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Need help! Test bench equipment recommendations. $2k+ budget
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pope:
Great advices here  :-+
kcbrown:

--- Quote from: bdunham7 on March 29, 2022, 02:48:26 am ---
--- Quote from: geneonline on March 29, 2022, 01:28:08 am ---Which situations cause it to lag? Is it a lag or just doesnt work at all? For what it can do, I completely ok with a little bit of slowness at times when doing hard tasks.

--- End quote ---

After 14  or so Red Bulls,  some people--the ones that text at 2000 thumbstrokes per minute--blow a gasket if their chosen device of the moment doesn't properly buffer and respond instantly to the 700 tasks they've jammed into it.  Those are the people that complain about 'slow' or 'laggy' UIs. 

--- End quote ---

While I do type at 100 words a minute (though not on a phone.  I hate typing on a phone.  I make too many mistakes and it's maddening), I don't have a problem with somewhat slow UIs.

But the problem I was having with the UI on the Siglent was much worse than that.  The problem I was having is that it would ignore my inputs.

Well, this thread prompted me to take action.  See, the issue is that what I was primarily using to gauge responsiveness to the front panel was the timebase setting.  And the issue I was having is that I'd turn the timebase knob and it would only acknowledge some of the "clicks".  If I moved it only one click, it was random whether or not it would respond to that.  This, of course, was maddening.   The fact that it's a digital encoder, worked only some of the time, and where it worked didn't seem to depend on the rotational position of the knob led me to believe that the issue had to be the operating system, and that everyone else just ignored it.

But it occurred to me, finally, that it couldn't be this bad for most others, because most other people praise the UI as being reasonably responsive.

So I had two choices: send the unit to Siglent for warranty repair and wait perhaps months, or replace the encoder myself, and take advantage of the opportunity to replace the multifunction knob with a detented encoder.  I chose the latter.

Turns out that it was indeed the encoder after all (the solder joints all looked fine).  The UI (the timebase in particular) is now much better.

But, naturally, nothing I do ever works completely right the first time.  In this case, it appears Siglent used encoders that generate output that is the reverse of that which normal encoders generate.  I used the same encoders for both the timebase (and the volts/div) as well as for the trigger position and the multifunction knob.  The replacements work properly for the trigger position and the multifunction knob.  They work in reverse for the timebase and the volts/div setting.  The difference between those two groups is that the timebase and volts/div were already detented encoders, and those apparently encoded in reverse of what the smooth encoders do.  Now they all encode in the same way, resulting in the timebase and volts/div working backwards.

Sigh.  I just can't ever win completely.   >:(

But the good news is that the front panel now works properly, though it previously got somewhat sluggish under the right circumstances (when the scope is doing a lot of processing, like when you've got an FFT going, along with a large capture buffer and other measurements).  With my fixed encoders in place, I'll have to gain some experience with the scope to see if the other responsiveness issues I'd occasionally seen are gone.


I guess I'll have to go back to my comments where I complained about the responsiveness of the scope and update them to reflect this latest development.  But note that I had occasionally managed to get the scope into a state where it would ignore the front panel buttons themselves (e.g., the run/stop button).  It'll be interesting to see if my surgery has somehow fixed that (can't see how it would, but you never know).


I'm halfway tempted to get encoders of the same kind that I used (can't remember the brand right now but they're good ones) but which encode in reverse, open the scope up, and replace the timebase and volts/div encoders with those.  But disassembling the scope enough to remove the encoder board and, especially, disconnecting and reconnecting the encoder board's ribbon cables, was a real pain that I'd rather not repeat if I can help it.

EDIT: Yeah, I could simply cross-connect the A and B lines on the two encoders by cutting the leads and soldering wires between the (now truncated) terminals and the pads on the board.  But that's a kludge, and I tend to prefer something a bit more professional.   But I might have no choice.  I'm not having any luck finding an encoder that matches what Siglent seems to be using.  :(   Might be better just to live with this.  In a way, having them reversed "makes sense".  We usually associate clockwise rotation with an increase in something, and counterclockwise with a decrease.  An increase in the amount of time per division, and similarly an increase in volts per division, is what the current setup gets me.  It operates opposite of what most scopes do, but it does make a certain kind of sense.  That said, I'd prefer that it work the way it was designed to.  Sigh...
geneonline:

--- Quote from: kcbrown on March 31, 2022, 05:06:18 am ---"...The problem I was having is that it would ignore my inputs..."
"timebase knob and it would only acknowledge some of the "clicks"."
But it occurred to me, finally, that it couldn't be this bad for most others, because most other people praise the UI as being reasonably responsive.
"...the multifunction knob with a detented encoder.."
"...Turns out that it was indeed the encoder after all (the solder joints all looked fine).  The UI (the timebase in particular) is now much better"
"Now they all encode in the same way, resulting in the timebase and volts/div working backwards..."
"...the good news is that the front panel now works properly..."
"...note that I had occasionally managed to get the scope into a state where it would ignore the front panel buttons themselves (e.g., the run/stop button)..."

"I'm halfway tempted to get encoders of the same kind that I used (can't remember the brand right now but they're good ones) but which encode in reverse, open the scope up, and replace the timebase and volts/div encoders with those.  But disassembling the scope enough to remove the encoder board and, especially, disconnecting and reconnecting the encoder board's ribbon cables, was a real pain that I'd rather not repeat if I can help it."

--- End quote ---

Thank you for pointing this out on the unit! I have seen other Siglent devices in videos showing knobs not correctly registering minute details consistently. This is the first I'm really hearing about it on a product that is a step up in the price line up. I was wishfully hopeful of a flawless unit with many ranting and raving. Almost second guessing, but there is problems with the other brands too, if not more cumbersome. Will need to roll this lottery for how mine will turn out.  :scared:

How was the process swapping the encoders? I just finished browsing the service manual for disassembly. A little tedious for sure when buying a brand new and potential voiding warranty. Hoping this sore spot has been address with production of
 units being out for a bit. Seen some improvements have been made with firmware updates, no idea if it would help here as I don't have the device yet to review. I'll prob dig into threads about swapping them later when I begin worrying before bed. Looks like I'll be watching Dave's tear down on this for the n-th time for this process.:-//

Your explanation was clear detailing what to test and something to potentially expect in the future.  :-+ I'm very appreciative.

All other aspects of the oscilloscope work well during testing and using for you?

Would you be able to speak in detail how your experiences were in regard if other Siglent devices, if you own, have the a similar issue?
geneonline:
Just found a post about something similar to which I was looking for...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-bugs-missing-features-feature-requests/
kcbrown:

--- Quote from: geneonline on March 31, 2022, 08:28:23 am ---Thank you for pointing this out on the unit! I have seen other Siglent devices in videos showing knobs not correctly registering minute details consistently. This is the first I'm really hearing about it on a product that is a step up in the price line up. I was wishfully hopeful of a flawless unit with many ranting and raving. Almost second guessing, but there is problems with the other brands too, if not more cumbersome. Will need to roll this lottery for how mine will turn out.  :scared:

--- End quote ---

The scope itself is good enough that it's worth buying.  If my experience with the encoders in this model was common then I'd have expected to see a lot more on it.  So I think you'll be safe in buying it.



--- Quote ---How was the process swapping the encoders?

--- End quote ---

The main issue was with disconnecting and reconnecting the ribbon cables that connect to the encoder board, a necessity because removal of the encoder board is a prerequisite of getting to the backside of it to desolder the offending encoders.  There are two of these ribbon cables, one on the side of the encoder board and one on the top, and both are connected to the underside of the encoder board. 

The ribbon on the top goes through a slot in the plate the motherboard attaches to (and which provides structure that the motherboard, the encoder board, and the display all attach to) and attaches to the primary side of the motherboard.  This has to be disconnected first.  There is very little room to work with here (well, relative to my clumsy fingers, at any rate), because the position of the connector on the motherboard is very close to the lip of the plate (this makes reattaching the cable even more difficult than removing it).  There is tape that is used to secure the ribbon in place, and you have to lift that first before you can unlatch the connector and remove the ribbon. 

For the cable on the side, the display is in the way and has to be moved out of the way, and there are a number of connections to the display, enough that it's better to just lay the display upside down, pivoting from its bottom where its main ribbon connector is.  Once the display is out of the way, removing the side ribbon from the encoder board isn't really a problem.  It, too, is secured with tape, which of course has to be lifted before the connector's latch can be disengaged.  I tried to do this without moving the display, and managed to succeed, but it would have been a lot easier if I had moved the display as I described.  I ended up having to move the display in order to reconnect this ribbon cable.



--- Quote ---I just finished browsing the service manual for disassembly. A little tedious for sure when buying a brand new and potential voiding warranty. Hoping this sore spot has been address with production of units being out for a bit. Seen some improvements have been made with firmware updates, no idea if it would help here as I don't have the device yet to review.

--- End quote ---

I'm on the latest version of the firmware.  Believe me, my issue was most certainly a hardware issue.  Because of that, I have to throw my prior experience with the front panel out the window.  It's just not valid to presume that the issues are still present when this particular hardware issue might have been causing problems for the entire front panel, even if I can't think of a way that it could that was consistent with my overall experience (argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy, after all.  :) ).



--- Quote ---I'll prob dig into threads about swapping them later when I begin worrying before bed. Looks like I'll be watching Dave's tear down on this for the n-th time for this process.:-//

--- End quote ---

Dave's teardown annoyingly skips over the majority of the disassembly process, and he never disassembled it to the point of getting at the encoder board.  Getting to the encoder board requires removal of the front bezel assembly, which requires removal of the sticker that shows the colors of the inputs and other information.  There are three screws behind that sticker.  Removing this without damaging it required the use of a heat gun (on low setting: 100 degC for mine, as low as it would go) and a plastic razor blade. 

I haven't put the sticker back yet, and am interested in any suggestions as to an adhesive that is strong enough to keep the sticker in place but weak enough to make removal of the sticker easy enough that it won't be damaged by the forces involved.  Something like the adhesive used on painter's tape.  Any ideas?

As an alternative, I'm thinking of punching holes in the sticker where the screws are, but this will remove some of the printed text, so I'm reluctant to do that (and besides, it'll compromise the appearance, which isn't the end of the world, but is still a downside).



--- Quote ---Your explanation was clear detailing what to test and something to potentially expect in the future.  :-+ I'm very appreciative.

--- End quote ---

My pleasure.   :)


--- Quote ---All other aspects of the oscilloscope work well during testing and using for you?

--- End quote ---

Pretty much.  There are a few quirks with the decoding, for instance: it'll only decode what's present on the screen, even if what's on the screen is only a subset of what was captured.  The scope itself uses a "what you see is all you get" approach to capture.  There's lots of threads on this, but the upshot is that the screen boundaries define the time boundaries of the capture, making it trivial to know exactly what you're going to get in the capture.  This tends to throw off some people, who expect the scope to use the entirety of memory for that single capture No Matter What.  You can get this scope to use the entirety of memory by increasing the time per division until the amount of memory shown in the timebase box stops increasing (of course, this presumes you've told the scope that the maximum amount of memory it should use for a capture is the amount of memory it actually has, otherwise it'll use the remaining memory to retain prior captures).  This is where zoom mode comes into its own.  You put the entire capture on the main screen, and use the zoom mode screen to show the portion of the capture that you're interested in.

There are other little annoyances.  For instance, if you've got the table of decoded values showing, you cannot use it to go to the portion of the capture that contains the value you've selected. 

But overall, the scope is really awesome.



--- Quote ---Would you be able to speak in detail how your experiences were in regard if other Siglent devices, if you own, have the a similar issue?

--- End quote ---

I have an SDS-1204X-E as well.  It doesn't have the encoder issue we're talking about here (nothing else I have does, not like that).  It does have a problem with the UI locking up solid on me if I leave it on for really extended periods of time (many weeks).  This is a bug in the firmware for sure.  I know this because I sent my scope in to have it checked out, they weren't really able to reproduce the issue consistently enough to determine a root cause (no surprise, given the amount of time it takes to see the issue), they sent me a replacement (different hardware version and everything), and the replacement turns out to have the very same issue.  The UI is recoverable if you're able to connect to the scope over the network when it gets into this state.  Otherwise you have to forcibly power the scope off (hold the power button down like you would a laptop) and power it on again.

My SDS-2104X+ doesn't have that problem.  I've left it on continuously and it always responds when I do something (encoder issues notwithstanding) even after weeks of inactivity.

--

Since I own both the SDS-2104X+ and the SDS-1204X-E and have experience with both, I can tell you from experience that the SDS-2104X+ is easily worth the price of admission if you can stretch for it.  Its implementation of zoom mode by itself is worth the price of admission: it's done properly in the SDS-2104X+.  Even the mask test is capable of being used in zoom mode.  It makes up for all (or nearly all.  There may be something I'm overlooking) of the shortcomings of the "what you see is all you get" capture approach that Siglent (and, apparently, LeCroy) uses.
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