Author Topic: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510  (Read 78217 times)

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Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #425 on: February 21, 2019, 11:30:23 pm »
ps and ot: my R&S RTB2002 is generating such traces in real.
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Offline cozdas

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #426 on: February 22, 2019, 10:07:05 am »
...With some settings, the screen just start blinking, showing random data. With some other settings it takes measurement every now and then, and it just extrapolates the data between it? ...

I know what you mean, some parts are not really intuitive and there are many rough edges for sure, especially with the graphing part. AFAIK this is their first graphing line after all.

"Group of readings" part is not very well explained in the documents, and I was confused by that part too (user's manual doesn't mention it at all, reference manual has a brief mention). Also probably for handling the large data efficiently on the screen, they seem to have a hierarchical visual representation of the data; when zoomed out, the min, max and averaged values of "many samples" are displayed as a single line. Sometimes this "Level Of Detail" part gets confused and shows a coarser view. This happens very often with the fast digitize setups in my experience but can happen anytime if you play with the axis scale options (See the images). Pinch-zoom is usually enough to unconfuse it :)

Many rough edges, true, but still a very versatile device. I'm hoping that Keithley keeps resources dedicated for fixing the bugs.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 10:24:00 pm by cozdas »
 
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Offline IAmBack

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #427 on: February 22, 2019, 02:34:12 pm »
FYI, it's birthday of this thread ;)
 
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Offline Neuromodulator

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #428 on: February 28, 2019, 04:57:28 am »
Whats the "proper" way to perform measurements when the trigger is high?
I tried:

trigger.extin.edge = trigger.EDGE_EITHER

trigger.model.setblock(1, trigger.BLOCK_BUFFER_CLEAR, buffer)
trigger.model.setblock(2, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_EXTERNAL, trigger.CLEAR_ENTER)
trigger.model.setblock(3, trigger.BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE, buffer, trigger.COUNT_INFINITE)
trigger.model.setblock(4, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_EXTERNAL, trigger.CLEAR_ENTER)
trigger.model.setblock(5, trigger.BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE, buffer, trigger.COUNT_STOP)

But this could get activated when trigger is low, and I also received a warning in the log stating: "trigger model is not optimized for speed due to multiple blocks waiting on the same event. Less complex trigger models can utilize hardware resources to improve performance. The trigger model requires the use of slower resources and may not achieve published specifications".

Thanks
 

Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #429 on: March 05, 2019, 06:32:22 pm »
Whats the "proper" way to perform measurements when the trigger is high?
I tried:

trigger.extin.edge = trigger.EDGE_EITHER

trigger.model.setblock(1, trigger.BLOCK_BUFFER_CLEAR, buffer)
trigger.model.setblock(2, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_EXTERNAL, trigger.CLEAR_ENTER)
trigger.model.setblock(3, trigger.BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE, buffer, trigger.COUNT_INFINITE)
trigger.model.setblock(4, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_EXTERNAL, trigger.CLEAR_ENTER)
trigger.model.setblock(5, trigger.BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE, buffer, trigger.COUNT_STOP)

But this could get activated when trigger is low, and I also received a warning in the log stating: "trigger model is not optimized for speed due to multiple blocks waiting on the same event. Less complex trigger models can utilize hardware resources to improve performance. The trigger model requires the use of slower resources and may not achieve published specifications".

Thanks
That's the method I would use (or close to it).  The external trigger lines and trigger model were designed with traditional TTL triggering in mind, so the command set around it is geared towards transitions rather than states.  For state based triggering, I would recommend using DIO if possible so you could do a simple state check before starting the trigger model.  But, as long as your trigger line starts low, this trigger model should be fine.  If this is a script, you could add some TSP logic before hand to wait for a falling edge then change the external trigger logic to either and initiate the model.  To hard code it even more, you could rewrite the commands outside the trigger model so you could change trigger.extin.edge between rising and falling after every detected event.

I wouldn't worry about the optimization warning for this setup, you explicitly want to use the same event for two wait statements in this case.  One way to simplify this a bit would to move the stop block to position 2, then change the second wait block to a BRANCH_ON_EVENT block and branch to position 2, i.e.:
Code: [Select]
trigger.model.setblock(1, trigger.BLOCK_BUFFER_CLEAR, buffer)
trigger.model.setblock(2, trigger.BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE, buffer, trigger.COUNT_STOP)
trigger.model.setblock(3, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_EXTERNAL, trigger.CLEAR_ENTER)
trigger.model.setblock(4, trigger.BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE, buffer, trigger.COUNT_INFINITE)
trigger.model.setblock(5, trigger.BLOCK_BRANCH_ON_EVENT, trigger.EVENT_EXTERNAL, 2)
 

Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #430 on: March 07, 2019, 06:42:17 pm »
Hi,

I just got my DMM6500 for work today.
First impression looks good, had a few errors when using apps or switching between kickstart and local, but nothing dramatic.

I do have a few questions though:
- There is an A4 environmental info sheet included but it states that the PCB is still using lead but I think this is forbidden in Europe for new products, is this correct or just an old form in the box that was never updated?
Or maybe DMMs are an exception.
(the year on the paper was 2007)

- Do the 7700 series cards fit on it like the 7710, I thought only the 2000 cards?
I ask because in the DMM6500 firmware "update notes" I read:
Quote
Reference number: NIHK-6331
The 7701, 7706, or 7708 now make accurate measurements for all combinations of 2-wire and 4-wire measurements, whether in a scan, script, or from the display.
It's not a shared firmware with the DAQ6510.

-Did anyone make an FFT app, do you think that is possible, i mean can we make XY graphs?
I saw the clock app so looks possible, I don't know about speed.
Like instead of moving over the wave data to see the time zoom, you would see like a 1024 points FFT.

- What do you need to build an TSPAPP, also the tsp builder?

Edit: one FEATURE REQUEST: could someone just make the numbers on the axis better chosen (less digits when not needed)
Example: I have a histogram with Y-grid 0, 40.1 ,80.2 ,120.3 etc. what was wrong with a grid of 0, 40, 80, 120??
I don't say less accurate by rounding, but choose the grid size better.
I remember when I was young and had a TI calculator the graph XY steps were always long numbers.
I figured out how they determined the steps and I wrote a script that adjusted the max. values of the X and Y axis so the step size would be a nice round number. (in this example just choose the max value 400 instead of 401.0 and for the X-axis that could easily be -1.700, -1.600, -1.500 etc.)

FYI the firmware version on it was 1.0.02a and it updated without problem.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 09:05:27 pm by KedasProbe »
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
[W. Bruce Cameron]
 

Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #431 on: March 08, 2019, 05:00:51 pm »
I got my first blue screen while doing measurements, changing voltage measure settings, math and going to the graphs, no USB or LAN used:
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 05:02:51 pm by KedasProbe »
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
[W. Bruce Cameron]
 

Offline jancumps

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #432 on: March 09, 2019, 01:43:44 pm »

...
-Did anyone make an FFT app, do you think that is possible, i mean can we make XY graphs?
...

I am trying to do that - either a script or an app.
I'm currently testing if I can use the histogram gaph to show buckets of values.
If I can do that, I'm going to try to use existing fft sources to turn digitised measurements into buckets.
 

Offline jancumps

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #433 on: March 09, 2019, 02:16:08 pm »
mixed results :)

 

Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #434 on: March 09, 2019, 03:16:07 pm »
So let me try to understand it:
You take your measurement buffer and make a new 'fake' frequency measurement buffer and hence you can use the existing graph, correct?
You could do that with only a script I think, it's a creative solution, would also allow to test the processing power.
Do you know what the max. number of bins is for the graph? Since that will be your freq resolution in relation to your sample rate.

The amplitude axis 'count' you will not be able to convert to amplitude I assume, although the ratios would be right.
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Offline jancumps

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #435 on: March 09, 2019, 03:25:33 pm »
Quote
You take your measurement buffer and make a new 'fake' frequency measurement buffer and hence you can use the existing graph, correct?
Yes. I haven't done any measurements. Just created a buffer with unit Hz.
Filled it with 10 sample values (100, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1) using a script.
Displayed it using the Histogram functionality.


Nothing else is happening in my script.
I figured if I can display an array in the histogram view, and I can use an FTT script to turn samples into the frequency domain via known FTT algorithms, I'd be close to a solution.
The maximum number of bins is 700.

 

Offline TCD330

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #436 on: March 18, 2019, 07:36:59 pm »
I am looking for a new bench multimeter and came across this thread.
From what I can read the DMM6500 will be on my short-list.

Some questions I hope someone can answer.

I understand that there is a lithium coin cell used for the real-time clock, and that it is meant to be factory replaced. The DMM6500 datasheet indicates 3+ years of battery life. If I replace this battery myself, will it affect calibration? If the DMM6500 is permanently connnected to mains without being swithced on, will the coin cell be drained, or will the real-time clock be powered from mains?

I understand that the DMM6500 is / was bundled with a free licence for the KickStarter software. I read it was valid until March this year. Does this mean end of February or end of March? I checked with RS in Norway, and they had never heard about any such bundle.

 

Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #437 on: March 22, 2019, 03:42:02 pm »
I do have a few questions though:
- There is an A4 environmental info sheet included but it states that the PCB is still using lead but I think this is forbidden in Europe for new products, is this correct or just an old form in the box that was never updated?
Or maybe DMMs are an exception.
(the year on the paper was 2007)
The DMM6500/6510 are definitely RoHS compliant (the EU rule that prevents lead and cadmium use), but they still may contain those in certain parts.  They have some exemptions for things like high voltage components, and certain required alloys.  That sheet that's included is for some Chinese laws that have different requirements from RoHS.  I'm not terribly familiar with them so I can't go into detail but that's the reason for the discrepancy. 

- Do the 7700 series cards fit on it like the 7710, I thought only the 2000 cards?
I ask because in the DMM6500 firmware "update notes" ...
No, only the 2000 cards work with the DMM6500, the 77xx cards are only for the DAQ6510 (they really look very different, you couldn't confuse them in person).  I believe they made the decision to share the release notes between the two instruments to simplify things, so there may be other places where exclusive features are referenced in updates.

-Did anyone make an FFT app, do you think that is possible, i mean can we make XY graphs?
I saw the clock app so looks possible, I don't know about speed.
Like instead of moving over the wave data to see the time zoom, you would see like a 1024 points FFT.
Someone was working on one early in development but it was very slow.  I will see if I can find it to see if it still works in the current firmware. 

- What do you need to build an TSPAPP, also the tsp builder?
Instructions will be coming later this year, but really they're just text files with .tspa extension.  They have some header requirements as well, I would look at existing examples to see what the header fields are.  Test Script Builder is an IDE for developing in TSP, but technically you could use anything to write them.

Edit: one FEATURE REQUEST: could someone just make the numbers on the axis better chosen (less digits when not needed)
Example: I have a histogram with Y-grid 0, 40.1 ,80.2 ,120.3 etc. what was wrong with a grid of 0, 40, 80, 120??
I don't say less accurate by rounding, but choose the grid size better.
I remember when I was young and had a TI calculator the graph XY steps were always long numbers.
I figured out how they determined the steps and I wrote a script that adjusted the max. values of the X and Y axis so the step size would be a nice round number. (in this example just choose the max value 400 instead of 401.0 and for the X-axis that could easily be -1.700, -1.600, -1.500 etc.)
Noted, thanks!

I understand that there is a lithium coin cell used for the real-time clock, and that it is meant to be factory replaced. The DMM6500 datasheet indicates 3+ years of battery life. If I replace this battery myself, will it affect calibration? If the DMM6500 is permanently connnected to mains without being swithced on, will the coin cell be drained, or will the real-time clock be powered from mains?
It might?  The box isn't supposed to be opened at all, that's what the calibration is counting on, realistically, the calibration probably wouldn't change that much.  If you care about the calibration though you're probably sending it in once a year so they could just change the battery then if it dies. 

All you need to do to replace that battery is pull off the front panel panel and put another CR2032 battery in, it's in a holder right behind the display.  The battery will drain whenever the unit isn't on, even if it's connected to mains.  But, the ONLY thing that battery powers is the real time clock which has such a low drain that it's basically the same as the charge leakage of the battery.  Really, you're limited by the battery's shelf life minus a couple months maybe.  Also, it doesn't affect measurements at all, so if it dies you might not have any need to replace it, the date of the instrument would just be wrong whenever you turn it on.

I understand that the DMM6500 is / was bundled with a free licence for the KickStarter software. I read it was valid until March this year. Does this mean end of February or end of March? I checked with RS in Norway, and they had never heard about any such bundle.
It was originally valid until March 31st of this year (so through next week) but that will shortly be extended another few months at least.  You can tell them to check Tektronix Sales Tools for MSR 113-2485, or look at the DMM6500 partner presentation, or talk to their Tektronix rep if they need help figuring out what to do.  They should quote you a KICKSTARTFL-BASE license and discount it to $0, so in the quote you will still see the full price of the license and a separate item that takes that price off.  If they STILL won't give it to you for free, you can go ahead and make the purchase and talk to the Tektronix sales reps in Norway to get KickStart afterwords.  Just explain the situation and give them the serial number of your unit.
 
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #438 on: March 25, 2019, 03:05:16 pm »
I understand that the DMM6500 is / was bundled with a free licence for the KickStarter software. I read it was valid until March this year. Does this mean end of February or end of March? I checked with RS in Norway, and they had never heard about any such bundle.
I bought it at farnell.com, when I registered on https://www.tek.com/ I got a redeem button for the license code.
But from what I understood this type of license cannot be moved to another computer. (I did not try though)
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
[W. Bruce Cameron]
 

Offline gas_liosia

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #439 on: March 26, 2019, 09:43:38 pm »
Dear all, hello. I used to be a guest in the forum but finally this is my first post. I had an early DMM6500 unit and I faced a problem with a humming noise from the transformer. I communicated with TEK and they offered me a new replacement unit because some of the early ones had the same problem. The new one seems to work fine. I see that there is a new firmware available V1.0.04 that I would like to install, but I can't find the V1.0.02a that I have already installed in case I would like to do a downgrade. I dont't know if it is a special version for me due to my first problem, although I think that the problem was in the hardware. Does anyone have the V1.0.02a file?
 

Offline Joel_l

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #440 on: March 27, 2019, 07:34:11 pm »
Hi,

I was about to pull the trigger on a 34465A when I saw this, seems like a better deal all around, specs and features. I see the best price at valuetronixs. Anyone deal with them?

Joel
 

Offline shodan@micron

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #441 on: March 28, 2019, 03:40:27 am »
Hi dear Brad O
Thanks for add Excel export in 2.0.5 Kickstart release!

Also i have problems with high precision measurements in Kickstart, as example:
1 - When i measure 10.59077 value on 10V range, main(settings) screen shows only 10.5908 - last digit lost.
2 - No auto-zero config on settings screen.
3 - On graph last digits also desapear, as result horizontal line legends are same.

DMM6500 also do not shows last digit's on graph, horizontal line legends are same.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 02:06:06 pm by shodan@micron »
 
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Offline kado

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #442 on: March 28, 2019, 12:48:09 pm »
shodan@micron / Brad O.

want to double all that mentioned  details in KickStart !!!

Karsten




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Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #443 on: March 28, 2019, 02:30:52 pm »
That's it, why I use the csv in libre office directly.
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Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #444 on: April 02, 2019, 08:47:27 pm »
I bought it at farnell.com, when I registered on https://www.tek.com/ I got a redeem button for the license code.
But from what I understood this type of license cannot be moved to another computer. (I did not try though)
That is true, that's a "locked" license so it is tied to the computer you first register the software to.  That's a separate promotion running right now I think for all of our touch screen instruments.  If you'd still like the floating license, you can reach out to the Tek office for your geographic location (www.tek.com/contact_us). 

Also i have problems with high precision measurements in Kickstart, as example:
1 - When i measure 10.59077 value on 10V range, main(settings) screen shows only 10.5908 - last digit lost.
2 - No auto-zero config on settings screen.
3 - On graph last digits also desapear, as result horizontal line legends are same.

DMM6500 also do not shows last digit's on graph, horizontal line legends are same.
Hmm, I see what you mean. I've passed those comments along to the KickStart folks, I'll post again if they get back to me with a detailed response.  I agree with you though.

On the DMM6500 graph, that's been largely fixed in the latest development firmware, the next firmware will increase the graph resolution so you'll be able to see several spaces beyond the instrument specs.  Which reminds me, unfortunately the release of the next firmware has been delayed until the end of May.  The team was really hoping to get it out by the end of March but it just wasn't ready with all the features we wanted in it.  In addition, we've been trying to incorporate the feedback everyone here on EEVBlog has given.  It's really quite hard to get direct feedback from people in this industry so your comments and problems have been extremely helpful in learning more about how people are using our instruments so thank you all!
 
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Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #445 on: April 04, 2019, 04:58:31 pm »
From the KickStart folks:
Also i have problems with high precision measurements in Kickstart, as example:
1 - When i measure 10.59077 value on 10V range, main(settings) screen shows only 10.5908 - last digit lost.
2 - No auto-zero config on settings screen.
3 - On graph last digits also desapear, as result horizontal line legends are same.

DMM6500 also do not shows last digit's on graph, horizontal line legends are same.
1- They're aware of this one, the 6500 seems to have had its number of digits truncated 1 too many in some cases.  So a basic bug, it will be fixed in the next release.
2- This was actually already planned for the next release.  It's going through testing now.
3- They're aware of this one too and hope to have a fix in the next release by extending the number of digits available to the y-axis.  This one is a bit trickier than the DMM6500 front panel though as it affects all the instruments and there's a couple different ways to solve it.  It's on the docket though, thanks for the feedback!
 
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Offline TCD330

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #446 on: April 04, 2019, 08:09:07 pm »
I finally got my DMM6500.

I provided Elfa Distrelec with the spoon-feeding instructions from Brad, but they did still not get it. They believed the Kickstart software maybe was in the box together with the instrument, but did not know for sure.

Instead of wasting more time on them, I found I could buy directly from Tek parter Nortelco in Norway. Same price, and excellent service. Lession learnt is that the Distrelec system only push boxes. Distrelec is listed as a partner on tek.com, but seems to lack a lot when it comes to product knowledge. Not my problem, but others might find other sellers more worthy their money.

I had more or less settled on a 34461A, but since Brad was active in this tread providing real help to many since long time ago, I took a closer look at the DMM6500. Now I must spend a lot of time figuring out what I bought; this is much more than just a "multimeter" :) Thanks again Brad for your assistance!
 
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Offline kado

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #447 on: April 05, 2019, 05:01:28 am »
Same experience here with "Distrelec" !!!

Waiting now more than 8 weeks for a Reedem - invitation to licence my KickStart-Basic FLOATING licence in my customer database.

German Tek office won´t / can´t help me even I send them my invoice where are listed the DMM6500 AND the KickStart-FL Software. Shame ... wasted time with several phone calls and a lot of emails.

Can´t understand Tek´s philosophy with this handling for selling / promoting this Licence and the customer care. Never had that experience with KS in the past years.

Sorry for ranting, but my good feeling for this purchase is over now.

Karsten
 

Offline MikeP

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #448 on: April 06, 2019, 08:35:56 am »
 A small update.

 Yesterday I firstly tested the measurepower.tsp script. Before there was no need and opportunity.
 Everything works fine. There is the possibility of independent measurements. The picture can explain it.

 The inputs of the multimeter have a galvanic connection (the second picture). I think this may affect accuracy. I ask Brad to explain the inner structure and imposed restrictions.

 Thanks.
 M.
 

Offline jancumps

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #449 on: April 06, 2019, 12:03:43 pm »
This has been addressed here somewhere - I thought in thos thread but can't find it back ...
 


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