Author Topic: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th  (Read 221893 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline w2aew

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1780
  • Country: us
  • I usTa cuDnt speL enjinere, noW I aR wuN
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #425 on: June 06, 2017, 09:08:00 pm »
OT, but just a quick question for Brian and w2aew, is there a way to use Tek active probes on Keysight scopes?
I have an MSOX6004A, which is considerably faster in terms of UI responsiveness than our DPO5000 and DPO2000B series.
However, we have a bunch of $-4-digit Tek probes, mainly HV differential probes and current probes, with VPI interface.
Is there an adapter for these things? I mean, I can hook it up to a Tek scope and use it as a power supply, but I want a way to non-destructively tap to 50Ohm output to another scope.
Is it possible?

For the older TekProbe-II type probes (P62xx), there is a power supply (1103) that could be used for this purpose.  There isn't a standalone probe power supply for the VPI series of probes.  Some scopes offer a buffered copy of the analog signal on one of the channels, but the 2000 and 5000 series do not have this.
YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/w2aew
FAE for Tektronix
Technical Coordinator for the ARRL Northern NJ Section
 
The following users thanked this post: blueskull, Muxr

Offline w2aew

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1780
  • Country: us
  • I usTa cuDnt speL enjinere, noW I aR wuN
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #426 on: June 06, 2017, 09:18:21 pm »
For the older TekProbe-II type probes (P62xx), there is a power supply (1103) that could be used for this purpose.  There isn't a standalone probe power supply for the VPI series of probes.  Some scopes offer a buffered copy of the analog signal on one of the channels, but the 2000 and 5000 series do not have this.

Thanks. Is there a cheap (less than a few grands) scope that has such a buffered copy output?

To my knowledge, the only current VPI scope family that has this is the DPO7000 series, they don't meet your price criteria.
YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/w2aew
FAE for Tektronix
Technical Coordinator for the ARRL Northern NJ Section
 
The following users thanked this post: blueskull

Offline gslick

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 580
  • Country: us
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #427 on: June 06, 2017, 09:19:08 pm »
For the people thinking the $1800 price of the TLP058 8-channel Logic Probe is a bit crazy, have you looked at the price of the traditional logic analyzer probes such as the Tektronix P6810 and the Agilent / Keysight E5382A / E5382B? Maybe in that context and target market the price is somehow not so out of line. Maybe.
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37740
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #428 on: June 06, 2017, 09:24:30 pm »
I don't quite understand the obsession with 'new'. If a scope has nothing 'world's first', but is reasonably modern and made so that everything actually works as specified with minimal bugs or any nasty gotchas, I'd still consider it a good unit.
I think a lot of the discussion about 'new' features in this topic might be a response to the marketing material which sometimes felt like it was calling every feature of the scope a new innovation. Ok, an exaggeration probably and I'm not sure what the exact words used were but that was just the feel I personally got when reading it. A little more restrained expression might have had better results in this case.

That's the problem. The marketing was all about the big screen, the touch, and the gigantic number of channel.
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37740
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #429 on: June 06, 2017, 09:39:07 pm »
Anyways - a scope of this class is way beyond me and any hobbyist, yet I think its release along with the recent R & S release points to larger, higher def touch screens and higher bit ADCs are the future for scopes and eventually will likely trickle down into the modest spec, affordable for home use scopes.

I doubt it'll ever reach hobby level, but surely those new ASIC's must trickle down to some newer mid range scopes. Otherwise I suspect they might be struggling to make back their ROI.
 

Offline electrolust

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 562
  • Country: us
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #430 on: June 06, 2017, 09:51:04 pm »
If the trend is bigger screens and more channels, I don't see a better option.

A knob breakout port.  For folks that want individual knobs they can add a bar that attaches to the scope with all the knobs there.  A baseplate for the scope to sit on is a reasonable idea, except that the probe inputs just above make that unworkable.  But anyway a plugin box.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 26906
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #431 on: June 06, 2017, 10:03:54 pm »
If the trend is bigger screens and more channels, I don't see a better option.
A knob breakout port.  For folks that want individual knobs they can add a bar that attaches to the scope with all the knobs there.  A baseplate for the scope to sit on is a reasonable idea, except that the probe inputs just above make that unworkable.  But anyway a plugin box.
Trust me: a touchscreen is way better than knobs!
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Hydrawerk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2600
  • Country: 00
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #432 on: June 06, 2017, 11:14:41 pm »
A nice industrial scope... I wonder if they are going to reelase a successor to MSO2000.
Amazing machines. https://www.youtube.com/user/denha (It is not me...)
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37740
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #433 on: June 06, 2017, 11:47:12 pm »
Ok, let's take a look at this and see if it lives up to it's marketing hype.

Tek effectively promised this would be a "game changer", and more importantly they pretty much implied that it would be a game changer for the everyday engineer.
The big touch screen, the channels, and to a lesser extent (I don't know why they undersold this) the performance.

Now, it certainly smashes it out of the park on the performance level, no doubt about it, the new ASIC's are very impressive as is the performance to go along with it, no question. Hats off to Tek for more innovation and huge R&D commitment in this area.

The big touch screen and UI (without having used it), ok, it might be bigger and have more pixels than others, so ok, we'll give it that for sure, but I'm sure that R&S and Lecroy will have a lot to say about the UI. And did they say it's the first scope designed from the ground up for touch screen? That's demonstrable BS.
But sorry, Lecroy have an Ultra HD external monitor option at (3840 x 2160). So for internal screen it's a winner, but it's not the biggest UI, that award goes to Lecroy.

The channels. Unless you absolutely value a huge number of digital channels over everything else, then nope, sorry, it's not a game changer. The Lecroy HDO8000A has 8 analog channels (12 bit) and 16 digital channels. Tek MSO58 has only 6+16. The Lecroy beats it for channel count for most practical purposes.

Now, lets get down to crux of it and play real devil's advocate, because it's likely that very few people will, certainly not the Tek guys here plugging it, which they have every reason to do of course, it's an impressive scope and they should be rightly proud of it. But ultimately they don't have to pay for it.

So is it a "game changer" for the average engineer?
Nope, sorry Tek, you got pipped at the post by Lecroy. The HDO8000A was released 2 months ago (without all the fanfare). Tek have caught up for sure, but it's not a game changing leap. Maybe it is if you need more than 16 digital channels. But let's get real, that niche.
But granted, it's a game changer for Tek.
But of course it's bloody impressive, if you can afford it. But in many cases it may actually be a very poor choice.

Like it or not, price matters. Most engineers who have purchasing and and recommending power at companies do not have infinite budgets, price matters. Often they have an overall project or lab budget and they have to make real value choices.

And let's be honest up front, when you buy an expensive multi channel MSO, you want mixed signal and the channels you paid for. 16 digital channels is considered industry standard digital, let's run with that.

Let's look at the lowest cost option, the MSO54:
$16,200 for the lowest bandwidth 4 channel analog + 16 digital. That's pretty high already, almost putting it out of the reach of most average engineers. But let's say you are swayed by the performance etc.
When you use it as an MSO then your expensive MSO scope has turned into a mediocre (in terms of channels) 2+16 channel scope. That sucks. It sucks so bad that's it's likely a show-stopper for many.
If I'm buying a general purpose MSO scope for the lab, then I think the MSO54 practically isn't an option, and I suspect I won't be alone in that view.
I therefore consider the MSO54 a market failure for anyone but those with specific needs on a reasonable budget.

The MSO56 will give you the standard 4+16 channel, but geeze, it's $19,300 for the base 300MHz unit. Very pricey. But ok, if your budget extends to $20k then we are at least playing ball now, you have my consideration. This 6 channel option could be a good seller for them.

For general use, the MSO58 you would  buy because you want are want a big number of channels. Ok, price usually isn't a huge consideration at this price point, but is it the only choice out there?, is it a "game changer"?
Nope, the Lecroy HDO8000A has the full 8 analog channels (12 bit) and the 16 digital channels. Two more valuable analog channels than the Tek. Plus it has external trigger.
The Lecroy external screen option at Ultra HD (3840 x 2160) beats the pants off the Tek MSO58 for viewing all that data, no contest if big screen analysis is your thing.

So let's compare:
- The HDO8000A is $25,800 (+ digital probes I think, don't have pricing). The Tek MSO58 is $21,200 + probes. So yes, base model is more affordable, but again, you sacrifice analog channels for digital.
- (Without having used either) The Lecroy Ultra HD external screen support beats the Tek hands down, could be a deal maker there.

And I'm sure we can fuss over fine performance details until the cows come home here, but banner specs:
- The Lecroy has 8+16+1 external trigger, the Tek only has 6+16. But tek wins if you need >16CH digital.
- Both have 12 bit ADC
- The Lecroy has up to 250M sample memory/channel, beating the Tek's 125M.
- The Lecroy has 10GS/s (on all channels too) beating Tek's 6.25GS/s on all channels.
- The Tek can go to 2GHz (with different hardware front end), winner there if you need to bandwidth.
- Lecroy digital sample rate is lower at only 1.25GS/s compared to 6.25GS/s on Tek. But probably no major practical difference for everyday use?
- Lecroy matches Tek with 125M digital sample memory option.
- I'm led to believe the Tek has more flexible digital input voltage range? +/-30V (<200MHz) compared to Lecroy's +/-20V (full bandwidth?). Needs more investigation.


So sorry Tek, it's an awesome scope, but it's not a "game changer", you got beaten by several months by Lecroy.
And yes, I know your response will be to nit-pick every technical performance detail, and go for it. But the fact is you got beat to market with an 8 channel big touch screen GUI scope, and you have serious competition which in quite a few areas outperforms your new 5 series, some of which you touted as your big game changing features.
But no one is talking about the Lecroy HDO8000A, why?, because Tek's marketing is infinitely better, and it's Tek.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 12:10:14 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16615
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #434 on: June 06, 2017, 11:49:00 pm »
Though, it is the largest screen on the market at 15.6 inches and the highest resolution screen at 1920x1080.

It only took 30 years for DSOs with LCDs to catch up to and exceed the resolution of the earliest DSOs with vector CRTs. ;)

Update: Woohoo!  Tektronix listened to me!  It has a separate physical button to change the trigger slope!
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 12:37:35 am by David Hess »
 

Offline technogeeky

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 555
  • Country: us
  • Older New "New Player" Player Playa'
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #435 on: June 07, 2017, 12:10:29 am »
...

I'm still confused (this might have been discussed).

It seems like this oscilloscope has independent sample rates per channel (good, though maybe normal for scopes this high end). But it's first touted as a 12-bit oscilloscope, but it's only 12-bit when you go down to 3.125 GS/s. Is this normal? The LeCroy HDO8000A seems to imply it's 12-bit at 10GS/s.

This would tend to make your argument even stronger. For a 2 GHz signal, you aren't even sampling at the 2x Nyquist rate which is usually customary. And forget sampling at the preferred 10x rate.
 

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16615
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #436 on: June 07, 2017, 12:23:18 am »
Its also the first scope to have 500uV/div (5mV Full scale) as a standard gain setting. Only other scope that i'm aware on the market is the RTO, but you have to purchase their HD option.

AFAIK 500uV/div is standard on some other scopes as well. With so many different oscilloscopes out there it is very hard to come up with something which is truly new. Sure the combination in one device may be new but a lot of things have already been done. Anyway, I guess this oscilloscope will be beyond my budget for at least a decade.

I would be more interested in knowing under what conditions 500uV/div is achieved.  The specifications are missing some odd things like noise specifications at 500uV/div and the noise specifications are only given for high resolution mode which is 1.25GS/s and slower.  I am inclined to believe that 500uV/div is not a native sensitivity and just represents 1mV/div digitally multiplied by 2.

It also is not clear if the noise specifications are for RMS or peak-to-peak.  It looks like they are for the former which would make them consistent with reality but not outstanding.

It seems like this oscilloscope has independent sample rates per channel (good, though maybe normal for scopes this high end). But it's first touted as a 12-bit oscilloscope, but it's only 12-bit when you go down to 3.125 GS/s. Is this normal? The LeCroy HDO8000A seems to imply it's 12-bit at 10GS/s.

You do not gain 4 bits when decimating by 2 and the specified effective number of bits is between 7 and 9 depending on the conditions so I assume it is a 12 bit ADC that has a double speed 8 bit mode.  The specifications say that a FIR filter is used at 1.25 GS/s and below to deliver more than 12 bits of resolution.

Quote
This would tend to make your argument even stronger. For a 2 GHz signal, you aren't even sampling at the 2x Nyquist rate which is usually customary. And forget sampling at the preferred 10x rate.

The specifications include "12.5 GS/s to 500 GS/s (interpolated)" so I assume some DSP magic is being used rather than equivalent time sampling over multiple acquisitions.
 

Offline snoopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 767
  • Country: au
    • Analog Precision
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #437 on: June 07, 2017, 12:34:51 am »
I like the 12-bit ADC, the 1080p large screen and the 500uV vertical. Not enough to justify the ridiculous pricing though.

I like the new scope, you've got to give Tek props for continuing to bring out new designs on what would have been a massive design effort on this one.
Although to be honest I don't see anything really new here.
It's not the first big touch screen scope.
It's not the first 8 channel scope.


Glad you like the new scope Dave, I think whats been discussed here in the forum is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of features and capabilities.

We never claimed it was the first big touch screen scope. Though, it is the largest screen on the market at 15.6 inches and the highest resolution screen at 1920x1080.
We never claimed it was the first 8 channel scope on the market. But it is the first 4, 6, 8 combination scope on the market, and it is the only 6 channel model.
Its also the first scope that has the flexibility of the FlexChannel input (each input is 1 analog or 8 digital channels)
Its also the first scope at 2GHz and 8 channels
Its also the first scope to have up to 64 digital channels
Its also the first scope to have an embedded OS (std) or optional SSD that brings Windows 10
Its also the first scope to have 500uV/div (5mV Full scale) as a standard gain setting. Only other scope that i'm aware on the market is the RTO, but you have to purchase their HD option.
Its also is fastest scope on the market with vertical resolution higher than an 8-bit ADC. (other 10-bit or 12-bit scopes don't specify capture rate)
It has the highest standard memory at 62.5 Mpts Record length in its class
It has one of the best service plan options, with the Tektronix Total Protection Plan
It comes standard with up to 8 passive probes, where the HDO8000A comes with 4.
It has the highest standard sample rate for digital probes, highest bandwidth and lowest capacitance
It has the best passive probes on the market, at up to 1GHz, 3.9pF, and no need for that silly compensation adjustment tool. Its all automatically done, and compensation values are stored in a per channel basis. No need to ever compensate that probe on that channel again.
Only scope over 4 channels with a DVM, AFG, and frequency counter.

These are just the tip of the iceberg Dave. The details behind all of them are impressive and many are market leading.  Glad you can admire a great design when you see one  :-+

Also 6.25 Gs/s sampling on each channel independent of the other channels  :box:
 

Offline snoopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 767
  • Country: au
    • Analog Precision
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #438 on: June 07, 2017, 12:38:15 am »
Anyways - a scope of this class is way beyond me and any hobbyist, yet I think its release along with the recent R & S release points to larger, higher def touch screens and higher bit ADCs are the future for scopes and eventually will likely trickle down into the modest spec, affordable for home use scopes.

I doubt it'll ever reach hobby level, but surely those new ASIC's must trickle down to some newer mid range scopes. Otherwise I suspect they might be struggling to make back their ROI.

It's like Tesla. They built the best electric car they could to show the public what they could do with the technology and now they are slowly making cheaper models. I'm sure Tek has this in mind ;)
 

Offline snoopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 767
  • Country: au
    • Analog Precision
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #439 on: June 07, 2017, 12:43:27 am »
The channels. Unless you absolutely value a huge number of digital channels over everything else, then nope, sorry, it's not a game changer. The Lecroy HDO8000A has 8 analog channels (12 bit) and 16 digital channels. Tek MSO58 has only 6+16. The Lecroy beats it for channel count for most practical purposes.


So what happens if you need 24 digital channels or 32 ? (Murphies law) You can get this on the Tek without having to buy anymore test equipment ;)
 

Offline TK

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1722
  • Country: us
  • I am a Systems Analyst who plays with Electronics
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #440 on: June 07, 2017, 12:58:33 am »
The channels. Unless you absolutely value a huge number of digital channels over everything else, then nope, sorry, it's not a game changer. The Lecroy HDO8000A has 8 analog channels (12 bit) and 16 digital channels. Tek MSO58 has only 6+16. The Lecroy beats it for channel count for most practical purposes.


So what happens if you need 24 digital channels or 32 ? (Murphies law) You can get this on the Tek without having to buy anymore test equipment ;)
Not without paying another $7,200
 

Offline snoopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 767
  • Country: au
    • Analog Precision
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #441 on: June 07, 2017, 01:06:37 am »
So let's compare:
- The HDO8000A is $25,800 (+ digital probes I think, don't have pricing). The Tek MSO58 is $21,200 + probes. So yes, base model is more affordable, but again, you sacrifice analog channels for digital.
- (Without having used either) The Lecroy Ultra HD external screen support beats the Tek hands down, could be a deal maker there.

And I'm sure we can fuss over fine performance details until the cows come home here, but banner specs:
- The Lecroy has 8+16+1 external trigger, the Tek only has 6+16. But tek wins if you need >16CH digital.
- Both have 12 bit ADC
- The Lecroy has up to 250M sample memory/channel, beating the Tek's 125M.
- The Lecroy has 10GS/s (on all channels too) beating Tek's 6.25GS/s on all channels.
- The Tek can go to 2GHz (with different hardware front end), winner there if you need to bandwidth.
- Lecroy digital sample rate is lower at only 1.25GS/s compared to 6.25GS/s on Tek. But probably no major practical difference for everyday use?
- Lecroy matches Tek with 125M digital sample memory option.
- I'm led to believe the Tek has more flexible digital input voltage range? +/-30V (<200MHz) compared to Lecroy's +/-20V (full bandwidth?). Needs more investigation.


The Lecroy appears to be 10 Gs/s with only one channel switched on and possibly some DSP cheating algorithm !! So the more channels you need the lower the sampling rate  :--

Also it has a much smaller screen than the Tek :--

And 6.25 Gs/s vs 1.25 Gs/s on all channels is a big deal if you need raw scope performance which is what you would want for the price !! Sorry for the price I would be steering the purchasing department towards the Tek on that count alone ;)
 

Offline w2aew

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1780
  • Country: us
  • I usTa cuDnt speL enjinere, noW I aR wuN
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #442 on: June 07, 2017, 01:12:38 am »

I'm still confused (this might have been discussed).

It seems like this oscilloscope has independent sample rates per channel (good, though maybe normal for scopes this high end). But it's first touted as a 12-bit oscilloscope, but it's only 12-bit when you go down to 3.125 GS/s. Is this normal? The LeCroy HDO8000A seems to imply it's 12-bit at 10GS/s.

This would tend to make your argument even stronger. For a 2 GHz signal, you aren't even sampling at the 2x Nyquist rate which is usually customary. And forget sampling at the preferred 10x rate.

The sample rate on the 5 Series is common to all channels - analog and digital, regardless of how many are active. You get 8 bits at 6.25GS/s for 2GHz BW (50ohm).  When dialed down to 3.125GS/s, you get 12 bits 1GHz BW (50ohm).

The LeCroy HD8000A implies that it is 10GS/s, but you have to read the datasheet carefully.  10GS/s refers to their "enhanced sample rate", which is a 4x sin(x)/x interpolation.  The actual ADC sample rate is 2.5GS/s at 12bits, which explains the 1GHz BW limit.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 01:15:31 am by w2aew »
YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/w2aew
FAE for Tektronix
Technical Coordinator for the ARRL Northern NJ Section
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w, technogeeky, BrianH_Tektronix

Offline snoopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 767
  • Country: au
    • Analog Precision
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #443 on: June 07, 2017, 01:14:09 am »
The channels. Unless you absolutely value a huge number of digital channels over everything else, then nope, sorry, it's not a game changer. The Lecroy HDO8000A has 8 analog channels (12 bit) and 16 digital channels. Tek MSO58 has only 6+16. The Lecroy beats it for channel count for most practical purposes.


So what happens if you need 24 digital channels or 32 ? (Murphies law) You can get this on the Tek without having to buy anymore test equipment ;)
Not without paying another $7,200

I bet you that price is negotiable if you order it all at once but it's obviously not aimed at the hobbyist on eevblog ;)
 

Offline technogeeky

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 555
  • Country: us
  • Older New "New Player" Player Playa'
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #444 on: June 07, 2017, 01:50:12 am »

I'm still confused (this might have been discussed).

It seems like this oscilloscope has independent sample rates per channel (good, though maybe normal for scopes this high end). But it's first touted as a 12-bit oscilloscope, but it's only 12-bit when you go down to 3.125 GS/s. Is this normal? The LeCroy HDO8000A seems to imply it's 12-bit at 10GS/s.

This would tend to make your argument even stronger. For a 2 GHz signal, you aren't even sampling at the 2x Nyquist rate which is usually customary. And forget sampling at the preferred 10x rate.

The sample rate on the 5 Series is common to all channels - analog and digital, regardless of how many are active. You get 8 bits at 6.25GS/s for 2GHz BW (50ohm).  When dialed down to 3.125GS/s, you get 12 bits 1GHz BW (50ohm).

The LeCroy HD8000A implies that it is 10GS/s, but you have to read the datasheet carefully.  10GS/s refers to their "enhanced sample rate", which is a 4x sin(x)/x interpolation.  The actual ADC sample rate is 2.5GS/s at 12bits, which explains the 1GHz BW limit.

Jeez, you do have to read the datasheet carefully! I tried looking in several places, looked at ENOB and other sample rate lists. Ultimately it looks like this is the line which corroborates your correction:


Sample Rate (Single-shot)           2.5 GS/s on all 8 input channels

So from a 1GHz point of view, your this Tek scope goes up a bit in sampling rate (from 2.5Gs/s which is Nyquist sufficient; to 3.125Gs/s which is Nyquist... slightly more sufficient) -- both at 12 bits. But your MSO58 screamin' machine let's you trade down to 8-bits to get another GHz of bandwidth.



 
The following users thanked this post: BrianH_Tektronix

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37740
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #445 on: June 07, 2017, 02:27:01 am »
So let's compare:
- The HDO8000A is $25,800 (+ digital probes I think, don't have pricing). The Tek MSO58 is $21,200 + probes. So yes, base model is more affordable, but again, you sacrifice analog channels for digital.
- (Without having used either) The Lecroy Ultra HD external screen support beats the Tek hands down, could be a deal maker there.

And I'm sure we can fuss over fine performance details until the cows come home here, but banner specs:
- The Lecroy has 8+16+1 external trigger, the Tek only has 6+16. But tek wins if you need >16CH digital.
- Both have 12 bit ADC
- The Lecroy has up to 250M sample memory/channel, beating the Tek's 125M.
- The Lecroy has 10GS/s (on all channels too) beating Tek's 6.25GS/s on all channels.
- The Tek can go to 2GHz (with different hardware front end), winner there if you need to bandwidth.
- Lecroy digital sample rate is lower at only 1.25GS/s compared to 6.25GS/s on Tek. But probably no major practical difference for everyday use?
- Lecroy matches Tek with 125M digital sample memory option.
- I'm led to believe the Tek has more flexible digital input voltage range? +/-30V (<200MHz) compared to Lecroy's +/-20V (full bandwidth?). Needs more investigation.


The Lecroy appears to be 10 Gs/s with only one channel switched on and possibly some DSP cheating algorithm !! So the more channels you need the lower the sampling rate  :--

They claim all channels, but yes, it involves some cheating. It's actually 2.5GS/s for each channel, which is plenty for the 300MHz and 500MHz models.
So a general use scope, the Lecroy offers more channels and bigger external UI, you know, the stuff that matters, and the stuff that Tek were crowing about as supposedly "game changing".

Quote
Also it has a much smaller screen than the Tek :--

It has support for a much bigger external screen. If you are analysing data then this matters, a lot.
Tek claim to have the biggest UI, they don't.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 02:30:25 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37740
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #446 on: June 07, 2017, 02:33:17 am »
The channels. Unless you absolutely value a huge number of digital channels over everything else, then nope, sorry, it's not a game changer. The Lecroy HDO8000A has 8 analog channels (12 bit) and 16 digital channels. Tek MSO58 has only 6+16. The Lecroy beats it for channel count for most practical purposes.
So what happens if you need 24 digital channels or 32 ? (Murphies law) You can get this on the Tek without having to buy anymore test equipment ;)

What part of "for most practical purposes" didn't you understand?
16 digital channels is plenty for most practical uses, which is why scopes don't offer any more.
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 37740
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #447 on: June 07, 2017, 02:41:10 am »
The sample rate on the 5 Series is common to all channels - analog and digital, regardless of how many are active. You get 8 bits at 6.25GS/s for 2GHz BW (50ohm).  When dialed down to 3.125GS/s, you get 12 bits 1GHz BW (50ohm).

The LeCroy HD8000A implies that it is 10GS/s, but you have to read the datasheet carefully.  10GS/s refers to their "enhanced sample rate", which is a 4x sin(x)/x interpolation.  The actual ADC sample rate is 2.5GS/s at 12bits, which explains the 1GHz BW limit.

Ok, let's forget the 2GHz version because there is no apples-apples there.

So the Tek has 3.25GS/s for 12 bit for all channels, and if you include 16 MSO then it's a 6+16+0 scope.
The Lecroy is 2.5GS/s for 12 bit for all channels, but you get 8+16+1 channels, and a bigger optional GUI interface.
3.25GS vs 2.5GS isn't much, especially when you are talking about general use passive probing on the (probably more popular) 300MHz and 500MHz models.
Can you see my point here?

The Tek is nowhere near it's claimed "game changing" when you view it's competition, except under specific performances circumstances.
The Lecroy is very serious competition, and in many cases (including general use) will be better than the Tek.

Don't get me wrong, I think the new Tek is brilliant, but I'm playing practical devil's advocate.
Arguing over which is better is moot, but I seem to be the only one here pointing out that there is serious competition, and shock horror, the Tek might have been a tad over-marketed.
But I think I'm done on this, I've pointed it out.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 02:47:07 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline HackedFridgeMagnet

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2028
  • Country: au
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #448 on: June 07, 2017, 02:44:39 am »
Can't see the point of 64 channels, is it for a 64 bit bus?
If you were working on a 64 bit bus wouldn't you want say 66-68 channels to actually measure something apart from the address?

 

Offline snoopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 767
  • Country: au
    • Analog Precision
Re: New 2GHz touchscreen scope from Tek, June 6th
« Reply #449 on: June 07, 2017, 03:09:41 am »
So let's compare:
- The HDO8000A is $25,800 (+ digital probes I think, don't have pricing). The Tek MSO58 is $21,200 + probes. So yes, base model is more affordable, but again, you sacrifice analog channels for digital.
- (Without having used either) The Lecroy Ultra HD external screen support beats the Tek hands down, could be a deal maker there.

And I'm sure we can fuss over fine performance details until the cows come home here, but banner specs:
- The Lecroy has 8+16+1 external trigger, the Tek only has 6+16. But tek wins if you need >16CH digital.
- Both have 12 bit ADC
- The Lecroy has up to 250M sample memory/channel, beating the Tek's 125M.
- The Lecroy has 10GS/s (on all channels too) beating Tek's 6.25GS/s on all channels.
- The Tek can go to 2GHz (with different hardware front end), winner there if you need to bandwidth.
- Lecroy digital sample rate is lower at only 1.25GS/s compared to 6.25GS/s on Tek. But probably no major practical difference for everyday use?
- Lecroy matches Tek with 125M digital sample memory option.
- I'm led to believe the Tek has more flexible digital input voltage range? +/-30V (<200MHz) compared to Lecroy's +/-20V (full bandwidth?). Needs more investigation.


The Lecroy appears to be 10 Gs/s with only one channel switched on and possibly some DSP cheating algorithm !! So the more channels you need the lower the sampling rate  :--

They claim all channels, but yes, it involves some cheating. It's actually 2.5GS/s for each channel, which is plenty for the 300MHz and 500MHz models.
So a general use scope, the Lecroy offers more channels and bigger external UI, you know, the stuff that matters, and the stuff that Tek were crowing about as supposedly "game changing".

Quote
Also it has a much smaller screen than the Tek :--

It has support for a much bigger external screen. If you are analysing data then this matters, a lot.
Tek claim to have the biggest UI, they don't.

I must have missed something. Can you not hookup a bigger screen and possible get higher resolution or is HD 1920x1080 the limit ?

cheers
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf