Author Topic: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510  (Read 93404 times)

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Offline MegaVolt

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #775 on: November 21, 2019, 10:30:50 am »
So, it would appear that from this document at least, the "v1.7.0" firmware is not related to the DMM6500.
Yes. Firmware "v1.7.0" has just appeared for 7510. And in this firmware for the first time added the ability to run applications. To interest users, the application of the clock has been fixed. Those. A new watch is needed for the 7510.
 
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Offline HendriXML

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #776 on: November 21, 2019, 12:22:24 pm »
I'm still looking into what info can be extracted from this DMM. Using the TSP (lua) language it is possible to get info on the members that can be used in scripts.

Code: [Select]
for key,value in pairs(getmetatable(localnode.fan).Setters) do print(key, value) end
results in:
Code: [Select]
level function: 2238968

Where
Code: [Select]
print(fan.level)Results in
Code: [Select]
fan.LEVEL_QUIET
However setting this property like:
Code: [Select]
fan.level = fan.OFFDoes not seem to work. But it should be the right enum value (2) to turn it off.

Exploring this metadata might become handy.  :-+
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Offline HendriXML

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #777 on: November 21, 2019, 12:34:06 pm »
This command speeds up the fan for a little second, so the device is responding to a change in this property.
Code: [Select]
fan.level = fan.LEVEL_QUIET
Also
Code: [Select]
fan.level = fan.LEVEL_NORMAL
Makes the fan a lot louder…

The problem seems that fan.OFF is not of the right type.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 01:00:44 pm by HendriXML »
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #778 on: November 21, 2019, 01:33:50 pm »
I think it was mentioned by Keithley that it was already on its lowest setting and that off wasn't supported.
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Offline goaty

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #779 on: November 21, 2019, 02:17:17 pm »
Has anyone encountered the relay constantly clicking problem on 6500 when measuring current of a light load (~4mA, switching reagulator) ?
Setting to 1A manually works, but setting it to 10mA or 100mA results in "Overflow".
The load may have spikes, but definitely nothing in the 100+mA range.
Measuring voltage with shunt (0,1Ohm) works fine (100mV Range).

Any ideas ? Anyone encountered that ?

Thanks,
Thomas
 

Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #780 on: November 21, 2019, 02:20:14 pm »
So, it would appear that from this document at least, the "v1.7.0" firmware is not related to the DMM6500.
Yes. Firmware "v1.7.0" has just appeared for 7510. And in this firmware for the first time added the ability to run applications. To interest users, the application of the clock has been fixed. Those. A new watch is needed for the 7510.
I checked those release notes:
"KNOWN ISSUES" contains 1 record !?!
Maybe they mean newly added issues  ;D
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
[W. Bruce Cameron]
 

Offline exe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #781 on: November 21, 2019, 02:27:01 pm »
Could you please remind me, does the fan is always on, or only when the unit is booted up?
 

Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #782 on: November 21, 2019, 02:47:45 pm »
Has anyone encountered the relay constantly clicking problem on 6500 when measuring current of a light load (~4mA, switching reagulator) ?
Setting to 1A manually works, but setting it to 10mA or 100mA results in "Overflow".
The load may have spikes, but definitely nothing in the 100+mA range.
Measuring voltage with shunt (0,1Ohm) works fine (100mV Range).

Any ideas ? Anyone encountered that ?

Thanks,
Thomas

Yes but there were very short spikes that i didn't expect, it is very sensitive to very short current spikes.
Do a fast digitize if you want to see prove of those spikes.
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Offline HendriXML

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #783 on: November 21, 2019, 04:41:02 pm »
Could you please remind me, does the fan is always on, or only when the unit is booted up?
The fan is only on when the device is on. However a transformer hum can be heard even when the device is not on. Which can be heard in a silent room from I think 1.0 m. The fan can then be heard from 10 m.
I've heard worse. (My PC is water cooled to battle fan noise and near silent, so I'm not insensitive about fans)

My device is BTW about to be replaced by CN Rood. I hope the calibration date of the new device will be more recent. Are you tempted  :P?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 05:04:51 pm by HendriXML »
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Offline E-Design

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #784 on: November 21, 2019, 04:48:47 pm »
Hi All, long time lurker..

I can confirm, there is no officially sanctioned way to turn the fan off.
The specs (under all operating conditions) require the little bit of air movement inside the instrument.
For application engineering help, please consider posting at https://forum.tek.com/
 
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #785 on: November 21, 2019, 08:06:09 pm »
Hi All, long time lurker..

I can confirm, there is no officially sanctioned way to turn the fan off.
The specs (under all operating conditions) require the little bit of air movement inside the instrument.
Hi,

Do you think that blocking the inlet or outlet (left or right) would still provide this required little air movement?
Because you can make it much more silent by blocking it with paper on the outside.
I didn't want to keep the blocking since I saw the low voltage measurement move a little.

Also any advice on the hum, I have two one is louder than the other one, but how to know if it's out of spec and need to be returned? anything I can check/fix?

P.S. Do you speak in name of Keithley or is this more in your free time giving your own opinion?

Thanks
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Offline exe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #786 on: November 21, 2019, 08:15:30 pm »
My device is BTW about to be replaced by CN Rood. I hope the calibration date of the new device will be more recent. Are you tempted  :P?

Yeah, but I'll restrain myself :)
 

Offline E-Design

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #787 on: November 21, 2019, 08:56:25 pm »
Hi All, long time lurker..

I can confirm, there is no officially sanctioned way to turn the fan off.
The specs (under all operating conditions) require the little bit of air movement inside the instrument.
Hi,

Do you think that blocking the inlet or outlet (left or right) would still provide this required little air movement?
Because you can make it much more silent by blocking it with paper on the outside.
I didn't want to keep the blocking since I saw the low voltage measurement move a little.

Also any advice on the hum, I have two one is louder than the other one, but how to know if it's out of spec and need to be returned? anything I can check/fix?

P.S. Do you speak in name of Keithley or is this more in your free time giving your own opinion?

Thanks

I work on the product analog design for Keithley.

For the fan air - you could try blocking the vents with a breathable fabric. If placed loosely nearby it should still allow some air exchange while reducing the audible noise. If it is completely blocked off, the internal temp will rise and after some time, you may see measurements have drifted. A good test is turn autozero OFF then block up your airflow.. after 30 minutes see how much drift has occurred (in addition to the normal spec) - it might be perfectly acceptable to your application. This kind of operation wasn't characterized very much.

For your transformer hum - Early units are known to exhibit this. I think if you find it too loud, you can return it for exchange if its still in warranty. Brad O can better help with that. Otherwise, this problem can be fixed but it requires something most users would rather not deal with.

Everything I do on this forum is my free time but I can help answer questions since Brad seems quite busy these days - glad to help out.

For application engineering help, please consider posting at https://forum.tek.com/
 
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #788 on: November 21, 2019, 09:46:42 pm »
I work on the product analog design for Keithley.

For the fan air - you could try blocking the vents with a breathable fabric. If placed loosely nearby it should still allow some air exchange while reducing the audible noise. If it is completely blocked off, the internal temp will rise and after some time, you may see measurements have drifted. A good test is turn autozero OFF then block up your airflow.. after 30 minutes see how much drift has occurred (in addition to the normal spec) - it might be perfectly acceptable to your application. This kind of operation wasn't characterized very much.

For your transformer hum - Early units are known to exhibit this. I think if you find it too loud, you can return it for exchange if its still in warranty. Brad O can better help with that. Otherwise, this problem can be fixed but it requires something most users would rather not deal with.

Everything I do on this forum is my free time but I can help answer questions since Brad seems quite busy these days - glad to help out.

Thanks for the quick response :)

Ok so it's not like the DMM would get damaged or get a reduced lifetime if it the air inlet is always blocked, you just have to accept the drift while blocked, correct?

About the hum, it's actually the more recent version that is louder (5/2019), can I check somehow if the fix was applied or not? (both are still in warranty)
I don't like sending it and getting the same back after weeks. (since there is no hum spec, I can't say "out of spec")

edit: since you are Analog Design, is this a known issue at Keithley?

Thanks
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 09:57:35 pm by KedasProbe »
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Offline E-Design

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #789 on: November 21, 2019, 10:49:14 pm »
Some comments

FAN - Blocking up entirely is probably not a good idea for the life of the product. Behind the front panel display, there is a digital processor area that gets quite hot. A little bit of air movement in the front of the unit behind the display goes a long way for cooling that area. So if you can muffle the audible noise a little bit while still permitting some air flow it likely wont have a significant impact on the long term reliability - maybe it only degrades measurements a little bit for you.

XFORMER HUM - To check if the corrective action is in place properly, requires some disassembly. In general, that voids your warranty (and likely the calibration) so please consider that. If your unit is disassembled to that point anyhow, you could just fix / improve the issue yourself if you wanted to save the hassle.

MULTI-MEASURE bug - If I understood correctly what the video was showing (when going to 100V or 1kV range), then yes its a known hardware issue that will be resolved on the next revision.


For application engineering help, please consider posting at https://forum.tek.com/
 
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Offline thm_w

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #790 on: November 21, 2019, 11:31:00 pm »
MULTI-MEASURE bug - If I understood correctly what the video was showing (when going to 100V or 1kV range), then yes its a known hardware issue that will be resolved on the next revision.

Ouch, I wonder if this will be covered under warranty or is at least a mod we can perform ourselves.. thanks for providing information btw.
 

Offline E-Design

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #791 on: November 21, 2019, 11:49:02 pm »
MULTI-MEASURE bug - If I understood correctly what the video was showing (when going to 100V or 1kV range), then yes its a known hardware issue that will be resolved on the next revision.

Ouch, I wonder if this will be covered under warranty or is at least a mod we can perform ourselves.. thanks for providing information btw.

I am unsure about covered under warranty (you will have to contact applications ENG for that) -- I don't recall all the details ATM, I thought it might only be reproduced with open voltage input connections or something along those lines (not a common or normal use case if I am remembering right)
If you could post your setup details and how the issue is causing problems for you, we can assist in finding a workaround that could be satisfactory for you. In any case, I think the issue is logged in our system.

For application engineering help, please consider posting at https://forum.tek.com/
 
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #792 on: November 22, 2019, 12:09:20 am »
Hi All, long time lurker..

I can confirm, there is no officially sanctioned way to turn the fan off.
The specs (under all operating conditions) require the little bit of air movement inside the instrument.

Welcome to the forum.
I was wondering... what happened to Brad?

In my case, I do not consider my DMM6500 noisy at all.

Are there some more noisy than others?
Is the fan speed not regulated by temperature?
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Offline E-Design

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #793 on: November 22, 2019, 12:45:32 am »
As far as FAN audible noise, there is some slight variation from unit to unit (per a sound room dB measurement) - However, as you might expect whether or not any given user can hear it or is bothered by it has *alot* to do with the ambient noise in their vicinity, their location (how close they are to the instrument) and actually their age / how well they can hear. Then on top of that, whether the noise is "bothersome" is entirely subjective. So as a result, we see groups of users who can hear it and are bothered by it, groups who hear it but don't mind since its fairly "quiet",  while others cant even hear it at all. We designed it to be as quiet as possible while still providing enough cooling ensuring good stable measurements/spec. We are well aware people don't like fans and take the user feedback very seriously when we consider designing one into an instrument. :)

The fan does not regulate temperature (nor does temperature turn on the fan) - It just runs all the time. The precision analog circuits are more sensitive to variation in air currents (local temperature instability) than they are variation in overall temperature. The airflow design strives to cool only hot insensitive areas (digital / display / power regs ) while keeping the analog measurement hardware at a stable temperature with a minimum of air current variation.

Brad is around - just crazy busy. I'm sure we can get a hold of him if need be.


« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 01:13:37 am by E-Design »
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Offline JxR

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #794 on: November 22, 2019, 12:49:42 am »
MULTI-MEASURE bug - If I understood correctly what the video was showing (when going to 100V or 1kV range), then yes its a known hardware issue that will be resolved on the next revision.

Ouch, I wonder if this will be covered under warranty or is at least a mod we can perform ourselves.. thanks for providing information btw.

I am unsure about covered under warranty (you will have to contact applications ENG for that) -- I don't recall all the details ATM, I thought it might only be reproduced with open voltage input connections or something along those lines (not a common or normal use case if I am remembering right)
If you could post your setup details and how the issue is causing problems for you, we can assist in finding a workaround that could be satisfactory for you. In any case, I think the issue is logged in our system.

I know I wrote about this problem directly to Brad, made a video of my setup for him, and posted on the Tek support forums.  No one ever contacted me again.  Brad completely dropped off the forum after I brought this to his attention.  So, based on how Keithley has previously handled this issue I'm not exactly hopeful anything will be done.  I would certainly love to be proven wrong though.
 

Offline E-Design

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #795 on: November 22, 2019, 01:13:07 am »
JxR - sorry to hear you didnt get contacted again to get a satisfactory result to your issue. I'll "remind" some guys about this to close the loop with you. I dont follow the Tek forums (where you posted)  as they seem to not be as active as this place. However, the Tek forums are the "official" place to document the reports / ask questions so you did the right thing.
For application engineering help, please consider posting at https://forum.tek.com/
 

Offline JxR

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #796 on: November 22, 2019, 02:48:14 am »
JxR - sorry to hear you didnt get contacted again to get a satisfactory result to your issue. I'll "remind" some guys about this to close the loop with you. I dont follow the Tek forums (where you posted)  as they seem to not be as active as this place. However, the Tek forums are the "official" place to document the reports / ask questions so you did the right thing.

Everyone here, myself included, is very happy to see Keithley back on the forum.  I hope you will continue to stay and engage with your customers.

I know you were not involved with that particular finding months ago.  Although just to be clear, 99% of the discussion was here on this forum (and through private messages between Brad and myself).  I only posted a single time to the Tek forum as a last resort once Brad stopped posting here. 

Your post earlier today is the first official response on the subject that any of us have heard. For myself, I would love to know if existing customers will have their units repaired/replaced under warranty now that the hardware is known to be at fault.
 

Offline TiN

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #797 on: November 22, 2019, 03:00:54 am »
Perhaps it's something to do with fact that 100V/1kV ranges use high voltage divider on the front end, but lower ranges are high impedance input.

I'm also happy to see Keithley back in this thread.  :-+
May not look like much, but it does mean a lot to T&M community and loyal Keithley fans like myself.

Private messages / emails / phone calls to support are great for urgent issues, but for normal feedback process forum is a great way, as all owners can follow up the thread, instead of spending time (both user's and support team's) over similar/same topics.
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Offline Wintel

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #798 on: November 22, 2019, 03:39:45 am »
MULTI-MEASURE bug - If I understood correctly what the video was showing (when going to 100V or 1kV range), then yes its a known hardware issue that will be resolved on the next revision.

This known hardware issue will be fixed by a firmware revision?
 

Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #799 on: November 22, 2019, 09:51:55 am »
Some comments
MULTI-MEASURE bug - If I understood correctly what the video was showing (when going to 100V or 1kV range), then yes its a known hardware issue that will be resolved on the next revision.
Personally I'm not so worried about this 36mV jump (on 100V range) to 2.4V, 2.4V is not present on the terminal (it's still 36mV)  (the voltage terminals were not floating, 50ohm)

Maybe you can shine some light on the limitations of MULTI-MEASURE of voltage and current (excluding the 100V range bug)
In this thread we checked other DMMs (not Keithley) and also much more expensive DMMs and they all have this xx mV reading when running 1A through the device.
So that seems to be a common thing to happen, that is how it should work.
But how does Keithley or any other manufacture then say voltage can be measured while current is running through the device?  Seems to me the best you can say is it can be done but then the voltage is completely out of spec.

Anyway it's better to have it and understand what the limitations are than having it disabled.
From what I experience it's rarely a good idea to do both on one device hence why I don't really worry about the 100V range bug.

One other question: to request software improvements or report bugs what is the best way to do it so the info gets to a place were it will be logged and read by the software developers?
Although the https://forum.tek.com/ forum seem to be the place, it doesn't seem to be read by Keithley.
(I would expect at least an "We look into it" reply within a few weeks when a bug is posted)

Thanks
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 10:12:12 am by KedasProbe »
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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