Author Topic: Design a New Precision LCR Tweezers with Much Lower Cost(Video Attached)  (Read 5274 times)

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Offline tautech

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Cap Measurement Noise performance video

The screen measurement data update rate is 2 samples per second, which is much faster than the other high precision SMD testers, and there are about 100 samples record for 5pF cap measurement
[video link]
Very good and much better than my 2007 ST3.  :-+
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Online masterx81

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Some questions:  in the video, in "hold" mode seem that the "beep" is played when there isn't anymore contact with the component. Isn't better that is played when there is a stable reading? Or maybe it's the video a bit off sync?
The plastics of the case, doesn't deteriorate due to the constant bending? Of what material is made?
In any case, seem a really valid product  :-+
 

Online Shannon

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Some questions:  in the video, in "hold" mode seem that the "beep" is played when there isn't anymore contact with the component. Isn't better that is played when there is a stable reading? Or maybe it's the video a bit off sync?
The plastics of the case, doesn't deteriorate due to the constant bending? Of what material is made?
In any case, seem a really valid product  :-+
Thanks masterx81 ;D

As I discussed with Silversolder, hold function is checking the “letting go” moment at present, after the tips leaving DUT, the screen would display the stable value which is measured before leaving, so the beep would be late, I guess this is the problem, and I will double check the code and the influence of video cut operation

For the plastic case for the arms, it would use ABS case, we do find some LCR tweezers arm plastic case is broken, the cause is tweezers arm is not hard enough, user bend the arm to make tips align, after many times bending, the arm case is broken, and tweezers’ arm are soft and bent, the tips are never aligned again

For this tweezers’ arm, we have tried many different materials to make mechanical design much more stable, every testing has few influence on the arms’ shape change, and the arm case would be safety
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Online Shannon

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Cap Measurement Noise performance video

The screen measurement data update rate is 2 samples per second, which is much faster than the other high precision SMD testers, and there are about 100 samples record for 5pF cap measurement
[video link]
Very good and much better than my 2007 ST3.  :-+
Thanks tautech

BTW, Do you have any idea to make more guys know about this tweezers?
The number of visitors for the video is quite small :palm:
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Offline tautech

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BTW, Do you have any idea to make more guys know about this tweezers?
Patience my friend the word is slowly spreading.  ;)

We need product not just videos and you said you plan to implement firmware updates hopefully by USB.
Get the HW right and most of the features polished and later USB updates working and enable the kickstarter and the support will come.

If your product is better than others do not be afraid to show how in tables and videos.
Remember if you had that existing product and a competitor started they would not be afraid to walk on you to get their product out. Simple side by side tests will show their/your product for what it is.
Good luck, you know I am behind you with interest in a small order.
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Online indman

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BTW, Do you have any idea to make more guys know about this tweezers?
When you have polished and adjusted all the functions and ideas that were proposed, then send some test samples to people who can objectively test(compare) your tweezers against other similar devices. Such people will also be able to make a detailed review of your product as well as post it on the most popular technical Internet resources.
For example, I can help with advertising among the Russian-speaking population. :D
 
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Offline Zlotnik

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Some questions:  in the video, in "hold" mode seem that the "beep" is played when there isn't anymore contact with the component. Isn't better that is played when there is a stable reading? Or maybe it's the video a bit off sync?
As I discussed with Silversolder, hold function is checking the “letting go” moment at present, after the tips leaving DUT, the screen would display the stable value which is measured before leaving, so the beep would be late,

For the hold function, my preferred operation would be:

1) Touch DUT with tweezers.
2) Tweezers register transition from open input to DUT and begin measuring. Measurements are displayed and updated live.
3) Hold contact to DUT for a bit. Screen is updating all the while.
4) Tweezers beep after delay T
5) Tweezers stop live display of measurements and display hold-value. (Eg median between start of "stable" values and time of beep)
6) Remove tweezers from DUT. Tweezers measure open, but continue to display hold-value on screen.
7) Operator reads tweezers at their leisure
7) Start next measurement by going to step 1)

It would be good to have the delay configurable and to be able activate/deactivate the hold mode.

Speaking of configuration, it would be good to remember the last setting when the tweezers wake up, but to also have a very simple way to go back to a (configurable?) default. Maybe a long press of the button gives a pop-up with "save state as new default (left), revert to default (right)".
This way the tweezers are always in the state you expect them to be in.
 

Online Shannon

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BTW, Do you have any idea to make more guys know about this tweezers?
When you have polished and adjusted all the functions and ideas that were proposed, then send some test samples to people who can objectively test(compare) your tweezers against other similar devices. Such people will also be able to make a detailed review of your product as well as post it on the most popular technical Internet resources.
For example, I can help with advertising among the Russian-speaking population. :D
Thanks indman,

Is the English interface unfriendly for Russian-speaking people? I found many local Russian projects using Russian as the main language.
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Online masterx81

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For the hold function, my preferred operation would be:

1) Touch DUT with tweezers.
2) Tweezers register transition from open input to DUT and begin measuring. Measurements are displayed and updated live.
3) Hold contact to DUT for a bit. Screen is updating all the while.
4) Tweezers beep after delay T
5) Tweezers stop live display of measurements and display hold-value. (Eg median between start of "stable" values and time of beep)
6) Remove tweezers from DUT. Tweezers measure open, but continue to display hold-value on screen.
7) Operator reads tweezers at their leisure
7) Start next measurement by going to step 1)

It would be good to have the delay configurable and to be able activate/deactivate the hold mode.

Speaking of configuration, it would be good to remember the last setting when the tweezers wake up, but to also have a very simple way to go back to a (configurable?) default. Maybe a long press of the button gives a pop-up with "save state as new default (left), revert to default (right)".
This way the tweezers are always in the state you expect them to be in.
I think that would be better to stop the reading and do a beep not after a fixed delay, but after are taken some (3~5) samples within a certain % tollerance.
 

Online Shannon

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Some questions:  in the video, in "hold" mode seem that the "beep" is played when there isn't anymore contact with the component. Isn't better that is played when there is a stable reading? Or maybe it's the video a bit off sync?
As I discussed with Silversolder, hold function is checking the “letting go” moment at present, after the tips leaving DUT, the screen would display the stable value which is measured before leaving, so the beep would be late,

For the hold function, my preferred operation would be:

1) Touch DUT with tweezers.
2) Tweezers register transition from open input to DUT and begin measuring. Measurements are displayed and updated live.
3) Hold contact to DUT for a bit. Screen is updating all the while.
4) Tweezers beep after delay T
5) Tweezers stop live display of measurements and display hold-value. (Eg median between start of "stable" values and time of beep)
6) Remove tweezers from DUT. Tweezers measure open, but continue to display hold-value on screen.
7) Operator reads tweezers at their leisure
7) Start next measurement by going to step 1)

It would be good to have the delay configurable and to be able activate/deactivate the hold mode.

Speaking of configuration, it would be good to remember the last setting when the tweezers wake up, but to also have a very simple way to go back to a (configurable?) default. Maybe a long press of the button gives a pop-up with "save state as new default (left), revert to default (right)".
This way the tweezers are always in the state you expect them to be in.
Thanks Zlotnik

Sounds good, it's another solution, and the processing logic is simple and direct, There's just a little bit of uncertainty, if the measurement result at delay "T" is unfortunate not stable or not accurate, the user needs to test it again.
we will test this processing method, and comparing those different ways to select the better one, the Beep notice gives user confidence, which may make users feel better

These tweezers have recorded the last settings, such as test mode, so it would be the same setting at next time waking up.
And the key push down is "QUICKSET" and push down is "AUTONOW", and push down again, it would be automode
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Online indman

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Thanks indman,
Is the English interface unfriendly for Russian-speaking people? I found many local Russian projects using Russian as the main language.
The English language should not present any difficulty in understanding for technically literate people! However, if you have enough free memory in the processor, then Russian language support would expand the number of possible tweezers buyers. If you have difficulties translating menus and items into Russian, I could help you with this. :)
 

Online Shannon

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For the hold function, my preferred operation would be:

1) Touch DUT with tweezers.
2) Tweezers register transition from open input to DUT and begin measuring. Measurements are displayed and updated live.
3) Hold contact to DUT for a bit. Screen is updating all the while.
4) Tweezers beep after delay T
5) Tweezers stop live display of measurements and display hold-value. (Eg median between start of "stable" values and time of beep)
6) Remove tweezers from DUT. Tweezers measure open, but continue to display hold-value on screen.
7) Operator reads tweezers at their leisure
7) Start next measurement by going to step 1)

It would be good to have the delay configurable and to be able activate/deactivate the hold mode.

Speaking of configuration, it would be good to remember the last setting when the tweezers wake up, but to also have a very simple way to go back to a (configurable?) default. Maybe a long press of the button gives a pop-up with "save state as new default (left), revert to default (right)".
This way the tweezers are always in the state you expect them to be in.
I think that would be better to stop the reading and do a beep not after a fixed delay, but after are taken some (3~5) samples within a certain % tollerance.
Thanks masterx81,
you have the same idea with SilverSolder, and it's not hard to implement, the only concern is one sample would cost 0.5 seconds, and 5 samples would cost 2.5s, is it too long for one test  ???
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Online Shannon

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Thanks indman,
Is the English interface unfriendly for Russian-speaking people? I found many local Russian projects using Russian as the main language.
The English language should not present any difficulty in understanding for technically literate people! However, if you have enough free memory in the processor, then Russian language support would expand the number of possible tweezers buyers. If you have difficulties translating menus and items into Russian, I could help you with this. :)
Thanks indman,

we may consider that if we got many language requirements after massive production ;)
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God said, Let Newton be! and all was light.
 

Online SilverSolder

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For the hold function, my preferred operation would be:

1) Touch DUT with tweezers.
2) Tweezers register transition from open input to DUT and begin measuring. Measurements are displayed and updated live.
3) Hold contact to DUT for a bit. Screen is updating all the while.
4) Tweezers beep after delay T
5) Tweezers stop live display of measurements and display hold-value. (Eg median between start of "stable" values and time of beep)
6) Remove tweezers from DUT. Tweezers measure open, but continue to display hold-value on screen.
7) Operator reads tweezers at their leisure
7) Start next measurement by going to step 1)

It would be good to have the delay configurable and to be able activate/deactivate the hold mode.

Speaking of configuration, it would be good to remember the last setting when the tweezers wake up, but to also have a very simple way to go back to a (configurable?) default. Maybe a long press of the button gives a pop-up with "save state as new default (left), revert to default (right)".
This way the tweezers are always in the state you expect them to be in.
I think that would be better to stop the reading and do a beep not after a fixed delay, but after are taken some (3~5) samples within a certain % tollerance.
Thanks masterx81,
you have the same idea with SilverSolder, and it's not hard to implement, the only concern is one sample would cost 0.5 seconds, and 5 samples would cost 2.5s, is it too long for one test  ???


When you are bent over your desk, concentrating on a small PCB with tiny parts - perhaps while wearing magnifying visors or looking through a microscope etc - you REALLY don't want to have to be looking at the display of the tweezers while you are working, to "babysit" the tweezers and help it figure out when it has a stable reading.

Much better that you just concentrate on holding the tweezers steady on the component (i.e. you are looking at the component, not the display!), and wait for the small BEEP to tell you that the MCU has done the work of figuring out when the reading is stable, without you having to look at it.

It is a killer feature...  all you have to do is keep sampling until you have a stable reading.  If the user doesn't let go after the beep, keep on reading until the next beep time, and use 2x the time to do the math, and so on.  In other words, the more beeps the user holds it on for, the higher the reading quality.  -  kind of makes sense!



 

Online masterx81

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The device only update the screen every 0.5s, or get an analog reading every 0.5s?
 

Online SilverSolder

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Regarding the menu:  It can probably get quite wide and deep, if you pile in enough killer features in this product.

Digital cameras have the same problem, hundreds of advanced menu items that different photographers/artists use in different circumstances, depending on their art.

How about doing what some cameras do:  allow the user to select a few favourite menu items and have them displayed at the top level?  That way, the fact that there is only one button (joystick) on the device would not be a painful experience for daily use, where the owner normally only uses a handful of items in the menu (but each user can have a different handful!).


 

Online Shannon

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For the hold function, my preferred operation would be:

1) Touch DUT with tweezers.
2) Tweezers register transition from open input to DUT and begin measuring. Measurements are displayed and updated live.
3) Hold contact to DUT for a bit. Screen is updating all the while.
4) Tweezers beep after delay T
5) Tweezers stop live display of measurements and display hold-value. (Eg median between start of "stable" values and time of beep)
6) Remove tweezers from DUT. Tweezers measure open, but continue to display hold-value on screen.
7) Operator reads tweezers at their leisure
7) Start next measurement by going to step 1)

It would be good to have the delay configurable and to be able activate/deactivate the hold mode.

Speaking of configuration, it would be good to remember the last setting when the tweezers wake up, but to also have a very simple way to go back to a (configurable?) default. Maybe a long press of the button gives a pop-up with "save state as new default (left), revert to default (right)".
This way the tweezers are always in the state you expect them to be in.
I think that would be better to stop the reading and do a beep not after a fixed delay, but after are taken some (3~5) samples within a certain % tollerance.
Thanks masterx81,
you have the same idea with SilverSolder, and it's not hard to implement, the only concern is one sample would cost 0.5 seconds, and 5 samples would cost 2.5s, is it too long for one test  ???


When you are bent over your desk, concentrating on a small PCB with tiny parts - perhaps while wearing magnifying visors or looking through a microscope etc - you REALLY don't want to have to be looking at the display of the tweezers while you are working, to "babysit" the tweezers and help it figure out when it has a stable reading.

Much better that you just concentrate on holding the tweezers steady on the component (i.e. you are looking at the component, not the display!), and wait for the small BEEP to tell you that the MCU has done the work of figuring out when the reading is stable, without you having to look at it.

It is a killer feature...  all you have to do is keep sampling until you have a stable reading.  If the user doesn't let go after the beep, keep on reading until the next beep time, and use 2x the time to do the math, and so on.  In other words, the more beeps the user holds it on for, the higher the reading quality.  -  kind of makes sense!
haha, sounds great
the Hold function could use the average processing to get a better result, because the users could accept longer settling time for a more stable result.

We will try to implement this killer feature
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 04:02:35 pm by Shannon »
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Online Shannon

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The device only update the screen every 0.5s, or get an analog reading every 0.5s?
the measurement result updates every 0.5s ;)
the screen update rate is very fast, we can't feel that
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Online Shannon

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Regarding the menu:  It can probably get quite wide and deep, if you pile in enough killer features in this product.

Digital cameras have the same problem, hundreds of advanced menu items that different photographers/artists use in different circumstances, depending on their art.

How about doing what some cameras do:  allow the user to select a few favourite menu items and have them displayed at the top level?  That way, the fact that there is only one button (joystick) on the device would not be a painful experience for daily use, where the owner normally only uses a handful of items in the menu (but each user can have a different handful!).
We have set the first option of the menu as "QUICKSET",  which includes the most commonly used functions, such as the first one is  "AUTO" mode selection, and the second one is second parameter mode, R or D/Q

as you mentioned, Digital cameras have the same problem, most of the users prefer automode :palm:
so the default mode of tweezers is auto mode.

A user-defined menu sounds great, but a little bit complicated for such a small instrument, we may post the menu plan to make you know about those details, all the functions would be exposed by the menu list ;)
These tweezers will support firmware updating by USB,  if there are some guys have similar requirements as you said, we will consider the implementation of this function.
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God said, Let Newton be! and all was light.
 

Online SilverSolder

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Regarding the menu:  It can probably get quite wide and deep, if you pile in enough killer features in this product.

Digital cameras have the same problem, hundreds of advanced menu items that different photographers/artists use in different circumstances, depending on their art.

How about doing what some cameras do:  allow the user to select a few favourite menu items and have them displayed at the top level?  That way, the fact that there is only one button (joystick) on the device would not be a painful experience for daily use, where the owner normally only uses a handful of items in the menu (but each user can have a different handful!).
We have set the first option of the menu as "QUICKSET",  which includes the most commonly used functions, such as the first one is  "AUTO" mode selection, and the second one is second parameter mode, R or D/Q

as you mentioned, Digital cameras have the same problem, most of the users prefer automode :palm:
so the default mode of tweezers is auto mode.

A user-defined menu sounds great, but a little bit complicated for such a small instrument, we may post the menu plan to make you know about those details, all the functions would be exposed by the menu list ;)
These tweezers will support firmware updating by USB,  if there are some guys have similar requirements as you said, we will consider the implementation of this function.

A printed "menu tree" would be a great help.   I had the same problem with an old Laserjet printer - until I found that - cleverly - it can print its menu tree out from the control
panel!  -  Sadly it used 8 pages of paper to do that, which would then have to be glued together to make any sense...   LOL!  :D


 

Online SilverSolder

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For the hold function, my preferred operation would be:

1) Touch DUT with tweezers.
2) Tweezers register transition from open input to DUT and begin measuring. Measurements are displayed and updated live.
3) Hold contact to DUT for a bit. Screen is updating all the while.
4) Tweezers beep after delay T
5) Tweezers stop live display of measurements and display hold-value. (Eg median between start of "stable" values and time of beep)
6) Remove tweezers from DUT. Tweezers measure open, but continue to display hold-value on screen.
7) Operator reads tweezers at their leisure
7) Start next measurement by going to step 1)

It would be good to have the delay configurable and to be able activate/deactivate the hold mode.

Speaking of configuration, it would be good to remember the last setting when the tweezers wake up, but to also have a very simple way to go back to a (configurable?) default. Maybe a long press of the button gives a pop-up with "save state as new default (left), revert to default (right)".
This way the tweezers are always in the state you expect them to be in.
I think that would be better to stop the reading and do a beep not after a fixed delay, but after are taken some (3~5) samples within a certain % tollerance.
Thanks masterx81,
you have the same idea with SilverSolder, and it's not hard to implement, the only concern is one sample would cost 0.5 seconds, and 5 samples would cost 2.5s, is it too long for one test  ???


When you are bent over your desk, concentrating on a small PCB with tiny parts - perhaps while wearing magnifying visors or looking through a microscope etc - you REALLY don't want to have to be looking at the display of the tweezers while you are working, to "babysit" the tweezers and help it figure out when it has a stable reading.

Much better that you just concentrate on holding the tweezers steady on the component (i.e. you are looking at the component, not the display!), and wait for the small BEEP to tell you that the MCU has done the work of figuring out when the reading is stable, without you having to look at it.

It is a killer feature...  all you have to do is keep sampling until you have a stable reading.  If the user doesn't let go after the beep, keep on reading until the next beep time, and use 2x the time to do the math, and so on.  In other words, the more beeps the user holds it on for, the higher the reading quality.  -  kind of makes sense!
haha, sounds great
the Hold function could use the average processing to get a better result, because the users could accept longer settling time for a more stable result.

We will try to implement this killer feature

Yes.  There is always a trade-off between "Fast but not so precise" and "Precise but not so fast".   If the user can control that by simply holding the tweezers to the part longer, it would be superior!  Just keep sending those beeps, and the user will know to let go right after one of them - however many they want!  :D

I do appreciate that even a smart programmer would be challenged to implement this function in a way that works reliably.  But if you did, I think it would soon get a reputation of being the best tool of its type, worth spending a little more for than the cheapest ones.

Not having to look at the display while working with it, is YUUUUUGE!   :D
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 04:39:32 pm by SilverSolder »
 
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Online Shannon

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Regarding the menu:  It can probably get quite wide and deep, if you pile in enough killer features in this product.

Digital cameras have the same problem, hundreds of advanced menu items that different photographers/artists use in different circumstances, depending on their art.

How about doing what some cameras do:  allow the user to select a few favourite menu items and have them displayed at the top level?  That way, the fact that there is only one button (joystick) on the device would not be a painful experience for daily use, where the owner normally only uses a handful of items in the menu (but each user can have a different handful!).
We have set the first option of the menu as "QUICKSET",  which includes the most commonly used functions, such as the first one is  "AUTO" mode selection, and the second one is second parameter mode, R or D/Q

as you mentioned, Digital cameras have the same problem, most of the users prefer automode :palm:
so the default mode of tweezers is auto mode.

A user-defined menu sounds great, but a little bit complicated for such a small instrument, we may post the menu plan to make you know about those details, all the functions would be exposed by the menu list ;)
These tweezers will support firmware updating by USB,  if there are some guys have similar requirements as you said, we will consider the implementation of this function.

A printed "menu tree" would be a great help.   I had the same problem with an old Laserjet printer - until I found that - cleverly - it can print its menu tree out from the control
panel!  -  Sadly it used 8 pages of paper to do that, which would then have to be glued together to make any sense...   LOL!  :D
Yes, the menu tree is what we want to show ;)
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Offline Zlotnik

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Hi Shannon,


1) Touch DUT with tweezers.
2) Tweezers register transition from open input to DUT and begin measuring. Measurements are displayed and updated live.
3) Hold contact to DUT for a bit. Screen is updating all the while.
4) Tweezers beep after delay T
5) Tweezers stop live display of measurements and display hold-value. (Eg median between start of "stable" values and time of beep)
6) Remove tweezers from DUT. Tweezers measure open, but continue to display hold-value on screen.
7) Operator reads tweezers at their leisure
7) Start next measurement by going to step 1)
Sounds good, it's another solution, and the processing logic is simple and direct, There's just a little bit of uncertainty, if the measurement result at delay "T" is unfortunate not stable or not accurate, the user needs to test it again.
we will test this processing method, and comparing those different ways to select the better one, the Beep notice gives user confidence, which may make users feel better
The point is not so much the delay. It's perfectly fine if it's not a fixed it configurable delay, but the tweezers determine themselves when the result is stable. Also it's not so much about there being a beep to give the user confidence.

According to the video, your current hold mode implementation live-updates until the user releases the tweezers, and then displays the hold-value.

This means the user has to look at the screen to determine when the measured value is stable, and the tweezers can be released. At that point, the user doesn't really need the hold function anymore. They've anyway had to look away from the DUT, seen the value on the display, and can just as well remember the value themselves.

Instead, the tweezers should determine when the value is stable and give audible, not visible, feedback that the user can release the grip.
This is the killer feature aspect of value hold that so many manufacturers don't get: Confident eyes-away operation.

The rest of my outlined function is just icing. Configurable delay or auto-detection? Whatever works.
Not live-updating after the hold-beep? Just one beep instead of beeping again and again?
Just there to give one consistent simple behaviour:

beep=done
 
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Exactly.  Having to take your eyes off what you are probing is a huge minus with all existing tweezers.  Nobody has yet understood how important it is to be able to get a reading without looking while you are doing it!
 
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Online Shannon

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Exactly.  Having to take your eyes off what you are probing is a huge minus with all existing tweezers.  Nobody has yet understood how important it is to be able to get a reading without looking while you are doing it!
Thanks Zlotnik and SilverSolder
Advanced Hold function is coming ;)
And present video is on the way
Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night:
God said, Let Newton be! and all was light.
 
The following users thanked this post: toli, SilverSolder


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