Author Topic: MSO5000 Bode Plot Capability: Is it Good Enough? [Many tips about a 1st scope]  (Read 26588 times)

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Online nctnico

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #75 on: October 03, 2022, 07:31:02 pm »
The ability to fling the scope screen on my 27" inch monitor mounted on a VESA arm really is something I want to have.
If that is the case, then why not get a USB oscilloscope?
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #76 on: October 03, 2022, 07:57:38 pm »
AFAIK Tektronix has VESA mount holes on their oscilloscopes as a standard.

I could be wrong but I got the impression it was only on that new model, and mostly because it's usually screwed to a pretty stand.



Lots of people have commented on it though. Maybe it will become more common.
 

Offline balnazzarTopic starter

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #77 on: October 03, 2022, 08:33:39 pm »
The ability to fling the scope screen on my 27" inch monitor mounted on a VESA arm really is something I want to have.
If that is the case, then why not get a USB oscilloscope?

Mainly because it's nice to have the web interface (or hdmi, like the mso5K) but maybe it's a bit unwise to give up integrated display, buttons and knobs altogether.

Anyway, apart from the Picos, what quality usb scope are present on the market? Consider that a 4-channel Pico around 100 MHz exceed the cost of the scopes we discussed in this thread. I think they start around 1500 eur.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #78 on: October 03, 2022, 08:36:41 pm »
I can't imagine PicoScope is the only manufacturer of decent USB oscilloscopes out there. But I have not really investigated that market segment myself.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #79 on: October 03, 2022, 08:44:04 pm »
The ability to fling the scope screen on my 27" inch monitor mounted on a VESA arm really is something I want to have.

nb. You don't get any more pixels. It's just the 'scope's screen scaled to a window.

With a USB 'scope (or Analog Discovery) you actually get more information on screen when you make the window bigger.

HDMI capture for a PC can be had very cheaply. https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=hdmi+capture+usb

I'm not sure I'd give up a touch screen interface on the 'scope just to have remote access from a PC.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #80 on: October 03, 2022, 08:46:29 pm »
Another option would be a modern Micsig oscilloscope combined with Analog Discovery for the bode plots.  :popcorn:

Micsigs are a joy to use. (it's what I own)

Analog Discoverys have a 14-bit ADC for the bode plots and can also do logic analysis for your Arduino.


Edit: You can download the Analog Discovery software and use the "analog" part for free with your PC sound card. It does oscilloscope, spectrum analysis, bode plots...
« Last Edit: October 03, 2022, 09:03:57 pm by Fungus »
 
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Online Martin72

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #81 on: October 03, 2022, 09:10:04 pm »
Hi,

Quote
1. If the OS is fast and responsive, compared to Instek's.
2. If the user interface is intuitive to use (again, compared to the Instek's).

Both can be answered by someone who works with all of the mentioned scopes - And then it´s his own impression.
In my case, I got following "scope owning history":

- Rigol DS1000Z
- Rigol DS2000
- Siglent SDS1104X-E
- Rigol MSO5000
- Siglent SDS2000Xplus
- Siglent SDS2000X HD (actual scope)

GW Instek never came into my mind, maybe they making good scopes and nearly nobody knows about, or they knowing about it and this may explain their place by the hobbyists.  ;)

Interesting. Two questions:

1. Why did you switch from the 2K plus to the 2K HD?
2. How did the MSO5K compare with the SDS1104X-E *purely in terms of noise and OS/UI quickness*?

Thanks.

Sorry, overlooked this...

1. Because of the 12bit - To be honest, it´s a buy for the "future" when I´ll need to have 12 bit resolution, actually I didn´t need it urgently.
Most of the hobbyists won´t need this... ;)
In general you(and others) would be surprised how "less" you really need...
I had the 2000X+ over 2 yrs, ordered three for our testfield at work where they´re used everyday without any issues.
The 2000X+ is (in my opnion) the benchmark what "lower midrange" scopes concerns.
Yes low, the 1400€ is "nothing" in the scope world...
I´ve also ordered a current probe from siglent - It costs over 1000€ more than the three SDS2104X+ together...

2. This is a little bit "unfair", as the MSO5000 got a more complex UI in compare with the 1104X-E.
The touch response is indeed a little bit "laggy", but you can avoid it by using a mouse.
Fan noise was annoying, after the upgrade it was less but still hearable.
Noise on the 1104X-E was similar to the MSO5000 after it´s upgrade.
In both cases not really silent but this is only disturbing when it´s totally calm in your room.





 
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Online nctnico

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #82 on: October 03, 2022, 09:13:45 pm »
Another option would be a modern Micsig oscilloscope combined with Analog Discovery for the bode plots.  :popcorn:

That is a good option as well but would exceed the total budget.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #83 on: October 03, 2022, 09:17:36 pm »
That is a good option as well but would exceed the total budget.

It's in the ballpark of an MSO5000.

 

Online thm_w

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #84 on: October 03, 2022, 09:18:20 pm »
Quote
But I need decent Bode plots.

I'll echo 2N3055's opinion here. Sounds like someone who doesn't understand what they need or why.
If this is for beginner hobby use, then any instrument that supports bode plots will likely be fine.

If this is for actual design use where parameters are critical, then you'd either be:
- Using a dedicated device (as mentioned above, eg audio specific)
- Using various equipment with USB/LAN capability and pulling the data into your own plotting setup on a PC
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Online 2N3055

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #85 on: October 03, 2022, 09:37:37 pm »
Another option would be a modern Micsig oscilloscope combined with Analog Discovery for the bode plots.  :popcorn:

Micsigs are a joy to use. (it's what I own)

Analog Discoverys have a 14-bit ADC for the bode plots and can also do logic analysis for your Arduino.


Edit: You can download the Analog Discovery software and use the "analog" part for free with your PC sound card. It does oscilloscope, spectrum analysis, bode plots...

Micsig scopes don't even have statistics in basic measurements. Or segmented capture in their lower priced models.
It is very nice and useful portable scope and that is it.

To be honest, what is all this high recommendation for AD2 as a FRA device. I know it has Bode plot functionality but despite it's nominal 14bit resolution, it has only 2 measurement ranges. What is actual performance of it performing stability analysis on a switcher PSU? Dynamic range and complete amplitude range? How well it performs in presence of noise?
I searched and found no real performance figures in real world scenarios..
I also found some claiming problems :
https://ashwinschronicles.github.io/analog-discovery-2-labview-home-bundle-review

So what is real performance of AD2?
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #86 on: October 03, 2022, 09:48:13 pm »
Micsig scopes don't even have statistics in basic measurements. Or segmented capture in their lower priced models.

Maybe not everybody needs it. I can't say I've missed having it since I traded in my Rigol. :-//

The Micsig is way faster/easier to use, I don't regret the loss of a few "checkbox" features at all.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #87 on: October 03, 2022, 10:12:55 pm »
I also found some claiming problems :
https://ashwinschronicles.github.io/analog-discovery-2-labview-home-bundle-review

Seems like most of them were due to him trying to use it as a power supply to drive 4 Ohm loads over a long USB cable from a laptop.

So what is real performance of AD2?

I don't have exact figures but I'm 100% sure it costs a lot less money than a Siglent HD series.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2022, 10:23:08 pm by Fungus »
 

Online Martin72

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #88 on: October 03, 2022, 10:18:58 pm »
Quote
I don't have exact figures but I'm 100% sure it costs a lot less money than a Siglent HD series.

 :-//

Context please.

Offline Fungus

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #89 on: October 03, 2022, 10:22:47 pm »
Quote
I don't have exact figures but I'm 100% sure it costs a lot less money than a Siglent HD series.

 :-//

Context please.

The context is "Bode plots" - see thread title.

I wasn't aware anybody here was considering it for stability analysis on a switcher PSU. I was thinking more that OP wanted Bode Plots and had mentioned wanting to do it on his 27" PC monitor.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2022, 10:25:26 pm by Fungus »
 

Online tautech

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #90 on: October 03, 2022, 10:55:14 pm »
I was thinking more that OP wanted Bode Plots and had mentioned wanting to do it on his 27" PC monitor.
Which he could do with a $499 DSO and webserver connection using his already acquired AWG, a Uni-T IIRC however I'm not 100% is anyone has scripted a Uni-T yet to talk to Siglent Bode plot control.
A $360 SDG1032X would fix that and still beat a MSO5k budget.
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Online nctnico

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #91 on: October 03, 2022, 10:55:20 pm »
Micsig scopes don't even have statistics in basic measurements. Or segmented capture in their lower priced models.

Maybe not everybody needs it. I can't say I've missed having it since I traded in my Rigol. :-//
Agreed. I rather have good decoding and deep memory always on instead of segmented recording and statistics.

Edit: as has been written before: in the lower end there will be comprises to be made; there is no perfect scope that does all.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2022, 12:22:05 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #92 on: October 03, 2022, 11:29:44 pm »
Re: The AD2.

Just to be 100% clear: The AD2 is NOT a great oscilloscope, it will never replace a bench oscilloscope.

What it IS is a general purpose electronics tool, it does all sorts of clever/useful things.

It might help to think of it as a "Swiss Army Knife" - they're not the greatest knife in the world but they have all sorts of other tools like screwdrivers and scissors and saws.

Check out all the modules here:

https://digilent.com/shop/software/digilent-waveforms/

Edit: It looks like they forgot the curve tracer...

What is actual performance of it performing stability analysis on a switcher PSU? Dynamic range and complete amplitude range? How well it performs in presence of noise?
I searched and found no real performance figures in real world scenarios ..what is real performance of AD2?

That's completely the wrong way to think about the AD2.

I know it has Bode plot functionality but despite it's nominal 14bit resolution, it has only 2 measurement ranges.

Yep. 5V and 20V ranges.

If you're doing Bode Plots at 100mV (or above) then it'll work just fine.

(maybe even at 50mV).
« Last Edit: October 03, 2022, 11:36:59 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline balnazzarTopic starter

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #93 on: October 04, 2022, 12:31:39 am »

nb. You don't get any more pixels. It's just the 'scope's screen scaled to a window.


I suspected that. It can still be useful, but I was aiming for a glorious 4K, 27" representation of my signals.


With a USB 'scope (or Analog Discovery) you actually get more information on screen when you make the window bigger.

HDMI capture for a PC can be had very cheaply. https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=hdmi+capture+usb

I'm not sure I'd give up a touch screen interface on the 'scope just to have remote access from a PC.

Would you recommend some usb scopes with good software?
I know that the AD2 is good for the price, but it's just 30 Mhz. Which, with the 5X, means that you get to observe signals, accurately, up to just 6 MHz.
The Picoscopes are expensive as hell (I could get the 70 MHz maximum, at ~850 eur) , and the software doesn't appear to be so great.

Thanks for the tip about hdmi capture, I didn't know that!
 

Offline balnazzarTopic starter

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #94 on: October 04, 2022, 12:34:01 am »
Edit: You can download the Analog Discovery software and use the "analog" part for free with your PC sound card. It does oscilloscope, spectrum analysis, bode plots...

But up to what? 44 KHz?
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #95 on: October 04, 2022, 12:37:52 am »
But up to what? 44 KHz?

Whatever your sound card is capable of.

The AD2 software supports sound cards up to 384kHz sample rate.
 
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Offline balnazzarTopic starter

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #96 on: October 04, 2022, 12:39:45 am »

In both cases not really silent but this is only disturbing when it´s totally calm in your room.

Which usually is, since I'm a silence maniac, and spent a great deal of money to build an ultra-silent desktop PC.

Truth being told, I think I want too much without having the budget.

 

Online nctnico

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #97 on: October 04, 2022, 12:41:37 am »
Truth being told, I think I want too much without having the budget.
Welcome to the club  8)

The best way forward is to make a short list with pros & cons and decide based on that. Whatever you buy now, you'll buy a different oscilloscope in a few years. Maybe even have two or more oscilloscopes which complement eachother. At the moment I have 5, each with their strengths and weaknesses.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2022, 01:04:23 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline balnazzarTopic starter

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #98 on: October 04, 2022, 12:53:32 am »
That is a good option as well but would exceed the total budget.

It's in the ballpark of an MSO5000.

Bartronix sells the 4 chs with the joystics for 650 euros. Consider that AD2, impedance analyzer and bnc adapter are almost at 500.

I'd be 200 eur more than the mso5074. The Siglent would save me 130 bucks.
But apart from that, from what I've read about the Micsigs, they compare as follows with the 499$ siglent.

Micsig pros:
- Very good build quality
- Battery powered, portable.
- Snappy UI, with Android.
Cons:
- Not expandable with a logic probe
- No Bodes
- No statistics, as noted above.
- Not hackable to 200 MHz

I was thinking more that OP wanted Bode Plots and had mentioned wanting to do it on his 27" PC monitor.
Which he could do with a $499 DSO and webserver connection using his already acquired AWG, a Uni-T IIRC however I'm not 100% is anyone has scripted a Uni-T yet to talk to Siglent Bode plot control.
A $360 SDG1032X would fix that and still beat a MSO5k budget.

Indeed, no one has scripted for the UNI-T wg. I checked.

But Fungus is right in saying that the web interface will just make a mere 800x600 picture bigger, and more coarse grained.
OTOH, it seems there are no decent (100 MHz, good software) usb scopes for <1000 bucks. And software is very important if you are going to give up buttons and knobs.
 
« Last Edit: October 04, 2022, 01:11:23 am by balnazzar »
 

Offline balnazzarTopic starter

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Re: MSO5000 Bode Plotting Capability: Is it Good Enough?
« Reply #99 on: October 04, 2022, 01:08:54 am »
Truth being told, I think I want too much without having the budget.
Welcome to the club  8)

The best way forward is to make a short list with pros & cons and decide based on that. Whatever you buy now, you'll buy a different oscilloscope in a few years. Maybe even have two oscilloscopes which complement eachother. At the moment I have 5, each with their strengths and weaknesses.

Here is what I think will be the wisest purchases with my limited budget: The little Siglent and the AD2. Here is why:

I'll get a real scope with 2 ADCs, 100 MHz by default, possibly hackable to 200. This would give me bandwidth to grow within.
It can also mirror its admittedly puny 800x600 screen on a big monitor. Will look pixelated, but it can ease the effort on my eyes during long probing sessions, something that the Instek cannot do.

With the AD2 I'll have practical usb scope, with limited bandwtdth, but with very good software that will do fine with my 4K monitor. It will give me immediate Bode plotting capabilities. If I need more, at higher frequencies, I will buy a Siglent 60 MHz SDG in the future.

Edit: as has been written before: in the lower end there will be comprises to be made; there is no perfect scope that does all.

It would not be difficult to make such a machine. It's just that it's a terribly conservative industry, from what I'm seeing.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2022, 01:10:36 am by balnazzar »
 


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