Author Topic: My first multimeter,but which one ?  (Read 22660 times)

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Offline Wolfram.Chrome

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My first multimeter,but which one ?
« on: January 03, 2016, 07:42:23 am »
As soon i will buy my first multimeter for general purpose in electronics.
I will build power supply,radio bugs,dosimeters,amplifiers etc.
I need an multimeter with deep precision ,something capable to measure mV's,mA's,µA's etc.
I'm really undecided over this DMM's here :
Fluke 87V
*************
HIOKI DT 4256
*************
Brymen 86x.
**************
For example i really like fluke 87 v ,but i think this one will be very capricious,because i will be unable to calibrate it by my self,where i live is impossible to go in some kind of this center-service and do the calibration and others kind of stuff like this.
Fluke is a very great DMM,but it doesn't have metal thread inserts inside the plastic components where screws are inserted for the most part.
Seems like a stupid design oversight to me from a benchmark DMM and of Fluke quality.?
*********************************************************************************
Hioki 4256 is a very nice multimeter ,very well done with build quality ,but the precision  for this range of price make me a little bit sad about this DMM,also because i don't like when something like this is complicated to mantain like fluke 87v too.
*********************************************************************************
Brymen 86x seems to be an great candidate for my pocket :D ,but also here im not sure,because i still don't know if is possible to mantain,calibrate it by my self,i dont know if this multimeter is really good like the others 2 (hioki/fluke) because i never heard something before about this brand.
Please help me to choose some DMM also if it will be of another brand.
Thanks to all.
 :-DMM
« Last Edit: May 01, 2016, 12:12:40 am by Wolfram.Chrome »
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2016, 08:20:42 am »
If this is your first DMM, I can only assume you don't have calibration equipment. What makes you think you can calibrate any meter properly? Pick a meter that you like and don't worry about the calibration issue. You can't do it anyway.
 

Online tautech

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2016, 08:52:18 am »
If this is your first DMM, I can only assume you don't have calibration equipment. What makes you think you can calibrate any meter properly? Pick a meter that you like and don't worry about the calibration issue. You can't do it anyway.
LOL Lightages, I'd heard of this before I knew anything about DMM's and I know shite all.
http://www.voltagestandard.com/DMMCheck_Plus.html
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Offline Lightages

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2016, 09:08:03 am »
The DMM Check is a great tool, for doing a what? A check, a sanity check, of the function of your meter. It will not it any way help you do a calibration of any of the meters he listed. They need voltages in DC and AC, resistor values, current sources in AC and DC, capacitors, etc, all in values specific to the different models.

For example, the Brymen BM869s needs 48 specific values at accuracy ten times the accuracy of the ranges being calibrated.
 
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Online EEVblog

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2016, 09:19:01 am »
LOL Lightages, I'd heard of this before I knew anything about DMM's and I know shite all.
http://www.voltagestandard.com/DMMCheck_Plus.html

The DMMcheck is as it's name describes, a "check" for your DMM. It should not be used to "calibrate" your meter.
To properly explain why requires knowledge of metrology.
By far the best way the average person can keep track of the accuracy and hence "calibration" of their meter is to get two meters and regularly check them against each other periodically.
If you have to actually adjust your meter to make it "calibrated", then you've likely got a crap quality meter that is likely not worthy of being "calibrated" to begin with. i.e. it's a meter that drifts, and that's a bad thing.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 09:20:55 am by EEVblog »
 

Online TiN

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2016, 09:23:44 am »
Wolfram.Chrome
The quicker you forget about calibrating your DMM, the better it will be ;) Trust me.
Proper calibration of even 4.5 digit meter like F87V to it's accuracies would need few thousands of $$$ in calibration sources and deep understanding of calibration procedures and requirements.

Fluke is nice meter, but not that capable on low mV/uA ranges. If you want max resolution go with Brymen, if you like robust and high safety design - Fluke.
I have 87V, and it's often my meter to go if need just a quick check.

For more precision work (if you even will even need anything more than 4.5 digits actually), you can jump in second-hand market for some used but checked 34401A or Keithley 2000. With some patience, you can get good working ones for 200-250$.
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Offline Wolfram.Chrome

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2016, 09:55:47 am »
Wolfram.Chrome
The quicker you forget about calibrating your DMM, the better it will be ;) Trust me.
Proper calibration of even 4.5 digit meter like F87V to it's accuracies would need few thousands of $$$ in calibration sources and deep understanding of calibration procedures and requirements.

Fluke is nice meter, but not that capable on low mV/uA ranges. If you want max resolution go with Brymen, if you like robust and high safety design - Fluke.
I have 87V, and it's often my meter to go if need just a quick check.

For more precision work (if you even will even need anything more than 4.5 digits actually), you can jump in second-hand market for some used but checked 34401A or Keithley 2000. With some patience, you can get good working ones for 200-250$.

Thanks you my dear friend from Ukraine :)
I will think about brymen ,because actually i need an MULTIMETER,so after it in the future i will get some more serious voltmeter,ampermeter like kenthley.
:)
Thanks you again,but i still have an question.
If an simple owner of he's DMM can't bring back the calibration,this mean that after 2 or maybe also 3 years he must to trash the DMM which he's own or choose to spend a lot of $$$ for official calibration service ?
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2016, 10:11:35 am »
If an simple owner of he's DMM can't bring back the calibration,this mean that after 2 or maybe also 3 years he must to trash the DMM which he's own or choose to spend a lot of $$$ for official calibration service ?

You worry too much. It's very unlikely they will drift, they're designed not to. Most people will never see any drift at all of a good multimeter.

You normally only need calibration if you make devices that need a legal certification or something.
 
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Online TiN

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2016, 10:12:50 am »
Why would you think so? While long-term accuracy of DMM (as well as any other measurement device) is degrading, rate of this effect usually is so small, that you would hardly find any difference even 5 years after. Of course if you abuse meter, it could affect accuracy more, but given usual usage for DIY electronics engineer, specially low-voltage/low-power stuff you can ignore long-term effects.

Fluke I have is already 8 years old, and still spot on at anything I throw at it. Never calibrated it.
It's often opposite direction, as meters from respectable vendors, like Fluke, HP/Agilent/K, Brymen are calibrated better than their listed specs are, giving you enough headroom for possible drift and long-term accuracy for many years. Also after couple first years internal references and resistors in meters become more stable (as initial stress from manufacturing/soldering get relaxed) and more stable than fresh instrument. It's not rare to have people buying 20-year old bench DMM from ebay and having it perform better than brand-new instrument of same grade/spec.

So no, you don't need usually calibration at all unless something goes wrong and your meter need repair (in which case you will need another meters, proper signal sources anyway to even test it).

Don't read and apply stuff from countless volt-nut threads about hi-end meters, which are often discussed here and elsewhere. Hand-held DMMs and bench precision DMMs are different beasts, with different specs and requirements. Insane people there usually hunting after 0.0001% accuracy levels and such  :bullshit: :popcorn:
« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 10:20:21 am by TiN »
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Offline Wolfram.Chrome

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2016, 10:42:05 am »
Why would you think so? While long-term accuracy of DMM (as well as any other measurement device) is degrading, rate of this effect usually is so small, that you would hardly find any difference even 5 years after. Of course if you abuse meter, it could affect accuracy more, but given usual usage for DIY electronics engineer, specially low-voltage/low-power stuff you can ignore long-term effects.

Fluke I have is already 8 years old, and still spot on at anything I throw at it. Never calibrated it.
It's often opposite direction, as meters from respectable vendors, like Fluke, HP/Agilent/K, Brymen are calibrated better than their listed specs are, giving you enough headroom for possible drift and long-term accuracy for many years. Also after couple first years internal references and resistors in meters become more stable (as initial stress from manufacturing/soldering get relaxed) and more stable than fresh instrument. It's not rare to have people buying 20-year old bench DMM from ebay and having it perform better than brand-new instrument of same grade/spec.

So no, you don't need usually calibration at all unless something goes wrong and your meter need repair (in which case you will need another meters, proper signal sources anyway to even test it).

Don't read and apply stuff from countless volt-nut threads about hi-end meters, which are often discussed here and elsewhere. Hand-held DMMs and bench precision DMMs are different beasts, with different specs and requirements. Insane people there usually hunting after 0.0001% accuracy levels and such  :bullshit: :popcorn:

Thanks you too to share your awesome knowledge :)
By now im more relaxed and also more happy ,so at this point i will get brymen 869s then fluke 87V for better definition and accuracy.
Thanks :)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 11:27:24 am by Wolfram.Chrome »
 

Offline Smith

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2016, 11:26:03 am »
We have multiple 87's at work (all generations) and we never ever had one fail calibration. So calibration is not an issue unless you really want to do your best to blow up the meter.

I would recommend the Fluke 87V. Their great, except for the default AC amps range. They keep their value, you can get spare parts if needed, and they're reliable.
Trying is the first step towards failure
 

Offline Wolfram.Chrome

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2016, 11:36:26 am »
We have multiple 87's at work (all generations) and we never ever had one fail calibration. So calibration is not an issue unless you really want to do your best to blow up the meter.

I would recommend the Fluke 87V. Their great, except for the default AC amps range. They keep their value, you can get spare parts if needed, and they're reliable.

Man i haven't enough money for all the things i want  :'(
I need an DMM,soldering station,flux,sal amoniac,tin,i need other kind of tips for the iron,i need an scope i need Smart Tweezers ST5S,ESR meter too for transistors.
I can't handle all this stuff in one time ,so i must to be very carefull how im spending my money.
I must to buy the best at lower price as possible,it's hard but i must to done this,because no other alternative here :(
After you said about the fluke 87V im again indecided over brymen and fluke ,i like that model of fluke 87V,but as TiN said before brymen is the way if you want micro measurement and hi-res.
 
 

Offline fanOfeeDIY

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2016, 12:25:38 pm »
Hi Wolfram.Chrome,

Most of the time, the precision has too meanings. :)

One is the accuracy of the absolute value what DMM shows on the LCD.
Major brand DMM including Fluke, Hioki, Bryman which you have listed are calibration and adjusted way beyond what the spec defines on the datasheet before they are sold.
Only calibration is required in the aftermarket if you would like to know the value have not drifted for long term usage like years.
The most of the reason corporate users calibrate the test equipment is to have proof (to customers) that their measurement is in good condition.
I really do not feel regular users would need to calibrate the handheld DMM with the brands you listed for personal usage.
Most of the people do not calibrating Fluke 87V who is using for personal projects.
Because it is not so important for many people to prove that your DMM have not drifted. Since, it costs extra calibration fee, when those big brands are known to be stable.

Another one is resolution of the value what DMM shows on the LCD.
This is more important for personal electronic project.
This is mostly has high correlation with the spec of counts on the DMM too.
The 50000 counts DMM could show lower digits than 6000 one’s for measuring mV's,mA's,µA's etc. (87v could go up to 20,000 counts)

I have a feeling that you were mainly concerned about the second meaning.
Better resolution will provide you the good measurement on mV's,mA's,µA's.
Even you have paid for the calibrating fee every year; you cannot change or improve resolution of your DMM.

Also, when buying DMM, other aspects such as the speed of autorange and continuity test are also important.


 

Offline Wolfram.Chrome

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2016, 12:32:12 pm »
Hi Wolfram.Chrome,

Most of the time, the precision has too meanings. :)

One is the accuracy of the absolute value what DMM shows on the LCD.
Major brand DMM including Fluke, Hioki, Bryman which you have listed are calibration and adjusted way beyond what the spec defines on the datasheet before they are sold.
Only calibration is required in the aftermarket if you would like to know the value have not drifted for long term usage like years.
The most of the reason corporate users calibrate the test equipment is to have proof (to customers) that their measurement is in good condition.
I really do not feel regular users would need to calibrate the handheld DMM with the brands you listed for personal usage.
Most of the people do not calibrating Fluke 87V who is using for personal projects.
Because it is not so important for many people to prove that your DMM have not drifted. Since, it costs extra calibration fee, when those big brands are known to be stable.

Another one is resolution of the value what DMM shows on the LCD.
This is more important for personal electronic project.
This is mostly has high correlation with the spec of counts on the DMM too.
The 50000 counts DMM could show lower digits than 6000 one’s for measuring mV's,mA's,µA's etc. (87v could go up to 20,000 counts)

I have a feeling that you were mainly concerned about the second meaning.
Better resolution will provide you the good measurement on mV's,mA's,µA's.
Even you have paid for the calibrating fee every year; you cannot change or improve resolution of your DMM.

Also, when buying DMM, other aspects such as the speed of autorange and continuity test are also important.

Thanks you ,im learning again good stuff :)
 

Offline fanOfeeDIY

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2016, 01:46:16 pm »
I regret to say I kind of have all three of these. :)
(This is one of the bad influences after I joined reading eevblog forum, it is like disease keep make you feel to buy more DMMs. Please do not laugh) :)

Fluke 87V
HIOKI DT 4256
Sanwa PC7000 (I think inside is Brymen 86x)

This is my short impression.
The Fluke 87V is not cheap but the most rugged DMM among three and feel confident.
Could go up to 20,000 counts in hi-res mode, so I could measure down to 0.01ohm.

The HIOKI DT4256 is also not cheap but it the fastest to autorange and settle the value when measuring.
It is 6000 counts so it could only measure to 0.1ohm.

Sanwa PC7000 has 50,000 counts as a default feature so always able to measure down to 0.01ohm.
But is is the slowest until the value on LCD settles when measuring devices.

All three have extremely fast continuity testing speed. (not all is good like this)

I tend to pick HIOKI first on measuring because the measurement settles in quickest time.
It is good when you are in short temper. :)

But when I need more resolution, I choose 87V.

If I have to pick only one DMM when I was young among this three for my personal usage and have budget constraints, probably I will pick Brymen.
Because it has the most value for money.
And I would buy more expensive DMM when I get better earnings. :)

The Fluke was always something I wanted to have when I did not have money. :)
My first DMM was around 65 USD when I was in high school after saving money for long time. :)
Before I buy my own DMM, I always had to borrow the analog multi meter from my father.
It is my old good memories.
 

Offline Wolfram.Chrome

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2016, 02:06:48 pm »
I regret to say I kind of have all three of these. :)
(This is one of the bad influences after I joined reading eevblog forum, it is like disease keep make you feel to buy more DMMs. Please do not laugh) :)

Fluke 87V
HIOKI DT 4256
Sanwa PC7000 (I think inside is Brymen 86x)

This is my short impression.
The Fluke 87V is not cheap but the most rugged DMM among three and feel confident.
Could go up to 20,000 counts in hi-res mode, so I could measure down to 0.01ohm.

The HIOKI DT4256 is also not cheap but it the fastest to autorange and settle the value when measuring.
It is 6000 counts so it could only measure to 0.1ohm.

Sanwa PC7000 has 50,000 counts as a default feature so always able to measure down to 0.01ohm.
But is is the slowest until the value on LCD settles when measuring devices.

All three have extremely fast continuity testing speed. (not all is good like this)

I tend to pick HIOKI first on measuring because the measurement settles in quickest time.
It is good when you are in short temper. :)

But when I need more resolution, I choose 87V.

If I have to pick only one DMM when I was young among this three for my personal usage and have budget constraints, probably I will pick Brymen.
Because it has the most value for money.
And I would buy more expensive DMM when I get better earnings. :)

The Fluke was always something I wanted to have when I did not have money. :)
My first DMM was around 65 USD when I was in high school after saving money for long time. :)
Before I buy my own DMM, I always had to borrow the analog multi meter from my father.
It is my old good memories.

Hey man you are awesome :)
I like your mind and your stories ,did you have an youtube channel ?
i wish to check it out :)
 

Offline PedroDaGr8

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2016, 04:33:39 pm »
I regret to say I kind of have all three of these. :)
(This is one of the bad influences after I joined reading eevblog forum, it is like disease keep make you feel to buy more DMMs. Please do not laugh) :)

Fluke 87V
HIOKI DT 4256
Sanwa PC7000 (I think inside is Brymen 86x)

This is my short impression.
The Fluke 87V is not cheap but the most rugged DMM among three and feel confident.
Could go up to 20,000 counts in hi-res mode, so I could measure down to 0.01ohm.

The HIOKI DT4256 is also not cheap but it the fastest to autorange and settle the value when measuring.
It is 6000 counts so it could only measure to 0.1ohm.

Sanwa PC7000 has 50,000 counts as a default feature so always able to measure down to 0.01ohm.
But is is the slowest until the value on LCD settles when measuring devices.

All three have extremely fast continuity testing speed. (not all is good like this)

I tend to pick HIOKI first on measuring because the measurement settles in quickest time.
It is good when you are in short temper. :)

But when I need more resolution, I choose 87V.

If I have to pick only one DMM when I was young among this three for my personal usage and have budget constraints, probably I will pick Brymen.
Because it has the most value for money.
And I would buy more expensive DMM when I get better earnings. :)

The Fluke was always something I wanted to have when I did not have money. :)
My first DMM was around 65 USD when I was in high school after saving money for long time. :)
Before I buy my own DMM, I always had to borrow the analog multi meter from my father.
It is my old good memories.
The Sanwa does not appear to be a BM86x meter. It shares similar features and is Brymen made, but internally it is night and day different.
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
 

Offline Wolfram.Chrome

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2016, 05:33:15 pm »
/*The Sanwa does not appear to be a BM86x meter. It shares similar features and is Brymen made, but internally it is night and day different.*/


So the sanwa is made by Brymen ?
Or is bryman really made by sanwa ???
im confused.
 

Offline PedroDaGr8

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2016, 07:44:21 pm »
/*The Sanwa does not appear to be a BM86x meter. It shares similar features and is Brymen made, but internally it is night and day different.*/


So the sanwa is made by Brymen ?
Or is bryman really made by sanwa ???
im confused.
Like I said the Sanwa is made y Brymen but appears to be an older or cheaper make. Definitely not the same quality as the BM869S
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2016, 11:52:16 pm »
Review of it showing the internals and talks about the Brymen.   And he runs a KV test on the inputs.  :-+


How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 
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Offline Napalm2002

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2016, 04:03:50 am »
Anyone buying brymen in the USA?  any good place to get them? Kinda intriguing
 

Offline fanOfeeDIY

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2016, 12:59:23 pm »
Sanwa PC7000 has 50,000 counts as a default feature so always able to measure down to 0.01ohm.
But is is the slowest until the value on LCD settles when measuring devices.

I would like to rephrase above.

It is slower than the DT4256 or 87v but better than most of others, such as, 5ky have done a superb video on many $50 DMMs.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-$50-multimeter-shootout-15-dmms-compared/
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 01:03:18 pm by fanOfeeDIY »
 

Offline fanOfeeDIY

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2016, 01:01:41 pm »
I like your mind and your stories ,did you have an youtube channel ?
i wish to check it out :)

Nope, I have no video uploaded so far. :)

I might if I change my mind and have enough spare time, but thanks.
 

Offline fanOfeeDIY

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2016, 01:05:58 pm »
Anyone buying brymen in the USA?  any good place to get them? Kinda intriguing

I know Franky's have a great store selling Byrmen to US and others.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/franky's-sales-thread/
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 03:32:17 pm by fanOfeeDIY »
 

Offline fanOfeeDIY

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Re: My first multimeter,but which one ?
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2016, 01:10:44 pm »
I am very curious about EEVblog DM1 and DM2 (which is only in the excel file) at the Wytnucls’ chart. :)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-spreadsheet/
 


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