Products > Test Equipment
MSO5000 Bode Plot Capability: Is it Good Enough? [Many tips about a 1st scope]
jasonRF:
--- Quote from: balnazzar on October 09, 2022, 01:38:51 am ---
--- Quote from: jasonRF on October 09, 2022, 12:39:45 am ---
It is not easy to find silent (or nearly-silent) test equipment. When I was shopping for a scope this year I found that there were few options that were 'guaranteed' to be quiet-enough for me - at least without hearing them in-person. Compared to the great bang-per-buck units like the sds1104x-e, I found the options were either much more expensive (the R&S already discussed), or had fewer features (eg the fanless Owon sds1000-series which also have inferior performance), or both (eg the fanless Tek 1000C series).
The main fanless options I found that had deep memory and lots of features were the nicer Picoscopes, but they are not cheap and most people strongly prefer benchtop equipment. The most 'affordable' deep-memory 4-channel option is the 2406B at $700 US (50 MHz, 1 GS/s, 32 MSample memory, 1 MHz AWG w/ Bode plots) but has been out of stock and backordered everywhere for months as far as I can tell; the least-expensive 4-channel deep-memory models actually in-stock in stores cost about $1000 US (2407B, 3403D).
--- End quote ---
I was starting to write a reply about the Picos. Take a Pico with good specs. Say 100 MHz, 4chs, 1 GS/s, 128 Mpts.
It sells for ~1100 eur.
It's more than a chinese scope with the same specs, but less, say, than a DSOX1204G.
But the point upon which I'd invite you to reflect upon is that it's a fanless brick completely enclosed by unvented plastic, which is a terrific thermal insulator.
It lacks knobs and a screen but has all the stuff that outputs heat: a beefy processor, the ADC, the memory, etc..
So with a little care it's possible to produce good stuff with a an even better thermal envelope.
--- End quote ---
I don’t know enough about the internals to know whether the Picoscopes can be compared so directly to the Siglent. Certainly there are differences. For example, the sds1104x-e has dual 1 GS/s ADCs while the Picoscopes have a single ADC. But even when comparing to single-ADC bench scopes, much of the processing (for example the FFTs, all of the fancy math channels, and the serial decoding) for the Picoscopes is done in the Picoscope software running on the computer, so less processing is required in the box. Full disclosure: both of my scopes are Picoscopes (2204a, 5244b) and I love them, but I completely understand why many folks would much prefer a bench scope. My work area is virtually silent, but that is also because I do not need high-performance power supplies, external signal generators, multimeters, spectrum analyzers, signal analyzers, etc (I only have low-performance gear besides the fancy picoscope). If you need all of that gear with modern capability, as others have stated, there will be noise.
Jason
JeremyC:
balnazzar, I’m guessing you’re trying to get best what you can get in your budged,
but as of now you aren’t sure what you really need.
I would suggest to stay with the AD2, work with your projects, if you hit a limitation make a comment in your work log.
Review the log after some period of time (3 months?) and you will find what you really need. Otherwise you may end with wasting money.
Fungus:
--- Quote from: tautech on October 09, 2022, 01:29:49 am ---Stop being a twat and accept ...
--- End quote ---
Seriously?
2N3055:
--- Quote from: balnazzar on October 09, 2022, 01:38:51 am ---
--- Quote from: jasonRF on October 09, 2022, 12:39:45 am ---
It is not easy to find silent (or nearly-silent) test equipment. When I was shopping for a scope this year I found that there were few options that were 'guaranteed' to be quiet-enough for me - at least without hearing them in-person. Compared to the great bang-per-buck units like the sds1104x-e, I found the options were either much more expensive (the R&S already discussed), or had fewer features (eg the fanless Owon sds1000-series which also have inferior performance), or both (eg the fanless Tek 1000C series).
The main fanless options I found that had deep memory and lots of features were the nicer Picoscopes, but they are not cheap and most people strongly prefer benchtop equipment. The most 'affordable' deep-memory 4-channel option is the 2406B at $700 US (50 MHz, 1 GS/s, 32 MSample memory, 1 MHz AWG w/ Bode plots) but has been out of stock and backordered everywhere for months as far as I can tell; the least-expensive 4-channel deep-memory models actually in-stock in stores cost about $1000 US (2407B, 3403D).
--- End quote ---
I was starting to write a reply about the Picos. Take a Pico with good specs. Say 100 MHz, 4chs, 1 GS/s, 128 Mpts.
It sells for ~1100 eur.
It's more than a chinese scope with the same specs, but less, say, than a DSOX1204G.
But the point upon which I'd invite you to reflect upon is that it's a fanless brick completely enclosed by unvented plastic, which is a terrific thermal insulator.
It lacks knobs and a screen but has all the stuff that outputs heat: a beefy processor, the ADC, the memory, etc..
So with a little care it's possible to produce good stuff with a an even better thermal envelope.
--- End quote ---
An observation.
Let me start with a fact I think Picoscopes are brilliant. I have 3.
But you forget that Picoscope contains only acquisition engine. No general purpose CPU for U/I, no screen no PSU. It is not good comparison. And they do have fan and make noise. Some do, higher specced ones. And you have to add in whatever noise your PC has. Which in your case will be rather quiet and maybe already on so there is a win.
Taking all in account I would say maybe that is best choice for you, but this all started with a budget and some requirement that steered away from it..
2N3055:
--- Quote from: balnazzar on October 09, 2022, 01:59:07 am ---
--- Quote from: tautech on October 09, 2022, 01:29:49 am ---
Fungus speaks through his arse as he knows jack shit about Siglent !
--- End quote ---
There is no need to turn the conversation into unpleasant.
--- Quote from: tautech on October 09, 2022, 01:29:49 am ---
Maybe you ignore my previous report about the same spec Noctua fan is no quieter than what Siglent use = fact #1
--- End quote ---
I did not ignore it. On the contrary, I stated that that was even more worrying. But consider that Noctua makes a shitload of fans, some of them very high rpm-rated. If someone has put a high-rpm Noctua inside the scope without a resistor, and the scope drives it full steam, of course it will be noisy. But that's just my conjecture..
As for Fungus, if he tells that putting a 7$ fan into his Rigol and that solved the noise, that's a fact as well. Maybe he selected the right fan.
--- Quote from: tautech on October 09, 2022, 01:29:49 am ---
Of course you could best match a replacement fan to your ambient temperatures but a manufacturer can't, they must design for all conditions in a worldwide marketplace so the fan can be thought unnecessarily noisy in a cooler climate = fact #5
--- End quote ---
That's why they should have put a temperature sensor (2$) in it along with a PWM controller.
--- Quote from: tautech on October 09, 2022, 01:29:49 am ---
Stop being a twat and accept that horsepower needs cooling
--- End quote ---
What about the picos (fanless) or the RTB2K (quiet)?
I mean, "if you want silence, you have to open your wallet, cheap stuff is noisy" sounds more convincing.
--- Quote from: tautech on October 09, 2022, 01:29:49 am ---
Then if I had my choice based on $ spend for fan noise and features SDS2104X Plus would be first choice
--- End quote ---
For features maybe. But the review highlighted that it's damn noisy.
The 2K HD is allegedly silent. Allegedly. But it's a 4000$ scope. Out of question.
I'm upset because I'm using the 1104xe and it's indeed a good, nice little scope, like you said days ago. Very good for the price. And yet I have to return it.
Why they had to spoil it with a shitty fan, that really escapes me.
--- End quote ---
Purpose of a fan is to move air. Fact that some people put in fans that don't move enough air to make it silent will compromise thermal integrity of device. Or not, depending whether you're in tropics or Syberia. Manufacturer has to GUARANTEE it will work in full range promised in datasheet.
If you take effort to look at the numbers, very few people bother and think fan needs exchanging. Those that do are in a minority. Nobody is going to make product more expensive for less than 1% of users, compromising sales to 99% users that are quite happy with both device and price. I'm not saying you're stupid for wishing better, but it simply doesn't work that way.
And please will you refrain from statements like "The 2K HD is allegedly silent. Allegedly. ..". That is an example you making a statement that implies I'm lying... I know for fact it is true, not alleged fact. Only statement that is correct from you is that you haven't heard it yourself and you cannot say if would be silent enough for your needs.
And my statements might seem to you like patronizing, but they are simple fact that I know what I am saying and trying to point out facts that are wrong... I don't have to help you, i don't get paid by anybody, nor you, nor any manufacturer or dealer. I don't sell any of this stuff, just a user like you, with a distinction that I have been in this quite long, since the days of CRT scopes. And currently own 7 scopes from different classes, owned more during years, and worked with God know how many...
I also design and manufacture electronics and can tell you it all seems simple until you try it in real life...
I do recognize that you also can, and in fact, do give credit where credit is due. And as I said, I do recognize that you need specific acoustic requirements.
But it is not general case to all users (and this in not my opinion but a fact, from sales channel) and there is no need to call manufacturer or other users names for not having same requirements as you. That is all. You take it as you will.
BUt we get back to beginning. You must define your priorities correctly. And accept that you might not get what you want (need) for a budget you are willing to pay. In which case either budget or expectations must revised. Simple as that. Complaining at length how manufacturers are stupid for not making devices exactly how it suits you and customers are stupid too because not everyone has same needs as you is, firstly pointless. It leads to no solution for you. And it also leads to some people getting bothered by being called names...
And this is my last detour from topic here. As far as I'm concerned all scope advice was already dispensed and we are into endless tangential discussions about meaning of the Universe.
I wish you to find a good solution for your needs, without breaking a bank...
All the best to you.
Summary:
By taking into account revised requirements that heavily emphasize on near silent device, I recommend to OP to make a research into fanless devices (some Picoscopes, I believe R&S had entry level scope that was fanless) or a device that has very quiet acoustic envelope (like R&S RTB2000 or SDS2000X HD), off course all by taking into account budget available. I think enough data was given for OP to make good decision. It would be nice for OP to share his final decision and rationale behind it here in a conclusion, so other users with similar budget and requirements (with emphasis on very acoustically quiet scopes) could benefit from all the effort OP and contributors invested in this.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version