Author Topic: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510  (Read 128416 times)

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Offline shodan@micron

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1100 on: June 19, 2020, 08:55:11 pm »
My front-rear switch a little-bit oxidized. Now i doing around 50 front-rear switch cycles, it take offset my zero around 350nV.

I repeat 50 switch cycle again,  now i see it stabilized. Oxidize is removed.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 01:48:12 am by shodan@micron »
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Offline shodan@micron

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1101 on: June 20, 2020, 01:01:39 am »
After remove oxidize from F-R switch and recalibrated all zero values into DMM6500, test has been repeated, now it looks good.
(100V and 1000V ranges into table not updated, error without significant changes in this ranges)

Without full factory cal. procedure ofcourse it is a "funny stuff", but now i start trust to my 6500... a little. :-DMM

Next step - current check, stay tuned! (if you are not interested, please tell me)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 05:14:31 am by shodan@micron »
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Offline shodan@micron

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1102 on: June 20, 2020, 07:44:39 pm »
6500 current check, it definitely "in spec"! :-+

Awaiting Z-Foil.... :popcorn:
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 08:05:49 pm by shodan@micron »
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Offline jancumps

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1103 on: June 23, 2020, 05:27:04 pm »
... We are working on documentation for the apps to release sometime later this year, the commands are still very fluid as we make some apps ourselves and figure out how we'd like the commands to work.  If you have some ideas for what you'd like to do with the interface could you send them along to me?  We're trying to put together a "wish list" of apps, I could also send you some of the documentation we have right now....
Is that documentation available? I checked the DMM650 download area and the latest TSB help files, but couldn't find an App tutorial/API.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1104 on: June 29, 2020, 03:28:31 pm »
After beating around the bush for way too long I bit the bullet and bought one of these puppies. My decision was almost exclusively based on the excellent review by Shahriar of The Signal Path. I cannot stress enough how instrumental his reviews are to get a good understanding of these kinds of tools. Keithley, please send him all your stuff.

The functionality of the meter is amazing. I've been working my way through the various features and there are so many possibilities. The previous generation of meters was excellent in its own right but this really is a world apart. From the perspective of functionality it's an incredibly useful tool. I was curious how well the touch screen would actually work but it's perfectly fine and doesn't get in the way.

Unfortunately, this meter is going back as it seems to suffer from a few quality issues.
-It hums. I bought this unit from an official dealer after being repaired and recalibrated and recertified by Keithley, as it was reported to suffer from the humming issue by a previous owner. Unfortunately it still produces a noticeable mains hum which can be heard across the bench, unlike various other meters and devices.
-The right side touch screen moves 0.5-1mm back and forth when touched. The left side seems attached as is to be expected.

- Other quirks I noticed are that the front terminal led indicator also seems to illuminate a small square section of the front panel through the plastic, sort of between the terminal selection switch and the socket above it. This is most visible with less ambient light.
- Finally the fan is isn't horrible loud, although it isn't exactly quiet either. But does it ever whine. It easily cuts through other ambient sounds. I don't think I've encountered a product with such a whiny fan in a long time.

This leaves me wondering whether Keithley pushed a bit too hard in their pursuit to bring the price down or the profit margin up. The actual device and its functionality are great, but there are a few details which let it down and which unfortunately go a long way in determining the liveability. I'm unsure whether it's an issue with quality control or with quality standards, but one of those is not what I'd expect it to be. What's your experience?
 

Offline E-Design

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1105 on: June 29, 2020, 04:12:03 pm »
After beating around the bush for way too long I bit the bullet and bought one of these puppies. My decision was almost exclusively based on the excellent review by Shahriar of The Signal Path. I cannot stress enough how instrumental his reviews are to get a good understanding of these kinds of tools. Keithley, please send him all your stuff.

The functionality of the meter is amazing. I've been working my way through the various features and there are so many possibilities. The previous generation of meters was excellent in its own right but this really is a world apart. From the perspective of functionality it's an incredibly useful tool. I was curious how well the touch screen would actually work but it's perfectly fine and doesn't get in the way.

Unfortunately, this meter is going back as it seems to suffer from a few quality issues.
-It hums. I bought this unit from an official dealer after being repaired and recalibrated and recertified by Keithley, as it was reported to suffer from the humming issue by a previous owner. Unfortunately it still produces a noticeable mains hum which can be heard across the bench, unlike various other meters and devices.
-The right side touch screen moves 0.5-1mm back and forth when touched. The left side seems attached as is to be expected.

- Other quirks I noticed are that the front terminal led indicator also seems to illuminate a small square section of the front panel through the plastic, sort of between the terminal selection switch and the socket above it. This is most visible with less ambient light.
- Finally the fan is isn't horrible loud, although it isn't exactly quiet either. But does it ever whine. It easily cuts through other ambient sounds. I don't think I've encountered a product with such a whiny fan in a long time.

This leaves me wondering whether Keithley pushed a bit too hard in their pursuit to bring the price down or the profit margin up. The actual device and its functionality are great, but there are a few details which let it down and which unfortunately go a long way in determining the liveability. I'm unsure whether it's an issue with quality control or with quality standards, but one of those is not what I'd expect it to be. What's your experience?

We do try and send as much as we can to The Signal path.

Whats your SN ? I will find out when it was built and if the issues you described should have been checked. There is still some old stock out there that might have those issues present.
 You can send it PM, I will investigate.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 04:13:36 pm by E-Design »
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Offline MikeP

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1106 on: June 30, 2020, 06:12:32 am »
 Dear friend E-design.

 I must join the previous speakers and repeat the remark about a very noisy fan. It really poisons life.  :horse:

 I have a question or request. There are two scripts for measuring power. One was created by Keithley staff, and the second is written by Mike Green. Unfortunately, both programs have flaws and turn work into torment. This includes the need to restart the device, the impossibility of an operative stop and restart of the measurement, difficult access to the buffer, the lack of access to control the filter and the NPLC parameter .......

 If it is possible to take the best of both programs and remove the defects? The script could become a full and essential function.

 Thanks.
 
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1107 on: June 30, 2020, 11:53:59 am »
About your power measurement, if the power supply voltage is a constant, it will work much easier just to use the linear conversion of the DMM. (it's possible to change the unit X but it must be done with a script)
Depends on how accurate you need it.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 11:57:47 am by KedasProbe »
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Offline JxR

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1108 on: July 01, 2020, 01:45:25 am »
I must join the previous speakers and repeat the remark about a very noisy fan. It really poisons life.  :horse:

I always have to wonder if either: I have serious hearing loss, the fan is defective, or the owner has super hearing, etc.  I have to turn mine off and on more than once just to convince myself there is even a fan in the thing it is so quiet.  Hopefully there is just something wrong with the fan, and it can be swapped out.
 

Offline JxR

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1109 on: July 01, 2020, 02:21:09 am »
After beating around the bush for way too long I bit the bullet and bought one of these puppies. My decision was almost exclusively based on the excellent review by Shahriar of The Signal Path. I cannot stress enough how instrumental his reviews are to get a good understanding of these kinds of tools. Keithley, please send him all your stuff.

The functionality of the meter is amazing. I've been working my way through the various features and there are so many possibilities. The previous generation of meters was excellent in its own right but this really is a world apart. From the perspective of functionality it's an incredibly useful tool. I was curious how well the touch screen would actually work but it's perfectly fine and doesn't get in the way.

Unfortunately, this meter is going back as it seems to suffer from a few quality issues.
-It hums. I bought this unit from an official dealer after being repaired and recalibrated and recertified by Keithley, as it was reported to suffer from the humming issue by a previous owner. Unfortunately it still produces a noticeable mains hum which can be heard across the bench, unlike various other meters and devices.
-The right side touch screen moves 0.5-1mm back and forth when touched. The left side seems attached as is to be expected.

- Other quirks I noticed are that the front terminal led indicator also seems to illuminate a small square section of the front panel through the plastic, sort of between the terminal selection switch and the socket above it. This is most visible with less ambient light.
- Finally the fan is isn't horrible loud, although it isn't exactly quiet either. But does it ever whine. It easily cuts through other ambient sounds. I don't think I've encountered a product with such a whiny fan in a long time.

This leaves me wondering whether Keithley pushed a bit too hard in their pursuit to bring the price down or the profit margin up. The actual device and its functionality are great, but there are a few details which let it down and which unfortunately go a long way in determining the liveability. I'm unsure whether it's an issue with quality control or with quality standards, but one of those is not what I'd expect it to be. What's your experience?

Congrats on the new meter, although that is unfortunate it has so many issues that shouldn't be there.  Hopefully you will be able to get the meter returned/replaced with little fuss.  Overall I've been fairly happy with my DMM6500.  Besides the dual V/I measurement fiasco, The only other problem I feel worth mentioning is the blue screens.  Although I honestly haven't had one of those in a long time. 

I came really close to selling the DMM6500 not too long ago, but decided to keep it in the end.  The DMM7510 is going up for sale soon though.  That one was only purchased for a specific project, and I've just been stalling/trying to convince myself that I need a 7.5 digit meter at home (I don't).
 

Offline E-Design

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1110 on: July 02, 2020, 02:09:01 am »
After beating around the bush for way too long I bit the bullet and bought one of these puppies. My decision was almost exclusively based on the excellent review by Shahriar of The Signal Path. I cannot stress enough how instrumental his reviews are to get a good understanding of these kinds of tools. Keithley, please send him all your stuff.

The functionality of the meter is amazing. I've been working my way through the various features and there are so many possibilities. The previous generation of meters was excellent in its own right but this really is a world apart. From the perspective of functionality it's an incredibly useful tool. I was curious how well the touch screen would actually work but it's perfectly fine and doesn't get in the way.

Unfortunately, this meter is going back as it seems to suffer from a few quality issues.
-It hums. I bought this unit from an official dealer after being repaired and recalibrated and recertified by Keithley, as it was reported to suffer from the humming issue by a previous owner. Unfortunately it still produces a noticeable mains hum which can be heard across the bench, unlike various other meters and devices.
-The right side touch screen moves 0.5-1mm back and forth when touched. The left side seems attached as is to be expected.

- Other quirks I noticed are that the front terminal led indicator also seems to illuminate a small square section of the front panel through the plastic, sort of between the terminal selection switch and the socket above it. This is most visible with less ambient light.
- Finally the fan is isn't horrible loud, although it isn't exactly quiet either. But does it ever whine. It easily cuts through other ambient sounds. I don't think I've encountered a product with such a whiny fan in a long time.

This leaves me wondering whether Keithley pushed a bit too hard in their pursuit to bring the price down or the profit margin up. The actual device and its functionality are great, but there are a few details which let it down and which unfortunately go a long way in determining the liveability. I'm unsure whether it's an issue with quality control or with quality standards, but one of those is not what I'd expect it to be. What's your experience?

Congrats on the new meter, although that is unfortunate it has so many issues that shouldn't be there.  Hopefully you will be able to get the meter returned/replaced with little fuss.  Overall I've been fairly happy with my DMM6500.  Besides the dual V/I measurement fiasco, The only other problem I feel worth mentioning is the blue screens.  Although I honestly haven't had one of those in a long time. 

I came really close to selling the DMM6500 not too long ago, but decided to keep it in the end.  The DMM7510 is going up for sale soon though.  That one was only purchased for a specific project, and I've just been stalling/trying to convince myself that I need a 7.5 digit meter at home (I don't).

All, it was never designed to support a power measurement. I know there are scripts, but the only clean way to do this is to have 2 simultaneous A/D conversions (one for I and one for V).
The hardware wasn't architect-ed to do this.

Every implementation tends to be a hack that have issues. We know its an important feature, but it never made the list of essential requirements.

Yes, I understand the frustrations with blue screens.. please try to find steps to reproduce and take a photo of the screen --then report it, I can have firmware engineers look at it - its the only way to solve these bugs.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 02:26:52 am by E-Design »
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Offline E-Design

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1111 on: July 02, 2020, 02:12:53 am »
Dear friend E-design.

 I must join the previous speakers and repeat the remark about a very noisy fan. It really poisons life.  :horse:

 I have a question or request. There are two scripts for measuring power. One was created by Keithley staff, and the second is written by Mike Green. Unfortunately, both programs have flaws and turn work into torment. This includes the need to restart the device, the impossibility of an operative stop and restart of the measurement, difficult access to the buffer, the lack of access to control the filter and the NPLC parameter .......

 If it is possible to take the best of both programs and remove the defects? The script could become a full and essential function.

 Thanks.

Sorry to hear about your fan noise.. everybody's experience and sensitivity to it is different. It is required to meet the 6.5 digit specs that presumably you needed in the instrument.

Its likely possible to improve your script, but I wouldn't be a suitable person to try it for you.


« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 02:21:42 am by E-Design »
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Offline JxR

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1112 on: July 02, 2020, 03:25:37 am »
All, it was never designed to support a power measurement. I know there are scripts, but the only clean way to do this is to have 2 simultaneous A/D conversions (one for I and one for V).
The hardware wasn't architect-ed to do this.

Every implementation tends to be a hack that have issues. We know its an important feature, but it never made the list of essential requirements.

That is fine, and certainly understandable.  I really never took issue with it not working.  I kind of take issue with the limitation not being documented, and both the user and reference manual both have pictures showing dual V/I measurement setups. I feel that it is still implied that it works (unless you stumble upon this thread).

So, I would just prefer to see it documented, and/or remove the ranges that cause issues if configured for dual V/I measurement.  Either way, I'm more than over this issue and I still highly recommend the meter.

Edit: This now appears to be documented.  DCV/DCI in a primary/secondary measurement pairing is not guaranteed to provide in spec measurements. 


Yes, I understand the frustrations with blue screens.. please try to find steps to reproduce and take a photo of the screen --then report it, I can have firmware engineers look at it - its the only way to solve these bugs.

If it ever happens again I will certainly try and take a screenshot.  It really has been a while though since I've had one.  Moving the graph around, pinch/zoom, etc was the area that it always seemed the most likely to occur in my experience.

Thank you for the candid responses, E-Design they are appreciated!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 09:39:50 pm by JxR »
 

Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1113 on: July 02, 2020, 01:15:10 pm »
That is fine, and certainly understandable.  I really never took issue with it not working.  I kind of take issue with the limitation not being documented, and both the user and reference manual both have pictures showing dual V/I measurement setups. I feel that it is still implied that it works (unless you stumble upon this thread).
or this one: https://forum.tek.com/viewtopic.php?f=617&t=141896 (you can also get there via youtube)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 01:20:12 pm by KedasProbe »
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Offline JxR

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1114 on: July 02, 2020, 09:05:12 pm »
That is fine, and certainly understandable.  I really never took issue with it not working.  I kind of take issue with the limitation not being documented, and both the user and reference manual both have pictures showing dual V/I measurement setups. I feel that it is still implied that it works (unless you stumble upon this thread).
or this one: https://forum.tek.com/viewtopic.php?f=617&t=141896 (you can also get there via youtube)

Wow, forgot about that post and they even responded!  Of course the problem still exists even with their recommended pairing of Primary:DCV, Secondary: DCI.  So the warning about specifications not being met doesn't cover that the primary measurement is the one that is actually wrong in this pairing when on the 100/1000V ranges.

Double checked the linked post again: so DCV/DCI is not considered a valid pairing anymore.  Well, it is documented now which is good enough for me.  I don't want to beat this dead horse anymore.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 09:15:46 pm by JxR »
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1115 on: July 02, 2020, 09:56:23 pm »
With the shared terminal, there is no way that simultaneous I and V can be really accurate. There may be improvements in the HW, but this would not solve the limitation. It may still be acceptable, especially if the voltage range is suitable.
 

Offline MikeP

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1116 on: July 03, 2020, 07:52:59 pm »
 The power measurement script uses an external shunt. The accuracy of this measurement is quite high. Unfortunately, the biggest inconvenience is management and settings. Actually the main function performs very well.

  I will try to contact the authors of these small programs.

  In general, it is surprising to me why this script is not interesting to anyone.
 

Offline shodan@micron

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1117 on: July 12, 2020, 06:22:56 am »
Fresh meat! >:D

https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v172-and-release-notes

Hmmmm.... i think my battery will not survive until the next release :horse:
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1118 on: July 12, 2020, 03:41:23 pm »
I really hope they didn't need 8 months since 1.7.0 just to make the apps exit properly.(assuming it exits properly now)
Why label it noncritical if you are going to release a new firmware for it. (I must be missing something here)

edit: installed it without problem to the first one, I will update the other one tomorrow.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 04:18:40 pm by KedasProbe »
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Offline jancumps

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1119 on: July 12, 2020, 05:33:38 pm »
No need to only release firmware for crirical issues. Frequent release is a good thing. You're not obliged to update your instrument.
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1120 on: July 12, 2020, 06:55:28 pm »
The problem is not so much that the update did (kind of) correct a minor bug. The problem is that there are other known bugs that are more critical (e.g. fast draining battery) that seem to be still here.

If there is nothing more fixed, this is more like a bad sign of currently not much support going on. This may be due to the special times we have - though fixing software is one of those things that might by done from the home office too. There could be other reasons (e.g. new HW coming, a mayor SW update in the making) for delays.
 

Online Sighound36

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1121 on: July 12, 2020, 07:34:31 pm »
Noisy unit here as well both electrically (low level hum when in stand by) and fan wise.
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Offline MathWizard

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1122 on: July 12, 2020, 09:07:41 pm »
How do u guys find the screen on 6500 ? Is it responsive or laggy? What do u clean it with ? I assume its some matte finish.

Also, how long are these supposed to last, before the screen goes crazy ? I few real buttons would be nice.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1123 on: July 12, 2020, 09:50:03 pm »
How do u guys find the screen on 6500 ? Is it responsive or laggy? What do u clean it with ? I assume its some matte finish.

Also, how long are these supposed to last, before the screen goes crazy ? I few real buttons would be nice.
It's surprisingly good. I was worried about it but it just works. It's not up to the 120 Hz goodness of modern smartphones but I never feel it's laggy.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1124 on: July 12, 2020, 09:53:07 pm »
The problem is not so much that the update did (kind of) correct a minor bug. The problem is that there are other known bugs that are more critical (e.g. fast draining battery) that seem to be still here.

If there is nothing more fixed, this is more like a bad sign of currently not much support going on. This may be due to the special times we have - though fixing software is one of those things that might by done from the home office too. There could be other reasons (e.g. new HW coming, a mayor SW update in the making) for delays.
The time to fix the battery problem is running out for many people so I hope that has some priority.
 


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