Author Topic: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase  (Read 4376 times)

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Offline jake111

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2020, 06:34:01 am »
I don't think the consumers demand the prices, I think it's a race to the bottom when you are copying something.  Everyone is wise to the quality issues that will always exist in a product when it comes from solely from china (vs. being designed, sourced, and QA'd by US, EU, etc) and therefore are not willing to pay much for it.  Since there are multiple china copiers, they all race to the bottom which means reducing quality as much as possible (and in turn increasing profit margins) without losing too many sales.

Because more innovative Chinese companies making good stuff are banned in the US? Like ZTE and Huawei and DJI on the brink?

And FYI, Chinese clone is not what you think it was 20 years ago. I work for a company funded and founded by Chinese government serving as an IP source for innovative Chinese companies, and we do all sorts of higher end R&D.

We do clone Western technologies, but we basically stop at the idea level. You have something, we must have it. And that's where it ends. How it is done will be completely different, and the final product will not even resemble each other.

So you work for a company funded and founded by communists, who "must have" (i.e. steal) anything that anyone else has.  And you're proud of this?

This chinese "completely different" is still garbage, and it appears that your perception of resemblance is also rather.... unreliable.

I worked with the chinese counterparts of US/EU and other Asian regions on and off for 10 years, attempting to teach them how you should actually design something.

I do not miss that nightmare.  My impression was that chinese EE's get their degrees at something like the dollar store.  My experience, and this was with hundreds of engineers over this time, was that they were impatient, rude, not interested in actually understanding something, and simply wanted to get to the finish line as quickly as possible, honesty and integrity be damned.

Sorry to do it to you.  No offense intended.  Except for the communist part  :-DD
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2020, 06:36:43 am »
Never before have we had the choice of such good equipment and at affordable prices.

You have to understand, that some are just too young (+heavily brainwashed) to be aware that in the old "glorious days"  ::) say like from 70s to late 90s, the idea of owning a "used" oscilloscope, even low end one was almost impossible for electronic beginners or enthusiasts, let alone buying a new spanking scope, dmm, logic analyzer and etc.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 06:38:36 am by BravoV »
 

Offline jake111

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2020, 06:42:50 am »
Never before have we had the choice of such good equipment and at affordable prices.

You have to understand, that some are just too young (+heavily brainwashed) to be aware that in the old "glorious days"  ::) say like from 70s to late 90s, the idea of owning a "used" oscilloscope, even low end one was almost impossible for electronic beginners or enthusiasts, let alone buying a new spanking scope, dmm, logic analyzer and etc.


This is a good point and it's also important to note the stark difference between the needs of a hobbyist vs. someone who is going to be using the machine day in and day out for hours at a time.  If your total use of a tool is only a few dozen hours over its lifetime, it would not make sense to buy a high end tool unless you have money to burn and do it on principle.  I remember when the digitizing scopes first started appearing on the used market, as tantalizing as they were, they were still cost prohibitive to all but the most elitist bastard (see here's my past jealousy coming out) of a ham operator and he would bring it to the meet once in a while and let everyone drool over it... but not on it   :-BROKE
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2020, 06:48:37 am »
Never before have we had the choice of such good equipment and at affordable prices.

You have to understand, that some are just too young (+heavily brainwashed) to be aware that in the old "glorious days"  ::) say like from 70s to late 90s, the idea of owning a "used" oscilloscope, even low end one was almost impossible for electronic beginners or enthusiasts, let alone buying a new spanking scope, dmm, logic analyzer and etc.


This is a good point and it's also important to note the stark difference between the needs of a hobbyist vs. someone who is going to be using the machine day in and day out for hours at a time.  If your total use of a tool is only a few dozen hours over its lifetime, it would not make sense to buy a high end tool unless you have money to burn and do it on principle.  I remember when the digitizing scopes first started appearing on the used market, as tantalizing as they were, they were still cost prohibitive to all but the most elitist bastard (see here's my past jealousy coming out) of a ham operator and he would bring it to the meet once in a while and let everyone drool over it... but not on it   :-BROKE

Indirectly, you're also agreeing that, for "youngsters" that are starting to venture into electronics, like most of us here when we were young, isn't the current situation better ?

Or you still insist that "your" younger generation, have to use stuffs labelled "PROUDLY MADE IN USA", and with the pride and attitude like .... screw those cheap clone Chinese bastards stuff, ain't needed it here !!!...  in order just to learn ?  >:D
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 06:54:19 am by BravoV »
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2020, 06:52:33 am »
So you work for a company funded and founded by communists, who "must have" (i.e. steal) anything that anyone else has.

Why don't the West license us what we need? Money is not a problem.

And you're proud of this?

Yes, I love this job enough to quit my 6 year stay in US and give up my approved and wait list pending green card.

This chinese "completely different" is still garbage, and it appears that your perception of resemblance is also rather.... unreliable.

Bigger difference than Uncle Sam's "peacekeeping" and "invasion".

I worked with the chinese counterparts of US/EU and other Asian regions on and off for 10 years, attempting to teach them how you should actually design something.

Presumably your level doesn't grant you access to good Chinese engineers. After all, birds flock by feather.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2020, 06:55:21 am »
Never before have we had the choice of such good equipment and at affordable prices.

You have to understand, that some are just too young (+heavily brainwashed) to be aware that in the old "glorious days"  ::) say like from 70s to late 90s, the idea of owning a "used" oscilloscope, even low end one was almost impossible for electronic beginners or enthusiasts, let alone buying a new spanking scope, dmm, logic analyzer and etc.
I know that only too well as at one time I was one too !

As one ages and matures the blinkers come off and prejudices change as when I was young we all despised Jap crap but look at them now. Some 40 years later and China has passed that point too except for their low end garbage but doesn't every country produce some ?

The corporates must take some share of the blame in sending production offshore to lower wage production in the search to provide 'adequate' returns for their shareholders and CEO's.  ::)
There's no simple answer other than for each country to stick to their knitting and continue to do what they do best. In many ways we all need each other and for mankind's greater good and global peace and harmony the more trade we share with one another the better.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2020, 07:28:09 am »
Indirectly, you're also agreeing that, for "youngsters" that are starting to venture into electronics, like most of us here when we were young, isn't the current situation better ?

It's absolutely better, but it's not sustainable. It's a bit like burning fossil fuels, from a performance standpoint they're quite unbeatable, energy density, portability, ease of use, nothing else comes close. Like the cheap goods imported from places that can build them cheaply it's not sustainable, eventually the gravy train will run out and it will be time to pay the piper. It's fantastic that I can buy all sorts of cool gadgets and gear that are better and more capable than I could have possibly dreamed having when I was young, it's absolutely incredible. The cost though is that formerly great companies like Tektronix, Fluke, Hewlett-Packard and many, many others are mere shells of their former selves or in many cases gone entirely. Many other once very high quality products have been cost engineered to compete and as someone else said in many cases you can't even choose to buy quality anymore.

I'm not necessarily crusading for a return to the old days, indeed I would be giving up a lot to do that, but this can't go on forever. We can't make everything insanely cheap and still have jobs that pay a good living. We can't all make a living by skimming off of work outsourced to people who live off a tiny fraction of the income our lifestyle requires. As I said, we're trading our long term prosperity for short term gains, things are great right now, but job after job that formerly earned a good stable living are gone. Between that and ever greater automation society does not require anywhere near the labor that it once did and this trend continues to accelerate. If we choose to continue this path we are eventually going to have some hard choices to make as we end up with a vast surplus of people needing to earn a living relative to the number of jobs needed to support our society.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2020, 07:28:43 am »
As one ages and matures the blinkers come off and prejudices change as when I was young we all despised Jap crap but look at them now. Some 40 years later and China has passed that point too except for their low end garbage but doesn't every country produce some ?

Remembered my grand-dad (RIP) fought Japanese in WWII, he lost few of his family members killed by the Japs, don't ask me how he reacted whenever he saw product made in Japan when in 70s, my dad used to go facepalming whenever his dad started the anti-Japs speech everytime.  :palm:

He lived in the era before WWII, and he told us, that US made stuffs were cheap crap in those era, better use European made, go figure.  :-DD


The corporates must take some share of the blame in sending production offshore to lower wage production in the search to provide 'adequate' returns for their shareholders and CEO's.  ::)

There's no simple answer other than for each country to stick to their knitting and continue to do what they do best.

Well, some countries excel in doing their "knitting" and keep improving, some are just way too arrogant living in denial and way too complacent, and drifted too far without realizing it even today.

Just look at Germany, practically the whole country was obliterated after WWII, and with their auto industry today, and the Japs simply still can not beat them at the top high margin market, even after so many decades, even with Japanese samurai spirit of hardworking habit/attitude.  :o

Offline james_s

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2020, 07:33:27 am »
Remembered my grand-dad (RIP) fought Japanese in WWII, he lost few of his family members killed by the Japs, don't ask me how he reacted whenever he saw product made in Japan when in 70s, my dad used to go facepalming whenever his dad started the anti-Japs speech everytime.  :palm:

I don't think it's possible to relate to someone who has been through the hell of a war like that. I suspect once you've been conditioned that the Japanese (or whoever) are the enemy and spent several years fighting to stay alive it's probably really hard to just turn that off. The war was long over and the Japanese were by then our allies but it's probably hard to forgive and forget an experience like that. I'd guess the same is true for them.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2020, 07:33:49 am »
We can't make everything insanely cheap and still have jobs that pay a good living. We can't all make a living by skimming off of work outsourced to people who live off a tiny fraction of the income our lifestyle requires.

If we choose to continue this path we are eventually going to have some hard choices to make as we end up with a vast surplus of people needing to earn a living relative to the number of jobs needed to support our society.

Darwin says otherwise.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2020, 07:45:58 am »
Remembered my grand-dad (RIP) fought Japanese in WWII, he lost few of his family members killed by the Japs, don't ask me how he reacted whenever he saw product made in Japan when in 70s, my dad used to go facepalming whenever his dad started the anti-Japs speech everytime.  :palm:

I don't think it's possible to relate to someone who has been through the hell of a war like that. I suspect once you've been conditioned that the Japanese (or whoever) are the enemy and spent several years fighting to stay alive it's probably really hard to just turn that off. The war was long over and the Japanese were by then our allies but it's probably hard to forgive and forget an experience like that. I'd guess the same is true for them.

Exactly, thats why I keep wondering why human never learn from the history.

Especially looking at current scene today, people and especially few leaders or nations, that keep pumping out the hatred globally.

Some of the youngsters need to read the history of the making of Adolf Hitler, he was basically "exploiting" the xenophobia masquerading as "nationalistic" for his own ambition, its one of the fastest, easiest & cheapest political campaign method to get mass support and "hysteria", as we've seen today.

Its like getting a DC low voltage from AC mains, with just a single resistor and a diode.  :palm:

Fyi, students majoring in Politics, know this very well as its taught at 1st semester.  ::)

Offline tautech

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2020, 07:55:23 am »
As one ages and matures the blinkers come off and prejudices change as when I was young we all despised Jap crap but look at them now. Some 40 years later and China has passed that point too except for their low end garbage but doesn't every country produce some ?

Remembered my grand-dad (RIP) fought Japanese in WWII, he lost few of his family members killed by the Japs, don't ask me how he reacted whenever he saw product made in Japan when in 70s, my dad used to go facepalming whenever his dad started the anti-Japs speech everytime.  :palm:

He lived in the era before WWII, and he told us, that US made stuffs were cheap crap in those era, better use European made, go figure.  :-DD


The corporates must take some share of the blame in sending production offshore to lower wage production in the search to provide 'adequate' returns for their shareholders and CEO's.  ::)

There's no simple answer other than for each country to stick to their knitting and continue to do what they do best.

Well, some countries excel in doing their "knitting" and keep improving, some are just way too arrogant living in denial and way too complacent, and drifted too far without realizing it even today.

Just look at Germany, practically the whole country was obliterated after WWII, and with their auto industry today, and the Japs simply still can not beat them at the top high margin market, even after so many decades, even with Japanese samurai spirit of hardworking habit/attitude.  :o
Yes the world evolves and every country today needs to find its niche of excellence or the very best they can be. While goods can be easily dispersed around the globe economies will continue on this path of evolution.

Those of us that have lived in close or extended families have the benefit of our predecessors life experience and wisdom the knowledge of how different things were in the past. I live 100m from where my father was born and he was just 6 when electricity came to this area some 85 years ago and his mom saw both wars, the first flight, refrigeration, motor vehicles, moon landing, color TV etc etc all in her lifetime. That I got to share some 40yrs of mine with hers was a privilege.
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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2020, 08:15:02 am »
So you work for a company funded and founded by communists, who "must have" (i.e. steal) anything that anyone else has.  And you're proud of this?

Well, you could also argue the same for someone working for a company in a country which built a large part of it's military might and achievements on technology 'obtained' from Germany after WW2, and which since then has gone around the world to wreak havoc and enact regime change, which has been engaged in torture without repercussions, which (in violation of it's own Constitution) is still incarcerating people without any conviction, and which is happy to do business with the guys who funded one of the worst terrorist attacks on its own people. ;)

But politics is a no-no here for good reason so we should leave it at that.

Quote
This chinese "completely different" is still garbage, and it appears that your perception of resemblance is also rather.... unreliable.

You might want to read some newer scientific papers about leading high tech research, and if you do then pay attention to the author's names. You'll find surprisingly large number of Chinese names there.

The idea that all the Chinese are capable off is copying Western stuff is naive. There is *a lot* of high tech research going on, not just in electronics but also in other areas such as genetics. There is a wide consensus that, on it's current course, the West will be left behind in pretty much every technological and scientific field by China.

Also, not everything the Chinese have was 'stolen' (i.e. obtained through some legally and morally questionable means), there are lots of cases where the Chinese simply invested in technology no-one else was willing to.

Quote
I worked with the chinese counterparts of US/EU and other Asian regions on and off for 10 years, attempting to teach them how you should actually design something.

I do not miss that nightmare.  My impression was that chinese EE's get their degrees at something like the dollar store.  My experience, and this was with hundreds of engineers over this time, was that they were impatient, rude, not interested in actually understanding something, and simply wanted to get to the finish line as quickly as possible, honesty and integrity be damned.

Sounds like you managed a sweat shop ;)

I worked with Japanese for many years, and more recently also with Chinese. Personally, I find the Chinese culture (which is very top-down and surprisingly risk-averse) often a bit difficult, and due to their culture they don't necessarily learn the same way as Westerners do (I found the Japanese culture much easier to deal with). But there were some really clever people amongst them, exceptionally capable, very intelligent.

China's education system is nothing like for example India's dollar store degree factories, which are mostly designed to circumvent the American H1B visa system to export low cost labor to the US. The Chinese government sees education as critical, and quite a few Chinese universities are among the top 50 or top 100 universities in the world.

Don't fall into the trap to believe that if only we prevented the Chinese to 'steal' our IP that we could stop their technological and scientific progress. Ain't going to work.

You better get used to the idea that China might well become the global leader in technology and science within the next 20 years or so, and if that happens then we have only ourselves to blame.


Just look at Germany, practically the whole country was obliterated after WWII, and with their auto industry today,

That is true, but there are dark clouds ahead for Germany as most of the areas it's strong are traditional industries (like automotive, tooling/manufacturing machinery, aviation or defense). Of course there is also cutting edge work going on but in general because of low funding and short-sighted investment strategies Germany has lost or sold-off valuable industries even before they really took off (i.e. mobile phones). In addition, modern day Germany is very risk-averse, and there is very little support (and pretty much no political apetite, aside from the occasional zinger) for start-ups. Which means many Germans are going to more supportive countries to work or found their start-up, like for example the U.S.

 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 08:34:19 am by Wuerstchenhund »
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2020, 08:23:35 am »
You better get used to the idea that China might well become the global leader in technology and science within the next 20 years or so.
I think it will take longer because without freedom of speech there is no freedom of mind. Without freedom of mind you never invent something new. Being clever at copying only gets you so far. Look at Siglent and Rigol: both are basically copying ideas and not innovating. OTOH MicSig does show that a Chinese company can come up with a radically different product in the form of a tablet oscilloscope which has been well thought out, well tested and as a result just works -period-.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2020, 08:28:29 am »
Without freedom of mind you never invent something new.

True, but for 1% of disruptive work you need 99% of iterative works to get it done properly, and that alone is a huge market.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2020, 08:29:26 am »
Don't fall into the trap to believe that if only we prevented the Chinese to 'steal' our IP that we could stop their technological and scientific progress. Ain't going to work.

You better get used to the idea that China might well become the global leader in technology and science within the next 20 years or so, and if that happens then we have only ourselves to blame.

Its just sad, especially for the next generations, lots of wasteful resources, money, time, efforts just to build the bad campaigns, generate hatred and etc, instead of focusing and gearing up the youngsters for the future, maybe like drastically improving the education, wellfare and etc, for these kids to face the harsh and unknown future, at least this brings more hope.

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2020, 09:19:53 am »
You better get used to the idea that China might well become the global leader in technology and science within the next 20 years or so.
I think it will take longer because without freedom of speech there is no freedom of mind. Without freedom of mind you never invent something new.

The first part is demonstrably false, as evidenced (not only) by the number of intellectuals in societies where freedom of speech was/is limited (and most political change came from what you call "freedom of mind"), but also by the ingenuity shown of those that lived under such restrictive conditions.

If you look at Russia for example, a country where "freedom of speech" has been very limited through most of its history, the list of things invented or discovered there cover a wide range of areas including advanced electrical and mechanical engineering, materials, math, physics and so on, a lot of it even world-leading.

I've worked with some Russian technology and while the way they approach things is often very different from how it would be by a Westerner, there was a lot of ingenuity in the designs.

The same is true in most "non-free" countries. China is no exception.

Quote
Being clever at copying only gets you so far. Look at Siglent and Rigol: both are basically copying ideas and not innovating.

Well, he same could be said for most (non-electric) cars, after all the basic concept (a box with four wheels outside, one wheel inside, some chairs and something revolving at either end of the vehicle) is over a century old.

This isn't much different with scopes, especially the ones at the lower end of the market. Most engineers simply want something square-ish with a screen on the left of the front, knobs on the right of the front and connectors on the bottom of the front, which shows them wiggly lines. When something like a standard scope such as the Siglent SDS1000X can be assembled from standard components, why re-invent the wheel? In this market, the only area where a manufacturer can really add some value is via the software (i.e. functionality, UX) and by offering a low price. Naturally, the Chinese can easily do "low price" because the labor costs are way lower than in Western countries. Functionality however is more difficult, so it takes some time to develop these skills. UX is even more difficult, so getting this right takes even longer. Quite a normal, iterative process for a country like China.

Siglent has put a lot of ideas into the new SDS5kX and SDS2kX+ (god, I hate that naming scheme!), many which you can't find on comparable competitors' scopes, including from the A-brands.

Rigol is even further, they already have their own ASIC which is quite an achievement.

Saying Rigol and Siglent aren't innovating is ignoring reality.

Quote
OTOH MicSig does show that a Chinese company can come up with a radically different product in the form of a tablet oscilloscope which has been well thought out, well tested and as a result just works -period-.

I never used one of the MicSigs but I remember that the early versions has a number of bugs, and it took a while for MicSig to fix them.

But yes, MicSig is another example of Chinese ingenuity.


Don't fall into the trap to believe that if only we prevented the Chinese to 'steal' our IP that we could stop their technological and scientific progress. Ain't going to work.

You better get used to the idea that China might well become the global leader in technology and science within the next 20 years or so, and if that happens then we have only ourselves to blame.

Its just sad, especially for the next generations, lots of wasteful resources, money, time, efforts just to build the bad campaigns, generate hatred and etc, instead of focusing and gearing up the youngsters for the future, maybe like drastically improving the education, wellfare and etc, for these kids to face the harsh and unknown future, at least this brings more hope.

Indeed, but I guess that's what we deserve for making sure a handful of people are wealthy beyond their wildest dreams while investments in research and especially education have been widely reduced. The consequences are already visible, especially in politics.

I blame my generation for that.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 09:22:38 am by Wuerstchenhund »
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2020, 09:45:40 am »
@Wuerstchenhund : there is a lot of contradiction in what you are writing.  My own experience with Chinese engineers is that while being clever they have very little understanding of the purpose of a product. Just do as being told but in that process the little details that make or break a product are lost. AFAIK people in Russia and East Europe had a lot more freedom to read & learn whatever people liked so could develop themselves more broadly compared to the Chinese restrictive educational system which actively suppresses free thinking and creativity.

Back to oscilloscopes: What is special about Rigol's ASIC and Siglent's features in the SDS5kX? AFAIK the Rigol ASIC is missing several basic features and AFAICS the Siglent SDS5kX doesn't have any feature you won't be able to find on an A-brand and in many cases the A-brand will have a more polished performance (be it at a higher price).
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 09:58:32 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2020, 10:03:15 am »
Freedom of the speech is most misquoted and misunderstood term....

Freedom of the speech is basically "freedom of POLITICAL speech".

It has no bearing on people who don't care about politics.
Back in old socialist Yugoslavia, most of the people didn't care about freedom of political beliefs. What "normal", nonpolitical people care is food, shelter, having good life for them and their families. They want to have fun, to love, to dance, to work and have normal life.
Nobody cared to have discussions about what political system is better etc.. Except people interested in politics..

OTOH, science and engineering, that was free, and what was valued was results.

Speaking of, USA is NOT a country that has freedom of speech. If it were, there would be communist and socialist presidential candidate, too.
Nobody has to vote for them, but they should be there. USA political system is still based on Civil War: Republicans (South) and Democrats (North). Both hardcore capitalist with same agenda. And a notion that every person deserves not to be hungry, that education and medical care should be included in taxes people pay (so taxpayers money don't go to fund wars to make military-industrial complex even richer than they are, but are instead used to help people who are paying the bill) is "them commies" idea. Not smart, and humanistic, but bad...

There is no freedom and uncensored thinking in USA on country scale. It is equally controlled and not free as in China, Russia or something else. Just different version of dogma.

But still, there are so many beautifully smart, great intellectuals with so many great ideas coming from USA. Why ? Because, human mind cannot be shackled. Not  in USA, not in Russia, not in China. Exceptional individuals will be exceptional. In any country. And stupid ones will be stupid. In any country.
 
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Offline BravoV

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2020, 10:17:09 am »
Speaking of, USA is NOT a country that has freedom of speech. If it were, there would be communist and socialist presidential candidate, too.

:-+  :clap: .. LOL .. you're basically poking where it hurts most, the "core" on what those believers stand for, aka "fake freedom of speech" .

Beware though, some will hate you for that.  :-DD :-DD :-DD


But still, there are so many beautifully smart, great intellectuals with so many great ideas coming from USA. Why ? Because, human mind cannot be shackled. Not  in USA, not in Russia, not in China.

Some have strong believe, even down to their bones, that if you're born and grew up, say in Russia or China, "AUTOMATICALLY" you're stupid, not creative, inferior and etc.  :-DD
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2020, 10:22:31 am »
As one ages and matures the blinkers come off and prejudices change as when I was young we all despised Jap crap but look at them now. Some 40 years later and China has passed that point too except for their low end garbage but doesn't every country produce some ?

Remembered my grand-dad (RIP) fought Japanese in WWII, he lost few of his family members killed by the Japs, don't ask me how he reacted whenever he saw product made in Japan when in 70s, my dad used to go facepalming whenever his dad started the anti-Japs speech everytime.  :palm:

The reason most of the LCDs have failed on early Fluke multimeters (eg. the 8020) is because John Fluke refused to buy LCD modules from Japan.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2020, 10:29:17 am »
Back to oscilloscopes: What is special about Rigol's ASIC and Siglent's features in the SDS5kX? AFAIK the Rigol ASIC is missing several basic features and AFAICS the Siglent SDS5kX doesn't have any feature you won't be able to find on an A-brand and in many cases the A-brand will have a more polished performance (be it at a higher price).
Special is that it is their own design, that according to many "them Chinese don't know how to do".
Special is that they made something that A brands ask you much higher price for, for basically  same instrument.
Special is that technology gap (that still existed only few years ago) is narrowing down to differences in style, not capabilities.
Special is that 90% of scope market is NOT high end scopes and Chinese are ruling that market (now on price, but within few years on features too). Don't trust me on this. Just take a look at A brands. They are killing off their lower ranges of products, or cleverly regurgitating old technology but still keeping higher prices, riding it out for as long as it goes....

Special is that if it were up to A brands, entry level scope would still cost same as a small car, mid range one same as a small house...
And VERY FEW of us here would be able to afford one...
There are many, many poor US citizens that wouldn't be able to afford scope where it not for Chinese. If anything, Chinese cheap T&M equipment is enabler for USA people to popularize technology...
 

Online vk6zgo

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2020, 10:31:46 am »
It's not China, some very high quality well built stuff comes out of China, they are certainly capable of producing it.

The problem is US (and other relatively wealthy) consumers demand the lowest prices, so stuff gets cost reduced to the hilt and built by the lowest bidder in places with the cheapest labor capable of doing the work and currently that's mostly China. As long as people demand goods for less than someone with a similar cost of living could build them for sale, this will be happening.

It is largely not the consumers, but the buyers for the large stores who led the stampede to junk.
I would love to go to a whitegoods shop & buy, say, an electric kettle which :-
(1)Worked properly
(2) Lasted for longer than 6-8months before expiring gracelessly.

I tried going "up market" & buying a well known brand.
At $A75, it should have been markedly better, but, no!

It lasted less time than the El Cheapo!(it was also made in the PRC, maybe in the same factory.)

Obviously, the same performance, coupled to one third of the price is a powerful reason to buy the cheaper one.
I eventually found a "unicorn"!----- an El Cheapo which works well, & is still doing so, "a year & a bit" later!

There are all sorts of "Chinese" products, from tne $600 "Wertheim" vacuum cleaner which purported to be "German designed", & wouldn't run for more than 15 minutes without shutting down from overheating, to the "Ozito" drum type vacuum cleaner at $50, which takes anything I throw at it without a hiccup, (but with a lot of noise), & which has already done more work than the Wertheim achieved all the time we had it.

Why would I buy poorly performing "upmarket junk".
A couple of years back, I bought a "vanity cabinet" for the bathroom, at a fairly stiff price.

This included a handbasin with a fancy combined hot/cold tap, an overflow vent to prevent overfilling the basin, complete with a nice chrome trim, & a push down/pop up "plug" assembly.

The push down/pop up thing failed first, when the spring got tired.
That wasn't much of a problem so we could ignore it.
Next, the "trim ring" around the overflow went green--bye, bye, chrome!

The best was left till last, when the fancy tap started leaking through pinholes corroded through the chrome & whatever sh*t metal it was made of.
By comparison, the taps which were replaced were around 50 years old, were made of brass, & had no "pinholes"!

This wasn't bought online from some dodgy site, but from a "reputable" plumbing supplier!


« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 10:36:40 am by vk6zgo »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2020, 11:05:52 am »
This wasn't bought online from some dodgy site, but from a "reputable" plumbing supplier!

The Chinese are perfectly capable of building quality stuff, you just have to be willing to pay for it. Buying something "made locally" is more a garantee of being price-gouged than anything else.

eg. Fluke's special "Asian market" multimeters are every bit as well built as the Fluke 87 so why does the 87V cost four times as much? Because flag-waving patriots keep on buying them, that's why. Fluke is happy to keep on pocketing that money.
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Need advice on Oscilloscope purchase
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2020, 11:09:50 am »
Back to oscilloscopes: What is special about Rigol's ASIC and Siglent's features in the SDS5kX? AFAIK the Rigol ASIC is missing several basic features and AFAICS the Siglent SDS5kX doesn't have any feature you won't be able to find on an A-brand and in many cases the A-brand will have a more polished performance (be it at a higher price).
Special is that it is their own design, that according to many "them Chinese don't know how to do".
Special is that they made something that A brands ask you much higher price for, for basically  same instrument.
Special is that technology gap (that still existed only few years ago) is narrowing down to differences in style, not capabilities.
Special is that 90% of scope market is NOT high end scopes and Chinese are ruling that market (now on price, but within few years on features too). Don't trust me on this. Just take a look at A brands. They are killing off their lower ranges of products, or cleverly regurgitating old technology but still keeping higher prices, riding it out for as long as it goes....
Well... not all A-brands are milking old technology. Only Tektronix and Keysight seem to do that. And you basically underlined what I already wrote: the Chinese brands aren't there yet. For heavy duty professional use you need that little extra that is still lacking in almost all of the Chinese scopes. Dig a little bit deeper and you quickly learn a feature is there but slow, limited and/or cumbersome to use which kills productivity. Siglent is getting close but they'll need at least another iteration to get more features accellerated by hardware instead of doing it slow in software. But maybe they don't even care.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 11:21:36 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 


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