Author Topic: Multimeter and soldering iron advice (Read 13000 times)

SuperGiachi · « **on:** January 09, 2018, 01:59:36 pm »

Hi, i'm getting in the electronics world, and want to get myself a nice multimeter. I don't want a cheap crappy one, i want something that will last and has all the safety faetures needed. I looked at Keysight's lineup, and i'm interested in their U1230 series. The base model(U1231A) unfortunately doesn't have current measuring, while the more expensive U1232A has current measuring. I think the U1232A would be a good choice, because current measuring is a feature I'd want to have. Now, is there a comparable Fluke meter at this price point? I would like to stay under 200€. Is that Keysight a good choice? Do i need the higher end model(U1233A)?
For soldering irons, i took a look at JBC's lineup of irons(not stations) and i noticed that the gas model they have might be a cood choice because it has adjustable power and a "mini heatgun" mode too. That would save me some money since i won't be buying a dedicated heatgun. is that mini heatgun enough for IC soldering/desoldering? It is cheaper than the adjustable electric model too. Is this iron a good choice for electronics? Which tips do I need?
Thanks in advance!

lem_ix · « **Reply #1 on:** January 09, 2018, 02:11:44 pm »

You didn't say what exactly you want to do so I'll just talk in general. Skip the Fluke/Keysight expensive meters. You could go for a brymen 235 if you intend to play around with mains. Even something like a Sanwa CD771 would do for ~55 euro. Not sure about the availability of hakko FX-888D in Itally, I'd check for that instead. For electronics a cheap used scope would teach you more then an expensive dmm.

Fungus · « **Reply #2 on:** January 09, 2018, 03:11:54 pm »

Quote from: SuperGiachi on January 09, 2018, 01:59:36 pm

Hi, i'm getting in the electronics world, and want to get myself a nice multimeter. I don't want a cheap crappy one, i want something that will last and has all the safety faetures needed. I looked at Keysight's lineup, and i'm interested in their U1230 series. The base model(U1231A) unfortunately doesn't have current measuring, while the more expensive U1232A has current measuring. I think the U1232A would be a good choice, because current measuring is a feature I'd want to have. Now, is there a comparable Fluke meter at this price point? I would like to stay under 200€. Is that Keysight a good choice? Do i need the higher end model(U1233A)?

Watch Keysights turn to dust (literally) over in the 'robustness' thread. They don't do well in joe's tests, either electronically or mechanically.

(You don't need to watch all of the second video to get the story. At the start of the video there's a nice clicky sound as the switch turns. After a couple of seconds the video cuts to somewhere near the end of the test and all that's left of the clicks is a dirty grinding sound...

)

Thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/

Look for messages around the same dates as those videos were uploaded, around last November I think

Fungus · « **Reply #3 on:** January 09, 2018, 03:34:50 pm »

Quote from: SuperGiachi on January 09, 2018, 01:59:36 pm

Now, is there a comparable Fluke meter at this price point?

Yes. The Fluke 17B+ did well in joe's electrical testing and survived the mechanical test with almost no signs of wear. It's fully CAT rated and has fairly decent feature set for EE work.

RayRay · « **Reply #4 on:** January 09, 2018, 03:44:45 pm »

If you ask me, you're going overboard with this!
For a beginner (and even for a pro for that matter) there's really no need to invest large amounts of money over big brands.
Now, to be product specific, here are my recommendations:

Multimeter - You've got the ANENG AN8009 (on Banggood) for $18.99, I wouldn't use it for mains or anything, but purely for electronics, it's a great beginners meter! Or if you want something with better input protection, you've got the UNI-T UT139C for $40 (on fasttech).
There's also the much more expensive Brymen BM235 multimeter, but I'd say that'd be over the top.

Multimeter Silicone Test leads - You've got these two at affordable prices:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Fieldpiece-ADLS2-Deluxe-Silicone-Test-Leads-Gold-plated-probe/262456124890
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brymen-Silicone-Gold-Plated-Test-Leads-Probes-for-Multimeters-CAT-IV-1000V/171162377470

Soldering Station - On the affordable range, there's the various T12 compatible stations, also the TS100 soldering iron, and the HAKKO FX-888D station.

Heat Gun/Hot Air Station - You could buy an adjustable (or dual temperature) heat gun for $20-30, however, it'd be big and not the most comfy to work with for electronics use. You'd be best getting one of the 858D/8858 hot air stations for $55-70

witnessmenow · « **Reply #5 on:** January 09, 2018, 03:45:42 pm »

I really like my TS100 soldering iron, It's about half the price of the Hakko in Europe, it heats up super fast and it also turns off if you forget about it

MarkoReps has a good video on it:

Fungus · « **Reply #6 on:** January 09, 2018, 04:05:06 pm »

Quote from: RayRay on January 09, 2018, 03:44:45 pm

If you ask me, you're going overboard with this!
For a beginner (and even for a pro for that matter) there's really no need to invest large amounts of money over big brands.

I agree, but he wants a 'nice' meter.

My 2 cents:

a) One meter isn't enough for anybody.
b) A meter that does everything is expensive but two meters that cover all your needs can be quite cheap.

eg. A $42 Fluke 101 for "safety" needs plus one of those cheap Chinese meters as a) A second meter, and b) For the things the 101 doesn't do, eg. current.

Both together will cost you about $65, delivered.

FWIW: My favorite cheapo Chinese meter is the ANENG AN860B+, YMMV.

SuperGiachi · « **Reply #7 on:** January 09, 2018, 04:22:49 pm »

Thanks for the very quick and detailed replies!
The reason why i loooked into expensive meters is that i had very bad experiences with cheap meters and irons. I had a 10€ meter that was faulty the first time I used it(display) and a soldering iron that worked for like a month and then stopped melting solder. Is there any reason to go for a 150-200€ meter or is it just a waste of money?
For the soldering statiom, i have an hard time finding those 50€ models here in Italy. Is the 60€ gas iron from JBC not appropriate or not worth it?
I usually make circuits and repair motherboards

Mr. Scram · « **Reply #8 on:** January 09, 2018, 04:27:52 pm »

Quote from: Fungus on January 09, 2018, 03:11:54 pm

Watch Keysights turn to dust (literally) over in the 'robustness' thread. They don't do well in joe's tests, either electronically or mechanically.

(You don't need to watch all of the second video to get the story. At the start of the video there's a nice clicky sound as the switch turns. After a couple of seconds the video cuts to somewhere near the end of the test and all that's left of the clicks is a dirty grinding sound... )

Thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/

Look for messages around the same dates as those videos were uploaded, around last November I think

While Joe's tests are welcome and valuable information, I don't think they're representative of what a meter typically encounters in the field.

The 17B+ isn't a true RMS meter, which I wouldn't recommend for a beginner. Something like a Brymen BM257S has a lot of nice features that are useful and a bargraph and optional datalogging, which the BM235 lacks. SuperGiachi is in the EU, which means the Brymens can be had cheap, while Fluke and Keysight are relatively expensive.

Mr. Scram · « **Reply #9 on:** January 09, 2018, 04:31:19 pm »

I don't agree with the advice to go with a cheap Chinese meter. A beginner needs proper protection and safety. If you're more experienced, you know where to be careful and where you can be more lax, but a beginner doesn't know what the pitfalls are yet.

Considering SuperGiachi states he can afford a proper meter, I don't see any reason to recommend anything that's not properly safe.

Fungus · « **Reply #10 on:** January 09, 2018, 04:38:07 pm »

Quote from: SuperGiachi on January 09, 2018, 04:22:49 pm

Is there any reason to go for a 150-200€ meter or is it just a waste of money?

No more of a waste than a $50,000 car. If you've got $50,000 to spare and want a nice car to go shopping then go for it.

Quote from: SuperGiachi on January 09, 2018, 04:22:49 pm

I had a 10€ meter that was faulty the first time I used it(display)

OTOH you can go too cheap. Some meters aren't worth having at any price.

(including some much more expensive ones)

Fungus · « **Reply #11 on:** January 09, 2018, 04:43:50 pm »

Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 09, 2018, 04:27:52 pm

The 17B+ isn't a true RMS meter, which I wouldn't recommend for a beginner.

I almost never measure AC voltages, YMMV.

Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 09, 2018, 04:31:19 pm

I don't agree with the advice to go with a cheap Chinese meter. A beginner needs proper protection and safety.

That's why I said to get a Fluke 101 as a primary meter and a cheapo meter as secondary.

lem_ix · « **Reply #12 on:** January 09, 2018, 04:44:05 pm »

I wouldn't get a gas iron as my main iron. To carry around in the toolbox maybe, tho I'd rather have a cord one. Chinese hot air stations are super cheap if you need one. Batterfly store has the Hakko.

Mr. Scram · « **Reply #13 on:** January 09, 2018, 04:51:26 pm »

Quote from: Fungus on January 09, 2018, 04:43:50 pm

I almost never measure AC voltages, YMMV.

That's why I said to get a Fluke 101 as a primary meter and a cheapo meter as secondary.

If you have a signal generator or work with sound signals there's plenty of AC signals to be measured. It's also something that can catch out a beginner and therefore should not be part of a beginner meter.

I can't quite agree with having a proper primary meter and a cheap secondary one. You need to be very concious when you use which one and in what cases you can't and a beginner needs a robust meter that always works. Having a second meter isn't a bad idea, but not at the cost of hampering the first one. Get one solid meter, then consider a second. For a 200 euro budget, you could buy a BM257S and a BM235. You'd have two very solid and reliable meters, though I don't necessarily insist on going with Brymen.

SuperGiachi · « **Reply #14 on:** January 09, 2018, 04:57:33 pm »

Why wouldn't you go with a gas iron as your main iron? For the refill time?

Fungus · « **Reply #15 on:** January 09, 2018, 04:58:14 pm »

Quote from: Mr. Scram on January 09, 2018, 04:51:26 pm

If you have a signal generator or work with sound signals there's plenty of AC signals to be measured. It's also something that can catch out a beginner and therefore should not be part of a beginner meter.

a) Is a very accurate TRMS value really so important? Signal generators output sine waves too.
b) Be careful: Many TRMS meters aren't as accurate as you think they are as the frequency rises (not even at 'low' audio frequencies).
c) An oscilloscope is a 1000x better tool for that. The 140 bucks you just saved on your multimeters is 40% of the price of a new oscilloscope...

Fungus · « **Reply #16 on:** January 09, 2018, 05:00:23 pm »

Quote from: SuperGiachi on January 09, 2018, 04:57:33 pm

Why wouldn't you go with a gas iron as your main iron? For the refill time?

YMMV but all the ones I've owned get too hot and burn up the tips in no time.

This consigns them to toolbox use only.

Plus, yeah... you don't want to be messing around "refilling" something that's on your bench.

SuperGiachi · « **Reply #17 on:** January 09, 2018, 05:05:34 pm »

Ok thanks to all
What kind of tips do you recommend getting? Would a JBC electric temperature controlled iron be better that chinese stations like hakko etc?
What alloy do you usually use?

IanB · « **Reply #18 on:** January 09, 2018, 05:13:56 pm »

Quote from: SuperGiachi on January 09, 2018, 04:57:33 pm

Why wouldn't you go with a gas iron as your main iron? For the refill time?

Gas irons don't have temperature control. The better quality electrical irons have a temperature sensor and adjust the power according to the heat load on the tip in order to keep the temperature close to what you set it at.

Also electrical irons can be turned on and off at the flick of a switch, and the more expensive ones have auto-off and auto-standby features. Gas irons are fiddly to light and switch off again. They are good for occasional jobs out in the field, but not suitable for daily use on the bench.

DaJMasta · « **Reply #19 on:** January 09, 2018, 05:15:42 pm »

Quote from: SuperGiachi on January 09, 2018, 05:05:34 pm

Ok thanks to all
What kind of tips do you recommend getting? Would a JBC electric temperature controlled iron be better that chinese stations like hakko etc?
What alloy do you usually use?

Hakko is a Japanese company and is one of the leaders in the soldering iron business - and one of the well known good brands in the lower price brackets. If you're asking about solder alloys, 60/40 is perfectly usable, but 63/37 is recommended by many because it's almost the same price and has an advantage when initially cooling. Make sure it's small (usually 0.4mm is recommended, but 0.8mm or smaller should do), and make sure there's a rosin core (it's extremely rare to find an electronics solder without it or something comparable). Also worth picking up a flux pen or a bit of paste or gel flux, it helps you make good connections quickly.

I wouldn't cheap out too much on the multimeter, but these things have been evaluated and reevaluated all over this forum, search around a bit and check the main threads (one lists DMMs in a spreadsheet, one is robustness testing) to get an idea for what's out there and what sort of meters would be a good choice.

IanB · « **Reply #20 on:** January 09, 2018, 05:19:32 pm »

Quote from: SuperGiachi on January 09, 2018, 04:22:49 pm

The reason why i loooked into expensive meters is that i had very bad experiences with cheap meters and irons. I had a 10€ meter that was faulty the first time I used it(display)

There is inexpensive and then there is too cheap. I would not buy an expensive meter as your first meter since you will very likely end up buying a second meter after you discover the things you don't like about the first meter. So it would be better to pick a good, but not too expensive meter as a starting point given that you are certain to be buying a second meter later on.

RayRay · « **Reply #21 on:** January 09, 2018, 05:34:53 pm »

Quote from: SuperGiachi on January 09, 2018, 04:22:49 pm

Thanks for the very quick and detailed replies!
The reason why i loooked into expensive meters is that i had very bad experiences with cheap meters and irons. I had a 10€ meter that was faulty the first time I used it(display) and a soldering iron that worked for like a month and then stopped melting solder. Is there any reason to go for a 150-200€ meter or is it just a waste of money?
For the soldering statiom, i have an hard time finding those 50€ models here in Italy. Is the 60€ gas iron from JBC not appropriate or not worth it?
I usually make circuits and repair motherboards

nctnico · « **Reply #22 on:** January 09, 2018, 06:04:08 pm »

Quote from: SuperGiachi on January 09, 2018, 05:05:34 pm

Ok thanks to all
What kind of tips do you recommend getting? Would a JBC electric temperature controlled iron be better that chinese stations like hakko etc?
What alloy do you usually use?

I'd go for Ersa. According to my own experience the tips last much longer than JBC's. Stay away from cheap Chinese soldering iron because the tips are likely crap. Believe it or not but the quality of the tips make or break a soldering iron.

Hot air is also nice to have. So far I have no complaints about the Atten 858D+ I have but I must admit I have not used different hot air stations so I don't know what I'm missing there. OTOH hot air is hot air so there is not much to screw up.

Regarding the DMM: it depends on what you want to do with it. Have you considered getting a bench DMM so you don't have to change batteries all the time? I have a Keysight 34461A and two VC8145s. The VC8145s are my daily use DMMs for low voltage stuff (electronics development). The VC8145 are relatively cheap (around 160 euro from Ebay), start quickly and work well. For portable and mains use I have a Keysight U1241B.

Fungus · « **Reply #23 on:** January 09, 2018, 06:09:53 pm »

nb. A lot is made of 100.0000% safety in these forums but remember that even those Chinese meters mentioned here (AN860B+/AN8008) have some protection. A realistic rating for them might be CAT II 300V which is "household mains AC, away from the distribution panel", ie. very very unlikely to do anything dangerous on the average hobby electronics workbench.

I'd get something safer if I was poking at AC mains on a daily basis but I don't agree that they pose much danger as a hobbyist's secondary meter (or even as a primary meter if you mostly poke at 5V Arduinos, etc).

(so long as your 'hobby' doesn't involve big voltage multipliers with huge capacitor banks)

Quote from: DaJMasta on January 09, 2018, 05:15:42 pm

Hakko is a Japanese company and is one of the leaders in the soldering iron business

Yep. You can consider yourself fortunate if you own a Hakko.

SuperGiachi · « **Reply #24 on:** January 09, 2018, 06:26:02 pm »

Which kind of hakko would you reccomend?


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Author Topic: Multimeter and soldering iron advice (Read 13000 times)

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