Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase

[rsjsouza]

Ahhh... the old 'scope battles... It's 2015 again, with the difference that Wuerst has banded with the Siglent team.

And I'm not convinced there is nothing out there which can match the SDS5k. On paper and at first glance the specs may look great but you'd have to put some actual use on it (drill down deep) to see if everything holds up and works well in actual usage scenarios.

Nico, I have to ask: have you ever used the SDS5k to doubt so fervently the testimony of someone else that says he has access to one? Or is this pure caution (and a bit of prejudice, considering your past bad experience) with Siglent?

@Wuerstchenhund : there is a lot of contradiction in what you are writing.  My own experience with Chinese engineers is that while being clever they have very little understanding of the purpose of a product. Just do as being told but in that process the little details that make or break a product are lost.

This is certainly true but not different from a Western engineer starting to work on a product for a field he doesn't really know well.

That is my experience as well, with the difference that the root cause is not always lack of experience but also resource allocation and pressure to meet deadlines. In other words, you may be totally immersed in a large design facility but only a few are capable of having an overall understanding of the whole product.

This also happens more often across transnational interactions, where secrecy is deliberately applied to prevent copycats.

My only comment on the whole China-US relations is that none of the players in this game are the "oppressed". Neither "First world" countries being squeezed out of markets they deliberately allowed the race to the bottom to happen, nor China being squeezed out of the high end market after deliberately leaving copycats roam freely and use state power to keep major technological companies afloat at any cost. It is a commercial and innovation war like any other - perhaps the new "cold war".

[nctnico]

Ahhh... the old 'scope battles... It's 2015 again, with the difference that Wuerst has banded with the Siglent team.

And I'm not convinced there is nothing out there which can match the SDS5k. On paper and at first glance the specs may look great but you'd have to put some actual use on it (drill down deep) to see if everything holds up and works well in actual usage scenarios.

Nico, I have to ask: have you ever used the SDS5k to doubt so fervently the testimony of someone else that says he has access to one? Or is this pure caution (and a bit of prejudice, considering your past bad experience) with Siglent?

Mostly caution based on what I have read about the SDS5k so far where I carefully weigh the information based on the background (sales or engineering) and  perceived experience from the person writing the information. The recent scopes from Siglent look mighty interesting but there are also some hints of cutting corners which may eventually get in the way of making full use of all the potential. Anyway, the memory management is a hard fail for me though so it is unlikely I'm going to ever put my hands on a Siglent SDS5k.

[Martin72]

Anyway, the memory management is a hard fail for me

Simple question : Why ?

[nctnico]

Anyway, the memory management is a hard fail for me

Simple question : Why ?

Using all the memory ('Capturing beyond the screen') is something I use very often because it makes the settings on the oscilloscope much less critical. This in turn translates to being able to focus on the circuit I'm designing while not having to think about how the oscilloscope is setup exactly. It just works so much easier. I used to have the first SDS2000 iteration oscilloscope which did had the setting to use all the memory but it would revert back to automatic by itself. This was very cumbersome to work with because I needed to set it back to full memory all the time.

[Martin72]

Ah, it´s only a thing of comfortable use, not a serious issue, that reassures me.

I used to have the first SDS2000 iteration oscilloscope which did had the setting to use all the memory but it would revert back to automatic by itself.

The 2000+/5000 series got the whole memory (200/250mpts) in the ms timebase range, in this range you can choose the depth, above not.
I don´t think they weren´t clever, it must have a good reason.

[nctnico]

Ah, it´s only a thing of comfortable use, not a serious issue, that reassures me.

Well, I would call lack of comfort a serious issue.    But if you aren't used to comfort you probably don't miss it 

[Wuerstchenhund]

Perhaps but the GW Instek MSO2104E costs less than half (including logic probes) compared to the SDS5k 4 channel entry model so it is logical there are differences. And no, the math on the GW Instek isn't basic. Again, it has freefrom math as well with a formula editor (or set the formula remotely). You should check it out because it is a very nice general purpose oscilloscope for R&D lab use. The UI is very productive as well . I used to own an Agilent MSO7104A but the GW Instek GDS2204E I bought later on turned out to be much easier to use so it quickly replaced the MSO7104A. Meanwhile I have an R&S RTM3004 on my bench but I'm still holding on to the GDS2204E because it can do a few useful things the RTM3004 can't.

I had to go for from what I could find on the GWI homepage and in the (very short and limited) spec sheets and manuals as I don't have access to any GWI scope around here.

I'm not doubting the GWI scopes are good scopes and worth their money but the matter of fact is that GWI has nothing in the 350MHz and above BW class so there's no point comparing it to the SDS5kX. Apples vs oranges.

If GWI ever makes anything in the 500MHz+ class then I'm sure I'll have a closer look, but right now anything below 500MHz (or 1GHz, really) is pretty much useless for us. Having said that, I still have the DS1054z I bought a while ago but that's essentially a toy I bought because I wanted to see how much scope I can get new for <$400 (although I have to say I have grown rather fond of this little thing!)

And I'm not convinced there is nothing out there which can match the SDS5k.

As I said, I'm open for suggestions of comparable(!) scopes which offer a similar feature set. So far I haven't seen one.

On paper and at first glance the specs may look great but you'd have to put some actual use on it (drill down deep) to see if everything holds up and works well in actual usage scenarios.

True, but this is no longer the SDS2000 of back then. Siglent has learnt so much that a product can't be released if the basic functionality doesn't work.

Don't forget that the SDS5kX is the result of work stemming from experienced engineers like Performa01 who contributed massively to the feature set of the scope and the technology shared with Siglent by LeCroy.

The SDS5104X that's currently sitting here (not bought by me) isn't bug free but it's core functionality works and works reliably, and better than many big brand scopes. There are things I would implement differently (especially regarding the UI) but at the end of the day it's a perfectly usable debugging scope with features that at this point in time can't be found in other comparable scopes. It's as simple as that.

@Wuerstchenhund : there is a lot of contradiction in what you are writing.  My own experience with Chinese engineers is that while being clever they have very little understanding of the purpose of a product. Just do as being told but in that process the little details that make or break a product are lost.

This is certainly true but not different from a Western engineer starting to work on a product for a field he doesn't really know well.

That is my experience as well, with the difference that the root cause is not always lack of experience but also resource allocation and pressure to meet deadlines. In other words, you may be totally immersed in a large design facility but only a few are capable of having an overall understanding of the whole product.

Indeed, and especially on large projects this is often not avoidable.

My only comment on the whole China-US relations is that none of the players in this game are the "oppressed". Neither "First world" countries being squeezed out of markets they deliberately allowed the race to the bottom to happen, nor China being squeezed out of the high end market after deliberately leaving copycats roam freely and use state power to keep major technological companies afloat at any cost. It is a commercial and innovation war like any other - perhaps the new "cold war".

How true!

Ahhh... the old 'scope battles... It's 2015 again, with the difference that Wuerst has banded with the Siglent team.

Yes, but then technology has moved on. I'm not sure I'd buy any scope with Siglent badge in 2015.

Also, just imagine how empty the test equipment forum would be if all the scope battle threads were removed

[nicnac117]

The guy origionally asked for advice on what of three scopes he mentioned to buy,not all this political shit !!!! For his attention I recently bought the RTB 2K-COM4 package promotion by Rhode& Schwarz and am more than impressed and happy with it . It comes with all options enabled  and 300 MB B/W;logic pods etc . A true general purpose package with serial decoding included. Its time ALL manufacturers included serial decoding in a general purpose scope as times have moved on and these protocols are common everday tools . PS I remember back in the day looking at a TEK 2465 or 2467 and thinking if only !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i could afford one . PS it also includes segmented memory/sig-gen /function gen .

[jemangedeslolos]

The guy origionally asked for advice on what of three scopes he mentioned to buy,not all this political shit !!!! For his attention I recently bought the RTB 2K-COM4 package promotion by Rhode& Schwarz and am more than impressed and happy with it . It comes with all options enabled  and 300 MB B/W;logic pods etc . A true general purpose package with serial decoding included. Its time ALL manufacturers included serial decoding in a general purpose scope as times have moved on and these protocols are common everday tools . PS I remember back in the day looking at a TEK 2465 or 2467 and thinking if only !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i could afford one . PS it also includes segmented memory/sig-gen /function gen .

euhhhh

I don't know if you are jocking or not but in fact you paid for it.
It is an R&S bundle promotion but the oscilloscope alone costs much less than the full bundle.
All manufacturers offer serial decoding included .... if you pay the full option bundle 

[nicnac117]

Catch a grip!!! I didnt say I got it for nothing !! .but it cost a lot less than the options full price normally . Check your facts before trying to be a smartass!!!

[Wuerstchenhund]

The guy origionally asked for advice on what of three scopes he mentioned to buy,not all this political shit !!!!

True, but he also got the only correct response in the first reply, which is to define what the requirements are. All three scopes (of which one isn't a model that even exists in this form so it's up to us to guess) are of completely different classes so to determine which one is "best" could easily be done by the throw of dice.

And since no further information by the OP has been forthcoming anyways it doesn't really matter if the discussion had stopped right there or deviated.

Besides, this isn't a one-to-one consultation, and stuff posted here may well be helpful or interesting for other people at some point.

Its time ALL manufacturers included serial decoding in a general purpose scope as times have moved on and these protocols are common everday tools.

True again but because serial decode is a common requirement the big brands use it to try to milk their customers even more.

[jemangedeslolos]

Catch a grip!!! I didnt say I got it for nothing !! .but it cost a lot less than the options full price normally . Check your facts before trying to be a smartass!!!

smartass ? Not really but if you insist i can try.

English is not my native language so maybe I misunderstood.
When I read you, it seems like R&S introduced a game chnger by offering a package with serial protocol decoding.
And this is not the case at all, all manufacturers offer serial decoding for several years, sometimes even without having to buy an additional option.
There are even oscilloscopes with serial decoding included that cost less than the R&S decoding option alone

And I am very aware of the prices thank you very much.
I was aware of the R&S bundle promotion before it was introduced thanks to Rich on this forum.
Great oscilloscope by the way, no problem on this, but nothing new either.

[nicnac117]

Ok Fair enough about the language ! You did pick me up wrong !! I was saying that the RTB2K-COM4 promotion package was good value whereas the normal pricing of the options is prohibitive . I was also saying that all the options should be standard in a modern scope or at least reasonably priced . Ihave a HMO1232 which does nothave any options . It would cost more than the scope to add all the protocols.

[utogaria]

[..........]

Lots of people calling Tek inferior with no supporting evidence, which is why I am trying not to call anything except the child labor china garbage inferior as we all know that's true.  I think a lot of this just depends on personal preference or what you used at your first EE job.

Stop bashing China without providing any proof. Almost all your replies contain political virus and biases. Most of us engineers come here to search for truth, not your political opinion. If you really hate China that much, you should strip your clothes, and go back to live like a caveman. Good luck!

Edited by gnif: removed abusive comment.

[james_s]

Stop bashing China without providing any proof. Almost all your replies contain political virus and biases. Most of us engineers come here to search for truth, not your political opinion. If you really hate China that much, you should strip your clothes, and go back to live like a caveman. Good luck!

*sigh*

You just necroposted in a thread that has been dead for well over a year to rant about a comment from a long time member who is sometimes controversial but overall valued and respected. A bit of advice when it comes to old threads, unless you have something relevant and technical to contribute just let them rest in peace. Congratulations, you have a whole 3 posts since joining and already one of them is an irrelevant rant that contributes absolutely nothing. Also it contains a personal attack against a member here and that is strictly forbidden, too many of those incidents will get you banned.

Edited by gnif: removed abusive comment from the quote

[nigelwright7557]

We now have amazing oscilloscopes in the sub-$400 range where Tek would have us paying $4000. How is that sad? 

You can pick up USB PC scopes on ebay for £20 ish.
OK for audio but crepe for high speed stuff.

Decide what max frequency you want to see, multiply tha  by 25 then use that for samples/second you need.
Decide what functions you need and add those to shopping list.

I did some model railway DCC 10KHZ digital work and the £20 scope was brilliant.