MSO5000 Bode Plot Capability: Is it Good Enough? [Many tips about a 1st scope]

[balnazzar]

Hi Folks.
I'm still being kept awake at night by my nightmarish oscilloscope purchase.

As I mentioned a while ago, I have one grand to spend, And I'm leaning toward the (in)famous MSO5074, to be hacked, because it packs so many things into a single device. Ok, it does nothing really well, but:

- I can live with the dim display.
- I can also live with the sh*tty fan or snap a noctua into it.
- Maybe I can even live with the subpar front end and the noise (just maybe)..

But I need decent Bode plots. Now, of course I've read here and there, and the general opinion is somewhat twofold.. Some say that MSO5K's Bode plot are decent and people who say otherwise are just bashers. Others say that those BP are so bad that they are tantamount to being useless.

I'd like to hear the opinion of someone who has the '5K and actually use it to perform frequency response analysis quite often.

The alternative would be the sds1104x-e with a siglent wavegen, but spending almost the same amount of money for a 7" scope without separate channel control looks unexciting at best, AND I already have the gen (the UNI-T thingy).

Yeah I know that some people managed to make the sds1104x-e work with other brands, but I have no time right now to tinker, and with uncertain results...

And the new Rigol costs as much as the MSO5K without having anything apart from 12bit and a 10" screen (in particular, no bodes...)

Thanks!

[nctnico]

Have you considered getting a specific device for doing bode plots? What kind of frequency range are you after? Any amplitude & dynamic range requirements? The analog discovery is mentioned often as a tool for doing bode plots. From a comparison between various oscilloscopes made by one of the forum members, it seems Siglent's bode plot is rather slow so may not be ideal for doing a lot of bode plots in a short time.

[Fungus]

Some say that MSO5K's Bode plot are decent and people who say otherwise are just bashers. Others say that those BP are so bad that they are tantamount to being useless.

The truth is probably somewhere in between. 

[2N3055]

Some say that MSO5K's Bode plot are decent and people who say otherwise are just bashers. Others say that those BP are so bad that they are tantamount to being useless.

The truth is probably somewhere in between. 

Not really.
Both Siglent front end and Bode plot implementation is much better. And better, lower nose front end attributes to better dynamic range  in Bode plots.
If Bode plot is really important to you Siglent is better choice.

But MSO5000 has some good sides compared to SDS1104X-E.  It has MSO option and decoding more protocols. It might be better choice for microcontroller digital work.
But for pure analog work SDS1104X-E will outperform it.
Individual vertical knobs or single combined one are not important. They make no difference after you get used to it either way..

But let's get back to your incompletely formulated question:
Only thing clear is approximate budget.

What does "decent" Bode plot means? What are you plan to measure, dynamic range (lowest and highest signals), frequency range.... etc etc..  That will define what you need. Maybe you expect (or need) performance that no scope can do but you need to buy dedicated device that is out of your budget. Which is the point where you change expectations..

Best,

[mawyatt]

Have you considered getting a specific device for doing bode plots? What kind of frequency range are you after? Any amplitude & dynamic range requirements? The analog discovery is mentioned often as a tool for doing bode plots. From a comparison between various oscilloscopes made by one of the forum members, it seems Siglent's bode plot is rather slow so may not be ideal for doing a lot of bode plots in a short time.

Having considerable 1st hand experience with the Bode function in the Siglent 2000X+, can say it's quite capable indeed! A little slow, yes, but very versatile.

Siglent has put in considerable effort into this Function, as well as the excellent 2Mpt FFT, and it shows. These functions are for more serious work, not just checking the box for marketing, and not a gimmick function.

We've done various filters, closed loop analysis of complex analog functions, op-amps, and even injection locking oscillator analysis. Here's few threads.


https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/bode-plots-useful/msg3580010/#msg3580010

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-transformer-for-use-with-bode-plots/msg4182022/#msg4182022

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/capacitive-impedance-plots-with-sds2104x-plus-bode-function/msg4335745/#msg4335745

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/injection-locked-peltz-oscillator-with-bode-analysis/msg4424434/#msg4424434

Best,

[nctnico]

I get that you are happy with the tool available to you, but have you tried other tools as a comparison? I have a DSO with bode plot as well but I always use my network analyser for doing bode plots. The network analyser is just more convenient to use.

[balnazzar]

Have you considered getting a specific device for doing bode plots? What kind of frequency range are you after? Any amplitude & dynamic range requirements? The analog discovery is mentioned often as a tool for doing bode plots. From a comparison between various oscilloscopes made by one of the forum members, it seems Siglent's bode plot is rather slow so may not be ideal for doing a lot of bode plots in a short time.

Thanks for the heads up about Siglent's sluggishness at bodeplotting, I wasn't aware of that.

Mh. TBH, I considered the AD2. It matches my requirements (barely, but it's workable). It has other perks, like differential probing (as long as you don't use the BNCs), and with the BNCs it can get to 30 MHz, which is kind of OK. Plus, it has other handy features.
Not to mention the good software, a thing that finds both Siglent and Rigol gravely wanting.

My problem with the AD2 is that I need a scope with at least 3 channels. So, considering some 400 eur for the AD2, I should also buy a 4-ch basic scope (5-600 bucks max). Any advice about this would be welcome, but I think it boils down to the usual couple.. The aforementioned Siglent, or the old (not good old, just old) 1054Z.

You seem to be an experienced contributor.. Tell me one thing: would it be possible to connect both the AD2 and a Keysight 1052A to a computer so that one can use the whole contraption as a 4 ch scope?

Thanks!

[balnazzar]

Not really.
Both Siglent front end and Bode plot implementation is much better. And better, lower nose front end attributes to better dynamic range  in Bode plots.
If Bode plot is really important to you Siglent is better choice.

But MSO5000 has some good sides compared to SDS1104X-E.  It has MSO option and decoding more protocols. It might be better choice for microcontroller digital work.
But for pure analog work SDS1104X-E will outperform it.
Individual vertical knobs or single combined one are not important. They make no difference after you get used to it either way..

[...]

What does "decent" Bode plot means? What are you plan to measure, dynamic range (lowest and highest signals), frequency range.... etc etc..  That will define what you need. Maybe you expect (or need) performance that no scope can do but you need to buy dedicated device that is out of your budget. Which is the point where you change expectations..

Right now I'm learning (as I said, that would be my first scope), so I'll start by tinkering with the frequency response of analog circuits. But an oscilloscope is not a thing that one buys each year. I'm hoping to grow up (electronically speaking) into it, and it has to last many years. But, possibly, without breaking the bank.

One solution would be buying the AD2 for the Bode plots along with the good software that comes with it (and logic & network analyzers) AND the siglent for having a decent 4chs scope with buttons, knobs and a screen...

[balnazzar]

Having considerable 1st hand experience with the Bode function in the Siglent 2000X+, can say it's quite capable indeed! A little slow, yes, but very versatile.

That scope, in its cheapest variant, is 3X more expensive than the SDS1104X-E: I don't think they are comparable.

[tautech]

Having considerable 1st hand experience with the Bode function in the Siglent 2000X+, can say it's quite capable indeed! A little slow, yes, but very versatile.

That scope, in its cheapest variant, is 3X more expensive than the SDS1104X-E: I don't think they are comparable.

Do you ?
Best you have a deeper look at datasheets and here where the 100dB+ of Bode plot dynamic range is displayed:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1x04x-e-bodeplot-ii-(sfra)-features-and-testing-(coming)/

You should also be aware SDS2kX Plus has an inbuilt 50 MHz AWG and therefore already has a stimulus source for Bode plot use whereas with X-E models a stimulus source for Bode plot use is an additional expenditure.

[nctnico]

Have you considered getting a specific device for doing bode plots? What kind of frequency range are you after? Any amplitude & dynamic range requirements? The analog discovery is mentioned often as a tool for doing bode plots. From a comparison between various oscilloscopes made by one of the forum members, it seems Siglent's bode plot is rather slow so may not be ideal for doing a lot of bode plots in a short time.

Thanks for the heads up about Siglent's sluggishness at bodeplotting, I wasn't aware of that.

Mh. TBH, I considered the AD2. It matches my requirements (barely, but it's workable). It has other perks, like differential probing (as long as you don't use the BNCs), and with the BNCs it can get to 30 MHz, which is kind of OK. Plus, it has other handy features.
Not to mention the good software, a thing that finds both Siglent and Rigol gravely wanting.

My problem with the AD2 is that I need a scope with at least 3 channels. So, considering some 400 eur for the AD2, I should also buy a 4-ch basic scope (5-600 bucks max). Any advice about this would be welcome, but I think it boils down to the usual couple.. The aforementioned Siglent, or the old (not good old, just old) 1054Z.

You seem to be an experienced contributor.. Tell me one thing: would it be possible to connect both the AD2 and a Keysight 1052A to a computer so that one can use the whole contraption as a 4 ch scope?

No. But depending on your location, a GW Instek GDS1054B could be a good alternative to buy a decent 4 channel oscilloscope (options can be enabled for free using a key generator available on this forum). For example: https://eleshop.eu/gw-instek-gds-1054b.html

[Warpspeed]

What you require, really depends on the application and test envioronment.
What are you planning to Bode plot ?

Things such as frequency range, noise floor and dynamic range are pretty obvious, and many measuring instruments these days have some excellent features. If you are studying just analog type circuits, amplifiers, filters, servo systems etc... that is all pretty straightforward.

These days switching power supplies are a significant area of interest, and Bode plots are just about a must have, if you wish to maintain your sanity.
Switching supplies are are very Bode plotter unfriendly by being significant producers of wideband noise by the power components.

Trying to resolve a sine wave of a couple of millivolts submerged in hundreds of millivolts of spikes and ripple is something very simple equipment is just not capable of doing.  Its all very well the software being able to plot a nice smooth gain curve over 100db dynamic range, but unless millivolt or microvolt level signals can be resolved beneath huge levels of noise, the pretty plot on the screen is just not going to happen.

Many if not all low end Bode plot systems just use direct analog to digital conversion and some clever number crunching. That works fine for demo purposes by the plotter salesman, but not when trying to make real world measurements on switching power supplies or in really noisy applications.

The only way to do it is with a couple of very narrow band swept filters, similar in concept to a spectrum analyser.  That can be done either with hardware or very sophisticated software to reject everything but the exact test frequency being run through the equipment under test.
All very clever, but it does not come cheap unfortunately.

So a simple low end Bode plotter may be all you need, or it may not work for you at all, depending on the test environment.

[mawyatt]

I get that you are happy with the tool available to you, but have you tried other tools as a comparison? I have a DSO with bode plot as well but I always use my network analyser for doing bode plots. The network analyser is just more convenient to use.

We have a VNA, but often prefer the Bode Function because of the higher impedances and/or voltages and lower frequencies involved. Haven't used any of the other brands Bode functions tho, so can't speak for them. Sure a dedicated High Input Z Lower Frequency Network Analyzer is a better instrument, but that's another instrument and expense, for us the SDS2000X+ has filled that need nicely!!

If you actually use the Bode function in the SDS2000X+ and spend some time with it you will appreciate the performance they've achieved. Like the comment just above about the Frequency Selective measurement capability, don't think they use the Synchronous Sampling, but whatever technique they employed does work well rejecting signals not of interest!!

Best,

[Fungus]

One solution would be buying the AD2 for the Bode plots along with the good software that comes with it (and logic & network analyzers) AND the siglent for having a decent 4chs scope with buttons, knobs and a screen...

Obvious first question: What frequencies and sensitivities do you need for your bode plots? What are you measuring?

Having considerable 1st hand experience with the Bode function in the Siglent 2000X+

When did the 2000X series come into it? That's way over budget.

[2N3055]

One solution would be buying the AD2 for the Bode plots along with the good software that comes with it (and logic & network analyzers) AND the siglent for having a decent 4chs scope with buttons, knobs and a screen...

Obvious first question: What frequencies and sensitivities do you need for your bode plots? What are you measuring?

Having considerable 1st hand experience with the Bode function in the Siglent 2000X+

When did the 2000X series come into it? That's way over budget.

I believe Mike simply speaks of his experience with the product he owns.

Truth is  BodePlot II on SDS2000X + is same algorithms as the one on SDS1000X-E. So Mike's good experience with it is very relevant for both scopes, one within the budget and one that is not.

[mwb1100]

But I need decent Bode plots. Now, of course I've read here and there, and the general opinion is somewhat twofold.. Some say that MSO5K's Bode plot are decent and people who say otherwise are just bashers. Others say that those BP are so bad that they are tantamount to being useless.

I'd like to hear the opinion of someone who has the '5K and actually use it to perform frequency response analysis quite often.

I don't know a damn thing about Bode plots, but there is a youtube with someone generating a Bode plot on an MSO5000 and showing some Bode plot results for various opamps.  The "results" part of the video just shows the final graphs - the time spent plotting the graphs isn't in the video.



Hopefully there will be some information there that is useful to you.

- I can live with the dim display.
- I can also live with the sh*tty fan or snap a noctua into it.

I got an MSO5074 a couple weeks ago (haven't hacked it yet); the display doesn't seem dim to  me and the fan is barely noticeable (it is silent compared to the noise the fan on my cheap "Dr. Meter" power supply makes).  I don't know if Rigol addressed those issues or if I'm just not sensitive to them.

[Fungus]

- I can live with the dim display.
- I can also live with the sh*tty fan or snap a noctua into it.

I got an MSO5074 a couple weeks ago (haven't hacked it yet); the display doesn't seem dim to  me and the fan is barely noticeable (it is silent compared to the noise the fan on my cheap "Dr. Meter" power supply makes).  I don't know if Rigol addressed those issues or if I'm just not sensitive to them.

- Maybe I can even live with the subpar front end and the noise (just maybe).

And they've added a hires mode that will reduce noise to within spitting distance of a Siglent in a pinch thanks to the beast's massive sample rate.

(but not on all channels simultaneously)

[balnazzar]

I don't know a damn thing about Bode plots, but there is a youtube with someone generating a Bode plot on an MSO5000 and showing some Bode plot results for various opamps.  The "results" part of the video just shows the final graphs - the time spent plotting the graphs isn't in the video.

I got an MSO5074 a couple weeks ago (haven't hacked it yet); the display doesn't seem dim to  me and the fan is barely noticeable (it is silent compared to the noise the fan on my cheap "Dr. Meter" power supply makes).  I don't know if Rigol addressed those issues or if I'm just not sensitive to them.

Thanks for reporting about the display and the noise.

As for the Bodes, I'd like to see the 5K's Bode plots compared to a scope (or analyzer) that's known for producing high quality Bode plots. Seeing it standalone is a bit pointless without nothing to compare with.
But thanks for the video, it's interesting by its own.

[balnazzar]

You should also be aware SDS2kX Plus has an inbuilt 50 MHz AWG and therefore already has a stimulus source for Bode plot use whereas with X-E models a stimulus source for Bode plot use is an additional expenditure.

Is it inbuilt? I thought one had to buy the little black boxy thing in order to enable the WG...

[balnazzar]

No. But depending on your location, a GW Instek GDS1054B could be a good alternative to buy a decent 4 channel oscilloscope (options can be enabled for free using a key generator available on this forum). For example: https://eleshop.eu/gw-instek-gds-1054b.html

Interesting. Mh. How does it compare to the Siglent? Snappier UI?

The screen looks smaller than Siglent's, but it's still 7". Probably it's the scope body that's larger.. I'm seeing that people on this forum adapted a 8" screen, but it's far from being straightforward.

Tell me, is that Eleshop a reliable vendor? Thanks!

[balnazzar]

Things such as frequency range, noise floor and dynamic range are pretty obvious, and many measuring instruments these days have some excellent features. If you are studying just analog type circuits, amplifiers, filters, servo systems etc... that is all pretty straightforward.

These days switching power supplies are a significant area of interest, and Bode plots are just about a must have, if you wish to maintain your sanity.
Switching supplies are are very Bode plotter unfriendly by being significant producers of wideband noise by the power components.

Trying to resolve a sine wave of a couple of millivolts submerged in hundreds of millivolts of spikes and ripple is something very simple equipment is just not capable of doing.  Its all very well the software being able to plot a nice smooth gain curve over 100db dynamic range, but unless millivolt or microvolt level signals can be resolved beneath huge levels of noise, the pretty plot on the screen is just not going to happen.

That's the point. I'll be studying the frequency response of amplifiers, filters, servo systems, etc, for a time. The next step forward would be power supplies. I'd like to have an instrument that scales up well, or at least acceptably..

If that's not possible with my budget, ok, but at least it has to be really good with the basic analog stuff.

[balnazzar]

No. But depending on your location, a GW Instek GDS1054B could be a good alternative to buy a decent 4 channel oscilloscope (options can be enabled for free using a key generator available on this forum). For example: https://eleshop.eu/gw-instek-gds-1054b.html

Interesting. Mh. How does it compare to the Siglent? Snappier UI?

The screen looks smaller than Siglent's, but it's still 7". Probably it's the scope body that's larger.. I'm seeing that people on this forum adapted a 8" screen, but it's far from being straightforward.

Tell me, is that Eleshop a reliable vendor? Thanks!

Addendum: How is the software?

[nctnico]

No. But depending on your location, a GW Instek GDS1054B could be a good alternative to buy a decent 4 channel oscilloscope (options can be enabled for free using a key generator available on this forum). For example: https://eleshop.eu/gw-instek-gds-1054b.html

Interesting. Mh. How does it compare to the Siglent? Snappier UI?

The screen looks smaller than Siglent's, but it's still 7". Probably it's the scope body that's larger.. I'm seeing that people on this forum adapted a 8" screen, but it's far from being straightforward.

Tell me, is that Eleshop a reliable vendor? Thanks!

IMHO Eleshop is a reliable vendor. I have bought some test equipment from them (and returned one as well because it didn't meet my expectations). The firmware for the GDS1054B is mature. If you do run into a problem, the service department from GW Instek is responsive and they will fix bugs (if you happen to find one). Personally I find GW Instek's UI easier to use compared to Keysight. The key difference is that GW Instek has a horizontal and vertical row of buttons which makes navigating through the menus much easier. The seperate 'select' button prevents you from turning the rotary encoder while pressing it and selecting a different menu item than the one you wanted to select (which typically happens to me when the rotary encoder and select button are integrated in one).

[mawyatt]

Having considerable 1st hand experience with the Bode function in the Siglent 2000X+

When did the 2000X series come into it? That's way over budget.

Maybe you should read the entire post and include what this was responding too!!

Here's the prior comment by nctnico:

"Have you considered getting a specific device for doing bode plots? What kind of frequency range are you after? Any amplitude & dynamic range requirements? The analog discovery is mentioned often as a tool for doing bode plots. From a comparison between various oscilloscopes made by one of the forum members, it seems Siglent's bode plot is rather slow so may not be ideal for doing a lot of bode plots in a short time."

So nctnico brought Siglent into the discussion, and we responded to such.

Regarding relevance, think 2N3055 covered that pretty well!!

Best,

[2N3055]

No. But depending on your location, a GW Instek GDS1054B could be a good alternative to buy a decent 4 channel oscilloscope (options can be enabled for free using a key generator available on this forum). For example: https://eleshop.eu/gw-instek-gds-1054b.html

Interesting. Mh. How does it compare to the Siglent? Snappier UI?

The screen looks smaller than Siglent's, but it's still 7". Probably it's the scope body that's larger.. I'm seeing that people on this forum adapted a 8" screen, but it's far from being straightforward.

Tell me, is that Eleshop a reliable vendor? Thanks!

IMHO Eleshop is a reliable vendor. I have bought some test equipment from them (and returned one as well because it didn't meet my expectations). The firmware for the GDS1054B is mature. If you do run into a problem, the service department from GW Instek is responsive and they will fix bugs (if you happen to find one). Personally I find GW Instek's UI easier to use compared to Keysight. The key difference is that GW Instek has a horizontal and vertical row of buttons which makes navigating through the menus much easier. The seperate 'select' button prevents you from turning the rotary encoder while pressing it and selecting a different menu item than the one you wanted to select (which typically happens to me when the rotary encoder and select button are integrated in one).

Little GW Instek 1000 has bode plotting?

[mawyatt]

Regarding the Bode plotting capability within various DSOs.

Here's one that honestly we did not think possible, or ever attempted. This is the injection locking of an oscillator which requires the Bode function to correctly surmise the correct response in the presence of the oscillator signal, which is close to the measurement frequency!! We've added a snip from Razvi which is referenced in the thread, and note the Bode response curves from the measurements!!

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/injection-locked-peltz-oscillator-with-bode-analysis/msg4424434/#msg4424434

If you are in to non-linear dynamics, the injection locking phenomenon is fascinating, and having an instrument capable of displaying such is something we did not expect and required no post processing, this is right from the DSO:-+

Best

[2N3055]

And they've added a hires mode that will reduce noise to within spitting distance of a Siglent in a pinch thanks to the beast's massive sample rate.

(but not on all channels simultaneously)

Stop repeating things that are not true. It doesn't work like that. And even more difference in Bode plot calculations, because of, physics..
It is not Siglent marketing but true. Fun fact is that even Rigol is not even pretending that what are you saying is true.. This is your own misunderstanding.....

What you require, really depends on the application and test envioronment.
What are you planning to Bode plot ?

Things such as frequency range, noise floor and dynamic range are pretty obvious, and many measuring instruments these days have some excellent features. If you are studying just analog type circuits, amplifiers, filters, servo systems etc... that is all pretty straightforward.

These days switching power supplies are a significant area of interest, and Bode plots are just about a must have, if you wish to maintain your sanity.
Switching supplies are are very Bode plotter unfriendly by being significant producers of wideband noise by the power components.

Trying to resolve a sine wave of a couple of millivolts submerged in hundreds of millivolts of spikes and ripple is something very simple equipment is just not capable of doing.  Its all very well the software being able to plot a nice smooth gain curve over 100db dynamic range, but unless millivolt or microvolt level signals can be resolved beneath huge levels of noise, the pretty plot on the screen is just not going to happen.

Many if not all low end Bode plot systems just use direct analog to digital conversion and some clever number crunching. That works fine for demo purposes by the plotter salesman, but not when trying to make real world measurements on switching power supplies or in really noisy applications.

The only way to do it is with a couple of very narrow band swept filters, similar in concept to a spectrum analyser.  That can be done either with hardware or very sophisticated software to reject everything but the exact test frequency being run through the equipment under test.
All very clever, but it does not come cheap unfortunately.

So a simple low end Bode plotter may be all you need, or it may not work for you at all, depending on the test environment.

While in general what you say is true, you seem to not know how it is implemented..
Very narrow band swept filters with sophisticated software and processing synchronized with generator and vari-level sampling and vary-level stimulus is exactly how it IS implemented in Siglent.
And it works very well..

[nctnico]

No. But depending on your location, a GW Instek GDS1054B could be a good alternative to buy a decent 4 channel oscilloscope (options can be enabled for free using a key generator available on this forum). For example: https://eleshop.eu/gw-instek-gds-1054b.html

Interesting. Mh. How does it compare to the Siglent? Snappier UI?

The screen looks smaller than Siglent's, but it's still 7". Probably it's the scope body that's larger.. I'm seeing that people on this forum adapted a 8" screen, but it's far from being straightforward.

Tell me, is that Eleshop a reliable vendor? Thanks!

IMHO Eleshop is a reliable vendor. I have bought some test equipment from them (and returned one as well because it didn't meet my expectations). The firmware for the GDS1054B is mature. If you do run into a problem, the service department from GW Instek is responsive and they will fix bugs (if you happen to find one). Personally I find GW Instek's UI easier to use compared to Keysight. The key difference is that GW Instek has a horizontal and vertical row of buttons which makes navigating through the menus much easier. The seperate 'select' button prevents you from turning the rotary encoder while pressing it and selecting a different menu item than the one you wanted to select (which typically happens to me when the rotary encoder and select button are integrated in one).

Little GW Instek 1000 has bode plotting?

No, but it leaves enough room in the budget to buy an analog discovery to do bode plotting with. It could be a more powerfull combo compared to buying a single, more expensive unit.

[mawyatt]

The only way to do it is with a couple of very narrow band swept filters, similar in concept to a spectrum analyser.  That can be done either with hardware or very sophisticated software to reject everything but the exact test frequency being run through the equipment under test.
All very clever, but it does not come cheap unfortunately.

Don't think a traditional SA actually "Sweeps" the analog filter, but "Sweeps" the LO of a Mixer to produce a result that fits within a fixed frequency high quality analog filter. Swept analog filters are very difficult to implement, and high quality swept filters like YIG types are large and expensive.

So don't think Siglent is doing this but implementing an effective swept filter by means of a digital implementation of something similar to the Synchronous Sampling Technique. For this to work well the DR of the overall ADC conversion needs to be very good as well as the noise floor. With the dynamic scaling of the Ch1 and Ch2 input amplifiers and their low inherent noise this allows Siglent to do a very respectable implementation of the Bode Function, which our own experience confirms!!

Best,

[2N3055]

No. But depending on your location, a GW Instek GDS1054B could be a good alternative to buy a decent 4 channel oscilloscope (options can be enabled for free using a key generator available on this forum). For example: https://eleshop.eu/gw-instek-gds-1054b.html

Interesting. Mh. How does it compare to the Siglent? Snappier UI?

The screen looks smaller than Siglent's, but it's still 7". Probably it's the scope body that's larger.. I'm seeing that people on this forum adapted a 8" screen, but it's far from being straightforward.

Tell me, is that Eleshop a reliable vendor? Thanks!

IMHO Eleshop is a reliable vendor. I have bought some test equipment from them (and returned one as well because it didn't meet my expectations). The firmware for the GDS1054B is mature. If you do run into a problem, the service department from GW Instek is responsive and they will fix bugs (if you happen to find one). Personally I find GW Instek's UI easier to use compared to Keysight. The key difference is that GW Instek has a horizontal and vertical row of buttons which makes navigating through the menus much easier. The seperate 'select' button prevents you from turning the rotary encoder while pressing it and selecting a different menu item than the one you wanted to select (which typically happens to me when the rotary encoder and select button are integrated in one).

Little GW Instek 1000 has bode plotting?

No, but it leaves enough room in the budget to buy an analog discovery to do bode plotting with. It could be a more powerfull combo compared to buying a single, more expensive unit.

Analog Discovery II is 400€....

[balnazzar]

No. But depending on your location, a GW Instek GDS1054B could be a good alternative to buy a decent 4 channel oscilloscope (options can be enabled for free using a key generator available on this forum). For example: https://eleshop.eu/gw-instek-gds-1054b.html

Interesting. Mh. How does it compare to the Siglent? Snappier UI?

The screen looks smaller than Siglent's, but it's still 7". Probably it's the scope body that's larger.. I'm seeing that people on this forum adapted a 8" screen, but it's far from being straightforward.

Tell me, is that Eleshop a reliable vendor? Thanks!

IMHO Eleshop is a reliable vendor. I have bought some test equipment from them (and returned one as well because it didn't meet my expectations). The firmware for the GDS1054B is mature. If you do run into a problem, the service department from GW Instek is responsive and they will fix bugs (if you happen to find one). Personally I find GW Instek's UI easier to use compared to Keysight. The key difference is that GW Instek has a horizontal and vertical row of buttons which makes navigating through the menus much easier. The seperate 'select' button prevents you from turning the rotary encoder while pressing it and selecting a different menu item than the one you wanted to select (which typically happens to me when the rotary encoder and select button are integrated in one).

Thanks, that was very useful.
I'm buying that GW-Instek from Eleshop within the next 24 hours, and the AD2 from Amazon (AFAIU the gds1054B doesn't do Bodes..). If I keep lingering I'll never buy anything...

[balnazzar]

No. But depending on your location, a GW Instek GDS1054B could be a good alternative to buy a decent 4 channel oscilloscope (options can be enabled for free using a key generator available on this forum). For example: https://eleshop.eu/gw-instek-gds-1054b.html

Interesting. Mh. How does it compare to the Siglent? Snappier UI?

The screen looks smaller than Siglent's, but it's still 7". Probably it's the scope body that's larger.. I'm seeing that people on this forum adapted a 8" screen, but it's far from being straightforward.

Tell me, is that Eleshop a reliable vendor? Thanks!

IMHO Eleshop is a reliable vendor. I have bought some test equipment from them (and returned one as well because it didn't meet my expectations). The firmware for the GDS1054B is mature. If you do run into a problem, the service department from GW Instek is responsive and they will fix bugs (if you happen to find one). Personally I find GW Instek's UI easier to use compared to Keysight. The key difference is that GW Instek has a horizontal and vertical row of buttons which makes navigating through the menus much easier. The seperate 'select' button prevents you from turning the rotary encoder while pressing it and selecting a different menu item than the one you wanted to select (which typically happens to me when the rotary encoder and select button are integrated in one).

Little GW Instek 1000 has bode plotting?

No, but it leaves enough room in the budget to buy an analog discovery to do bode plotting with. It could be a more powerfull combo compared to buying a single, more expensive unit.

Analog Discovery II is 400€....

Indeed. Considering that the Instek is ~500 eur, and that AD2 is ~400, I should be within my budget. The alternative would be the MSO5074.
But, as far as I understood:

- The MSO5K is noisier than Instek, and has a worse front end.
- It has a buggy firmware, while Instek's is mature enough
- Two instruments are better than one, in case the first goes kablooey, you have the second.
- Differential probing is possible with the AD2 (although up to 9 MHz).
- You can work on digital stuff with the AD2 (while the logic probe for the MSO5K costs a fortune, relatively speaking).

On the cons side:

- 7" inches screen VS. 9" is a big minus
- The fan grid on the Instek appears to be tiny. Tiny fan = more noise. Probably more than the MSO5K.

All in all, I think I'll be better served with the AD2 + Instek, for the same price.

[balnazzar]

Mh, one thing I didn't notice is that the Instek has no external trigger input. That's not a good thing.

[nctnico]

Mh, one thing I didn't notice is that the Instek has no external trigger input. That's not a good thing.

That is lacking on many lower end 4 channel oscilloscopes.

[tautech]

You should also be aware SDS2kX Plus has an inbuilt 50 MHz AWG and therefore already has a stimulus source for Bode plot use whereas with X-E models a stimulus source for Bode plot use is an additional expenditure.

Is it inbuilt? I thought one had to buy the little black boxy thing in order to enable the WG...

Yes and class leading at 50 MHz.

All Siglent DSO's capable of Bode plot can drive the USB powered SAG1021I that is now an isolated channel version however like any internal or USB powered AWG, stimulus levels are very limited, regardless of the brand.

If you need a wide dynamic range and and good stimulus levels from an AWG, a standalone 2ch unit and Bode plot capable DSO is the only way to go and offer far more options as skill and needs develop.

Think of this as upselling if you like but why at this level of investment do you need to your limit capabilities in your future as one day you might think doing this is very valuable:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fooln-around-with-dso-awg/

[balnazzar]

That is lacking on many lower end 4 channel oscilloscopes.

Very bad. I initially thought that one of the two BNCs on the back was for external trig, but it's not so..
The Siglent also lacks it..
I can think of N situations where it would come handy.
What is the cheapest 4chs with external triggering? I'm afraid it's precisely the MSO5000...

[balnazzar]

Yes and class leading at 50 MHz.

All Siglent DSO's capable of Bode plot can drive the USB powered SAG1021I that is now an insulated channel version however like any internal or USB powered AWG, stimulus levels are very limited, regardless of the brand.

If you need a wide dynamic range and and good stimulus levels from an AWG, a standalone 2ch unit and Bode plot capable DSO is the only way to go and offer far more options as skill and needs develop.

Think of this as upselling if you like but why at this level of investment do you need to your limit capabilities in your future as one day you might think doing this is very valuable:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fooln-around-with-dso-awg/

Ok, correct me if I'm making mistakes.

The SDS2000 Plus has an inbuilt WG (how many volts?), it's available with no license (or hackable) and it can be used for bode plotting. OR, the inbuilt WG cannot be used for bode plotting and one needs to purchase the SAG external generator?

[balnazzar]

All Siglent DSO's capable of Bode plot

Apart from the bode plots, if you had to make a case for the Siglent scope vs. the Instek, what would you say to a prospective customer?
What does your scope have that the Instek lacks?

[tautech]

Yes and class leading at 50 MHz.

All Siglent DSO's capable of Bode plot can drive the USB powered SAG1021I that is now an insulated channel version however like any internal or USB powered AWG, stimulus levels are very limited, regardless of the brand.

If you need a wide dynamic range and and good stimulus levels from an AWG, a standalone 2ch unit and Bode plot capable DSO is the only way to go and offer far more options as skill and needs develop.

Think of this as upselling if you like but why at this level of investment do you need to your limit capabilities in your future as one day you might think doing this is very valuable:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fooln-around-with-dso-awg/

Ok, correct me if I'm making mistakes.

The SDS2000 Plus has an inbuilt WG (how many volts?), it's available with no license (or hackable) and it can be used for bode plotting. OR, the inbuilt WG cannot be used for bode plotting and one needs to purchase the SAG external generator?

All Siglent DSO's can use any of their AWG stimulus sources for Bode plots without any licensing restrictions.

However for general FG/AWG use licensing need be purchased for inbuilt or SAG1021I usage whereas for standalone with their much higher stimulus/amplitude levels no licensing is needed although they cannot be controlled from within the DSO's UI like the inbuilt and USB units can.

OTOH for Bode plot usage the DSO takes charge of external AWG stimulus while the Bode plot feature is running via the USB control connection or with the standalone units you can also have the scope control the AWG over LAN.

For Siglent scopes all optional functionality has 30 free trial uses before without licensing these options cease to work. The spectrum analyzer ranges are different and they offer free use of all options until 120hrs of runtime is reached.

[tautech]

All Siglent DSO's capable of Bode plot

Apart from the bode plots, if you had to make a case for the Siglent scope vs. the Instek, what would you say to a prospective customer?
What does your scope have that the Instek lacks?

We sure can compare models with just manuals and datasheets but we need know the model class first.
We inform to help with the best decision for current needs and future use but in the end it is not our money to spend.

[balnazzar]

We sure can compare models with just manuals and datasheets but we need know the model class first.
We inform to help with the best decision for current needs and future use but in the end it is not our money to spend.

I was making reference to the sds1104x-e, which has almost exactly the same price of the Instek 1054B.

I understand that the 2000+ is a much better machine, but it costs a fortune (relatively to typical hobbist/student wallets). Lowering the prince to 1 grand, even without the free perks & options of the MSO5000, would make you sell a lot more of them...

[tautech]

We sure can compare models with just manuals and datasheets but we need know the model class first.
We inform to help with the best decision for current needs and future use but in the end it is not our money to spend.

I was making reference to the sds1104x-e, which has almost exactly the same price of the Instek 1054B.

One could argue the Instek is overpriced being only 50 MHz rated.

Best you spend a good deal more time studying datasheets and manuals to discover the real capabilities and feature set of each model.
Do I need link you the datasheets or can you find them ?

[balnazzar]

One could argue the Instek is overpriced being only 50 MHz rated.

Best you spend a good deal more time studying datasheets and manuals to discover the real capabilities and feature set of each model.
Do I need link you the datasheets or can you find them ?

Come on, it's made to be hacked.

No, I don't need the datasheets. A few things that one doesn't find on the datasheets, if you had occasion to test the Instek: sluggishness of the OS (or lack thereof) and quality of the UI.

[tautech]

One could argue the Instek is overpriced being only 50 MHz rated.

Best you spend a good deal more time studying datasheets and manuals to discover the real capabilities and feature set of each model.
Do I need link you the datasheets or can you find them ?

Come on, it's made to be hacked.

No, I don't need the datasheets.

Seems you can't read datasheets then, maybe it's time to learn.
1 GSa/s times 1 or 2 for the 4ch Instek ? Answer is 1 as they don't make a 4ch 200 MHz 1000 series whereas the SDS1104X-E is a 200 MHz design using two 1 GSa/a ADC's so to maintain sufficient sampling rate with all channels active at max frequency to ensure it meets Nyquist.

Do we need investigate feature sets next or can I leave that with you ?

[Fungus]

A few things that one doesn't find on the datasheets, if you had occasion to test the Instek: sluggishness of the OS (or lack thereof) and quality of the UI.

The Instek has one of the most responsive UIs of any 'scope. It also has separate channel controls and a proper button for menu selections, no error-prone pushing of a twisty knob.

It's a very nice little 'scope, I don't believe the bandwidth can be hacked very high though.

[Martin72]

Lowering the prince to 1 grand, even without the free perks & options of the MSO5000, would make you sell a lot more of them...

Or lowering to 800, much more would buy it.
Life could be so easy. 

[balnazzar]

Seems you can't read datasheets then, maybe it's time to learn.
1 GSa/s times 1 or 2 for the 4ch Instek ? Answer is 1 as they don't make a 4ch 200 MHz 1000 series whereas the SDS1104X-E is a 200 MHz design using two 1 GSa/a ADC's so to maintain sufficient sampling rate with all channels active at max frequency to ensure it meets Nyquist.

Do we need investigate feature sets next or can I leave that with you ?

It's always time to learn, of course, but I didn't manage to be understood in this specific context. Here is what I meant, articulated a bit better:

I can read the specs, but I won't find some things in the specs (or in the manuals). For example:

1. If the OS is fast and responsive, compared to Instek's.
2. If the user interface is intuitive to use (again, compared to the Instek's).

Another interesting thing to know is if the Instek can 'zoom out' (AFAIK, Siglent and Rigol can't).

[balnazzar]

The Instek has one of the most responsive UIs of any 'scope. It also has separate channel controls and a proper button for menu selections, no error-prone pushing of a twisty knob.

It's a very nice little 'scope, I don't believe the bandwidth can be hacked very high though.

Mh, good to know. I mean, both aspects.
I dunno. I was leaning toward the Instek due to responsiveness (there are threads in which owners report that also). Using a sluggish scope is an experience I already made, and it's incredibly frustrating.
But the Siglent seems to be a better machine, at least on paper. And owners seems to be generally happy.
I have to say, however, that the SDS5000s  I used at the university are not sluggish, but they are not astonishingly fast either (considering the price). I briefly used the Keysight dsox1204 for ten minutes at a fair, and it seemed snappier.

Choosing a scope is proving to be a difficult thing.

[Martin72]

Hi,

1. If the OS is fast and responsive, compared to Instek's.
2. If the user interface is intuitive to use (again, compared to the Instek's).

Both can be answered by someone who works with all of the mentioned scopes - And then it´s his own impression.
In my case, I got following "scope owning history":

- Rigol DS1000Z
- Rigol DS2000
- Siglent SDS1104X-E
- Rigol MSO5000
- Siglent SDS2000Xplus
- Siglent SDS2000X HD (actual scope)

GW Instek never came into my mind, maybe they making good scopes and nearly nobody knows about, or they knowing about it and this may explain their place by the hobbyists. 

[tautech]

The Instek has one of the most responsive UIs of any 'scope. It also has separate channel controls and a proper button for menu selections, no error-prone pushing of a twisty knob.

It's a very nice little 'scope, I don't believe the bandwidth can be hacked very high though.

Mh, good to know. I mean, both aspects.
I dunno. I was leaning toward the Instek due to responsiveness (there are threads in which owners report that also). Using a sluggish scope is an experience I already made, and it's incredibly frustrating.
But the Siglent seems to be a better machine, at least on paper. And owners seems to be generally happy.
I have to say, however, that the SDS5000s  I used at the university are not sluggish, but they are not astonishingly fast either (considering the price). I briefly used the Keysight dsox1204 for ten minutes at a fair, and it seemed snappier.

Choosing a scope is proving to be a difficult thing.

It can be unless you take a step back to consider all guidance/advice as to its relevance and importance.

Considered thoughtful and deliberate use sees no need for blindingly fast responsiveness except to satisfy some misguided belief that faster must be better. 

Feature set and specs determine what one can do with any instrument not how fast it can do it.

[balnazzar]

Hi,

1. If the OS is fast and responsive, compared to Instek's.
2. If the user interface is intuitive to use (again, compared to the Instek's).

Both can be answered by someone who works with all of the mentioned scopes - And then it´s his own impression.
In my case, I got following "scope owning history":

- Rigol DS1000Z
- Rigol DS2000
- Siglent SDS1104X-E
- Rigol MSO5000
- Siglent SDS2000Xplus
- Siglent SDS2000X HD (actual scope)

GW Instek never came into my mind, maybe they making good scopes and nearly nobody knows about, or they knowing about it and this may explain their place by the hobbyists. 

Interesting. Two questions:

1. Why did you switch from the 2K plus to the 2K HD?
2. How did the MSO5K compare with the SDS1104X-E *purely in terms of noise and OS/UI quickness*?

Thanks.

[balnazzar]

Feature set and specs determine what one can do with any instrument not how fast it can do it.

True, but it's not exactly about analyzing a circuit in five minutes vs. (say) seven.
It's about how much responsive the instrument is. If you read the threads here and there, users with slow scopes are pretty pissed off, and, by my limited experience, with good reason.

I bought that crappy Hantek a while ago. Slow and laggy as hell. Returned.
Bought as a temporary solution an Owon HDS242s handheld (it costs just 167 eur and I needed a scope). It's like 10X more responsive. I mean, it's a very limited machine, but you can work with it, whereas you couldn't with the Hantek (*).

That's what I meant by 'fast'.

(*) I joined the exclusive NAH! club (Never Again Hantek!).

[nctnico]

Hi,

1. If the OS is fast and responsive, compared to Instek's.
2. If the user interface is intuitive to use (again, compared to the Instek's).

Both can be answered by someone who works with all of the mentioned scopes - And then it´s his own impression.
In my case, I got following "scope owning history":

- Rigol DS1000Z
- Rigol DS2000
- Siglent SDS1104X-E
- Rigol MSO5000
- Siglent SDS2000Xplus
- Siglent SDS2000X HD (actual scope)

GW Instek never came into my mind, maybe they making good scopes and nearly nobody knows about, or they knowing about it and this may explain their place by the hobbyists. 

GW Instek never came into my mind... same here but due to lack of other interesting models I tried a GDS-2204E nevertheless (with very explicitely requiring to be able to return the oscilloscope) and got a very pleasant surprise. I use the GW Instek regulary besides the higher end R&S oscilloscope that is also on my desk.

[nctnico]

Feature set and specs determine what one can do with any instrument not how fast it can do it.

Faster means an instrument is more efficient and more enjoyable to use. So yes, being able to make measurements fast is a good feature. But it is missing from datasheets and specs. Reading specs is like judging a book by the cover. You still don't know whether you'll enjoy the book. You either have to read the book or go by the reviews (which might be skewed).

I used to own an Agilent MSO7104A (4 channel 1GHz + 16 channel MSO) which IIRC costed like $20k when new. It required endless dicking around with knobs and going through deep menus in order to configure things like decoding or math. The GW Instek GDS-2204E I bought later on was such a relief compared to the MSO7104A. The MSO7104A is long gone but I still have the GDS-2204E because it is such a pleasant oscilloscope to use.

[2N3055]

All Siglent DSO's capable of Bode plot

Apart from the bode plots, if you had to make a case for the Siglent scope vs. the Instek, what would you say to a prospective customer?
What does your scope have that the Instek lacks?

Many things. 
It has 2 1GS/S ADC instead of one. It has more display modes. It has better vertical sensitivity.  Web control.

Nico owns GW Instek scope, but a 2000E series that is nice little scope but much more expensive.
GDS1054 has some thing going for it and it is better than, say, Rigol DS1054, but not SDS1104X-E.

Truth to be told, I have been following discussion here and I think you might be expecting too much from a price range you are prepared to pay for.  I don't think GDS1054 will carry you for years. Neither the AD2 is what you might expect it to be.. 

Excuse me for being blunt, but you seem to be asking unusual questions and seem to more be arguing and inciting adversarial discussion than really trying to get good information which will help you decide what equipment would be good for your use case..
And for some time now discussion has been going in circles...
You don't want to read datasheets but UI responsiveness is important. An intuitiveness, whatever that means..
You have no set application target.
You are a beginner and this is your first scope.
And then you want sophisticated scope although there will be years before you need anything more sophisticated than either GDS1054, Rigol DS1054,  SDS1104X-E.
AD2 is not really "good" for digital except very slow stuf.
You cannot combine AD2 and any other scope with a software. It doesn't work that way..

Again, sorry for being direct. But my opinion that for a beginner you should start with any of the mentioned scopes. If this is a hobby maybe you will lose interest. If you are doing this long term and or pro you will need many thousands € for equipment in coming years..
If I were in your place I would either buy SDS1104X-E and SDG1000X AWG for more analog minded application or a MSO5000 if you are going to predominantly do microcontrollers robotics, motor control and such.
First option gives you great little scope and a 2ch real AWG and Bode plot that works really well. MSO5000 is not really good for hardcore analog stuff but has proper MSO integration and it also has 2CH AWG although very limited in amplitude and features.
If you overgrow any of mentioned equipment you will easily sell it and move on to better stuff.. Or keep it for reserve or whatever..

[nctnico]

All Siglent DSO's capable of Bode plot

Apart from the bode plots, if you had to make a case for the Siglent scope vs. the Instek, what would you say to a prospective customer?
What does your scope have that the Instek lacks?

Many things. 
It has 2 1GS/S ADC instead of one. It has more display modes. It has better vertical sensitivity.  Web control.

Nico owns GW Instek scope, but a 2000E series that is nice little scope but much more expensive.

Still it runs the same firmware as the GDS-1054B. In comparison to the model I have, the GDS-1054 has half the samplerate and you can't enable the spectrum analysis option on it.

GDS1054 has some thing going for it and it is better than, say, Rigol DS1054, but not SDS1104X-E.

You forget that the SDS1104X-E has some useability issues like decoding only what is on screen and suboptimal memory management (recording only enough data to fill the screen). Based on that alone, it is not an optimal choice for doing digital / firmware development. In this price range you'll always need to compromise somehow.

[tautech]

.............
If I were in your place I would either buy SDS1104X-E and SDG1000X AWG for more analog minded application or a MSO5000 if you are going to predominantly do microcontrollers robotics, motor control and such.
First option gives you great little scope and a 2ch real AWG and Bode plot that works really well.

Yep, our most popular budget conscious pairing, SDS1104X-E and SDG1032X and those with a little more go for SDG2042X that if both are 'improved' pushes out to the 120 MHz max of Siglent Bode plot capability.

[2N3055]

Feature set and specs determine what one can do with any instrument not how fast it can do it.

Faster means an instrument is more efficient and more enjoyable to use. So yes, being able to make measurements fast is a good feature. But it is missing from datasheets and specs. Reading specs is like judging a book by the cover. You still don't know whether you'll enjoy the book. You either have to read the book or go by the reviews (which might be skewed).

I used to own an Agilent MSO7104A (4 channel 1GHz + 16 channel MSO) which IIRC costed like $20k when new. It required endless dicking around with knobs and going through deep menus in order to configure things like decoding or math. The GW Instek GDS-2204E I bought later on was such a relief compared to the MSO7104A. The MSO7104A is long gone but I still have the GDS-2204E because it is such a pleasant oscilloscope to use.

I don't disagree that instrument that is more "enjoyable to use" will be "more enjoyable to use".. That is pretty much a truism, but is pretty undefined what it really means. Specifically there are thousands of people that "revere" Keysight scope (including one you didn't like) as best ones to use.... So that is by definition individual and very vague.

And your comparison with the book is not very good one, sorry.  Datasheet is detailed explanation of what the book is all about. It is necessary to pick a book from right genre etc..

Instrument can be very enjoyable to use (to me for instance) but if datasheet shows it has no measurement functions I need it is a moot point. People say Apple phones are joy to use but if they cannot run application my company standardizes on, then it is useless to me, enjoyable or not. 

Datasheet is absolute necessary first data point. How many channels?  Trigger input ?  And many other functions.
Only when you have several devices that all can fulfill your function then you start comparing how well they work.

Once you make a list of devices that do stuff you need and do it well, then absolutely, pick one with bigger, better screen, nicer colour, and whatever subjective, cosmetic or whatever differences there are.
But it has to be able to do the work for you first..

[balnazzar]

Feature set and specs determine what one can do with any instrument not how fast it can do it.

Faster means an instrument is more efficient and more enjoyable to use. So yes, being able to make measurements fast is a good feature. But it is missing from datasheets and specs. Reading specs is like judging a book by the cover. You still don't know whether you'll enjoy the book. You either have to read the book or go by the reviews (which might be skewed).

I used to own an Agilent MSO7104A (4 channel 1GHz + 16 channel MSO) which IIRC costed like $20k when new. It required endless dicking around with knobs and going through deep menus in order to configure things like decoding or math. The GW Instek GDS-2204E I bought later on was such a relief compared to the MSO7104A. The MSO7104A is long gone but I still have the GDS-2204E because it is such a pleasant oscilloscope to use.

I meant exactly that. It has to let you use it 'easily', so that you can focus upon your work.

Anyway, interesting and useful opinion, although the GDS-2204E is not exactly a low end instrument (~2000 eur).
Did you ever own or use comparable Siglent scopes?

[nctnico]

Feature set and specs determine what one can do with any instrument not how fast it can do it.

Faster means an instrument is more efficient and more enjoyable to use. So yes, being able to make measurements fast is a good feature. But it is missing from datasheets and specs. Reading specs is like judging a book by the cover. You still don't know whether you'll enjoy the book. You either have to read the book or go by the reviews (which might be skewed).

I used to own an Agilent MSO7104A (4 channel 1GHz + 16 channel MSO) which IIRC costed like $20k when new. It required endless dicking around with knobs and going through deep menus in order to configure things like decoding or math. The GW Instek GDS-2204E I bought later on was such a relief compared to the MSO7104A. The MSO7104A is long gone but I still have the GDS-2204E because it is such a pleasant oscilloscope to use.

I meant exactly that. It has to let you use it 'easily', so that you can focus upon your work.

Anyway, interesting and useful opinion, although the GDS-2204E is not exactly a low end instrument (~2000 eur).
Did you ever own or use comparable Siglent scopes?

That is a bit of a long story. I bought a Siglent SDS2000 (2.5k euro) when it was released. It was so horrible with no outlook on Siglent getting it fixed to an acceptable level that I more or less threw it in the bin (Siglent didn't want to take it back) and I ended up spending more money on a used A-brand scope. Nowadays Siglent scopes are better and people seem to be happy with them. OTOH, I buy test equipment to make money and I need equipment to work as expected instead of throwing me a curve ball at the worst possible moment. Based on the good experiences on this forum I recommended one of my customers to buy some Siglent gear but that turned out to be a horrible mistake. Basically they wasted their money and spend a bunch of hours on an issue that was a fault in the Siglent equipment. In the end buying A-brand equipment was cheaper. Personally I stay clear from Siglent equipment for any serious work (same for Rigol BTW) since then. Their firmware quality control just isn't good enough for me to work with.

[balnazzar]

@2N3055 [I'll avoid quoting multiple chunks]

No need to be sorry for being direct/blunt as long as one elaborates, and you did. Only allow me to say I don't know if I want to promote 'adversarial discussions'. If that means I'd like people reporting something along "I owned these scopes and I found that that one was better at such and such tasks, while the other..", then that's exactly what I wanted: usage experience.

The discussion doesn't seem to go in circles. Only recently the Instek popped up, and it's an alternative I didn't knew about. I'm trying to gather information about it. Preferably, comparative information (see below), and subjective impressions indeed.

UI responsiveness is important for me, since I had a bad experience with a scope that looked OK (for the price) on the datasheet, but had so a sluggish UI that it was basically not usable. Along the same line, the MSO5000 looked like a no-brainer for the price on the datasheet (8 MSa/s, 2 Ch awg, external trigger, 9" touch, independent channel control, and whatnot), but the same datasheet doesn't specify that it is so noisy.
 
What do 'intuitiveness' mean: that for doing a certain operation or access a certain function, you don't have to fiddle across multiple menus for two minutes.

More detail about my usage scenario: I just took a course in general electromagnetism at the university. We studie basic circuits with linear components. Now I have to take a 1-semester course in Electronics, and I'd like not to be dependent upon the laboratory at the university. Plus, I'm starting to enjoy the matter, and will likely keep studying it independently.

Now I understand that from the standpoint of a person having years upon years of experience, a beginner bothering people for a 500$-class scope may sound silly, and that any scope would be ok(-ish?) for learning, but I'm just trying to spend my (hardly earned) money the best way I can, and avoid spending more within just a few weeks or months. If I had no return options, I would have had to fling that Hantek directly into the trash, because, trust me, it was not OK for learning.

That's all.

[balnazzar]

That is a bit of a long story. I bought a Siglent SDS2000 (2.5k euro) when it was released. It was so horrible with no outlook on Siglent getting it fixed to an acceptable level that I more or less threw it in the bin (Siglent didn't want to take it back) and I ended up spending more money on a used A-brand scope. Nowadays Siglent scopes are better and people seem to be happy with them. OTOH, I buy test equipment to make money and I need equipment to work as expected instead of throwing me a curve ball at the worst possible moment. Based on the good experiences on this forum I recommended one of my customers to buy some Siglent gear but that turned out to be a horrible mistake. Basically they wasted their money and spend a bunch of hours on an issue that was a fault in the Siglent equipment. In the end buying A-brand equipment was cheaper. Personally I stay clear from Siglent equipment for any serious work (same for Rigol BTW) since then. Their firmware quality control just isn't good enough for me to work with.

Our usage cases are very different, of course. Yet, that's still an useful opinion. Thanks.

Particularly, it's significant that a professional using A-brands still finds the Instek being OK (or even enjoyable) to use.

[2N3055]

@2N3055 [I'll avoid quoting multiple chunks]

No need to be sorry for being direct/blunt as long as one elaborates, and you did. Only allow me to say I don't know if I want to promote 'adversarial discussions'. If that means I'd like people reporting something along "I owned these scopes and I found that that one was better at such and such tasks, while the other..", then that's exactly what I wanted: usage experience.

The discussion doesn't seem to go in circles. Only recently the Instek popped up, and it's an alternative I didn't knew about. I'm trying to gather information about it. Preferably, comparative information (see below), and subjective impressions indeed.

UI responsiveness is important for me, since I had a bad experience with a scope that looked OK (for the price) on the datasheet, but had so a sluggish UI that it was basically not usable. Along the same line, the MSO5000 looked like a no-brainer for the price on the datasheet (8 MSa/s, 2 Ch awg, external trigger, 9" touch, independent channel control, and whatnot), but the same datasheet doesn't specify that it is so noisy.
 
What do 'intuitiveness' mean: that for doing a certain operation or access a certain function, you don't have to fiddle across multiple menus for two minutes.

More detail about my usage scenario: I just took a course in general electromagnetism at the university. We studie basic circuits with linear components. Now I have to take a 1-semester course in Electronics, and I'd like not to be dependent upon the laboratory at the university. Plus, I'm starting to enjoy the matter, and will likely keep studying it independently.

Now I understand that from the standpoint of a person having years upon years of experience, a beginner bothering people for a 500$-class scope may sound silly, and that any scope would be ok(-ish?) for learning, but I'm just trying to spend my (hardly earned) money the best way I can, and avoid spending more within just a few weeks or months. If I had no return options, I would have had to fling that Hantek directly into the trash, because, trust me, it was not OK for learning.

That's all.

Thank you for not quoting multiple chunks.. 
As I said sorry for being blunt. Sometimes it is faster and easier but lacks finesse.. I didn't mean that you are inciting things deliberately but  that discussion kinda going that way because of not too well defined target..It tends to do that on Internet..

And now back to useful stuff.
As for scopes, there seems to be level of scopes, roughly beneath Rigol DS1000Z, that I guess are better than not having any scope but in reality nothing but toys.
If you had one of these your frustration is understandable.

In my opinion none of the scopes mentioned (even Rigol DS1000Z) are not sluggish to the point of being problem. That being said, there is a small number of people that expect absolutely instantaneous response for every function, even when with FFT settings they set scope needs 10 seconds to do capture...

GDS is nice little scope but feels outdated (a bit old school, which is not a problem per se). It has toyish look (I don't care). One thing that shows age is screen rendering, where it's digital phosphorus emulation (emulation of analog CRT) is very "digital" and is not very realistic. Some don't care, some find it it looks like a 1980es Commodore 64... I think it is usable but it definitely doesn't look anything like analog CRT scope. It also has only one AD converter that makes it sample at only 250MS/s at 4 ch.

SDS1104X-E has better screen rendering, dot mode, color grading etc.. It has 2 ADC so never samples at less than 500MS/s. It uses same processor platform as GDS. It has very good Bode plot software..

MSO5000 is more modern type of platform. Bigger screen. Touchscreen. It visible delays refreshing screen on some operations..Is it a problem to you or not I don't know. Some people like it fine, some find it unusable. I find much more expensive R&S RTB2000 slow screen updates on par with MSO5000 and both of them sometimes slowish. And usable. I don't know, never used them in a hurry, being nervous... Maybe they would be annoying then. Bode plot on MSO5000 looks like a something implemented just so it can be listed on datasheet. It nominaly has a feature but it is simplistic and not very elaborate. It has many other features though..

Having a low budget and trying to be responsible with your money is nothing to frown upon. I respect that and it is a smart thing to do. But it does limits you to a range where compromises had to be made to deliver decent instrument for that kind of money. So it is pretty much for you to decide what compromises are acceptable for you.

Looking at that last answer, you will need a complete small lab, not only scope. Make note of that, I don't know what else you have but there will be budget for that too..

best,
Sinisa

[balnazzar]

Thanks for your detailed reply. Based upon the other replies and yours, I think it's better to rule out the MSO5000.

As for the home lab, I bought two multimeters, a little soldering station with spare parts for soldering, desk mats, an arduino board with accessories, kits of linear an nonlinear components, and the Uni-T 2-channel waveform generator (30 MHz), not mentioning the little Owon 40 MHz handheld scope.

All of that already required some amount of money, which subtracts from the grand total I can allocate.

Going back to the scope, it boils down to the Siglent and the Instek. I'll think and brood a few more days about the information you all gave me (and the datasheets  ) and then I'll make a decision, aware of the fact that it will be the wrong decision, by Murphy's law.

 

[2N3055]

Thanks for your detailed reply. Based upon the other replies and yours, I think it's better to rule out the MSO5000.

As for the home lab, I bought two multimeters, a little soldering station with spare parts for soldering, desk mats, an arduino board with accessories, kits of linear an nonlinear components, and the Uni-T 2-channel waveform generator (30 MHz), not mentioning the little Owon 40 MHz handheld scope.

All of that already required some amount of money, which subtracts from the grand total I can allocate.

Going back to the scope, it boils down to the Siglent and the Instek. I'll think and brood a few more days about the information you all gave me (and the datasheets  ) and then I'll make a decision, aware of the fact that it will be the wrong decision, by Murphy's law.

It won't be wrong just maybe suboptimal... 

[balnazzar]

One thing I noticed it that Siglent's remote control seems to be pretty decent:

https://youtu.be/Cxh_Liay09E?t=132

This partly solves the problem of having a small screen on the scope itself.

I wasn't able to find any information about the Instek on that matter. Any input would be welcome.

[2N3055]

One thing I noticed it that Siglent's remote control seems to be pretty decent:

https://youtu.be/Cxh_Liay09E?t=132

This partly solves the problem of having a small screen on the scope itself.

I wasn't able to find any information about the Instek on that matter. Any input would be welcome.

That is part of old school. It does not have it.

[balnazzar]

One thing I noticed it that Siglent's remote control seems to be pretty decent:

https://youtu.be/Cxh_Liay09E?t=132

This partly solves the problem of having a small screen on the scope itself.

I wasn't able to find any information about the Instek on that matter. Any input would be welcome.

That is part of old school. It does not have it.

Thanks. I think that that makes the overall balance shift towards the Siglent.
I'll wait a further 24-48hrs not to rush things and then order the Siglent (and maybe other users will chime in, setting me back into indecision ).
The ability to fling the scope screen on my 27" inch monitor mounted on a VESA arm really is something I want to have.

Now that I think about it, it really escapes me why oscilloscopes manufacturers don't drill four holes on the back of their devices. It costs nothing, and would add a lot more practicality, rather than having the scope occupying space on the bench and getting into your way.

[Martin72]

Now that I think about it, it really escapes me why oscilloscopes manufacturers don't drill four holes on the back of their devices.

WORD 

[nctnico]

Now that I think about it, it really escapes me why oscilloscopes manufacturers don't drill four holes on the back of their devices. It costs nothing, and would add a lot more practicality, rather than having the scope occupying space on the bench and getting into your way.

AFAIK Tektronix has VESA mount holes on their oscilloscopes as a standard. But no other oscilloscope manufacturer seems to do this (does Tektronix have a patent or something?).

[balnazzar]

Now that I think about it, it really escapes me why oscilloscopes manufacturers don't drill four holes on the back of their devices. It costs nothing, and would add a lot more practicality, rather than having the scope occupying space on the bench and getting into your way.

AFAIK Tektronix has VESA mount holes on their oscilloscopes as a standard. But no other oscilloscope manufacturer seems to do this (does Tektronix have a patent or something?).

I don't think 4 holes on the back of a device can be patented..
I think I'll concoct some contraption to attach the scope to a vesa arm. It's definitely something I need.

[mwb1100]

I think I'll concoct some contraption to attach the scope to a vesa arm. It's definitely something I need.

That's a damn good idea - one of those "<slap your head> why didn't I think of that" moments.

It looks like either of these could be easily adapted to set (and strap) a scope on and bolt to a VESA mount (these are straight-up Amazon links - no embedded affiliate tags):

  - https://www.amazon.com/VIVO-Monitor-Devices-Speakers-MOUNT-SF01M/dp/B09MSWPMF7
  - https://www.amazon.com/VIVO-Monitor-Profile-Platform-Mount-SFVA1/dp/B0971PTQ63

[nctnico]

Now that I think about it, it really escapes me why oscilloscopes manufacturers don't drill four holes on the back of their devices. It costs nothing, and would add a lot more practicality, rather than having the scope occupying space on the bench and getting into your way.

AFAIK Tektronix has VESA mount holes on their oscilloscopes as a standard. But no other oscilloscope manufacturer seems to do this (does Tektronix have a patent or something?).

I don't think 4 holes on the back of a device can be patented..
I think I'll concoct some contraption to attach the scope to a vesa arm. It's definitely something I need.

You can buy shelves that bolt on Vesa arms. Random Google find:
https://www.amazon.com/VIVO-Monitor-Devices-Speakers-MOUNT-SF01M/dp/B09MSWPMF7

[balnazzar]

Good tips!

[tautech]

One thing I noticed it that Siglent's remote control seems to be pretty decent:

https://youtu.be/Cxh_Liay09E?t=132

This partly solves the problem of having a small screen on the scope itself.

I wasn't able to find any information about the Instek on that matter. Any input would be welcome.

If you haven't got LAN right there on the bench and some portability could be useful get a TP-Link TL-WN725N N150 Nano USB Wi-Fi Adapter to use in the scope.

[nctnico]

The ability to fling the scope screen on my 27" inch monitor mounted on a VESA arm really is something I want to have.

If that is the case, then why not get a USB oscilloscope?

[Fungus]

AFAIK Tektronix has VESA mount holes on their oscilloscopes as a standard.

I could be wrong but I got the impression it was only on that new model, and mostly because it's usually screwed to a pretty stand.



Lots of people have commented on it though. Maybe it will become more common.

[balnazzar]

The ability to fling the scope screen on my 27" inch monitor mounted on a VESA arm really is something I want to have.

If that is the case, then why not get a USB oscilloscope?

Mainly because it's nice to have the web interface (or hdmi, like the mso5K) but maybe it's a bit unwise to give up integrated display, buttons and knobs altogether.

Anyway, apart from the Picos, what quality usb scope are present on the market? Consider that a 4-channel Pico around 100 MHz exceed the cost of the scopes we discussed in this thread. I think they start around 1500 eur.

[nctnico]

I can't imagine PicoScope is the only manufacturer of decent USB oscilloscopes out there. But I have not really investigated that market segment myself.

[Fungus]

The ability to fling the scope screen on my 27" inch monitor mounted on a VESA arm really is something I want to have.

nb. You don't get any more pixels. It's just the 'scope's screen scaled to a window.

With a USB 'scope (or Analog Discovery) you actually get more information on screen when you make the window bigger.

HDMI capture for a PC can be had very cheaply. https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=hdmi+capture+usb

I'm not sure I'd give up a touch screen interface on the 'scope just to have remote access from a PC.

[Fungus]

Another option would be a modern Micsig oscilloscope combined with Analog Discovery for the bode plots. 

Micsigs are a joy to use. (it's what I own)

Analog Discoverys have a 14-bit ADC for the bode plots and can also do logic analysis for your Arduino.


Edit: You can download the Analog Discovery software and use the "analog" part for free with your PC sound card. It does oscilloscope, spectrum analysis, bode plots...

[Martin72]

Hi,

1. If the OS is fast and responsive, compared to Instek's.
2. If the user interface is intuitive to use (again, compared to the Instek's).

Both can be answered by someone who works with all of the mentioned scopes - And then it´s his own impression.
In my case, I got following "scope owning history":

- Rigol DS1000Z
- Rigol DS2000
- Siglent SDS1104X-E
- Rigol MSO5000
- Siglent SDS2000Xplus
- Siglent SDS2000X HD (actual scope)

GW Instek never came into my mind, maybe they making good scopes and nearly nobody knows about, or they knowing about it and this may explain their place by the hobbyists. 

Interesting. Two questions:

1. Why did you switch from the 2K plus to the 2K HD?
2. How did the MSO5K compare with the SDS1104X-E *purely in terms of noise and OS/UI quickness*?

Thanks.

Sorry, overlooked this...

1. Because of the 12bit - To be honest, it´s a buy for the "future" when I´ll need to have 12 bit resolution, actually I didn´t need it urgently.
Most of the hobbyists won´t need this...
In general you(and others) would be surprised how "less" you really need...
I had the 2000X+ over 2 yrs, ordered three for our testfield at work where they´re used everyday without any issues.
The 2000X+ is (in my opnion) the benchmark what "lower midrange" scopes concerns.
Yes low, the 1400€ is "nothing" in the scope world...
I´ve also ordered a current probe from siglent - It costs over 1000€ more than the three SDS2104X+ together...

2. This is a little bit "unfair", as the MSO5000 got a more complex UI in compare with the 1104X-E.
The touch response is indeed a little bit "laggy", but you can avoid it by using a mouse.
Fan noise was annoying, after the upgrade it was less but still hearable.
Noise on the 1104X-E was similar to the MSO5000 after it´s upgrade.
In both cases not really silent but this is only disturbing when it´s totally calm in your room.

[nctnico]

Another option would be a modern Micsig oscilloscope combined with Analog Discovery for the bode plots. 

That is a good option as well but would exceed the total budget.

[Fungus]

That is a good option as well but would exceed the total budget.

It's in the ballpark of an MSO5000.

[thm_w]

But I need decent Bode plots.

I'll echo 2N3055's opinion here. Sounds like someone who doesn't understand what they need or why.
If this is for beginner hobby use, then any instrument that supports bode plots will likely be fine.

If this is for actual design use where parameters are critical, then you'd either be:
- Using a dedicated device (as mentioned above, eg audio specific)
- Using various equipment with USB/LAN capability and pulling the data into your own plotting setup on a PC

[2N3055]

Another option would be a modern Micsig oscilloscope combined with Analog Discovery for the bode plots. 

Micsigs are a joy to use. (it's what I own)

Analog Discoverys have a 14-bit ADC for the bode plots and can also do logic analysis for your Arduino.


Edit: You can download the Analog Discovery software and use the "analog" part for free with your PC sound card. It does oscilloscope, spectrum analysis, bode plots...

Micsig scopes don't even have statistics in basic measurements. Or segmented capture in their lower priced models.
It is very nice and useful portable scope and that is it.

To be honest, what is all this high recommendation for AD2 as a FRA device. I know it has Bode plot functionality but despite it's nominal 14bit resolution, it has only 2 measurement ranges. What is actual performance of it performing stability analysis on a switcher PSU? Dynamic range and complete amplitude range? How well it performs in presence of noise?
I searched and found no real performance figures in real world scenarios..
I also found some claiming problems :
https://ashwinschronicles.github.io/analog-discovery-2-labview-home-bundle-review

So what is real performance of AD2?

[Fungus]

Micsig scopes don't even have statistics in basic measurements. Or segmented capture in their lower priced models.

Maybe not everybody needs it. I can't say I've missed having it since I traded in my Rigol.

The Micsig is way faster/easier to use, I don't regret the loss of a few "checkbox" features at all.

[Fungus]

I also found some claiming problems :
https://ashwinschronicles.github.io/analog-discovery-2-labview-home-bundle-review

Seems like most of them were due to him trying to use it as a power supply to drive 4 Ohm loads over a long USB cable from a laptop.

So what is real performance of AD2?

I don't have exact figures but I'm 100% sure it costs a lot less money than a Siglent HD series.

[Martin72]

I don't have exact figures but I'm 100% sure it costs a lot less money than a Siglent HD series.

 

Context please.

[Fungus]

I don't have exact figures but I'm 100% sure it costs a lot less money than a Siglent HD series.

 

Context please.

The context is "Bode plots" - see thread title.

I wasn't aware anybody here was considering it for stability analysis on a switcher PSU. I was thinking more that OP wanted Bode Plots and had mentioned wanting to do it on his 27" PC monitor.

[tautech]

I was thinking more that OP wanted Bode Plots and had mentioned wanting to do it on his 27" PC monitor.

Which he could do with a $499 DSO and webserver connection using his already acquired AWG, a Uni-T IIRC however I'm not 100% is anyone has scripted a Uni-T yet to talk to Siglent Bode plot control.
A $360 SDG1032X would fix that and still beat a MSO5k budget.

[nctnico]

Micsig scopes don't even have statistics in basic measurements. Or segmented capture in their lower priced models.

Maybe not everybody needs it. I can't say I've missed having it since I traded in my Rigol.

Agreed. I rather have good decoding and deep memory always on instead of segmented recording and statistics.

Edit: as has been written before: in the lower end there will be comprises to be made; there is no perfect scope that does all.

[Fungus]

Re: The AD2.

Just to be 100% clear: The AD2 is NOT a great oscilloscope, it will never replace a bench oscilloscope.

What it IS is a general purpose electronics tool, it does all sorts of clever/useful things.

It might help to think of it as a "Swiss Army Knife" - they're not the greatest knife in the world but they have all sorts of other tools like screwdrivers and scissors and saws.

Check out all the modules here:

https://digilent.com/shop/software/digilent-waveforms/

Edit: It looks like they forgot the curve tracer...

What is actual performance of it performing stability analysis on a switcher PSU? Dynamic range and complete amplitude range? How well it performs in presence of noise?
I searched and found no real performance figures in real world scenarios ..what is real performance of AD2?

That's completely the wrong way to think about the AD2.

I know it has Bode plot functionality but despite it's nominal 14bit resolution, it has only 2 measurement ranges.

Yep. 5V and 20V ranges.

If you're doing Bode Plots at 100mV (or above) then it'll work just fine.

(maybe even at 50mV).

[balnazzar]

nb. You don't get any more pixels. It's just the 'scope's screen scaled to a window.

I suspected that. It can still be useful, but I was aiming for a glorious 4K, 27" representation of my signals.

With a USB 'scope (or Analog Discovery) you actually get more information on screen when you make the window bigger.

HDMI capture for a PC can be had very cheaply. https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=hdmi+capture+usb

I'm not sure I'd give up a touch screen interface on the 'scope just to have remote access from a PC.

Would you recommend some usb scopes with good software?
I know that the AD2 is good for the price, but it's just 30 Mhz. Which, with the 5X, means that you get to observe signals, accurately, up to just 6 MHz.
The Picoscopes are expensive as hell (I could get the 70 MHz maximum, at ~850 eur) , and the software doesn't appear to be so great.

Thanks for the tip about hdmi capture, I didn't know that!

[balnazzar]

Edit: You can download the Analog Discovery software and use the "analog" part for free with your PC sound card. It does oscilloscope, spectrum analysis, bode plots...

But up to what? 44 KHz?

[Fungus]

But up to what? 44 KHz?

Whatever your sound card is capable of.

The AD2 software supports sound cards up to 384kHz sample rate.

[balnazzar]

In both cases not really silent but this is only disturbing when it´s totally calm in your room.

Which usually is, since I'm a silence maniac, and spent a great deal of money to build an ultra-silent desktop PC.

Truth being told, I think I want too much without having the budget.

[nctnico]

Truth being told, I think I want too much without having the budget.

Welcome to the club 

The best way forward is to make a short list with pros & cons and decide based on that. Whatever you buy now, you'll buy a different oscilloscope in a few years. Maybe even have two or more oscilloscopes which complement eachother. At the moment I have 5, each with their strengths and weaknesses.

[balnazzar]

That is a good option as well but would exceed the total budget.

It's in the ballpark of an MSO5000.

Bartronix sells the 4 chs with the joystics for 650 euros. Consider that AD2, impedance analyzer and bnc adapter are almost at 500.

I'd be 200 eur more than the mso5074. The Siglent would save me 130 bucks.
But apart from that, from what I've read about the Micsigs, they compare as follows with the 499$ siglent.

Micsig pros:
- Very good build quality
- Battery powered, portable.
- Snappy UI, with Android.
Cons:
- Not expandable with a logic probe
- No Bodes
- No statistics, as noted above.
- Not hackable to 200 MHz

I was thinking more that OP wanted Bode Plots and had mentioned wanting to do it on his 27" PC monitor.

Which he could do with a $499 DSO and webserver connection using his already acquired AWG, a Uni-T IIRC however I'm not 100% is anyone has scripted a Uni-T yet to talk to Siglent Bode plot control.
A $360 SDG1032X would fix that and still beat a MSO5k budget.

Indeed, no one has scripted for the UNI-T wg. I checked.

But Fungus is right in saying that the web interface will just make a mere 800x600 picture bigger, and more coarse grained.
OTOH, it seems there are no decent (100 MHz, good software) usb scopes for <1000 bucks. And software is very important if you are going to give up buttons and knobs.
 

[balnazzar]

Truth being told, I think I want too much without having the budget.

Welcome to the club 

The best way forward is to make a short list with pros & cons and decide based on that. Whatever you buy now, you'll buy a different oscilloscope in a few years. Maybe even have two oscilloscopes which complement eachother. At the moment I have 5, each with their strengths and weaknesses.

Here is what I think will be the wisest purchases with my limited budget: The little Siglent and the AD2. Here is why:

I'll get a real scope with 2 ADCs, 100 MHz by default, possibly hackable to 200. This would give me bandwidth to grow within.
It can also mirror its admittedly puny 800x600 screen on a big monitor. Will look pixelated, but it can ease the effort on my eyes during long probing sessions, something that the Instek cannot do.

With the AD2 I'll have practical usb scope, with limited bandwtdth, but with very good software that will do fine with my 4K monitor. It will give me immediate Bode plotting capabilities. If I need more, at higher frequencies, I will buy a Siglent 60 MHz SDG in the future.

Edit: as has been written before: in the lower end there will be comprises to be made; there is no perfect scope that does all.

It would not be difficult to make such a machine. It's just that it's a terribly conservative industry, from what I'm seeing.

[balnazzar]

The Micsig is way faster/easier to use, I don't regret the loss of a few "checkbox" features at all.

Tell me one thing: when you connect the Micsig with the hdmi, does it still do just 800x600? Thanks.

[Fungus]

Edit: as has been written before: in the lower end there will be comprises to be made; there is no perfect scope that does all.

It would not be difficult to make such a machine.

They don't do it because they want to be able to sell mid and high end machines, too.

[tautech]

Just be sure you've checked out the input limitations of an AD2 .....hardly anything like the 400V rated inputs on the X-E.
Instead investment in a SAG2021I for $165 will get you up and running with Bode plots immediately as no licensing is required unless you use the FG capability.

[Fungus]

The Micsig is way faster/easier to use, I don't regret the loss of a few "checkbox" features at all.

Tell me one thing: when you connect the Micsig with the hdmi, does it still do just 800x600? Thanks.

Yes.

[nctnico]

Just be sure you've checked out the input limitations of an AD2 .....hardly anything like the 400V rated inputs on the X-E.

Doesn't matter when the AD2 is used for bode plotting and logic analysis only. The AD2 is not pretending to be a universal oscilloscope but rather more like a specialised high resolution data acquisition tool. I don't have one but it has several features that can be very handy in some situations.

[tautech]

Some SDS1104X-E screenshots of the webserver from 1 of the 24" monitors on my PC for balnazzar to consider.

We can view in 3 modes and the blue X at bottom right takes the scope display to full screen whereas the blue bar top right of the display pops out or hides the virtual scope controls. PC display must be no greater that 100% scaling to fit both the display and controls within the width of the PC display.
In webserver mode you have both local and remote control of the scope.

PC Esc button exits full screen mode.

BTW, just viewing these now posted, they are filling ~2/3rd of the width on my monitor whereas they were screenshotted full width.

[2N3055]

The Micsig is way faster/easier to use, I don't regret the loss of a few "checkbox" features at all.

Tell me one thing: when you connect the Micsig with the hdmi, does it still do just 800x600? Thanks.

None of the embedded scopes will change resolution when outside monitor is connected.

[balnazzar]

Just be sure you've checked out the input limitations of an AD2 .....hardly anything like the 400V rated inputs on the X-E.
Instead investment in a SAG2021I for $165 will get you up and running with Bode plots immediately as no licensing is required unless you use the FG capability.

Mh, it's actually a good price. Apart from its 1.5-3V limit and slightly lower sampling rate, what are its limitations with respect, say, a SDG1000X? Thanks.

[tautech]

Just be sure you've checked out the input limitations of an AD2 .....hardly anything like the 400V rated inputs on the X-E.
Instead investment in a SAG2021I for $165 will get you up and running with Bode plots immediately as no licensing is required unless you use the FG capability.

Mh, it's actually a good price. Apart from its 1.5-3V limit and slightly lower sampling rate, what are its limitations with respect, say, a SDG1000X? Thanks.

Datasheet time !

SAG1021I>P13. These have the benefit of an isolated output, ie. not referenced to mains earth.
https://www.siglenteu.com//wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2021/08/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_EN04D.pdf

SDG1000X
https://www.siglenteu.com//wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2022/06/SDG1000X_DataSheet_DS0201X_E01I.pdf

[2N3055]

Re: The AD2.

Just to be 100% clear: The AD2 is NOT a great oscilloscope, it will never replace a bench oscilloscope.

What it IS is a general purpose electronics tool, it does all sorts of clever/useful things.

It might help to think of it as a "Swiss Army Knife" - they're not the greatest knife in the world but they have all sorts of other tools like screwdrivers and scissors and saws.

Check out all the modules here:

https://digilent.com/shop/software/digilent-waveforms/

Edit: It looks like they forgot the curve tracer...

What is actual performance of it performing stability analysis on a switcher PSU? Dynamic range and complete amplitude range? How well it performs in presence of noise?
I searched and found no real performance figures in real world scenarios ..what is real performance of AD2?

That's completely the wrong way to think about the AD2.

I know it has Bode plot functionality but despite it's nominal 14bit resolution, it has only 2 measurement ranges.

Yep. 5V and 20V ranges.

If you're doing Bode Plots at 100mV (or above) then it'll work just fine.

(maybe even at 50mV).

And maybe not.
Like I said, you don't know. You don't own AD2 and have no knowledge or experience with measurement of Bode plots with it.  Your body of knowledge on this topic is "maybe" same as mine. And it is a 400 € device you recommend.

In an article I linked there were problems found with measurements on AD2. Basically, they wanted to use it for serious measurement and found that some of implemented measurements were a bit simplistic and not stable and reliable at higher frequencies. I have no idea if that is fixed or not but that made me think.

Plenty people are recommending AD2 but there is no real performance verification anywhere to be found.
As I don't own AD2 I asked for real data from someone who owns it or link to some real performance verification.
I'm not saying it is bad, I'm saying we don't know...

And yes, only 5V and 20V voltage range is a serious limitation. If you use it with 10x probes it becomes 50V and 200V range.
When you are trying to measure loop stability, voltages are sometimes minuscule (very small). Whole regulation loop is fighting to set error voltage to zero... That is why good sensitivity and best possible ADC is needed.

On Micisg: statistics on measurements is a basic thing. And I miss it all the time on the Micsig and am completely baffled why they didn't make it... Yes I do own STO1104C..

[egonotto]

Hello,

the SDS1104X-E  has only a Display Resolution of 800×480.

But I think it is a great scope.

The Analog Discovery and Analog Discovery 2 are small laboratories much more than a scope. They are practical in combination with breadboards. I am biased and I like them, but in the meantime they have become very expensive. Maybe you'll get them academically.

I have an Analog Discovery an Analog Discovery 2 and a Digital Discovery. If 2N3055 or someone else wants to have something tested I try it if my place (20 cm * 40 cm) is enough.

Best regards
egonotto

[balnazzar]

Plenty people are recommending AD2 but there is no real performance verification anywhere to be found.

I'm investigating. For example: https://hackaday.com/2018/06/20/analog-discovery-2-as-a-vector-network-analyzer/

Is the Discover 2’s NA mode useful? Yes. Is it perfect? No. The interconnect issue gets more and more problematic the higher you go in frequency. If you already have one of these, by all means, use the NA, especially for lower frequency work. But if you really need an NA, this probably isn’t going to be your first choice.

Also, from: https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/technical-articles/tool-review-analog-discovery-2-by-digilent/

The AD2 also includes a spectrum analyzer and a network analyzer with Bode plot capabilities. Each of these tools can be used for analysis up to 10MHz and are available for each oscilloscope channel input.

Only 10 MHz. I previously thought it got up to 30...

Also, reviewing the AD2's scope in general, from: https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/analog-discovery-2-vs-other-pc-based-oscilloscopes-is-ad2-worth-the-hype/

Hence, while the ADC might support a high sampling rate, we might lose some details of the input signal simply because of the lack of memory.

It just has 16K memory depth.

From various Reddit posts (AskElectronics):

1. I used an AD2 last quarter in my microprocessor system design class as an oscilloscope, logic analyzer, and frequency generator. It can do other things but I mainly used those.
It worked well but I much rather prefer a regular oscilloscope as it can be difficult to analyze fast signals. But it's a great bang for your buck. Think of it as a swiss army knife. A ton of neat tools in a small package, but all the tools are meh. Usable but meh at best.\

2. I love my AD2. It’s a Swiss Army knife of tools and fits in my backpack. I’ve used it to gather data for the last couple papers I published. It’s scope and logic analyzer has some features that do not come on your basic scopes (at least not without several upgrade tiers). It definitely has limitations with resolution, but will be fine for most non performance critical things. It is also scriptable with its own language or through a python or matlab friendly api.

A video review (may be useful for future reader of this thread):
The software seems to be indeed very good, far better than the software that comes with bench scopes, even top brand (although I just seen Siglent's and Keysight's at the university).

The NA is reviewed starting from here: https://youtu.be/0nFFJT1oV34?t=287, but it doesn't say much, apart from platitudes.

[balnazzar]

I have an Analog Discovery an Analog Discovery 2 and a Digital Discovery. If 2N3055 or someone else wants to have something tested I try it if my place (20 cm * 40 cm) is enough.

Thanks, man. 

Could you please check the limits of the Network Analyzer? Does it really gets to 10 MHz and not more (or less)?

Also, can you confirm that the software is complete, functional, and overall better than the sw that comes generally with bench scopes?

[2N3055]

Hello,

the SDS1104X-E  has only a Display Resolution of 800×480.

But I think it is a great scope.

The Analog Discovery and Analog Discovery 2 are small laboratories much more than a scope. They are practical in combination with breadboards. I am biased and I like them, but in the meantime they have become very expensive. Maybe you'll get them academically.

I have an Analog Discovery an Analog Discovery 2 and a Digital Discovery. If 2N3055 or someone else wants to have something tested I try it if my place (20 cm * 40 cm) is enough.

Best regards
egonotto

Thank you, you are very kind.
In the light of these discussions, I would like to know how well it would fare doing classic stability analysys, on a simple opamp circuit or a simple PSU.  Siglent has A.N. : https://www.siglenteu.com/application-note/power-supply-loop-response-bodeii/ where simple PSU is measured. Something like that.
Regards,
Sinisa

[2N3055]

I have an Analog Discovery an Analog Discovery 2 and a Digital Discovery. If 2N3055 or someone else wants to have something tested I try it if my place (20 cm * 40 cm) is enough.

Thanks, man. 

Could you please check the limits of the Network Analyzer? Does it really gets to 10 MHz and not more (or less)?

Also, can you confirm that the software is complete, functional, and overall better than the sw that comes generally with bench scopes?

Limit will be 10 MHz because that is the limit of internal waveform generator. Scope bandwidth is better, up to 30 MHz.

You can download software for free and use it with audio card in PC. In fact, you can try Bode plot with it if you make out breakout cables for audio card. Of course within audio range and with limited drive..

[balnazzar]

Limit will be 10 MHz because that is the limit of internal waveform generator. Scope bandwidth is better, up to 30 MHz.

So, if I stimulate the circuit with an external WG, the AD2 will bodeplot its response? Thanks.

[Frex]

Hello,

the SDS1104X-E  has only a Display Resolution of 800×480.

But I think it is a great scope.

The Analog Discovery and Analog Discovery 2 are small laboratories much more than a scope. They are practical in combination with breadboards. I am biased and I like them, but in the meantime they have become very expensive. Maybe you'll get them academically.

I have an Analog Discovery an Analog Discovery 2 and a Digital Discovery. If 2N3055 or someone else wants to have something tested I try it if my place (20 cm * 40 cm) is enough.

Best regards
egonotto

Thank you, you are very kind.
In the light of these discussions, I would like to know how well it would fare doing classic stability analysys, on a simple opamp circuit or a simple PSU.  Siglent has A.N. : https://www.siglenteu.com/application-note/power-supply-loop-response-bodeii/ where simple PSU is measured. Something like that.
Regards,
Sinisa

Hello,

I own the AD1 for many years now, and even if i have many other equipments
it was very conveniant to use in many situations. Clearly the big difference with others
PC based intruments is the software side.
It seem designed and thinked by/with real hardware engineers (not a progammer).

To answer you, yes you can perform good gain/phase responses of  closed loop gain of SMPS
with it (and measure phase et gain margin). I used it for this some month ago for
a small DC/DC converter (5W push pull) and for a 1800W 1kV/24V PSU.
I both case it worked very well after setting well all parameters.
An exemple of result below, with the corresponding step response also made with AD1.
My 2 cents.
Regards.

Frex

[Fungus]

You don't own AD2...

Ummm....

[Fungus]

Also, can you confirm that the software is complete, functional, and overall better than the sw that comes generally with bench scopes?

As I said earlier, you can download and try the software for free.

[Fungus]

Dave also did a video on the AD1:



AFAIK the only real difference between the AD1 and AD2 is the on-board programmable power supplies.

(and a prettier case)

[egonotto]

Hello,

I tried a Bode plot with an LC oscillating circuit. The signal is severely disturbed, but it still worked to some extent. Enclosed the circuit (drawn with the mouse) and the Bode plot, the signals measured with the AD2 and a signal measured with the RTA4000.

Waveforms can now run the function generator with 25 MHz, but there is a warning. This means that the network analyzer now goes up to 25 MHz.

Best regards
egonotto

[Fungus]

FWIW: Here's a screenshot taken with my AD2 with nothing connected to the input. 5 or 10 mV is about as low as it usefully goes.

Below it is a heatmap view. Note that you can have different, simultaneous views of the input signal.



AD2 specs are here: https://digilent.com/reference/test-and-measurement/analog-discovery-2/specifications

[2N3055]

Limit will be 10 MHz because that is the limit of internal waveform generator. Scope bandwidth is better, up to 30 MHz.

So, if I stimulate the circuit with an external WG, the AD2 will bodeplot its response? Thanks.

No, Bode plot and impedance analysis works by controlling generator and scope in synchronization.  AD2 has internal AWG and uses that one...No support for external AWG.

[egonotto]

Hello,

here is a 25 MHz sine with 1Vpp generated by the AD2.


Best regards
egonotto

[2N3055]

You don't own AD2...

Ummm....

OK I was wrong on that. I stand corrected.
That is excellent news..
Why are you then repeating stuff from marketing pamphlets instead showing us how well it works?
In Siglent's A.N. I linked there is very simple PSU made from common components. It is easy to replicate. Instead of expensive transformer, you can use largest common mode choke you can find and use that one. It'll work well enough.
And then run analysis and show us results, please.
I'm really curious to see how well it works. If it works well (or at least decent) it is a good news. It will also be directly applicable to OP question and comparisons to SDS1104X-E mentioned here..

[Fungus]

So, if I stimulate the circuit with an external WG, the AD2 will bodeplot its response? Thanks.

No, Bode plot and impedance analysis works by controlling generator and scope in synchronization.  AD2 has internal AWG and uses that one...No support for external AWG.

Weird. My copy of the manual says the generator can be external. You might know that if you owned an AD2...



PS: Can your oscilloscope do this?

[egonotto]

Hello,

now the Bode plot with the LC oscillating circuit with lower C.

The Network Analyser of AD2 goes with the new Waveforms till 25 MHz

Best regard
egonotto

[JeremyC]

FWIW: Here's a screenshot taken with my AD2 with nothing connected to the input. 5 or 10 mV is about as low as it usefully goes without 50 Ohm terminated stuff (yes, it has a real 50 Ohm termination).

Fungus, the "Discovery BNC" board doesn't have 50 Ohm input termination. The JP4 and JP5 jumpers are for AWG output.

[balnazzar]

Also, can you confirm that the software is complete, functional, and overall better than the sw that comes generally with bench scopes?

As I said earlier, you can download and try the software for free.

The problem is interfacing the soundcard with the probes (I'm trying to understand how to). I installed the software, but I should do something real with it.

[balnazzar]

Hello,

I tried a Bode plot with an LC oscillating circuit. The signal is severely disturbed, but it still worked to some extent. Enclosed the circuit (drawn with the mouse) and the Bode plot, the signals measured with the AD2 and a signal measured with the RTA4000.

Waveforms can now run the function generator with 25 MHz, but there is a warning. This means that the network analyzer now goes up to 25 MHz.

Best regards
egonotto

Thanks! This was very useful information.

Why is the signal from the LC oscillator so disturbed? I mean, it seems to be so even with the other instrument (presumably a more expensive dedicated NA, as far as I understand).

[balnazzar]

Limit will be 10 MHz because that is the limit of internal waveform generator. Scope bandwidth is better, up to 30 MHz.

So, if I stimulate the circuit with an external WG, the AD2 will bodeplot its response? Thanks.

No, Bode plot and impedance analysis works by controlling generator and scope in synchronization.  AD2 has internal AWG and uses that one...No support for external AWG.

I still don't understand why the integrated WG and NA can get to 25 MHz (not bad!) but they advertise the WG to be capable of just 10 MHz...

[balnazzar]

Weird. My copy of the manual says the generator can be external. You might know that if you owned an AD2...

That's even better news! 

[balnazzar]

Folks, I'm very appreciative with all of you that took time to answer my questions (admittedly ill-posed). Even more useful is the discussion among more informed contributors, regardless of my questions.

I think this thread could be an useful resource for those who'll want to pick up a first scope with limited budged, and it's also (afaik) the first thread on eevblog that discusses the capabilities of the AD2 by providing examples and underlining little but important things that are overlooked in the reviews.

[JeremyC]

balnazzar, few months ago "The Signal Path" did review the ADP3450 from Digilent. It's 4 channel and more advance instrument, but software is the same. I suggest you watch the video, you may want to start at minute 13:00.

 

[baldurn]

Yep, our most popular budget conscious pairing, SDS1104X-E and SDG1032X and those with a little more go for SDG2042X that if both are 'improved' pushes out to the 120 MHz max of Siglent Bode plot capability.

I just bought a SDS1104X-E + SDG1032X for our local maker space. I got higher end equipment myself but this combo seems excellent for the beginner, for teaching and really for most. We can do almost everything up to RF work at HAM level. Lots of talk about the intuitiveness of instruments in this thread but what about the complete solution? Get those two, connect with the supplied USB cable and DONE. Start focusing on the actual electronics you want to do instead of the instruments.

I don't really get the budget constraints. The MSO5074 appears to be €799 at eleshop.eu. The SDS1104X-E is €429 and SDG1032X is €289 total €718 so why would it be out of budget?

Down the road you will be buying new toys. Do not think what you buy today, no matter the budget, will be the last thing you buy or upgrade :-). But in reality this is a very strong offer that many will never outgrow.

[Fungus]

FWIW: Here's a screenshot taken with my AD2 with nothing connected to the input. 5 or 10 mV is about as low as it usefully goes without 50 Ohm terminated stuff (yes, it has a real 50 Ohm termination).

Fungus, the "Discovery BNC" board doesn't have 50 Ohm input termination. The JP4 and JP5 jumpers are for AWG output.

Oh, my bad... That's the output!

Post corrected.

[Fungus]

The problem is interfacing the soundcard with the probes (I'm trying to understand how to). I installed the software, but I should do something real with it.

You don't need probes, just use audio jack to crocodile clips cable (or something like that). Set attenuation to 1x.

[2N3055]

So, if I stimulate the circuit with an external WG, the AD2 will bodeplot its response? Thanks.

No, Bode plot and impedance analysis works by controlling generator and scope in synchronization.  AD2 has internal AWG and uses that one...No support for external AWG.

Weird. My copy of the manual says the generator can be external. You might know that if you owned an AD2...



PS: Can your oscilloscope do this?

Thank you for contributing quality content!!
Is this external generator recent addition? I did look into documentation when I was contemplating buying one and don't remember that.. It was long ago though..

One drawback of external generator implemented this way is that you cannot control it in this tracking mode. That means that variable level stimulus is not available which is not strictly necessary but is very helpful with difficult loads.
Also it doesn't know exact frequency but has to measure it, but that is not important because it is good enough. Frequency to mHz is not important here.

Also I don't argue Waveforms can make some pretty graphs. I was asking if measurements are accurate. As I said, there were some reports that phase measurements above 1 Mhz were inaccurate.. So I asked if someone did performance verification... Maybe they advertise only limited frequency on impedance plots because of limited accuracy..

I find responses from Frex and Eggonotto very useful here... You also gave some good info. 

[egonotto]

Hello,

I did the last measurement with the AD2 again with the RTA4000. But the burden is different. C = 41 pF and L = 0.7 uH therefore the load already has an influence.

Best regards
egonotto

[Fungus]

The MSO5074 appears to be €799 at eleshop.eu.

That's without tax so add 20% or so.

[JeremyC]

Hello,

here is a 25 MHz sine with 1Vpp generated by the AD2.


Best regards
egonotto

egonotto, FYI: You can enable sin(x)/x interpolation in the WaveForms and the "ad2_25MHz.png" will look smooth. The sin(x)/x in WaveForms is called "Smooth".

[JeremyC]

I attached images with harmonics content in 10MHz and 25MHz sine waves generated by the integrated AWG.
Since the spectrum analyzer in AD2 is limited by 50MHz, the 25MHz shows only 2nd harmonic.

 

[egonotto]

Hello,

thanks JeremyC.

Again the 25 MHz 1 Vpp from the AD2. The crosstalk is bad but comes from the cables. With the BNC adapter it is better and without cable it is even better but rather useless

Best regards
egonotto

[JeremyC]

Front-end noise. The AD2 is powered from laptop and the flywire cable is disconnected.
 1. 1mV/d, time base 1ms/d
 2. 1mV/d, time base 1us/d
 3. 10mV/d, time base 1ms/d
 4. 10mV/d, time base 1us/d

[JeremyC]

Hello,

thanks JeremyC.

Again the 25 MHz 1 Vpp from the AD2. The crosstalk is bad but comes from the cables. With the BNC adapter it is better and without cable it is even better but rather useless

Best regards
egonotto

Yes, I agree the crosstalk is annoying. Well, it's $399 (I bought my on e-bay for $240, "New, open box") minilab in small, unshielded package. Still, it's very useful for me.

[tautech]

Yep, our most popular budget conscious pairing, SDS1104X-E and SDG1032X and those with a little more go for SDG2042X that if both are 'improved' pushes out to the 120 MHz max of Siglent Bode plot capability.

I just bought a SDS1104X-E + SDG1032X for our local maker space. I got higher end equipment myself but this combo seems excellent for the beginner, for teaching and really for most. We can do almost everything up to RF work at HAM level. Lots of talk about the intuitiveness of instruments in this thread but what about the complete solution? Get those two, connect with the supplied USB cable and DONE. Start focusing on the actual electronics you want to do instead of the instruments.

I don't really get the budget constraints. The MSO5074 appears to be €799 at eleshop.eu. The SDS1104X-E is €429 and SDG1032X is €289 total €718 so why would it be out of budget?

Down the road you will be buying new toys. Do not think what you buy today, no matter the budget, will be the last thing you buy or upgrade :-). But in reality this is a very strong offer that many will never outgrow.

Yup, exactly and a very capable pairing and both hackable too if you must. 

With the 2ch AWG and XY mode in the SDS1104X-E we can also have a play at curve tracing too:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fooln-around-with-dso-awg/

[balnazzar]

The SDS1104X-E is €429 and SDG1032X is €289 total €718 so why would it be out of budget?

To be honest, these are prices without VAT. You have to add 22% to 718 eur.

[balnazzar]

Mh, it's actually a good price. Apart from its 1.5-3V limit and slightly lower sampling rate, what are its limitations with respect, say, a SDG1000X? Thanks.

Datasheet time !

SAG1021I>P13. These have the benefit of an isolated output, ie. not referenced to mains earth.
https://www.siglenteu.com//wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2021/08/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_EN04D.pdf

This is the datasheet for the scope. Even searching inside it for the WG, there is basically nothing. Is there a datasheet for the SAG1021i? I'm having trouble finding it... Thanks.

[nctnico]

With the 2ch AWG and XY mode in the SDS1104X-E we can also have a play at curve tracing too:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fooln-around-with-dso-awg/

You can do curve tracing like this with any 2 channel function generator and oscilloscope.

[tautech]

Mh, it's actually a good price. Apart from its 1.5-3V limit and slightly lower sampling rate, what are its limitations with respect, say, a SDG1000X? Thanks.

Datasheet time !

SAG1021I>P13. These have the benefit of an isolated output, ie. not referenced to mains earth.
https://www.siglenteu.com//wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2021/08/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_EN04D.pdf

This is the datasheet for the scope.

It is, and this is where the SAG1021 (now I version) info is plainly listed. Both the earlier and later versions have the same spec of which starts on P13 and continues onto a good chunk of P14.
 

Even searching inside it for the WG, there is basically nothing. Is there a datasheet for the SAG1021i? I'm having trouble finding it... Thanks.

No.

SAG models fit a # of Siglent scopes but as they are not a standalone device but instead optional to the scope which houses the UI for which to control it all specs and usage instructions are included in the scope datasheet and user manual.

Here, I've plucked out the SAG1021I specs from the scope datasheet:
USB AWG Module (four channel SDS1004X-E series option)
Channels 1
Max. Output Frequency 25 MHz
Sampling Rate 125 MSa/s
Frequency Resolution 1 μHz
Frequency Accuracy ±50 ppm
Vertical Resolution 14-bits
Amplitude Range -1.5 ～ +1.5 V (50Ω load) -3 ～ +3 V (High-Z load)
Waveform Type Sine, Square, Ramp, Pulse, Noise, DC and 45 built-in waveforms
Output impedance 50Ω ± 2%
Protection Over-Voltage Protection, Current-Limiting Protection
Insulation Voltage ±42 Vpk (for SAG2021I only)
Sine
Frequency 1 μHz～ 25 MHz
Offset Accuracy(10 kHz) ±(1%*Offset Setting Value +3 mVpp)
Amplitude flatness (10 kHz, 5Vpp) ±0.3 dB
SFDR DC～1 MHz -60dBc
1 MHz～5 MHz -55dBc
5 MHz～25 MHz -50dBc
HD DC～5 MHz -50dBc
5 MHz～25 MHz -45dBc
Square/Pulse
Frequency 1 μHz～ 1 0MHz
Duty Cycle 1% ～99%
Rise/Fall time < 24 ns (10% ～ 90%)
Overshoot(1kHz,1Vpp, Typical) < 3% (typical 1kHz, 1 Vpp)
Pulse Width > 50 ns
Jitter < 500 ps + 10 ppm
Ramp
Frequency 1 μHz～ 300 kHz
Linearity(Typical) < 0.1% of Pk-Pk (Typical, 1 kHz, 1 Vpp, 50% Symmetry)
Symmetry 0% ～ 100%
DC
Offset range ±1.5 V (50Ω load)
±3 V (High-Z load)
Accuracy ±(|offset|*1%+3 mV)
Noise
Bandwidth >25 MHz (-3dB)
Arbitrary Wave
Frequency 1 μHz～ 5 MHz
Wave Length 16 kpts
Sampling Rate 125MSa/s
Lead in EasyWave and U-Disk

Usage info is in the scope user manual on P186:
https://www.siglenteu.com//wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2021/08/SDS1000X-ESDS1000X-U_UserManual_EN05B.pdf


TBH the 4ch X-E scope and SDG1032X is the better pairing if you can afford it and provides for a wider range of needs and as such will serve you better into the future but really what would I know.....I only had these back in 2017 before public release and contributed a little in their development. Just a few months back features were added that we never imagined would be, now to make SDS1104X-E one of the most capable scopes in this price bracket ever produced.

[Fungus]

With the 2ch AWG and XY mode in the SDS1104X-E we can also have a play at curve tracing too:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fooln-around-with-dso-awg/

You can do curve tracing like this with any 2 channel function generator and oscilloscope.

Yep, and OP already owns a Uni-T signal generator.

[egonotto]

Hello,

@2N3055: For a stability analysis it seems to me that you need an injection transformer. Unfortunately, I don't have that.
The problem with such measurements seems to me to be the small voltage. This could be remedied with a suitable preamplifier.

Best regards
egonotto

[balnazzar]

Thanks, I searched for the string "SAG1021I" inside the datasheet, that's why I didn't find the damn specs...

[balnazzar]

Ok, ordered both the 1104x-e and the AD2 (with bnc adapter).

I'll evaluate if I also need another goddamn signal generator (that right now I couldn't buy in any case...).

[2N3055]

So, if I stimulate the circuit with an external WG, the AD2 will bodeplot its response? Thanks.

No, Bode plot and impedance analysis works by controlling generator and scope in synchronization.  AD2 has internal AWG and uses that one...No support for external AWG.

Weird. My copy of the manual says the generator can be external. You might know that if you owned an AD2...

PS: Can your oscilloscope do this?

Thank you for contributing quality content!!
Is this external generator recent addition? I did look into documentation when I was contemplation buying one and don't remember that.. It was long ago though..

One drawback of Bode plot with external generator implemented this way is that you cannot control it in this tracking mode. That means that variable level stimulus is not available which is not strictly necessary in theory, but is very important with difficult loads and with very low signals to get good measurements.
Also it doesn't know exact frequency but has to measure it, but that is not important because frequency to mHz is not very important here.

[2N3055]

Hello,

@2N3055: For a stability analysis it seems to me that you need an injection transformer. Unfortunately, I don't have that.
The problem with such measurements seems to me to be the small voltage. This could be remedied with a suitable preamplifier.

Best regards
egonotto

It has been show that you can use a common mode choke in a pinch.. I tried with Coilcraft CMT4-10-15L and it gave good enough results for noncritical work. Also I took one of these and removed windings and made windings from CAT6 cable (there was a topic here on making one at home) and that one worked well too.

You could use preamp. You can use external amplifier for gen too. As I said to Fungus, dynamic range is being extended by fact that some scopes have good sensitivity built in, and also if you have generator synchronized, you vary stimulus level.
But if you add preamp you need to scale manually.

Beauty of Siglent Bode Plot II is that all of those shenanigans are being taken care of automatically. It simply works.
Only other Bode plot software that I tried that was close to be so well integrated and streamlined in use is one in my Keysight 3000T. But only with built in generator, it cannot control external generator so it is limited in drive..

Siglent Bode Plot II support multiple channels, few more measurements etc. It really works well. It simply works..

[jasonRF]

Has the OP considered used equipment?  I don't know what the market and associated costs are when shopping from Europe, but in the US items like the Analog Discovery can be found with significant discounts.  An Analog Discovery 1 just sold on ebay a couple of days ago for $130.  Sure, it would cost an additional $40 for the BNC adapter and a couple of cheap probes, but it could still save $200 or more.   

I don't think I would go that route for my first 4-channel benchtop scope, but for an AD I think the risk is relatively low. 

Just a thought. 

jason

EDIT: I haven't used any of hte scopes mentioned in this thread, but I am surprised by the high price of the Instek GDS1054B in the EU.  In the US it often sells for less than the Rigol DS1054Z and the Siglent SDS1104X-U, which are closer competitors performance-wise.   On paper the Siglent SDS1104X-E seems like a much better scope than the instek: dual ADCs, potential upgrades for MSO and Bode capability, more sensitive front-end (500 uV/div, versus 1 mV/div that includes some digital zoom according to the GDS1054B thread on the forums), actual BNC for the trigger out (I am pretty sure the Instek uses the probe compensation as the trigger out...), etc.   Plus, if the OP already has the UniT siggen, there  is a possibility that they (or someone else on the forums) will eventually figure out how to make it work with the Siglent Bode plotting. 

Having said that, I thought seriously about purchasing a GDS1054B or GDS1202B for myself a number of months ago, but again I am in the US so price was a huge factor ($350 for 1054B vs $499 for SDS1104X-E; $310 for GDS1202B vs $380 for sds1202x-e).  Of course that is why I am familiar with some of the quirks of the Insteks that have been posted on the forums.

jason

[Fungus]

EDIT: I haven't used any of hte scopes mentioned in this thread, but I am surprised by the high price of the Instek GDS1054B in the EU.

Yep, it's a ridiculous difference.

The Insteks used to cost a lot more in the USA, too. They also had no serial decoders and weren't very hackable so they never gained much mindshare even though they're very fast and nice to use.

Now they've added the missing features and dropped the price a lot (less than a Rigol DS1054Z!). They deserve more recognition, but... 

[balnazzar]

Has the OP considered used equipment?  I don't know what the market and associated costs are when shopping from Europe, but in the US items like the Analog Discovery can be found with significant discounts.  An Analog Discovery 1 just sold on ebay a couple of days ago for $130.  Sure, it would cost an additional $40 for the BNC adapter and a couple of cheap probes, but it could still save $200 or more.   

I don't think I would go that route for my first 4-channel benchtop scope, but for an AD I think the risk is relatively low. 

Just a thought. 

jason

EDIT: I haven't used any of hte scopes mentioned in this thread, but I am surprised by the high price of the Instek GDS1054B in the EU.  In the US it often sells for less than the Rigol DS1054Z and the Siglent SDS1104X-U, which are closer competitors performance-wise.   On paper the Siglent SDS1104X-E seems like a much better scope than the instek: dual ADCs, potential upgrades for MSO and Bode capability, more sensitive front-end (500 uV/div, versus 1 mV/div that includes some digital zoom according to the GDS1054B thread on the forums), actual BNC for the trigger out (I am pretty sure the Instek uses the probe compensation as the trigger out...), etc.   Plus, if the OP already has the UniT siggen, there  is a possibility that they (or someone else on the forums) will eventually figure out how to make it work with the Siglent Bode plotting. 

Having said that, I thought seriously about purchasing a GDS1054B or GDS1202B for myself a number of months ago, but again I am in the US so price was a huge factor ($350 for 1054B vs $499 for SDS1104X-E; $310 for GDS1202B vs $380 for sds1202x-e).  Of course that is why I am familiar with some of the quirks of the Insteks that have been posted on the forums.

jason

Used equipment: considered. But if you read here and there, for example a known problem of the AD/AD2 is the fragilty of the micro-USB connector. If you aren't careful, it will get broken or partially broken very soon. A lot of people on forums lamented that having purchased an used one, they found the connector 'working' but basically broken and sloppily repaired.. And too few vendors on ebay offer the return option, not to mention the hassle.
As for the scopes, unless you want to wait months, it's very difficult to get a good, modern scope, held in good conditions for cheap prices on ebay. I bought both the Siglent and the AD2 on Amazon. If I won't like one or them (or both), super easy return with no shipping costs.

Prices in EU: There are two factors that impact badly. We have higher import duties for the distributors, and we have VAT for the end customer. That's why healthcare and education is free, here. It's not free, you just pay in advance.

[balnazzar]

Tell me one further thing, and indulge my ignorance. How much importance is to be given to the wavegen sampling rate?
I find it odd that cheap scopes can acquire signals up to 1 GSa/s while the generators get up to 150 on average.

Which are the usage cases where insufficient sampling rate by the gen is going to be a limiting factor?

I was reading the datasheets (yes  ) of the sdg1000x series: 150 MSa/s (note that my cheapo UNI-T gets to 200), whereas its slightly more expensive sibling, the sdg2000 gets to 1.2 GSa/s..

It's a huge differece, for just 150 eur more...

[nctnico]

That 1.2Gs/s is not for real. The actual samplerate for the SDG2k units is 300Ms/s

[jasonRF]

Has the OP considered used equipment?  I don't know what the market and associated costs are when shopping from Europe, but in the US items like the Analog Discovery can be found with significant discounts.  An Analog Discovery 1 just sold on ebay a couple of days ago for $130.  Sure, it would cost an additional $40 for the BNC adapter and a couple of cheap probes, but it could still save $200 or more.   

I don't think I would go that route for my first 4-channel benchtop scope, but for an AD I think the risk is relatively low. 

Just a thought. 

jason

EDIT: I haven't used any of hte scopes mentioned in this thread, but I am surprised by the high price of the Instek GDS1054B in the EU.  In the US it often sells for less than the Rigol DS1054Z and the Siglent SDS1104X-U, which are closer competitors performance-wise.   On paper the Siglent SDS1104X-E seems like a much better scope than the instek: dual ADCs, potential upgrades for MSO and Bode capability, more sensitive front-end (500 uV/div, versus 1 mV/div that includes some digital zoom according to the GDS1054B thread on the forums), actual BNC for the trigger out (I am pretty sure the Instek uses the probe compensation as the trigger out...), etc.   Plus, if the OP already has the UniT siggen, there  is a possibility that they (or someone else on the forums) will eventually figure out how to make it work with the Siglent Bode plotting. 

Having said that, I thought seriously about purchasing a GDS1054B or GDS1202B for myself a number of months ago, but again I am in the US so price was a huge factor ($350 for 1054B vs $499 for SDS1104X-E; $310 for GDS1202B vs $380 for sds1202x-e).  Of course that is why I am familiar with some of the quirks of the Insteks that have been posted on the forums.

jason

Used equipment: considered. But if you read here and there, for example a known problem of the AD/AD2 is the fragilty of the micro-USB connector. If you aren't careful, it will get broken or partially broken very soon. A lot of people on forums lamented that having purchased an used one, they found the connector 'working' but basically broken and sloppily repaired.. And too few vendors on ebay offer the return option, not to mention the hassle.
As for the scopes, unless you want to wait months, it's very difficult to get a good, modern scope, held in good conditions for cheap prices on ebay. I bought both the Siglent and the AD2 on Amazon. If I won't like one or them (or both), super easy return with no shipping costs.

Prices in EU: There are two factors that impact badly. We have higher import duties for the distributors, and we have VAT for the end customer. That's why healthcare and education is free, here. It's not free, you just pay in advance.

I obviously did not know about the AD fragility - glad you mentioned it.   I doubt I will ever recommend a used AD again!   I have so far had good luck with used test gear  (my basic dds function generator, super-basic power supply and fancy picoscope were all used ebay specials).     I of course completely agree about purchases from Amazon, as much as I hate to shove more money at the owner.   I buy from other vendors whenever possible for books and other supplies even if it costs a few extra dollars, but with their return policy it sometimes just makes the most sense to buy large-ticket items from  them.

Cheers,

Jason

[Fungus]

Used equipment: considered. But if you read here and there, for example a known problem of the AD/AD2 is the fragilty of the micro-USB connector. If you aren't careful, it will get broken or partially broken very soon.

Yep. It looks/feels quite fragile. I've always been very careful with mine.

Maybe some preemptive epoxy might be called for.

[tautech]

Has the OP considered used equipment?  I don't know what the market and associated costs are when shopping from Europe, but in the US items like the Analog Discovery can be found with significant discounts.  An Analog Discovery 1 just sold on ebay a couple of days ago for $130.  Sure, it would cost an additional $40 for the BNC adapter and a couple of cheap probes, but it could still save $200 or more.   

I don't think I would go that route for my first 4-channel benchtop scope, but for an AD I think the risk is relatively low. 

Just a thought. 

jason

EDIT: I haven't used any of hte scopes mentioned in this thread, but I am surprised by the high price of the Instek GDS1054B in the EU.  In the US it often sells for less than the Rigol DS1054Z and the Siglent SDS1104X-U, which are closer competitors performance-wise.   On paper the Siglent SDS1104X-E seems like a much better scope than the instek: dual ADCs, potential upgrades for MSO and Bode capability, more sensitive front-end (500 uV/div, versus 1 mV/div that includes some digital zoom according to the GDS1054B thread on the forums), actual BNC for the trigger out (I am pretty sure the Instek uses the probe compensation as the trigger out...), etc.   Plus, if the OP already has the UniT siggen, there  is a possibility that they (or someone else on the forums) will eventually figure out how to make it work with the Siglent Bode plotting. 

Having said that, I thought seriously about purchasing a GDS1054B or GDS1202B for myself a number of months ago, but again I am in the US so price was a huge factor ($350 for 1054B vs $499 for SDS1104X-E; $310 for GDS1202B vs $380 for sds1202x-e).  Of course that is why I am familiar with some of the quirks of the Insteks that have been posted on the forums.

jason

Highlighted a few of your points which I'll make comment on.
for my first 4-channel benchtop scope
Every buyer has a different need and budget and the wiser add addition functionality into their purchase for them to grow into.

Siglent SDS1104X-U
A very different beast to SDS1104X-E although they look very similar. X-U is more of a basic DSO without all the good bits the 4ch X-E has. In the context of this thread it falls well short on the feature set required.

potential upgrades for MSO and Bode capability
Bode plot capability is a standard feature in several Siglent DSO's and not an upgrade at all.

$380 for sds1202x-e
Again another model that doesn't measure up in the context of this thread as it also falls short on the feature set required however another series that can measure up is the 2GSa/s 2ch SDS2202X-E as these do have the webserver and Bode plot capability the OP requires but they are $ 620. But still the SDS1104X-E has a larger and better feature set.

[balnazzar]

That 1.2Gs/s is not for real. The actual samplerate for the SDG2k units is 300Ms/s

Two questions:
1. Why do they declare 1.2 GSa/s?
2. Is the actual sample rate of the 1000X even lower?

Thanks!

[balnazzar]

Siglent SDS1104X-U

$380 for sds1202x-e

Although I may seem super-lazy, I actually look at the datasheets (understanding them up to my modest competence, of course). I didn't even mention both of those scopes in my questions.. The first because for a modest 100 eur difference (street price) it lacks a lot of perks. Seems made just to offer a direct competitor for the 1054Z, dollar for dollar, feature for feature. The second because several times I already had need for at least 3 channels at the university lab.

[tautech]

Siglent SDS1104X-U

$380 for sds1202x-e

Although I may seem super-lazy, I actually look at the datasheets (understanding them up to my modest competence, of course). I didn't even mention both of those scopes in my questions.. The first because for a modest 100 eur difference (street price) it lacks a lot of perks. Seems made just to offer a direct competitor for the 1054Z, dollar for dollar, feature for feature. The second because several times I already had need for at least 3 channels at the university lab.

But it's not !
X-U is already a 100 MHz DSO and has zero optional features to hack.

[balnazzar]

But it's not !
X-U is already a 100 MHz DSO and has zero optional features to hack.

Didn't know about the zero optional hackable feature, but I took a hacked 1054Z for granted.

[nctnico]

That 1.2Gs/s is not for real. The actual samplerate for the SDG2k units is 300Ms/s

Two questions:
1. Why do they declare 1.2 GSa/s?

Due to some trick to smooth the output. But this doesn't work for all signals.

2. Is the actual sample rate of the 1000X even lower?

I don't think so. The real samplerate is typically mentioned for the maximum samplerate that can be used for arbitrary waveforms.

[alm]

Used equipment: considered. But if you read here and there, for example a known problem of the AD/AD2 is the fragilty of the micro-USB connector. If you aren't careful, it will get broken or partially broken very soon. A lot of people on forums lamented that having purchased an used one, they found the connector 'working' but basically broken and sloppily repaired.. And too few vendors on ebay offer the return option, not to mention the hassle.

Well, people generally won't post to complain their USB connector is working fine . FWIW, I bought both an AD2 and Digital Discovery used on eBay a while ago, and the USB connector is fine on both (n=2). You can often see from the state if a unit has barely been out of the package or has been used in class every day for months.

[Martin72]

That 1.2Gs/s is not for real. The actual samplerate for the SDG2k units is 300Ms/s

Two questions:
1. Why do they declare 1.2 GSa/s?
2. Is the actual sample rate of the 1000X even lower?

Thanks!

1. 1.2 GSa/s is 4-times interpolated, see datasheet
2. 150MSa/s

[rf-loop]

https://siglentna.com/application-note/interpolated-dds-technique-sdg2000x/?pdf=2817

[mawyatt]

Excellent description of interpolative DDS techniques shown above in the App Note. Believe this technique is employed in both the SDG2000 and SDG6000, which both produce excellent quality waveforms.

Best,

[Martin72]

Yeah, even me have understand it...

[balnazzar]

I got the AD2 yesterday. I'm fooling around with it, so far i like it

I think I just need a flat cable to connect the BNC adapter to the AD2, otherwise the connector won't last long (hoping that the cable won't add too much crosstalk..).

One thing I don't like is indeed the fragility of the stuff  . I don't know how they could use them in university labs and not having them broken the first day by the students.

I should get the get the little Siglent today, will keep you posted.

[balnazzar]

One thing that may be of interest.

The AD2 also has the 'no zoom out' issue, exactly as the Siglents and many other scopes.

[Fungus]

The AD2 also has the 'no zoom out' issue, exactly as the Siglents and many other scopes.

But the Siglent has no excuse, it has many megabytes of memory...

[Fungus]

I got the AD2 yesterday. I'm fooling around with it, so far i like it

I think I just need a flat cable to connect the BNC adapter to the AD2, otherwise the connector won't last long (hoping that the cable won't add too much crosstalk..).

I put some "feet" on the end of my BNC board:


There's a lot of pins so I don't think they'll break easily but it definitely flaps in the breeze without the feet.

[balnazzar]

The AD2 also has the 'no zoom out' issue, exactly as the Siglents and many other scopes.

But the Siglent has no excuse, it has many megabytes of memory...

True I don't know why they implemented it in such a way. It's clearly a software-side issue, they could address it with little or no effort.

Mine has some "feet" on the end of the BNC board.

There's a lot of pins so I don't think they'll break easily but it definitely flaps in the breeze without the feet.

Mine too (as well as the impedance analyzer). But there are lots of possible situations in which the connector can be stressed. Moving it around.. Inadvertedly pulling the probe upwards, etc.. I still think that one should attach a flat cable and leave it that way, always. Then you swap the accessories at the other end of the flat cable.

I'm finding ribbon cables of all sizes, except of course the 30-pin I need for the AD2.

[egonotto]

Hello,

longer cables are electrical but worse. Crosstalk and bandwidth reduction 

Best regards
egonotto

[Martin72]

One thing that may be of interest.

The AD2 also has the 'no zoom out' issue, exactly as the Siglents and many other scopes.

This is not an issue...

[JeremyC]

I got the AD2 yesterday. I'm fooling around with it, so far i like it

I think I just need a flat cable to connect the BNC adapter to the AD2, otherwise the connector won't last long (hoping that the cable won't add too much crosstalk..).

One thing I don't like is indeed the fragility of the stuff  . I don't know how they could use them in university labs and not having them broken the first day by the students.

I should get the get the little Siglent today, will keep you posted.

balnazzar, FYI Probably you will be not able to compensate the Siglent probes with the "Digilent BNC" because the AD2 has relatively high input capacitance (~25pF).
You will need probes with compensation range  17pf< and >30pF. I bought "Sumnacon 2 Pack P6100 100 MHz 600V" from Amazon for $12.99, they will compensate 10 - 35pF.

[JeremyC]

One thing that may be of interest.

The AD2 also has the 'no zoom out' issue, exactly as the Siglents and many other scopes.

Just capture few periods in the main scope window and use "Zoom" option.

[tautech]

I got the AD2 yesterday. I'm fooling around with it, so far i like it

I think I just need a flat cable to connect the BNC adapter to the AD2, otherwise the connector won't last long (hoping that the cable won't add too much crosstalk..).

One thing I don't like is indeed the fragility of the stuff  . I don't know how they could use them in university labs and not having them broken the first day by the students.

I should get the get the little Siglent today, will keep you posted.

balnazzar, FYI Probably you will be not able to compensate the Siglent probes with the "Digilent BNC" because the AD2 has relatively high input capacitance (~25pF).
You will need probes with compensation range  17pf< and >30pF. I bought "Sumnacon 2 Pack P6100 100 MHz 600V" from Amazon for $12.99, they will compensate 10 - 35pF.

Well the probe datasheet suggests otherwise:
https://siglentna.com//wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2022/08/Probe_DataSheet-E01B.pdf
Siglent PP510
Compensation Range 10pF-35pF

[tautech]

One thing that may be of interest.

The AD2 also has the 'no zoom out' issue, exactly as the Siglents and many other scopes.

This is not an issue...

Correct.
On the front panel is a button to access the Zoom feature, clearly visible unless you need vision aids.

[JeremyC]

I got the AD2 yesterday. I'm fooling around with it, so far i like it

I think I just need a flat cable to connect the BNC adapter to the AD2, otherwise the connector won't last long (hoping that the cable won't add too much crosstalk..).

One thing I don't like is indeed the fragility of the stuff  . I don't know how they could use them in university labs and not having them broken the first day by the students.

I should get the get the little Siglent today, will keep you posted.

balnazzar, FYI Probably you will be not able to compensate the Siglent probes with the "Digilent BNC" because the AD2 has relatively high input capacitance (~25pF).
You will need probes with compensation range  17pf< and >30pF. I bought "Sumnacon 2 Pack P6100 100 MHz 600V" from Amazon for $12.99, they will compensate 10 - 35pF.

Well the probe datasheet suggests otherwise:
https://siglentna.com//wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2022/08/Probe_DataSheet-E01B.pdf
Siglent PP510
Compensation Range 10pF-35pF

Thank you for the comment. Initially I wrote "will not", and since I never owned probes from Siglent I edited my post and added "probably".
My experience was based on PVP2350 from Rigol (BTW, I wouldn't recommend these probes), I tried also few another Chinese probes and I was never able to compensate.
I have 2 vintage probes and they are working great with the AD2.
 1. Probe Master PM2801A x1, X10
 2. STACK (made in Japan) CP-243 x100

 

[alm]

The trimmer caps used for probe compensation are not particularly low tolerance, so while the probe is not guaranteed to compensate outside the specified range, it's common for them to have a larger compensation range than specified.

[balnazzar]

One thing that may be of interest.

The AD2 also has the 'no zoom out' issue, exactly as the Siglents and many other scopes.

This is not an issue...

It's hardly a good thing.

[balnazzar]

I got the AD2 yesterday. I'm fooling around with it, so far i like it

I think I just need a flat cable to connect the BNC adapter to the AD2, otherwise the connector won't last long (hoping that the cable won't add too much crosstalk..).

One thing I don't like is indeed the fragility of the stuff  . I don't know how they could use them in university labs and not having them broken the first day by the students.

I should get the get the little Siglent today, will keep you posted.

balnazzar, FYI Probably you will be not able to compensate the Siglent probes with the "Digilent BNC" because the AD2 has relatively high input capacitance (~25pF).
You will need probes with compensation range  17pf< and >30pF. I bought "Sumnacon 2 Pack P6100 100 MHz 600V" from Amazon for $12.99, they will compensate 10 - 35pF.

Thanks man, you taught me something useful!
Here is what I'll buy: https://www.amazon.it/gp/product/B08B7P3C53/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_3?smid=A90CWHFC472FI&th=1

They are 10-35pF, too. Good price, 200 MHz, and with an useful BNC-minigrabber.

Only, now I'm not sure they'll get along with the (hacked) Siglent.

[balnazzar]

One thing that may be of interest.

The AD2 also has the 'no zoom out' issue, exactly as the Siglents and many other scopes.

Just capture few periods in the main scope window and use "Zoom" option.

Good trick Thanks!
(I assume you wanted to say 'more periods'..?)

[JeremyC]

One thing that may be of interest.

The AD2 also has the 'no zoom out' issue, exactly as the Siglents and many other scopes.

Just capture few periods in the main scope window and use "Zoom" option.

Good trick Thanks!
(I assume you wanted to say 'more periods'..?)

...yes, you're correct I meant "more periods". It happen often... I write, send and read after the fact  I'm sorry for my bad habits, I'm multitasking too much and   

[balnazzar]

Damn, only now I noticed that the AD2 had a 30% student discount, at least in the US...  :

Does someone know if that's valid for EU too?? I can't find anything about that upon their website... 

[JeremyC]

I got the AD2 yesterday. I'm fooling around with it, so far i like it

I think I just need a flat cable to connect the BNC adapter to the AD2, otherwise the connector won't last long (hoping that the cable won't add too much crosstalk..).

One thing I don't like is indeed the fragility of the stuff  . I don't know how they could use them in university labs and not having them broken the first day by the students.

I should get the get the little Siglent today, will keep you posted.

balnazzar, FYI Probably you will be not able to compensate the Siglent probes with the "Digilent BNC" because the AD2 has relatively high input capacitance (~25pF).
You will need probes with compensation range  17pf< and >30pF. I bought "Sumnacon 2 Pack P6100 100 MHz 600V" from Amazon for $12.99, they will compensate 10 - 35pF.

Thanks man, you taught me something useful!
Here is what I'll buy: https://www.amazon.it/gp/product/B08B7P3C53/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_3?smid=A90CWHFC472FI&th=1

They are 10-35pF, too. Good price, 200 MHz, and with an useful BNC-minigrabber.

Only, now I'm not sure they'll get along with the (hacked) Siglent.

balnazzar, I suggest don't order another probes before you try these from Siglent, they may be OK. See replies #183 and #185.

[JeremyC]

Damn, only now I noticed that the AD2 had a 30% student discount, at least in the US...  :

Does someone know if that's valid for EU too?? I can't find anything about that upon their website... 

You should contact Digilent, they may give the refund. In worst case you may return it to Amazon and repurchase from another vendor (assuming that the discount applies to EU countries).

[nctnico]

I got the AD2 yesterday. I'm fooling around with it, so far i like it

I think I just need a flat cable to connect the BNC adapter to the AD2, otherwise the connector won't last long (hoping that the cable won't add too much crosstalk..).

I put some "feet" on the end of my BNC board:
There's a lot of pins so I don't think they'll break easily but it definitely flaps in the breeze without the feet.

Perhaps there is someone selling aftermarket casings to hold both boards together. Or make something out of wood or metal that does the same.

[egonotto]

Hello,

....
 I am biased and I like them, but in the meantime they have become very expensive. Maybe you'll get them academically.

.....

Best regards
egonotto

Hello balnazzar,

Sorry I didn't make it clearer above.

trenz electronic sells Analog Discovery 2 - academically - but "order possible, delivery time on request" and "sale of academic articles only within Germany and Austria."

Best Regards
egonotto

[balnazzar]

One thing that may be of interest.

The AD2 also has the 'no zoom out' issue, exactly as the Siglents and many other scopes.

This is not an issue...

Correct.
On the front panel is a button to access the Zoom feature, clearly visible unless you need vision aids.

To be frank, this is still an issue, albeit mitigated (not solved) by the zoom function.

One thing is capturing whatever you want to capture with a number of periods of your choice, with the freedom of zooming out whenever you see fit to do it.
Another, different thing is that you have to remember to capture more periods than you need in that moment, and then use the zoom function to observe what you need to observe at that same moment...

To be even more frank, I'm starting to feel a bit worn off by the sarcasm.

Anyhow...
Isn't the SDS1104X-E supposed to come with a screen protector that you peel off before using the scope? Because mine came without the film, and the screen was pretty smeared.

Preliminary assessment of the scope:

- Faster than I thought. Its UI responsiveness is more or less on par with the SDS5000. The screen is small but with good contrast and brightness, waay better than Hantek's.

- A lot LOUDER than I expected. I mean it's so loud that I cannot reasonably concentrate upon my work.. I did actually read upon other threads that it was "a bit loud", but it resembles a damn vacuum cleaner...

See: https://youtu.be/A2SWDrhy9M8 (video made with an iPad pro which has a pretty good microphone array).

Either I'll return it (but there are no real alternatives) or I keep it, but I mandatorily have to put a Noctua in it. Will this kill the warranty?

[balnazzar]

trenz electronic sells Analog Discovery 2 - academically - but "order possible, delivery time on request" and "sale of academic articles only within Germany and Austria."

But this tells us that Digilent probably applies the edu discount worldwide.. Mh... I'll send them an e-mail. Thanks.

[egonotto]

Hello,

Digilent lists four Italian distributors.
DISTRELEC, ITALIA SRL. www.distrelec.it.
FARNELL ITALY it.farnell.com.
MIRIFICA S.R.L. www.mirifica.it
and
RS COMPONENTS S.P.A. - TUTTI I DIRITTI SONO it.rs-online.com/web/.
Maybe it helps to ask there.

Best Regards
egonotto

[balnazzar]

Hello,

Digilent lists four Italian distributors.
DISTRELEC, ITALIA SRL. www.distrelec.it.
FARNELL ITALY it.farnell.com.
MIRIFICA S.R.L. www.mirifica.it
and
RS COMPONENTS S.P.A. - TUTTI I DIRITTI SONO it.rs-online.com/web/.
Maybe it helps to ask there.

Best Regards
egonotto

As soon as I learned about the edu discount, I checked their (local distributors) listings. They don't mention discounted version. But it won't hurt to send them a few emails. Thanks!

[balnazzar]

I never owned the SDS1104X-E, but I got chance to play with it - from my point of view it's the best what you can get in $500 range,
without mentoring easy upgrade to 1204X-E.
I'm guessing you did receive an defective, or returned unit (missing screen protection?) ...
You should contact the vendor (Amazon?) and request replacement.

Yep, one reason I bought on Amazon are the super easy returns.. Although I still have to clarify if Siglent ships its scopes with a protective film or if such an acoustic noise is kind of normal... Mine could actually be a defective unit that someone else actually returned for the same reasons..

[Fungus]

But this tells us that Digilent probably applies the edu discount worldwide.. Mh... I'll send them an e-mail. Thanks.

I got mine with edu discount in Spain.

You have to contact the the country's official dealer and convince them you're eligible.

[Fungus]

Perhaps there is someone selling aftermarket casings to hold both boards together. Or make something out of wood or metal that does the same.

I have a laser cutter so I thought of mounting mine on a wooden base. The AD2 doesn't have any screw holes though so it would have to be zip tied down or something.

A 3D printed holder would probably be best but I never got around to it.

[tautech]

I never owned the SDS1104X-E, but I got chance to play with it - from my point of view it's the best what you can get in $500 range,
without mentoring easy upgrade to 1204X-E.
I'm guessing you did receive an defective, or returned unit (missing screen protection?) ...
You should contact the vendor (Amazon?) and request replacement.

Yep, one reason I bought on Amazon are the super easy returns.. Although I still have to clarify if Siglent ships its scopes with a protective film or if such an acoustic noise is kind of normal... Mine could actually be a defective unit that someone else actually returned for the same reasons..

More important than quality local support ?
Yeah right. 

Only Siglent touch screen devices now come with screen protectors.

[Fungus]

Only Siglent touch screen devices now come with screen protectors.

... and the loud noise?

[tautech]

Only Siglent touch screen devices now come with screen protectors.

... and the loud noise?

Is only relevant to the users susceptibility to instrument fan noise.

[Fungus]

Only Siglent touch screen devices now come with screen protectors.

... and the loud noise?

Is only relevant to the users susceptibility to instrument fan noise.

But does it sound normal to you?

[2N3055]

Only Siglent touch screen devices now come with screen protectors.

... and the loud noise?

Is only relevant to the users susceptibility to instrument fan noise.

But does it sound normal to you?

What do you think?  How would we know without  any reference or any real acoustic level measurement.  These phones have ALC microphones, that will pickup whisper 10 m away..

[balnazzar]

You have to contact the the country's official dealer and convince them you're eligible.

Uh, I'll try...

[balnazzar]

Only Siglent touch screen devices now come with screen protectors.

... and the loud noise?

Is only relevant to the users susceptibility to instrument fan noise.

But does it sound normal to you?

What do you think?  How would we know without  any reference or any real acoustic level measurement.  These phones have ALC microphones, that will pickup whisper 10 m away..

True. It's hard to judge the sound pressure on a video, but I don't have, well.. A sound pressure meter. Nonetheless, you have an idea of the pitch.
I may be sensitive to acoustical noise, but it's more or less on par with the wireless portable vacuum cleaner I use to clean my car.
More specifically, it's louder than the Nvidia A6000 GPU inside my PC, which is a 300W design in a much smaller package, while the scope is a 50W device with much more room to vent.
Such levels of acoustical noise are not justifiable, in my opinion. The scope is louder than the SDS5000, no matter the fact that being a 500 MHz scope, I imagine the latter having a more power-hungry hardware.

The 1104X-E has a *small* fan (hence the pitch), probably not of 1st rate quality, and it's not PWM-driven. It goes all the time to maximum rpms.

And, if Siglent doesn't ship with screen protectors, that's bad practice too. Not acceptable to get a scope with its screen smeared before 1st use. Even the nafarious Hantek had a protective film.

[balnazzar]

I never owned the SDS1104X-E, but I got chance to play with it - from my point of view it's the best what you can get in $500 range,
without mentoring easy upgrade to 1204X-E.
I'm guessing you did receive an defective, or returned unit (missing screen protection?) ...
You should contact the vendor (Amazon?) and request replacement.

Yep, one reason I bought on Amazon are the super easy returns.. Although I still have to clarify if Siglent ships its scopes with a protective film or if such an acoustic noise is kind of normal... Mine could actually be a defective unit that someone else actually returned for the same reasons..

More important than quality local support ?
Yeah right. 

The thing is that I cannot know the quality of the local support. It could be the worst support one can imagine. That's one reason.
The other is that buying from the distributor I would have had to ship the product back under my responsibility (if the courier breaks it, you have to initiate a lawsuit against it, or a long bureaucratic procedure even if it's insured). With Amazon, once you give the product back to the courier, you have no resposibility. That's the second reason.
Third, you have to pay the expenses for shipping it back. Possibly insured for >500eur, it's expensive. With Amazon, no expenses at all.
Fourth, if that 'quality local distributor' is nasty, it can appeal to a thousand reasons for delaying the refund. Or not refunding at all on grounds that you did not package the product well. You are back to a lawsuit against them. Amazon refunds you even if you put a brick into the box (ok, hyperbole, but you get it).

So, yes. It's more important that an allegedly 'quality' local support.

[baldurn]

I do not remember the noise to be that bad. But that may also be because I have used the instrument in an environment where there will be other sounds at all times.

I do think many instruments are louder than they need to be. It is apparently not something manufactures want to spent the last cent on improving. So I suggest you would be best served by expecting that a fan change would be needed in many cases.

As to the warranty, I think EU laws specify they would need to honor that unless they can show that your modification is the reason for the failure. For example they could claim your new fan provided insufficient cooling. But only if the failure was something that could be caused by insufficient cooling. I would not worry too much in this case because it is a relatively inexpensive device.

[balnazzar]

I do think many instruments are louder than they need to be. It is apparently not something manufactures want to spent the last cent on improving. So I suggest you would be best served by expecting that a fan change would be needed in many cases.

It depends upon the manufacturer: https://youtu.be/b-TuDm92cn4?t=203

And about the MSO5000: https://youtu.be/P5faiEUXbGg?t=1412

Bottom line: chinese scopes tend to be noisy (and in the case of the MSO5K, not only acoustically...). That's what I don't like about chinese products in general. They tend to deliver stuff that works, but they are always kind of half-finished. How much more would cost to be a bit more attentive to the acoustical noise? Almost nothing. A better fan, PWM control, maybe make the scope 1 cm thicker and put a 120mm fan on the back, exhausting from the side vents..

As to the warranty, I think EU laws specify they would need to honor that unless they can show that your modification is the reason for the failure. For example they could claim your new fan provided insufficient cooling. But only if the failure was something that could be caused by insufficient cooling. I would not worry too much in this case because it is a relatively inexpensive device.

Mh, as a matter of fact, it's such a fuzzy point that they could claim one has damaged it by just opening the case, and then say "sue us, pal". Anyway, it's true that even considering my shallow pockets, losing 500e won't change my life. It's that one buys a scope and has to start doing modifications in the inside from the first day that annoys me.

[balnazzar]

Perhaps there is someone selling aftermarket casings to hold both boards together. Or make something out of wood or metal that does the same.

I have a laser cutter so I thought of mounting mine on a wooden base. The AD2 doesn't have any screw holes though so it would have to be zip tied down or something.

A 3D printed holder would probably be best but I never got around to it.

Mh, I was reflecting upon that.
It should be something that has very tight tolerances, length and width wise. Then, you have a top and a bottom part of the "case", and they screw upon each other. If the upper one can extert a slight amount of pressure upon both the AD2 and the BNC adapter, it will be OK. Again, it's a matter of tolerances.

A plastic case would be ideal. As you have mentioned, one should use a 3D printer.
There are numerous 3D printing services on the Internet, but the problem is that's difficult to draw a sufficiently accurate schematics for them to work with...

[baldurn]

Mh, as a matter of fact, it's such a fuzzy point that they could claim one has damaged it by just opening the case, and then say "sue us, pal". Anyway, it's true that even considering my shallow pockets, losing 500e won't change my life. It's that one buys a scope and has to start doing modifications in the inside from the first day that annoys me.

The "sue us" is what makes them give in. Because these days there are small claims courts where you can bring the case with very little cost to you. They on the other hand would need to hire an attorney to go to your country and even if they win, you will not be paying that. So they lose no matter what. It is usually not worth it for cheap devices unless they want to make a point.

The real danger of bad customer support is when they take in the device and then keep it for months before returning it still broken.

Does anyone have experience with Siglent.eu in this regard? I have bought a few things from them but never had to return anything.

[tautech]

Does anyone have experience with Siglent.eu in this regard? I have bought a few things from them but never had to return anything.

FYI, that is NOT the Siglent EU regional office:
European Sales Offices
SIGLENT Technologies Germany GmbH
Add: Staetzlinger Str.  70
86165 Augsburg, Germany
Tel: +49(0)-821-666 0 111 0
Fax: +49(0)-821-666 0 111 22
info-eu@siglent.com
www.siglenteu.com

[tautech]

Such levels of acoustical noise are not justifiable, in my opinion. The scope is louder than the SDS5000, no matter the fact that being a 500 MHz scope, I imagine the latter having a more power-hungry hardware.

You need give this more thought.
Smaller device = more compact design, harder to cool with insufficient real-estate available for a larger, slower running quieter fan.

The 1104X-E has a *small* fan (hence the pitch), probably not of 1st rate quality, and it's not PWM-driven. It goes all the time to maximum rpms.

The fan is quite good quality actually as Noctua replacements have been tried however pushing the same air and pressure they are no quieter. There is a thread you can find where noise reduction options are discussed.

And, if Siglent doesn't ship with screen protectors, that's bad practice too. Not acceptable to get a scope with its screen smeared before 1st use. Even the nafarious Hantek had a protective film.

You think.
Good luck damaging the matt toughened glass lens on a Siglent scope and in some effort to reduce plastic waste the screen protection overlay was dispensed with for most models a couple years back.
All instruments come in a perforated plastic bag with a desiccant pouch so apart from anyone but the end customer getting fingerprints or grub on the display it's obviously been mishandled. Does it still have the warranty seal intact ?
Now many boots are recorded in Sys Info ?
Is firmware the latest ?

[2N3055]

Bottom line: chinese scopes tend to be noisy (and in the case of the MSO5K, not only acoustically...). That's what I don't like about chinese products in general. They tend to deliver stuff that works, but they are always kind of half-finished. How much more would cost to be a bit more attentive to the acoustical noise? Almost nothing. A better fan, PWM control, maybe make the scope 1 cm thicker and put a 120mm fan on the back, exhausting from the side vents..

It has nothing to do with "Chinese" or "French". It is about inexpensive devices.

No matter that it is still significant investment to you and many billions of people, these are very inexpensive devices for what they are and when scopes are concerned.
They are also incredibly powerful compared  to just 10-15 years ago to devices costing 10x that much.

To achieve that, they have to be cost optimized
And you seem to not really understand "how much it cost" to do anything when designing and manufacturing a product..
To people with no practical experience doing that job it all seems easy. It's not, and it is most complicated at low end.
I've seen people buying inexpensive scopes for 350 € (because it was as much as they can afford)  and then putting in a 65€ fans, complaining that such fan should have been inside in a first place..... Because how much would it cost in a first place... Well, 65€, that much...  But they wouldn't buy that scope at 415€ because it would be too expensive...

New SDS2000X HD is probably acoustically quietest device I ever used. It has best quality materials it makes R&S scopes look like plastic toys. It feels solid, and premium quality when used.
When released, first comment on EEVBLOG was that it was expensive... But it is not, it priced according to it quality and performance class...

This topic of acoustic noise comes up every now and then. Some people have very quiet environments and have acoustic sensitivities. That happens. Most of the people don't care, or have background noise that makes it non issue.
But be sure that no scope with a fan will be completely quiet (except mentioned SDS2000X HD and some R&S scopes from lower end). Worst are more expensive, more powerful models that have lots of heat to dissipate...

[balnazzar]

You need give this more thought.
Smaller device = more compact design, harder to cool with insufficient real-estate available for a larger, slower running quieter fan.

I actually thought about it. I may be the worst rookie about electronics and test equipment, but I have some experience in building silent air-cooled computers.
That's why I said they could have put a 120mm fan on the back of it by just making the scope a tad thicker. I also said that the A6000 gpu, no matter being a 300W monster in a much smaller package (w.r.t. this scope) manages to be more silent.
Finally, the absence of some control mechanism (pwm?) with fan rpms as function of the scope temperature is hardly justifiable.

The fan is quite good quality actually as Noctua replacements have been tried however pushing the same air and pressure they are no quieter. There is a thread you can find where noise reduction options are discussed.

That's very bad news. If I wasn't sufficiently scared into returning it, now I am.
If I cannot silence it, I cannot keep it, even if it was the best scope in the world as for the instrument itself. It just drives me crazy.
Maybe I can go on for a while with the AD2, save money, and then buy the goddamn RTB2000 within a year or so...

All instruments come in a perforated plastic bag with a desiccant pouch so apart from anyone but the end customer getting fingerprints or grub on the display it's obviously been mishandled. Does it still have the warranty seal intact ?
Now many boots are recorded in Sys Info ?
Is firmware the latest ?

The bag was just closed with adhesive tape. But the scope shows just 3 boots (mine).. Can that counter be zeroed by a competent technician?

Software version: 6.1.37R8
OS version: 8.3
Hardware version: 01-05

Thanks.

[balnazzar]

And you seem to not really understand "how much it cost" to do anything when designing and manufacturing a product..
To people with no practical experience doing that job it all seems easy. It's not, and it is most complicated at low end.
I've seen people buying inexpensive scopes for 350 € (because it was as much as they can afford)  and then putting in a 65€ fans, complaining that such fan should have been inside in a first place..... Because how much would it cost in a first place... Well, 65€, that much...  But they wouldn't buy that scope at 415€ because it would be too expensive...

This topic of acoustic noise comes up every now and then. Some people have very quiet environments and have acoustic sensitivities. That happens. Most of the people don't care, or have background noise that makes it non issue.
But be sure that no scope with a fan will be completely quiet (except mentioned SDS2000X HD and some R&S scopes from lower end). Worst are more expensive, more powerful models that have lots of heat to dissipate...

As I said above, I try and build my computers with silence in mind, and that's not only because I don't like noise, but also because I do audio stuff with them.
Before that, I tried numerous desktop PCs and even some professional workstations. They were all considerably loud.
With *less* money than it's required to buy a 2nd rate brand desktop PC, I managed to build a totally silent (idle) or quiet (under stress) workstation. It was sufficient to buy the right fans (which cost not much more than crappy ones, and certainly not 65 eur apiece), being careful about the airflow, selecting the correct power supply, etc... I neither made strange, exotic things, nor I had to resort to liquid cooling.
In the hindsight, all these pre-built workstations would have required very modest investments in order to be quiet. It's not that they leave them loud because otherwise they wouldn't be competitively priced. It's just that either they don't care, or they hire incompetent engineers. Probably both.

The SDS2000X Plus is much more noisier than the comparably-sized RTB2000 (that can be barely heard according to the reviewer) and even noisier than the little keysight (which has less room for airflow and fan size, as tautech noted..), indicates just bad engineering. If they managed to spare some 50 bucks by leaving it so loud, that was a bad call, period. That scope starts at 1400 eur vat included, and people who buy it wouldn't have been discouraged by a 50 bucks difference if they released a quieter revision. The same stands for the Rigol MSO5000.

New SDS2000X HD is probably acoustically quietest device I ever used. It has best quality materials it makes R&S scopes look like plastic toys. It feels solid, and premium quality when used.
When released, first comment on EEVBLOG was that it was expensive... But it is not, it priced according to it quality and performance class...

You seem intentioned to defend the brand with your life, more than tautech who sells it..
As I said (and you folks duly observed) I know nothing about test equipment, so I'll leave to others that thing about the R&S stuff being plastic toys.
Let me just say that I didn't ask for a device that belittles top-brand scopes into plastic toys. I would have been content with exactly the same scope as the actual 1104x-e, but with a reasonable acoustical performance.
That they can make silent stuff when they want, well, that just makes things worse for the brand.

This topic of acoustic noise comes up every now and then. Some people have very quiet environments and have acoustic sensitivities. That happens. Most of the people don't care, or have background noise that makes it non issue.
But be sure that no scope with a fan will be completely quiet (except mentioned SDS2000X HD and some R&S scopes from lower end). Worst are more expensive, more powerful models that have lots of heat to dissipate...

It's not that I have such incredible sensitivity to noise. It's that this scopes outputs a sound pressure that's comparable to a portable vacuum cleaner. If you want, tomorrow I'll take the car VC at home and make a video with the same iPad at the same distances.
It's just not acceptable.
Now that you made me think about cars, let me tell you something.
One crucial aspect about cars, especially for those who do considerable mileages is how comfortable the driver's seat is.
Now, among utility cars (say up to 30K eur) very few do have seat inclination adjustments, or lumbar support adjustments (seat inclination refers to the part of the seat upon which you place your arse).
How much, in percentage terms, are these adjustments going to impact over 30K? Nothing, or almost.
Still, they don't put them into utility cars.

Manufacturer stupidity.

A friend of mine works as traveling salesman. It has back pain and suffers from his high yearly mileage. My car has an AGR certified driver's seat and you can adjust whatever you want with it (I paid just 450 more bucks for it when I bought the car), and he observed that it's much more comfortable to drive. I asked why didn't he buy such an option. He replied he didn't even think about such trifles.

Customer stupidity.

People "don't care", and manufacturers (particularly the bad ones), consequently care even less.
Then the same people try a quality product, maybe just slightly more expensive, and then say "oohh, it's another world!".

[Fungus]

I asked why didn't he buy such an option. He replied he didn't even think about such trifles.

Probably why oscilloscopes are noisy - 99% of customers never even question it or just accept it as "necessary".

I swapped the fan in my old Rigol. A $7 fan made a huge difference.

The airflow was probably a tiny bit less but the 'scope's rated to 50 degrees ambient temperature so I wasn't worried. My only regret was not doing it much sooner.

If your Siglent survives the first few weeks without dying then go for it.

[2N3055]

And you seem to not really understand "how much it cost" to do anything when designing and manufacturing a product..
To people with no practical experience doing that job it all seems easy. It's not, and it is most complicated at low end.
I've seen people buying inexpensive scopes for 350 € (because it was as much as they can afford)  and then putting in a 65€ fans, complaining that such fan should have been inside in a first place..... Because how much would it cost in a first place... Well, 65€, that much...  But they wouldn't buy that scope at 415€ because it would be too expensive...

This topic of acoustic noise comes up every now and then. Some people have very quiet environments and have acoustic sensitivities. That happens. Most of the people don't care, or have background noise that makes it non issue.
But be sure that no scope with a fan will be completely quiet (except mentioned SDS2000X HD and some R&S scopes from lower end). Worst are more expensive, more powerful models that have lots of heat to dissipate...

As I said above, I try and build my computers with silence in mind, and that's not only because I don't like noise, but also because I do audio stuff with them.
Before that, I tried numerous desktop PCs and even some professional workstations. They were all considerably loud.
With *less* money than it's required to buy a 2nd rate brand desktop PC, I managed to build a totally silent (idle) or quiet (under stress) workstation. It was sufficient to buy the right fans (which cost not much more than crappy ones, and certainly not 65 eur apiece), being careful about the airflow, selecting the correct power supply, etc... I neither made strange, exotic things, nor I had to resort to liquid cooling.
In the hindsight, all these pre-built workstations would have required very modest investments in order to be quiet. It's not that they leave them loud because otherwise they wouldn't be competitively priced. It's just that either they don't care, or they hire incompetent engineers. Probably both.

The SDS2000X Plus is much more noisier than the comparably-sized RTB2000 (that can be barely heard according to the reviewer) and even noisier than the little keysight (which has less room for airflow and fan size, as tautech noted..), indicates just bad engineering. If they managed to spare some 50 bucks by leaving it so loud, that was a bad call, period. That scope starts at 1400 eur vat included, and people who buy it wouldn't have been discouraged by a 50 bucks difference if they released a quieter revision. The same stands for the Rigol MSO5000.

New SDS2000X HD is probably acoustically quietest device I ever used. It has best quality materials it makes R&S scopes look like plastic toys. It feels solid, and premium quality when used.
When released, first comment on EEVBLOG was that it was expensive... But it is not, it priced according to it quality and performance class...

You seem intentioned to defend the brand with your life, more than tautech who sells it..
As I said (and you folks duly observed) I know nothing about test equipment, so I'll leave to others that thing about the R&S stuff being plastic toys.
Let me just say that I didn't ask for a device that belittles top-brand scopes into plastic toys. I would have been content with exactly the same scope as the actual 1104x-e, but with a reasonable acoustical performance.
That they can make silent stuff when they want, well, that just makes things worse for the brand.

This topic of acoustic noise comes up every now and then. Some people have very quiet environments and have acoustic sensitivities. That happens. Most of the people don't care, or have background noise that makes it non issue.
But be sure that no scope with a fan will be completely quiet (except mentioned SDS2000X HD and some R&S scopes from lower end). Worst are more expensive, more powerful models that have lots of heat to dissipate...

It's not that I have such incredible sensitivity to noise. It's that this scopes outputs a sound pressure that's comparable to a portable vacuum cleaner. If you want, tomorrow I'll take the car VC at home and make a video with the same iPad at the same distances.
It's just not acceptable.
Now that you made me think about cars, let me tell you something.
One crucial aspect about cars, especially for those who do considerable mileages is how comfortable the driver's seat is.
Now, among utility cars (say up to 30K eur) very few do have seat inclination adjustments, or lumbar support adjustments (seat inclination refers to the part of the seat upon which you place your arse).
How much, in percentage terms, are these adjustments going to impact over 30K? Nothing, or almost.
Still, they don't put them into utility cars.

Manufacturer stupidity.

A friend of mine works as traveling salesman. It has back pain and suffers from his high yearly mileage. My car has an AGR certified driver's seat and you can adjust whatever you want with it (I paid just 450 more bucks for it when I bought the car), and he observed that it's much more comfortable to drive. I asked why didn't he buy such an option. He replied he didn't even think about such trifles.

Customer stupidity.

People "don't care", and manufacturers (particularly the bad ones), consequently care even less.
Then the same people try a quality product, maybe just slightly more expensive, and then say "oohh, it's another world!".

At moments you sound like a spoiled child...
And drama queen.. "defending brand with my life..." LOL..
Pardon my being direct.

Listen. It is simple. You obviously didn't ever try RTB2000, SDS2000X HD or any of other scopes you mention. I did. In fact, have some of them.
SDS2000X HD is really quietest scope with fan I ever heard. Even little quieter than RTB2000 that is really quiet and excellent in that regard.
And SDS2000X HD makes RTB2000 look cheap.. It is so high quality in look and feel. That is just a fact, but you wouldn't know but your prejudices allow you to say I'm lying and am a fanboy...

My post about inexpensive scope applies equally to Rigol DS1104Z and MSO5000 or Siglent SDS1104X-E, or even SDS2000X+. These are very cost optimized products in scope world. 

And you do have sound sensitivity... You work with audio, you say, that explains it. You might have very quiet environment and hypersensitivity to sound pollution. Which is fine by me.
But.. Did you just call me or any other customer of these scopes stupid because we are not bothered by little noise? I also tell you from experience that most people have more than one device with fan in it and not so quiet environment and they don't even notice these sounds anymore..

And your point about manufacturer stupidity and customer stupidity is just your hubris that you know better than anybody and that everything is simple. And you are wrong.
RTB2000 is not "just a slightly more expensive" than SDS1104X-E.
Most customers are price conscious and manufacturers mass produce products for majority. . Simple as that.
So no fancy seats are being installed because most of the people don't need them.
And no scope manufacturers are optimizing all they products for work in acoustically quiet environments because it is minority of users for price hike for everybody.. I personally like they didn't made me pay for you to have quiet fan, to put it bluntly...

[balnazzar]

I swapped the fan in my old Rigol. A $7 fan made a huge difference.

As I suspected.. This confirms my conjecture about the manufacturer not bothering about quality just to scrape a few dollars more.

[jasonRF]

Bottom line: chinese scopes tend to be noisy (and in the case of the MSO5K, not only acoustically...). That's what I don't like about chinese products in general. They tend to deliver stuff that works, but they are always kind of half-finished. How much more would cost to be a bit more attentive to the acoustical noise? Almost nothing. A better fan, PWM control, maybe make the scope 1 cm thicker and put a 120mm fan on the back, exhausting from the side vents..

At work my office door opens into an electronics lab packed with high-end gear made by non-Chinese companies (Tek, Agilent, R&S, Anritsu, Keysight, etc.) and it is loud enough that I need to keep my door shut in order to hear myself think.  While I know I am extra sensitive to the noise, it leads me to suspect that the nationality of the company may not have a lot to do with this.

It is not easy to find silent (or nearly-silent) test equipment.  When I was shopping for a scope this year I found that there were few options that were 'guaranteed' to be quiet-enough for me - at least without hearing them in-person.  Compared to the great bang-per-buck units like the sds1104x-e, I found the options were either much more expensive (the R&S already discussed), or had fewer features (eg the fanless Owon sds1000-series which also have inferior performance), or both (eg the fanless Tek 1000C series).   

The main fanless options I found that had deep memory and lots of features were the nicer Picoscopes, but they are not cheap and most people strongly prefer benchtop equipment.   The most 'affordable' deep-memory 4-channel option is the 2406B at $700 US (50 MHz, 1 GS/s, 32 MSample memory, 1 MHz AWG w/ Bode plots) but has been out of stock and backordered everywhere for months as far as I can tell; the least-expensive 4-channel deep-memory models actually in-stock in stores cost about $1000 US (2407B, 3403D).   
Edit: forgot to add that these 2000B/3000D series only have 4mV/div sensitivity, which is not so good. 

jason

[baldurn]

When I turn on all my instruments it is significant louder than any computer I ever owned but not like a vacuum cleaner or a server. One instrument seems to be more loud than the rest combined, but it is not my scope :-). It is my Siglent SDM3055 multimeter. My Siglent SDG6022X AWG has the exact same form factor but is completely silent. One would think the AWG had a larger need for cooling than a multimeter, given that most multimeters do not even have a fan. There simply is no rythm to this.

But unlike my computer, I very rarely run all my instruments for hours on end. I can tolerate significant more noise from instruments than a computer. I got myself an Macbook Air because it has no fans and therefore is completely silent. I just don't think you should try to set the same standard for your instruments as the computer for multiple reasons.

First is that there simply are no options in our price range. Anyone can order a silent computer or build one. Not so with instruments. You can perhaps improve something by modifying fans but you will still not get into "completely or almost silent" range. There are no silent chain saws either ;-)

The second is that the way one uses instruments usually is different from the way you use your computer. I realize that there are probably professionals that use this stuff all day long like I do when at work with my computer. But for most at the hobby level you will not be taking measurements 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.

Third, you may have to choose between loudness and features if you are on a budget. Maybe you get lucky and get both, but if not, do you really have the luxury of missing out on needed features and get a worse instrument but with a better fan?

[balnazzar]

At moments you sound like a spoiled child...
Pardon my being direct.

No problem. In turn, I hope you'll be so kind to pardon me for the same reason.
You sound like a person who has to patronize other people in order to feel happy. Not a big deal, it doesn't automatically makes you a bad person, but you should work upon it.

Listen. It is simple. You obviously didn't ever try RTB2000, SDS2000X HD or any of other scopes you mention.

Please don't put things I didn't say into my mouth. Indeed, I did NOT mention the SDS2000X HD. I just linked a review who had the 2000X+ (and not the HD) in it.
That I didn't (even ) try them went without saying, otherwise, having had 1st person experience, it would have been useless to listen to that review.

And SDS2000X HD makes RTB2000 look cheap.. It is so high quality in look and feel. That is just a fact, but you wouldn't know but your prejudices allow you to say I'm lying and am a fanboy...

That's the second time you are putting your own words into my mouth. More specifically, I did not say you were lying. On the very contrary, I stated that such utterances were not for me to contradict.

What I do know from my direct experience is that this scope is too noisy to be used. 
Also, I specified in bold text that the scope in itself was better that I expected (at least up to the functionalities I used) and particularly the responsiveness exceeded my expectations.
But once more you seem to ignore the praise, while at the same time you take any criticism personally.

I also tell you from experience that most people have more than one device with fan in it and not so quiet environment and they don't even notice these sounds anymore.

So all these people on that thread that are trying to swap the fan inside their 1104x-e are all maniacs of absolute silence. Not to mention those who are actually bothered by the noise, but don't want the hassle and the risks of tinkering with the internals..

I also have a great deal of devices with fans in my study. The are just not so noisy. Not even close.

And your point about manufacturer stupidity and customer stupidity is just your hubris that you know better than anybody and that everything is simple. And you are wrong.

No, it's my opinion. Your is that it's just hubris and I'm wrong. That's fine. People are entitled to have their own different opinions. Just try not to take everything personally.

Most customers are price conscious and manufacturers mass produce products for majority. . Simple as that.
So no fancy seats are being installed because most of the people don't need them.

You didn't get the point.
The point in telling that story was to atriculate the fact that people often need a thing, but still don't care about it. That's sloppy by any possible evaluation criterion.
Another point was highlighting that manufacturers often avoid to make a product considerably better just to save a few bucks.
Proof: two posts above you'll find a person who installed a 7$ fan inside his scope while regretting not having done it sooner.
You didn't get that also.

If you read here and there on forums, A LOT of people tries to swap the fans inside their scopes. Not 65$ fans, just ~10$ fans. 10$ for the end user. For a manufacturer that orders tons of them is one third of that price.

End note: No bad feelings, but if you try again to steer this discussion towards personal, I'll abstain from replying.

[tautech]

I swapped the fan in my old Rigol. A $7 fan made a huge difference.

As I suspected.. This confirms my conjecture about the manufacturer not bothering about quality just to scrape a few dollars more.

Fungus speaks through his arse as he knows jack shit about Siglent !

Maybe you ignore my previous report about the same spec Noctua fan is no quieter than what Siglent use = fact #1

2ch SDS1202X-E and SDS11/1204X-E are the same form factor yet run quite different fans, SDS1202X-E being much quieter as it hasn't got the horsepower to cool that SDS11/1204X-E has = fact #2

Half the HW in SDS1202X-E of the 4ch version and less features requires much less cooling = fact#3

Same form factor and very similar case design yet inside they are very different, the 2ch mainboard is horizontal whereas the 4ch model mainboard is vertical. Both use a metal chassis so channel BNC's can be securely fixed to minimize the microphonics that plague cheaper designs = fact #4

Of course you could best match a replacement fan to your ambient temperatures but a manufacturer can't, they must design for all conditions in a worldwide marketplace so the fan can be thought unnecessarily noisy in a cooler climate = fact #5


Stop being a twat and accept that horsepower needs cooling just as it does in a PC where the cheapest methods are certainly not the quietest. You could of course water cool a scope but then it would not be portable.


Then if I had my choice based on $ spend for fan noise and features SDS2104X Plus would be first choice, then SDS5kX or 6kA if budget was no issue or maybe SDS2104X HD but not yet had one on my bench however the 350 MHz version will be here soon for a customer but he has needed to wait for it so only a FW install and our normal probe compensate/checks before it must go to them. 

[balnazzar]

It is not easy to find silent (or nearly-silent) test equipment.  When I was shopping for a scope this year I found that there were few options that were 'guaranteed' to be quiet-enough for me - at least without hearing them in-person.  Compared to the great bang-per-buck units like the sds1104x-e, I found the options were either much more expensive (the R&S already discussed), or had fewer features (eg the fanless Owon sds1000-series which also have inferior performance), or both (eg the fanless Tek 1000C series).   

The main fanless options I found that had deep memory and lots of features were the nicer Picoscopes, but they are not cheap and most people strongly prefer benchtop equipment.   The most 'affordable' deep-memory 4-channel option is the 2406B at $700 US (50 MHz, 1 GS/s, 32 MSample memory, 1 MHz AWG w/ Bode plots) but has been out of stock and backordered everywhere for months as far as I can tell; the least-expensive 4-channel deep-memory models actually in-stock in stores cost about $1000 US (2407B, 3403D).   

I was starting to write a reply about the Picos. Take a Pico with good specs. Say 100 MHz, 4chs, 1 GS/s, 128 Mpts.
It sells for ~1100 eur.
It's more than a chinese scope with the same specs, but less, say, than a DSOX1204G.

But the point upon which I'd invite you to reflect upon is that it's a fanless brick completely enclosed by unvented plastic, which is a terrific thermal insulator.
It lacks knobs and a screen but has all the stuff that outputs heat: a beefy processor, the ADC, the memory, etc..

So with a little care it's possible to produce good stuff with a an even better thermal envelope.

[balnazzar]

There are no silent chain saws either ;-)

The second is that the way one uses instruments usually is different from the way you use your computer. I realize that there are probably professionals that use this stuff all day long like I do when at work with my computer. But for most at the hobby level you will not be taking measurements 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.

Well, there are no silent chainsaws, but there are silent, good scopes. See my reply about the picos, for example. Or, as benchtop go, the R&S RTB2K.

True, one doesn't use a scope 8 hrs a day, but even if you have it turned on for half a hour, you should be able to concentrate upon the work.

In the end, I realize that I cannot justify buying a 3000 eur R&S, even if I save enough money. Not with my current level of experience and competence.
I think that I'll buy a 70 MHz or 100 MHz 4chs Pico within a few months.
I'll miss the buttons & knobs, but I can't really stand the noise.

[balnazzar]

Fungus speaks through his arse as he knows jack shit about Siglent !

There is no need to turn the conversation into unpleasant.

Maybe you ignore my previous report about the same spec Noctua fan is no quieter than what Siglent use = fact #1

I did not ignore it. On the contrary, I stated that that was even more worrying. But consider that Noctua makes a shitload of fans, some of them very high rpm-rated. If someone has put a high-rpm Noctua inside the scope without a resistor, and the scope drives it full steam, of course it will be noisy. But that's just my conjecture..

As for Fungus, if he tells that putting a 7$ fan into his Rigol and that solved the noise, that's a fact as well. Maybe he selected the right fan.

Of course you could best match a replacement fan to your ambient temperatures but a manufacturer can't, they must design for all conditions in a worldwide marketplace so the fan can be thought unnecessarily noisy in a cooler climate = fact #5

That's why they should have put a temperature sensor (2$) in it along with a PWM controller.

Stop being a twat and accept that horsepower needs cooling

What about the picos (fanless) or the RTB2K (quiet)?
I mean, "if you want silence, you have to open your wallet, cheap stuff is noisy" sounds more convincing.

Then if I had my choice based on $ spend for fan noise and features SDS2104X Plus would be first choice

For features maybe. But the review highlighted that it's damn noisy.
The 2K HD is allegedly silent. Allegedly. But it's a 4000$ scope. Out of question.

I'm upset because I'm using the 1104xe and it's indeed a good, nice little scope, like you said days ago. Very good for the price. And yet I have to return it.

Why they had to spoil it with a shitty fan, that really escapes me.

[jasonRF]

It is not easy to find silent (or nearly-silent) test equipment.  When I was shopping for a scope this year I found that there were few options that were 'guaranteed' to be quiet-enough for me - at least without hearing them in-person.  Compared to the great bang-per-buck units like the sds1104x-e, I found the options were either much more expensive (the R&S already discussed), or had fewer features (eg the fanless Owon sds1000-series which also have inferior performance), or both (eg the fanless Tek 1000C series).   

The main fanless options I found that had deep memory and lots of features were the nicer Picoscopes, but they are not cheap and most people strongly prefer benchtop equipment.   The most 'affordable' deep-memory 4-channel option is the 2406B at $700 US (50 MHz, 1 GS/s, 32 MSample memory, 1 MHz AWG w/ Bode plots) but has been out of stock and backordered everywhere for months as far as I can tell; the least-expensive 4-channel deep-memory models actually in-stock in stores cost about $1000 US (2407B, 3403D).   

I was starting to write a reply about the Picos. Take a Pico with good specs. Say 100 MHz, 4chs, 1 GS/s, 128 Mpts.
It sells for ~1100 eur.
It's more than a chinese scope with the same specs, but less, say, than a DSOX1204G.

But the point upon which I'd invite you to reflect upon is that it's a fanless brick completely enclosed by unvented plastic, which is a terrific thermal insulator.
It lacks knobs and a screen but has all the stuff that outputs heat: a beefy processor, the ADC, the memory, etc..

So with a little care it's possible to produce good stuff with a an even better thermal envelope.

I don’t know enough about the internals to know whether the Picoscopes can be compared so directly to the Siglent.  Certainly there are differences. For example, the sds1104x-e has dual 1 GS/s ADCs while the Picoscopes have a single ADC.   But even when comparing to single-ADC bench scopes, much of the processing (for example the FFTs, all of the fancy math channels, and the serial decoding) for the Picoscopes is done in the Picoscope software running on the computer, so less processing is required in the box.  Full disclosure: both of my scopes are Picoscopes (2204a, 5244b) and I love them, but I completely understand why many folks would much prefer a bench scope.  My work area is virtually silent, but that is also because I do not need high-performance power supplies, external signal generators, multimeters, spectrum analyzers, signal analyzers, etc (I only have low-performance gear besides the fancy picoscope).  If you need all of that gear with modern capability, as others have stated, there will be noise.   

Jason

[JeremyC]

balnazzar, I’m guessing you’re trying to get best what you can get in your budged,
but as of now you aren’t sure what you really need.
I would suggest to stay with the AD2, work with your projects, if you hit a limitation make a comment in your work log.
Review the log after some period of time  (3 months?) and you will find what you really need. Otherwise you may end with wasting money.

[Fungus]

Stop being a twat and accept ...

Seriously?

[2N3055]

It is not easy to find silent (or nearly-silent) test equipment.  When I was shopping for a scope this year I found that there were few options that were 'guaranteed' to be quiet-enough for me - at least without hearing them in-person.  Compared to the great bang-per-buck units like the sds1104x-e, I found the options were either much more expensive (the R&S already discussed), or had fewer features (eg the fanless Owon sds1000-series which also have inferior performance), or both (eg the fanless Tek 1000C series).   

The main fanless options I found that had deep memory and lots of features were the nicer Picoscopes, but they are not cheap and most people strongly prefer benchtop equipment.   The most 'affordable' deep-memory 4-channel option is the 2406B at $700 US (50 MHz, 1 GS/s, 32 MSample memory, 1 MHz AWG w/ Bode plots) but has been out of stock and backordered everywhere for months as far as I can tell; the least-expensive 4-channel deep-memory models actually in-stock in stores cost about $1000 US (2407B, 3403D).   

I was starting to write a reply about the Picos. Take a Pico with good specs. Say 100 MHz, 4chs, 1 GS/s, 128 Mpts.
It sells for ~1100 eur.
It's more than a chinese scope with the same specs, but less, say, than a DSOX1204G.

But the point upon which I'd invite you to reflect upon is that it's a fanless brick completely enclosed by unvented plastic, which is a terrific thermal insulator.
It lacks knobs and a screen but has all the stuff that outputs heat: a beefy processor, the ADC, the memory, etc..

So with a little care it's possible to produce good stuff with a an even better thermal envelope.

An observation.
Let me start with a fact I think Picoscopes are brilliant. I have 3.

But you forget that Picoscope contains only acquisition engine. No general purpose CPU for U/I, no screen no PSU. It is not good comparison. And they do have fan and make noise. Some do, higher specced ones. And you have to add in whatever noise your PC has. Which in your case will be rather quiet and maybe already on so there is a win.

Taking all in account I would say maybe that is best choice for you, but this all started with a budget and some requirement that steered away from it..

[2N3055]

Fungus speaks through his arse as he knows jack shit about Siglent !

There is no need to turn the conversation into unpleasant.

Maybe you ignore my previous report about the same spec Noctua fan is no quieter than what Siglent use = fact #1

I did not ignore it. On the contrary, I stated that that was even more worrying. But consider that Noctua makes a shitload of fans, some of them very high rpm-rated. If someone has put a high-rpm Noctua inside the scope without a resistor, and the scope drives it full steam, of course it will be noisy. But that's just my conjecture..

As for Fungus, if he tells that putting a 7$ fan into his Rigol and that solved the noise, that's a fact as well. Maybe he selected the right fan.

Of course you could best match a replacement fan to your ambient temperatures but a manufacturer can't, they must design for all conditions in a worldwide marketplace so the fan can be thought unnecessarily noisy in a cooler climate = fact #5

That's why they should have put a temperature sensor (2$) in it along with a PWM controller.

Stop being a twat and accept that horsepower needs cooling

What about the picos (fanless) or the RTB2K (quiet)?
I mean, "if you want silence, you have to open your wallet, cheap stuff is noisy" sounds more convincing.

Then if I had my choice based on $ spend for fan noise and features SDS2104X Plus would be first choice

For features maybe. But the review highlighted that it's damn noisy.
The 2K HD is allegedly silent. Allegedly. But it's a 4000$ scope. Out of question.

I'm upset because I'm using the 1104xe and it's indeed a good, nice little scope, like you said days ago. Very good for the price. And yet I have to return it.

Why they had to spoil it with a shitty fan, that really escapes me.

Purpose of a fan is to move air. Fact that some people put in fans that don't move enough air to make it silent will compromise thermal integrity of device. Or not, depending whether you're in tropics or Syberia. Manufacturer has to GUARANTEE it will work in full range promised in datasheet.
If you take effort to look at the numbers, very few people bother and think fan needs exchanging. Those that do are in a minority. Nobody is going to make product more expensive for less than 1% of users, compromising sales to 99% users that are quite happy with both device and price. I'm not saying you're stupid for wishing better, but it simply doesn't work that way.

And please will you refrain from statements like "The 2K HD is allegedly silent. Allegedly. ..". That is an example you making a statement that implies I'm lying... I know for fact it is true, not alleged fact. Only statement that is correct from you is that you haven't heard it yourself and you cannot say if would be silent enough for your needs.
And my statements might seem to you like patronizing, but they are simple fact that I know what I am saying and trying to point out facts that are wrong... I don't have to help you, i don't get paid by anybody, nor you, nor any manufacturer or dealer. I don't sell any of this stuff, just a user like you, with a distinction that I have been in this quite long, since the days of CRT scopes. And currently own 7 scopes from different classes, owned more during years, and worked with God know how many...
I also design and manufacture electronics and can tell you it all seems simple until you try it in real life...

I do recognize that you also can, and in fact, do give credit where credit is due. And as I said, I do recognize that you need specific acoustic requirements.
But it is not general case to all users (and this in not my opinion but a fact, from sales channel) and there is no need to call manufacturer or other users names for not having same requirements as you. That is all. You take it as you will.

BUt we get back to beginning.  You must define your priorities correctly. And accept that you might not get what you want (need) for a budget you are willing to pay. In which case either budget or expectations must revised. Simple as that. Complaining at length how manufacturers are stupid for not making devices exactly how it suits you and customers are stupid too because not everyone has same needs as you is, firstly pointless.  It leads to no solution for you. And it also leads to some people getting bothered by being called names...

And this is my last detour from topic here. As far as I'm concerned all scope advice was already dispensed and we are into endless tangential discussions about meaning of the Universe.
I wish you to find a good solution for your needs, without breaking a bank...
All the best to you.

Summary:

By taking into account revised requirements that heavily emphasize on near silent device, I recommend to OP to make a research into fanless devices (some Picoscopes, I believe R&S had entry level scope that was fanless) or a device that has very quiet acoustic envelope (like R&S RTB2000 or SDS2000X HD), off course all by taking into account budget available. I think enough data was given for OP to make good decision. It would be nice for OP to share his final decision and rationale behind it here in a conclusion, so other users with similar budget and requirements (with emphasis on very acoustically quiet scopes) could benefit from all the effort OP and contributors invested in this.

[balnazzar]

Certainly there are differences. For example, the sds1104x-e has dual 1 GS/s ADCs while the Picoscopes have a single ADC.   
[...]
both of my scopes are Picoscopes (2204a, 5244b)

But any 5000-series pico has 8 independent ADCs (I think that's why they can get to 16 bit resolution.. By stacking ADCs..)

[balnazzar]

balnazzar, I’m guessing you’re trying to get best what you can get in your budged,
but as of now you aren’t sure what you really need.
I would suggest to stay with the AD2, work with your projects, if you hit a limitation make a comment in your work log.
Review the log after some period of time  (3 months?) and you will find what you really need. Otherwise you may end with wasting money.

That's a good advice. I will do so. If not out of wisdom, certainly out of necessity.

The 4-chs Picos are not currently manufactured (probably as a consequence of silicon supply chain shortages..), and are due to be delivered again to distributors not before the next summer (Farnell told me they expect them to be delivered june 2023).

I just hope I won't need >2chs too often, and the same goes for 30 MHz (which is like saying I'll be alble to oberve signals up to 5 MHz accurately...).

[Fungus]

Nobody is going to make product more expensive for less than 1% of users, compromising sales to 99% users that are quite happy with both device and price. I'm not saying you're stupid for wishing better, but it simply doesn't work that way.

Now who's inventing numbers?

There are lots of threads on EEVBLOG with people trying to silence their oscilloscopes. Some of them are about Siglents.

Any mod may involve voiding the warranty though, it's up to the individual to make that decision.

Given that a "silent" oscilloscope is going to be much more expensive it might make sense to take the warrant-voiding leap and mod a cheap one. I'd use it a bit first to make sure it doesn't die an early death though. Maybe switch it on when you're not around to hear it.

And please will you refrain from statements like "The 2K HD is allegedly silent. Allegedly. ..". That is an example you making a statement that implies I'm lying... I know for fact it is true, not alleged fact.

Nothing with a fan will ever be truly silent.

[balnazzar]

An observation.
Let me start with a fact I think Picoscopes are brilliant. I have 3.

But you forget that Picoscope contains only acquisition engine. No general purpose CPU for U/I, no screen no PSU. It is not good comparison. And they do have fan and make noise. Some do, higher specced ones. And you have to add in whatever noise your PC has. Which in your case will be rather quiet and maybe already on so there is a win.

Taking all in account I would say maybe that is best choice for you, but this all started with a budget and some requirement that steered away from it..

That's a good point. Although as for general purpose CPUs, consider that for example Apple managed to tuck the M1, one of the most powerful laptop processors in existence, inside a few millimetres thick case, along with a very power-hungry 11" display with very high resolution (displays do draw power as function of their resolution). It's all passively cooled, and it does not overheat.
Now imagine a pico 5000 with its 8 ADCs "stacked" upon an iPad pro.
That would be quite a scope. 11" retina display, blazing fast UI, 8 ADC, 16 bit and whatnot. And *passive*.

[balnazzar]

Purpose of a fan is to move air. Fact that some people put in fans that don't move enough air to make it silent will compromise thermal integrity of device. Or not, depending whether you're in tropics or Syberia. Manufacturer has to GUARANTEE it will work in full range promised in datasheet.
If you take effort to look at the numbers, very few people bother and think fan needs exchanging. Those that do are in a minority. Nobody is going to make product more expensive for less than 1% of users, compromising sales to 99% users that are quite happy with both device and price. I'm not saying you're stupid for wishing better, but it simply doesn't work that way.

I get your point, and there is truth in it. But I still have to read about just 1 person who swapped the fan and then reported that the scope has died due to overheating.

And please will you refrain from statements like "The 2K HD is allegedly silent. Allegedly. ..". That is an example you making a statement that implies I'm lying... I know for fact it is true, not alleged fact.

NO. I'm not implying you are lying. I'm implying that this has been reported by just one person, who happens to be quite insensitive to acoustical noise by his own admission. If you automatically assume nasty intentions by your counterpart in a conversation, such a conversation would necessarily steer toward unpleasant.

It would be nice for OP to share his final decision and rationale behind it here in a conclusion, so other users with similar budget and requirements (with emphasis on very acoustically quiet scopes) could benefit from all the effort OP and contributors invested in this.

Here is what I'll do:

I'll try and use just the AD2 for now. It's very good, apart from its limitations (2chs only, low frequency, etc..).

Then I'll buy a Pico (2000 series, 4ch, probably 70 MHz), hoping that they'll be available soon. If not, I'll go for a Pico 3000 as soon as I have the money.

I would recommend the 1104X-E to anyone who is *very* insensitive to acoustical disturbance, but want a good, cheap scope, with a very good price-quality ratio!

[2N3055]

Purpose of a fan is to move air. Fact that some people put in fans that don't move enough air to make it silent will compromise thermal integrity of device. Or not, depending whether you're in tropics or Syberia. Manufacturer has to GUARANTEE it will work in full range promised in datasheet.
If you take effort to look at the numbers, very few people bother and think fan needs exchanging. Those that do are in a minority. Nobody is going to make product more expensive for less than 1% of users, compromising sales to 99% users that are quite happy with both device and price. I'm not saying you're stupid for wishing better, but it simply doesn't work that way.

I get your point, and there is truth in it. But I still have to read about just 1 person who swapped the fan and then reported that the scope has died due to overheating.

And please will you refrain from statements like "The 2K HD is allegedly silent. Allegedly. ..". That is an example you making a statement that implies I'm lying... I know for fact it is true, not alleged fact.

NO. I'm not implying you are lying. I'm implying that this has been reported by just one person, who happens to be quite insensitive to acoustical noise by his own admission. If you automatically assume nasty intentions by your counterpart in a conversation, such a conversation would necessarily steer toward unpleasant.

It would be nice for OP to share his final decision and rationale behind it here in a conclusion, so other users with similar budget and requirements (with emphasis on very acoustically quiet scopes) could benefit from all the effort OP and contributors invested in this.

Here is what I'll do:

I'll try and use just the AD2 for now. It's very good, apart from its limitations (2chs only, low frequency, etc..).

Then I'll buy a Pico (2000 series, 4ch, probably 70 MHz), hoping that they'll be available soon. If not, I'll go for a Pico 3000 as soon as I have the money.

I would recommend the 1104X-E to anyone who is *very* insensitive to acoustical disturbance, but want a good, cheap scope, with a very good price-quality ratio!

Thank you for your nice post. I just wanted to add that we might be having a problem communicating in language that is foreign to both of us. My meaning of allegedly is "something that is claimed without proof" and usually used in legal proceedings or by journalist when wanting to cast doubt to someone's claims without taking responsibility if journalist or lawyer falsely accused someone.. So it has meaning you are casting doubts my statement is true and unproven, a speculation.. That combined with my adamant statement my claim is fact and a true, means casting doubt as to veracity of me and my statement.. But water under the bridge, I'm just explaining rationale behind on my side..

You are correct there are not many reports of scopes dying after putting in lesser fan. First reason is people don't like to brag about failures. Other reason is because it is not about dying same day, but about decreased reliability. In fact you could go in and disable fan completely, it might work like that for months, especially in nice cold office. But you would probably see weird bugs, freeze ups and that would progress as downward spiral until it would repeatably fail. Or you could see problem only when you enable FFT because then CPU goes up and there is more heat. Anyways thermal engineering is engineering and there is method to the madness. If you want to improve on factory design, you absolutely can, but it has to be done in rational and proper way with testing and measurements. Not just swapping fans and hoping for the best. Or you can, but all bets are off. You might get lucky or not. That is my point.

There are more than one SDS2000X HD users, and my statement is a proven, fact with all of them.
Let's put it this way. SDS2000X HD is so silent that after initial fan test on power up,  I had to switch off all the devices in a lab, close the door and window, and then I had to put an ear 10cm from it to hear a slight whoosh...

Fact that I'm not "sensitive" to fan sound doesn't imply I'm deaf or have trouble hearing. It simply means that I can mentally ignore (I simply don't pay attention to it) slight hum of individual device, especially when more than one device is on. Sort of like those pink noise meditation sounds on Youtube. In fact I had to learn to do so, because I have no luxury to chose- As soon as you go a bit up the chain, there are no more silent devices. And some are more annoying if there are resonances that show up as slight tones.. Sort of tinnitus like noise.. But as I say, you have no choice sometimes.

Actually I have quite keen ear (it is getting worse with age though), but I'm more annoyed and bothered when I start hearing higher frequency noises from switchers or whatnot. I used to get crazy from old CRT TV horizontal frequency that I clearly felt in my ears as an unpleasant pressure..


And now for useful advice about Pico.  I have 4262 (16bit model), a 8Ch 4824A (12 bit) and 3406D MSO. 2000 and 3000 series are 8bit. Higher end 2000 series and entry level 3000 seem to overlap a bit but there are differences.
Make sure to check input ranges, input offset ranges and 20MHz BW filter. I believe 2000 series does not have hardware 20MHz BW filter.
There is also 5000 series that has variable resolution. Most of them support Hexamers FRA application, but not lowest 2000 models. Not all models are available now.

Best,

[balnazzar]

@2N3055

Thanks for the clarification  Yes, we non-native speakers tend to simplify and not to articulate properly. That stands true for myself in the 1st place.

Coming to the scopes, thanks also for the useful info about the Picos. You have quite an assortment, but I think the money spent is justified by the fact you earn a living with them.
Of particular interest is the fact that Hexamer's FRA application is not supported by the 2000-series. That's very bad news! 

EDIT: May I ask what you think about the Pico's software suite? Is it bug-free? Complete? And so no..

[2N3055]

@2N3055

Thanks for the clarification  Yes, we non-native speakers tend to simplify and not to articulate properly. That stands true for myself in the 1st place.

Coming to the scopes, thanks also for the useful info about the Picos. You have quite an assortment, but I think the money spent is justified by the fact you earn a living with them.
Of particular interest is the fact that Hexamer's FRA application is not supported by the 2000-series. That's very bad news! 

EDIT: May I ask what you think about the Pico's software suite? Is it bug-free? Complete? And so no..

FRA supports 2000 ones with larger memory.
And yes they all paid for themselves. In fact I would buy them for the project.. With time they start grow numbers..

Pico 6 SW is very stable and fully featured. It has a bit older windows app concept.
There is V7 beta that is getting to be feature complete, with much more modern GUI . I actually use it all the time, and check with V6 when in doubt.
V7 felt unusual in beginning but with time I like it better than old one. I run it on 23" touchscreen on PC and it works the treat..
Pico is is quite conservative and tend to debug quite well.

[balnazzar]

Most of them support Hexamers FRA application, but not lowest 2000 models. Not all models are available now.

I'm trying to get more info about that. In particular, which ones are 'lowest enough' not to support the FRA app.

It seems the absolute lowest model (10 MHz) is not supported [source: pico forums, Hexamer's posts]
It is unclear if for example, the 25,50,70,100 MHz models support it.

The wiki says:
The current design of the application requires a PicoScope device that has at least 2 channels and a function generator. [...]
Some devices are not compatible due to other unique impediments. For example, the PS3204 function generator currently does not output a pure sine.

It also seems that the FRA won't work with an external function generator.

[jasonRF]

Certainly there are differences. For example, the sds1104x-e has dual 1 GS/s ADCs while the Picoscopes have a single ADC.   
[...]
both of my scopes are Picoscopes (2204a, 5244b)

But any 5000-series pico has 8 independent ADCs (I think that's why they can get to 16 bit resolution.. By stacking ADCs..)

Dave did a teardown of a 5000B scope a bunch of years ago (I think it was a 5443B), so I know that it has a single ADC chip that draws something like 1/2 Watt.  It is a very specialized chip, and they basically designed their scopes around it.  I suspect they use that same chip in the current 5000D series, unless it is obsolete.     

Regarding FRA4Picoscope, it works fine with my 2204a, the cheapest Picoscope in the current lineup.  For years that was my only scope and I used that app many times.  There are examples from at least two different 2000-series (including my 2204a) in the thread
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/picoscope-2000/

jason

[2N3055]

Most of them support Hexamers FRA application, but not lowest 2000 models. Not all models are available now.

I'm trying to get more info about that. In particular, which ones are 'lowest enough' not to support the FRA app.

It seems the absolute lowest model (10 MHz) is not supported [source: pico forums, Hexamer's posts]
It is unclear if for example, the 25,50,70,100 MHz models support it.

The wiki says:
The current design of the application requires a PicoScope device that has at least 2 channels and a function generator. [...]
Some devices are not compatible due to other unique impediments. For example, the PS3204 function generator currently does not output a pure sine.

It also seems that the FRA won't work with an external function generator.

2000 series with small memory does not work. Because it has to capture large burst at a time.
Actually it works but not all the time and with all settings.. I don't remember the details.
2207B up to 2408B have 64 MB memory and they work fine for sure.
Which puts it in a almost same price bracket as smaller of 3000 series, that are better devices.

PS3204 is old discontinued device...

Interesting thing about Hexamer's FRA fro Picoscope is that full source is available. And if you look into source, signal generating part is separated in module and can be replaced with code that drives some other generator... In  fact there are preparations in code for it..

[jasonRF]

Most of them support Hexamers FRA application, but not lowest 2000 models. Not all models are available now.

I'm trying to get more info about that. In particular, which ones are 'lowest enough' not to support the FRA app.

It seems the absolute lowest model (10 MHz) is not supported [source: pico forums, Hexamer's posts]
It is unclear if for example, the 25,50,70,100 MHz models support it.

The wiki says:
The current design of the application requires a PicoScope device that has at least 2 channels and a function generator. [...]
Some devices are not compatible due to other unique impediments. For example, the PS3204 function generator currently does not output a pure sine.

It also seems that the FRA won't work with an external function generator.

The 3204 is a very old model that is out of production (EDIT: I see 2n3055 beat me to it!).  My understanding is that it works fine with most of the more modern Picoscopes.   Again, I have never had any problems using it with my 2204a.  Works every time.

And yes, only Hexamer  has written a plugin to interface with another function generator.  But the hooks are there, as 2N3055 points out.

If you want to use an external function generator to do Bode plots outside of FRA4Picoscope there are several options. 

1. Just like you can with any scope, do it the old-fashioned way and manually do the measurements frequency by frequency, then plot in your software of choice.  This is complicated by the fact that the Picoscope software does not have automated time-delay or phase-difference measurements, which is a little irritating.  You can use math channels to program your own, or you can use cursors and do it the slow way... 

2. Use the PicoSDK (software developement kit) and write you own code.  If you are using c or c++ it might take some time depending on your programming skills, but if you are happy with a simple Python script there are Python wrappers for the PicoSDK functions.   The key will be learning how to control your function generator from Python.  I have started playing with this recently, and it doesn't look bad at all to control a Picoscope and read the data, although it will probably take another couple of hours to get a simple end-to-end script to make basic plots (mostly hampered by the fact that I don't really know Python).  The only computer-controllable signal sources I have are a nanoVNA, tinySA, and an Arduino-controlled AD9833-based generator still on a solderless breadboard.  While I can control all of them just fine from Python, all just use simple commands over a COM port.  Commercial function generators may take more work to interface. 

3. Semi-automated.  For each frequency: setup the function generator and scope settings, then save the waveforms in an output file.  One file per frequency.  Then you can suck the data into your favorite software (I have done this with Octave), looping over the files to compute the gain and phase for each frequency and then generate the plot.   I have done this a number of times with my 2204a using an old 12-MHz BK Precision DDS function generator (an ebay special) that has no provisions for software control.  This approach takes some time - using keyboard shortcuts I can do about three frequencies per minute (mostly dominated by the wonky function gen interface).  I estimate the frequency as part of processing each file, so don't need to keep track of that info separately or do the frequencies in any particular order.

jason

[balnazzar]

But any 5000-series pico has 8 independent ADCs (I think that's why they can get to 16 bit resolution.. By stacking ADCs..)

Dave did a teardown of a 5000B scope a bunch of years ago (I think it was a 5443B), so I know that it has a single ADC chip that draws something like 1/2 Watt.  It is a very specialized chip, and they basically designed their scopes around it.  I suspect they use that same chip in the current 5000D series, unless it is obsolete.     

Regarding FRA4Picoscope, it works fine with my 2204a, the cheapest Picoscope in the current lineup.  For years that was my only scope and I used that app many times.  There are examples from at least two different 2000-series (including my 2204a) in the thread
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/picoscope-2000/

jason

Thanks for the information!

I was making reference to this forum post: https://www.picotech.com/support/topic14311.html
Particularly, the third post from above. Says that the 2204A has something that hinders the FRA app. Maybe it was solved in the successive software releases?

About the 5000 series, they advertise them as having eight (!) ADCs. Maybe it's just for the lastest 5000 series models?

One question about that little 10 MHz scope. How often did you hit the bandwidth limit in your work? For example, you were able to accurately observe transients up to which frequency?

Thanks!

[balnazzar]

Interesting thing about Hexamer's FRA fro Picoscope is that full source is available. And if you look into source, signal generating part is separated in module and can be replaced with code that drives some other generator... In  fact there are preparations in code for it..

That's very good news. If it's witten in Python, I have some programming experience with it.
Thanks!

[balnazzar]

If you want to use an external function generator to do Bode plots outside of FRA4Picoscope there are several options. 

[...]

Thanks a lot, very detailed reply!

[jasonRF]

But any 5000-series pico has 8 independent ADCs (I think that's why they can get to 16 bit resolution.. By stacking ADCs..)

Dave did a teardown of a 5000B scope a bunch of years ago (I think it was a 5443B), so I know that it has a single ADC chip that draws something like 1/2 Watt.  It is a very specialized chip, and they basically designed their scopes around it.  I suspect they use that same chip in the current 5000D series, unless it is obsolete.     

Regarding FRA4Picoscope, it works fine with my 2204a, the cheapest Picoscope in the current lineup.  For years that was my only scope and I used that app many times.  There are examples from at least two different 2000-series (including my 2204a) in the thread
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/picoscope-2000/

jason

Thanks for the information!

I was making reference to this forum post: https://www.picotech.com/support/topic14311.html
Particularly, the third post from above. Says that the 2204A has something that hinders the FRA app. Maybe it was solved in the successive software releases?

About the 5000 series, they advertise them as having eight (!) ADCs. Maybe it's just for the lastest 5000 series models?

One question about that little 10 MHz scope. How often did you hit the bandwidth limit in your work? For example, you were able to accurately observe transients up to which frequency?

Thanks!

That post about lack of support for the 2204a is from 2014.  There have been many improvements to FRA4Picoscope since then!

Regarding bandwidth, my particular unit has a -3dB bandwidth around 25 MHz give-or-take.  It also falls off relatively slowly, depending on which vertical scale setting you are in.  If I forget to use a decoupling cap on an op amp and it is oscillating at 20 MHz it is no problem to see it.   Likewise, when I have built discrete audio amplifiers that had transient induced instabilities (eg “fuzz” showing up after the falling edge during square-wave testing).   Bumping up the compensation capacitor to the next one in my drawer made the fuzz go away.  But if I had an emitter-follower with a parasitic oscillation at 150 MHz I would be blind to it.   Not that I think I have run into that, but increased bandwidth was the primary reason why I upgraded this year.   My review in the thread I linked has more info on my thoughts about the 2204a. 

Jason

[balnazzar]

My review in the thread I linked has more info on my thoughts about the 2204a. 

Jason

Reading right now, thanks!

[balnazzar]

Just as reference for people who comes reading this thread, here is an RLC circuit captured with the AD2, while the AWG makes a sweep 50-20K, with the FFT below. How cute

https://youtu.be/DvlKVv5lGa0

I still have to figure out why the non-peak frequencies do exhibit that pulsation.. It's interesting.. 

[nctnico]

Bottom line: chinese scopes tend to be noisy (and in the case of the MSO5K, not only acoustically...). That's what I don't like about chinese products in general. They tend to deliver stuff that works, but they are always kind of half-finished. How much more would cost to be a bit more attentive to the acoustical noise? Almost nothing. A better fan, PWM control, maybe make the scope 1 cm thicker and put a 120mm fan on the back, exhausting from the side vents..

At work my office door opens into an electronics lab packed with high-end gear made by non-Chinese companies (Tek, Agilent, R&S, Anritsu, Keysight, etc.) and it is loud enough that I need to keep my door shut in order to hear myself think.  While I know I am extra sensitive to the noise, it leads me to suspect that the nationality of the company may not have a lot to do with this.

From what I have seen over the years is that older equipment tends not to be designed with acoustic comfort in mind. In some cases the amount of airflow is overkill for normal, room temperature operating conditions. I have a couple of HP6012A (1kW lab supplies) and I have modified these with thermal controlled fans (at low RPM by default). Even under high load, the fans don't spin any faster at room temperature. The thermal solution is clearly designed to survive high temperatures and a lot of dust on the heatsinks. I also have a recent Keysight lab PSU. This one is whisper quiet and the fan only becomes audible under a considerable load. Personally I don't like to sit in an office with a lot of noise coming from fans. Whether you notice it or not, it does affect your thinking because your brains are busy filtering the noise away.

Replacing fans in existing equipment can be tricky. The replacement needs to provide the same airflow AND pressure. Noctua fans have a good name but aren't always the most optimal solution. There are many other fans out there which offer better airpressure at lower RPM by using more blades and/or by using a thicker frame.

I spend quite a bit of time making a Lecroy Wavepro 7k series quieter. I found a couple of rather exotic (and obsolete) fans that offer the same amount of airflow / pressure but make about 6dB less noise (which is significant). Using the service menu I could monitor the temperatures of various parts and compare the fan performance and thus make sure that the new fans offer at least the same amount of cooling.

But in the end low noise starts with a well thought out thermal design that includes things like directing the airflow. I have a Dell workstation which is whisper quiet due to the airducts that direct the airflow to the places where it is actually needed. The Lecroy Wavepro 7k OTOH has no airflow design at all so it needs a crapload of air and a lot of it goes nowhere.

[Anthocyanina]

One thing that may be of interest.

The AD2 also has the 'no zoom out' issue, exactly as the Siglents and many other scopes.

Isn't the zoom out thing with siglent that it will just capture however many samples are on the screen and not let you zoom out if you stop the acquisition?.

If that's it, then the AD2 doesn't do it. It lets you zoom out, but what limits it is the sample memory. As long as you're sampling at 100MSPS and have configured it for 16384 points for the scope, you'll be able to get 163microseconds of record, even if you stopped the acquisition at the fastest timebase. When you are sampling at a slower rate, it's because now it needs to reduce the sample rate to fill the sample memory, and at some point, it will be just enough to fill the screen.

[tautech]

Isn't the zoom out thing with Siglent that it will just capture however many samples are on the screen and not let you zoom out if you stop the acquisition?.

Only affect some models, certainly not all and is a mimic of the LeCroy way of managing captures.

[Martin72]

Replacing fans in existing equipment can be tricky.

It IS tricky when you know what´s behind the fan thing - Most didn´t and simply exchange the fan.

The replacement needs to provide the same airflow AND pressure..

Yepp, thermal design is the keyword although I have doubts in some cases, manufacturers are taking care of this.
For example the MSO5000...
As known I´d give mine away for modifying it by rigol itself(Display, Fan).
It came back and was hearable more silent - They simply took a resistor in series to the fan, no fan exchange, no regulation implemented.
But the scope was getting significant warmer so I´ve asked them, if this was proofed before and they answered yes.....yes it´s no problem.
Aha...

Noctua fans have a good name but aren't always the most optimal solution. There are many other fans out there which offer better airpressure at lower RPM by using more blades and/or by using a thicker frame

Signing this.

But in the end low noise starts with a well thought out thermal design that includes things like directing the airflow.

Yepp, most manufacturers don´t follow this and letting the flow going anywhere.

[balnazzar]

Personally I don't like to sit in an office with a lot of noise coming from fans. Whether you notice it or not, it does affect your thinking because your brains are busy filtering the noise away.

But in the end low noise starts with a well thought out thermal design that includes things like directing the airflow. I have a Dell workstation which is whisper quiet due to the airducts that direct the airflow to the places where it is actually needed. The Lecroy Wavepro 7k OTOH has no airflow design at all so it needs a crapload of air and a lot of it goes nowhere.

As you may imagine, I agree about the overload on the brain.

And I learned how important the airflow is by months of trial and error in my journey into building a silent computer. Also, fan grills and filters do impact upon noise and air pressure and airflow up to some extent.

[balnazzar]

If that's it, then the AD2 doesn't do it. It lets you zoom out, but what limits it is the sample memory. As long as you're sampling at 100MSPS and have configured it for 16384 points for the scope, you'll be able to get 163microseconds of record, even if you stopped the acquisition at the fastest timebase. When you are sampling at a slower rate, it's because now it needs to reduce the sample rate to fill the sample memory, and at some point, it will be just enough to fill the screen.

Thanks man, I didn't know that. I'm still delving into the manual, there are a lot of things to learn for such a small and apparently simple device.

Let me ask you: is there any way to get a log sweep out of the AWG? Thanks!

[jasonRF]

Interesting thing about Hexamer's FRA fro Picoscope is that full source is available. And if you look into source, signal generating part is separated in module and can be replaced with code that drives some other generator... In  fact there are preparations in code for it..

That's very good news. If it's witten in Python, I have some programming experience with it.
Thanks!

It is not written in Python.  Sorry!

[baldurn]

From what I have seen over the years is that older equipment tends not to be designed with acoustic comfort in mind.

Or sadly just older designs even though the instruments are sold as new. Or even new designs. I own multiple new instruments from Siglent and some of them are silent with clearly temp controlled fans. Others clearly have no fan controller and just run at full blast at all times. It may be several design teams and the guy that cared only works on one of the teams :-)

An instrument that runs the fan at full blast will have thermal limits that allow one to install a controller to regulate that down in a normal office. The thing will be designed to run in a desert country, and if you do not happen to be in such a location, it will have more airflow going than needed.

People suggest replacing the fan but my first choice would be to install a fan controller. The existing fan might be just fine when not at max rpm.

[nctnico]

A fan controller is an  option but the problem is where to locate the temperature sensor. There may not even be a single place because temperature can depend on the type of load/use of test equipment.

[2N3055]

A fan controller is an  option but the problem is where to locate the temperature sensor. There may not even be a single place because temperature can depend on the type of load/use of test equipment.

LOL, almost verbatim what I wanted to write.... I agree.

Also sometimes it is not even about evacuating air from the case but mixing it inside to even out hotspots...

[baldurn]

A fan controller is an  option but the problem is where to locate the temperature sensor. There may not even be a single place because temperature can depend on the type of load/use of test equipment.

If all else fails you can use ambient temperature. My Siglent SDM 3055 appears to run the fan at full blast always. It is specified as "Full accuracy from 0 °C to 50 °C, 80% RH and 40 °C, non condensing". Currently the temperature in my lab is 19 degrees celsius - who thinks the thing really needs to run at full blast as designed for 50 degrees?

Just don't turn it all the way down. 50% removes most of the noise.

Of course they also specify aging depending on temperature, and so allowing higher temperature will increase aging. That would be a tradeoff you need to decide on. Maybe also the reason they run the fan at max is so they can get slightly better numbers in the datasheet regarding aging.

[Martin72]

A fan controller is an  option but the problem is where to locate the temperature sensor. There may not even be a single place because temperature can depend on the type of load/use of test equipment.

Would be interesting to know where the tempsensor is placed on a scope which got fancontrol.
Can´t imagine for example that the adc´s got a internal sensor like cpus got, makes me curious to look where my HD got the sensor placed.
I´ve got a feeling that most regulator circuits are measuring simply the ambient temp on the board.

Currently the temperature in my lab is 19 degrees celsius - who thinks the thing really needs to run at full blast as designed for 50 degrees?

The specified ambient temperature based on the "full blast" fan, when you reduce the fanspeed to the half it will not mean that the max ambient temp will also reduced to the half, to 25°.

[rf-loop]

Can´t imagine for example that the adc´s got a internal sensor like cpus got, makes me curious to look where my HD got the sensor placed.
I´ve got a feeling that most regulator circuits are measuring simply the ambient temp on the board.

I do not mean how fan temp control is done here but SDS2kX HD ADC have temperature sensor diode.
ADC data sheet page 66.: 8.1.5.1 Temperature Sensor

...has an on-die temperature diode connected to pins Tdiode+/- which may be used to monitor
the die temperature.
There is, in datasheet, also more text about using this.




Disclaimer/note: I do not claim or say here anything that Siglent used this method as shown here or for this purpose!

But ADC includes this feature.

Using, for example, the LM95235/95213/95214 circuit, and this particular diode inside ADC  as sensor, can do many kinds of temperature monitoring and control accordingly.

[balnazzar]

Would be interesting to know where the tempsensor is placed on a scope which got fancontrol.
Can´t imagine for example that the adc´s got a internal sensor like cpus got, makes me curious to look where my HD got the sensor placed.
I´ve got a feeling that most regulator circuits are measuring simply the ambient temp on the board.

It shoud be sufficient to measure the ambient temp over the board, or even the general ambient temp. Indeed, the manufacturer should know how the single components thermally behave as function of ambient temperature.

[nctnico]

A fan controller is an  option but the problem is where to locate the temperature sensor. There may not even be a single place because temperature can depend on the type of load/use of test equipment.

Would be interesting to know where the tempsensor is placed on a scope which got fancontrol.
Can´t imagine for example that the adc´s got a internal sensor like cpus got, makes me curious to look where my HD got the sensor placed.
I´ve got a feeling that most regulator circuits are measuring simply the ambient temp on the board.

Currently the temperature in my lab is 19 degrees celsius - who thinks the thing really needs to run at full blast as designed for 50 degrees?

The specified ambient temperature based on the "full blast" fan, when you reduce the fanspeed to the half it will not mean that the max ambient temp will also reduced to the half, to 25°.

If you look at heatsink datasheets, you'll see that the relation between airflow and thermal resistance is not linear at all. And then you need to account for the buildup of dust that increases the thermal resistance. All in all it is not very straightforward to simply reduce the airflow.

[Martin72]

I know this, see my post you've quoted.

[Fungus]

I just found this...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/3d-printable-case-for-analog-discovery-2/

I put it in a separate thread to make it easier to find via search.

[balnazzar]

I put it in a separate thread to make it easier to find via search.

I think that will make a lot of people happy. I think that digilent should have put something similar for sale...!