Author Topic: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510  (Read 60248 times)

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Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #175 on: September 06, 2018, 08:10:27 am »
MikeP:
Probably you set the digitize Count to 1 and went into continuous trigger mode?  When you do that, triggering is handled by the display processor, so when that processor gets busy it will stop triggering and catch up with whatever else it's being told to do (like update the graph image).  That's where those gaps in data are coming from.  A couple ways around this come to mind:
  • Set a higher count to capture all the data you need.  Triggering within a Count set is handled by a separate processor that won't get caught up in display stuff, you also won't see the lines connecting separate groups of data that may be a little confusing.  The graph's smart scaling in x will by default show you the latest group of readings.
  • Use a trigger model.  Triggering from a trigger model is also handled by a separate processor and a very simple model can allow continuous data capture.  I'm attaching a script (change the .txt to .tsp to use it) where the last lines set up a trigger model that starts a digitize voltage measurement (that continues infinitely) and then stops the measurement when the TRIGGER key is pressed.  The display might lag behind slightly depending on your other settings, but there won't be any gaps in the data.  If you digitize at a really high rate then you may see a pop-up like "Processing reading backlog...".  That message means the display processor needs to catch up with the data buffer and it will stop other activities until it catches up, usually no more than a second or two.

analogRF:
You seem to have figured out your test current question yourself, but I don't think anyone answered you on the hold functionality.  The DMM6500 doesn't have an exact equal to the 34461's probe hold feature, but it's easy enough to reproduce through scripting or a trigger model.  Tell you what, if you get a DMM6500, I'll write something for you myself ;D
EDIT: Also in regards to AC measurement accuracy, the DMM6500 has a brand new AC measurement architecture from the model 2000 that performs much better, the specs are fairly conservative there too.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 08:23:28 am by Brad O »
 
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Offline analogRF

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #176 on: September 06, 2018, 08:19:18 am »

analogRF:
You seem to have figured out your test current question yourself, but I don't think anyone answered you on the hold functionality.  The DMM6500 doesn't have an exact equal to the 34461's probe hold feature, but it's easy enough to reproduce through scripting or a trigger model.  Tell you what, if you get a DMM6500, I'll write something for you myself ;D

Thanks! Finally that's the answer I was looking for  :) I have even asked the Tek support about the same thing and waiting for them to reply.
Reading a bit through the manual I thought that it might be possible with all those trigger models although I cannot figure out how.
Have no idea how the scripting works...

Have you tried to write something to emulate this? I am stunned they have not implemented this simple and very useful feature
in this sophisticated device. Even 2015 had this and all Keysight meters or even Rigol have it. There you can even adjust the threshold
for triggering to read a new value when you probe again. I have used it a lot and I am very used to it and I really want my new meter to have this.
 
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Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #177 on: September 06, 2018, 08:31:00 am »
I haven't done anything exactly like the probe hold, I typically use the graph when I'd need similar functionality.  I think someone around here was working on a script that did it though...
 

Offline MikeP

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #178 on: September 07, 2018, 06:08:57 am »

... There you can even adjust the threshold for triggering to read a new value when you probe again...


 :-+
 

Offline olkipukki

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #179 on: September 07, 2018, 08:11:52 am »
  • The transformer hum a lot of people have mentioned is a manufacturing defect that affected some DMMs on the first run, it's been fixed in the later builds.  You can contact your service center about getting it fixed, they should all be aware of the issue.  I'm not sure the exact percentage of affected units, but that's why some people have said they didn't notice it.  In general, please always reach to Tek service if you notice something that seems unreasonable about operation, mistakes do happen...


If there any Tek reference can be used for this issue?

I got DAQ6510 recently and it's much worse :( than DMM6500, planning to return both units... to be fixed and or replaced.

Thanks
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 08:17:36 am by olkipukki »
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #180 on: September 07, 2018, 06:55:34 pm »
@ Brad O
What is the current state of shipped DMM6500?
I am interested in buying one but only if all Hardware problems have been solved, like the transformer humm.
When can we expect a new firmware that will solve the software issues?
Thanks for an honest answer.



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Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #181 on: September 08, 2018, 04:02:06 am »
I'm sorry to hear that olkipukki... All the team here believes the transformer hum to be entirely solved, so there shouldn't be any new units going out with it.  We personally checked a few dozen units here a couple weeks ago and didn't find any issues (we didn't get them to check for issues, but did while we had them), so you should contact Tek support if you're seeing an abnormally loud hum.  As for a reference number, I think it was handled in manufacturing since it wasn't a design defect and they seem to use their own issue tracking system.  I'll keep looking but Tek support should know of the issue if you report it with them.  Did you get your DAQ6510 from a distributor?  They could have sent an older serial number from before the manufacturing fix was implemented.  Tek support will know at which serial number the problem was diagnosed and fixed.  Looking through our tracking system, I don't think there have been any design related hardware problems since release, and the transformer hum, while annoying, didn't affect measurements. 

HighVoltage: A new firmware release is planned for later this year.  It's a bit of a longer schedule than a typical new product firmware release as we have some special things planned for it.
 

Offline analogRF

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #182 on: September 08, 2018, 04:06:33 am »
HighVoltage: A new firmware release is planned for later this year.  It's a bit of a longer schedule than a typical new product firmware release as we have some special things planned for it.

could that include the reading hold feature  ;)
 

Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #183 on: September 08, 2018, 07:15:24 am »
I'm not gonna lie, adding a reading hold to the main firmware is not terribly high on the priority list right now.  But maybe I can come up with something for you in a couple weeks... :-X
 

Offline julius79

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #184 on: September 08, 2018, 07:45:20 am »
Im on market for 6 1/2 dig bench dmm. Where in UK,Europe i may get one for a clearance or a very good offer ,sale please ?
 

Offline helgel

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #185 on: September 10, 2018, 04:50:28 pm »
Tektronix has a comparison between Keithley DMM6500 and Keysight 34461A here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT9Zpcsc57k. Maybe not a unbiased comparison, but might be useful for some.
 

Online HKJ

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #186 on: September 27, 2018, 09:47:25 pm »
I just got the DMM6500 with software V1.0.02a
The 10uA DC range do not have a 20% overload margin, it goes into overload at 10uA, not at 12uA
 

Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #187 on: September 28, 2018, 02:31:05 am »
The 10uA DC range do not have a 20% overload margin, it goes into overload at 10uA, not at 12uA

I just checked my DMM with 1.0.02a and was able to measure up to the 20% overrange without issue. Is it possible you're measuring a noisy signal?  If you have overranging spikes on your signal, the DMM will clip those readings and average the signal lower than it actually is.  You could check this by manually ranging up to see if you get what you expect or using the Digitize current function to see if there are any spikes present. 
 

Online HKJ

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #188 on: September 28, 2018, 02:44:31 am »
The 10uA DC range do not have a 20% overload margin, it goes into overload at 10uA, not at 12uA

I just checked my DMM with 1.0.02a and was able to measure up to the 20% overrange without issue. Is it possible you're measuring a noisy signal?  If you have overranging spikes on your signal, the DMM will clip those readings and average the signal lower than it actually is.  You could check this by manually ranging up to see if you get what you expect or using the Digitize current function to see if there are any spikes present.

Very strange, I am trying it again now and it works perfectly.
I am using my 2460 as source and it is computer controlled with a special DMM test program I have made for checking DMM's. This makes it very unlikely I did a mistake before, but I did not try turning off-on the DMM6500 when it had trouble.

I did try locking it in 10uA range, where it flickered in and out of overload, I also tried with filter, it did not help either.

 

Online HKJ

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #189 on: September 28, 2018, 11:58:20 pm »
I have been playing some more with the meter and got a couple of blue-screen while doing screen dumps:



I also wonder what the purpose of the ENTER key is, I have not found any use for it. On models with a encoder wheel it has purpose.

When doing math it would be nice if the secondary value could be the same value without any math applied.

 

Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #190 on: September 29, 2018, 03:20:34 am »
I have been playing some more with the meter and got a couple of blue-screen while doing screen dumps:
As in you saw blue screens while taking a screenshot? Do you have any other info on how you got them?

I also wonder what the purpose of the ENTER key is, I have not found any use for it.
The ENTER key does behave like a touch most of the time, it selects whatever's highlighted on the screen and also enters values for pop-up dialogs. The DMM6500's frame comes from our SMUs which do have an encoder wheel, so it's also a bit of a hold-over from those instruments as well.  I suppose I mainly use it for screenshots. 

When doing math it would be nice if the secondary value could be the same value without any math applied.
So you'd like a second buffer that records (for example) mV while the main buffer records %?  That seems reasonable, I'm not sure if there's a reason that wasn't done besides no one thought to do it.  I filed it as a requested feature, AR61921.
 
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Online HKJ

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #191 on: September 29, 2018, 03:27:23 am »
I have been playing some more with the meter and got a couple of blue-screen while doing screen dumps:
As in you saw blue screens while taking a screenshot? Do you have any other info on how you got them?

Not much more info, I was on the mains screens, it happened on the statistic (twice) and on the settings screen.

When doing math it would be nice if the secondary value could be the same value without any math applied.
So you'd like a second buffer that records (for example) mV while the main buffer records %?  That seems reasonable, I'm not sure if there's a reason that wasn't done besides no one thought to do it.  I filed it as a requested feature, AR61921.

Thanks.
 

Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #192 on: September 29, 2018, 03:39:45 am »
I have been playing some more with the meter and got a couple of blue-screen while doing screen dumps:
As in you saw blue screens while taking a screenshot? Do you have any other info on how you got them?
Not much more info, I was on the mains screens, it happened on the statistic (twice) and on the settings screen.
Is there anything else on that flash drive?  One of our co-ops remembered seeing a bug during development where the DMM would sometimes crash after having the flash drive inserted for some time.  He believed it was related to what files were on the drive but doesn't know what file would've caused it since he erased the drive.  We haven't seen anything like that since then, and there's not an obvious reason why any process that reads the flash drive would cause a crash, but it's something to go on.  If there are other files on it, could you PM me a list of the file names and extensions (NOT the contents)?
 

Offline maukka

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #193 on: September 29, 2018, 03:44:24 am »
I've seen similar things happen on some AV equipment with USB drives with long folder names. several nested folders or special characters in files or folders.
 

Online HKJ

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #194 on: September 29, 2018, 03:46:24 am »
If there are other files on it, could you PM me a list of the file names and extensions (NOT the contents)?

Lot of files, I have send a PM.
 
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #195 on: September 30, 2018, 10:05:50 pm »

I also wonder what the purpose of the ENTER key is, I have not found any use for it. On models with a encoder wheel it has purpose.

I would suspect that HOME and ENTER pressed simultaneously would save a screen shot to the USB thumb drive like on the DMM7510?
But besides this function, I have not used the ENTER knob on the DMM7510.
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Online HKJ

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #196 on: September 30, 2018, 10:11:51 pm »
I would suspect that HOME and ENTER pressed simultaneously would save a screen shot to the USB thumb drive like on the DMM7510?
But besides this function, I have not used the ENTER knob on the DMM7510.

On 7510 and other Keithley equipment with encoder wheel you can use the wheel and enter instead of the touchscreen, but 6500 do not have an encoder wheel.
 

Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #197 on: October 13, 2018, 04:32:45 am »
Hey @analogRF I don’t know if you’ve bought a 6500 yet, but I put together that Probe hold script for you and anyone else (@MikeP).  Also see the end for news on firmware.

It uses the App interface of the DMM so it behaves a little differently from a normal script.  I put together some info below.

INSTRUCTIONS:
1.   Download the attached file and change the .txt ending to .tspa
2.   Make sure your DMM’s command set is set to TSP in MENU > Settings
3.   Put the script on a USB drive and insert into the DMM
4.   Press the APPS key and go to the USB tab
5.   You can either run the script here, or save it to local memory first (it will be added to local memory automatically)
6.   Click Run

DESCRIPTION:
The app adds a swipe screen to the home screen that detects stable readings and displays them on screen.  The big reading is still what the DMM is currently measuring.  There is a delete button to remove the last reading and a settings button, described below.  All readings ever displayed are stored in a separate buffer, called App_buffer, that can be exported just like any other buffer.  defbuffer1 holds all the readings the DMM takes, like normal, so you can go back and review the exact measurements taken (though defbuffer1 clears when you change functions).  Most functions are supported, the ones NOT supported are digitizing, temperature, continuity, or diode.  You can swipe off the probe hold, but no measurements will take place while you’re away from it.

SETTINGS:
  • Beeper: turns the beeper on and off
  • Probe Hold Tolerance: The app requires that multiple readings (5 to be precise) must be within this percent change to be considered stable
  • Low Threshold: Readings below this value are ignored, you may need to change this value depending on your needs or the measure function (like capacitance where you're probably measuring uF.  This is really only a setting because I haven’t figured out a good way to discount readings near 0
  • Repeat Tolerance: Immediately repeated readings are ignored.  Readings are considered repeated if the percent change between the new reading and the last reading is less than this setting.
POWER USERS:
I wrote the app using the TSP language, which is pretty easy to follow as far as programming languages go.  There are some Global Settings towards the bottom of the script that act as defaults (except for $mcount, which is not adjustable "in app", and sets the measure count).  You’ll see some TODO statements of features I want to add in the future, or places where I know things need to be improved. 

BUGS:
I made this in my spare time so I’m 100% sure it has bugs in it, there’s a few I’m even aware of but haven’t had time to fix yet.  If you find one though, or have an idea for how you’d like the app to work differently, you can comment over at this thread on the Tek forum (It’s not like I won’t read it if you post here though…)  For one, it doesn’t quit gracefully, if you want to close this app I recommend restarting your DMM, there are lots of ways closing it will lead to blue screens or lock-ups.  Most of those issues require a firmware change to fix, and there are things I’d like this app to do which also require a firmware change.  That brings me to…

NEW FIRMWARE:
I’ve been told by the project manager that a new firmware will now not be coming until early next year.  It’s involved a lot of backend work and it’s simply taken longer than thought to get it ready.  I’ll let you all know a firm release date as soon as I get one. 

*EDIT: I changed the attached file since the first one I had accidentally had the wrong firmware listed as a requirement.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 01:28:59 pm by Brad O »
 
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Offline analogRF

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #198 on: October 13, 2018, 05:26:40 am »
Hi @Brad O
Thank you so much for following this up.
No, I havent been able to buy it (yet?) as it is still out of my price range
I tried to find a used 8846A or DMM4050 instead but no luck so far.
I even contacted Tek for a refurbished (or even defective !) DMM6500 but no answer.

But I am sure if I ever manage to buy this baby, this program definitely helps
 
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Offline MikeP

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #199 on: October 16, 2018, 06:06:27 am »
 I briefly tried PROBE HOLD script. I think this script not final product and it has some defects. But it very usable – now multimeter can collect and hold several measurements. You even shouldn’t see the screen: beep-charger, beep-aux, beep-pump, beep-inverter. Very good. Brad many thanks!
 
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