Author Topic: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?  (Read 106859 times)

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Offline CustomEngineerer

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #475 on: January 17, 2018, 05:34:00 am »
Just a little more info on AC+DC measurement from Greenlee DM-860A (which is a rebadged Brymen BM869S) user manual.

AC + DC True RMS
AC + DC true RMS calculates both of the AC and DC components given by the expression



when making measurements and responds accurately to the total effective RMS value regardless of the waveform. Distorted waveforms with the presence of DC components and harmonics may cause:
• Transformers, generators, and motors to overheat
• Circuit breakers to trip prematurely
• Fuses to blow
• Neutrals to overheat due to the triplen harmonics present on the neutral • Bus bars and electrical panels to vibrate
 
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Offline Scottjd

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #476 on: January 17, 2018, 04:15:33 pm »
• Circuit breakers to trip prematurely
• Bus bars and electrical panels to vibrate

Circuit breakers to trip prematurely
I had an older GFIC that started tripping after converting all the lights the house to CFL bulbs (before LEDs were affordable) and it would have been good to own the Fluke 289 that I have now to have seen this AC and DC measurements separately. As far I could tell before I got serious I tot he hobby, it had something to do with the harmonics of the CFL bulbs I installed causing the old GFIC breaker to trip. I just replaced the GFIC with a new one and all was ok again. Probably cheap CFL bulbs at the time, power factor was probably horrible, and old overly sensitive GFIC combination.

Bus bars and electrical panels to vibrate
Never seen this, some would think this is haunted stuff going on. :scared:

So the 121GW doesn’t have the ability to display these voltages separately despite the dual channels and dual display?
Still waiting on some sort of shipping notification or update on the US shipped meters, mine is still MIA.
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #477 on: January 17, 2018, 05:31:35 pm »
Just a little more info on AC+DC measurement from Greenlee DM-860A (which is a rebadged Brymen BM869S) user manual.

AC + DC True RMS
AC + DC true RMS calculates both of the AC and DC components given by the expression
(...)
You could have used Mathjax... :)

\( \sqrt{ V_{ACrms}^2 + V_{DC}^2} \)

Code: [Select]
\( \sqrt{ V_{ACrms}^2 + V_{DC}^2} \)
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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Offline 3db

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #478 on: January 18, 2018, 12:34:40 pm »

Would a 7 sec autorange meet anyone's minimum standards ?

And does REPEATING the same point 8-10 times on different threads with ZERO hands on use make you useful in the discussion or just LOUD?


Not his fault we have multiple threads talking about the same thing, and his comment is SPOT on, don't need to own one to make that observation.


But to keep harping on that same point?? It seems more about trying to whip up some sort of online frenzy about a point that will take a little time to fix in firmware, bleating incessantly about it won't make it magically fixed or even happen sooner.

In my opinion Mike just asked a valid question.
It seems to me that YOU are the one that's bleating.

3db
 
 

Online beanflying

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #479 on: January 18, 2018, 09:14:58 pm »

In my opinion Mike just asked a valid question.
It seems to me that YOU are the one that's bleating.

3db
 

Mike and others with NO first hand use have prattled on and attacked the product and Dave's thoughts and actions and repeated those sentiments and statements in multiple posts.  Some of these comments made seem to be more about whipping up a storm than looking for a solution.

While certainly not perfect Dave deserves the decency of some time with his family for a start then some time to go back to the manufacturer to sort out some of the issues then let us know what they have found and a path forward to improve the meter.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 09:17:28 pm by beanflying »
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Offline BU508A

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #480 on: January 18, 2018, 10:40:07 pm »
Guys, please, have a little patience. I'm convinced, Dave will get it sorted out and in the end, everything will be fine.
And if not everything is fine, then it is not the end.  :)
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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #481 on: January 18, 2018, 10:40:41 pm »
This fanboy outrage against any perceived slight from other forum members is bullshit!  Grow the F**k up!
 
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Offline brainwash

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #482 on: January 18, 2018, 11:39:06 pm »
Mike and others with NO first hand use have prattled on and attacked the product and Dave's thoughts and actions and repeated those sentiments and statements in multiple posts.  Some of these comments made seem to be more about whipping up a storm than looking for a solution.

While certainly not perfect Dave deserves the decency of some time with his family for a start then some time to go back to the manufacturer to sort out some of the issues then let us know what they have found and a path forward to improve the meter.

Sorry to intervene, but you are either unique among people or just biased in this case. People are not thinking of the Amazon delivery men/women's families when Christmas approaches nor will they investigate why it takes time for a reseller to solve their issues - thinking they must be on vacation. Maybe not the case here, but not sure where the line is drawn between customers and enthusiasts.

I felt bad about dragging the hotel manager out from a family outing on the 24th of December - but not my fault if there is only one hotel manager who also managed to lock me out of my room. Again, not the case here, but I think there should be a distinction between expectations and sentiments.

While I'm sure it will be [somehow] settled, it seems like a s*storm from both sides, without even a single quote from Dave. Not sure where all this rage is coming from or going to...
I guess polarized opinions means a successful product or campaign, regardless of the results.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #483 on: January 19, 2018, 12:16:02 am »
Mike and others with NO first hand use have prattled on and attacked the product and Dave's thoughts and actions and repeated those sentiments and statements in multiple posts.  Some of these comments made seem to be more about whipping up a storm than looking for a solution.

While certainly not perfect Dave deserves the decency of some time with his family for a start then some time to go back to the manufacturer to sort out some of the issues then let us know what they have found and a path forward to improve the meter.

Sorry to intervene, but you are either unique among people or just biased in this case. People are not thinking of the Amazon delivery men/women's families when Christmas approaches nor will they investigate why it takes time for a reseller to solve their issues - thinking they must be on vacation. Maybe not the case here, but not sure where the line is drawn between customers and enthusiasts.

I felt bad about dragging the hotel manager out from a family outing on the 24th of December - but not my fault if there is only one hotel manager who also managed to lock me out of my room. Again, not the case here, but I think there should be a distinction between expectations and sentiments.

While I'm sure it will be [somehow] settled, it seems like a s*storm from both sides, without even a single quote from Dave. Not sure where all this rage is coming from or going to...
I guess polarized opinions
means a successful product or campaign, regardless of the results.
As I mentioned in another thread, this is most probably coming from the unrealistic and unfulfilled expectation (=frustration) of a "close to perfection" product that had an unparalleled transparent development process. It is a new product and issues like these are bound to happen.

Another factor that contributes to this reaction is the vocal and vitriolic response that Dave would have displayed if the product was from a third party. The 121GW has become the target of the reviewers and customers, and I guess it becomes a fair game to criticize it in the same tone.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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Offline Iagash

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #484 on: January 19, 2018, 12:56:07 am »
As I mentioned in another thread, this is most probably coming from the unrealistic and unfulfilled expectation (=frustration) of a "close to perfection" product that had an unparalleled transparent development process. It is a new product and issues like these are bound to happen.

Yes of course. But I saw enough of Daves reviews to be able to imagine what he would have said about the meter.

What I am wondering about, is that the felt majority of posts is about the ohm autoranging speed and other cosmetic deficiencies. Wtf? This is the smallest of the problems the meter has and I don't get why everybody seems so excited about this problem.

I'm more concerned with the real problems of the firmware, like sending broken records via bluetooth, missing to write loglines onto the sd-card, file corruption on the sd-card, sending plain wrong data via bluetooth and using a braindead protocol to send data via bluetooth. One part of the data is decimal coded hex digits, the other part is hex coded hex digits and half of the records are garbled, wasting probably two thirds of the small available bandwidth of bluetooth LE. Wtf?

If you find issues like that, you start wondering, what else the firmware the guys will probably have messed up.

I'm not concerned that not everything on the first batch works as expected. I'm more concerned that someone writes the firmware for the meter who makes design errors like this. Writing data to an file system and transmitting data via a serial port to a bt-dongle is no rocket science. The bluetooth transmission is CRC protected so the meter clearly writes wrong data to the module. I'm too lazy to to solder a logic analyzer to the module connection to verify this. This is Dave's or whoever's homework.

What am I to expect from someone with this track record in the future?

Dave said: "It's ready when it's ready."

I guess he didn't look to closely. He knew about the wrong data via bluetooth. The app tries to filter it out, but fails in quite some cases.
 
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #485 on: January 19, 2018, 01:15:55 am »
If you find issues like that, you start wondering, what else the firmware the guys will probably have messed up.
Exactly.

Unfortunately this is probably something Dave has had little control over, and is likely at least pissed off about it as anyone else, but for commercial reasons can't voice it as he would have done if reviewing someone else's product.
UEI have spent a lot on development and are relying on Dave to get enough sales to recoup their investment.
The number and nature of the issues reported so far do suggest something more fundamental than a few minor bugs, like generally poor design & structure, as we've seen in countless Chinese products.
Maybe another reason the manufacturer doesn't want to open source it.
One downside of easily updateable firmware is that it can lead to a "we can fix it later" attitude.
As long as there aren't any underlying hardware issues, hopefully things will get fixed in due course.   
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Offline Kean

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #486 on: January 19, 2018, 01:19:20 am »
Mike and others with NO first hand use have prattled on and attacked the product and Dave's thoughts and actions and repeated those sentiments and statements in multiple posts.  Some of these comments made seem to be more about whipping up a storm than looking for a solution.

While certainly not perfect Dave deserves the decency of some time with his family for a start then some time to go back to the manufacturer to sort out some of the issues then let us know what they have found and a path forward to improve the meter.

Sorry to intervene, but you are either unique among people or just biased in this case. People are not thinking of the Amazon delivery men/women's families when Christmas approaches nor will they investigate why it takes time for a reseller to solve their issues - thinking they must be on vacation. Maybe not the case here, but not sure where the line is drawn between customers and enthusiasts.

I felt bad about dragging the hotel manager out from a family outing on the 24th of December - but not my fault if there is only one hotel manager who also managed to lock me out of my room. Again, not the case here, but I think there should be a distinction between expectations and sentiments.

While I'm sure it will be [somehow] settled, it seems like a s*storm from both sides, without even a single quote from Dave. Not sure where all this rage is coming from or going to...
I guess polarized opinions means a successful product or campaign, regardless of the results.

You need to remember this is a Kickstarter.  It is very different to buying a finished product from Amazon, or paying a hotel for accommodation.
 

Offline SkyMaster

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #487 on: January 19, 2018, 01:32:18 am »
You need to remember this is a Kickstarter.  It is very different to buying a finished product from Amazon, or paying a hotel for accommodation.

You are right Kean. On Kickstarter you are a "backer", and not a customer. And you are taking a risk when you are backing a project.

I backed the EEVblog 121GW Multimeter.

 :)
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #488 on: January 19, 2018, 01:33:05 am »
You need to remember this is a Kickstarter.  It is very different to buying a finished product from Amazon, or paying a hotel for accommodation.
It's not reasonable to compare with typical Kickstarters - it's a product designed and manufactured by an experienced test equipment company, with significant input from someone with considerable expertise in the field. The KS wasn't started until it was pretty much ready to go.
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #489 on: January 19, 2018, 01:44:42 am »
As I mentioned in another thread, this is most probably coming from the unrealistic and unfulfilled expectation (=frustration) of a "close to perfection" product that had an unparalleled transparent development process. It is a new product and issues like these are bound to happen.

Yes of course. But I saw enough of Daves reviews to be able to imagine what he would have said about the meter.

What I am wondering about, is that the felt majority of posts is about the ohm autoranging speed and other cosmetic deficiencies. Wtf? This is the smallest of the problems the meter has and I don't get why everybody seems so excited about this problem.
Only a fraction of people will use datalogging, while continuity is the third pillar of a DMM. That alone will draw criticism in much larger numbers, and the feedback here reflects that.

I completely agree with yours and Mike's statements regarding the firmware, but this is nothing new of products made in China. IMO, if UEI is responsive to correct the BT and datalog bugs, to enhance the autorange performance and to rethink the beeper behaviour, this will be a much welcome recovery that will certainly differentiate them from other competitors at the same league. This does not require open source firmware, which is something that will never materialize as per Dave's words.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline Iagash

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #490 on: January 19, 2018, 02:04:06 am »
As long as there aren't any underlying hardware issues, hopefully things will get fixed in due course.

Yeah, but we'll probably never find out, because the people with large amounts of test equipment just make videos about autoranging speed.

I can't test this, I only have an Fluke 73III (probably one of the worst they ever made, someone gave it to me, but there is a laser trimmed resistor in there), an UNI-T 71D and a Tektronix 7834 scope.
 

Offline Kean

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #491 on: January 19, 2018, 02:17:19 am »
You need to remember this is a Kickstarter.  It is very different to buying a finished product from Amazon, or paying a hotel for accommodation.
It's not reasonable to compare with typical Kickstarters - it's a product designed and manufactured by an experienced test equipment company, with significant input from someone with considerable expertise in the field. The KS wasn't started until it was pretty much ready to go.

Agreed, this is definitely not a "typical" Kickstarter project.  But that doesn't take away from the fact that it is still a Kickstarter project, and a brand new product.
It is easy to sit back and say that the slow auto ranging should have been an obvious issue, but any one managing a business knows that things slip through the cracks.
It isn't that surprising to find a few issues, and I'm sure Dave already has UEI looking into the reports.  Better for them to now analyse these carefully than to rush out a fix.
 

Offline 1anX

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #492 on: January 19, 2018, 04:43:57 am »
I see a number of posts saying that the UEi 121GW meter is made in China.
I'm pretty sure its manufactured and assembled in South Korea. Can anyone confirm this?
 

Offline IanB

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #493 on: January 19, 2018, 04:46:34 am »
I'm pretty sure its manufactured and assembled in South Korea. Can anyone confirm this?

Yes, it is.
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 
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Offline markb82

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #494 on: January 19, 2018, 07:54:31 am »
Loosy goosy range switch:

https://youtu.be/7E2Pjcogrho?t=5m28s

And that was April 2017, kinda disappointing it didn't 'get worked on'.  :-\



« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 08:03:44 am by markb82 »
 

Offline 1anX

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #495 on: January 19, 2018, 08:46:31 am »
Loosy goosy range switch:

https://youtu.be/7E2Pjcogrho?t=5m28s

And that was April 2017, kinda disappointing it didn't 'get worked on'.  :-\

Video of the same problem causing intermittent contact is posted on the "Issues" thread. Maybe something as simple as a wave washer under the circlip would provide a fix?

http://www.globalspec.com/learnmore/mechanical_components/springs/wave_washers
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #496 on: January 19, 2018, 08:48:33 am »
Loosy goosy range switch:
https://youtu.be/7E2Pjcogrho?t=5m28s
And that was April 2017, kinda disappointing it didn't 'get worked on'.  :-\

It did.
That video is from April 2016, not 2017, see the date code on the back, that video wasn't released until much later. It was the first prototype that used a PIC24 processor. It was not the final range switch.
We have had no problems with the range switch since then. I'm surprised to hear about any issues to do with the range switch.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 08:50:23 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline exe

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #497 on: January 19, 2018, 09:15:20 am »
What I am wondering about, is that the felt majority of posts is about the ohm autoranging speed and other cosmetic deficiencies.

Autoranging speed is not a cosmetic problem (for those who actually use the meter). Same for beeper, etc, these are significant usability flaws. At least for me. I think most people underrate comfort and productivity of tools. I'm glad you consider this a "minor annoyance". But there are other opinions on this.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #498 on: January 19, 2018, 09:18:09 am »
What I am wondering about, is that the felt majority of posts is about the ohm autoranging speed and other cosmetic deficiencies.

Autoranging speed is not a cosmetic problem (for those who actually use the meter). Same for beeper, etc, these are significant usability flaws. At least for me. I think most people underrate comfort and productivity of tools. I'm glad you consider this a "minor annoyance". But there are other opinions on this.

Alright, we get it.  :horse:

No need to post on this subject any more until Dave officially says "fixed/not fixable".  :horse: :horse:

 
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Offline markb82

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Re: New EEVBlog-Branded Multimeter Coming?
« Reply #499 on: January 19, 2018, 10:39:22 pm »
It did.
That video is from April 2016, not 2017, see the date code on the back, that video wasn't released until much later. It was the first prototype that used a PIC24 processor. It was not the final range switch.
We have had no problems with the range switch since then. I'm surprised to hear about any issues to do with the range switch.

From the video it is hard to compare.  But here is a video of my range switch dancing:

 


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