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| Need suggestion to select an (1GHz) Oscilloscope (Tek 5 series Vs R&S RTO2000) |
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| udhay_cit:
--- Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on March 05, 2020, 02:25:30 pm ---Well, what are you going to do with it? You merely list features of which some have little relevance in a practical sense so it's not a lot to go on. --- End quote --- Sorry. Its my fault. I have to start with my specification. We are making transformer monitoring systems for substation and power generation systems where we have lot of EMI problems. This 1GHz scope we mainly looking for EMI troubleshooting. I know that DSO itself is not sufficient enough for EMI troubleshooting, but we need higher bandwidth scope for calibrate our EFT and surge generator We have EMV-Langer surge injection probe (low voltage, high rise time), so that we can monitor the EFT & surge effect of PCB while in operation. We yet to start the high speed microprocessor design in future. This scope may be helpful in future fro this. --- Quote ---Good if you like it. Our engineers didn't because it's not following common logic (i.e. disabling a channel by dragging it into the recycle bin). --- End quote --- You have a dedicated button also for doing the same, but I agree, that one is a useless feature --- Quote ---Yeah, that's what you pay for the name. Tek believes the fact that they were the number one scope maker when analoog scopes were a thing some 30 years ago is still worth something when they have been making some of the worst digital scopes in history. And the MSO5 isn't a lot better, we one in for assessment a couple of times and still found embarrassing bugs that should not exist in a product at this price. There's a reason Tektronix has seen dwindling sales for about two decades while scopes sales mostly went to Keysight and LeCroy. --- End quote --- Oh no :-[. I don't know much about tektronix scopes. I'm using agilent 3000, 100MHz. Really they have lot of bugs & failures? Is it the reason lot of encore products are available in Tek website. --- Quote --- No, if you don't treat the scope like a PC and install crappy software on it. --- End quote --- Yes. I can understand, we have to treat like a scope not like a laptop PC. --- Quote --- And in addition, R&S actually provides real support where Tek often stalls and is unwilling to fix (or even acknowledge) issues with its products. That's at least the case in Europe and the U.S. (who knows, maybe Tek India is different). --- End quote --- Really thank you for this valuable point. Before comparing the spec, we need consider this point. I say that they are giving really a good support before buying the instrument. I really don't know about after sales or service support. --- Quote --- Yes, This is pretty much standard for most 1GHz scope. They all come with passive probes which are pretty poor for signals over say 300MHz in general anyways. I really get stuck up. This is why I thinking of about Tek. --- End quote --- --- Quote --- Yes, but since you didn't tell us what you're going to use the scope for it's hard to say if that even matters. --- End quote --- I'm more concern about x axis. Sorry I don't know really, but it may be useful for any of my future application. --- Quote ---Also, R&S has the RTA4004 which is a 10bit scope and which is offered in a 1GHz version. Then there is Keysight (DSO-X4kA/6kA, Infiniium-S) and LeCroy (WaveSurfer 4000HD, HDO Series) which are the top two manufacturers when it comes to scopes. Leaving them out of consideration means you might be missing out on what at the end of the day may be better tools. --- End quote --- Thanks for pointing this. I will look for this two product also. |
| jjoonathan:
I have an RTO1024. It is very similar to the RTO2000 from a software and hardware perspective, just 10 years older. I'd expect my RTO1000 experence to translate well to what you can expect. I love my RTO1024. Especially the FFTs: Generally the build quality is high, the features work, and the software is both responsive and reliable. Windows behaves itself. The software is very tolerant even if Windows isn't exactly the way the RTO software expects: I am using my own Windows 7 install because the instrument came with XP, and I am also running dropbox to save/share screenshots with the push of a button, but it hasn't caused stuttering. The software triggers are great and consistently well-engineered. For example, if you are triggering with two levels, both are bound to the trigger knob and can be toggled with a press, both are labeled, both have visible hysteresis zones, the hysteresis zones are above/below/centered appropriately, etc. That level of craftsmanship is consistent across everything. "HD mode" is also well implemented. R&S's "16 bit" claim is marketing wank, but so is advertising a raw bit advantage when the ENOB advantage is considerably less, and it always is. If you absolutely need the highest resolution, R&S isn't it anymore, but HD mode will comfortably get you to ENOB of 10 bits, it works well with zooms/triggers/FFTs, and that's been good enough for my purposes. Back when I had an 8 bit Rigol, I used to regularly borrow my buddy's 12 bit Lecroy, but with the 8 bit R&S I haven't felt the need to. That's not a function of pride -- I just don't notice a qualitative difference once I've turned on HD mode and limited the bandwidth to a similar level. The touch screen on the RTO1000 (10 years old) is resistive, but even so it is very well implemented. For some of my coworkers, it was the first touch screen they ever had a positive experience with. I had an iPhone at that point, so I already knew what good touch screens were like, but they were new to oscilloscopes at that time. The RTO2000 is capacitive, so you have multi-finger gestures like pinch-to-zoom. If I knew where to buy a RTO2000 for $10k I would do it in an instant. Unfortunately they start at $18k over here. Maybe I need to haggle harder. Or maybe I need to visit India one of these days :) EDIT: Oh, and I'm a big fan of 500Ω low impedance probes, though I usually make my own and have not bought from R&S. The dirty secret of active probes is that at high frequencies, they have low impedance too. They have high impedance at DC, they are characterized at high frequency, and they sometimes have perks like tri-mode (Tri-mode probes are one area where Tektronix still has a genuine advantage), but you pay an awful lot for those advantages. At work, I am happy to spend someone else's money on active probes. At home, 500Ω probes are fine :) |
| Sighound36:
--- Quote from: udhay_cit on March 05, 2020, 02:15:55 pm ---Sighound36, I am also not sure about the "real 12 bit ADC", but from datasheet, EEVBLOG and signal path review I conclude that this is real hardware 12 bit ADC. We are buying some other equipment's from Tek & R&S, so they are offering a good price reduction. So I can't go back from this two brands. The sales and support also very good for this two brands in our location. Keysight is still having a problem of very low memory. R&S not familiar with oscilloscope for all but I really like the RTO-2000 spec, but the problem is I like the Tek also. Are you familiar with Tek 6 series. Are you facing any issue which you hate? --- End quote --- I understand your position regarding the manufacturers you have cited, however R&S have a factory bargain site and you may find a scope on there that may suit you better. The Tek 5 was very buggy, bad GUI why should you have to enter an app just to use the histogram? again having to swipe the channel into the bin on the far right hand channel, boot up time was a joke over 5 minutes and 30 seconds (linux version no windows). The cost of the apps was prohibitive, deal wise 30% is the norm on new scopes within these ranges, UK price is £17400 so £12200 +vat zero apps and basic probes. The 6 series was equally as average, except I managed to slow down the scope quite regularly and it crashed 8 times plus the coffee consumed while waiting for it to reboot |O £21800 basic 1 Ghz price £28,600 for 2.5ghz with the three basic apps and 3 respectable probes £46000+vat less 30% on the scope only With the R&S I just do not like the GUI at all, other will that is personal, but for me the 16Bit HD is still only 8 bits hardware the other 8 are software obtained. look at the noise figures for the RTE1000 as well . Those scopes start at £12,500 for the basic model here in the UK Other manufacturers will also entertain package deals you just have to ask. However the advice that has been given regarding actually picking one, have each of the units on long term loan to really see if it fits your requirements. Which one did we choose the Wavepro 254, second the Keysight MSO S 254 I would suggest checking out both of these brands as they really do deliver, the Tek was a big disappointment for us which was surprising as we were pretty much set on one! This makes for an interesting read. https://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/comparing-high-resolution-oscilloscope-design-approaches-wp.pdf Attached is an image of the Tek clearly showing 8 bits resolution while viewing a basic 176.4Khz square wave form. Not quite sure why a real 12 bit adc would down-sample to 8 bits? Also the noise floor at higher voltages wasn't that good (20 and 50mv) compared to the R&S imho |
| Wuerstchenhund:
--- Quote from: udhay_cit on March 05, 2020, 03:06:56 pm ---Sorry. Its my fault. I have to start with my specification. We are making transformer monitoring systems for substation and power generation systems where we have lot of EMI problems. This 1GHz scope we mainly looking for EMI troubleshooting. I know that DSO itself is not sufficient enough for EMI troubleshooting, but we need higher bandwidth scope for calibrate our EFT and surge generator --- End quote --- I see. A scope is really not the best tool for this, but the price difference between the Tek and the R&S alone would be enough to buy a entry-level spectrum analyzer (there are lots of cheap options in the up to 1.5GHz range, like the Rigol DSA, Siglent SSA, and even R&S has something in this class) which will perform a lot better than any scope for this task. But if that's not possible for some reason and you have to use FFT then even there the R&S RTO will be the better scope. --- Quote ---We yet to start the high speed microprocessor design in future. This scope may be helpful in future fro this. --- End quote --- Sure, but this would be another argument to be a bit more careful and not selecting a scope just based on brochures. --- Quote --- --- Quote ---Good if you like it. Our engineers didn't because it's not following common logic (i.e. disabling a channel by dragging it into the recycle bin). --- End quote --- You have a dedicated button also for doing the same, but I agree, that one is a useless feature --- End quote --- If this would have been the only problem then we wouldn't care, but the problem with the MSO5 and Tek scopes in particular is that they are based on a very slow architecture and generally perform poorly when doing demanding tasks. Then there are the software options, which not only are often priced just out of this world but also compare poorly to what the competition offer. --- Quote --- --- Quote ---Yeah, that's what you pay for the name. Tek believes the fact that they were the number one scope maker when analoog scopes were a thing some 30 years ago is still worth something when they have been making some of the worst digital scopes in history. And the MSO5 isn't a lot better, we one in for assessment a couple of times and still found embarrassing bugs that should not exist in a product at this price. There's a reason Tektronix has seen dwindling sales for about two decades while scopes sales mostly went to Keysight and LeCroy. --- End quote --- Oh no :-[. I don't know much about tektronix scopes. I'm using agilent 3000, 100MHz. Really they have lot of bugs & failures? Is it the reason lot of encore products are available in Tek website. --- End quote --- Well, all manufacturers offer refurbished equipment at reduced prices but Tektronix still seems to think they are in a position to charge more than competitors just because. We buy a lot of test equipment, but we haven't bought Tektronix for a very long time simply because the scopes are so bad. --- Quote --- --- Quote ---And in addition, R&S actually provides real support where Tek often stalls and is unwilling to fix (or even acknowledge) issues with its products. That's at least the case in Europe and the U.S. (who knows, maybe Tek India is different). --- End quote --- Really thank you for this valuable point. Before comparing the spec, we need consider this point. I say that they are giving really a good support before buying the instrument. I really don't know about after sales or service support. --- End quote --- Well I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. It often makes even many cheap Chinese brands look good. --- Quote --- --- Quote ---Yes, This is pretty much standard for most 1GHz scope. They all come with passive probes which are pretty poor for signals over say 300MHz in general anyways. --- End quote --- I really get stuck up. This is why I thinking of about Tek. --- End quote --- Tektronix does have some nice probes, but the good thing is that many other brands offer adapters to use them with non-Tektronix scopes. --- Quote --- --- Quote ---Also, R&S has the RTA4004 which is a 10bit scope and which is offered in a 1GHz version. Then there is Keysight (DSO-X4kA/6kA, Infiniium-S) and LeCroy (WaveSurfer 4000HD, HDO Series) which are the top two manufacturers when it comes to scopes. Leaving them out of consideration means you might be missing out on what at the end of the day may be better tools. --- End quote --- Thanks for pointing this. I will look for this two product also. --- End quote --- Also, look at refurbished/ex-demo scopes from both manufacturers (and R&S as well), as they can be notably cheaper than "new" scopes and often carry full factory warranty anyways. |
| jjoonathan:
Re: EMI debugging The RTO, even the RTO1000, even without the zone trigger option, has the ability to stop on a FFT spectrum mask violation and then look around with your gate to isolate the event in time and look for other traces (or even bus traffic) that caused it. That's killer. A scope will never have the spur-free range or calibrated level accuracy / input impedance match of a spectrum analyzer, but it can often be good enough (~.25dB level accuracy and 45dBc spec'd third harmonic distortion, usually ~60dBc at low frequency, POI is poor vs a RTSA but excellent vs a swept SA), and then it has a much greater real-time bandwidth and the ability to time-correlate. Fun side note: R&S supports using RTO and RTP oscilloscopes as digitizers for their ultra-high-end spectrum analyzers if the built in bandwidth isn't enough. Obviously it's a tradeoff -- the SA won't retain its SFDR and probably not noise floor in that configuration -- but even fancy-schmancy RF labs can find it in their hearts to put up with these tradeoffs. |
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