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MSO5000 Bode Plot Capability: Is it Good Enough? [Many tips about a 1st scope]
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balnazzar:

--- Quote from: 2N3055 on October 09, 2022, 12:08:36 am ---
At moments you sound like a spoiled child...
Pardon my being direct.


--- End quote ---

No problem. In turn, I hope you'll be so kind to pardon me for the same reason.
You sound like a person who has to patronize other people in order to feel happy. Not a big deal, it doesn't automatically makes you a bad person, but you should work upon it.


--- Quote from: 2N3055 on October 09, 2022, 12:08:36 am ---
Listen. It is simple. You obviously didn't ever try RTB2000, SDS2000X HD or any of other scopes you mention.


--- End quote ---

Please don't put things I didn't say into my mouth. Indeed, I did NOT mention the SDS2000X HD. I just linked a review who had the 2000X+ (and not the HD) in it.
That I didn't (even ;D ) try them went without saying, otherwise, having had 1st person experience, it would have been useless to listen to that review.


--- Quote from: 2N3055 on October 09, 2022, 12:08:36 am ---
And SDS2000X HD makes RTB2000 look cheap.. It is so high quality in look and feel. That is just a fact, but you wouldn't know but your prejudices allow you to say I'm lying and am a fanboy...


--- End quote ---

That's the second time you are putting your own words into my mouth. More specifically, I did not say you were lying. On the very contrary, I stated that such utterances were not for me to contradict.

What I do know from my direct experience is that this scope is too noisy to be used. 
Also, I specified in bold text that the scope in itself was better that I expected (at least up to the functionalities I used) and particularly the responsiveness exceeded my expectations.
But once more you seem to ignore the praise, while at the same time you take any criticism personally.


--- Quote from: 2N3055 on October 09, 2022, 12:08:36 am ---
I also tell you from experience that most people have more than one device with fan in it and not so quiet environment and they don't even notice these sounds anymore.


--- End quote ---

So all these people on that thread that are trying to swap the fan inside their 1104x-e are all maniacs of absolute silence. Not to mention those who are actually bothered by the noise, but don't want the hassle and the risks of tinkering with the internals..

I also have a great deal of devices with fans in my study. The are just not so noisy. Not even close.


--- Quote from: 2N3055 on October 09, 2022, 12:08:36 am ---
And your point about manufacturer stupidity and customer stupidity is just your hubris that you know better than anybody and that everything is simple. And you are wrong.


--- End quote ---

No, it's my opinion. Your is that it's just hubris and I'm wrong. That's fine. People are entitled to have their own different opinions. Just try not to take everything personally.


--- Quote from: 2N3055 on October 09, 2022, 12:08:36 am ---
Most customers are price conscious and manufacturers mass produce products for majority. . Simple as that.
So no fancy seats are being installed because most of the people don't need them.


--- End quote ---

You didn't get the point.
The point in telling that story was to atriculate the fact that people often need a thing, but still don't care about it. That's sloppy by any possible evaluation criterion.
Another point was highlighting that manufacturers often avoid to make a product considerably better just to save a few bucks.
Proof: two posts above you'll find a person who installed a 7$ fan inside his scope while regretting not having done it sooner.
You didn't get that also.

If you read here and there on forums, A LOT of people tries to swap the fans inside their scopes. Not 65$ fans, just ~10$ fans. 10$ for the end user. For a manufacturer that orders tons of them is one third of that price.

End note: No bad feelings, but if you try again to steer this discussion towards personal, I'll abstain from replying.
tautech:

--- Quote from: balnazzar on October 09, 2022, 12:30:41 am ---
--- Quote from: Fungus on October 08, 2022, 11:21:36 pm ---
I swapped the fan in my old Rigol. A $7 fan made a huge difference.


--- End quote ---

As I suspected.. This confirms my conjecture about the manufacturer not bothering about quality just to scrape a few dollars more.

--- End quote ---
Fungus speaks through his arse as he knows jack shit about Siglent !

Maybe you ignore my previous report about the same spec Noctua fan is no quieter than what Siglent use = fact #1

2ch SDS1202X-E and SDS11/1204X-E are the same form factor yet run quite different fans, SDS1202X-E being much quieter as it hasn't got the horsepower to cool that SDS11/1204X-E has = fact #2

Half the HW in SDS1202X-E of the 4ch version and less features requires much less cooling = fact#3

Same form factor and very similar case design yet inside they are very different, the 2ch mainboard is horizontal whereas the 4ch model mainboard is vertical. Both use a metal chassis so channel BNC's can be securely fixed to minimize the microphonics that plague cheaper designs = fact #4

Of course you could best match a replacement fan to your ambient temperatures but a manufacturer can't, they must design for all conditions in a worldwide marketplace so the fan can be thought unnecessarily noisy in a cooler climate = fact #5


Stop being a twat and accept that horsepower needs cooling just as it does in a PC where the cheapest methods are certainly not the quietest. You could of course water cool a scope but then it would not be portable.


Then if I had my choice based on $ spend for fan noise and features SDS2104X Plus would be first choice, then SDS5kX or 6kA if budget was no issue or maybe SDS2104X HD but not yet had one on my bench however the 350 MHz version will be here soon for a customer but he has needed to wait for it so only a FW install and our normal probe compensate/checks before it must go to them.  :(
balnazzar:

--- Quote from: jasonRF on October 09, 2022, 12:39:45 am ---
It is not easy to find silent (or nearly-silent) test equipment.  When I was shopping for a scope this year I found that there were few options that were 'guaranteed' to be quiet-enough for me - at least without hearing them in-person.  Compared to the great bang-per-buck units like the sds1104x-e, I found the options were either much more expensive (the R&S already discussed), or had fewer features (eg the fanless Owon sds1000-series which also have inferior performance), or both (eg the fanless Tek 1000C series).   

The main fanless options I found that had deep memory and lots of features were the nicer Picoscopes, but they are not cheap and most people strongly prefer benchtop equipment.   The most 'affordable' deep-memory 4-channel option is the 2406B at $700 US (50 MHz, 1 GS/s, 32 MSample memory, 1 MHz AWG w/ Bode plots) but has been out of stock and backordered everywhere for months as far as I can tell; the least-expensive 4-channel deep-memory models actually in-stock in stores cost about $1000 US (2407B, 3403D).   

--- End quote ---

I was starting to write a reply about the Picos. Take a Pico with good specs. Say 100 MHz, 4chs, 1 GS/s, 128 Mpts.
It sells for ~1100 eur.
It's more than a chinese scope with the same specs, but less, say, than a DSOX1204G.

But the point upon which I'd invite you to reflect upon is that it's a fanless brick completely enclosed by unvented plastic, which is a terrific thermal insulator.
It lacks knobs and a screen but has all the stuff that outputs heat: a beefy processor, the ADC, the memory, etc..

So with a little care it's possible to produce good stuff with a an even better thermal envelope.


balnazzar:

--- Quote from: baldurn on October 09, 2022, 12:54:45 am ---There are no silent chain saws either ;-)

The second is that the way one uses instruments usually is different from the way you use your computer. I realize that there are probably professionals that use this stuff all day long like I do when at work with my computer. But for most at the hobby level you will not be taking measurements 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.

--- End quote ---

Well, there are no silent chainsaws, but there are silent, good scopes. See my reply about the picos, for example. Or, as benchtop go, the R&S RTB2K.

True, one doesn't use a scope 8 hrs a day, but even if you have it turned on for half a hour, you should be able to concentrate upon the work.

In the end, I realize that I cannot justify buying a 3000 eur R&S, even if I save enough money. Not with my current level of experience and competence.
I think that I'll buy a 70 MHz or 100 MHz 4chs Pico within a few months.
I'll miss the buttons & knobs, but I can't really stand the noise.
balnazzar:

--- Quote from: tautech on October 09, 2022, 01:29:49 am ---
Fungus speaks through his arse as he knows jack shit about Siglent !


--- End quote ---

There is no need to turn the conversation into unpleasant.


--- Quote from: tautech on October 09, 2022, 01:29:49 am ---
Maybe you ignore my previous report about the same spec Noctua fan is no quieter than what Siglent use = fact #1


--- End quote ---

I did not ignore it. On the contrary, I stated that that was even more worrying. But consider that Noctua makes a shitload of fans, some of them very high rpm-rated. If someone has put a high-rpm Noctua inside the scope without a resistor, and the scope drives it full steam, of course it will be noisy. But that's just my conjecture..

As for Fungus, if he tells that putting a 7$ fan into his Rigol and that solved the noise, that's a fact as well. Maybe he selected the right fan.


--- Quote from: tautech on October 09, 2022, 01:29:49 am ---
Of course you could best match a replacement fan to your ambient temperatures but a manufacturer can't, they must design for all conditions in a worldwide marketplace so the fan can be thought unnecessarily noisy in a cooler climate = fact #5


--- End quote ---

That's why they should have put a temperature sensor (2$) in it along with a PWM controller.


--- Quote from: tautech on October 09, 2022, 01:29:49 am ---
Stop being a twat and accept that horsepower needs cooling


--- End quote ---

What about the picos (fanless) or the RTB2K (quiet)?
I mean, "if you want silence, you have to open your wallet, cheap stuff is noisy" sounds more convincing.


--- Quote from: tautech on October 09, 2022, 01:29:49 am ---
Then if I had my choice based on $ spend for fan noise and features SDS2104X Plus would be first choice

--- End quote ---

For features maybe. But the review highlighted that it's damn noisy.
The 2K HD is allegedly silent. Allegedly. But it's a 4000$ scope. Out of question.

I'm upset because I'm using the 1104xe and it's indeed a good, nice little scope, like you said days ago. Very good for the price. And yet I have to return it.

Why they had to spoil it with a shitty fan, that really escapes me.
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