Author Topic: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510  (Read 93452 times)

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Offline thm_w

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« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 10:10:45 pm by thm_w »
 

Offline Bugsyson

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #826 on: November 29, 2019, 12:06:43 am »
Looks like us Canadians will have to wait, till after the US long weekend.
 

Offline gamalot

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #827 on: November 29, 2019, 10:17:38 am »
Looks like us Canadians will have to wait, till after the US long weekend.

I can download it in Australia without any problem.  :)
 

Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #828 on: November 29, 2019, 11:30:01 am »
Some quick first impressions:
- The values on graphs still are not made for humans!
(in manual mode give us more step settings than 1,10,100,etc for Y-axis if you can't program it right, like 1,2,5,10, etc. or just give us Ymin and Ymax to set via script I can figure out to make it right)
- Average Y between cursors on display is not using the buffer values but the screen resolution values. (result changes when you zoom in/out)
- I got a blue screen when pressing 'analog edge trigger' in the graph menu, I cannot reproduce it.
(haven't played with the buffer sizes yet)

- There is a "measure config list" added, to group your measure settings, so you don't have to make a script for it.
Looks nice and more convenient, you can also check the settings before using it.

I didn't notice any other obvious changes (some font spacing fixed.)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 12:57:23 pm by KedasProbe »
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #829 on: November 29, 2019, 05:20:53 pm »
My first quick impression of the new firmware v1.7 for the DMM7510 and DMM6500:

1. Much better vertical graph scaling readability
2. Menu structure and positioning of touch screen keys are much more equal between DMM6500 and DMM7510

This seems to be a very good firmware update so far.
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Offline JxR

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #830 on: November 30, 2019, 08:45:21 am »
Is that very last pic really from the DMM6500?  Seems like it gained a digit of resolution.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #831 on: November 30, 2019, 10:08:21 am »
Here are 3 more screen shots from the DMM6500 (ENTER+HOME)

I really like the way they have made the menus and graphical layouts between the DMM6500 and DMM7510 the same now.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 10:10:22 am by HighVoltage »
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #832 on: November 30, 2019, 02:00:34 pm »
I had the DMM6500 hooked up to a very stable LTZ1000A output.
The problem that was noticed before, with a sudden jump in the graph is still happening.

So, most likely this is a hardware problem and can not be solved in the firmware?



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Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #833 on: November 30, 2019, 02:16:28 pm »
The jumps look a little like the "normal" level of popcorn noise from a LM399 reference.
So chances are high this is a limitation of the hardware. Besides the reference also resistors could produce a similar noise. The DMM6500 is sold as a 6 digit meter after all and not for 7 digit performance.
 

Offline E-Design

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #834 on: November 30, 2019, 03:10:51 pm »
I work on the product analog design for Keithley.

Hi dear E-Design !

Please look this hardware bug(that bug is not a analog design problem, but looks very closer):

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg2607264/#msg2607264

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg2607786/#msg2607786

Thanks, I'll check into it.
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Offline E-Design

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #835 on: November 30, 2019, 03:20:38 pm »
The jumps look a little like the "normal" level of popcorn noise from a LM399 reference.
So chances are high this is a limitation of the hardware. Besides the reference also resistors could produce a similar noise. The DMM6500 is sold as a 6 digit meter after all and not for 7 digit performance.

Agree, it might be the 399 --- though I dont think I've seen it jump for that long of a time period before. When I get my loaner back, I can try this as well see what it looks like. I assume this data was taken in a very temperature stable environment with care taken with the cables and connections as well.
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #836 on: November 30, 2019, 04:03:33 pm »

Agree, it might be the 399 --- though I dont think I've seen it jump for that long of a time period before. When I get my loaner back, I can try this as well see what it looks like. I assume this data was taken in a very temperature stable environment with care taken with the cables and connections as well.



Yes, temperature was very stable in my lab and I used metrology grade PTFE cables.
Thanks for looking in to this.
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Online HendriXML

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #837 on: November 30, 2019, 10:48:31 pm »
I did some experiments with an fixed cold side junction temp (about 40°C). The results seem to show that it works, even with a very cheap thermo couple.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/diy-cold-junction-compensation-on-a-dmm6500/msg2808948/#msg2808948

The setup can be improved a lot, but I like the idea that it is possible to do thermocouple measurements with CJC this way.
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Offline Wintel

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #838 on: December 01, 2019, 07:42:15 pm »
I had the DMM6500 hooked up to a very stable LTZ1000A output.
The problem that was noticed before, with a sudden jump in the graph is still happening.

So, most likely this is a hardware problem and can not be solved in the firmware?

Have you try to connect another DMM (34470A / 34465A) to the LTZ1000A at the same time?

It is easy to see that the sudden jump is only happen in the DMM6500.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #839 on: December 01, 2019, 08:35:48 pm »
I had the DMM6500 hooked up to a very stable LTZ1000A output.
The problem that was noticed before, with a sudden jump in the graph is still happening.

So, most likely this is a hardware problem and can not be solved in the firmware?

Have you try to connect another DMM (34470A / 34465A) to the LTZ1000A at the same time?

It is easy to see that the sudden jump is only happen in the DMM6500.

Yes, these sudden jumps only show up on the DMM6500
Other DMM in parallel that I tested, like the 34470A / 34465A will not show this.
So, it is for sure related to the DMM6500
Also, the Keithley DMM7510 does not show this phenomenon.
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Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #840 on: December 01, 2019, 09:00:42 pm »
The 34465 uses the same type of LM399 reference. So similar jumps are expected for this meter too - but of cause not correlated and possibly at a different rate. Not all LM399 must behave the same, but I would still expect some popcorn type noise. There may be different levels of selection for the references.
 

Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #841 on: December 02, 2019, 12:26:02 pm »
Hi,

On my second unit (at work) the firmware update failed:
I did return to firmware 1.0.04b and it looks like it works ok now. (although not sure)

During the firmware update I got error: 2305

Rebooting after the failed update I got  error: 1149

P.S. I submitted an official support ticket.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 01:34:36 pm by KedasProbe »
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
[W. Bruce Cameron]
 

Offline E-Design

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #842 on: December 02, 2019, 11:01:07 pm »
I work on the product analog design for Keithley.

Hi dear E-Design !

Please look this hardware bug(that bug is not a analog design problem, but looks very closer):

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg2607264/#msg2607264

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg2607786/#msg2607786

Thanks, I'll check into it.

Here is what I found out.

The rack kit was updated for the shorter screw size shortly after the 65xx was released. So some early ones that were purchased did have the wrong screw size.

I found out it is a known problem.

However, it is NOT a safety problem at all. It was reviewed extensively and pretty much the user cannot create an unsafe situation with the long screw, even though its not the correct size.
If it was a safety problem, your instrument or kit would have been recalled - there should be no worry about that.

I think the only update you need to make the kit right is the screws. If you PM your details, I can pass along to someone who will send you the right screws.

For application engineering help, please consider posting at https://forum.tek.com/
 

Offline E-Design

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #843 on: December 02, 2019, 11:04:02 pm »
Hi,

On my second unit (at work) the firmware update failed:
I did return to firmware 1.0.04b and it looks like it works ok now. (although not sure)

During the firmware update I got error: 2305

Rebooting after the failed update I got  error: 1149

P.S. I submitted an official support ticket.

So is it alive again? I always thought an FPGA programming failure bricked the unit. I'll ask about it.
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #844 on: December 03, 2019, 09:36:31 am »

So is it alive again? I always thought an FPGA programming failure bricked the unit. I'll ask about it.
Yes it is working again,  (on the older firmware)
Apparently an AFPGA init failure doesn't brick it. (how many FPGA's are there?)
It will contain the previous version in it so it's not like it's not working.
Although I'm not sure if the downgrade worked as it should, I didn't get an error during downgrade though.
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
[W. Bruce Cameron]
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #845 on: December 03, 2019, 09:42:20 am »
I don't think the FPGA will still have the old code as a backup. One could be lucky that at least the part for communication and upgrade (kind of boot-loader equivalent) worked.  A possible error scenario could also be that the upgrade of one FPGA did not run at all and the errors are due to not compatible versions / failed verify . In this case the way back has a good chance to work.
 

Offline MegaVolt

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #846 on: December 03, 2019, 11:08:05 am »
how many FPGA's are there?
Judging by the photos, the device has 2 FPGA:
1. Spartan 6. (Presumably an exchange between two processors, an exchange with memory, digitizing, etc. ...)
2. Actel ProASIC3 (management of multislope ADC, maybe some other tasks.)

The analog most likely is called the second FPGA.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #847 on: December 03, 2019, 07:29:30 pm »
The jumps look a little like the "normal" level of popcorn noise from a LM399 reference.
So chances are high this is a limitation of the hardware. Besides the reference also resistors could produce a similar noise. The DMM6500 is sold as a 6 digit meter after all and not for 7 digit performance.

Here are pictures from today.
The DMM6500 and the 34465A in parallel hooked up to a stable 10V reference.
There are no jumps to notice at the 34465A
But always some jumps with the DMM6500

Both instruments set to 1 NPLC, no filter, Auto Zero ON



 

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Online HendriXML

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #848 on: December 03, 2019, 08:39:10 pm »
It wouldn't surprise me if theses where ADC (DNL?) errors, specific to your device's ADC. In that case it may happen only on specific voltages when several bits overflow, exaggerating an analog rise/fall.
But comparing both brands is hard on those pics, the DMM6500 has what looks to be a stronger zoom on the signal.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 08:50:17 pm by HendriXML »
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Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #849 on: December 03, 2019, 09:25:52 pm »
The Level of the jumps is about what is expected for an average LM399 - so it would be a surprise not to find it. Not all units are the same and the 34465 may have a slightly better selected ref. or just luck. The graph as shown does not have enough zoom to show the noise - there are just a few indication visible. The relatively slow popcorn noise would probably get more visible at 10 PLC.
 


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