digit LCD display. It was the best model that I could afford and I compared it to the competing full auto ranging multimeter in the shop. The auto ranging meter was inferior in speed of measurement and accuracy but was marketed as the latest technology and people bought it for that reason alone. I needed something accurate that would last and so I bought the manual ranging meter. I have that meter to this day and it is still working fine. I ended up working in that Electronics Emporium and got to test a lot of multimeters and for many years the Auto ranging meters were sold based on their novelty value as the ‘New’ technology to impress others :palm: The manual ranging meters continued to be made and sold and we generally recommended those to anyone wanting an affordable first meter that would last them well. Technology within auto ranging meters improved over time and now you get a very sophisticated product for not a lot of money. The choice between manual ranging or auto ranging is more difficult as a result. I bought a used FLUKE 87 III and have never looked back. It is my main multimeter but it is very expensive to buy new, or even used. I also own many other digital multimeters from the stables of AVO-Megger, ISO-tech (RS). Wavetek, Metrix, UNI-T and Agilent. They all have their pro’s and cons and most are Auto ranging as that seems the most popular. Some are manual ranging and I use them without a second thought. I grew up on manual ranging and switching between a manual and auto ranging meter is no problem for me. I cannot recall the mast time I blew a current range fuse.I was trained to think about a measurement before applying the test probes ;)
As a side comment. My very first multimeter was bought for me by my parents. On the recommendation of the shop I was bought the diminutive Italian made ICE Microtest 80 analogue multimeter. It was full manual ranging with a difference….the user actually plugged the test leads into the required range socket ! No knob for range selection. That meter had full spares support and I have it to this day. Granted it gets no real use and is kept for sentimental reasons. But it still works fine :) I learnt all about selecting the appropriate range with that meter and it has stuck with me all of my life. I am not saying that the Microtest 80 design was better than a rotary knob range selector though…. Far from it ! I did buy the ICE Supertester 680R ‘big brother’ to the Microtest 80 in later years as they are very nice analogue meters.
Fraser
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As I said earlier in the thread manual ranging is small hindrance. Auto ranging is nice but other features are much more important like accuracy.
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I did buy the ICE Supertester 680R ‘big brother’ to the Microtest 80 in later years as they are very nice analogue meters.
The 680R was my dad's multimeter and the first one I ever used. The multiple jacks were quite nice to use and, in those days, such meters were so expensive thst you thought twice or three times before making a measurement.
I think the additional mental work required to select the proper range, read the scale appropriately, count graticules, etc. give some congitive dexterity to the person using the equipment. This is somewhat lost on fully automatic systems...