Author Topic: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510  (Read 94571 times)

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Offline shodan@micron

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #675 on: August 10, 2019, 10:35:58 pm »
How can I tell if the touchscreen is the culprit or a bad firmware?
All firmware works fine. I use that with FW1.0.01, FW1.0.03, FW1.0.04 - without any capacitive touch problems.
 

Offline cozdas

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #676 on: August 10, 2019, 10:55:41 pm »
This DMM is completely unusable and extremely frustrating!  |O

This can't possibly be right!

I've attached a short clip demonstrating how the instrument is totally unresponsive. I can't be the only one having these issues right?

https://mega.nz/#!MZURjIxQ!z3RixZ78lUd9IsXTKDPOkJ3QRNn7nYZNAlUjnb4h_-4

The firmware has rough edges, looks like people at Keithley made sure that the main use cases are mostly error free but if you go well outside the typical use cases it misbehaves. When I got my unit early this year it was crashing/freezing multiple times a day, probably because I was clicking the buttons, doing things outside of the typical use scenarios. After my learning phase ended the problems went away.

There are known issues, one is with swap screen and some scripts and applications. Brad O. said somewhere above that they were hoping to get a new firmware late March 2019 but that didn't happen and he got silent recently. Hope they are still working on a bug-fix firmware to be released sometime soon.

Anyhow if you installed some apps, scripts, especially a startup script, you may want to do a system reset and check again. With the current firmware it's easy to put the unit in an unstable state.
 

Offline drummerdimitri

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #677 on: August 10, 2019, 11:01:42 pm »
This DMM is completely unusable and extremely frustrating!  |O

This can't possibly be right!

I've attached a short clip demonstrating how the instrument is totally unresponsive. I can't be the only one having these issues right?

https://mega.nz/#!MZURjIxQ!z3RixZ78lUd9IsXTKDPOkJ3QRNn7nYZNAlUjnb4h_-4

The firmware has rough edges, looks like people at Keithley made sure that the main use cases are mostly error free but if you go well outside the typical use cases it misbehaves. When I got my unit early this year it was crashing/freezing multiple times a day, probably because I was clicking the buttons, doing things outside of the typical use scenarios. After my learning phase ended the problems went away.

There are known issues, one is with swap screen and some scripts and applications. Brad O. said somewhere above that they were hoping to get a new firmware late March 2019 but that didn't happen and he got silent recently. Hope they are still working on a bug-fix firmware to be released sometime soon.

Anyhow if you installed some apps, scripts, especially a startup script, you may want to do a system reset and check again. With the current firmware it's easy to put the unit in an unstable state.

I have installed 5 scripts onto the machine. Will try to remove those to see if the unit will work normally again.
 

Offline drummerdimitri

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #678 on: August 10, 2019, 11:29:29 pm »
I've noticed that the placement of the DMM6500 affects this issue. When it was placed on a shelf as can be seen in the video, the issue appears. Now that I have it placed on my wooden computer desk it is back to working normally again :wtf:

My theory is that the surface of whatever the DMM is sitting on and/or my position relative to the DMM is somehow affecting the capacitance of my finger which results in a functional or non function touchscreen  :-//

Have I gone mad or does this make any sense?
 

Offline shodan@micron

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #679 on: August 10, 2019, 11:34:16 pm »
!!!!DANGEROUS!!!!

Hi dear Brad O.

Hardware bug report:

DMM6500 do not compatible with Keithley 4299-9 Dual Fixed Rack-Mount Kit for 2U Graphical Display Instruments.

When i install front rack ear, down screw cannot install properly. That screew is too long and break current sense terminal if install it on full lenght.


PS.I use nut as spacer, for install that screw to proper letght... but it bad way... you need fix dmm6500! With 2450 that ear install's properly.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 12:14:13 am by shodan@micron »
 
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Offline drummerdimitri

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #680 on: August 10, 2019, 11:49:19 pm »
I've noticed that the placement of the DMM6500 affects this issue. When it was placed on a shelf as can be seen in the video, the issue appears. Now that I have it placed on my wooden computer desk it is back to working normally again :wtf:

My theory is that the surface of whatever the DMM is sitting on and/or my position relative to the DMM is somehow affecting the capacitance of my finger which results in a functional or non function touchscreen  :-//

Have I gone mad or does this make any sense?

Never-mind, the problem is the power source.

For some reason it works fine when powered from the wall socket in my bedroom but not in another room  :-//

How does this make any sense?! Could it be that the instrument does not work properly when power from one of the 3 phases powering my house? Could it be a question of harmonics disturbing the sensitive components inside the meter?

I tried isolating the unit form the mains by powering it up from a pure sinewave inverter using a lead acid battery but the issue persisted.

 

Offline AG7CK

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #681 on: August 11, 2019, 04:02:13 am »
According to the forum page for Brad O, he was last active "June 14, 2019, 09:29:26 pm". His last post here seems to be June 7. He has not answered a private message I sent some 10+ days ago. Maybe the Danaher Group don't find it profitable to let him use his time here   :o

My DMM6500 works OK out of the box (Calibration dated March 2019). It has survived 3-10 black- and brownouts a day. It even runs on down to 160-70 volt AC line voltage (I live in the countryside in not particularly developed NE-Thailand).

                                                   ------ EDIT August 15 ------
Yesterday I sent a an email to Tek support just to try once more. This time I got all my 3 cases solved in a matter of hours. So I must change my view of the support given by Keithley/Tektronix US this time to a very positive one. I do however write "US" (i.e. Americas) above because I have not changed my view on support emails I got from China/Singapore.

So I am now quite a happy user of DMM6500 with full calibration data and Kickstart running. Let us hope Brad O or another Keithley representative comes back here so that the forum can report bugs in a single place.
- END of edit

- ORIGINAL post continued - but I am quite a lot more positive regarding support now:
I probably will never change firmware or program the box. Why? Because over the last 2 weeks in some 30+ emails back and forth with "support" persons in Keithley / Tektronix / Fluke (all Danaher) that redirected me around from Shanghai to Singapore to Thailand to the US and back and around and ... again and again, I have lost all hope of finding anything that (imo) even only remotely could be labeled helpful resulting from opening a support ticket. But I am OK. With the good reference manual, you will do fine as long as the box works. If it stops working - well, then ...

Good luck ::)
- END of old post - please see EDIT above as I have changed my view since writing this.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 03:27:16 am by AG7CK »
 
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Offline shodan@micron

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #682 on: August 11, 2019, 05:50:37 am »
According to the forum page for Brad O, he was last active "June 14, 2019, 09:29:26 pm". His last post here seems to be June 7. He has not answered a private message I sent some 10+ days ago. Maybe the Danaher Group don't find it profitable to let him use his time here   :o
I want to believe he is back.

There are known issues, one is with swap screen and some scripts and applications. Brad O. said somewhere above that they were hoping to get a new firmware late March 2019 but that didn't happen and he got silent recently. Hope they are still working on a bug-fix firmware to be released sometime soon.
For 2450 Tek released FW every 1-2 year: one FW in Nov 2018, one FW in Sep 2017, one FW in Sep 2015. I think new FW for DMM6500 will be released in next year...
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 06:27:48 am by shodan@micron »
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #683 on: August 11, 2019, 06:31:56 am »
I've noticed that the placement of the DMM6500 affects this issue. When it was placed on a shelf as can be seen in the video, the issue appears. Now that I have it placed on my wooden computer desk it is back to working normally again :wtf:

My theory is that the surface of whatever the DMM is sitting on and/or my position relative to the DMM is somehow affecting the capacitance of my finger which results in a functional or non function touchscreen  :-//

Have I gone mad or does this make any sense?

Never-mind, the problem is the power source.

For some reason it works fine when powered from the wall socket in my bedroom but not in another room  :-//

How does this make any sense?! Could it be that the instrument does not work properly when power from one of the 3 phases powering my house? Could it be a question of harmonics disturbing the sensitive components inside the meter?

I tried isolating the unit form the mains by powering it up from a pure sinewave inverter using a lead acid battery but the issue persisted.
It could be a grounding issue. The touch-screen may work better if the instrument is properly grounded ( PE via the mains cable).
 
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Offline eplpwr

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #684 on: August 11, 2019, 08:21:36 am »
!!!!DANGEROUS!!!!

Hi dear Brad O.

Hardware bug report:

DMM6500 do not compatible with Keithley 4299-9 Dual Fixed Rack-Mount Kit for 2U Graphical Display Instruments.

When i install front rack ear, down screw cannot install properly. That screew is too long and break current sense terminal if install it on full lenght.


PS.I use nut as spacer, for install that screw to proper letght... but it bad way... you need fix dmm6500! With 2450 that ear install's properly.

I can confirm the very same problem with DAQ6510 as well. Very bad engineering of 4299-9 RM kit.
 
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Offline shodan@micron

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #685 on: August 11, 2019, 09:14:35 am »
Very bad engineering of 4299-9 RM kit.
Yup! As example - Keysight 1CM011A Rackmount Flange Kit is very well thought out, no any problems, can install correct and simple to any half-size 2U Keysight instruments, can be installed to any rack depth(450mm, 600mm and more)...
But Keithley 4299-9 is horrible! Can install only to rack with over 800mm depth, and have many absurdities...

Major problem with DMM6500 is - Keithley move up all terminals, now terminals direct opposite the mount holes. In SMU 24** series, mount holes between terminals  - it fine... but 4299-9 doesn't seem reliable...
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 10:04:00 am by shodan@micron »
 

Offline drummerdimitri

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #686 on: August 11, 2019, 09:22:32 am »
I've noticed that the placement of the DMM6500 affects this issue. When it was placed on a shelf as can be seen in the video, the issue appears. Now that I have it placed on my wooden computer desk it is back to working normally again :wtf:

My theory is that the surface of whatever the DMM is sitting on and/or my position relative to the DMM is somehow affecting the capacitance of my finger which results in a functional or non function touchscreen  :-//

Have I gone mad or does this make any sense?

Never-mind, the problem is the power source.

For some reason it works fine when powered from the wall socket in my bedroom but not in another room  :-//

How does this make any sense?! Could it be that the instrument does not work properly when power from one of the 3 phases powering my house? Could it be a question of harmonics disturbing the sensitive components inside the meter?

I tried isolating the unit form the mains by powering it up from a pure sinewave inverter using a lead acid battery but the issue persisted.
It could be a grounding issue. The touch-screen may work better if the instrument is properly grounded ( PE via the mains cable).

That could very well be the case, however the issue is that in Lebanon we do not install a ground connection for in residences so how can I properly ground the instrument to assure the touchscreen would work properly?

Could I create an artificial ground somehow?
 

Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #687 on: August 11, 2019, 09:35:58 am »
How can I tell if the touchscreen is the culprit or a bad firmware?

Easy, when you have a buttons that do not respond anymore, go to the webinterface an try to click it with your mouse.
If it works you know it's the touchscreen.
(keep in mind that dragging with the mouse doesn't work very well, so you cannot test that)

And also if you pressed "copy to  power up" in run scripts with a bad script it could put it in a bad situation every time you reboot. (not sure if that is erased with a reset or if you have to overwrite it)
Attached the default "empty script" you can load. (remove .txt)
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
[W. Bruce Cameron]
 
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Offline The Soulman

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #688 on: August 11, 2019, 10:08:32 am »

It could be a grounding issue. The touch-screen may work better if the instrument is properly grounded ( PE via the mains cable).

That could very well be the case, however the issue is that in Lebanon we do not install a ground connection for in residences so how can I properly ground the instrument to assure the touchscreen would work properly?

Could I create an artificial ground somehow?

You could use any metal plumbing in your house, but this may be illegal and could be dangerous when the dmm6500
develops a short circuit between mains and ground, at least wire in a 30mA rcd.
Better is using a separate grounding rod if soil conditions allow (wet and soft is ideal, dry and hard is not).
 
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Online Wintel

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #689 on: August 11, 2019, 10:09:59 pm »
Does the DMM6500 can show one more digits, the 7.5th Digits in the STATISTICS screen like Keysight 34465A?

In Keysight 34465A, when enable the MATH -> Statistics function, the screen can display one more digits (the 7.5th Digits) in Average, like Average: +10.000,123 V, does DMM6500 can get the 7.5th Digits in the STATISTICS screen ?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 10:12:43 pm by Wintel »
 

Offline hwj-d

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Offline drummerdimitri

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #691 on: August 12, 2019, 09:23:39 pm »

It could be a grounding issue. The touch-screen may work better if the instrument is properly grounded ( PE via the mains cable).

That could very well be the case, however the issue is that in Lebanon we do not install a ground connection for in residences so how can I properly ground the instrument to assure the touchscreen would work properly?

Could I create an artificial ground somehow?

You could use any metal plumbing in your house, but this may be illegal and could be dangerous when the dmm6500
develops a short circuit between mains and ground, at least wire in a 30mA rcd.
Better is using a separate grounding rod if soil conditions allow (wet and soft is ideal, dry and hard is not).

All our plumbing is plastic, does that mean the only option is to stick a grounding rod in soil? How exactly will the power connections look like? Please explain  :-//
 

Offline shodan@micron

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #692 on: August 12, 2019, 09:31:30 pm »
Dear drummerdimitri, try connect your hand via anti-static wrist straps to DMM chassis. Before that check resistance of the cord, it must be 1M or large.
If major cause is grounding, you should see changes.....

All my equipment, rack's, table mat and all power source has been grounded, i can't check DMM without ground.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 09:53:51 pm by shodan@micron »
 

Offline drummerdimitri

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #693 on: August 12, 2019, 10:01:02 pm »
Dear drummerdimitri, try connect your hand via anti-static wrist straps to DMM chassis. Before that check resistance of the cord, it must be 1M or large.
If major cause is grounding, you should see changes.....

All my equipment, rack's, table mat and all power source has been grounded, i can't check DMM without ground.

You mean I should use an anti static wrist strap on my arm and then connect the other end to the DMM's chassis?

If so I tried it and it makes no difference. Or do you mean I should connect the chassis ground to the metal frame of my shelves?
 

Offline shodan@micron

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #694 on: August 12, 2019, 10:13:37 pm »
You mean I should use an anti static wrist strap on my arm and then connect the other end to the DMM's chassis?

Yes.
Capacitive touch must be worked properly if you have leakage path.

But... My experience with similar sensors - they do not need grounding, they very-very sensitive to any leakage.
As example: Mobile phone has no ground and work fine :)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 10:29:23 pm by shodan@micron »
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #695 on: August 12, 2019, 11:34:51 pm »
All our plumbing is plastic, does that mean the only option is to stick a grounding rod in soil? How exactly will the power connections look like? Please explain  :-//

Google installing an earth ground and you will find guides.

https://www.nachi.org/grounding-electrodes.htm
https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Ground-Rods


Here is the warning from the manual for reference:
Quote
The power cord supplied with the DMM6500 contains a separate protective earth (safety ground) wire for use with grounded outlets. When proper connections are made, the
instrument chassis is connected to power-line ground through the ground wire in the power cord. In the event of a failure, not using a properly grounded protective earth and grounded outlet may result in personal injury or death due to electric shock.
 

Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #696 on: August 16, 2019, 10:27:59 am »
cnrood is selling it for 760Euro (excl. tax)
Basically you are buying tax free compared to the 950Euro list price. (-20%)

https://www.cnrood.com/en/dmm6500-6-digit-touchscreen-multimeter

Quote
Special Price €760.00
Regular Price €950.00
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
[W. Bruce Cameron]
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #697 on: August 16, 2019, 10:34:26 am »
cnrood is selling it for 760Euro (excl. tax)
Basically you are buying tax free compared to the 950Euro list price. (-20%)

https://www.cnrood.com/en/dmm6500-6-digit-touchscreen-multimeter

Quote
Special Price €760.00
Regular Price €950.00


 Price of 760€ without VAT. Standard price without VAT is 806€..  So it is cheaper, but only 45€. Still a good deal.
 

Offline cgroen

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #698 on: August 16, 2019, 12:13:38 pm »
cnrood is selling it for 760Euro (excl. tax)
Basically you are buying tax free compared to the 950Euro list price. (-20%)

https://www.cnrood.com/en/dmm6500-6-digit-touchscreen-multimeter

Quote
Special Price €760.00
Regular Price €950.00

Thanks for hint! Ordered and payed for :)
(Euro 760,- excl VAT, shipping is free (Denmark))
 

Offline drummerdimitri

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #699 on: August 16, 2019, 05:13:10 pm »
How can I tell if the touchscreen is the culprit or a bad firmware?

Easy, when you have a buttons that do not respond anymore, go to the webinterface an try to click it with your mouse.
If it works you know it's the touchscreen.
(keep in mind that dragging with the mouse doesn't work very well, so you cannot test that)

And also if you pressed "copy to  power up" in run scripts with a bad script it could put it in a bad situation every time you reboot. (not sure if that is erased with a reset or if you have to overwrite it)
Attached the default "empty script" you can load. (remove .txt)

How to remove the .txt extension? I cannot just rename it in windows 10  :-//
 


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