Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

Not to mention that people buying the china junk results in the good companies going under due to no further path to profit and then everybody is forced to buy junk...  This is why I never complain about buying a quality tool.  A quality tool will serve you well for its entire life, and that life can be very long if you care for it.  A china tool will serve you poorly for an undetermined and often random amount of time before you're forced to throw it in the landfill where all the other china junk goes.  This is why we have a plastic island the size of Texas floating off the coast of California.  I guess this is called "progress"?

Apple's (*) iPhones, iPads, iMacs, etc. are "China junk" too, then, right?

(*) Most USA companies manufacture "as much as they can" in China nowadays.

[Fungus]

(*) Most USA companies manufacture "as much as they can" in China nowadays.

That's why Apple devices have stickers saying "designed in California" on them.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

(*) Most USA companies manufacture "as much as they can" in China nowadays.

That's why Apple devices have stickers saying "designed in California" on them.

Right, to try to SAVE FACE.

[Wuerstchenhund]

@Wuerstchenhund : there is a lot of contradiction in what you are writing.  My own experience with Chinese engineers is that while being clever they have very little understanding of the purpose of a product. Just do as being told but in that process the little details that make or break a product are lost.

This is certainly true but not different from a Western engineer starting to work on a product for a field he doesn't really know well. For example, while I understand EE and electrical engineering the intrinsics of a control system for a nuclear power plant would be beyond my current understanding.

And if you ever worked with the typical American worker then you'll find that while he's generally a good worker and tries to do his task to the best to his abilities, there often is very little interest in the big picture. Still, some of the best engineers I know are American.

AFAIK people in Russia and East Europe had a lot more freedom to read & learn whatever people liked so could develop themselves more broadly compared to the Chinese restrictive educational system which actively suppresses free thinking and creativity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_China

"China has also become a top destination for international students. As of 2013, China is the most popular country in Asia for international students, and ranks third overall among countries. As of 2018, the country has the world's second highest number of top universities."

The problems in Chinese education are less in the quality of education, it's more to do that the system enacts extreme pressure on students. There is also a difference in quality between the universities in larger cities and those in rural areas, but the same can be said for most universities in Western countries, too.

Also, as someone else said, political oppression is rarely something which prevents people getting creative. China has a very rich culture in arts, music and movies, which would not be possible if they were these simple-minded drones they are described here.

Back to oscilloscopes: What is special about Rigol's ASIC and Siglent's features in the SDS5kX? AFAIK the Rigol ASIC is missing several basic features and AFAICS the Siglent SDS5kX doesn't have any feature you won't be able to find on an A-brand and in many cases the A-brand will have a more polished performance (be it at a higher price).

Rigol's ASIC is special because it's a sign of technological progress. And yes, the Phoenix ASIC might be imperfect but frankly if you look at something like the Keysight MegaZoom ASIC then it's not exactly wizardry, too, just a clever concept poured in hardware.

The other thing that's often ignored is that Rigol is doing more than just producing test equipment. They have been making high performance chromatography equipment for a long time (although I think this part has been sold on), for example the L-3000:

http://www.tlab.pl/tl_files/produkty/RIGOL/L-3000%20HPLC/HPLC2015-EN-MINI.pdf

As to Siglent, show me any comparable(!) MSO from any other brand which offers the same amount of memory sample, a similarly extensive range of trigger functions, can decently large FFTs (i.e. more than 1Mpts), decent math, lots of measurements, comes with very good Bode plot function, and a large display with a decent resolution?

None of the Keysight InfiniVision scopes fullfill this requirement (small memory, small FFT, limited math, limited trigger).

Tektronix MDO3000 doesn't, either (small memory, smaller FFT, limited trigger, no bode plot, no touch screen). And out of experience of owning one I can't even say it's more polished than the SDS5kX, in fact it's a lot worse.

R&S RTB2004? Nope. Smaller memory (and the full 160Mpts are only available in segmented mode), small FFT, limited measurements, math and triggers.

What else? 

[nctnico]

You 'cleverly' left the R&S RTM3000 out. And not to mention Yokogawa has a whole bunch of interesting scopes. And on the lower end there is GW Instek too. All in all lots of other choices besides Rigol and Siglent. Don't get too wound up about deep memory on the Rigol and Siglent scopes because they typically don't have enough processing power under the hood to do something usefull with it; you'll end up with the same pitfall Tektronix fell in when they designed the MDO3000/4000.

[tautech]

Don't get too wound up about deep memory on the Rigol and Siglent scopes because they typically don't have enough processing power under the hood to do something usefull with it....

How is 2Mpts FFT even possible without 'enough processing power under the hood' ? 

[nctnico]

Don't get too wound up about deep memory on the Rigol and Siglent scopes because they typically don't have enough processing power under the hood to do something usefull with it....

How is 2Mpts FFT even possible without 'enough processing power under the hood' ? 

Try to do 200Mpts FFT. If you have 200Mpts (just a number) of memory then why is FFT limited to 2Mpts? Processing power becomes important for doing anything related to waveform analysis (math) combined with deep memory.

[tautech]

Don't get too wound up about deep memory on the Rigol and Siglent scopes because they typically don't have enough processing power under the hood to do something usefull with it....

How is 2Mpts FFT even possible without 'enough processing power under the hood' ? 

Try to do 200Mpts FFT.

Why and what DSO can do/needs to do that ?

You made a statement implying some brands were short of processing power, where's your facts ?
Just assumptions ?

Like multiple Histograms for example:

[Fungus]

Try to do 200Mpts FFT.

Why and what DSO can do/needs to do that ?

I don't know about that but take a look at how many people here constantly bang on about how the Rigol MSO5000 is "sluggish" without ever stopping to think that it has 400Mpts of memory to deal with. If it's keeping up at all then it's doing a good job IMHO.

(they could always try reducing the memory depth a bit...)

[2N3055]

With FFT it's not only processing time. I pointed out that many times.

If you have 1 MPoint FFT, that means 2 Msps for 1 Mbins. For 5 MHz bandwidth, gate time will be 200 ms for single FFT just to take samples. So max 4-5 FFT per second even if FFT would be done in microsecond.
At that setting, you would have bin width of 4-5 Hz. 

If you wanted to take a look at 100Khz bandwith 1MPoint FFT it will have bin width of 95 mHz (0.095 Hz), and gate time of 10 sec. 200 Mpoint FFT at that setting would have 500 micro Hertz bins and gate time of 2000 seconds for single FFT.

Not very practical...

[nctnico]

Don't get too wound up about deep memory on the Rigol and Siglent scopes because they typically don't have enough processing power under the hood to do something usefull with it....

How is 2Mpts FFT even possible without 'enough processing power under the hood' ? 

Try to do 200Mpts FFT.

Why and what DSO can do/needs to do that ?

FFT is just one example but maybe not the best one. Think about doing searches, tracking math, etc, etc. Deep memory in itself is an enabler to catch elusive bugs quickly without the need for setting up special trigger conditions. For example looking at frequency variations, demodulating PWM and see where a switch mode power supply acts up. The possibilities are endless. All these require the data to be processed quickly in order to get a result in a reasonable amount of time. Otherwise it is not much use to have all that memory.

[vk6zgo]

This wasn't bought online from some dodgy site, but from a "reputable" plumbing supplier!

The Chinese are perfectly capable of building quality stuff, you just have to be willing to pay for it. Buying something "made locally" is more a garantee of being price-gouged than anything else.

That's just the point,---------it was not made locally, but in the PRC!  (The local manufacturers have either gone broke, been bought out by Chinese companies, or become importers)
I still got "price-gouged".

If you read the rest of my posting, you will note that I pointed out, in my experience, the expensive Chinese stuff is often junk, but not all the "El Cheapo" stuff is.
It's the "luck of the draw".

eg. Fluke's special "Asian market" multimeters are every bit as well built as the Fluke 87 so why does the 87V cost four times as much? Because flag-waving patriots keep on buying them, that's why. Fluke is happy to keep on pocketing that money.

[james_s]

I really have no issue buying Chinese made gear, plenty of it is as good as stuff made anywhere else.

What I do have a problem with is paying the inflated Western brand premium for imported products. I don't mind the price gouging if it's going toward salaries of people with a similar cost of living to my own. I'm not going to pay it just to give the shareholders dividends and a bigger bonus to the obscenely overpaid CEO.

[BravoV]

I don't mind the price gouging if it's going toward salaries of people with a similar cost of living to my own.

Just curious, do such products exist ?

[2N3055]

I really have no issue buying Chinese made gear, plenty of it is as good as stuff made anywhere else.

What I do have a problem with is paying the inflated Western brand premium for imported products. I don't mind the price gouging if it's going toward salaries of people with a similar cost of living to my own. I'm not going to pay it just to give the shareholders dividends and a bigger bonus to the obscenely overpaid CEO.

That is exactly a point. Western crooks, your countryman (and mine in my country) are getting something for cheap, putting brand on it and selling for premium. It is them that are swindling us. Not CHinese.
They simply make products to the spec. If you order good stuff from reputable source, you'll get good stuff. But it won't be dirt cheap, even in China. But still cheaper that made in EU. But greed is, what it is.
Western crooks search the globe for other crooks. Chinese, Japanese, German, Croatian, American...And vice versa.  And they all do their snake oil routine...

So for me it's either a Western product that really is worth it's money (be it in function, form, support or whatever) or I rather buy products like Rigol, Siglent ets (not A brands) for good enough products for normal amount of money. Or even something dirt cheap for pretty much one time use.... But with full knowledge what I bough, and no middleman.

[Fungus]

I have a couple of pretty expensive flashlights

I just bought a fancy Lumintop AA flashlight on Aliexpress and it's awesome quality inside and out. Cree LED, gold plated springs (plural) in the the base.  It came in a nice box with accessories and two spare o-rings. The way the button works to control all the modes is very well thought out, eg. always starting in "moonlight" mode (to not blind you), unless you do a long press in which case it goes to the mode it was in when you switched it off.

We should be celebrating the stuff they do well, not pointing at the $1 junk and saying "Yep, that's the Chinese for you!".

(although only certain forum members are doing that)

Remember: They produce that junk because we buy it.

[tautech]

Don't get too wound up about deep memory on the Rigol and Siglent scopes because they typically don't have enough processing power under the hood to do something usefull with it....

How is 2Mpts FFT even possible without 'enough processing power under the hood' ? 

Try to do 200Mpts FFT.

Why and what DSO can do/needs to do that ?

FFT is just one example but maybe not the best one. Think about doing searches, tracking math, etc, etc. Deep memory in itself is an enabler to catch elusive bugs quickly without the need for setting up special trigger conditions. For example looking at frequency variations, demodulating PWM and see where a switch mode power supply acts up. The possibilities are endless. All these require the data to be processed quickly in order to get a result in a reasonable amount of time. Otherwise it is not much use to have all that memory.

Again, there's more than one way to skin a cat !

Let's just look at your elusive bugs.
How would we even efficiently attempt to find them ?
What might they look like ?

Scroll through deep memory endlessly ?
You must be joking, instead you'd trigger on it and relate other channels to that trigger point so to find it's cause.
Deep memory is great but not needed for piss simple tasks but instead your most powerful tools are between your ears and the trigger suite available.
Simple stuff like Persistence and colored intensity grading is all that needed to show elusive bugs initially where you can quickly make trigger settings to properly catch the little bugger and then use Search to find if it's repetitive or not.
I don't need to tell you how to use a scope only that each of us has another way of skinning the same cat based entirely on the toolset at our disposal.

Shit you can do with a $500 scope.

[Wuerstchenhund]

You 'cleverly' left the R&S RTM3000 out.

A scope with up to 80Mpts memory, less decoding options (i.e. no FlexRay). Well, at least it's got 50ohms inputs

And not to mention Yokogawa has a whole bunch of interesting scopes.

Yokogawa's "whole bunch" consists of only two scope series (DLM3000 and DLM4000)  and both have been on the market for many years.

The DLM3000 can have up to 250Mpts as the SDS5kX but it only has 2.5GSa/s, does FFTs up to 1.25Mpts, and has less functionality, limited decode and trigger options.

The DLM4000 goes up to 250Mpts as well and has more decode options, but it, too, is limited to 500MHz BW, plus the max sample rate is limited to 1.25GSa/s, FFTs to 250k, and functionality and trigger options are more limited than on the SDS5kX.

And that's just the current offering. Many previous models had even lower sample rates.

Don't get me wrong, these scopes are certainly interesting. But they have been designed primarily for industrial applications like power electronics and production control systems, and not as general purpose scopes.

And on the lower end there is GW Instek too.

Yes, the GDS-2000E which has a lot smaller memory (10Mpts), smaller FFTs, and limited math, analysis, decode and triggers.

The only scope over 200MHz is the GDS-3000 and that offers a whooping 25kpts per channel. The rest of the specs read similar dire.

Let's be realistic, GW Instek has nothing in the class of scopes like the SDS5kX or DSO3kX, what it has is at most  comparable with other entry level scopes like the DSO-X1k/DSO-X2k, Rigol MSO5000 or the new Siglent SDS2kX+.

All in all lots of other choices besides Rigol and Siglent.

Yes, and none of them offer a similar amount of memory, functionality, trigger capabilities and features. Which has been my point.

Don't get too wound up about deep memory on the Rigol and Siglent scopes because they typically don't have enough processing power under the hood to do something usefull with it

Well, the SDS5104X I have currently access to begs to differ. For an embedded scope the platform seems pretty powerful, and the overall package is surprisingly good. There are some annoyances which could be improved, as well some things I really don't like, but right now I am not aware of any other scope in the market which would offer the same amount of capabilities and features in this class. I can't say I ever imagined saying this about a Siglent scope but here we are.

The other thing is that apparently Siglent will port the improvements that went into the SDS2kX+ to the SDS5kX as well.

you'll end up with the same pitfall Tektronix fell in when they designed the MDO3000/4000.

I doubt anyone could compete with Tektronix when it comes to backward architectures and horrible UI. That's after all their USP

[tautech]

Wuerstchenhund, have you got your mitts on a SDS2kX Plus yet ?

[Wuerstchenhund]

First, a lot of stuff outsourced to China is crappy simply because the Western company wanted the cheapest product no matter how much quality is compromised.

That's a very important point. In the end, what determines the crap-ness of a product is not the place of manufacture but the design goals of whoever came up with the product.

I guess the main reason why people equate "Made in China" (or any other cheap labor country) with "crap" is because true crap is usually too expensive to be manufactured in Western countries, while better quality products can be made in the West as well as in countries like China.

Second. People tend to make comparisons between fixed time points. Like, "Hey, Apple said Intel processors were crap only to embrace Intel five years later". They don't pay attention to the fact that when Apple used Power PC G3 and G4 the Intel counterparts were really poor. But Intel released much better processors later and they were indeed much better while the PowerPC camp stagnated.

Well, G3 and G4 were better on those carefully selected benchmarks by Apple. There's a good article about this:

https://lowendmac.com/2006/twice-as-fast-did-apple-lie-or-just-carefully-select-its-truths/

In reality (i.e. outside artificial benchmarks), PPC had already lost when the G4 came out. Back then when Apple made the move from 68k to PPC there was the might of IBM behind the platform, with IBM wanting to push it into the desktop PC space (there were quite a few PPC-based desktop PCs from several manufacturers). IBM then dropped the idea pretty quickly and only kept PowerPC as a cheaper variant of their POWER architecture for the RS/6000 platform running AIX and Linux. The independent PPC PC makers disappeared, and when the G5 arrived Apple was the last PPC vendor, only to move to intel after realizing what a dead end the platform was (even more so when the G5 was too hot and power hungry for laptop use).

It's not just PowerPC. There was Alpha AXP (created by DEC, killed by HP), SPARC (created by Sun) and MIPS (used by SGI and Siemens-Nixdorf), which all died more or less around the same time (aside from SPARC, which is still drowned slowly in boiling oil by Oracle). Of course it's sad that this diversity has died, but on the other side at no point computing power was so cheap as today.

Regarding the classic A-names. Does a basic instrument from them have a performance light years ahead of the current offering by the Chinese newcomers? Does it contain a lot of innovation? Does that innovation benefit the end user or does it just allow the A brand to cut costs while keeping the selling price stable?

In the scope class we're talking here the technology has been pretty much developed out years ago, and what we get are essentially iterations (more features, better screens) of previous models. This is especially true for A-brand scopes (aside from R&S' 10bit ADCs). Some of the premium they charge goes into better quality (especially software) as well as support, but a large part is simply because you pay for the name.

I think we all know that, for some reason, Chinese software is very poor and nowadays software may matter more than hardware. But has it improved in 5 years?

Chinese software was (and still often is) poor because it's seen as something that has no value (a thinking that is not uncommon in the West, too). Which is one reason for (or maybe a consequence of?) rampant piracy in China. If something has no value then it should not be surprising that no-one pays much attention to detail. This, too, can be seen on some Western products.

[Zucca]

Wuerstchenhund I missed you!

[Wuerstchenhund]

Wuerstchenhund, have you got your mitts on a SDS2kX Plus yet ?

No, simply because this is a class of scope neither myself nor my clients would buy (the lowest we buy are 500Mhz/1Ghz scopes a la DSOX4k).

Doesn't mean it's a bad scope (well, it seems to share a lot with the SDS5kx, plus got some improvements so it can't be that bad) just that it's not on my RADAR 

[nctnico]

And on the lower end there is GW Instek too.

Yes, the GDS-2000E which has a lot smaller memory (10Mpts), smaller FFTs, and limited math, analysis, decode and triggers.

You are wrong here. Actually it's 20Mpts of memory per channel in segmented mode. FFT is 1MPts. Math is freeform based on any trace so there is nothing limited to that except for having one math trace. It can do protocol triggering and search. Something else the GW Instek can do is statistic analysis on segmented recordings. You can define bins and then get an overview of what the distribution is for a measurement across the segments. These are rather clever oscilloscopes with quite a few nifty features. Actually there is a 2 channel 300MHz 'MDO' version too. With a simple key generator you can have the 300MHz bandwidth and spectrum analysis mode on the GDS/MSO models as well. It is true that GW Instek could do with a higher end oscilloscope in their portfolio but perhaps they don't see this as a segment they want to be in. I have the feeling GW Instek is big in the educational market (latest GDS-2000E firmware has added the Portugese language). BTW  it seems that GW Instek is also the OEM for quite a few pieces of Lecroy equipment.

[Wuerstchenhund]

And on the lower end there is GW Instek too.

Yes, the GDS-2000E which has a lot smaller memory (10Mpts), smaller FFTs, and limited math, analysis, decode and triggers.

You are wrong here. Actually it's 20Mpts of memory per channel in segmented mode.

Still 20Mpts vs 250Mpts.

FFT is 1MPts.

1Mpts vs 2Mpt.

Math is freeform based on any trace so there is nothing limited to that except for having one math trace.

One math trace vs two math traces (with plans to extend this to four I believe).

Math on the GDS2kE seems to be rather basic (addition, subtraction, multiplication, division), compared to the SDS5kX (which has addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, integration, differential, sqrt as well as a formula editor).

The SDS5kX also has a more measurements.

It can do protocol triggering and search.

Trigger and decode for I2C/SPI/UART/CAN/LIN vs Trigger & decode for I2C/I2S/SPI/UART/CAN/LIN/FlexRay/MIL1553B (and more are planned).

20k segments vs 100k segments.

2ns vs 400ps Peak Detect

+50ppm vs +1-3.5ppm timebase accuracy

And so on...

Actually there is a 2 channel 300MHz 'MDO' version too. With a simple key generator you can have the 300MHz bandwidth and spectrum analysis mode on the GDS/MSO models as well.

Well, that's pretty much just a more SA-like interface for FFT (the Tek MDO does the same).

And 300MHz are still below the 350MHz which is where the SDS5kX Series starts at.

These are rather clever oscilloscopes with quite a few nifty features.

I'm not saying the GWI scopes aren't good scopes, but my point remains that there's nothing out there at the moment which can match what the SDS5kX has to offer in this scope class (lower mid-range), and the fact remains that GWI simply has nothing above the upper entry-level market.

It is true that GW Instek could do with a higher end oscilloscope in their portfolio but perhaps they don't see this as a segment they want to be in. I have the feeling GW Instek is big in the educational market (latest GDS-2000E firmware has added the Portugese language).

Yes, they seem to have a place in schools, probably mostly down to their low cost and solid performance.

BTW  it seems that GW Instek is also the OEM for quite a few pieces of Lecroy equipment.

Indeed.

[nctnico]

Perhaps but the GW Instek MSO2104E costs less than half (including logic probes) compared to the SDS5k 4 channel entry model so it is logical there are differences. And no, the math on the GW Instek isn't basic. Again, it has freefrom math as well with a formula editor (or set the formula remotely). You should check it out because it is a very nice general purpose oscilloscope for R&D lab use. The UI is very productive as well . I used to own an Agilent MSO7104A but the GW Instek GDS2204E I bought later on turned out to be much easier to use so it quickly replaced the MSO7104A. Meanwhile I have an R&S RTM3004 on my bench but I'm still holding on to the GDS2204E because it can do a few useful things the RTM3004 can't.

And I'm not convinced there is nothing out there which can match the SDS5k. On paper and at first glance the specs may look great but you'd have to put some actual use on it (drill down deep) to see if everything holds up and works well in actual usage scenarios.