NanoVNA V3 (6GHz)

[Mechatrommer]

browsing nano vna 6ghz today... it's been a year since i mentioned it to OwO and he said it's under development... but today its already up in their official site https://nanorfe.com/nanovna-v3.html but not in production nor for sale yet... checking in tindie also zero.. but when i check aliexpress, man i guess its not long before entering madness stage... LibreVNA 6GHz now available at $399 (but poor noise floor > 3GHz compared to what is claimed in nanorfe site), the "other" NanoVNA 6GHz are also there just for $248, but unlike official NanoVNA V3 that claims 100kHz min limit, they are only down to 23MHz... so i suspect when the official version is up, there will be many more variants adding to the noise. if the $400 tag and 100dB noise up to 6GHz claim as in the official nanorfe site is true, then this is a worth time to wait for the official version of NanoVNA V3... to OwO, (given the reputation) please let us know when your V3 is up for sale asap  , fwiw.

[Mechatrommer]

according to OwO in https://groups.io/g/NanoVNAV3/topic/83921832#38

It depends how many people are interested. Once there is sufficient people on the waitlist the production can start, so the more people we get interested in this the faster it can be made available.

this sounds not too good. i've been waiting for eons. how long the waitlist will be filled up to acceptable amount? forever i guess? which should come first, the supply? or the demand? 6,10,20 GHz supply have been around for decades, and people/company will still buy it. why OwO you just tell your production man to start production, once its in Tindie or Ali i'm pretty sure people and young people in the future will buy it.

[thinkfat]

At a $500 price point you can expect the preorder queue to fill slowly. This is for a hobbyist already in the "serious money" category. The more money you need to spend on something, the more you're going to question your needs to actually have it. I bought a V2 with the large display and metal case. It fulfills all my measurement needs. I'm not looking for a 6GHz instrument. I'd appreciate a 120dB dynamic range, but I can't justify spending $500 on it.

[joeqsmith]

It's easy to suggest how to proceed when you're not the one taking the risk.   While I signed up, I think part of the problem was we never heard back what the specs would end up with.  I want that lower frequency, wide dynamic range and while they stated they were looking into it, we never heard back.   Many, rightfully so, will want to see it in action before they pull the trigger.   $500 would be cheap if they could pull it off.   

[Mechatrommer]

At a $500 price point you can expect the preorder queue to fill slowly. This is for a hobbyist already in the "serious money" category.

if they dont know how its worth, then they should not even buy the 3GHz version.. even the Ali $50 knockoff version.

It's easy to suggest how to proceed when you're not the one taking the risk.

if they are afraid, they can send me the design and let me order pcb and parts from lcsc/jlcpcb, assemble it with my hand for my personal usage 

[Mechatrommer]

if it takes too long, the people in the wait list may quit due to impression that the designers are struggling to meet the promised specs... we may wander off and get the current alternative and try to live with <50dB spec beyond 3GHz just as what we get used to on previous VNA cheaper options such as Deepace unit, here is what i'm talking about ($400 LibreVNA) ps: i have a "one heck of a serious" project waiting for the device. if OwO charge me $700 for their early birdie unit i will not hesitate to pay, even if its aesthetically looks nasty, as long as electrical functionally within the promised spec.

[joeqsmith]

My interest was personal use so I can afford to wait forever.  If they pull it off, I will buy one. 

I had been following the LibreVNA for a long time.  A few people asked me about porting my software to run on it.  I tried to as a few questions on their forum a few times but they censored everything.  Last I saw it seemed they were having a lot of problems and were getting ready to turn a new hardware revision.   At $400 a pop, for the privilege of help them develop it and having to deal with the censorship,  I lost interest and have no idea what's going on with it anymore.   The performance was too poor for what I was wanting it for anyway.   There was one from Russia but again, poor specs and it looked like there was no remote control.  It wasn't well documented.

You can download the software for the ones linked below and see if you like how they drive.  You may also be able to rent a system for a few months.  That may be a really good option if your in a hurry, need a working system and are short on funds.  Of course there is the used market as well.   Maybe with the current state of things, you could find a really good deal.   If you go this route, and your planning to layout a bit of cash, you may want to work a deal where the unit is sent directly to the manufacture for a checkout and any updates.  If there are problems that the seller covers them or the unit is returned. 

Good luck with your project. 

https://coppermountaintech.com/vna/s5065-2-port-6-5-ghz-analyzer/
https://www.picotech.com/vector-network-analyzer/picovna/picovna-series

[Mechatrommer]

Good luck with your project.

just a $5 project really, but i have a little plan and i feel crippled if i cant reach up to 6GHz, its been for months i'm waiting. i can continue with my NanoVNA V2 and spec my device up to 3GHz but meh, it will be much better if i can have 6GHz V3 at hand. those coppermountain and pico devices you mentioned are premium to pro grade (expensive), thats why people like me see a $500 6GHz VNA as an opportunity, not a burden. thanks anyway for your info and wish. censoring comments and opinions by LibreVNA is not a good sign either. cheers.

[thinkfat]

At a $500 price point you can expect the preorder queue to fill slowly. This is for a hobbyist already in the "serious money" category.

if they dont know how its worth, then they should not even buy the 3GHz version.. even the Ali $50 knockoff version.

It's easy to suggest how to proceed when you're not the one taking the risk.

if they are afraid, they can send me the design and let me order pcb and parts from lcsc/jlcpcb, assemble it with my hand for my personal usage 

Aren't you a bit childish expecting to be handed something for basically free, that someone spent months of work on, building up intellectual property with the hope to make a profit out of it eventually. Especially with the copycat mentality displayed among Chinese manufacturers, they're bound to fill a pre-order queue first before committing serious money to a larger production run.

Hitting the right price point, and the right target group, with a decent margin, is critical. USD500 retail is already a stretch, IMHO. If the device is built similar to the NanoRFE V2, even with the enhanced specs, that's going to be a tough sell.

if it takes too long, the people in the wait list may quit due to impression that the designers are struggling to meet the promised specs... we may wander off and get the current alternative and try to live with <50dB spec beyond 3GHz just as what we get used to on previous VNA cheaper options such as Deepace unit, here is what i'm talking about ($400 LibreVNA) ps: i have a "one heck of a serious" project waiting for the device. if OwO charge me $700 for their early birdie unit i will not hesitate to pay, even if its aesthetically looks nasty, as long as electrical functionally within the promised spec.

I doubt people will walk away and buy something else, because, what else would they buy? There is nothing with the same performance and the same price point. Alternatives like the PicoVNA 106 sell at over 5000GBP. The real question is whether the target group is large enough to have a business perspective for the product. I have some doubt about that. If you really need a 6GHz VNA, would you buy something off Tindie or Taobao for $500, from a vendor struggling to put the money out for the first production batch, or would you buy a brand-name instrument even if it costs 10 or 20 times as much.

So, the target group are people who don't actually "need" it yet are curious enough to put out half a grand to buy a novelty item for which they have no actual use. It better be a damn sexy thing.

[Bicurico]

As hobbyist I bought the 50 Euro NanoVNA (probably a clone of it).

That is play money for me that I can use to get these device for the sole purpose of learning how to use it and understanding what (in this case) a VNA measurement is.

At 500 Euro, I think that there will be much less hobbyist people like myself buying one for no particular or specific application other than basically trying it out and learning from it.

The thing is: for 1500 Euro you get a Siglent SSA3021X which you can hack into a SVA1032. While it only goes up to 3.2GHz, it is an entry level professional equipment. I would spend my hobby money on such a device (after saving up money for it), but I would not consider spending 1/3 of that money for a NanoVNA.

Also, people have to understand that measurements over 3GHz require very expensive accessories and cables to get any meaningful measurement.

Considering all this, I really doubt that the NanoVNA3 will be a success at 500 Euro, unless it can act as a proper spectrum analyzer, too.

Regards,
Vitor

[JohnG]

I have a couple alternate scenarios where a $500 VNA makes a lot of sense:

1. Every company I have worked for has a dividing line between $2k to $3k for equipment. Above the line is capital equipment and many justifications, discussions, approvals, et cetera are needed to purchase. Below the line, I can purchase at my own discretion, and if I don't abuse the privilege, I'm good to go.

2. I have had some situations where I needed to measure parasitics on power devices under various dc bias conditions, and I used self-designed bias networks because I couldn't find commercial ones that did what I needed. It's pretty nerve-wracking when your self-designed bias network is all that is standing between your company's very expensive VNA input and an 800V dc power supply, especially if the DUT is an experimental power device of unknown reliability. You could buy quite a few $500 VNAs for the price of the simplest high-end VNA repair. Heck, you could just build it in to your test jig.

John

[Bicurico]

I have a couple alternate scenarios where a $500 VNA makes a lot of sense:

1. Every company I have worked for has a dividing line between $2k to $3k for equipment. Above the line is capital equipment and many justifications, discussions, approvals, et cetera are needed to purchase. Below the line, I can purchase at my own discretion, and if I don't abuse the privilege, I'm good to go.

2. I have had some situations where I needed to measure parasitics on power devices under various dc bias conditions, and I used self-designed bias networks because I couldn't find commercial ones that did what I needed. It's pretty nerve-wracking when your self-designed bias network is all that is standing between your company's very expensive VNA input and an 800V dc power supply, especially if the DUT is an experimental power device of unknown reliability. You could buy quite a few $500 VNAs for the price of the simplest high-end VNA repair. Heck, you could just build it in to your test jig.

John

Not trolling but genuinely asking:
Would an ISo900x certified company accept such test equipment like the NanoVNA3?

[Mechatrommer]

I doubt people will walk away and buy something else, because, what else would they buy?

i've mentioned one alternative above, libreVNA. and me is at least a one person that is at risk of walking away. you cant guarantee all the people in the waitlist will eventually make the purchase when the product is released for sale. so judging from waitlist count is a bit irrational imho. if i buy librevna now, i might not be the early birdie anymore, i'll wait more and more reviews first to justify for another 6GHz VNA when V3 is released. or maybe wait for their 2nd or 3rd revision. and since there is no update as to what is going on in the RnD progress today, we'll start to doubt it... not wanting to take risk in production cost is a lame excuse for me, Kickstarter is there, bank of PRC is there far better than wallstreet or our bank or whatever i think. at least give us some update. if they wait for more people in waitlist, i think they will also lose some people during the time. about who need it who dont? i dont want to debate, HAM/RC community alone is there bigger than this forum, you dont find them here, you can only see them playing with their drones in youtubes and some unknown chaps also doing reviews on NanoVNA V2 there. ymmv.

Not trolling but genuinely asking:
Would an ISo900x certified company accept such test equipment like the NanoVNA3?

well its trolling i guess, even its not original intention. since V3 is not targetting on those companies that can afford $1M of equipments and annual 5 digits service and maintenance cost. if V3 is going to be polish today to meet the target and become 3-4 digit price, we the small hobby/company will be washed away from the poll and start collecting librevna, since its the only best option now.

[joeqsmith]

Not trolling but genuinely asking:
Would an ISo900x certified company accept such test equipment like the NanoVNA3?

At least in R&D, would we care?  It's not a process we need to control to maintain the quality of the products we produce.   Free HF meters for everyone!   

Using it for part of the production test, maybe.  Guessing there are worse fixtures than the Nano in use in some cases.  Interesting thought.  I wonder if anyone has done it. 

[joeqsmith]

Even if the design is 100% complete and has been fully tested, with distribution being what it is, they may not be able to obtain the parts to build it.  You may be waiting for several years before the supply chains return to normal.   

So for $500 can you find an old 8753 with a 6GHz option, have it shipped and get it working.... 

The point about the accessories and their cost is certainly something to consider.     

[JohnG]

Not trolling but genuinely asking:
Would an ISo900x certified company accept such test equipment like the NanoVNA3?

Short answer: yes
Longer answer: Definitely for R&D, because you cannot be limited to existing equipment if it does not meet your R&D needs, and if you are the researcher/developer, making a case for whatever you need should be part of your skill set.

You can even make a case for using something like it as part of a production process, though it may be a lot of extra work to justify, qualify, and document accordingly. The latter may cost more than purchasing high-end equipment when all is considered, but even then, you are still building test fixtures and setups and there is just as much room here for something to go wrong. You can get ISO900x certification and have well documented processes that you follow completely, and turn out crap. You need to have a documented process to deal with crap (I am not kidding).

John

[joeqsmith]

You can get ISO900x certification and have well documented processes that you follow completely, and turn out crap.

When I get in a discussion about quality, I pull out my 100 year old pocket watch made long before ISO, black belt blah blah blah.   Today we talk a lot about quality, have all sorts of training, document everything to the hilt but there was a time we didn't hear too much about it but I think we may have had a better understanding of it. 

[thinkfat]

You can get ISO900x certification and have well documented processes that you follow completely, and turn out crap.

When I get in a discussion about quality, I pull out my 100 year old pocket watch made long before ISO, black belt blah blah blah.   Today we talk a lot about quality, have all sorts of training, document everything to the hilt but there was a time we didn't hear too much about it but I think we may have had a better understanding of it.

That's because everybody is saying "quality" while they're actually just talking about procedures. That is not "quality", that is "accountability". It's about covering your arse. "I cannot be blamed because I followed procedures".

[thinkfat]

Not trolling but genuinely asking:
Would an ISo900x certified company accept such test equipment like the NanoVNA3?

At least in R&D, would we care?  It's not a process we need to control to maintain the quality of the products we produce.   Free HF meters for everyone!   

Using it for part of the production test, maybe.  Guessing there are worse fixtures than the Nano in use in some cases.  Interesting thought.  I wonder if anyone has done it.

What if it starts to impact your yield because the $500 instrument is falsely rejecting perfectly good products.
Or vice versa, letting defective products pass, causing a high level of support calls, returned boxes and angry reviews on Amazon.

[bestel]

I doubt people will walk away and buy something else, because, what else would they buy?

I've bought a LibreVNA this week.
It *seems* to cover all my needs... But there is not a lot more of review available... so I hope it will be OK

I'm not a big fan of hacking, but turning a "SSA3021X into a SVA1032X" is still x3 the "500$" price.
The 6GHz is "just" a nice to have as a work around, but help to have a dynamic range of +/- 85dB for frequency < 3GHz !
(https://github.com/jankae/LibreVNA/blob/master/Documentation/UserManual/specsheet.pdf)

If LibreVNA is a "broken" design, I will certainly buy a SSA3021X.

[joeqsmith]

What if it starts to impact your yield because the $500 instrument is falsely rejecting perfectly good products.
Or vice versa, letting defective products pass, causing a high level of support calls, returned boxes and angry reviews on Amazon.

I was thinking the $50 unit.  $500 for a production test jig used to make the next generation guidance system seems like a stretch.   

[tautech]

If LibreVNA is a "broken" design, I will certainly buy a SSA3021X.

It must be the Plus model. 

[joeqsmith]

I've bought a LibreVNA this week.
It *seems* to cover all my needs... But there is not a lot more of review available... so I hope it will be OK
...
If LibreVNA is a "broken" design, I will certainly buy a SSA3021X.

I doubt very much it would be "broken", at least to the extent they could not sell it.

The very poor communication, or censorship was a deal breaker.  For playing (and I do mean playing) with PDN designs, the 100kHz 60dB dynamic range below 1MHz is not even near good enough.   

The $50 unit does a pretty decent job for what it is.  It will be very interesting to see what OWO brings to the table next. 

 

[thinkfat]

What if it starts to impact your yield because the $500 instrument is falsely rejecting perfectly good products.
Or vice versa, letting defective products pass, causing a high level of support calls, returned boxes and angry reviews on Amazon.

I was thinking the $50 unit.  $500 for a production test jig used to make the next generation guidance system seems like a stretch.   

My sarcasm detector was apparently off that minute 

[bestel]

The very poor communication, or censorship was a deal breaker.

For me, as an outsider, the "very poor communication, or censorship" is compensated by the open-source and the good documentation.
The choice also of technology with Qt is really interesting (run everywhere with good performance) !

The "censorship" was on this URL ? https://groups.io/g/LibreVNA-support
It seems they changed recently.

[thinkfat]

I doubt people will walk away and buy something else, because, what else would they buy?

I've bought a LibreVNA this week.
It *seems* to cover all my needs... But there is not a lot more of review available... so I hope it will be OK

I'm not a big fan of hacking, but turning a "SSA3021X into a SVA1032X" is still x3 the "500$" price.
The 6GHz is "just" a nice to have as a work around, but help to have a dynamic range of +/- 85dB for frequency < 3GHz !
(https://github.com/jankae/LibreVNA/blob/master/Documentation/UserManual/specsheet.pdf)

If LibreVNA is a "broken" design, I will certainly buy a SSA3021X.

Wasn't there a problem with the LibreVNA's dynamic range above 3GHz? I seem to recall 50dB only. The NanoRFE V2+4 at roughly $200 goes up to 4.4GHz and is spec'd 80dB < 3GHz. In fact, the V2+4 might be the fiercest competitor to the V3, if you don't absolutely need 120dB dynamic range (which is amazing, btw).

[bestel]

I doubt people will walk away and buy something else, because, what else would they buy?

I've bought a LibreVNA this week.
It *seems* to cover all my needs... But there is not a lot more of review available... so I hope it will be OK

I'm not a big fan of hacking, but turning a "SSA3021X into a SVA1032X" is still x3 the "500$" price.
The 6GHz is "just" a nice to have as a work around, but help to have a dynamic range of +/- 85dB for frequency < 3GHz !
(https://github.com/jankae/LibreVNA/blob/master/Documentation/UserManual/specsheet.pdf)

If LibreVNA is a "broken" design, I will certainly buy a SSA3021X.

Wasn't there a problem with the LibreVNA's dynamic range above 3GHz? I seem to recall 50dB only. The NanoRFE V2+4 at roughly $200 goes up to 4.4GHz and is spec'd 80dB < 3GHz. In fact, the V2+4 might be the fiercest competitor to the V3, if you don't absolutely need 120dB dynamic range (which is amazing, btw).

It depend of your needs, 50dB is still usable (and I've read you can use harmonics to go up to 7 or 8 GHz).

[bicycleguy]

It's easy to suggest how to proceed when you're not the one taking the risk.   While I signed up, I think part of the problem was we never heard back what the specs would end up with.  I want that lower frequency, wide dynamic range and while they stated they were looking into it, we never heard back.   Many, rightfully so, will want to see it in action before they pull the trigger.   $500 would be cheap if they could pull it off.

Hi, from a fan of some of your youtube, especially using the Signal Hound BB60C. 

I'm a neophyte with a V2 and curious why the interest when you have a BB60C?

[asis]

Hi,
There is a decent alternative.
https://www.osa103.ru/en/hardware/ 

[joeqsmith]

Hi, from a fan of some of your youtube, especially using the Signal Hound BB60C. 

I'm a neophyte with a V2 and curious why the interest when you have a BB60C?

Hello.   I am not sure why I have such a deep interest in electronics.  I guess I am a bit of an equipment junky.  The Signal Hound is really nice and gets a fair bit of use.  I gave away all my other SAs after getting it.   But we are talking about a spectrum analyzer vs a VNA.  It's like asking me if I have a drawer full of hammers, why do I need a screwdriver.  It's a hobby, so I don't but you get the point.    Maybe the better question is if I own an old PNA which will out perform the V2 Plus 4 in every way, why would I have any interest.   Again, equipment junky.  I don't have a problem with it, my wife does. 

My dive into the low cost VNA world was to help out a friend of mine who was looking to purchase a higher end system.  I have been attempting to provide some guideance by making these videos for them.  They are slanted towards electronics design for a reason.     

[thinkfat]

I doubt people will walk away and buy something else, because, what else would they buy?

i've mentioned one alternative above, libreVNA. and me is at least a one person that is at risk of walking away. you cant guarantee all the people in the waitlist will eventually make the purchase when the product is released for sale. so judging from waitlist count is a bit irrational imho. if i buy librevna now, i might not be the early birdie anymore, i'll wait more and more reviews first to justify for another 6GHz VNA when V3 is released. or maybe wait for their 2nd or 3rd revision. and since there is no update as to what is going on in the RnD progress today, we'll start to doubt it... not wanting to take risk in production cost is a lame excuse for me, Kickstarter is there, bank of PRC is there far better than wallstreet or our bank or whatever i think. at least give us some update. if they wait for more people in waitlist, i think they will also lose some people during the time. about who need it who dont? i dont want to debate, HAM/RC community alone is there bigger than this forum, you dont find them here, you can only see them playing with their drones in youtubes and some unknown chaps also doing reviews on NanoVNA V2 there. ymmv.

In every community you have those who actually create and those who just participate. HAM and RC are no different. I am a licensed HAM myself and I have a fair bit of experience from the days when we were actively building Packet Radio networks in Europe, before the days of ubiquitous internet access and "HAMNET". There were only a handful of people who actively built "digipeaters" and set up radio links, even less who built the actual transceivers and even less who were able to design them. Building a digital 23cm transceiver for a radio link was already out of scope for most. The higher you go up in frequency, the more skill is required to build something and the less people are naturally involved.

[bestel]

Today, there is a huge gap between high-end and low-end VNA.
And we should remember to be happy with that "low-end" if you compare to 10 years ago 

Siglent and Rigol understand that, and full the 1500$ - 5000$ range (more than 3000$ if you don't hack), deserted by high-end company doing high-end stuff.
But there is still the 500$ - 1500$, and the question is, why ?

This range is useful to a lot of tiny company that design IoT or consumer-range product. Today, a lot of designer copy older design, and say "it should be okay".
But what if you want to check your RF path between 100MHz - 2400GHz ? You "need" a VNA.
And if you want to check what you're actually transmitting ? You need a SA.

This is why the 500$-1000$ range is so important : it's a no brainer for small company, even if it's one time of use week per year.

More than 1500$ ? Or 5000$ ? You're gonna argue, "Why now?", "Can we do without?", ... And everyone think you just want a new toy (even in the R&D team).
In my last job I had to wait for some BIG problems (certification failed) to make them buy a signal analyser, and even at this point it was after WEEKS of arguing.

Can't wait to test the LibreVNA, and see how it compare with the NanoVNA V3 next year

[edigi]

I've just found this thread.

At a $500 price point you can expect the preorder queue to fill slowly. This is for a hobbyist already in the "serious money" category. The more money you need to spend on something, the more you're going to question your needs to actually have it.

Yep, $500 price point is already in the territory that most hobbyists wouldn't easily spend on a somewhat specialized equipment (that requires already some know-how) so filling up a reasonable long queue won't happen fast.
On the other hand I understand that it requires quite some investment to create such product, so they wouldn't start with a small batch, especially that copycats simply start immediately creating cheap alternatives after first batch availability without any investment in the development, just purely based on the BOM cost.

The poorer dynamic range (and 50dB is already OK for many cases) and higher low frequency limit plays little role in the buying decision for most hobbyist compared to the price.
For that there is already the V1 as an alternative (and quite many people are already happy with that), but even hobbyist may have gadgets (for example FPV stuff operating in the 5G WiFi band meaning frequencies around 5.8GHz) where occasionally a 6GHz VNA can be handy. Handy however does not imply willingness to invest a lot.

That's also the issue with LibreVNA, and it's just a personal preference but I hate to use that kind of equipments (although I have some like Pluto+) that require the use of a computer. That means a quick check is not a quick check anymore.

So as with any other products it's very simple: Know your customers and know your competitors but at this price point open design is getting counterproductive from profitability point of view, especially that at this price point hobbyist easily start looking for alternatives or just turn away.
(V2 is roughly a 2x jump compared to V1 and V3 is now a 4x jump from V2?)

[thinkfat]

Today, there is a huge gap between high-end and low-end VNA.
And we should remember to be happy with that "low-end" if you compare to 10 years ago 

Siglent and Rigol understand that, and full the 1500$ - 5000$ range (more than 3000$ if you don't hack), deserted by high-end company doing high-end stuff.
But there is still the 500$ - 1500$, and the question is, why ?

This range is useful to a lot of tiny company that design IoT or consumer-range product. Today, a lot of designer copy older design, and say "it should be okay".
But what if you want to check your RF path between 100MHz - 2400GHz ? You "need" a VNA.
And if you want to check what you're actually transmitting ? You need a SA.

This is why the 500$-1000$ range is so important : it's a no brainer for small company, even if it's one time of use week per year.

More than 1500$ ? Or 5000$ ? You're gonna argue, "Why now?", "Can we do without?", ... And everyone think you just want a new toy (even in the R&D team).
In my last job I had to wait for some BIG problems (certification failed) to make them buy a signal analyser, and even at this point it was after WEEKS of arguing.

Can't wait to test the LibreVNA, and see how it compare with the NanoVNA V3 next year

IMHO, the question is, can you afford to buy cheap. Can you afford to buy a $500 VNA or SA and have your product fail in certification, or in production, or in the field.

I think it is really a question of risk. How much will it hurt if something goes wrong. For sure a cheap instrument is better than no instrument at all, but it has to be able to answer your questions.

I'm thinking of my time making consumer electronics. At a point it was clear that our company had to introduce WiFi, and Bluetooth, and eventually GPS and make them all coexist in a palm-sized case. But it was a struggle to make management understand that we'd have to have the tooling for it. They tried everything to escape, relying on vendor promises of magical fractal antennas instead of hiring an RF engineer and buying lab equipment. When they finally acted they invested in the wrong thing again, tools instead of brain. And it hurt. A lot.

[bestel]

IMHO, the question is, can you afford to buy cheap. Can you afford to buy a $500 VNA or SA and have your product fail in certification, or in production, or in the field.

You're right, and that's why I always buy from a reputable supplier like Keysight (or whatever) but not Siglent or Rigol (sorry for that).

But, for a VNA, a cheap tool is better than nothing... and it shouldn't fool you as long as you know what you are looking at.
For me, in this price range, it's more of a tool to "confirm" a relatively safe design than to do weird 12GHz stuff as a full-time job.

If I were a pure software developer, I wouldn't have picked up Keysight for my oscilloscope but rather Siglent or Rigol for example.

[joeqsmith]

When they finally acted they invested in the wrong thing again, tools instead of brain.

Happens even at the hobby level where we self manage.  I can open my wallet and buy all this cool stuff to put on a shelf and look at, or I can invest in learning.   More equipment!!   

[JohnG]

IMHO, the question is, can you afford to buy cheap. Can you afford to buy a $500 VNA or SA and have your product fail in certification, or in production, or in the field.

I think it is really a question of risk. How much will it hurt if something goes wrong. For sure a cheap instrument is better than no instrument at all, but it has to be able to answer your questions.

I'm thinking of my time making consumer electronics. At a point it was clear that our company had to introduce WiFi, and Bluetooth, and eventually GPS and make them all coexist in a palm-sized case. But it was a struggle to make management understand that we'd have to have the tooling for it. They tried everything to escape, relying on vendor promises of magical fractal antennas instead of hiring an RF engineer and buying lab equipment. When they finally acted they invested in the wrong thing again, tools instead of brain. And it hurt. A lot.

My current employer uses both. We have a higher-end 4-port VNA with some nice cal kits, etc. But, it resides in one place, and you can't just use it when you want, and you have to baby it. A $500 VNA is so cheap that you can buy a few. Other engineers can be more thorough, and also it makes their mistakes much less costly. We still have the higher-end VNA when needed.

I would also like to point out that there are a lot of exploratory reasons to have a VNA even if your job is not directly related to RF design. As an example, I think it should be required training for power electronics engineers, so they can see that their off-the-shelf inductor has a series resonance at 300 MHz, right at the frequency where there power loop rings. Or, that the slots they cut in the ground plane to "reduce EMI" makes a beautiful dipole with a center frequency at 2.4 GHz. It can make EMI troubleshooting a lot less mysterious. If you have a high-end VNA and they don't know anything about RF equipment, you don't want them anywhere near the machine, anyways.

I understand being sensitive to a bunch of beancounters who are penny-wise and pound-foolish. But, making RF equipment more accessible to engineers is a good thing in my mind. It's a good way to invest in their development.

John

[Mechatrommer]

Can't wait to test the LibreVNA, and see how it compare with the NanoVNA V3 next year

yeah next year i guess.

My current employer uses both. We have a higher-end 4-port VNA with some nice cal kits, etc. But, it resides in one place, and you can't just use it when you want, and you have to baby it. A $500 VNA is so cheap that you can buy a few. Other engineers can be more thorough, and also it makes their mistakes much less costly. We still have the higher-end VNA when needed.

ditto. this is one way to do it. avoiding risk of damaging 7 digit priced equipment.

OwO (and probably his colleagues) has a good reputation here so its unlikely that they design a cheaper-option circuit just for the DUT to fail in the field. and for more reliable verification, big company that can afford, can buy the more expensive tool as a last stage verification as JohnG mentioned. imho the biggest issue with OwO and the gang is marketing or sale strategy, ie they seem like to have a hard time catching up with the knockoff sellers. this is very obvious in their V2 VNA, they only sell in Tindie and nowhere else. i have to register an account just for that device this hassle is so i can buy the authentic product because i've read OwO's post here, if not i would have just bought a knockoff version in Aliepxress and be happy today, and then buy another 6GHz LibreVNA or other knockoff NanoVNA 23M-6GHz and be happy tomorrow, how much they (OwO et al) have lost you guess?

do they expect everybody know or notified about their new coming V3? or do they expect ALL their previous loyal buyers of V2 will fill up the V3 wait list? if so, then that is some kind of mentality. every year, there are thousands of new ee students coming out of U, and more newcomers/hobbiests/enthusiats will dig into 6GHz territory, when they want to buy stuffs, where do you think they will look up to? Tindie? oh please! i will search in youtube, Amazon reviews and Google etc. how you get your product appear in youtube or Amazon if you keep waiting the wait list to fill up?

[joeqsmith]

Hopefully they were smart enough to not lock the V3 group if they are trying to advertise.   

I would be fine with them keeping it closed source to recover their investment as long as they support it.   If they sent a hardware,  I would have no problem porting my software to control it and start making reviews for it.   My channel is very small but it may help generate some interest. 

[thinkfat]

I agree. Locking oneself into a niche is dangerous. I'm pretty sure that they will meet their target specification, but specs alone don't sell. They are a well recognized bunch meanwhile, but they have a long way to go in terms of brand building. Word of mouth alone is not going to be enough.

[jankae]

Hi, LibreVNA developer here. I just stumbled across this thread and am certainly not looking to hijack it, but I still want to shed some light on the mentioned "censored communicatons" issue:
I certainly never censored anything, you can always reach me by mail (see github profile), create issues on github and of course there is the groups.io: https://groups.io/g/LibreVNA-support/topics

Discussions on forums like this is obviously also fine, but if you want my input as well, it is probably best to write a short mail with the link to the topic (I don't constantly monitor all electronic forums )

Here is what happened and what probably looked a lot like censorship from the outside: Shortly before publishing all the data under the name LibreVNA and Hugens announcement of the device, someone created the old LibreVNA group (https://groups.io/g/LibreVNA/topics) and several people (including me) started using it. Although I still don't know who created that group, at first, everything seemed fine. However, after some time messages stopped getting approved. This is only an issue for new members, as approval is not necessary if you posted before. I only became aware of the issue when someone emailed me about it. At that point, Hugen created the new group (which I am also a moderator on) and since then, not a single message was censored. Sorry about all the confusion, please do not use the old group anymore.

[joeqsmith]

While I am surprised you would start out with an unknown group you had no control over, at least I now understand what happened.   Thanks for clearing that up. 

[Bud]

I cant stop laughing seeing how people through 6GHz left and right in this topic. Have any of you measured anything at these frequencies?  And I assume you guys have the calibration standards and patch cables for the frequency range, right?

[joeqsmith]

I cant stop laughing seeing how people through 6GHz left and right in this topic. Have any of you measured anything at these frequencies?  And I assume you guys have the calibration standards and patch cables for the frequency range, right?

I think the idea is that you would use the supplied standards and cables.   For my review of the V2Plus4, I put some simple circuits together but it's limited to 4GHz.   So I guess, yes and yes.   

[joeqsmith]

Recently I was attempting to replicate a study that was looking at the shunt capacitance of 1206 resistors.  That was ran at 6GHz.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/shunt-capacitance-of-1206-smd-resistors-jeroen-belleman-december-2010/msg3606722/#msg3606722


I have an interest in using a VNA to look at PDNs and ended up making a common mode transformer and a couple of DC blocks for it.   These were also tested to 6GHz.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/impedance-measurement-with-vna-using-series-shuntseries-through-methods/

[edigi]

I cant stop laughing seeing how people through 6GHz left and right in this topic. Have any of you measured anything at these frequencies?  And I assume you guys have the calibration standards and patch cables for the frequency range, right?

Luckily there is life beyond metrology grade calibration standards and lab grade equipments in RF technology and in case you missed my previous posts in this topic I even gave concrete use case example for this. Others have also explained quite well that even if one has (occasional) access to high grade equipements (with astronomical prices) it's not necessarily that one wants to/can use it on a daily basis for good enough reasons.

How much demand there is for this kind of VNA is yet to be seen, but I'm pretty confident that the developers trying to push their own distribution channels instead of big ones like Banggood for previous versions cut back their sales so much that actually they may have lost on this. Most people here are probably not impacted or even aware that recent EU regulation changes (IOSS) have made it even worse due to added bureaucracy and incurred cost of the bureaucracy that is entirely pushed to the buyers (perhaps not so much relevant for v3 as its price is likely to be above IOSS region).

[Bicurico]

On a different note: Importing stuff inside the EU has become a nightmare since July of 2021.

All items, even those with a total cost (item price + shipping) under 20 Euro are now subject to import taxes and VAT.

While it can be argued that import taxes and VAT are fair and square, the resulting overload at customs, post offices and other parcel services is overwhealing!

To me, as a consumer, it means that I am now steering away from any purchase outside the EU. It sucks big time and I miss buying stuff from AliExpress and from UK (where test equipment used to be cheaper than in mainland Europe). I am simply not up for the waiting game, where an order may take one week to arrive from China and then get stuck for several months (!) in customs.

What has this to do with the NanoVNA V3? Well, a company and, especially, a hobbyist might not consider a 500 Euro purchase subject to getting lost at customs and taking literally months to be delivered.

So, the manufacturer of the NanoVNA V3 should consider a proper sales channel with local (EU) stores, if they want to do serious business.

The same is valid for many other products available on AliExpress: as soon as a hobby/entry level product gets more mature and the price tag increases to several hundered (Euro/US$), then one wonders if the sales channel through AliExpress is still a reasonable choice.

Regards,
Vitor

[thinkfat]

That I'm not getting. Import goods are now taxed at the source, so this will ease the load on customs and post offices at the destination.

[Mechatrommer]

I cant stop laughing seeing how people through 6GHz left and right in this topic. Have any of you measured anything at these frequencies?  And I assume you guys have the calibration standards and patch cables for the frequency range, right?

today is 5G age friend, wake up! once upon a time hobbiests using circle chaped CRT tube bought 2nd or 3rd hand to see 10MHz waves, now we have Rigol etc... you can fill up the history line, i'm not intending to do a full history lesson here. on which during that time, leaving GHz and VNAs on premium side. today we are seeing the next major phase shift, i've been eyeballing this for years. but thats ok friend, some great people already started it, like OwO group and LibreVNA etc, Deepace earlier... and we are currently doing our parts on studying and venturing into other cheaper options on what you have mentioned. and thanks to China production they seem to catching up, we will be glad to become the Q&C section and reselling at 10 or 300% margin of value added product, depending on how hard work we have done and how much reject units that we are willing to trash one day we hope tinkering with diy 6GHz transceivers and antenna will become mainstream. as i said i have a really serious $5 project waiting for that cheaper VNA, still... one of the major obstacle is... our international shipping cost rate, i need to break into parliment to deal with the issue, but covid halted almost every of this progress, i'm currently thinking about going fishing in the open sea

Hi, LibreVNA developer here..

glad to hear from you. checking your first post was on 2019 so you must be very busy lately. how about creating a thread on LibreVNA in eevblog. it can also serve as a technical support for those of us who are not very familiar with io group. arent you aware of whats going on discussion about NanoVNA V2 around here in these years of the past? as a 6GHz VNA developer i think you should already. btw if i'm given one chance to ask question for you to answer... can LibreVNA support or compatible with VNA View PC software (screenshot attached below) specifically will it upload raw unprocessed S11 data into the PC so VNA View can process it using s-parm databased CAL kit data? (see 2nd attachment). better if we can get this kind of support in your thread specifically created for the LIbreVNA.  i have to learn this VNA View feature by myself with some intuition and guessing as OwO is equally a busy person same as you. i will be checking the io group soon, thanks and cheers.

[Bicurico]

That I'm not getting. Import goods are now taxed at the source, so this will ease the load on customs and post offices at the destination.

This is what the politicians try to tell you... The reality, at least in Portugal, look like this:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pt&tl=en&u=https://www.dn.pt/sociedade/clientes-desesperam-com-encomendas-retidas-na-alfandega-14072601.html

Regards,
Vitor

[thinkfat]

That I'm not getting. Import goods are now taxed at the source, so this will ease the load on customs and post offices at the destination.

This is what the politicians try to tell you... The reality, at least in Portugal, look like this:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pt&tl=en&u=https://www.dn.pt/sociedade/clientes-desesperam-com-encomendas-retidas-na-alfandega-14072601.html

Regards,
Vitor

I think that's made to sound more dire than it actually is. At least now there's a framework in place for 3rd country vendors to tax purchases upfront. As for myself, I have had shipments stuck in customs and returned already before that date. I was very happy when JLCPCB introduced a tax-upfront deliver option last year, I've been using it ever since and never again had to deal with the extortion practices of DHL.

[bestel]

This is what the politicians try to tell you... The reality, at least in Portugal, look like this:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pt&tl=en&u=https://www.dn.pt/sociedade/clientes-desesperam-com-encomendas-retidas-na-alfandega-14072601.html

Regards,
Vitor

Weird, here in France there is no such problems (As a company and as a customer), so they should just hire more staff I guess


Speaking again about best alternatives to NanoVNA V3, my LibreVNA arrived and I'm quite pleased.
By default it warms up higher than +55°C, so I added a little 40x50mm cooler on top which give me +/- 50°C fanless.
I've add a 60mm 12v fan set at 5v which gave me 33°C at room temperature = 22°C.

I've attached the result after a SOLT calibration (done at 30°) of what happen if I stop the FAN.

Of course you can re-calibrate at this temperature.
It's not a problem, I've done this just to reduce the "warm-up" time and to have more control about it.

I've also tested the SWR of my "aviation band" antenna.

Ask me if you want me to do some measurements

[JohnG]

I cant stop laughing seeing how people through 6GHz left and right in this topic. Have any of you measured anything at these frequencies?  And I assume you guys have the calibration standards and patch cables for the frequency range, right?

Like any other difficult topic, some will learn a bit, some will give up, and some (a few) will become so interested that they become very good at it.

In the meantime, some history on even higher frequencies: https://www.cv.nrao.edu/~demerson/bose/bose.htm

John

[edigi]

That I'm not getting. Import goods are now taxed at the source, so this will ease the load on customs and post offices at the destination.

Nope. Some of the imports are taxed at the source, others are not. This means checking each of them at the customs, even that ones that are already taxed, and they have some handling cost (even the taxed ones). If it's paid fast/online smaller, otherwise higher. The non-taxed by default have higher handling cost that is progressive depending on the tax value. Naturally if ​there is something wrong with the electronic taxation information there is double taxing that can be claimed back but it's pretty much unclear what should happen if some item taxed at customs is lost on the route later on and so on.
(Note: It's not uncommon to lose things even with EU origin in Feucht, happened already with me...)

I don't want to hijack this thread with the details as I could write pages about the mess created by bureaucrats and anyhow it somewhat varies country by country (yes, there are such aspects) and totally uninteresting outside of EU.

What's relevant for this thread is that IMHO for NanoVNA v3 a better distribution than for the previous version(s) would be nice (as I still don't know today if my first copy of the v2 was (a redistributed) original one or a good copy and with the presumably significantly higher cost v3 I guess fewer people will be willing to take risks related to distribution).

[bestel]

That I'm not getting. Import goods are now taxed at the source, so this will ease the load on customs and post offices at the destination.

Nope. Some of the imports are taxed at the source, others are not. This means checking each of them at the customs, even that ones that are already taxed, and they have some handling cost (even the taxed ones). If it's paid fast/online smaller, otherwise higher. The non-taxed by default have higher handling cost that is progressive depending on the tax value. Naturally if ​there is something wrong with the electronic taxation information there is double taxing that can be claimed back but it's pretty much unclear what should happen if some item taxed at customs is lost on the route later on and so on.
(Note: It's not uncommon to lose things even with EU origin in Feucht, happened already with me...)

I don't want to hijack this thread with the details as I could write pages about the mess created by bureaucrats and anyhow it somewhat varies country by country (yes, there are such aspects) and totally uninteresting outside of EU.

What's relevant for this thread is that IMHO for NanoVNA v3 a better distribution than for the previous version(s) would be nice (as I still don't know today if my first copy of the v2 was (a redistributed) original one or a good copy and with the presumably significantly higher cost v3 I guess fewer people will be willing to take risks related to distribution).

If it varies country by country inside the EU it mean that is just a problem with "your country" and not the European bureaucrats.

When I want to buy genuine I just buy from a "certified reseller" (which can be tricky with open-source design, but it's easy to found out).

[Mechatrommer]

Ask me if you want me to do some measurements

i think the best thing is to create another review thread for "LibreVNA".. i would love to see the review and performance and linked here. here unfortunately i've titled "NanoVNA V3", maybe too early than i expected.

[joeqsmith]

Ask me if you want me to do some measurements

i think the best thing is to create another review thread for "LibreVNA".. i would love to see the review and performance and linked here. here unfortunately i've titled "NanoVNA V3", maybe too early than i expected.

I too would really appreciate seeing a review of it. 

I've also tested the SWR of my "aviation band" antenna.

I've made a few patch antennas for my review of the V2P4 and was later playing with some Vivaldis.   
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/nanovna-custom-software/msg3674323/#msg3674323

[Just_another_Dave]

Not trolling but genuinely asking:
Would an ISo900x certified company accept such test equipment like the NanoVNA3?

Short answer: yes
Longer answer: Definitely for R&D, because you cannot be limited to existing equipment if it does not meet your R&D needs, and if you are the researcher/developer, making a case for whatever you need should be part of your skill set.

You can even make a case for using something like it as part of a production process, though it may be a lot of extra work to justify, qualify, and document accordingly. The latter may cost more than purchasing high-end equipment when all is considered, but even then, you are still building test fixtures and setups and there is just as much room here for something to go wrong. You can get ISO900x certification and have well documented processes that you follow completely, and turn out crap. You need to have a documented process to deal with crap (I am not kidding).

John

For R&D a VNA that measures up to 6GHz for that price is totally worth it if it’s precise enough to be useful while debugging prototypes (I once worked for a big company that used oscilloscopes for measuring s-parameters in R&D because VNAs where considered too costly and unjustified for the amount of measurements that they needed to take). Then, a high end one can be used if precise measurements are needed without risking to damage it with early stage prototypes

Additionally, it can be quite useful for university labs, so students can learn to use VNAs without damaging equipment that costs thousands of euros

[OwO]

V3 targets the higher end market and it is critical that we reach specs that will remain competitive for at least 5 years, and ensure all software support are completely polished and stable. I'd delay the release by a year if it means I can get that dynamic range 10dB higher. There is no point releasing yet another cheap 6GHz VNA because the market is flooded with that already, and it takes many many years to recoup development costs. Viewed in that light, a time to market edge of months or a year is completely insignificant and it would be foolish for us to chase that extra few months of sales, because all the money is made in the steady trickle of sales in the years that follow.

On why we don't use distribution: we do. All V2 Plus4 on Amazon are genuine with local US stock. But it adds a 2x price premium, so a V3 sold through distributors will either cost $1000, or it will have almost no margin (very bad idea). Will the extra exposure offset the higher price? Maybe, maybe not. It is up to us to do the market analysis. For the lower cost products, the answer has been a clear no. The direct store maybe sells half the volume compared to an all-out distribution strategy, but the direct store makes a reasonable profit margin, whereas the units sold through distribution do not.

TL;DR if you need it urgently, the Arinst VNA-DL is probably the best bang for buck right now. We will take our time to ensure the performance is the best possible and software is mature and full featured out of the box.

EDIT:
We don't look at the waitlist size, but rather how many joins per day there are. We have a lot of data on waitlist conversion rate and dropoff rate vs time, but what is applicable to the V2 Plus4 doesn't necessarily apply to the V3, so we aren't betting on anyone in the waitlist actually buying.

The biggest cost is not the production run, but the development. Hence the development was paused at a very crude prototype (that was used to set specifications) until we were convinced there is enough interest. Everyone here are paid good rates, so development easily runs into 6 figures, which makes the production run costs look like peanuts. The good news is there is sufficient interest, so development can proceed.

[Mechatrommer]

The good news is there is sufficient interest, so development can proceed.

glad to hear from you again OwO. i just replied to your PM. good to hear that there will be hope for this device to see the light, and good news for me, i'm still doing other projects so there is no urgency yet and i can still wait so far for the NanoV3 release. the biggest problem for me with other alternatives is as i mentioned in PM that they do not support NanoVNA-QT GUI SW(or NanoVNA-QT doesnt support them, either way) and the most important feature for me lies in the SW itself, not the HW, quite unfortunate for me. so the best, affordable and acceptable option for me right now is still the 4GHz NanoV2, so i'm still waiting. cheers.

[edigi]

I'd delay the release by a year if it means I can get that dynamic range 10dB higher.

If you relax the overly ambitious current targets for dynamic range (120dB dynamic range to 3GHz, 100dB dynamic range to 6GHz) by 20dB even that is 10dB more than what is realistic at this price point in my view.
Sure it can help if the IFBW is set to very narrow, but that has very little practical value (especially above couple of 100MHz that the v1 can still do).
Most people who intend to buy it plan to do it not because the very narrow BW at several GHz or very good DR, think about that.

Of course as its your project you're free to do it whatever way you like it. Just my two cents.

[OwO]

>100dB @ 6GHz has already been achieved by the last prototype, at a not very narrow IFBW so still reasonably fast sweeps. >120dB @ 3GHz is a bit harder but we'll get there.
We don't want to release something only to have it be undercut by chinese vendors selling at no margin a year later, so it's highly critical to have that performance edge, which I've seen that professional customers are willing to pay much more for, and invest a good amount of effort into anticopy protection mechanisms.

Depending on how the design goes, we may end up with two offerings, a high end version below $1000, and a lower cost version below $500. I can not go into much more detail than that because it's important market research information that I'm sure the predators are after.

[Mechatrommer]

Depending on how the design goes, we may end up with two offerings, a high end version below $1000, and a lower cost version below $500. I can not go into much more detail than that because it's important market research information that I'm sure the predators are after.

+ with what you have written in PM... do your team have mechanism to stop other cloners from reverse engineering your super duper highly speced product when its out? do you have good guarantee that your product will be on top of the food chain for a longer time? like its so fucking difficult to reverse engineer?

[OwO]

+ with what you have written in PM... do your team have mechanism to stop other cloners from reverse engineering your super duper highly speced product when its out? do you have good guarantee that your product will be on top of the food chain for a longer time? like its so fucking difficult to reverse engineer?

Yes.

[Mechatrommer]

+ with what you have written in PM... do your team have mechanism to stop other cloners from reverse engineering your super duper highly speced product when its out? do you have good guarantee that your product will be on top of the food chain for a longer time? like its so fucking difficult to reverse engineer?

Yes.

so now its a matter of price (affordability) and equally talented like you people (competition)

[hajkrem]

@OwO - So far I had to disassemble and fix 3 times so far my HXCQS NanoVNA Plus4 (last time noisy measurement in the whole frequency range). Browsing the mailing list, none of my issues were unique, and there must be widespread quality issues regarding manufacturing and part sourcing. I discourage everyone from buying hobby-level instrument with epoxy-blobs on it, as it makes both understanding and repair harder. I also find somewhat cynical of you talking about predators, when your team are the ones who derailed the open-source NanoVNA brand and converted it eventually into a closed hardware.

[Mechatrommer]

I discourage everyone from buying hobby-level instrument with epoxy-blobs on it, as it makes both understanding and repair harder.

yes we are well aware we should buy pro-level such as Keysight FieldFox. we are waiting for your review on that...

I also find somewhat cynical of you talking about predators, when your team are the ones who derailed the open-source NanoVNA brand and converted it eventually into a closed hardware.

make your own thread, this is not ethical thread, and its already being discussed somewhere you can find it OwO defending themselves in long story. in short iirc, V2 is totally developed by them and is not the same as earlier V1... otherwise, you should show us some Copyright application on the name "NanoVNA" owned by who and where.

now i can see you already complaint about your V2 damage in V2 thread, thats a wise move, but not here, please. and we dont have such nasty blobs on our V2 board, so it must be unfortunate for you, i'm sorry. imho you must have it returned when first time receiving it in such condition. cheers.

[hajkrem]

It's pretty on-topic. Facts:
1. V2 units shipped by this design team had (have?) quality issues.
 - https://nanorfe.com/forum/CH0-has-gone-noisy.html
 - https://nanorfe.com/forum/Quick-question-about-device.html
2. Official V2 units have epoxy blobs as an anticopy-mechanism, which decrease our ability to repair.
 - https://groups.io/g/NanoVNA-V2/message/1151
3. OwO talks about anticopy protection of the v3 design.
 - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/nanovna-v3-(6ghz)/msg3815639/#msg3815639

You say it's all fine, because it's cheap. The fact that people are buying the v2-s support this claim. However this argument will not hold when the pricepoint enters the territory of used brandname equipments (~1kUSD).

This whole thing would not be an issue if the v3 designers come up with an original name and register it as a trademark, just as they forced the LibreVNA guys to do the same. In this case there is no need for severe copyright mechanisms, and people tend to buy from teams that keep developing the software as well anyway - especially in the 1kUSD range.

[OwO]

If it isn't ESD damage, it is covered by warranty and you can simply message the seller for a replacement. Given that we've shipped many thousand units already, some reports of defects is to be expected, but every warranty request so far have been honored. V3 series will also be produced on a separate line with tighter QC on PCBA since at the higher price it can be afforded, and full AOI has been recently enabled for V2Plus4 as well so there should be less defects.

We used to open source designs, but can no longer do so for a reason: https://nanorfe.com/forum/About-clones.html
V3 will actually have another name, but I can't say what the name will be yet until the trademark has been registered.

Anyway I will not argue with you about the correct way to do V3, we will execute our plan based on our market research and whether or not it succeeds is our problem. What is certain though is we are leaving the low cost hobbyist segment and will be moving to higher quality (and higher cost). V3 is likely to be over budget and won't meet the price target listed on the site, but we might be able to get it under $1000.

[JohnG]

It's pretty on-topic. Facts:
1. V2 units shipped by this design team had (have?) quality issues.
 - https://nanorfe.com/forum/CH0-has-gone-noisy.html
 - https://nanorfe.com/forum/Quick-question-about-device.html
2. Official V2 units have epoxy blobs as an anticopy-mechanism, which decrease our ability to repair.
 - https://groups.io/g/NanoVNA-V2/message/1151
3. OwO talks about anticopy protection of the v3 design.
 - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/nanovna-v3-(6ghz)/msg3815639/#msg3815639

You say it's all fine, because it's cheap. The fact that people are buying the v2-s support this claim. However this argument will not hold when the pricepoint enters the territory of used brandname equipments (~1kUSD).

This whole thing would not be an issue if the v3 designers come up with an original name and register it as a trademark, just as they forced the LibreVNA guys to do the same. In this case there is no need for severe copyright mechanisms, and people tend to buy from teams that keep developing the software as well anyway - especially in the 1kUSD range.

You are free to also develop and improve the NanoVNA as you wish, and you can check all the boxes and fix all the things you don't like that others are doing. You should also be prepared for the many people who will complain bitterly about your work.

In the meantime, I welcome the availability of these instruments and am thankful for the tremendous effort into making the multi-GHz realm accessible for a cost that is two or more orders of magnitude less expensive than it was even 10 years ago.

And, used, working instruments in the $1k range are not readily accessible. All the ones I have seen in that range have damage or failed parts, have obvious physical damage, and are sold as is. And, they all came with exorbitant shipping charges.

John

[OwO]

Anyway "V3" at this point is just a vague concept though, it may or may not end up being a product as we may just opt to license the design instead. It's just a hobby project at this point since all I've seen indicates the market is so small that you shouldn't take it too seriously. Or I may just go and take the 6 figure job at a big technology company doing cutting edge R&D and be gone with this race to the bottom crap, maybe I'll decide that's where I want to be in life instead.

Anyway I don't want anything to do with open source anymore, what I've realized is that without IP protection everything becomes a commodity market, and in a commodity market it's big corporations with economy of scale and control that win at the expense of smaller innovators ("walmart effect"). IP is the only thing that allows a small innovator to stand a chance against those that are bigger and more powerful. My earlier open source efforts have all ended up helping vendors that don't pay for R&D and harming small players like MiniVNA, PocketVNA, NanoVNA-F by BH5HNU, etc. Open source is a meaningless ideal that could do more harm than good. Please watch the TV series Fate/Zero and Madoka Magica (+ the movie), and understand that life is too short to be infatuated with ideals and principles.

[nctnico]

If it isn't ESD damage, it is covered by warranty and you can simply message the seller for a replacement. Given that we've shipped many thousand units already, some reports of defects is to be expected, but every warranty request so far have been honored. V3 series will also be produced on a separate line with tighter QC on PCBA since at the higher price it can be afforded, and full AOI has been recently enabled for V2Plus4 as well so there should be less defects.

We used to open source designs, but can no longer do so for a reason: https://nanorfe.com/forum/About-clones.html
V3 will actually have another name, but I can't say what the name will be yet until the trademark has been registered.

Anyway I will not argue with you about the correct way to do V3, we will execute our plan based on our market research and whether or not it succeeds is our problem. What is certain though is we are leaving the low cost hobbyist segment and will be moving to higher quality (and higher cost). V3 is likely to be over budget and won't meet the price target listed on the site, but we might be able to get it under $1000.

Will V3 have a bigger screen and capacitive touch instead of resistive?

[OwO]

Right now all we have is the VNA core prototype (built out of many small modules). The final design could be anything at this point, display/no display, 4.3 inch vs 4 inch, capacitive vs resistive touch, full two port vs T/R + transfer switch. You can post your ideas and suggestions, I can't promise anything but I will read this thread occasionally and keep all the suggestions so far in mind.

In the mean time please do watch these masterpieces (might be available on Netflix):
https://myanimelist.net/anime/10087/Fate_Zero
https://myanimelist.net/anime/11741/Fate_Zero_2nd_Season
https://myanimelist.net/anime/9756/Mahou_Shoujo_Madoka%E2%98%85Magica
https://myanimelist.net/anime/11981/Mahou_Shoujo_Madoka%E2%98%85Magica_Movie_3__Hangyaku_no_Monogatari (this movie is the sequel to the TV series)

[hajkrem]

Thanks, it was an impressive answer. As I understand you plan to compete with something like the TTR500, which at $12k is already a nice deal. That's something I'm considering now. If a reputable brand, like Siglent were selling something similar for $5-6k, I would have bought that already. I'm looking for used stuff in the sub-$2k range. My tindie/ebay/etc limit is $1k though, and only if the design is open, and I can source part long after the seller/warranty is gone. I consider myself a typical customer, and I doubt your market research shows anything significantly different.

[Mechatrommer]

V3 is likely to be over budget and won't meet the price target listed on the site, but we might be able to get it under $1000.

bad news..

It's just a hobby project at this point since all I've seen indicates the market is so small that you shouldn't take it too seriously.

the increased price will make it even smaller...

Anyway "V3" at this point is just a vague concept though, it may or may not end up being a product as we may just opt to license the design instead.

more bad news..

 

[nctnico]

Right now all we have is the VNA core prototype (built out of many small modules). The final design could be anything at this point, display/no display, 4.3 inch vs 4 inch, capacitive vs resistive touch, full two port vs T/R + transfer switch. You can post your ideas and suggestions, I can't promise anything but I will read this thread occasionally and keep all the suggestions so far in mind.

I have some kind of NanoVNA model (*) and what bugs me the most is the small screen. It would be nicer with a bigger screen. More in the area of 7" or 8" so it is still a small device but you can operate it with your fingers instead of a stylus. I'm also not a fan of the resistive touchscreen but this could be a component choice related issue of the particular model I have. It would also be nice to have reasonable spectrum analysis features (good enough for generic spectrum analysis and EMC pre-compliance use). My reasoning behind my suggestions is that currently I have a big-ass loud spectrum analyser which can do a lot of things but it is not very practical. The NanoVNA OTOH is a neat device but the screen is simply too small to use it extensively. Something that combines the convenience of a bigger screen and small size which can do both network analysis and spectrum analysis would be a good candidate to replace my spectrum analyser.

* H4 from nanovna.com ; I hope some of my money went into your pockets as a reward for your efforts.

[Mechatrommer]

2. Official V2 units have epoxy blobs as an anticopy-mechanism, which decrease our ability to repair.
 - https://groups.io/g/NanoVNA-V2/message/1151
3. OwO talks about anticopy protection of the v3 design.
 - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/nanovna-v3-(6ghz)/msg3815639/#msg3815639

i dont think epoxy blob can do any good at protecting from reverse engineering, they must use even better method. such as some sort of encryption in comm-lanes etc.. PCB can be easily R.E. with proper equipment even hobbiest can afford. scratched ICs can be guessed or find alternatives. the other protection is legal/patent/copyright but that can cost millions $ i guess.. thats why afa R.E is concerned, there's not much a small budget company can do.. unless they have some secret recipe that only them can imagine. my bet (their last stand) will be on the FW/SW encryption/mangling/etc

ps: i de-potted a very thick (about an inch) potted bike's ECU (damaged) last time for the sake to see whats inside or if i can repair it, i managed to break some traces and components because i want it to be quick. i can do a perfect depotting if i really wanted to but i ended up it being in the trash. the damaged board i still can see many things to learn or whatever..

[nctnico]

In the end copy protection mechanisms just hurt the end user. It needs to be paid for. A better approach is to come up with good software and keep adding new features over time. That way the competition (cloners) are always behind.

[tautech]

If a reputable brand, like Siglent were selling something similar for $5-6k, I would have bought that already. I'm looking for used stuff in the sub-$2k range.

I've heard some Chinese whispers...... ETA unknown.

[mawyatt]

Custom ICs in a modern advanced small geometry process are a good way to protect IP, because they are extremely difficult to reverse engineer. If one intends to protect IP by means of using a custom chip and designs for such, then RE becomes almost impossible within a reasonable timeframe and cost. Here is where "IP Thieves" will revert to trying to get access to IC design files. Using insider techniques, like hiring away a original designer, or paying off company employees, paying off fabrication employees, blackmail, even using an IP spy which will get hired into the company with the purpose of stealing select valuable IP. Industrial espionage seems common place today, and many companies go to great efforts and costs to protect valuable IP.

Of course the downside of a custom IC is the non-recurring cost due to the initial design and fab for prototyping is quite expensive, and may not be viable for a small $ market. The upside is the recurring chip cost is small and the IP well protected and better suited for high $ markets.

Best,

[jjoonathan]

OwO, you stuck with the good cause longer than I did, and as a result also left more of a positive impact on the world than I did. I'd be a hypocrite if I asked you to stick with it, so instead I'll say thanks for what you have done 

[nctnico]

Custom ICs in a modern advanced small geometry process are a good way to protect IP, because they are extremely difficult to reverse engineer. If one intends to protect IP by means of using a custom chip and designs for such, then RE becomes almost impossible within a reasonable timeframe and cost. Here is where "IP Thieves" will revert to trying to get access to IC design files.

That will only work if the chip does something really unique that can not be achieved by using standard parts. All in all not that useful for IP protection (there are many people that have fixed broken equipment by creating circuits to replace an unobtanium chip).

A microcontroller with a verification mechanism inside that checks whether valid software is running and use encryption on firmware images is a better option. But there is no doubt that can be broken as well.

[mawyatt]

That will only work if the chip does something really unique that can not be achieved by using standard parts. All in all not that useful for IP protection (there are many people that have fixed broken equipment by creating circuits to replace an unobtanium chip).

Try reverse engineering one of the later System on Chip, or one of the older ones we did, good luck with that effort

The only unobtanium chips that were replicated with other chips and/or circuits were likely very old chips used in old products from long ago and thus fabricated in old processes and likely not much modern IP involved, if any.

I've seen lots of chips get replaced by a modern like chips, sometimes having to deal with the differing pinouts, but no modern ones I can recall where the actual chip was reversed engineered and duplicated. If you have any examples please provide those.

The replica that does come to mind is the Tektronix U800 type used in many older analog scopes, this was copied and duplicated, but this wasn't a custom chip, it was a simple hybrid which was easy to copy and replicate. Also vaguely remember an old HP chip that was replaced with some discrete JFETs and maybe a microcontroller.

A microcontroller with a verification mechanism inside that checks whether valid software is running and use encryption on firmware images is a better option. But there is no doubt that can be broken as well.

That works for IP that is firmware based, but of no use for hardware IP protection. How long do you think it would take to copy OwO unique IP if it's just hardware based using just microcontroller verification??

As mentioned by others just erasing the IC identification won't hold back someone long, as it's relatively easy to figure out the function and trace out the circuit, and you can even probe the circuit to check things out. If the entire function were integrated, that copy effort becomes much more difficult, and if the original design was implemented to prevent IP theft all the more difficult. Probing an IC outside just the I/O pins isn't easy either, and with sub-micron lines deeply embedded (one simple IP preventive measure) is something that will be difficult indeed!! Then the reversed engineering effort must be verified with another custom chip fabricated, hoping that something wasn't missed, this is expensive, time consuming, and highly risky.

Not saying a custom IC is the ultimate IP hardware theft prevention, but can make life miserable for those IP thefts out there

Best,

[nctnico]

Nowadays hardware isn't interesting. And nobody needs reverse engineering a chip; a functional replacement is good enough and cheaper as well given de engineering costs. Why bother with breaking into the front door when the back door is unlocked? Be creative. Many years ago some burglars went into my employer's building. They found a locked door but instead of breaking the door open, they simply kicked through the plaster board wall.

Nowadays the secret sauce is always in the software. Just look at modern low cost oscilloscopes. They all use the same hardware. The differentiator is in the software. IOW: if you care about IP protection, make sure the secret ingredient is in the software and make it hard to probe the software for its functionality.

[mawyatt]

Nowadays hardware isn't interesting. And nobody needs reverse engineering a chip; a functional replacement is good enough and cheaper as well given de engineering costs.

This misses the whole point of IP, if one can't duplicate or surpass the performance then one must "steal" it, or bail. IP isn't about me-too performance that can be easily replicated, it's about unique ability that isn't easy to do, otherwise it would have already been done by many!!

Just look at modern low cost oscilloscopes. They all use the same hardware. The differentiator is in the software. IOW: if you care about IP protection, make sure the secret ingredient is in the software and make it hard to probe the software for its functionality.

Yep those scopes do all use basically the same hardware! Why, because it's decades old me-too technology, and nothing unique IP to protect!!

Don't think the latest high performance scopes use the same hardware tho, know Keysight spent quite a bit on the new ADCs for their high end scopes, so did LeCroy, and likely Tecktronix. Why develop full custom ADCs at considerable expense, and likely have significant IP involved, when they could have used off-the-shelve ADCs from TI or AD and just use software to differentiate their products?  They couldn't achieve the performance levels required without custom ADCs and unique hardware IP, even with the software wizards at work, so they opted to develop full custom ADCs with considerable IP to help differentiate their products.

Software can't always fix flawed or performance limiting hardware, and this is where hardware does matter!!

Best,

[joeqsmith]

Right now all we have is the VNA core prototype (built out of many small modules). The final design could be anything at this point, display/no display, 4.3 inch vs 4 inch, capacitive vs resistive touch, full two port vs T/R + transfer switch. You can post your ideas and suggestions, I can't promise anything but I will read this thread occasionally and keep all the suggestions so far in mind.

In the mean time please do watch these masterpieces (might be available on Netflix):
https://myanimelist.net/anime/10087/Fate_Zero
https://myanimelist.net/anime/11741/Fate_Zero_2nd_Season
https://myanimelist.net/anime/9756/Mahou_Shoujo_Madoka%E2%98%85Magica
https://myanimelist.net/anime/11981/Mahou_Shoujo_Madoka%E2%98%85Magica_Movie_3__Hangyaku_no_Monogatari (this movie is the sequel to the TV series)

First, let me say I use the V2Plus4 from your store a fair amount and have not had a single problem with it.  This includes the firmware.  It's a great product for the price.   

Assuming the V3 works as intended, I could care less if you do not release the hardware or firmware to public domain.  If you want to stay with an open source design, determine the development costs and run a kick start.   Make sure the design goals are clear.  I would gladly pay up front and have no problems waiting for it's release.  If you don't meet your goal on kickstart, just don't continue with the development.   I think you have enough clout that people would trust you to pull it off.

I never use the V2Plus4 without a PC and have no use for the display, buttons or battery.  As long as there is a way to update the firmware if there's a problem, I don't how it's accomplished.   The software interface must be well documented.   Stick with the same protocol as the V2Plus4 and make my life easier.    I'm not a fan of USB but it would with staying with it.  SMAs are good.   While the full 2-port would be nice, for myself the use would be limited with with sqarewave drive.   I'm not expecting it to compete with that CMT I mentioned.   

I would like to be able to use it for narrow band work.  For us, it will come down to how low we can set the start frequency, noise, dynamic range, how much data and how fast it can sweep and be offloaded.   I would like to see 20kHz for a start freq with 110 dB dynamic range.  The rest is just icing on the cake.   

We are looking forward to seeing what you come out with. 

[Mechatrommer]

If you want to stay with an open source design, determine the development costs and run a kick start.   Make sure the design goals are clear.  I would gladly pay up front and have no problems waiting for it's release.  If you don't meet your goal on kickstart, just don't continue with the development. I think you have enough clout that people would trust you to pull it off.

the problem is.. he's not the only one developing this and there is some "corporate/strategic/market" decision going on behind. so this is not entirely up to him. i guess OwO is just a design engineer and not more...

[joeqsmith]

There's no problem. 

[all_repair]

Kickstarter or crowdsupply is a good suggestion.  And it does not have to a big bang, the release can be in few iterations and so development effort can be recovered through few releases which have a good interval in between.  Or the potential buyers shall be slowly reduced through those who do.  Since then, there are LibreVNA and liteVNA.   Hugen is making themselve a vehicle for designer of tinySA, libreVNA (6GHz)and liteVNA(6GHz with LCD).     
 

[OwO]

all_repair: one of the designers you mentioned does not receive any royalties for their design, and the other designer receives peanuts. This is a warning for all potential designers about letting vendors access to your design who have a track record of not respecting the original developer's wishes and just steals your design if negotiations fall down. There are many better vendors to cooperate with to take your design to market, like Seeed studio or Elecrow. Clones or not, I'm doing far better now than if I had accepted a deal with that vendor. Engineers, please do not undervalue your work and make sure you demand fair pay for it.

[OwO]

I never use the V2Plus4 without a PC and have no use for the display, buttons or battery.  As long as there is a way to update the firmware if there's a problem, I don't how it's accomplished.   The software interface must be well documented.   Stick with the same protocol as the V2Plus4 and make my life easier.    I'm not a fan of USB but it would with staying with it.  SMAs are good.   While the full 2-port would be nice, for myself the use would be limited with with sqarewave drive.   I'm not expecting it to compete with that CMT I mentioned.   

I would like to be able to use it for narrow band work.  For us, it will come down to how low we can set the start frequency, noise, dynamic range, how much data and how fast it can sweep and be offloaded.   I would like to see 20kHz for a start freq with 110 dB dynamic range.  The rest is just icing on the cake.   

We are looking forward to seeing what you come out with.

I will keep this in mind. The low frequency support is in the plans and I'm starting to prototype various ways to do it. I think the main competitors will be the lower end of the professional offerings (copper mountain, picotech, etc) rather than NanoVNA related products. There are actually some aspect where we may be able to beat the professional offerings, like temperature drift and low frequency performance. But with the budget constraints things like sine wave output and wide adjustable power output probably won't make it.

[mawyatt]

Engineers, please do not undervalue your work and make sure you demand fair pay for it.

Very good advise.

Most older engineers have had times when they were taken advantage of, myself included. Most engineers are not good business folks, myself included, and an opportunity for others to take advantage.

Good engineers always want to do the best possible, it's ingrained, and others take advantage of that characteristic!!

Good luck with your endeavors,

Best,

[joeqsmith]

... The low frequency support is in the plans and I'm starting to prototype various ways to do it. I think the main competitors will be the lower end of the professional offerings (copper mountain, picotech, etc) rather than NanoVNA related products. There are actually some aspect where we may be able to beat the professional offerings, like temperature drift and low frequency performance. But with the budget constraints things like sine wave output and wide adjustable power output probably won't make it.

I don't see you competing with the professional products but instead forging a new niche area.   

All of these profession units will be sine wave drive.  Some support log sweep, bias Ts, adjustable level.    Freq range, tempco,  noise, dynamic range for a few low cost (<$25,000 USD) portable units:   

Pico Technology PicoVNA 106
0.3 MHz to 6 GHz at 10 Hz resolution
± 0.005 dB RMS ± 0.02 dB/°C. Measured at maximum bandwidth.
Transmission: ±0.1 dB, ±1°
Reflection: ±0.5 dB, ±4°
Dynamic Range: Typically: 118 dB @10 Hz
Guaranteed: 108 dB 10–4000 MHz 100 dB 0.3–6000 MHz

Copper Mountain S5065
0.01 MHz to 6.5 GHz at 1 Hz resolution
± 0.0021 dB RMS ± 0.02 dB/°C. Measured in 3 kHz bandwidth.
Transmission: ±0.1 dB, ±1°
Reflection: ±0.4 dB, ±3°
Dynamic Range: Typically: 130 dB @1 Hz
Guaranteed: 125 dB 0.3–4800 MHz 120 dB 0.3–6500 MHz 75 dB 0.1–6500 MHz

Tektronix TTR506A
0.1 MHz to 6 GHz at 1 Hz resolution
± 0.008 dB RMS ± 0.015 dB/°C. Measured at maximum bandwidth.
Transmission: ±0.2 dB, ±2°
Reflection: ±No spec. dB, ±°
Dynamic Range: Typically: 122 dB @No spec. Hz
Guaranteed: ≥124 dB typ. 2–200 MHz ≥125 dB 200 MHz–3 GHz ≥122 dB 3–6 GHz

Anritsu Shockline MS46322A-008
0.05 MHz to 8 GHz at 1 Hz resolution
± 0.006 dB RMS ± 0.02 dB/°C. Measured at maximum bandwidth.
Transmission: ±0.08 dB, ±0.5°
Reflection: ±0.37 dB, ±2.2°
Dynamic Range: Typically: 115 dB @10 Hz
Guaranteed: ≥100 dB 10 MHz–8 GHz

[Just_another_Dave]

Engineers, please do not undervalue your work and make sure you demand fair pay for it.

Very good advise.

Most older engineers have had times when they were taken advantage of, myself included. Most engineers are not good business folks, myself included, and an opportunity for others to take advantage.

Good engineers always want to do the best possible, it's ingrained, and others take advantage of that characteristic!!

Good luck with your endeavors,

Best,

Pricing your own work can be quite difficult (especially consulting services in which you can’t use the cost as a reference) and, at the same time, the best engineers I’ve known were always willing to collaborate and openly discuss about their projects or knowledge. That makes it easy for others to take advantage of them

Additionally, when you’re starting it is difficult to realize that some seemingly uninterested questions might actually be a way to get information on how to solve a problem that a commercial product has without paying a consultant

[all_repair]

Never been easy on pricing, and market judgement.  Most enginners which likely had worked or still working in big companies err wanting to price for high price high volume (which only monopoly like Apple can play).  The stable equilibrium is always either high price (=high profit) low volume, or low price high volume.  No room for other combination.

[mawyatt]

Regarding pricing for consulting, believe a good reference price is to use 2X the salary one would get working for a company. Most companies I've been involved with charge 3~5X salary for engineering time, so the 2X individual consulting rate is reasonable. At the senior advanced consulting level this is what folks seem to do, at lease the ones we know.

Also, don't short change yourself on travel time and cost, attorneys do it and consulting engineers are equally entitled. If your travel is extensive, like out of town and over night or longer, then a flat daily rate for travel + incurred cost (airfare, hotel, car rental, parking) is usually acceptable.

Best,

[optotester]

Would be interested too. Not sure if it was reported, but it is not possible to subscribe to the waiting list from an iPhone. The button just does not work and I never got the "OK" message, so maybe that could explain why the waiting list is filling slowly too.