Author Topic: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A  (Read 3829 times)

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Offline stafil

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MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« on: March 26, 2020, 07:24:09 pm »
Hi folks!

Sorry for the usual this vs that question, but after spending a lot of hours reading the relevant threads, I only ended up getting confused more.

To start let me say that I am a complete new to electronics and this is just for hobby projects/experimenting. I have about $1200 max to blow on an oscilloscope. I know that for my use even the humble 1054z would be enough, but being a gearhead I decided to go with something "better".

I have narrowed it down to MSO5074 or DSOX1204A.

On one hand we have MSO5074 which is so much better in paper and cheaper. On the other hand I always appreciate reliability and accuracy over bugs and poor implementation, and from the posts I read about MSO5074 there seem to be a lot of bugs. And to be honest software bugs don't scare me as much as hardware bugs (i.e. the PLL bug of 1054z), assuming the vendor is committed to fixing their software bugs eventually.

Do you have any advice for me?
 

Online nctnico

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2020, 07:55:00 pm »
Buy neither. The Keysight is too expensive for the features it offers and Rigol takes years to finish the firmware.
Look at other scopes like the GW Instek GDS-2000E series, MicSig STO1000 series or the Siglent SDS2000X+&#$ (don't know the post-fix 'du jour' but Tautech will tell you for sure) series.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online tautech

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2020, 08:10:24 pm »
I have about $1200 max to blow on an oscilloscope.

Do you have any advice for me?
Certainly as Nico says you need consider the SDS2000X Plus series although they are just above you budget.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/

My SDS2104X Plus is stuck in the NZ lockdown on the other side of Auckland with Defpom who's just just done a quick video of it and a more in depth one to come later this week.
The link to watch it is in the first post in the above thread.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 
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Offline thm_w

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2020, 08:43:39 pm »
What bugs are you *actually* concerned about? The major one I can think of is lack of proper hi-res.
What is the main use? Low noise analog, high speed digital?

 
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Offline stafil

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2020, 09:04:48 pm »
What bugs are you *actually* concerned about? The major one I can think of is lack of proper hi-res.
What is the main use? Low noise analog, high speed digital?

Not one bug specific. Just reading through https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/review-rigol-mso5000-tests-bugs-questions/

My use is very casual. Neither low noise analog or high speed digital. Maybe some SPI decoding.
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2020, 09:07:06 pm »
My use is very casual. Neither low noise analog or high speed digital. Maybe some SPI decoding.

Get a $5 clone logic analyzer (~20MHz) or a $50 dslogic (~200MHz), depending on the max SPI speed.
 
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Offline stafil

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2020, 10:06:53 pm »
My use is very casual. Neither low noise analog or high speed digital. Maybe some SPI decoding.

Get a $5 clone logic analyzer (~20MHz) or a $50 dslogic (~200MHz), depending on the max SPI speed.

The DSLogic looks pretty cool! I don't see a model at $50, but nevertheless great pointer, thanks!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 11:13:58 pm by stafil »
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2020, 10:21:01 pm »
I have the MSO5074, I like it and there are no bugs that I have come across that stop me doing tests with it.  The bode plot is a missing feature that's supposed to come with a new firmware update.  If you buy it before the end of this month (March), Rigol will give you all the decoder and AWG features for free.  It can also be hacked up to 350 MHz fairly easily.

The logic analyzer probes that are made by Rigol for the MSO5000 are overpriced ($400), I've designed and built much cheaper ones that are fully described in this thread.

I own quite a bit of Rigol gear but I have no financial incentive to suggest you buy a Rigol.
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer
 
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Offline NoisyBoy

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2020, 05:51:47 pm »
I do not use the Rigol as a LA, but if your interest is in SPI decoding, Dave's video "MSO5000 Bug Bonanza" showed specific bugs related to the simplest SPI decoding, unfortunately there was no follow-up videos as to the current state.  You need to check this before buying.

I don't know if that was ever fixed in the current firmware, perhaps other users can chime in.

My feeling is Rigol has decent hardware, but firmware support responsiveness is definitely ranked in the lower tier of the B-Brands (based specifically on my experience with the MSO5000 in the last year).  So while the Rigol has potential for more sophisticated uses, if your use case is as you described, Keysight is by far the better supported brand of the two, especially when it comes to post-sale services. 

I would agree with Gandalf_Sr, the LA probe in the Rigol is overpriced relative to what you get.  You should definitely look into alternatives if you decided to go with the Rigol.
 
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Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2020, 09:41:38 pm »
That video was made in Nov 2018 when the MSO5000 first came out, can anyone specifically state that there are SPI decode issues still?
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer
 
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Offline NoisyBoy

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2020, 09:57:47 pm »
Agreed, that’s why it is good to verify since SPI is in his use case, I have not heard anything to the effect that it has been fixed. Hopefully it is done given how long it has been.
 
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Offline TK

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2020, 11:07:21 pm »
I tested SPI on my MSO5074 back in May 2019 before selling it and it seemed to work fine:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/impressive-keysight-1000x-series-(edux1002g-modded)-spi-triggering-rate/msg2449452/#msg2449452

MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A (consider getting the G model): it all depends on your needs.  The MSO5074 offers a lot for the money, if you hack it and actually use all the features.  I am biased towards the KS... I sold mine (EDUX1002G-hacked to DSOX1202G) to test the MSO5074 and I didn't like it, so I switched back to the EDUX1052A and in the process of doing the HW mods to convert it to DSOX1202G
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 11:16:24 pm by TK »
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2020, 11:26:55 pm »
Buy neither. The Keysight is too expensive for the features it offers and Rigol takes years to finish the firmware.
Look at other scopes like the GW Instek GDS-2000E series, MicSig STO1000 series or the Siglent SDS2000X+&#$ (don't know the post-fix 'du jour' but Tautech will tell you for sure) series.
Why those oscilloscopes and not others? It seems the original picks were very decent and popular ones. The Rigol isn't perfect but it's ridiculously capable. If you don't mind a few rough edges it's silly value for money. The Keysight is pretty much the opposite and is a very well rounded, pleasant to use machine. As you say it probably doesn't offer the most features for the money but good tools never really do. It'll still do a fair bit though.

Blending other brands into your recommendations is a neat move, but we still see what you're doing.  ;)
 
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Offline Caliaxy

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2020, 12:39:15 am »
If you choose the Keysight, I'd also suggest getting the G version (DSOX1204G), which comes with a built-in waveform generator (you'll figure soon you need one anyways) and frequency response analysis software (Bode plot, which only works with the internal generator). Also, keep in mind that unlike the Rigol, Keysight DSOX1204 is not hackable (for now...) and the software upgrades (notably increasing the bandwidth from 70 MHz to 200 MHz) are quite expensive. Good thing they offer the serial protocol decoding for free now...

Rigol MSO5074 looks amazing on paper, and hackable to higher specs (or so people here say). If you are adventurous...
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2020, 12:58:40 am »
If you choose the Keysight, I'd also suggest getting the G version (DSOX1204G), which comes with a built-in waveform generator (you'll figure soon you need one anyways) and frequency response analysis software (Bode plot, which only works with the internal generator). Also, keep in mind that unlike the Rigol, Keysight DSOX1204 is not hackable (for now...) and the software upgrades (notably increasing the bandwidth from 70 MHz to 200 MHz) are quite expensive. Good thing they offer the serial protocol decoding for free now...

Rigol MSO5074 looks amazing on paper, and hackable to higher specs (or so people here say). If you are adventurous...
It seems the Keysights can be modded. Check the link three posts up in TK's message.
 
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Online 2N3055

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2020, 01:12:27 am »
If you choose the Keysight, I'd also suggest getting the G version (DSOX1204G), which comes with a built-in waveform generator (you'll figure soon you need one anyways) and frequency response analysis software (Bode plot, which only works with the internal generator). Also, keep in mind that unlike the Rigol, Keysight DSOX1204 is not hackable (for now...) and the software upgrades (notably increasing the bandwidth from 70 MHz to 200 MHz) are quite expensive. Good thing they offer the serial protocol decoding for free now...

Rigol MSO5074 looks amazing on paper, and hackable to higher specs (or so people here say). If you are adventurous...
It seems the Keysights can be modded. Check the link three posts up in TK's message.
No he's talking about 2ch version. AFAIK 4 ch one is not hacked yet
 
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Offline TK

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2020, 01:15:38 am »
If you don't need 4 channels and work mostly with digital circuits, then it is better to spend less money on the scope (i.e. go for the DSOX1202G) and get yourself a logic analyzer.  The DSOX1202G has 2 analog channels + 1 digital channel.  You can decode SPI using CLK, DATA (MOSI or MISO) and CS.  If you select CS timeout, then you only use 2 channels.  The external digital input can be used for CLK, DATA or CS.

The new 1200X series has double sample memory (2Mpts), double waveform updates per second (200,000 wfm/s), free serial decoding (if purchased after March 1st, 2020).  Lots of improvements for the same price or less
 
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Offline TK

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2020, 01:21:18 am »
If you choose the Keysight, I'd also suggest getting the G version (DSOX1204G), which comes with a built-in waveform generator (you'll figure soon you need one anyways) and frequency response analysis software (Bode plot, which only works with the internal generator). Also, keep in mind that unlike the Rigol, Keysight DSOX1204 is not hackable (for now...) and the software upgrades (notably increasing the bandwidth from 70 MHz to 200 MHz) are quite expensive. Good thing they offer the serial protocol decoding for free now...

Rigol MSO5074 looks amazing on paper, and hackable to higher specs (or so people here say). If you are adventurous...
It seems the Keysights can be modded. Check the link three posts up in TK's message.
No he's talking about 2ch version. AFAIK 4 ch one is not hacked yet
I am modding the 2 channel EDU1052A.  Now that serial decoding is included, the only option to hack on the DSOX models is the BW upgrade (100MHz and 200MHz).  The only known firmware hack was made by FERCSA for the Windows CE based scopes.  It looks like Keysight recompiled the same infiniivision launcher application on Linux, as I found the same LOST (TV series) Easter Egg on the new scopes.  But so far, the Linux based firmware has not been hacked.
 
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Offline TK

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2020, 01:23:14 am »
Rigol offers 30-day return policy... no return on Keysight unless you pay 15% restocking fee.
 
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Offline stafil

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2020, 03:05:59 am »
Thanks a lot everyone! Sounds like at my level and for my use I cannot go wrong with either of them. In the worst case that I am desperate for an SPI decoder I will go with a PC logic analyzer.
 

Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2020, 08:24:55 am »
I think It will be easy to find someone to take a picture using SPI serial decode on MSO5000. Gandalf_Sr is using his scope every day to debug his very clever logical probe project  8)
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2020, 11:14:03 am »
Thanks a lot everyone! Sounds like at my level and for my use I cannot go wrong with either of them. In the worst case that I am desperate for an SPI decoder I will go with a PC logic analyzer.
I don't quite see the logic of that. Why would you spend money on a scope which has known limitations AND spend more money on top of that to make up for the defects? It is not like there are no viable alternatives.

I think it will be a very interesting study into social psychology to understand why people buy oscilloscopes with unfinished firmware. Is it to belong to a group with people who are in the same boat waiting and anticipating new firmware? Cheering and celebrating everytime a new firmware gets released; anxious to see what got fixed and what hasn't when the manufacturer throws a bone?
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline jemangedeslolos

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2020, 11:38:48 am »
Thanks a lot everyone! Sounds like at my level and for my use I cannot go wrong with either of them. In the worst case that I am desperate for an SPI decoder I will go with a PC logic analyzer.
I don't quite see the logic of that. Why would you spend money on a scope which has known limitations AND spend more money on top of that to make up for the defects? It is not like there are no viable alternatives.

I think it will be a very interesting study into social psychology to understand why people buy oscilloscopes with unfinished firmware. Is it to belong to a group with people who are in the same boat waiting and anticipating new firmware? Cheering and celebrating everytime a new firmware gets released; anxious to see what got fixed and what hasn't when the manufacturer throws a bone?

What bug makes the MSO5000 unusable or painful to use ? I'm listening  :popcorn:

There are a lot of bugs that were reported during the market introduction....most have been fixed and there are bugs and bugs....
At least, given the tons of Rigol scope sold, the bugs are well documented....And that is a great feature ( like well documented errata for MCU for example )
Since R&S made affordable scope, there are obviously more people who buy them and therefore more people who use them with different logics or scenarios...and report bugs on this forum.

Maybe Gw instek or Micsig have better firmware....but maybe, for look at something everyday, it is nice to have a 9inch touchdisplay with tons of memory and all the great feature the MSO5000 offer.
Unless you think the thousands of people who buy this are stupid because it's not your choice ?
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2020, 02:15:22 pm »
I don't quite see the logic of that. Why would you spend money on a scope which has known limitations AND spend more money on top of that to make up for the defects? It is not like there are no viable alternatives.

I think it will be a very interesting study into social psychology to understand why people buy oscilloscopes with unfinished firmware. Is it to belong to a group with people who are in the same boat waiting and anticipating new firmware? Cheering and celebrating everytime a new firmware gets released; anxious to see what got fixed and what hasn't when the manufacturer throws a bone?
Unless it's an experience breaking bug, what an oscilloscope can do is more important than what it can't. No oscilloscope or tool does everything right, so it's always a matter of picking your poison. The MSO5000 apparently does a lot right. Suggesting people aren't thinking for themselves is a bit insulting and also hilarious in the context of continually suggesting the same brand.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 02:21:38 pm by Mr. Scram »
 
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Offline luma

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Re: MSO5074 vs DSOX1204A
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2020, 05:40:14 pm »
I think it will be a very interesting study into social psychology to understand why people buy oscilloscopes with unfinished firmware. Is it to belong to a group with people who are in the same boat waiting and anticipating new firmware? Cheering and celebrating everytime a new firmware gets released; anxious to see what got fixed and what hasn't when the manufacturer throws a bone?

I wonder about the psychology of people who have such fervent opinions about test equipment they don't own...

I've said it elsewhere but feel obligated to repeat myself: I bought an MSO5074 shortly after launch, unlocked it to 450+ MHz, have been using it regularly since, and haven't encountered any bugs.  I remain convinced that I got more scope per $ than I could have with any of the other available options at the time of purchase.  Were I to be faced with the decision again today, I'd buy it again.

Those of us working with the device don't spend much of our day complaining about it online.
 
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