Author Topic: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510  (Read 70758 times)

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Offline sstepane

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2018, 08:31:32 pm »
If it will provide (as it seems) PC software (and for digitizer function) - it will be another brick on 34465a DMMs grave. As opposing to now not free anymore BenchVue, which is also known for it's bulky and buggy style.
However there always will be an amount of people, which would prefer physical buttons for functions.
 

Offline insine

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2018, 12:07:08 am »
Does it have a fan?
It seems there is a soft power button, how does it work? Does it boot fast?
 

Offline Krampmeier

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2018, 05:31:28 am »
Yes, it has a fan. It is rather quite, but noticable (and a bit annoying) in a quiet office. I did not notice a dust filter in the prototype.

The soft power button just toggels the power when pressed. It must be pressed for a moment before something happens. When the instrument is power cycled externally, it goes back into the power state it had when the supply was interrupted.

The boot time of the unit here is about 16 seconds.
 

Offline maxwell3e10

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2018, 05:40:59 am »
It will be interesting to see if they fix the autozero problem that causes excessive noise on 10-100 sec time scale, which was present in both DMM7510 and 2002 meters. And hopefully the software will be less prone to crashes.

 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2018, 08:00:51 am »
I have been using an engineering sample of the 6500 for a couple of weeks now, and I really do like it. I also noticed that the screen "sponges away" a little bit, but other than that, the look&feel is very nice. The screen resolution is a little bit higher than it is on the 7510, as the screen is a bit higher. It is also much clearer, and the touch interface works very well.
After playing with this new meter for a couple of hours, going back to a 2000 series device feels weird. We are all used to the VFDs, but the LCD really does have a lot of advantages. The data logging alone, with the intuitive scrolling and zooming and a huge memory, would be enough to justify the upgrade in many cases. Another neat feature is that you can upload scripts to the meter which also change the UI and add special functionality. That seems to be very powerful. It also has a very good virtual frontpanel via LAN, which is quite useful for remote debugging.

I noticed that the 6500 also shows very low noise, and the (preliminary) specs look very good (better than all the Keysight 6.5 digit meters). As far as I understand it, It does not need ACAL to get full accuracy, and does not have it.

I don't think I should share the photos of the inside or the pricing information for Europe yet, but in my opinion, it will be a no-brainer when you have to decide between the 6.5 digit universal multimeters currently on the market.

There are still some minor firmware issues which Keithley is working on at the moment. The design team has been very responsive to feedback and suggestions during the last weeks, so I suppose they'll iron those problems out before the meter hits the market in Europe. The only thing that I still worry about is that the time required for measurement function changes is much longer than it was for the 2000 and 2010. No big deal for bench use though.

Nice first impression, thank you!
The 7510 does have an ACAL but it is really not needed.
Every time I have used it, it may changed the last digit by one digit only and was spot on with my 3458A
So, I would expect that Keithley has used the same technology in the 6500
Both my 34470A on the other hand, have developed an ACAL offset over time, that seems not to be fixable.

I am really looking forward of getting one of these 6500 Keithley, once all the small issues have been solved.

There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 

Offline klaus11

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2018, 08:07:59 am »
I noticed that the 6500 also shows very low noise, and the (preliminary) specs look very good (better than all the Keysight 6.5 digit meters). As far as I understand it, It does not need ACAL to get full accuracy, and does not have it.


"better than all the Keysight 6.5 digit meters" optimism in the morning. "not need ACAL" This is very good.
 Keysight has many reasons to be worried, also for the price: 980 EUR + taxes.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 08:09:41 am by klaus11 »
HP3458A, HP3245a, Keithley 2000, Fluke 87V, Rigol DP832, TEK TDS5052B, HP33120A
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2018, 04:04:26 pm »
The DMM7510 seems to uses some temperature measurement and numerical corrections (this can be seen during warm up). This can to a certain degree reduce the TC, if done for the different ranges. So they may not need ACAL to get the overall low TC. However this can not compensate for long time resistor drift. Having an automatic cal function could reduce the number of long time stable dividers / resistors and maybe reduce long time drift (e.g. beyond the usual cal cycle) if just a few, higher grade resistors are used.

Even if there is no explicit ACAL cycle, there could be some hidden, e.g. when changing rages.  So the longer time it takes to change the function might be just a hidden partial ACAL function for the new selected function.

If done well, the ACAL way could give additional confidence, as drift of dividers could be noticed and it could work as a good and stringent internal self test. With sufficiently low noise of the ADC and amplifier ACAL can be relatively fast, especially if only 6 digit accuracy is aimed for. Usually the noise level is not that much lower in the high end meters, so they might need considerably longer to get the extra accuracy.
For a modern meter of this grade I would expect it to have some internal cal check and maybe adjustment. For a more normal use they might not need to make ACAL transparent to the user - for metrology use this would be requited.
 
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Offline MikeP

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2018, 05:10:22 pm »
 
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Offline drummerdimitri

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2018, 11:26:12 pm »
I am very interested in this unit but I am not sure if this will do over a 7510.

The reason why I ask is because I want to get that extra digit at higher voltages to measure the natural discharge rate of supercapacitors and batteries.

Is this a 2000000 count meter? Will I need a 7510 or will this suffice for my requirements?
 

Offline kj7e

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2018, 11:38:59 pm »
Is this a 2000000 count meter? Will I need a 7510 or will this suffice for my requirements?

No, this would be a 1,200,000 count meter.
 

Offline Krampmeier

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2018, 05:19:03 pm »
I am very interested in this unit but I am not sure if this will do over a 7510.

The reason why I ask is because I want to get that extra digit at higher voltages to measure the natural discharge rate of supercapacitors and batteries.

Is this a 2000000 count meter? Will I need a 7510 or will this suffice for my requirements?

Kj7e is right about the counts.

You could just connect a stable voltage source in series to your battery / capacitor, with opposite polarity, so that you can use a lower range on your DMM. Maybe one of the LTZ1000 boards described in the metrology forum, or just an off-the-shelf calibrator...

If the 10 GOhm input resistance (up to 10 V) or the 10 MOhm input resistance (above 10 V) are a problem in your application, or the bias current bothers you, you may want to have a look at the Keithley Electrometers.

 

Offline Big Ben

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2018, 09:43:26 am »
Delivery will be Mid April at the latest
 

Offline sibeen

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2018, 11:39:15 am »


"The fucker has a touch screen"

ROFL. Well done Mike :)
 

Offline Dr.Trinity

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2018, 07:57:23 pm »
This new Keithley DMM looks very promising
“Physics isn't the most important thing. Love is.”
 

Offline MikeP

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2018, 11:01:02 am »
 New documents.

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2607096.pdf?_ga=2.109722629.1255162927.1522665742-1348294533.1519212668
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2607097.pdf?_ga=2.109722629.1255162927.1522665742-1348294533.1519212668

 I think that the "soft" screen has its advantages - it's hard to destroy.

 The device is very attractive. Can someone give an alternative?
 
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Offline maxwell3e10

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2018, 04:47:25 pm »
It has zero RMS noise according to the datasheet! Attractive indeed!

Measurement Rate    DCV RMS Noise Uncertainty
in NPLCs                  (in % of range + fixed base)
5                                                    0
1                                                    0
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2018, 06:41:41 pm »
The 0 for the noise number just means the noise is lower than the 6.5 Digit resolution. It could even be just so low that it does not increase the uncertainty (10-30 ppm range) by much.  Getting noise well below 1 ppm at 1 PLC is nice but not yet that special. I would expect a noise level not much higher than with the DMM7510, about on par with the competing Keysight 3446x meters.

Chances are high to still see the extra noise bump in the 0.1-0.01 Hz range. Would be a nice surprise if Keithley finally fixed this problem that might date back to the 196 or so.

A nice feature might be specs for a 2 year cal cycle. This kind of indicates no special new parts are used, but more like well tested technology.
 

Offline maxwell3e10

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2018, 07:30:07 pm »
I was being sarcastic, of course. They should have said "additional rms noise"
 

Offline pmcouto

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2018, 11:49:50 am »
DMM6500 is now available from Farnell (EU) and I just bought one!

Should receive it tomorrow.   ;D
 

Offline Smokey

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2018, 06:15:26 pm »
url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql78V1fFquM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql78V1fFquM[/url]

"The fucker has a touch screen"

ROFL. Well done Mike :)
HA!  I was just about to make the exact same post...


So is this the long awaited update to the 2000 series... FINALLY!!!!  I'm not sure what the hell they were waiting for here.  If this was out a couple years ago when I needed some new bench meters for a test setup I would have probably specced one in.
1,197.74 US Dollars is almost exactly what they were still charging for a new 2000.

The fast sampling and storage is pretty attractive.  The frequency of stuff I'm typically looking at is in the kHz anyway so it could almost be a substitute for a scope in most cases.  I'm a little confused by the spec through.  The data sheet 1st page lists "1MS/sec digitizer" but later on in the Typical Read Rates, DC Functions section is says it can only do a max of 20600 readings per second at the lowest PLC. 

Drop in migration guide from 2000 to DMM6500 = http://download.tek.com/manual/077146600_DMM6500.pdf
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 08:24:03 pm by Smokey »
 

Offline Eric_S

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2018, 05:06:04 am »
I'm a little confused by the spec through.  The data sheet 1st page lists "1MS/sec digitizer" but later on in the Typical Read Rates, DC Functions section is says it can only do a max of 20600 readings per second at the lowest PLC.

It's got two measurement paths. The 1MS/s is for the 16bit (probably delta-sigma) ADC, the 20,6kS/s is for the high resolution path (I forget what the technique is called).
 
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Offline kj7e

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2018, 02:49:01 pm »
DMM6500 is now available from Farnell (EU) and I just bought one!

Should receive it tomorrow.   ;D

Be sure to post some photos and give your thoughts.
 

Offline drummerdimitri

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2018, 08:42:00 pm »
I am really curious as to whether or not it can do power and energy measurements using four wires. If it can I'm sold!
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2018, 10:06:00 pm »
I am really curious as to whether or not it can do power and energy measurements using four wires. If it can I'm sold!

I don't see it explicitly stated anywhere that there is a "power" mode, but you can measure voltage and current at the same time for sure. Check reference manual page 184.
Calculations may have to be done with scripts written yourself. It would also be 3 wire not 4 wire, as the ground is shared.

From the manual, it sounds like if you are doing simultaneous current/voltage at 1Ms/s it would be 4.5 digit:
Quote
The DMM6500 digitize functions make fast, predictably spaced measurements. The speed, sensitivity, and bandwidth of the digitize functions allows you to make accurate voltage and current
readings of fast signals, such as those associated with sensors, audio, medical devices, power line issues, and industrial processes. The digitize functions can provide 1,000,000 readings per second at 4½ digits. Digitize voltage and digitize current have separate internal signal paths that are optimized for fast response to signal changes.

Possible concern if you were using the higher res mode it might have to switch a relay every measurement? Or at the very least your measurement speed would be in half:
Quote
The DMM6500 allows you to make and display two measurements from different functions. The measurements are displayed on the front panel and stored in the reading buffers.
Depending on the selected functions, a relay may click when the instrument switches between the measurement types. Leaving secondary measurements on for extended periods may shorten the life of the relays.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 10:08:28 pm by thm_w »
 
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Offline drummerdimitri

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2018, 10:25:15 pm »
I am really curious as to whether or not it can do power and energy measurements using four wires. If it can I'm sold!

I don't see it explicitly stated anywhere that there is a "power" mode, but you can measure voltage and current at the same time for sure. Check reference manual page 184.
Calculations may have to be done with scripts written yourself. It would also be 3 wire not 4 wire, as the ground is shared.

From the manual, it sounds like if you are doing simultaneous current/voltage at 1Ms/s it would be 4.5 digit:
Quote
The DMM6500 digitize functions make fast, predictably spaced measurements. The speed, sensitivity, and bandwidth of the digitize functions allows you to make accurate voltage and current
readings of fast signals, such as those associated with sensors, audio, medical devices, power line issues, and industrial processes. The digitize functions can provide 1,000,000 readings per second at 4½ digits. Digitize voltage and digitize current have separate internal signal paths that are optimized for fast response to signal changes.

Possible concern if you were using the higher res mode it might have to switch a relay every measurement? Or at the very least your measurement speed would be in half:
Quote
The DMM6500 allows you to make and display two measurements from different functions. The measurements are displayed on the front panel and stored in the reading buffers.
Depending on the selected functions, a relay may click when the instrument switches between the measurement types. Leaving secondary measurements on for extended periods may shorten the life of the relays.

Thanks for the input.

I forgot about the relay switching between voltage and current measurments.

This would definitely not be the right instrument for energy measurments.
 


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