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| MSO5000 Bode Plot Capability: Is it Good Enough? [Many tips about a 1st scope] |
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| tautech:
--- Quote from: baldurn on October 08, 2022, 07:17:51 pm ---Does anyone have experience with Siglent.eu in this regard? I have bought a few things from them but never had to return anything. --- End quote --- FYI, that is NOT the Siglent EU regional office: European Sales Offices SIGLENT Technologies Germany GmbH Add: Staetzlinger Str. 70 86165 Augsburg, Germany Tel: +49(0)-821-666 0 111 0 Fax: +49(0)-821-666 0 111 22 info-eu@siglent.com www.siglenteu.com |
| tautech:
--- Quote from: balnazzar on October 08, 2022, 11:51:08 am ---Such levels of acoustical noise are not justifiable, in my opinion. The scope is louder than the SDS5000, no matter the fact that being a 500 MHz scope, I imagine the latter having a more power-hungry hardware. --- End quote --- You need give this more thought. Smaller device = more compact design, harder to cool with insufficient real-estate available for a larger, slower running quieter fan. --- Quote ---The 1104X-E has a *small* fan (hence the pitch), probably not of 1st rate quality, and it's not PWM-driven. It goes all the time to maximum rpms. --- End quote --- The fan is quite good quality actually as Noctua replacements have been tried however pushing the same air and pressure they are no quieter. There is a thread you can find where noise reduction options are discussed. --- Quote ---And, if Siglent doesn't ship with screen protectors, that's bad practice too. Not acceptable to get a scope with its screen smeared before 1st use. Even the nafarious Hantek had a protective film. --- End quote --- You think. Good luck damaging the matt toughened glass lens on a Siglent scope and in some effort to reduce plastic waste the screen protection overlay was dispensed with for most models a couple years back. All instruments come in a perforated plastic bag with a desiccant pouch so apart from anyone but the end customer getting fingerprints or grub on the display it's obviously been mishandled. Does it still have the warranty seal intact ? Now many boots are recorded in Sys Info ? Is firmware the latest ? |
| 2N3055:
--- Quote from: balnazzar on October 08, 2022, 06:21:55 pm --- Bottom line: chinese scopes tend to be noisy (and in the case of the MSO5K, not only acoustically...). That's what I don't like about chinese products in general. They tend to deliver stuff that works, but they are always kind of half-finished. How much more would cost to be a bit more attentive to the acoustical noise? Almost nothing. A better fan, PWM control, maybe make the scope 1 cm thicker and put a 120mm fan on the back, exhausting from the side vents.. --- End quote --- It has nothing to do with "Chinese" or "French". It is about inexpensive devices. No matter that it is still significant investment to you and many billions of people, these are very inexpensive devices for what they are and when scopes are concerned. They are also incredibly powerful compared to just 10-15 years ago to devices costing 10x that much. To achieve that, they have to be cost optimized And you seem to not really understand "how much it cost" to do anything when designing and manufacturing a product.. To people with no practical experience doing that job it all seems easy. It's not, and it is most complicated at low end. I've seen people buying inexpensive scopes for 350 € (because it was as much as they can afford) and then putting in a 65€ fans, complaining that such fan should have been inside in a first place..... Because how much would it cost in a first place... Well, 65€, that much... But they wouldn't buy that scope at 415€ because it would be too expensive... New SDS2000X HD is probably acoustically quietest device I ever used. It has best quality materials it makes R&S scopes look like plastic toys. It feels solid, and premium quality when used. When released, first comment on EEVBLOG was that it was expensive... But it is not, it priced according to it quality and performance class... This topic of acoustic noise comes up every now and then. Some people have very quiet environments and have acoustic sensitivities. That happens. Most of the people don't care, or have background noise that makes it non issue. But be sure that no scope with a fan will be completely quiet (except mentioned SDS2000X HD and some R&S scopes from lower end). Worst are more expensive, more powerful models that have lots of heat to dissipate... |
| balnazzar:
--- Quote from: tautech on October 08, 2022, 08:00:53 pm --- You need give this more thought. Smaller device = more compact design, harder to cool with insufficient real-estate available for a larger, slower running quieter fan. --- End quote --- I actually thought about it. I may be the worst rookie about electronics and test equipment, but I have some experience in building silent air-cooled computers. That's why I said they could have put a 120mm fan on the back of it by just making the scope a tad thicker. I also said that the A6000 gpu, no matter being a 300W monster in a much smaller package (w.r.t. this scope) manages to be more silent. Finally, the absence of some control mechanism (pwm?) with fan rpms as function of the scope temperature is hardly justifiable. --- Quote from: tautech on October 08, 2022, 08:00:53 pm ---The fan is quite good quality actually as Noctua replacements have been tried however pushing the same air and pressure they are no quieter. There is a thread you can find where noise reduction options are discussed. --- End quote --- That's very bad news. If I wasn't sufficiently scared into returning it, now I am. If I cannot silence it, I cannot keep it, even if it was the best scope in the world as for the instrument itself. It just drives me crazy. Maybe I can go on for a while with the AD2, save money, and then buy the goddamn RTB2000 within a year or so... --- Quote from: tautech on October 08, 2022, 08:00:53 pm ---All instruments come in a perforated plastic bag with a desiccant pouch so apart from anyone but the end customer getting fingerprints or grub on the display it's obviously been mishandled. Does it still have the warranty seal intact ? Now many boots are recorded in Sys Info ? Is firmware the latest ? --- End quote --- The bag was just closed with adhesive tape. But the scope shows just 3 boots (mine).. Can that counter be zeroed by a competent technician? Software version: 6.1.37R8 OS version: 8.3 Hardware version: 01-05 Thanks. |
| balnazzar:
--- Quote from: 2N3055 on October 08, 2022, 08:19:06 pm ---And you seem to not really understand "how much it cost" to do anything when designing and manufacturing a product.. To people with no practical experience doing that job it all seems easy. It's not, and it is most complicated at low end. I've seen people buying inexpensive scopes for 350 € (because it was as much as they can afford) and then putting in a 65€ fans, complaining that such fan should have been inside in a first place..... Because how much would it cost in a first place... Well, 65€, that much... But they wouldn't buy that scope at 415€ because it would be too expensive... This topic of acoustic noise comes up every now and then. Some people have very quiet environments and have acoustic sensitivities. That happens. Most of the people don't care, or have background noise that makes it non issue. But be sure that no scope with a fan will be completely quiet (except mentioned SDS2000X HD and some R&S scopes from lower end). Worst are more expensive, more powerful models that have lots of heat to dissipate... --- End quote --- As I said above, I try and build my computers with silence in mind, and that's not only because I don't like noise, but also because I do audio stuff with them. Before that, I tried numerous desktop PCs and even some professional workstations. They were all considerably loud. With *less* money than it's required to buy a 2nd rate brand desktop PC, I managed to build a totally silent (idle) or quiet (under stress) workstation. It was sufficient to buy the right fans (which cost not much more than crappy ones, and certainly not 65 eur apiece), being careful about the airflow, selecting the correct power supply, etc... I neither made strange, exotic things, nor I had to resort to liquid cooling. In the hindsight, all these pre-built workstations would have required very modest investments in order to be quiet. It's not that they leave them loud because otherwise they wouldn't be competitively priced. It's just that either they don't care, or they hire incompetent engineers. Probably both. The SDS2000X Plus is much more noisier than the comparably-sized RTB2000 (that can be barely heard according to the reviewer) and even noisier than the little keysight (which has less room for airflow and fan size, as tautech noted..), indicates just bad engineering. If they managed to spare some 50 bucks by leaving it so loud, that was a bad call, period. That scope starts at 1400 eur vat included, and people who buy it wouldn't have been discouraged by a 50 bucks difference if they released a quieter revision. The same stands for the Rigol MSO5000. --- Quote from: 2N3055 on October 08, 2022, 08:19:06 pm ---New SDS2000X HD is probably acoustically quietest device I ever used. It has best quality materials it makes R&S scopes look like plastic toys. It feels solid, and premium quality when used. When released, first comment on EEVBLOG was that it was expensive... But it is not, it priced according to it quality and performance class... --- End quote --- You seem intentioned to defend the brand with your life, more than tautech who sells it.. As I said (and you folks duly observed) I know nothing about test equipment, so I'll leave to others that thing about the R&S stuff being plastic toys. Let me just say that I didn't ask for a device that belittles top-brand scopes into plastic toys. I would have been content with exactly the same scope as the actual 1104x-e, but with a reasonable acoustical performance. That they can make silent stuff when they want, well, that just makes things worse for the brand. --- Quote from: 2N3055 on October 08, 2022, 08:19:06 pm ---This topic of acoustic noise comes up every now and then. Some people have very quiet environments and have acoustic sensitivities. That happens. Most of the people don't care, or have background noise that makes it non issue. But be sure that no scope with a fan will be completely quiet (except mentioned SDS2000X HD and some R&S scopes from lower end). Worst are more expensive, more powerful models that have lots of heat to dissipate... --- End quote --- It's not that I have such incredible sensitivity to noise. It's that this scopes outputs a sound pressure that's comparable to a portable vacuum cleaner. If you want, tomorrow I'll take the car VC at home and make a video with the same iPad at the same distances. It's just not acceptable. Now that you made me think about cars, let me tell you something. One crucial aspect about cars, especially for those who do considerable mileages is how comfortable the driver's seat is. Now, among utility cars (say up to 30K eur) very few do have seat inclination adjustments, or lumbar support adjustments (seat inclination refers to the part of the seat upon which you place your arse). How much, in percentage terms, are these adjustments going to impact over 30K? Nothing, or almost. Still, they don't put them into utility cars. Manufacturer stupidity. A friend of mine works as traveling salesman. It has back pain and suffers from his high yearly mileage. My car has an AGR certified driver's seat and you can adjust whatever you want with it (I paid just 450 more bucks for it when I bought the car), and he observed that it's much more comfortable to drive. I asked why didn't he buy such an option. He replied he didn't even think about such trifles. Customer stupidity. People "don't care", and manufacturers (particularly the bad ones), consequently care even less. Then the same people try a quality product, maybe just slightly more expensive, and then say "oohh, it's another world!". |
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