Author Topic: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510  (Read 87190 times)

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Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #475 on: May 07, 2019, 12:58:02 pm »
In combination with Brad O's neuro-surgery App, this would also open up completely new possibilities for the selfmade ambitious hobby craftsman.  ;D
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Offline cozdas

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #476 on: May 10, 2019, 05:29:11 am »
I was planning to build a DIY Solid state, 10-chan SCAN card (so that I can collect data during the night at home without the dripping tap simulation), but since DMM6500 seems to drive the 20-chan card I changed my design to double the channels (the more the merrier).

I'll let you know if I hit a problem with the DMM6500 behavior,

It's alive!!!!

I still need to buy more solid-state relays to populate the rest of the board but what's there seems to work flawlessly (so far), silent and fast. Since I was trying to keep the cost as low as possible (you can tell from the all DIY PCB board), the relays are not the best, the on state resistance of each channel is around 2 Ohm. But it's not a big deal as I have plenty of channels to use kelvin connections if needed. A $12 Atmega32u4 based board is handling all the logic.

(top board: Keithley 2000-Scan with wires attached for protocol sniffing)
(bottom board: DIY 20-chan solid state scan card)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 05:35:42 am by cozdas »
 
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Offline kado

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New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #477 on: May 10, 2019, 07:03:10 am »
cozdas

[emoji106]amazing! That’s an interesting project. Please keep us informed.

Karsten


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
 
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Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #478 on: May 10, 2019, 08:25:47 am »
....
It's alive!!!!

I still need to buy more solid-state relays to populate the rest of the board but what's there seems to work flawlessly (so far), silent and fast. Since I was trying to keep the cost as low as possible (you can tell from the all DIY PCB board), the relays are not the best, the on state resistance of each channel is around 2 Ohm. But it's not a big deal as I have plenty of channels to use kelvin connections if needed. A $12 Atmega32u4 based board is handling all the logic.

(top board: Keithley 2000-Scan with wires attached for protocol sniffing)
(bottom board: DIY 20-chan solid state scan card)

The on state resistance is a kind of compromise: low resistance also means more leakage. So for just voltage measurements one would prefer even higher resistance (up to a few KOhms) and thus lower leakage types.
 
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #479 on: May 11, 2019, 11:39:24 am »
It's alive!!!!
A low cost DIY (CozScan 2020) solid state relay solution for DMM6500  :-+
I blame you that I just ordered a DMM6500 for home use  ;)  (I don't expect to get the 'free' kickstart license)
Will this be open hardware/software?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2019, 12:43:08 pm by KedasProbe »
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Offline h4X||

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #480 on: May 14, 2019, 04:05:28 pm »
I have decided on either a Keithley Tek DAQ6510 or Keysight 34465A. Really leaning towards the Tek for attempting to drive a bed of nails test rig in addition to daily hardware dev and test logging duties.
Anyone using the 6x8 DAQ module?

PM me any thoughts / links on bed of nails test rig driving (dont want to clog the thread). context: I have previously just used target device MCUs to self drive a test rig, but that has limitations similar to external MCU driver.

Keithley/Tek visibility and issue transparency in the forum on this thread is a HUGE reason for considering a Tek. That takes serious stand up character to manage. My Agilent/Keysight MSO7104 scope has been a workhorse when I depended on it mid career.

Anyone have any recommendations for quotes/pricing? I am in USA and want calibrated new (built in 2019).
 

Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #481 on: May 15, 2019, 06:44:54 pm »
Feature request:
1) A fast way to store the stats of the measurement to USB, I know you can use a screenshot but then you need to store screenshots. You can also not just copy it in a excel file.
Two options:
  A) When you take a screenshot with home+enter also write a second file, a csv with the same name.

  B) Make it possible to link a script to a button, like maybe home+trigger runs a pre-selected script.
      and let the script do the needed actions.
      (This is maybe a feature on its own that could be useful for all kind of situations.)

2) A feature request for the current measurement mode, show the voltage drop! (burden voltage isn't a second measurement) Now I have to check to be sure it's low enough. (although if not much work I choose my own resistor value)

3) For math y=mx+b, support entering 2 points (like: 4mA=0 and 20mA=7) instead of entering m and b and let it calculate m and b. (maybe this should be a script)
Also an option to change the 'X' to an 3 char that has meaning. (sometimes you forget what you were displaying after reloading the settings)

« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 08:01:59 pm by KedasProbe »
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #482 on: May 16, 2019, 06:20:41 pm »
I made few comparisons: (only one voltage from battery)
new DMM6500 vs older DMM6500
and
new DMM6500 vs old DM3068:  diff 0.0017%

The DM3068 seems to be less noisy.  (I will measure the BW later but the DM3068 is also big)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 06:34:34 pm by KedasProbe »
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Offline JxR

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #483 on: May 16, 2019, 06:30:11 pm »
Feature request:
1) A fast way to store the stats of the measurement to USB, I know you can use a screenshot but then you need to store screenshots. You can also not just copy it in a excel file.
Two options:
  A) When you take a screenshot with home+enter also write a second file, a csv with the same name.

Something like this would be nice.  If such a feature is considered: I would also like to see the ability to only copy the log data between the cursors, if the cursors were turned on.
 

Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #484 on: May 17, 2019, 02:18:45 am »
I take screenshoots and csv's per LAN 'Virtual Frontpanel' and 'Extract Data' to Libre Office.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/usa-cal-club-round-2/msg2314803/#msg2314803

Yes, that's a bit more work, but nothing essential. In my opinion, it would be important to be able to position the cursor exactly at all, instead of just using the imprecise touchscreen.

Edit: Csv's from within the cursor would be nice certainly. Especially since the data already stored on screen.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 02:56:46 am by hwj-d »
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #485 on: May 19, 2019, 10:09:39 am »
Just a quick burden voltage test:
The front goes up to 3A but is only useful to go that high if the burden voltage isn't an issue.
At 1A you already have 0.27V so putting it in series with a battery supply isn't an option.

The 10A must be connected to the back then you can go to 2.8A for an 50mV drop. (17.6m\$\Omega\$)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 10:24:35 am by KedasProbe »
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #486 on: May 20, 2019, 09:42:41 am »
Beta storage service (initialstate): Anyone using this?
https://www.initialstate.com/keithley/

« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 09:44:45 am by KedasProbe »
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #487 on: May 20, 2019, 10:37:53 am »
Beta storage service (initialstate): Anyone using this?
https://www.initialstate.com/keithley/

Don't really know what it is at all. Something to buy?
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Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #488 on: May 20, 2019, 07:48:02 pm »
Beta storage service (initialstate): Anyone using this?
https://www.initialstate.com/keithley/

This is something we're testing right now.  Come to think of it, I probably should've mentioned it here before!  Initial State specializes in cloud based data visualization and monitoring.  The idea is that you can use all the Initial State features with a DAQ6510.  So you could access your data anywhere, set up custom, complex triggers and notifications, custom dashboards etc.  I've attached the datasheet/flyer.  An Initial State account is required and costs money (14 day free trial if you want to try it out and give me/Initial State feedback!) but is otherwise free.  You can then also use Initial State for any other projects, they have a ton of in-depth guides and walkthroughs on using their service with a wide variety of applications and data sources.  The full guide for the DAQ6510 is here if you want to try it out: https://support.initialstate.com/hc/en-us/articles/360024313832-1-Keithley-Datalogger-Integration-Beta-Summary-Getting-Started

Feature request:
1) A fast way to store the stats of the measurement to USB, I know you can use a screenshot but then you need to store screenshots. You can also not just copy it in a excel file.
Two options:
  A) When you take a screenshot with home+enter also write a second file, a csv with the same name.

  B) Make it possible to link a script to a button, like maybe home+trigger runs a pre-selected script.
      and let the script do the needed actions.
      (This is maybe a feature on its own that could be useful for all kind of situations.)

2) A feature request for the current measurement mode, show the voltage drop! (burden voltage isn't a second measurement) Now I have to check to be sure it's low enough. (although if not much work I choose my own resistor value)

3) For math y=mx+b, support entering 2 points (like: 4mA=0 and 20mA=7) instead of entering m and b and let it calculate m and b. (maybe this should be a script)
Also an option to change the 'X' to an 3 char that has meaning. (sometimes you forget what you were displaying after reloading the settings)
1) Hmm, so a csv of just the buffer stats?  We have thought about using buttons as shortcuts for scripts before but ultimately decided not to since the buttons are supposed to be universal across instruments.  Scripts are already pretty easy to access with the drop-down menu too, yes?  Or not fast enough for you? 

2) The DMM6500 doesn't have any internal way to find out what the voltage drop is.  The shunt resistors are internally calibrated, but there's also the path resistance which is pretty variable and can't really be measured by internal processes.  BUT, you can use the secondary measurement feature to measure voltage drop by shorting INPUT HI to AMPS, that would measure the internal voltage across the current leads.  If you choose the 1A or 3A range, there won't be any relay clicking on <100V ranges.  OR, you could go a step further and measure the voltage drop out to your DUT by connecting INPUT HI to the high side of your DUT.  You could remove the low side path voltage drop by using the rel feature between INPUT HI and your DUT low terminal before swapping to measure voltage between INPUT HI and your DUT high side.  Does that make sense?  I can draw the process out if you want.

3) That definitely sounds like a good scripting opportunity.  y =mx+b is the standard, but I can see the opportunity for cases where a 2-point definition is more convenient.  It would certainly be possible to use a script to find the values of m + b for you.

@cozdas: Very impressive!
 
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #489 on: May 20, 2019, 08:37:19 pm »
1) Hmm, so a csv of just the buffer stats?  We have thought about using buttons as shortcuts for scripts before but ultimately decided not to since the buttons are supposed to be universal across instruments.  Scripts are already pretty easy to access with the drop-down menu too, yes?  Or not fast enough for you? 

2) The DMM6500 doesn't have any internal way to find out what the voltage drop is.  The shunt resistors are internally calibrated, but there's also the path resistance which is pretty variable and can't really be measured by internal processes.  BUT, you can use the secondary measurement feature to measure voltage drop by shorting INPUT HI to AMPS, that would measure the internal voltage across the current leads.  If you choose the 1A or 3A range, there won't be any relay clicking on <100V ranges.  OR, you could go a step further and measure the voltage drop out to your DUT by connecting INPUT HI to the high side of your DUT.  You could remove the low side path voltage drop by using the rel feature between INPUT HI and your DUT low terminal before swapping to measure voltage between INPUT HI and your DUT high side.  Does that make sense?  I can draw the process out if you want.
1) Yes just the stats also cursors if there are any, can we write a custom csv file to usb with scripts?
Fast, well would be easy if it was present in the same screenshot function so they match an I guess this is little work or risk for firmware.

2) Hmm I'm going to give that a try, but I don't need to see the exact drop but more like a warning of expected max drop like 2 digits accuracy. Like text in a new tab you update when going there "The burden voltage is about 0.23V at max current in the buffer and 0.52V at full range."
I assume it's possible in a script, maybe with your own measured values.

I just did a frequency measure test and it's within specification although I did expect it to be much better than spec.
My Rigol DM3068 (spec 0.007%) is measuring 100kHz correctly up to the last digit 0.1Hz
My DMM6500 shows 1.3Hz too high, not planning to use it as an accurate frequency measurement device.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 08:47:04 pm by KedasProbe »
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #490 on: May 21, 2019, 10:59:21 am »
Quite some part of the burden voltage for the highest current range comes from the fuse. Those larger high performance fuses have quite some resistance. Another point are switch contacts. So an estimate could be quite a bit off, especially if the fuse is replaced with a different brand / batch.

The information one the estimated / max burden is in the manual, but with so much screen area an information on the scree can be a good idea even if with some 25% uncertainty.
 

Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #491 on: May 21, 2019, 06:52:08 pm »
2) The DMM6500 doesn't have any internal way to find out what the voltage drop is.  The shunt resistors are internally calibrated, but there's also the path resistance which is pretty variable and can't really be measured by internal processes.  BUT, you can use the secondary measurement feature to measure voltage drop by shorting INPUT HI to AMPS, that would measure the internal voltage across the current leads.  If you choose the 1A or 3A range, there won't be any relay clicking on <100V ranges.  OR, you could go a step further and measure the voltage drop out to your DUT by connecting INPUT HI to the high side of your DUT.  You could remove the low side path voltage drop by using the rel feature between INPUT HI and your DUT low terminal before swapping to measure voltage between INPUT HI and your DUT high side.  Does that make sense?  I can draw the process out if you want.

Tried this measurement method:
Seems to be a difference of 37m\$\Omega\$ less, I'm losing a bit of wire there.

edit: adding 100mA and 10mA range, it isn't working as expected. (relay switching)

« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 08:04:16 pm by KedasProbe »
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #492 on: May 21, 2019, 10:43:12 pm »
1) Hmm, so a csv of just the buffer stats?  We have thought about using buttons as shortcuts for scripts before but ultimately decided not to since the buttons are supposed to be universal across instruments.  Scripts are already pretty easy to access with the drop-down menu too, yes?  Or not fast enough for you? 
1) Yes just the stats also cursors if there are any, can we write a custom csv file to usb with scripts?
Fast, well would be easy if it was present in the same screenshot function so they match an I guess this is little work or risk for firmware.
Yes you can write custom csv files pretty easily using file.open() and file.write(). The next firmware will include support for getting buffer stats of a subset of the buffer, which is how cursor stats work, if not the ability to automatically create those csv files with screenshots. 

2) The DMM6500 doesn't have any internal way to find out what the voltage drop is.  The shunt resistors are internally calibrated, but there's also the path resistance which is pretty variable and can't really be measured by internal processes.  BUT, you can use the secondary measurement feature to measure voltage drop by shorting INPUT HI to AMPS, that would measure the internal voltage across the current leads.  If you choose the 1A or 3A range, there won't be any relay clicking on <100V ranges.  OR, you could go a step further and measure the voltage drop out to your DUT by connecting INPUT HI to the high side of your DUT.  You could remove the low side path voltage drop by using the rel feature between INPUT HI and your DUT low terminal before swapping to measure voltage between INPUT HI and your DUT high side.  Does that make sense?  I can draw the process out if you want.
2) Hmm I'm going to give that a try, but I don't need to see the exact drop but more like a warning of expected max drop like 2 digits accuracy. Like text in a new tab you update when going there "The burden voltage is about 0.23V at max current in the buffer and 0.52V at full range."
I assume it's possible in a script, maybe with your own measured values.
It sounds like you might just want to set up a limit then?  You could estimate at what current you'll start worrying about burden voltage and set up a measurement limit to warn you at that level.

2) The DMM6500 doesn't have any internal way to find out what the voltage drop is.  The shunt resistors are internally calibrated, but there's also the path resistance which is pretty variable and can't really be measured by internal processes.  BUT, you can use the secondary measurement feature to measure voltage drop by shorting INPUT HI to AMPS, that would measure the internal voltage across the current leads.  If you choose the 1A or 3A range, there won't be any relay clicking on <100V ranges.  OR, you could go a step further and measure the voltage drop out to your DUT by connecting INPUT HI to the high side of your DUT.  You could remove the low side path voltage drop by using the rel feature between INPUT HI and your DUT low terminal before swapping to measure voltage between INPUT HI and your DUT high side.  Does that make sense?  I can draw the process out if you want.

Tried this measurement method:
Seems to be a difference of 37m\$\Omega\$ less, I'm losing a bit of wire there.

edit: adding 100mA and 10mA range, it isn't working as expected. (relay switching)
Ah, my bad on not explaining this, the relay switching will cause brief discontinuities in the AMPS terminal so the Rigol that's not synced to the switching would measure a higher resistance.  If you hook a scope up to the terminals you should be able to see this.  The discontinuity happens because voltage measurements happen while the current range relay is in the 1A/3A position.  So if the relay isn't already in that position it will be forced there.  I'm not totally sure all the reasons that position is required, but I believe part of it is to prevent noise from reaching the voltage measurement circuitry. 

So anyway, it's best to use the 1A/3A ranges if you want to continuously measure burden voltage with this method.
 
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Offline JxR

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #493 on: May 22, 2019, 01:30:39 am »
The discontinuity happens because voltage measurements happen while the current range relay is in the 1A/3A position.  So if the relay isn't already in that position it will be forced there.  I'm not totally sure all the reasons that position is required, but I believe part of it is to prevent noise from reaching the voltage measurement circuitry. 

So anyway, it's best to use the 1A/3A ranges if you want to continuously measure burden voltage with this method.

Thank you for this magic number.  I've been scratching my head on why couldn't get relay switching to stop happening in certain ranges.  If this information isn't in the manual, it deserves a special place with bold font.
 
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Offline cozdas

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #494 on: May 22, 2019, 11:50:35 pm »
Another graphing bug report:

While scanning multiple channels (in this case 19 channels), the channels are not always displayed correctly on the x axis. As you can see in the attached images (where X-axis is in "show all" and y-axis is in "swim lanes" mode), when the x-axis is re-scaled to fit all, the tracks are aligned nicely but they will progress in different speeds and will get misaligned in time until the next re-scale.

 

Offline shodan@micron

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #495 on: May 25, 2019, 08:55:25 am »
Ive tested today my new LM399AH reference on Agilent 34410A parallel with Keithley DMM6500, get very interested results:
DMM6500 is too noisy, but comparsion seems like - dmm6500 have low temperature coefficent.


Both devices connected via LXI Instruments Datalogger apps with initial test parameters:
Agilent 34410A - [ "CONF:VOLT:DC 10", "VOLT:DC:NPLC 100", "VOLT:ZERO:AUTO ON", "TRIG:SOUR IMM", "VOLT:IMPedance:AUTO ON" ]
Read_command = "READ?"

Keithley DMM6500 - [ "*RST", ":SENSe:FUNCtion \"VOLT\"", ":VOLT:NPLC 10", ":VOLT:RANG 10", ":FORMat:ASCii:PRECision 9", ":VOLT:AZER ON", ":VOLT:AVERage:TCONtrol REPeat", ":VOLT:AVER:COUN 10", ":VOLT:AVER ON", ":VOLT:LINE:SYNC ON", ":VOLT:INP AUTO" ]
Read_command = ":MEAS:VOLTage:DC?"

CSV result file: link.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 09:01:46 am by shodan@micron »
 
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #496 on: May 25, 2019, 12:23:00 pm »
Let's check what 1nA looks like, 10Volt over a 10GOhm resistor.
Looks better than I thought it would.  I tried not to move while pressing the screenshot buttons :)

Edit
P.S. my kickStart license is finally shipping from farnell (tek UK) for work.  (the conrad.be (tek DE) email game is just started for home)

Edit2 I received my KickStart license for home already via "Tektronix France and Italy"  :-+  (5 Days after my email)
Different approach though: via farnell I got a package delivery, for home I got an email from tek with everything I need.
Both at the same day :) only the one from work I emailed about it almost 2 months ago.
(farnell did send a big box with an A4 paper in it with the code on it that I needed  :palm:)
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 12:19:17 pm by KedasProbe »
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #497 on: May 25, 2019, 12:23:40 pm »
Did you use any filter on dmm6500? What's the input impendance of both? Try to use "repeat, count 10", input z 10M \$\Omega\$, 5 NPLC
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #498 on: May 25, 2019, 12:43:53 pm »
Did you use any filter on dmm6500? What's the input impendance of both? Try to use "repeat, count 10", input z 10M \$\Omega\$, 5 NPLC
No filter, just 1PLC it's DC current.
The DMM6500 spec says 10k \$\Omega\$ so that is 1/1000 000 of the big resistor or it's measuring 10µV. STD: 0.455µV

edit: ah not for me, that makes more sense :)
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 03:34:33 pm by KedasProbe »
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #499 on: May 25, 2019, 01:43:52 pm »
Did you use any filter on dmm6500? What's the input impendance of both? Try to use "repeat, count 10", input z 10M \$\Omega\$, 5 NPLC
No filter, just 1PLC it's DC current.
The DMM6500 spec says 10k \$\Omega\$ so that is 1/1000 000 of the big resistor or it's measuring 10µV. STD: 0.455µV

Oh, excuse me, KedasProbe, that's to shodan. My posting had overlapped with yours.
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