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| Need help! Test bench equipment recommendations. $2k+ budget |
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| geneonline:
My scenario: Currently a college electrical/computer engineer student wanting to build a test bench for home use for course work, clubs, personal projects, and professional work in the future. Looking to purchase a little bit better than entry level gear for future proofing, quality, and functionally. My current course load is mainly focusing on building simple electronics, making circuits for devices, programming, soldering, measuring, and testing. In the future it will ramp up into analog and digital communications, mircoprocessors, systems analysis, robotics, integrated circuits and devices, feedback control systems to name a few. It will be a wide variety of things and I would like to be prepared to do many of the things at home as hanging out in the college lab after my class is over when other classes are going on isnt really ideal. I also function best during off hours. Plus, the professor doesn't let us take the test equipment home so we must work on anything and everything in the classroom till we get our own equipment at home if we want. What I would like to do is diagnose and repair everyday electronics, make pc parts, make peripherals from scratch that interface with pc and other devices, build and program drones/robotics from scratch, repair pc components on the hardware level, displays, reverse engineer and build/program my own e-vehicle - ebikes, escooter. Networking and some audio, but not really my main focus. Just building, designing, and programming systems from the ground up. Anything with electricity is far game tbh. Future: Which career specialization I plan to go into is all up in the air. It's all really exciting and fun to work on many different aspects of tech right now. At campus we mainly have a lot of tecktronix/keithley and dk precision to work with at each seat: PC's loaded with all the programs. Keithley 2231A-30-3 DC power supply Keithley DMM6500 Bench DMM Tecktronix TDS 2012B Oscilloscope Tektronix AFG 1022 Function generator BK precision's equivalent of items above. Hantech DSO8072E All-in-one Solmax 456DLX Soldering Station A lot of other specialized equipment in the lab that I'm not in the class yet to use. Cool stuff but out of my price range. I understand that these are more student/lab accurate. Once I find employment I could may get to see better stuff, but I need to keep it somewhat reasonable for now. I have about $2k Budget for spending on additional gear right now. I can stretch the budget and can build out more as time goes on. For my DMM I have a Fluke 88V (Purchased awhile ago due to needing to work on some car stuff at home. Also seemed like good idea at the time. Ok for now but know its not a true bench DMM). DC Power Supply: purchased the Rigol DP832 to hack into a 832A. Seemed like a solid choice as I wanted a multi channel, linear power supply, programmable, quick adjustability on the fly, and I like buttons and a dial to set. Not building my own rn. Maybe later for a higher voltage from an old pc PSU.(Just ordered so can return if there is a strong argument to get something that performs better, more accurate, has a better price, and functionality. the forums here and the videos on build quality were what lead me to pick this). I have some helping hands, really generic nonadjustable soldering iron, electrostatic mats and a wrist strap, Dremel, power tools, and plenty of manual tools from fixing previous phones, building pcs, daily electronics, fixing my own vehicles, and stuff around the house. Equipment I currently need recommendations for: Oscilloscope, Function generator, soldering station with fume extractor, heat gun (for loosening up chips, resistors, capacitors). Recommendations for future items: Bench DMM, Logic Analyzer, Electronic Load, maybe a Vector Signal Generator, maybe some other stuff I can't think of right now. I noticed that some oscilloscopes have a few of these capabilities already, some better than others. Some forum posts say its better to get a stand alone unit. Oscilloscope are an old debate and keeps getting brought up over which to get, but I would like help for my current situation. The more I read, the more I get confused on which is a good purchase. I've compared charts and read many posts, but would the Rigol MSO 5104(hacked) for the better lead or MSO 5074 be best for my needs? Would the Siglent SDS2104X Plus (hacked) with it's lower front end noise be better for my application? It's a hefty 1000-1300$ investment and trying to cover all my bases with this to last a long time. Both having waveform generators and some ability to logic analyze. I'm fine with recommendations for other brands, models, products. 1500$ is the most I can justify for a oscilloscope since if it's good, I can use it for a lot of different things, but need to leave some money for the other things I need right now. Prob stressing over this topic for no reason and prob overkill. Should i shoot for a lower cost oscilloscope, and get a better for a logic analyzer to hook up to a pc, and save the rest for other equipment that pops up? No idea what is highly recommended for a soldering station or heating gun for electronics. Saw a few videos of some really cool solder vacuum which would be nice to clean up my messes. Advice from you readers who use these daily would be more knowledgeable. I haven't started looking into a function generator to balance with the other purchases. Very open to good suggestions about solid bench DMM as I'll prob get one sooner than later. Any other recommendations for future tools for the bench would be much appreciated too! Thanks for reading and for any suggestions! |
| TopQuark:
Fellow college student here, just about to finish my undergraduate degree and have built up quite a lab throughout my studies. My home lab have allowed me to build projects for school, my robotics club, start a tech company (now defunct :P) and got a EE part time job working from home. I'd say it is well worth investing in a good home lab, it allows you to hone your skill as an engineer and brings you so many opportunities. My advice is to start with a modest set of equipment and slowly build your collection out. You will know what gear you NEED when you actually need it, and when you don't know what you need, just spend the money on the basics to get you going, and keep the money for later when you need to spend the big bucks for specific equipment. For example, if you later go the embedded route, you'll probably need to spend on a J-Link, a logic analyser, power profiler, high speed probes etc. If you go for RF stuff, you'll need a spectrum analyser, vector network analyser, precision hot tweezers for tweaking 0201 passives etc. Go power electronics? You will need current probes, diff probes, high power supplies, fire extinguishers :-DD etc. Point is, it is hard to tell what route you'll end up going, so it is harder still to say how to spend your money right now. Also allocate a chunk of budget for a good collection of components, having parts handy allows you to build out prototypes and test ideas much faster! I think 30% to 40% of my lab's worth is in components. Have a collection of opamps (fast ones, low noise ones, high power ones, low drift ones... :scared:), have a collection of passive components from through hole to SMD, have a collection of BJTs and MOSFETs for signal and power stuff, the list goes on and on. Can't tell you exactly what gear to buy, as it is your money not mine, and different people have different priorities and quality standards, but I can tell you my journey. For oscilloscopes I started with a DS1052E I think 8 years ago, sold it and swapped it for a DS1054Z and swapped it again for a SDS2074x Plus hacked to 500MHz, paid a bit over 1k USD for it. If you are entering the market now, I really suggest you look for a scope that can do bode plots, you'll learn a hell lot from it (power supply stability analysis, filter response, component characterisation etc.). Bandwidth is not as important as one think, rarely do I measure stuff up to 100 MHz, and for the rare case I need high bandwidth (high speed digital, RF etc.), even 500 MHz on my current scope won't cut it. Function generator is something I don't use too often, and for years I was happy with a 20 MHz second hand Rigol DG1022 I got for less than 100 USD. It is until recently I wanted to do bode plots up to 100 MHz, that I ordered a SGD2042x that I plan to hack to 120 MHz. A function gen is not something I use daily, unlike my scope, soldering gear etc. Soldering station really depends on what you can tolerate I think. Personally I love soldering and I sometimes just solder for the sake of doing it to enjoy a zen moment. I have around 5kg of the best quality silver loaded, leaded, multicore solder on hand in case they ban the sales of the leaded stuff. Like most people I started with a crappy non adjustable plug in iron, upgraded a few times and in the process have tried crappy chinese stations, Hakko Fx-950, Goot Rx-802, chinese JBC knock-off, built my own Weller RT station. What I finally settled on is the Metcal mx-5200 with the standard and ultrafine hand pieces, and a second hand Metcal mx-500 with the Hakko fx-1003 precision hot tweezers. IMO the Metcal induction system is the best performer, period. The heat recovery is second to none, the tip to grip distance and ergonomics is simply the best. I consider it to be my endgame. Could I have settled on the Hakko Fx-950? Of course, but I'll admit I am a snob when it comes to soldering, and I have probably spent to much on soldering gear, but no regrets so far. ;D For hot air stations I found the stations with the fan built into the stationary unit performs the best, as opposed to having the fan in the handpiece. I owned the Quick 957DW, loved the simplicity and performance. Later upgraded to the classic 861DW when I had a project involving copper core PCBs. I still miss the UI (knobs) of the 957DW. I grew up with asthma so fume extraction is a must for me. I have a Quick 6101 fume extractor and it does the job. Also stole my mum's dyson air purifier fan and placed it on my work bench, it works well. Bench DMM is something nice to have, but not really necessary. I think universities prefer them as it is harder for students to steal them :-DD. I have a 2nd hand Keithley 2000 but it does not get used as often as my Brymen 869s by far. You rarely need the extra digits. For logic analysers I have a DS lab logic analyser, it is the best bang per buck till this day I think. But once again, I rarely use it. If you have a software issue, a debugger (e.g. J-Link) is way way more useful. If I suspect there's some issue in hardware, I use my scope to check for SI issues at the same time. I'd say a logic analyser is not essential for most work. A 4 channel scope and a suitable debugger (depending on what architecture of chips you work with) should be your priority. Electronic load I have a used 150W unit made by Array, it draws current, it does it's job, but I don't use it often not because it does not perform well, but a electronic load is not always the right load for the job. If I want to test a DUT under load for EMC, I don't use my mains connected load as it messes up the reading. For testing transient response of power supplies, most electronic loads are not fast enough, and you'll probably roll your own dynamic load. What I often fall back to a just a big old 200W pot, it does not oscillate, it does not inject noise into your circuit, it is floating, it is simple and it works. Hope I have helped a bit in your purchasing decisions, I can talk about this stuff all day ahaha. |
| geneonline:
@TopQuark, you've definitely gave me a great place to start! I agree it's still a little early to think about investing big into purchases, but also see the value in skipping over the cheapest alternative and grabbing something a little better to last like some of the items you've currently are using. Does seem like many different items to invest into and may fall into a similar path of joining up with my robotics club, collecting enough equipment to put my skills to use for money on the side, and hoarding a little bit of everything. I do get the feeling regardless what I buy now, it'll never be powerful enough to handle everything. Looking up some of the devices for the areas you mentioned is going to get expensive really quick! Luckily I have a fire extinguisher already and can cross that off my list :phew:. Since you've settled on the SDS2074x plus I can be confident I wont need to trade out for a long time if I get a similar tier like that. I agree it's overkill for me right now and should invest in the other equipment as things pop up. Will put a little more research and emphasis in finding a product with good bode plotting. Function gen will be a lesser purchase since I won't need to go very high frequencies for a while. I'm thankful you pointed out the tips with the soldering station. Coming to the realization now, many going into tech will be spending a lot of time with one and I over looked hot tweezers completely! --- Quote from: TopQuark on March 28, 2022, 02:52:17 am ---For logic analyzers I have a DS lab logic analyzer, it is the best bang per buck till this day I think. But once again, I rarely use it. If you have a software issue, a debugger (e.g. J-Link) is way way more useful. If I suspect there's some issue in hardware, I use my scope to check for SI issues at the same time. I'd say a logic analyzer is not essential for most work. A 4 channel scope and a suitable debugger (depending on what architecture of chips you work with) should be your priority. --- End quote --- Can you recommend a few decent debuggers for typical in use architectures or is there some that may be versatile? --- Quote from: TopQuark on March 28, 2022, 02:52:17 am ---...I can talk about this stuff all day ahaha. --- End quote --- It is so much fun checking out all the gear, but when it's time to buy and settle on just one thing out of everything, the choice gets hard the more you look at it! There is really so much to choose from! |
| bdunham7:
--- Quote from: geneonline on March 28, 2022, 12:44:11 am ---Equipment I currently need recommendations for: Oscilloscope, Function generator, soldering station with fume extractor, heat gun (for loosening up chips, resistors, capacitors). --- End quote --- Sure, we'd love to spend your money for you! But I'd spend some time reading some past discussions so you can understand the pros and cons of each model, there have been extensive discussions about most of these. My picks are: Scope: Siglent SDS2104X+ for many reasons, but of course it isn't perfect. SDS1104X-E is also an excellent budget choice, but don't bother with the logic probe feature. FG: Siglent SDS2042X w/ hack. The SDS2104X+ has a basic FG built in, so you might not even need an FG right now. Feeltech FY6900 also works if you don't mind the toy-like quality and the need for some easy modifications. Soldering station: Hakko FX888D is the minimum, IMO. It works, they have a nice selection of tips. Next up is the very nice Pace ADS200B, also IMO. Consider hot tweezers later (expensive) and make your own fume extractor. Hot air station: I have an ultra-cheap Sumsour (generic) 858D that works for small and medium stuff. If you want to spend a bit more, perhaps the Atten ST-862D. I'd also recommend a desoldering vacuum of some sort. I have the Hakko FR-301, but it isn't cheap. Pro's Kit and others make some less expensive ones that apparently work just fine. --- Quote ---Recommendations for future items: Bench DMM, Logic Analyzer, Electronic Load, maybe a Vector Signal Generator, maybe some other stuff I can't think of right now. --- End quote --- Bench DMM: Fluke 8846A. I'm probably the only person who will recommend that and most would consider it outdated and way too expensive--and that's probably true. You'd have to use one on a daily basis to appreciate it. Logic Analyzer: I have the logic probe for the SDS2104X+ and I often need to correlate analog channels to the logic ones. A separate PC-based one might be handier for other things. VSG: Those get quite expensive, have a look at Signal Hound. |
| TopQuark:
SDS2074x plus (cheaper still, only available in my neck of the woods) / SDS2104x plus is definitely a good buy, think it is the cheapest way to get a 500 MHz bandwidth new scope. The last Rigol scope I had, the 1054z, was really laggy and the software was rarely updated, it really left a sour taste in my mouth. Seeing all the software issues that plague the MSO5000 and the high noise floor made me turn away from Rigol. All the recent purchases (scope, func gen, spectrum analyser) I made was from Siglent, very happy with them so far. My boss at work was so impressed by the Siglent scope that we bought them for work. The only Rigol gear I still own is the DP832. The used equipment market is quite fluid, especially in your part of the world, I wouldn't worry too much about starting modest and selling stuff once your needs out grow it. I had no trouble selling my previous scopes. I work on ARM cortex-M (STM32, NRF52, EFM32, SAMD51 etc.) exclusively, and I recommend the J-Link from Segger, it is the least pain in the a** to work with, and the software that works with it (Ozone) is really powerful. If you want to stay completely open source or program in Rust, the Black Magic Probe is a good alternative though less powerful. edit: If you go with the Siglent SDS2104x plus, you can make a DIY logic probe for cheap (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-logic-analyzer-probe-and-pods-for-siglent-scopes/), so you don't even need to buy a logic analyser. Also, the scope has a built in AWG as mentioned, and can do bode plots up to 50 MHz. |
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