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Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: klaus11 on February 22, 2018, 08:25:19 pm

Title: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: klaus11 on February 22, 2018, 08:25:19 pm
I found this multimeter at Farnell, On request. Any opinion or information about it.

(http://es.farnell.com/productimages/standard/en_GB/2840447-40.jpg)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500
Post by: trevwhite on February 22, 2018, 11:17:19 pm
Yeah I saw that but very little information available about it or when it is available.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500
Post by: klaus11 on February 22, 2018, 11:38:33 pm
Yes, but strange information; weight 5.5 Kg and declare an access button to facilitate navigation, which does not appear in the image.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500
Post by: TiN on February 23, 2018, 02:28:12 am
C'mon, where is DMM8520 already ?  ;D I'm hodling on 2002's though.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500
Post by: JanJansen on February 23, 2018, 02:40:56 am
In Farnell Russian site its under 1000€.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500
Post by: klaus11 on February 23, 2018, 03:33:25 am
Preliminary specifications Farnell is like a rehash of Tek DMM4050 and FLuke 8846.

The minimum range 10µA is at a disadvantage with 1µA of Keysight 34465A.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500
Post by: klaus11 on February 23, 2018, 03:41:22 am
C'mon, where is DMM8520 already ?  ;D I'm hodling on 2002's though.


You will lose less years eliminating the noise of the DMM7510, the 8.5 Digits?  :-\
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500
Post by: MadTux on February 23, 2018, 04:07:49 am
I'm hodling on 2002's though.
The VFD of older Keithley instruments looks much better than the modern LCD stuff. Also much more easy to repair and  more robust. I'll stick with older LED/VFD Keithleys, too. The internal FPGA/softcore madness of the Fluke 8846 is ugly, don't really need that in my lab, the graphical VFD is kinda nice though.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500
Post by: TiN on February 23, 2018, 04:11:01 am
8.5d metrology meters aren't supposed to be looked at. Sadly NFP versions of meters are usually priced MORE than regular ones.  :wtf:
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500
Post by: FransW on February 24, 2018, 12:30:55 am
Gents, see:

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/digital-multimeters/8493832/

Frans
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500
Post by: klaus11 on February 24, 2018, 12:33:06 am
Keithley DMM7510  :-//
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: klaus11 on March 05, 2018, 08:30:37 pm
And now DAQ6510 appears on a website from Finland.
DAQ6510 is an acquisition multimeter system

(http://tekfinland.fi/media/catalog/product/cache/3/image/500x333/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/d/a/daq6510_front.jpg)

Date Web: http://tekfinland.fi/tuotteet/uusimmat-tuoteuutuudet/keithley-daq6510-dmm-kytkinyksikko.html (http://tekfinland.fi/tuotteet/uusimmat-tuoteuutuudet/keithley-daq6510-dmm-kytkinyksikko.html)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on March 06, 2018, 02:08:58 am
And now DAQ6510 appears on a website from Finland.
DAQ6510 is an acquisition multimeter system

Interesting that it is only listed in Finland.
I can not find any other specs anywhere.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: klaus11 on March 06, 2018, 04:59:01 pm
Yes, I have downloaded catalog 2018 TEK / KEI, and there is nothing new in Keithley.
Two ghosts Keithley.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: klaus11 on March 13, 2018, 02:59:10 am
DMM6500. Datasheet :

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2585589.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2585589.pdf)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: htassell on March 16, 2018, 09:42:04 pm
I wound up ordering one of these for work the other day - anticipated shipping date: 25/6/2018.... :-\
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on March 16, 2018, 10:50:42 pm
I wound up ordering one of these for work the other day - anticipated shipping date: 25/6/2018.... :-\
How did you find an ordering link?
And how much was it?

It looks like a really promising 6 1/2 digit meter.
I was thinking of getting a second DMM7500, may be I will get one of these DMM6500 first.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: htassell on March 17, 2018, 11:36:08 am
I ordered it from Element14 Australia. It was AUD$1,475 I think

For the price, it had the right feature set I need including multiplexing.

http://au.element14.com/keithley/dmm6500/digital-multimeter-bench-6-5-digit/dp/2840447 (http://au.element14.com/keithley/dmm6500/digital-multimeter-bench-6-5-digit/dp/2840447)

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: drummerdimitri on March 17, 2018, 12:40:44 pm
I'm in the market for a new bench DMM and the DMM6500 looks like my next purchase.

Where can I find it online to ship to my country?  :-//
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: klaus11 on March 17, 2018, 04:56:21 pm
We will have to wait for the real Datasheet, the document contributed by Farnell is only "Application Notes". It does not say anything about ACAL either.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: quarks on March 21, 2018, 09:49:40 pm
looks interesting
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: TAMHAN on March 22, 2018, 02:53:52 am
I've had it in my hand yesterday, didnt particularly like the screen resolution and felt the screen "sponged away" when touched.

Also shot a little video which I will add here soonish...
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Krampmeier on March 22, 2018, 07:23:52 am
I have been using an engineering sample of the 6500 for a couple of weeks now, and I really do like it. I also noticed that the screen "sponges away" a little bit, but other than that, the look&feel is very nice. The screen resolution is a little bit higher than it is on the 7510, as the screen is a bit higher. It is also much clearer, and the touch interface works very well.
After playing with this new meter for a couple of hours, going back to a 2000 series device feels weird. We are all used to the VFDs, but the LCD really does have a lot of advantages. The data logging alone, with the intuitive scrolling and zooming and a huge memory, would be enough to justify the upgrade in many cases. Another neat feature is that you can upload scripts to the meter which also change the UI and add special functionality. That seems to be very powerful. It also has a very good virtual frontpanel via LAN, which is quite useful for remote debugging.

I noticed that the 6500 also shows very low noise, and the (preliminary) specs look very good (better than all the Keysight 6.5 digit meters). As far as I understand it, It does not need ACAL to get full accuracy, and does not have it.

I don't think I should share the photos of the inside or the pricing information for Europe yet, but in my opinion, it will be a no-brainer when you have to decide between the 6.5 digit universal multimeters currently on the market.

There are still some minor firmware issues which Keithley is working on at the moment. The design team has been very responsive to feedback and suggestions during the last weeks, so I suppose they'll iron those problems out before the meter hits the market in Europe. The only thing that I still worry about is that the time required for measurement function changes is much longer than it was for the 2000 and 2010. No big deal for bench use though.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: thm_w on March 22, 2018, 07:27:50 am
DMM6500. Datasheet :

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2585589.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2585589.pdf)

Good to see ethernet standard, even if they got it backwards  :D
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Krampmeier on March 22, 2018, 07:29:33 am
Quote
You will lose less years eliminating the noise of the DMM7510, the 8.5 Digits?

I am not sure what you mean with that... Are you saying the 7510 is particularly noisy? This is true in the 100 mV - 10 V ranges when it is set to 10 MOhm input impedance. When you set it to "Auto" impedance (10 GOhm), it has rather low noise.
Keithley knows about this problem, and they will likely fix it with a new firmware (which will change the signal path switching in the meter).

The 6500 does not suffer from that problem.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: sstepane on March 22, 2018, 07:31:32 am
If it will provide (as it seems) PC software (and for digitizer function) - it will be another brick on 34465a DMMs grave. As opposing to now not free anymore BenchVue, which is also known for it's bulky and buggy style.
However there always will be an amount of people, which would prefer physical buttons for functions.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: insine on March 22, 2018, 11:07:08 am
Does it have a fan?
It seems there is a soft power button, how does it work? Does it boot fast?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Krampmeier on March 22, 2018, 04:31:28 pm
Yes, it has a fan. It is rather quite, but noticable (and a bit annoying) in a quiet office. I did not notice a dust filter in the prototype.

The soft power button just toggels the power when pressed. It must be pressed for a moment before something happens. When the instrument is power cycled externally, it goes back into the power state it had when the supply was interrupted.

The boot time of the unit here is about 16 seconds.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: maxwell3e10 on March 22, 2018, 04:40:59 pm
It will be interesting to see if they fix the autozero problem that causes excessive noise on 10-100 sec time scale, which was present in both DMM7510 and 2002 meters. And hopefully the software will be less prone to crashes.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on March 22, 2018, 07:00:51 pm
I have been using an engineering sample of the 6500 for a couple of weeks now, and I really do like it. I also noticed that the screen "sponges away" a little bit, but other than that, the look&feel is very nice. The screen resolution is a little bit higher than it is on the 7510, as the screen is a bit higher. It is also much clearer, and the touch interface works very well.
After playing with this new meter for a couple of hours, going back to a 2000 series device feels weird. We are all used to the VFDs, but the LCD really does have a lot of advantages. The data logging alone, with the intuitive scrolling and zooming and a huge memory, would be enough to justify the upgrade in many cases. Another neat feature is that you can upload scripts to the meter which also change the UI and add special functionality. That seems to be very powerful. It also has a very good virtual frontpanel via LAN, which is quite useful for remote debugging.

I noticed that the 6500 also shows very low noise, and the (preliminary) specs look very good (better than all the Keysight 6.5 digit meters). As far as I understand it, It does not need ACAL to get full accuracy, and does not have it.

I don't think I should share the photos of the inside or the pricing information for Europe yet, but in my opinion, it will be a no-brainer when you have to decide between the 6.5 digit universal multimeters currently on the market.

There are still some minor firmware issues which Keithley is working on at the moment. The design team has been very responsive to feedback and suggestions during the last weeks, so I suppose they'll iron those problems out before the meter hits the market in Europe. The only thing that I still worry about is that the time required for measurement function changes is much longer than it was for the 2000 and 2010. No big deal for bench use though.

Nice first impression, thank you!
The 7510 does have an ACAL but it is really not needed.
Every time I have used it, it may changed the last digit by one digit only and was spot on with my 3458A
So, I would expect that Keithley has used the same technology in the 6500
Both my 34470A on the other hand, have developed an ACAL offset over time, that seems not to be fixable.

I am really looking forward of getting one of these 6500 Keithley, once all the small issues have been solved.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: klaus11 on March 22, 2018, 07:07:59 pm
I noticed that the 6500 also shows very low noise, and the (preliminary) specs look very good (better than all the Keysight 6.5 digit meters). As far as I understand it, It does not need ACAL to get full accuracy, and does not have it.


"better than all the Keysight 6.5 digit meters" optimism in the morning. "not need ACAL" This is very good.
 Keysight has many reasons to be worried, also for the price: 980 EUR + taxes.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on March 23, 2018, 03:04:26 am
The DMM7510 seems to uses some temperature measurement and numerical corrections (this can be seen during warm up). This can to a certain degree reduce the TC, if done for the different ranges. So they may not need ACAL to get the overall low TC. However this can not compensate for long time resistor drift. Having an automatic cal function could reduce the number of long time stable dividers / resistors and maybe reduce long time drift (e.g. beyond the usual cal cycle) if just a few, higher grade resistors are used.

Even if there is no explicit ACAL cycle, there could be some hidden, e.g. when changing rages.  So the longer time it takes to change the function might be just a hidden partial ACAL function for the new selected function.

If done well, the ACAL way could give additional confidence, as drift of dividers could be noticed and it could work as a good and stringent internal self test. With sufficiently low noise of the ADC and amplifier ACAL can be relatively fast, especially if only 6 digit accuracy is aimed for. Usually the noise level is not that much lower in the high end meters, so they might need considerably longer to get the extra accuracy.
For a modern meter of this grade I would expect it to have some internal cal check and maybe adjustment. For a more normal use they might not need to make ACAL transparent to the user - for metrology use this would be requited.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on March 23, 2018, 04:10:22 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql78V1fFquM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql78V1fFquM)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: drummerdimitri on March 23, 2018, 10:26:12 am
I am very interested in this unit but I am not sure if this will do over a 7510.

The reason why I ask is because I want to get that extra digit at higher voltages to measure the natural discharge rate of supercapacitors and batteries.

Is this a 2000000 count meter? Will I need a 7510 or will this suffice for my requirements?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: kj7e on March 23, 2018, 10:38:59 am
Is this a 2000000 count meter? Will I need a 7510 or will this suffice for my requirements?

No, this would be a 1,200,000 count meter.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Krampmeier on March 24, 2018, 04:19:03 am
I am very interested in this unit but I am not sure if this will do over a 7510.

The reason why I ask is because I want to get that extra digit at higher voltages to measure the natural discharge rate of supercapacitors and batteries.

Is this a 2000000 count meter? Will I need a 7510 or will this suffice for my requirements?

Kj7e is right about the counts.

You could just connect a stable voltage source in series to your battery / capacitor, with opposite polarity, so that you can use a lower range on your DMM. Maybe one of the LTZ1000 boards described in the metrology forum, or just an off-the-shelf calibrator...

If the 10 GOhm input resistance (up to 10 V) or the 10 MOhm input resistance (above 10 V) are a problem in your application, or the bias current bothers you, you may want to have a look at the Keithley Electrometers.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Big Ben on March 26, 2018, 08:43:26 pm
Delivery will be Mid April at the latest
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: sibeen on March 26, 2018, 10:39:15 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql78V1fFquM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql78V1fFquM)

"The fucker has a touch screen"

ROFL. Well done Mike :)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Dr.Trinity on March 27, 2018, 06:57:23 am
This new Keithley DMM looks very promising
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on April 02, 2018, 09:01:02 pm
 New documents.

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2607096.pdf?_ga=2.109722629.1255162927.1522665742-1348294533.1519212668 (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2607096.pdf?_ga=2.109722629.1255162927.1522665742-1348294533.1519212668)
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2607097.pdf?_ga=2.109722629.1255162927.1522665742-1348294533.1519212668 (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2607097.pdf?_ga=2.109722629.1255162927.1522665742-1348294533.1519212668)

 I think that the "soft" screen has its advantages - it's hard to destroy.

 The device is very attractive. Can someone give an alternative?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: maxwell3e10 on April 03, 2018, 02:47:25 am
It has zero RMS noise according to the datasheet! Attractive indeed!

Measurement Rate    DCV RMS Noise Uncertainty
in NPLCs                  (in % of range + fixed base)
5                                                    0
1                                                    0
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on April 03, 2018, 04:41:41 am
The 0 for the noise number just means the noise is lower than the 6.5 Digit resolution. It could even be just so low that it does not increase the uncertainty (10-30 ppm range) by much.  Getting noise well below 1 ppm at 1 PLC is nice but not yet that special. I would expect a noise level not much higher than with the DMM7510, about on par with the competing Keysight 3446x meters.

Chances are high to still see the extra noise bump in the 0.1-0.01 Hz range. Would be a nice surprise if Keithley finally fixed this problem that might date back to the 196 or so.

A nice feature might be specs for a 2 year cal cycle. This kind of indicates no special new parts are used, but more like well tested technology.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: maxwell3e10 on April 03, 2018, 05:30:07 am
I was being sarcastic, of course. They should have said "additional rms noise"
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: pmcouto on April 17, 2018, 09:49:50 pm
DMM6500 is now available from Farnell (EU) and I just bought one!

Should receive it tomorrow.   ;D
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Smokey on April 18, 2018, 04:15:26 am
url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql78V1fFquM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql78V1fFquM[/url]

"The fucker has a touch screen"

ROFL. Well done Mike :)
HA!  I was just about to make the exact same post...


So is this the long awaited update to the 2000 series... FINALLY!!!!  I'm not sure what the hell they were waiting for here.  If this was out a couple years ago when I needed some new bench meters for a test setup I would have probably specced one in.
1,197.74 US Dollars is almost exactly what they were still charging for a new 2000.

The fast sampling and storage is pretty attractive.  The frequency of stuff I'm typically looking at is in the kHz anyway so it could almost be a substitute for a scope in most cases.  I'm a little confused by the spec through.  The data sheet 1st page lists "1MS/sec digitizer" but later on in the Typical Read Rates, DC Functions section is says it can only do a max of 20600 readings per second at the lowest PLC. 

Drop in migration guide from 2000 to DMM6500 = http://download.tek.com/manual/077146600_DMM6500.pdf (http://download.tek.com/manual/077146600_DMM6500.pdf)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Eric_S on April 18, 2018, 03:06:04 pm
I'm a little confused by the spec through.  The data sheet 1st page lists "1MS/sec digitizer" but later on in the Typical Read Rates, DC Functions section is says it can only do a max of 20600 readings per second at the lowest PLC.

It's got two measurement paths. The 1MS/s is for the 16bit (probably delta-sigma) ADC, the 20,6kS/s is for the high resolution path (I forget what the technique is called).
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: kj7e on April 19, 2018, 12:49:01 am
DMM6500 is now available from Farnell (EU) and I just bought one!

Should receive it tomorrow.   ;D

Be sure to post some photos and give your thoughts.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: drummerdimitri on April 19, 2018, 06:42:00 am
I am really curious as to whether or not it can do power and energy measurements using four wires. If it can I'm sold!
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: thm_w on April 19, 2018, 08:06:00 am
I am really curious as to whether or not it can do power and energy measurements using four wires. If it can I'm sold!

I don't see it explicitly stated anywhere that there is a "power" mode, but you can measure voltage and current at the same time for sure. Check reference manual page 184.
Calculations may have to be done with scripts written yourself. It would also be 3 wire not 4 wire, as the ground is shared.

From the manual, it sounds like if you are doing simultaneous current/voltage at 1Ms/s it would be 4.5 digit:
Quote
The DMM6500 digitize functions make fast, predictably spaced measurements. The speed, sensitivity, and bandwidth of the digitize functions allows you to make accurate voltage and current
readings of fast signals, such as those associated with sensors, audio, medical devices, power line issues, and industrial processes. The digitize functions can provide 1,000,000 readings per second at 4½ digits. Digitize voltage and digitize current have separate internal signal paths that are optimized for fast response to signal changes.

Possible concern if you were using the higher res mode it might have to switch a relay every measurement? Or at the very least your measurement speed would be in half:
Quote
The DMM6500 allows you to make and display two measurements from different functions. The measurements are displayed on the front panel and stored in the reading buffers.
Depending on the selected functions, a relay may click when the instrument switches between the measurement types. Leaving secondary measurements on for extended periods may shorten the life of the relays.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: drummerdimitri on April 19, 2018, 08:25:15 am
I am really curious as to whether or not it can do power and energy measurements using four wires. If it can I'm sold!

I don't see it explicitly stated anywhere that there is a "power" mode, but you can measure voltage and current at the same time for sure. Check reference manual page 184.
Calculations may have to be done with scripts written yourself. It would also be 3 wire not 4 wire, as the ground is shared.

From the manual, it sounds like if you are doing simultaneous current/voltage at 1Ms/s it would be 4.5 digit:
Quote
The DMM6500 digitize functions make fast, predictably spaced measurements. The speed, sensitivity, and bandwidth of the digitize functions allows you to make accurate voltage and current
readings of fast signals, such as those associated with sensors, audio, medical devices, power line issues, and industrial processes. The digitize functions can provide 1,000,000 readings per second at 4½ digits. Digitize voltage and digitize current have separate internal signal paths that are optimized for fast response to signal changes.

Possible concern if you were using the higher res mode it might have to switch a relay every measurement? Or at the very least your measurement speed would be in half:
Quote
The DMM6500 allows you to make and display two measurements from different functions. The measurements are displayed on the front panel and stored in the reading buffers.
Depending on the selected functions, a relay may click when the instrument switches between the measurement types. Leaving secondary measurements on for extended periods may shorten the life of the relays.

Thanks for the input.

I forgot about the relay switching between voltage and current measurments.

This would definitely not be the right instrument for energy measurments.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on April 19, 2018, 09:07:29 am
New official video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGomkSmtYFk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGomkSmtYFk)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on April 19, 2018, 09:09:42 am
And an application video on:

Get the Best Low Resistance Measurements Possible

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNwoAux252Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNwoAux252Y)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: kj7e on April 20, 2018, 12:41:12 am
Updated USA Tektronix/Keithley web page, starting MSRP $1,140;
https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500 (https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500)

All related DMM6500 available downloads;
https://www.tek.com/search?keywords=dmm6500 (https://www.tek.com/search?keywords=dmm6500)

Someone needs to do a side by side comparison of the DMM6500 and Keysight 34465A.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: olkipukki on April 23, 2018, 04:46:51 pm
Yes, it has a fan. It is rather quite, but noticable (and a bit annoying) in a quiet office. I did not notice a dust filter in the prototype.


What about bzzzzzzzzzzz sound when the unit is off?  :-BROKE
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: sstepane on April 25, 2018, 05:35:55 am
All Farnell stock is gone on DMM6500 in just a week and no reviews/videos/impressions... Just curious while waiting for a delivery.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: olkipukki on April 25, 2018, 09:16:31 am
Yes, it has a fan. It is rather quite, but noticable (and a bit annoying) in a quiet office. I did not notice a dust filter in the prototype.


What about bzzzzzzzzzzz sound when the unit is off?  :-BROKE

Is there somebody got this DMM6500?
My unit is keep making a transformer noise...when is off...  :wtf:
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: pmcouto on April 25, 2018, 08:01:06 pm
My DMM6500, bought from Farnell April 17th, was finally delivered yesterday.

Apart from unboxing and turning it on, I didn’t have the chance to fully test the new meter.
I also have a DMM7510 and a 2450, so I’m already familiar with the user interface and I should say I’m a huge fan. Comparing with the other instruments with this UI, I could see a few subtle changes in DMM6500 UI.
As this meter supports a MUX card, there are some new menu items for this functionality. Although I didn’t test it, it seems very easy to manage MUX channels and create a scan script for data acquisition.
There are also some new menu items (and a front panel button) dedicated to apps. Some demo apps come preloaded in the instrument. 

My first impressions (no serious performance test performed so far):
This is a very nice 6.5 digit meter and a “killer” at this price (under 1,000 Euros).
If there are no performance issues (not expected form a manufacturer such as Keithley), this is probably the best meter on the market in this segment!  :-DMM  :-+

I’ll be traveling the next few days, so away from the lab and unable to play with the new toy…  :'(


Best regards,
Pedro Couto
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: helgel on April 26, 2018, 05:35:20 am
Just got my DMM6500. Added two quick videos that indicate difference in noise and startup time between DMM6500 and Keysight 34461...for those who are interested: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBE6HV-VWdbL9xBSPX-mOKA (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBE6HV-VWdbL9xBSPX-mOKA)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: olkipukki on April 26, 2018, 06:37:30 am
Just got my DMM6500. Added two quick videos that indicate difference in noise and startup time between DMM6500 and Keysight 34461...for those who are interested: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBE6HV-VWdbL9xBSPX-mOKA (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBE6HV-VWdbL9xBSPX-mOKA)

Can you hear any noise coming from DMM6500 when powered off?

You might be quite close to the unit, but very noticeable...  unplug a power cable (quiet) and plug it again (bzzzzz)...  :-BROKE
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: LaurentR on April 26, 2018, 11:30:25 am
Just got my DMM6500. Added two quick videos that indicate difference in noise and startup time between DMM6500 and Keysight 34461...for those who are interested: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBE6HV-VWdbL9xBSPX-mOKA (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBE6HV-VWdbL9xBSPX-mOKA)

Noise-wise from your video, it looks like the sound level is about the same, but the 34461A has a higher pitch whine while the DMM6500 has a broader band swoosh?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: kj7e on April 26, 2018, 11:52:28 am
Sounds like a variable speed fan, that's nice.  Wish the 7510 had that.

Really curious if they implemented the internal temp correction algorithm like on the 7510.  Need to connect the 6500 to a stable voltage reference, power it on and look the the warmup plot.  Also like to see how quickly the 6500 comes to a stable reading.  The 7510 only needs about 2 min for ppm stability.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: helgel on April 26, 2018, 04:19:36 pm
LaurentR: Yes, that's a good description. I was a bit disappointed by the "high pitch whine" when I bought the 34461A. Sounds a bit "cheap". I think I prefer the sound from the DMM6500. I wish there was a "silent" mode where the fan was almost turned off. I could accept reduced measurement accuracy is such a mode.
olkipukki: I can hear some minor transformer "hum" when I keep my ear closer than 10cm from the case. When the power cord is connected but the instrument turned off.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on April 26, 2018, 05:21:35 pm
Time for Dave to look what's reference is inside   :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Faith on April 26, 2018, 09:32:05 pm
Ohh just came across this thread. Looks nice! I sold my 34465A about half a year ago since I don’t really “need” a bench meter and I prefer the mobility of handheld DMM’s as they’re much easier to move around the desk and all... but this looks... tempting!

I just wish it wasn’t so deep though. Per data sheet the DMM6500 is almost 9cm deeper than the 34465A (387mm for the DMM6500 & 303mm for the 34465A.) It’s not a super big difference and this may seem like me nitpicking but some parts of my bench are only 70cm deep due to a pillar... lol.

I think the biggest feature of the DMM6500 that really kills the 34465A is that you don’t have to spend money on stupid software licenses. For the 34465A you only have 50Kpts memory and 5,000Rdgs/sec unless you pay for one option to unlock 2Mpts memory and then ANOTHER to unlock 50,000Rdgs/sec.

And that’s just damn bloody stupid... not to mention they’re expensive options.

So if I were to choose between the DMM6500 and 34465A now it would be the DMM6500 no contest just on the basis that the DMM isn’t artificially gimped by licenses. And I’m saying this as a big Keysight fan girl, almost all my equipment is HPAK. Sorry Keysight.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on April 26, 2018, 11:01:55 pm
Faith, im a faithful fan of fanless fun too   ;D
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: sstepane on April 27, 2018, 02:59:09 am
Hi,

Just received the device. First impressions - loads not as fast as hmc8012, but fast enough. Need to get used to - too manyf settings, buzzer is somewhat strange - not as usual, different and it has some kind of delay - it will sound 1 second regardless of what is going on with continuity, would be nice if Keithley will add setting for its sound and delay. Capacitors measurement is strange - not sure if it is been tested enough on caps that have been soldered on pcb, HMC8012 does caps better. A bit awkward way for making device boot with last settings - have to save a script and store it to "autoexec". Interesting software (KickStart), but you'll have to restart the device after using it - it reconfigures it in some way, so you don't know (if not familiar enough) what to do and where to run for it to behave as usual (triggers, I think).
But overall - nice device, I like it.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: shodan@micron on May 04, 2018, 05:50:40 pm
Unfortunately, Keysight stopped producing my favorite multimeter 34410A.
Now i need install second multimeter to my measurment rack. I have long thought about buying 34465A... but now I found Keithley DMM6500 which  has greater measurement accuracy in datasheet.
In addition, the DMM6500 is cheaper than the 34465A, 6500 has a wider functionality, and the refresh rate of the display is much faster as i see on youtube video.

Also in our country delivery time is too diference:
- DMM6500 delivery time 8-9 week(new, from manufactures, 2018 year callibration)
- 34465A usaly 1-2 week(new, distributor stock, but 2016-2017 year callibration)  :--
- 34465A 10-14 weeks (new, from manufactures, 2018 year callibration)

I love my Keysight instruments, but i think Keithley do more superiorly DMM. After fraud with a "free" BenchVue, and also licensing any features in devices and any bolts(34465A-DIG,34465A-MEM and many other options) i want try another manufacturer.   :palm:
Keysight should think about it!

I buy DMM6500, after 8-9 week must receive it!  :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: NinjaSauce7 on May 22, 2018, 12:01:15 am
Was looking for this item and still noticed it is out of stock on Farnell  |O but it seems to be available here https://www.distrelec.de/en/multimeter-benchtop-trms-ac-dc-1000-vdc-10-adc-keithley-dmm6500/p/30108747?ext_cid=prnaanadeen-Keithley (https://www.distrelec.de/en/multimeter-benchtop-trms-ac-dc-1000-vdc-10-adc-keithley-dmm6500/p/30108747?ext_cid=prnaanadeen-Keithley) Also is it me or is that quite a low price? Maybe they got it wrong?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: sstepane on May 22, 2018, 12:03:16 am
Nope, the price is right. A bit high, like 50 euro more than it was at farnell, I think. All stock was gone in 1 week after the initial release.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: kj7e on May 22, 2018, 12:10:36 am
I would love to see a few good hi-res photos with the cover off.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on May 22, 2018, 01:39:05 am
I am tempted to buy a DMM6500 but I will be waiting to see if anyone will report any big or small bugs.
 
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: adambacon on May 22, 2018, 08:53:27 am
How does the DMM6500 compare to the DMM7510? Just 6.5 digits instead of 7.5 and a little less storage (7 million standard records instead of 11 million)? I am looking at getting an instrument to quantify the current draw of an IoT design that spends most of its life at <10uA but occassionally wakes up and pulls up to 20mA.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: EEVblog on May 22, 2018, 09:50:48 pm
Only just saw this.
Interesting.
The 34461A is a few bucks cheaper here in Oz, but basically the same price. See it's not killing on the price front.
Another spec vs spec and feature vs feature debate, might be a hard to make a general call on this?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: pmcouto on May 22, 2018, 11:07:09 pm
Only just saw this.
Interesting.
The 34461A is a few bucks cheaper here in Oz, but basically the same price. See it's not killing on the price front.
Another spec vs spec and feature vs feature debate, might be a hard to make a general call on this?

Dave,

The new DMM6500 has digitizing capabilities (1 MS/s) so it should be compared to Keysight 34465A, which costs more than 34461A (about 250$ USD).
Additionally, DMM6500 base model includes digitizing feature as well as 7 M readings memory; Unfortunately, both these features are paid options for KS 34465A.

So, unless KS revises 34465A pricing, DMM6500 is a real “killer” in the 6.5 digit bench DMM segment.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: EEVblog on May 22, 2018, 11:23:27 pm
Only just saw this.
Interesting.
The 34461A is a few bucks cheaper here in Oz, but basically the same price. See it's not killing on the price front.
Another spec vs spec and feature vs feature debate, might be a hard to make a general call on this?

The new DMM6500 has digitizing capabilities (1 MS/s) so it should be compared to Keysight 34465A, which costs more than 34461A (about 250$ USD).
Additionally, DMM6500 base model includes digitizing feature as well as 7 M readings memory; Unfortunately, both these features are paid options for KS 34465A.

So, unless KS revises 34465A pricing, DMM6500 is a real “killer” in the 6.5 digit bench DMM segment.

Ok, but what if you don't need a fast digitiser?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: kj7e on May 23, 2018, 12:37:42 am
The DMM6500 specs are better matched and in many areas better than to the 34465A.  I love my 34465A, but if I was in the market for another 6.5 digit DMM, I think I would have to go with the Keithley, it just seems to be more meter with better specs for the price.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on May 23, 2018, 12:52:39 am
Before getting to excited about the Keithley meter, maybe someone should measure the noise / Allan deviation plot. Some extra low frequency noise like with the DMM7510 could disappoint some users who hope for 7 digit resolution via PC interface.

The DMM6500 looks like a response to the 3446x meters, to also offer the more graphical user interface at a lower price range than the 7510.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: lukier on May 23, 2018, 02:49:08 am
The new DMM6500 has digitizing capabilities (1 MS/s) so it should be compared to Keysight 34465A, which costs more than 34461A (about 250$ USD).
Additionally, DMM6500 base model includes digitizing feature as well as 7 M readings memory; Unfortunately, both these features are paid options for KS 34465A.

So, unless KS revises 34465A pricing, DMM6500 is a real “killer” in the 6.5 digit bench DMM segment.

Ok, but what if you don't need a fast digitiser?

Well the meter is as you've mentioned on par with 34461A price-wise, so you get the digitizer and 7M sample memory for free. Also, what was a big deal for me, not only it supports the scanner cards but the old common ones (2001-TCSCAN). Also, I believe the software (Kickstart vs Benchvue) is cheaper and even free for now (beta version - 90 day trial).

Before getting to excited about the Keithley meter, maybe someone should measure the noise / Allan deviation plot. Some extra low frequency noise like with the DMM7510 could disappoint some users who hope for 7 digit resolution via PC interface.

I should be getting one soon so I can report my experience here. I'll try to capture Allan Deviation as well.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: sstepane on May 23, 2018, 02:54:57 am
The new DMM6500 has digitizing capabilities (1 MS/s) so it should be compared to Keysight 34465A, which costs more than 34461A (about 250$ USD).
Additionally, DMM6500 base model includes digitizing feature as well as 7 M readings memory; Unfortunately, both these features are paid options for KS 34465A.

So, unless KS revises 34465A pricing, DMM6500 is a real “killer” in the 6.5 digit bench DMM segment.

Ok, but what if you don't need a fast digitiser?

Well the meter is as you've mentioned on par with 34461A price-wise, so you get the digitizer and 7M sample memory for free. Also, what was a big deal for me, not only it supports the scanner cards but the old common ones (2001-TCSCAN). Also, I believe the software (Kickstart vs Benchvue) is cheaper and even free for now (beta version - 90 day trial).

Before getting to excited about the Keithley meter, maybe someone should measure the noise / Allan deviation plot. Some extra low frequency noise like with the DMM7510 could disappoint some users who hope for 7 digit resolution via PC interface.

I should be getting one soon so I can report my experience here. I'll try to capture Allan Deviation as well.

Also there's web server inside (LXI) with full remote control and data download. Plus quite extensive scripting engine (triggers, etc.) and free script builder software (even though its bulky like 1.5+ Gb).
I have not seen trend/chart feature on 34xxx series, but on dmm6500 it's very handy and quite useful (auto-scaling, touch screen zoom and stuff, triggers).
Only drawback for the moment is somewhat strange capacitance measurement - rarely measures caps in circuit, have no idea why.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: kj7e on May 23, 2018, 03:14:21 am
The web UI on the 3446x series is almost useless since Java support has been depreciated where as I use the web UI on the 7510 often.  The 34465 trend plot is very nice and well laid out and easier to use than the 7510 IMO, but the 7510 is much more powerful.  I suspect the 6500 and 7510 UI and web UI are nearly the same.

I'm curious what the Factory Calibration costs for the 6500, I know Keithley wants nearly $400 for the 7510.  For comparison I had my 34465A calibrated by Keysight for under $200.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: pmcouto on May 23, 2018, 05:40:23 am
Only just saw this.
Interesting.
The 34461A is a few bucks cheaper here in Oz, but basically the same price. See it's not killing on the price front.
Another spec vs spec and feature vs feature debate, might be a hard to make a general call on this?

The new DMM6500 has digitizing capabilities (1 MS/s) so it should be compared to Keysight 34465A, which costs more than 34461A (about 250$ USD).
Additionally, DMM6500 base model includes digitizing feature as well as 7 M readings memory; Unfortunately, both these features are paid options for KS 34465A.

So, unless KS revises 34465A pricing, DMM6500 is a real “killer” in the 6.5 digit bench DMM segment.

Ok, but what if you don't need a fast digitiser?

You are absolutely right – If fast digitizer is not needed, KS 34461A is a slightly cheaper comparable instrument.
We should also consider that 34461A is the “de facto” replacement for the industry standard 34401A.

However, specs and feature wise, DMM6500 seems to be a superior DMM with an excellent price/features/performance ratio.
Keysight’s DMM product managers are certainly not comfortable with Keithley/Tektronix pricing strategy for this meter...  >:D
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on May 23, 2018, 06:14:43 am
First things first: which referenz is inside?   :-//
(yes, i assume lm399...)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: kj7e on May 23, 2018, 06:17:29 am
First things first: which referenz is inside?   :-//
(yes, i assume lm399...)

Based on specs, I strongly suspect LTFLU-1ACH, but maybe not heated.  Keithley/Tek/Fluke use the LTFLU over the LM399 for this class of spec.

Edit: Bit it could be a well aged and selected LM399.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on May 23, 2018, 06:33:04 am
First things first: which referenz is inside?   :-//
(yes, i assume lm399...)

Based on specs, I strongly suspect LTFLU-1ACH, but maybe not heated.  Keithley/Tek/Fluke use the LTFLU over the LM399 for this class of spec.
Yes.  :)

Someone wrote in the forum:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/the-ltflu-(aka-sza263)-reference-zener-diode-circuit/msg608846/#msg608846 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/the-ltflu-(aka-sza263)-reference-zener-diode-circuit/msg608846/#msg608846)
Quote
I'ts now obvious to me that it will be more complicated to get good results with the LTFLU than with the LTZ1000, so why bother? I'll quote what I heard in an interview with a guy who's interest in life was old English sports cars, on why he liked tinkering with them: "They give you such interesting problems to solve!".
;D
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: lukier on May 25, 2018, 12:39:59 am
OK I got the meter yesterday and so far I find it quite impressive. UI wise it looks & feels like all the more expensive devices from modern Keithley lineup that people reviewed so far. Web interface is very nice as well.

I'm planning to do a mini-teardown soon (maybe this weekend if I have time) and write a short review after some getting more hands-on experience with the device.

For now I attach ~ 1h log of shorted inputs, AZ & line sync enabled, 3 NPLC (in the manual they recommend 1-5 NPLC range for the lowest noise). The meter was warmed up and the temperature should be relatively constant, slightly below the temperature it was calibrated at.

Maybe someone can generate an Allan Deviation plot (I'm playing with that as well at the moment).
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: maxwell3e10 on May 25, 2018, 12:46:08 am
Thanks. I can plot in comparison to DMM7510. What voltage range was the data taken on?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: lukier on May 25, 2018, 12:50:15 am
Thanks! It was auto ranged so the lowest - 0.1V
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: kj7e on May 25, 2018, 12:57:43 am
Thanks! It was auto ranged so the lowest - 0.1V

Could you do one more but set the range to manual 10v.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: maxwell3e10 on May 25, 2018, 01:08:50 am
Here is the plot for 100 mV comparison of DMM7510 and DMM6500. So it seems a bit of a disappointment that the noise with shorted inputs is not the same, as in 34465A vs. 34470A. Also the autozero bump in Allan deviation is still there.
The rms noise on 100 mV setting is 1.1 ppm for 3 nplc, which is still pretty good. For comparison, DMM7510 has about 0.35 ppm and 34465A has about 1.9 ppm. 
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/?action=dlattach;attach=440461)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: lukier on May 25, 2018, 01:10:16 am
Could you do one more but set the range to manual 10v.

OK, I'll try to capture that in the evening.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: TiN on May 25, 2018, 01:57:14 am
C'mon, let's crack the hood already and see who lives inside. Perhaps LTZ pimping await for brave souls. :D
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: lukier on May 25, 2018, 02:03:35 am
C'mon, let's crack the hood already and see who lives inside. Perhaps LTZ pimping await for brave souls. :D

I'll try to do that over the weekend :) I'll contact you when I'll have the photos.

Regarding the reference, the specs are very similar to other LM399 meters, so that would be my first guess. People say LTFLU-1ACH, but I highly doubt it, it would have better specs and noise-wise too. Also, Fluke 8846A uses LM399 AFAIR, despite being Fluke.

We shall see soon.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: lukier on May 25, 2018, 08:14:15 am
OK, here's the 1h short on the 10V range. Other settings are the same: 3 NPLC, AZ, Line Sync, no math.

It looks quite good, StdDev of 1.66 uV on 10V is 0.166 ppm.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: maxwell3e10 on May 25, 2018, 11:48:41 am
Here is the comparison of the noise with other meters on 10V scale. It is OK but not great. They are clearly saving money on the analog hardware. It would be interesting to see what kind of ADC is used.

For comparison 34465A has about 0.075ppm noise on 10V range at 3 nplc and DMM7510 has roughly 0.066ppm noise at 3 nplc.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/?action=dlattach;attach=440932;image)

P.S. It looks like DMM6500 is fairly closely matching in noise the 34461A, see
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/dmm-adc-noise-comparison-testing-project/msg667540/#msg667540 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/dmm-adc-noise-comparison-testing-project/msg667540/#msg667540)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: lukier on May 25, 2018, 05:37:33 pm
P.S. It looks like DMM6500 is fairly closely matching in noise the 34461A, see
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/dmm-adc-noise-comparison-testing-project/msg667540/#msg667540 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/dmm-adc-noise-comparison-testing-project/msg667540/#msg667540)

Interesting, I thought (based on Dave's teardowns) that 344xx are all the same with just some parts added to support extra functions (like the uCurrent range or 10A) and various grades of references or LTZ1000 and of course software crippling.

If the noise on 34461A is very different from 34465A that would suggest a completely different design.

Regarding the DMM6500 I've listed various pros already, mostly modern UI, scripting and interfaces, with all the capabilities they bring, plus the scanner card support.
Now some first cons:
- banana jacks don't look copper! maybe it is some silver plating?,
- also they are quite deep even for this safety-jacks category, I have a bunch of banana plugs with spring loaded safety shroud and they pop out immediately,
- 4.5W standby power and soft power switch (with a standby LED to make it worse),
- transformer hum in standby,
- the probes supplied look and feel quite crappy, PVC cable, not very flexible handles.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on May 25, 2018, 05:44:20 pm
The curve for the DMM6500 also seem to include some extra low frequency noise. Not as obvious as with the 7510 but still there.
So the ADC in the 6500 is higher noise than the 34465, even without the extra LF noise. So noise wise the ADC might be more like the 34461 that is at a similar price point.

However the earlier curve for the 100 mV range showed that the input amplifier is rather low noise - not as good as with the 7510, but still better than the 34465, even with the odd extra LF noise. The increased LF noise also in the 100 mV range suggests that the AZ mode also includes the full input amplifier like with most Keysight meters and different from the old Keithley meters (e.g. 2000,2001, 2002), that use a separate buffer upfront.

For the ADC used, I don't think they get that performance from a SD converter chip or similar - so it is likely a multislope converter of some kind likely in combination with a ADC chip (fast SD converter) for the fast data rates (like more than 1000 SPS) and maybe AC conversion.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: AG7CK on May 28, 2018, 07:31:36 am
I would like to know if anyone has any experience with:

Kickstart 2.0 (priced) vs. older Kickstart (free): Will this instrument run under Version 1.7.0 and 1.9.8 ?

TSP / Test Script Builder - What can be programmed (without buying accessories) and how?

2000-SCAN Card - Would it be possible to DIY anything based on documentation / reverse engineering from the K2000 family.

KTTI-RS232, KTTI-GPIB, KTTI-TSP - Does the instrument have a "Talk-Only" mode so that one could sniff the data for use on an external monitor ? (instead of paying hundreds of dollars for a simple RS232-Card)

"Big Digit" (Large Digits) mode: Can the display be customized / composed by "programming"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clpehjdNdaI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clpehjdNdaI)


Anything else "new and modern" (apart from the UI and Digitizer)? [I agree with the posters above who emphasizes the "gadget"-style of this box. I have a handful of older (stable and agreeing) 6.5 / 7.5 digit voltmeters / dataloggers, so I am not worried about noise- and/or drift qualities from this meter compared to "old-fashioned" HP-type meters ... ]
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: lukier on May 28, 2018, 08:51:05 pm
I would like to know if anyone has any experience with:

Kickstart 2.0 (priced) vs. older Kickstart (free): Will this instrument run under Version 1.7.0 and 1.9.8 ?

Sorry, Linux here so I didn't even bother to download Kickstart.

TSP / Test Script Builder - What can be programmed (without buying accessories) and how?

I just got the meter, so I haven't tried TSP scripts but I thought these are just text files with LUA, so I have no idea about any Test Script Builders or buying accessories for that. TSP scripts are definitely on my list of things to try - like using the digitizer to capture the MCU's current consumption and then calculate an intergral over that to estimate the power usage. I was also thinking that, with the 1 MSPS digitizer, having a FFT function would be nice to see dunno, the noise from simple < 100kHz DC-DC switchers. But without the FFT function built-in I guess implementing it purely in LUA will be a waste of time as it would be very slow I guess.

2000-SCAN Card - Would it be possible to DIY anything based on documentation / reverse engineering from the K2000 family.

I have 2001-TCSCAN card and it works with the meter. The nice thing is that one can program DMM functions, with all their settings, per channel so when switching everything is already set.

Regarding the DIY option it is definitely doable, I was planning to do that, the schematics are there, this article from TiN is helpful as well:
https://xdevs.com/review/kei2001tscan/

and I guess making the non-TCSCAN version is even cheaper as one does not need expensive AD590MH temperature sensor and machine the copper block. The rest is just a bunch of TQ2E-L2-5V relays, terminal blocks, MIC5841 drivers and some other bits and bobs.

In the end, just after I finished redrawing the schematic in KiCAD and before I started doing the PCB layout I managed to score 2001-TCSCAN cards on eBay for around 120 GBP, so the project is abandoned.

KTTI-RS232, KTTI-GPIB, KTTI-TSP - Does the instrument have a "Talk-Only" mode so that one could sniff the data for use on an external monitor ? (instead of paying hundreds of dollars for a simple RS232-Card)

No idea, it has USB and Ethernet by default, so I'm actually glad that the archaic/arcane interfaces are separate paid options, so it doesn't increase the base price of the meter. If somebody needs to replace 34401A or K2000 in a production system then of course they'll have to buy KTTI-GPIB or similar, but for me personally I don't care - Ethernet FTW.

"Big Digit" (Large Digits) mode: Can the display be customized / composed by "programming"?

I haven't found such option yet. What customisation you have in mind?

Anything else "new and modern" (apart from the UI and Digitizer)? [I agree with the posters above who emphasizes the "gadget"-style of this box. I have a handful of older (stable and agreeing) 6.5 / 7.5 digit voltmeters / dataloggers, so I am not worried about noise- and/or drift qualities from this meter compared to "old-fashioned" HP-type meters ... ]

It was similar for me, I have a bunch of other, older meters, some more stable, some with more digits, but I wanted a modern one with all the bells & whistles.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cyr on May 28, 2018, 10:38:04 pm
TSP / Test Script Builder - What can be programmed (without buying accessories) and how?

Have a look at the programming section(s) of the manual:

https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-bench-system-0 (https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-bench-system-0)

Some sample code here:

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2607097.pdf?_ga=2.109722629.1255162927.1522665742-1348294533.1519212668 (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2607097.pdf?_ga=2.109722629.1255162927.1522665742-1348294533.1519212668)

You shouldn't need anything more than a text editor and USB stick or a network connection, although I'm sure "Test script builder" is helpful when developing...
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: kj7e on May 29, 2018, 04:41:12 am
C'mon, let's crack the hood already and see who lives inside. Perhaps LTZ pimping await for brave souls. :D

I'll try to do that over the weekend :) I'll contact you when I'll have the photos.

Regarding the reference, the specs are very similar to other LM399 meters, so that would be my first guess. People say LTFLU-1ACH, but I highly doubt it, it would have better specs and noise-wise too. Also, Fluke 8846A uses LM399 AFAIR, despite being Fluke.

We shall see soon.

(https://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://home.freeuk.com/jrknight/smileys/postpics.gif&key=77f0ef30a7a7f2eb67cead4a79ad94126f9701d02ee752347d4e46fa82bd2743)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: lukier on May 29, 2018, 05:03:01 am
I gave all the pics to TiN, he did a splendid job with retouching and postprocessing them as my DSLR skills are very mediocre :) I believe he will publish them on xDevs soon :)

For now I'll just say: it is LM399, but as usual pre-aged and pre-selected with custom markings :)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: AG7CK on May 29, 2018, 07:24:16 am
...
It was similar for me, I have a bunch of other, older meters, some more stable, some with more digits, but I wanted a modern one with all the bells & whistles.

Thank you very much for your very informative post. I missed it yesterday when I glanced through the last posts. Sorry.

I will get a DMM6500. Cool box.


[Edit: Deleted some rambling]

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: kj7e on May 29, 2018, 08:27:12 am
I gave all the pics to TiN, he did a splendid job with retouching and postprocessing them as my DSLR skills are very mediocre :) I believe he will publish them on xDevs soon :)

For now I'll just say: it is LM399, but as usual pre-aged and pre-selected with custom markings :)

Found them;

https://doc.xdevs.com/doc/Keithley/DMM6500/lukier/

Thanks!

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on May 29, 2018, 09:04:37 am
As i suspected.
(lukier's pictures from xdevs.com processed)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/?action=dlattach;attach=443296)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/?action=dlattach;attach=443302)

This 70k isn't a VHP100/200 best quality ...?!

Edit: Big orig pictures to smaller ones
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: kj7e on May 29, 2018, 09:17:57 am
Amazing the level of effort needed to go from 6.5 to 7.5 and then 8.5 digit.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on May 29, 2018, 09:31:56 am
Amazing the level of effort needed to go from 6.5 to 7.5 and then 8.5 digit.
Yes, really. But I'm thinking, if I would really buy something like that again next to my Keysight
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: shodan@micron on June 10, 2018, 03:41:34 am
I received my 6500. In compare my old 34410A (Keysight calibration mar.18), its looks very good.
Tested volt, current and resistance in 6500, all looks fine.

DMM6500 is decent representative of 6.5 digit class!  :-+
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: IAmBack on June 26, 2018, 10:59:57 pm
Hi.

Any news about DMM6500?
I can buy Keysight 34461A about 15% cheaper than DMM6500. Considering specifications and planned exploatation period (10 years maybe) I'm more convinced to buy Keithley rather than Keysight. Anyone would choose other way?

Regards.


Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on July 13, 2018, 11:50:26 pm
Is there any newer Firmware as V1.0.0j in the meantime?

I've got mine dmm6500 today, and had not less than 4 bluescreens in the first two hours at the trial to measure my 10V references graphically. Also the y-scaling is relatively meaningless as well as the vertical indication of the cursoposition as voltage.

Btw, the calibration certificate is from 15-May-2018, says nothing else as "In Tolerance",and doesn't contain any information about actually measured values! Is that normal? Big difference to Keysight.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: maxwell3e10 on July 14, 2018, 12:07:03 am
Yea, funny vertical scale and those 10 uV jumps look pretty bad if you used a good 10V reference.

Of course this meter is meant to be more of an eye candy than a metrology instrument.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on July 14, 2018, 02:51:02 am

Btw, the calibration certificate is from 15-May-2018, says nothing else as "In Tolerance",and doesn't contain any information about actually measured values! Is that normal? Big difference to Keysight.

I heard that Keithley changed their policies regarding calibration certificates.
You can order a full calibration report with all detailed values, but you have to pay extra for that!
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on July 14, 2018, 04:23:39 am
Of course this meter is meant to be more of an eye candy than a metrology instrument.
Would you rather suggest a 34465a?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: maxwell3e10 on July 14, 2018, 05:19:58 am
For absolute stability one would need to go to a 7-1/2 digit meter, like a 34470A. At the 6-1/2 digit level, measurements suggest that 34461A is actually better in terms of noise than 34465A, https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/dmm-adc-noise-comparison-testing-project/msg1658819/#msg1658819 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/dmm-adc-noise-comparison-testing-project/msg1658819/#msg1658819)

Certainly Keysight 344x series never has a blue screen as far as I know. It doesn't have all of the latest user interface features of the Keithley meters, but it is still a big step up from the old style meters that just give a number.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on July 14, 2018, 09:44:46 pm
It took Keithley a while to fix the blue screen problems on the DMM7510, 2450 and 2460 SMUs. It is a big surprise to me to see a blue screen of the DMM6500. I will wait until this problem is fixed, before I will buy one.
 
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on July 15, 2018, 07:26:55 am
I own a 344651a for >2 years, and that's the same reference:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/build-a-10v-buffer-inside-the-teko371-ltz1000-box/msg1611664/#msg1611664 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/build-a-10v-buffer-inside-the-teko371-ltz1000-box/msg1611664/#msg1611664)

Confessedly a bit rough construction, that should be a prototype, a feasibility study, but it works actually very good in my opinion. Don't see those 10 uV jumps on the Keysight.The Keysight is (edit: 10uV) 60uV off to the 6500 and need calibration for shure. But now, i really don't know, what's going on with this brand new dmm6500.

Frankly said, there to add a note that says no more than "all ok my dear", and to label that with "calalibration certificate" is a joke! They would hardly sell a dmm with "NOT in Tolerance", instead they can put the advertising as a certificate immediately.  :wtf:

Ok, no more bluescreens in the moment after >24h, the connectivity is better with the dmm6500, and i have some expectations in TSP and APPS. So i will give the meter another chance.
 
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on July 15, 2018, 07:28:59 pm
The low frequency noise shown for the DMM6500 does look nasty at first view. However it is not that much different from what you are expected to see for an LM399 reference. It may be the difference between a simple of the shelf LM399 and one selected for low popcorn noise.

It is a 6 digit meter after all and 10 µV in the 10 V range is just 1 ppm. They show some extra resolution, but one can not expect this to be really stable.

If in 10 V range, a 60 µV and thus 6 ppm difference to another meter is also well within the specs.

For me the blue screens would be more something to worry about - a software problem should not get better over time.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on July 16, 2018, 01:07:37 am
The low frequency noise shown for the DMM6500 does look nasty at first view. However it is not that much different from what you are expected to see for an LM399 reference. It may be the difference between a simple of the shelf LM399 and one selected for low popcorn noise.

It is a 6 digit meter after all and 10 µV in the 10 V range is just 1 ppm. They show some extra resolution, but one can not expect this to be really stable.

If in 10 V range, a 60 µV and thus 6 ppm difference to another meter is also well within the specs.

For me the blue screens would be more something to worry about - a software problem should not get better over time.

Yes, i understand your judgment. I understand my somewhat subjective expectations of "such" a meter from a meta view, so thank you for that. But my answer is, with all due respect, NO, that's still unacceptable.

I don't want a >1000 Eur meter with all this metrological limitations at the lowest end. Starting, for example, with the seemingly only nickel-plated measuring sockets, over the compared to my 34461a unstable measurement results, right through to the absurdities, simply erroneous behavior of the gui, not to mention the withheld docs from the important first calibration and bluescreens. This meter is also at the metrological lower (-lowest) end of the "specs", a 34465a is, subjective diametral, at the higher end of what the lm399 technology is to get. And with this, it has to be measured. This meter is is finally a Keithley-Tek, the successor of the K2000, and as such, it really disappoints me.

A hobbyist, for whom this is the very first table dmm will say, what a beauty. An electronics enthusiast will be rather disappointed in the ranks of his older 6.5 meters, a metrologyist should not get such a dmm, also hardly in this price range. For me, that was a bad buy.

I am sorry to say so. Others may come to other conclusions.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on July 16, 2018, 09:35:03 am
Another example of what this dmm delivered during a long-term measurement (ltz1000 ref).

These 18uV spikes are not from my reference:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/?action=dlattach;attach=477329)

It ends up by simply touch the touch-screen to the left (only the screen!). After that, measurement again reasonably ok.  :-/O

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/?action=dlattach;attach=477341)

It started here:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/?action=dlattach;attach=477335)

This dmm has BIG problems...  :-BROKE   :palm:


Edit: taken with 5 NPLC, Filter 10 repeat, autozero, 10Mohm impendance, ap's teflon cable
My 34461a shows max 2 to 2.5uV 100 NPLC

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: coromonadalix on July 16, 2018, 01:32:24 pm
We had in our equipment a strange touch screen problem,   We had to put an 0.1 uf 1kv capacitor between the electronic ground and the earth ground to kill noise on the touch screen supply ????

The supply we use is CSA UL CE compliant / listed, but far from being prefect, some ac component is found on the dc outputs ????

Just touching the screen and the noise drop ???  wow
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on July 16, 2018, 02:40:18 pm
According to my observation, behavior has less to do with capacitive disturbances, but rather the algorithm triggered by shifting it to the left, cause a different processing of the signal to be measured. In other words, it was somewhat "out of takt" before.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on July 16, 2018, 05:28:32 pm

This dmm has BIG problems...  :-BROKE   :palm:

Are you saying that without changing the anything on you setup the spikes just showed up
and went away again by swiping the screen?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on July 16, 2018, 06:09:36 pm

This dmm has BIG problems...  :-BROKE   :palm:

Are you saying that without changing the anything on you setup the spikes just showed up
and went away again by swiping the screen?
YES.

I did nothing but swiping the screen to the left and a gesture, 2 fingers, to adjust the y-scale a little.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: zucca on July 16, 2018, 06:22:35 pm
 :palm:
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on July 16, 2018, 06:37:58 pm
Having the noise spikes disappear/reduced  when touching the screen is interesting. It somewhat points to a problem with common mode noise (e.g. from the DMM internal supply).  I don't think it is a problem of the touch screen itself, more like from a switching converter.

So this might really be a problem of the meter - maybe by design or a broken internal cap. The environment might also be a factor, e.g. with lots of EMI from the grid or maybe lamps.

We had in our equipment a strange touch screen problem,   We had to put an 0.1 uf 1kv capacitor between the electronic ground and the earth ground to kill noise on the touch screen supply ????

The supply we use is CSA UL CE compliant / listed, but far from being prefect, some ac component is found on the dc outputs ????

Just touching the screen and the noise drop ???  wow
0.1 µF sounds like a lot - normally the usual class Y caps should be sufficient (e.g. 5 nF with high voltage rating for safety). In a meter I would prefer even less.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Synthtech on July 16, 2018, 07:01:33 pm
Element 14 in Australia is of course out of stock of the Keithly for months otherwise I would have already purchased a DMM6500, perhaps I am lucky that they don’t have them. Of course they are also out of all the Keysight Truevolt meters but after reading this thread I am glad that I am forced to wait, it will be interesting to see how this all unfolds, I might be better with a Keysight.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on July 16, 2018, 07:05:28 pm
Having the noise spikes disappear/reduced  when touching the screen is interesting. It somewhat points to a problem with common mode noise (e.g. from the DMM internal supply).  I don't think it is a problem of the touch screen itself, more like from a switching converter.

So this might really be a problem of the meter - maybe by design or a broken internal cap. The environment might also be a factor, e.g. with lots of EMI from the grid or maybe lamps.
Is this to me?
This is not "touching", this is swiping.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg1675235/#msg1675235 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg1675235/#msg1675235)

And this can not be EMI from enviroment, if itself measured this 5h before without this (over night measurement); yes, this are wrong measurements from the meter itself.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on July 16, 2018, 07:44:49 pm
According to my observation, behavior has less to do with capacitive disturbances, but rather the algorithm triggered by shifting it to the left, cause a different processing of the signal to be measured. In other words, it was somewhat "out of takt" before.

I had overlooked this and my first thought was the effect of capacitive coupling to the screen. This description would point towards a software problem or maybe something like interference of the display with the meter itself, like massive interface traffic on the shift / redraw causing the spikes.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on July 16, 2018, 07:52:29 pm
I had overlooked this and my first thought was the effect of capacitive coupling to the screen. This description would point towards a software problem or maybe something like interference of the display with the meter itself, like massive interface traffic on the shift / redraw causing the spikes.
Maybe, maybe, tcp/ip dhcp (edit: but fixed ip) was connected too ...  :-/O
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on July 17, 2018, 12:32:42 am
Hi everyone, Applications Engineer for Keithley here.  Just letting you all know that engineers here do read all these threads and try to review all the problems you present.  This latest one is really strange to us.  The graph should have no influence on readings taken, and the analog measurement board is well separated from anything involving the display.

hwj-d, I'm going to PM you my email address, I have a few questions gathered from the design team and I want try recreating the problem here.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: lukier on July 17, 2018, 01:11:04 am
Hi everyone, Applications Engineer for Keithley here.  Just letting you all know that engineers here do read all these threads and try to review all the problems you present.  This latest one is really strange to us.  The graph should have no influence on readings taken, and the analog measurement board is well separated from anything involving the display.

I'm very glad Keithley is listening to the community.

Few observations from my side:

Regarding the touchscreen noise it didn't occur to me as I usually set the meter and leave it alone - I bought it mostly for logging things.

Here's a screenshot of an 1h log of 10V from Fluke 5440B, std. deviation is quite good, but I cannot say what is the cause of spikes there as I didn't use fancy volt-nut cables, don't know how good my 5440B is and I definitely have a lot of EMI around from all the gear, PCs and cheap wall-warts. (5 NPLC, auto zero, no filter or math, HiZ input impedance).

 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/?action=dlattach;attach=477644;image)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on July 17, 2018, 01:52:20 am

Feel free to PM me more details/feedback if you have them.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on July 17, 2018, 04:22:45 am
I'm very glad too, Keithley is now listening to the community.

But I think, it's very important to us, to prioritize issues and their fixes here in the forum, not just as a PM.  :)

Big thank's to Brad O   :-+

... and welcome in the forum
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: maxwell3e10 on July 17, 2018, 04:50:20 am
One could somewhat understand software glitches and blue screens in DMM7510, which was a brand-new software platform, and they have been for the most part resolved over time.  I am not sure why the new meter DMM6500 also has BSD issues, since I would assume the majority of the code is the same.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on July 17, 2018, 04:56:33 am
Brad O:

Thanks fort stepping in here officially for Keithley.

We are a highly technical community here and would really appreciate some detailed technical
feedback of why these issues with the DMM6500 exist.

I went through the the blue screen problems on my DMM7510, 2450 and 2460 SMU and did not
expect similar issues on the DMM6500. Actually I wanted to buy a DMM6500 but now I am waiting
for the issues to be solved and for a good explanation, before I will buy.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on July 17, 2018, 06:48:41 am
But I think, it's very important to us, to prioritize issues and their fixes here in the forum, not just as a PM.  :)
I certainly don't want to prevent any discussion here!  I just don't want to clog up this thread with troubleshooting Q&A either... (Another place to give good or bad feedback is the Tek/Keithley support forum (https://forum.tek.com/viewforum.php?f=617) which may be better suited for back-and-forth troubleshooting than here.)

To maxwell3e10and HighVoltage: A lot of the firmware/software for the DMM6500 and DAQ6510 is new.  There are enough differences in the design that many resources couldn't be reused from the 7510.  In terms of technical reasoning for this particular problem, I'm not sure yet.  We've done long-term testing here and not seen anything like what hwj-d reported.  I will certainly try to give you technical reasons for other issues, but understand that Keithley designs are confidential so I'm limited in how much detail I can give without a review from our legal department. Many times too, the answer is simply a software bug. 
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on July 17, 2018, 08:23:57 am
But I think, it's very important to us, to prioritize issues and their fixes here in the forum, not just as a PM.  :)
I certainly don't want to prevent any discussion here!  I just don't want to clog up this thread with troubleshooting Q&A either... (Another place to give good or bad feedback is the Tek/Keithley support forum (https://forum.tek.com/viewforum.php?f=617) which may be better suited for back-and-forth troubleshooting than here.)
Ok, that's a little bit OT now.

Yes, but don't get me wrong, I think as I understand this forum, one of the main concerns is to be able to ask and answer questions here on neutral ground.

There are threats with many hundreds of pages, which are still not overcrowded, thanks to the very good search function. If a thread actually becomes OT, one can define a more suitable one. R&S, for example, solved this with its own self-defined thread. And we, I think, are very thankful for that.  ;)

Of course many technical questions can be better answered in the Tek forum, maybe, we do not have to compete for that. But contributions of all kinds (according to the forum rules), which are addressed and discussed here in the forum, should continue to be publicly discussed here. That's what this forum stands for.

If necessary, please correct me.
(Edit: I forgot, I spoke only as a enthusiast member...)

Thanks

 ;)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on July 18, 2018, 02:53:47 am
The first firmware update for the these instruments has been released.  For the DMM6500 (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1001-and-release-notes) and for the DAQ6510 (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1001-and-release-notes).
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: elbot on July 26, 2018, 08:42:43 pm
The first firmware update for the these instruments has been released.  For the DMM6500 (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1001-and-release-notes) and for the DAQ6510 (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1001-and-release-notes).

Flashed DVM to 1.0.01f and it seems to have fixed lock-up problems (4) moving around the menu's, but still seen a lock-up by running a script
further once a "blue screen" saving a script... so still room for improvements.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on July 31, 2018, 12:59:17 am
seen a lock-up by running a script further once a "blue screen" saving a script... so still room for improvements.

So a lock-up while running a script and a blue screen while saving a (the same?) script?  Could you send me the script you're using?  That's likely a problem with one of the commands so we'd like to see what commands are used and the context they're used in.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: elbot on July 31, 2018, 06:14:05 pm
seen a lock-up by running a script further once a "blue screen" saving a script... so still room for improvements.

So a lock-up while running a script and a blue screen while saving a (the same?) script?  Could you send me the script you're using?  That's likely a problem with one of the commands so we'd like to see what commands are used and the context they're used in.

Hi,

Sorry to say the scripts are long gone,
but to be a bit more precise, the lock-up in “running script” was not actually while running the script
but loading it in the Scripts Menu.
The blue screen, saving script.. quite sure I used an existing name.

Problem in both cases,  it’s not possible to repeat.

I have been writing professional firmware for 25 years and know how
frustrating it can be for the developer to find the bug without sufficient feedback from the user
and will try to save the circumstances if further problems turns up.
 
Great to see KEITHLEY responds to reported problems here at eevblog
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: elbot on August 10, 2018, 08:42:58 pm
seen a lock-up by running a script further once a "blue screen" saving a script... so still room for improvements.

So a lock-up while running a script and a blue screen while saving a (the same?) script?  Could you send me the script you're using?  That's likely a problem with one of the commands so we'd like to see what commands are used and the context they're used in.

HI,

Found the blue-screen trigger (from Settings swipe or tab to graph press Calc or Meassure icon before graph window fully loads) see attached video.
To me its a classic threaded programming issue.. one task starts upon another.. the good thing its easy to fix :)

I'm sure quite sure the blue-screens I've seen other places moving around menus relates to this issue.

Regards
Claus
 
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: elbot on August 10, 2018, 09:45:54 pm
seen a lock-up by running a script further once a "blue screen" saving a script... so still room for improvements.

So a lock-up while running a script and a blue screen while saving a (the same?) script?  Could you send me the script you're using?  That's likely a problem with one of the commands so we'd like to see what commands are used and the context they're used in.

HI,

Found the "Run Script" lock-up trigger (not Blue- Screen)  I reported earlier (quite easy when you know what to look for) In run menu switch rapidly between Scripts / Run Selected
(some times only 2 switch necessary) and exit with Menu button then main menu locks up, and power-cycle needed.

This instrument have for sure problems if you have "fast" fingers and I'm quite sure the problems can be triggered all over the GUI, something in the threaded programming needs an overhaul, a bit strange that QC of the firmware hasn't spotted this weakness.
 
Regards
Claus

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on August 11, 2018, 02:14:53 am

Found the blue-screen trigger (from Settings swipe or tab to graph press Calc or Meassure icon before graph window fully loads) see attached video.
To me its a classic threaded programming issue.. one task starts upon another.. the good thing its easy to fix :)

Oh yes that's really easy to duplicate, I just saw it on my desktop unit!  I've filed the issue as AR61734 and it should be fixed in the next firmware release.  It looks like that doesn't happen with shortcuts on any of the other swipe screens, or if you're using the rear inputs, but that one must've slipped by.

Found the "Run Script" lock-up trigger (not Blue- Screen)  I reported earlier (quite easy when you know what to look for) In run menu switch rapidly between Scripts / Run Selected
(some times only 2 switch necessary) and exit with Menu button then main menu locks up, and power-cycle needed.

Ooh, now this one's pretty interesting and has already been fixed in the development firmware.  This is actually a bug with the file selector object and how it interacts with multi-touch.  If you have nothing selected and touch the file selector object (just the area itself, not a list item in it) and anywhere else on the screen that's not an active object (e.g. an inactive button) the touchscreen sometimes gets trapped in the file select object so you can only interact with the files listed.  Other buttons on the box will work normally since they don't require the touchscreen.  Like I said it's been fixed for the next firmware, but there's also an easy workaround in the meantime so you don't have to restart your DMM: press the FUNCTION key and then the TRIGGER key.  That sequence will do a soft reset of the display and allow the touchscreen to act normally again. 

Thank you so much for sending these, though I'm sorry you had to see them.  Incidentally, you seem pretty good at this, you know we have an opening for a firmware test engineer... ;)

Also as an update for the board, I've so far been unable to replicate the shifting noise level problem hwj-d reported, that's in as AR61694 for more engineers to evaluate. 
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: elbot on August 13, 2018, 04:45:36 pm

Found the blue-screen trigger (from Settings swipe or tab to graph press Calc or Meassure icon before graph window fully loads) see attached video.
To me its a classic threaded programming issue.. one task starts upon another.. the good thing its easy to fix :)

Oh yes that's really easy to duplicate, I just saw it on my desktop unit!  I've filed the issue as AR61734 and it should be fixed in the next firmware release.  It looks like that doesn't happen with shortcuts on any of the other swipe screens, or if you're using the rear inputs, but that one must've slipped by.

Found the "Run Script" lock-up trigger (not Blue- Screen)  I reported earlier (quite easy when you know what to look for) In run menu switch rapidly between Scripts / Run Selected
(some times only 2 switch necessary) and exit with Menu button then main menu locks up, and power-cycle needed.

Ooh, now this one's pretty interesting and has already been fixed in the development firmware.  This is actually a bug with the file selector object and how it interacts with multi-touch.  If you have nothing selected and touch the file selector object (just the area itself, not a list item in it) and anywhere else on the screen that's not an active object (e.g. an inactive button) the touchscreen sometimes gets trapped in the file select object so you can only interact with the files listed.  Other buttons on the box will work normally since they don't require the touchscreen.  Like I said it's been fixed for the next firmware, but there's also an easy workaround in the meantime so you don't have to restart your DMM: press the FUNCTION key and then the TRIGGER key.  That sequence will do a soft reset of the display and allow the touchscreen to act normally again. 

Thank you so much for sending these, though I'm sorry you had to see them.  Incidentally, you seem pretty good at this, you know we have an opening for a firmware test engineer... ;)

Also as an update for the board, I've so far been unable to replicate the shifting noise level problem hwj-d reported, that's in as AR61694 for more engineers to evaluate.

HI,

Really like your comment about the job opening... would be nice to rip others code apart after a lot of people had tried to do the same with mine during the years. :)

Found a couple of bugs more...

1)
System Events, randomly select events and "empty" pos in the grid... the "OK" dialog  hangs even if you exit with physically Key's it's still present. (see foto)

2)
Manage Scripts, Select a script hold your finger and tab outside frame exit with menu key and you have a lock up (Trigger/Function will fix it)

The bugs was easily triggered within minutes, and shows sorry to say vulnerability all over the GUI

Regards
Claus
 

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: wn1fju on August 13, 2018, 10:10:52 pm
Received my DMM6500 a few days ago and did the firmware update.  As the picture in the previous post shows, I too get a couple of Informational 4917
messages in the log every time I turn it on.  Obviously it does no harm, but do I really need to know buffers that I am not using are 0% filled?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: ebclr on August 13, 2018, 10:19:34 pm
Mine is on the way, From Newark, I hope  they  come from a new lot with a more updated firmware
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: elbot on August 13, 2018, 11:10:48 pm

Found the blue-screen trigger (from Settings swipe or tab to graph press Calc or Meassure icon before graph window fully loads) see attached video.
To me its a classic threaded programming issue.. one task starts upon another.. the good thing its easy to fix :)

Oh yes that's really easy to duplicate, I just saw it on my desktop unit!  I've filed the issue as AR61734 and it should be fixed in the next firmware release.  It looks like that doesn't happen with shortcuts on any of the other swipe screens, or if you're using the rear inputs, but that one must've slipped by.

Found the "Run Script" lock-up trigger (not Blue- Screen)  I reported earlier (quite easy when you know what to look for) In run menu switch rapidly between Scripts / Run Selected
(some times only 2 switch necessary) and exit with Menu button then main menu locks up, and power-cycle needed.

Ooh, now this one's pretty interesting and has already been fixed in the development firmware.  This is actually a bug with the file selector object and how it interacts with multi-touch.  If you have nothing selected and touch the file selector object (just the area itself, not a list item in it) and anywhere else on the screen that's not an active object (e.g. an inactive button) the touchscreen sometimes gets trapped in the file select object so you can only interact with the files listed.  Other buttons on the box will work normally since they don't require the touchscreen.  Like I said it's been fixed for the next firmware, but there's also an easy workaround in the meantime so you don't have to restart your DMM: press the FUNCTION key and then the TRIGGER key.  That sequence will do a soft reset of the display and allow the touchscreen to act normally again. 

Thank you so much for sending these, though I'm sorry you had to see them.  Incidentally, you seem pretty good at this, you know we have an opening for a firmware test engineer... ;)

Also as an update for the board, I've so far been unable to replicate the shifting noise level problem hwj-d reported, that's in as AR61694 for more engineers to evaluate.

HI,

Really like your comment about the job opening... would be nice to rip others code apart after a lot of people had tried to do the same with mine during the years. :)

Found a couple of bugs more...

1)
System Events, randomly select events and "empty" pos in the grid... the "OK" dialog  hangs even if you exit with physically Key's it's still present. (see foto)

2)
Manage Scripts, Select a script hold your finger and tab outside frame exit with menu key and you have a lock up (Trigger/Function will fix it)

The bugs was easily triggered within minutes, and shows sorry to say vulnerability all over the GUI

Regards
Claus

Last bug today...

Trigger Configure, Tab and hold one of the flow-boxes while applying one or a couple of tab's to the Buffer Clear frame.... exit with Menu.. main then locked
sometimes several tab's on the Icons recover function but mostly completely locked.

Regards
Claus   

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on August 14, 2018, 03:28:51 am
A new firmware is coming to the website in 1-2 weeks but it is mostly to fix an internal issue.  Expect a new customer focused firmware release in... October I'd guess.  The imminent firmware seems to make a lot of these issues harder to reproduce, but it doesn't directly address any of them, that will be for the later firmware.

wn1fju: Add the attached script to your DMM to remove those messages on startup (You'll have to remove the .txt extension before putting it on your DMM, the forum won't let me upload just .tsp).  All it does is run eventlog.clear() on startup to clear the buffer messages before you see them, you could add that command to your own startup script if you have one.  The only downside with doing this is it will prevent you from seeing any legitimate startup errors should they happen.See my next post for clarification.  The reason those messages happen is that a lot of our customers that use DMMs for logging will run a script based on that 0% filled message.  That message is often used (and is the recommended use case) for the Service Request (SRQ) bit used in IEEE standards.

elbot:
1)
System Events, randomly select events and "empty" pos in the grid... the "OK" dialog  hangs even if you exit with physically Key's it's still present. (see foto)

2)
Manage Scripts, Select a script hold your finger and tab outside frame exit with menu key and you have a lock up (Trigger/Function will fix it)
Trigger Configure, Tab and hold one of the flow-boxes while applying one or a couple of tab's to the Buffer Clear frame.... exit with Menu.. main then locked
sometimes several tab's on the Icons recover function but mostly completely locked.

So I think all of these involve using at least 2 fingers on the touch screen at the same time right?  At least I couldn't get my fingers to move fast enough to see any of these without multitouch.  Probably there is an issue with the multitouch process, or at least multitouch should be ignored in these (and no doubt other...) scenarios.  Touch detection is one of the things had had to be almost entirely re-written from the DMM7510 and 2450 series SMUs so it's not terribly surprising to me you've found these errors around there. 

These are getting filed as bugs since they definitely shouldn't happen, but I am a little curious how you found them.  Did you naturally stumble upon these while using the instrument?  Or were you doing your own stress testing?  During development, a lot of our GUI debugging comes from our engineers using the box in scenarios we expect them to be used in.  So I'm just wondering if you (and natually others) are wanting to use the box in a way we didn't expect.  Like do you want something else to happen when you hold an item and touch somewhere else on the screen?  Or did these happen while naturally using the box and then you went back to find the exact cause of the lock-up?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on August 14, 2018, 05:47:52 am
Whoops, some clarifications:

I was accidentally using an older development build when I was confirming elbot's lock-up errors.  I didn't see them at all in the latest development build so you can expect the fix with firmware update coming later this year.

For the startup script for wn1fju, I said there's a downside in that you won't see legitimate startup warnings.  That's not quite true since warnings and errors will cause pop-ups that require you to click something along with event log items.  So you would still see a pop-up if an error or warning occurred.  That startup script just prevents you from seeing informational messages that happen as part of the DMM's default start.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: elbot on August 14, 2018, 05:53:20 am
A new firmware is coming to the website in 1-2 weeks but it is mostly to fix an internal issue.  Expect a new customer focused firmware release in... October I'd guess.  The imminent firmware seems to make a lot of these issues harder to reproduce, but it doesn't directly address any of them, that will be for the later firmware.

wn1fju: Add the attached script to your DMM to remove those messages on startup (You'll have to remove the .txt extension before putting it on your DMM, the forum won't let me upload just .tsp).  All it does is run eventlog.clear() on startup to clear the buffer messages before you see them, you could add that command to your own startup script if you have one.  The only downside with doing this is it will prevent you from seeing any legitimate startup errors should they happen.  The reason those messages happen is that a lot of our customers that use DMMs for logging will run a script based on that 0% filled message.  That message is often used (and is the recommended use case) for the Service Request (SRQ) bit used in IEEE standards.

elbot:
1)
System Events, randomly select events and "empty" pos in the grid... the "OK" dialog  hangs even if you exit with physically Key's it's still present. (see foto)

2)
Manage Scripts, Select a script hold your finger and tab outside frame exit with menu key and you have a lock up (Trigger/Function will fix it)
Trigger Configure, Tab and hold one of the flow-boxes while applying one or a couple of tab's to the Buffer Clear frame.... exit with Menu.. main then locked
sometimes several tab's on the Icons recover function but mostly completely locked.

So I think all of these involve using at least 2 fingers on the touch screen at the same time right?  At least I couldn't get my fingers to move fast enough to see any of these without multitouch.  Probably there is an issue with the multitouch process, or at least multitouch should be ignored in these (and no doubt other...) scenarios.  Touch detection is one of the things had had to be almost entirely re-written from the DMM7510 and 2450 series SMUs so it's not terribly surprising to me you've found these errors around there. 

These are getting filed as bugs since they definitely shouldn't happen, but I am a little curious how you found them.  Did you naturally stumble upon these while using the instrument?  Or were you doing your own stress testing?  During development, a lot of our GUI debugging comes from our engineers using the box in scenarios we expect them to be used in.  So I'm just wondering if you (and natually others) are wanting to use the box in a way we didn't expect.  Like do you want something else to happen when you hold an item and touch somewhere else on the screen?  Or did these happen while naturally using the box and then you went back to find the exact cause of the lock-up?

HI,

Yes you're right, 3 bugs from today was triggered by 2 fingers, first one in natural use next two on purpose because it would make sense it was there too.
All other bugs reported was discovered by "normal" use and I went back to repeat them, so no direct stress-test but 25 years in embedded hardware an especially programming makes it quite easy to trace such bugs down due to the fact that you have a good knowledge of how it works.
 
I'ts easy to touch the screen with 2 fingers if you access it fast and I think its ok to disable this multi finger access to get a stable behavior,
Its a DMM not a piano :)

Credits to you for en open and direct dialog not trying to cover up the fact that fw stability could be improved.

Regards
Claus 



 

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Jens01 on August 14, 2018, 06:16:36 am
At the company i work at we are currently migrating from the 'old' K2700 to the newer DAQ6510, for now in the K2700 emulation mode. IMHO these meters are really great to work with and really a step forward from the K2700. We use the RS232 option card and it was -almost- plug 'n play in our automated measurement setups.

There is one thing which did not migrated properly: external triggering using the Digital I/O connector in K2700 emulation mode. We had to (re)connect the trigger line to the BNC connector on te back of unit to make it work. The migration manual mentions the DIO DB-9 as a valid external trigger source, so @Keithley, are we missing something like an additional configuration? The setup worked flawless with a K2700 unit. Trigger is at 5V TTL level.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: elbot on August 14, 2018, 11:52:13 pm
Whoops, some clarifications:

I was accidentally using an older development build when I was confirming elbot's lock-up errors.  I didn't see them at all in the latest development build so you can expect the fix with firmware update coming later this year.

For the startup script for wn1fju, I said there's a downside in that you won't see legitimate startup warnings.  That's not quite true since warnings and errors will cause pop-ups that require you to click something along with event log items.  So you would still see a pop-up if an error or warning occurred.  That startup script just prevents you from seeing informational messages that happen as part of the DMM's default start.

Great with a new firmware within hopefully short time,
in meantime you can look at this error...  .

Running as Digi I as I often use (actually the reason to buy the DMM) I was fiddling around a bit with buffer-size and sampling rate
to restore things to "normal" by running a script I have used many times before, a few movments later error shows up...

NO fingers on the screen :) and no communications physically attached to the DMM so don't understand the message..

This time I don't have the golden key to trigger the bug and don't spend time on it right now, if you already know the reason.

Regards
Claus





Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: elbot on August 15, 2018, 11:07:42 pm

Couple of bug's today..

Blue Screen Swiping in Diode Function  see DMM6500_Diode Swipe

After working in Diode function, loading a script and this message show up    see DMM6500_remote
DMM are not controlled remotely, hereafter this..     see Error_5738_after_remote
DVM behaves strange so power cycle to get i running again.

I will later report a bug where the DMM stops measuring but still responds to GUI, but out of time for now.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: exe on August 15, 2018, 11:33:46 pm
'old' K2700

If you plan to trash them I can help reducing e-waste :)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on August 17, 2018, 04:39:14 am
There is one thing which did not migrated properly: external triggering using the Digital I/O connector in K2700 emulation mode. We had to (re)connect the trigger line to the BNC connector on te back of unit to make it work.
I see what you're talking about, I couldn't get it to work either.  I know 2700 emulation was tested pretty extensively so I'm not sure if there's a problem with the manual or the emulation mode.  The person who tested it is out this week, so I'll get back to you next week with an update.  I'm glad you were able to get your triggering to work over BNC though!

Running as Digi I as I often use (actually the reason to buy the DMM) I was fiddling around a bit with buffer-size and sampling rate
to restore things to "normal" by running a script I have used many times before, a few movments later error shows up...

NO fingers on the screen :) and no communications physically attached to the DMM so don't understand the message..
This "Communication error" message happens when the main processor talks to something else in the DMM and doesn't get a response back withing its timeout period.  It can sometimes happen when the DMM is busy processing a complex setup command and you send it another one too quickly.  Mostly, the processor handles these holdups itself, but with your lightning fingers, I could see this error happening.  Its rarely a fatal error though and the DMM6500 almost always recovers from it, sometimes without even dropping any commands.

There's another cause that's more common though: Most commands execute sequentially, so they'll always wait for the previous one to finish, but a few, like the trigger model, are overlapped so you can continue executing other commands while they do their own thing.  If you send a command that's not expected or conflicts with the current overlapped command while this is happening, you can get the communication error because the DMM won't know how to respond.  This usually only happens with scripts, which is why the waitcomplete() command exists, front panel operation should automatically wait for the overlapped commands to finish before sending a conflicting command.

The next firmware release will have more advice and help where that "No additional information available" message is now. 

Blue Screen Swiping in Diode Function  see DMM6500_Diode Swipe

After working in Diode function, loading a script and this message show up    see DMM6500_remote
DMM are not controlled remotely, hereafter this..     see Error_5738_after_remote
DVM behaves strange so power cycle to get i running again.
Was this blue screen also caused by selecting the settings shortcut while the swipe screen is moving?  That shortcut works the same in every measurement function so I would expect that bluescreen to be there for each function.

For the other errors, the Communication error message almost certainly comes from the remote control message.  But you say you got this message while you didn't have *any* interface cables attached?  That'll require some more investigation... The DMM should not be able to put itself in remote mode as far as I know.

A few other things:
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: elbot on August 17, 2018, 05:08:48 am

Brad O,

The complexity of most bugs found from now on increases and therefore gets
more and more difficult to trace down... Quite sure the easy ones mostly found now :)
so I will try to use the log function, great with the screenshot function, I properly need an email
to be able to upload files directly to you.

Regards
Claus
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on August 22, 2018, 12:03:07 am
At the company i work at we are currently migrating from the 'old' K2700 to the newer DAQ6510, for now in the K2700 emulation mode. IMHO these meters are really great to work with and really a step forward from the K2700. We use the RS232 option card and it was -almost- plug 'n play in our automated measurement setups.

There is one thing which did not migrated properly: external triggering using the Digital I/O connector in K2700 emulation mode. We had to (re)connect the trigger line to the BNC connector on te back of unit to make it work. The migration manual mentions the DIO DB-9 as a valid external trigger source, so @Keithley, are we missing something like an additional configuration? The setup worked flawless with a K2700 unit. Trigger is at 5V TTL level.
Yep!  That's a bug!  I'm very sorry you had to change your setup.  It's AR61773, it will be fixed in the next firmware release.  DI/O triggering on Pin 6 was initially not supported, so it never made it onto the testing plan.  Later, engineering found out it was possible so the manual was updated to include it, but it still didn't get onto the test plan.  So, an error made it through to the first release that means the DMM never starts listening for the trigger signal on that line. 
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on August 23, 2018, 04:07:21 pm
 Hello Brad O.
 
 Not about bugs, nevertheless hope for your answer.

 In the ref manual there is no mention of the hybrid filter. Please explain differences of various filters in practical use.

 This is important question for me. Appendix C: Performance verification, C-25 page. For 1 Ohm and 10 Ohm resistors typical values 1,000157 and 9,999450 are shown. For the best result it is necessary to accept THESE values, but not 1,000000 and 10,00000?
 By the way, on the C-31 page there is a small disorder for 1A range.

 How I can get calibration results? Does it exist?

 Thanks for good work.
 
 Why this multimeter is called 6 1/2 digits? It can show +/-1.200.000, but not +/-5.999.999 or +/-2.999.999. This is 6 1/12 or 6 1/6 digits DMM.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on August 24, 2018, 03:40:50 am
Sure MikeP, in fact, I would say that I prefer talking about things that aren't bugs!  Hopefully that doesn't bother any entomologists  :D

The Hybrid filter is the same as the moving average filter, but it doesn't return any measurements until the whole filter block fills up for the first time.  This delay's the first measurement, but ensures you never get an unfiltered (or partially filtered) reading.  The reason it's called hybrid is because the first reading acts like the repeat filter, but every reading after that behaves like the moving average filter described on 5-54 in the manual.  This was added for the most recent firmware release and so was included in the 1.0.01f Release Notes, rather than the Reference Manual, it'll be added to the Manual when we put out a new update to it.

The measurements on C-25 are example measurements preformed by our cal lab for the manual.  So the "Typical reference DMM reading" values of 1.000157 and 9.999450 are the actual measured values of the specific resistors we used for the manual example.  You should use your own resistor or calibration source with nominal values of 1 Ohm and 10 Ohms, the actual value should just be close to that, but I don't think it's spec'd how close.  Page C-4 lists the how to find the upper and lower limits, you simply use the accuracy listed in the specification: Actual Value +- (% of actual value + % of range)

For the full calibration report, the best thing to do is be sure to ask for it when you order your unit.  If you got your unit recently, try emailing RMA at tek.com with your model number and serial number (they might need your calibration certificate number too).  They keep the full data for some amount of time so they may still have it.  Otherwise, you will need to ask for the full calibration report the next time you send your unit in.  I think the full data costs a little bit extra for the DMM6500/10, maybe $10?

The 1/2 digit refers to the first digit in the reading, which can be either a 0 or a 1.  So the DMM can read 6 full scale digits, where each can be any number 0-9, and one 1/2 digit that's either a 0 or a 1.  A 1 would be the full scale of the range (i.e. 1.000000V), but most meters let you measure a little above the maximum of the range, often 20% in Keithley equipment.  As far as I know, calling that a half digit is industry standard.  I believe the unofficial formula is fractional digit = (max value)/(number of possible values), I say unofficial because it isn't always true.  Keithley usually uses 1/2 digit to mean a digit that doesn't have a full 0-9 scale, other manufactures do similar.  Even in the DMM6500, some measurements can read more than 1 in the first digit.  Current for example has a 3A range, but it's still considered 6 1/2 digits, using the formula I gave would mean that particular range is 6 3/4 digits.  It would be confusing to list the precise fractional digits for each range and function, so the whole meter is classed as a 6 1/2 digit.

Hopefully that answers your questions?
EDIT: Fixed when the Hybrid filter was released and where it's documented.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on August 27, 2018, 02:10:39 am
 Brad, thanks for your answer. This is great explanation.  :-+
 Can you show some examples of dual measure functions (secondary swipe screen)? I think this is very interesting function. But I don't know how to use that - ref manual without enought info.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on August 28, 2018, 03:24:58 am
Like how people use the secondary measure function?  Well a big one is to measure voltage and current of a circuit at the "same time" (measurement functions are usually separated by physical relays that take time to change).  But you could also diagnose an AC line by measuring the frequency and voltage at the same time, or measure an AC Voltage signal on top of a DC Voltage signal.  You could also measure the voltage to a thermocouple and the temperature of the thermocouple at the same time.  Maybe make a DC current measurement but also measure frequency to detect ground loops or AC noise.  I think there's lots of uses out there, maybe some other people have examples of how they've used a DMM's secondary measure feature?

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on August 29, 2018, 06:37:01 am
 Brad thanks.

 I was very confused with opportunity to set two voltages at the same time. Yes. It does not work.  :)
 For the rest, dual meas. is really very good function.
 Screenshots - burden voltage (front connectors). Some instability in the fuse contact is present. Valid range of 0,3-0,4 Ohms.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on August 30, 2018, 05:50:26 am
  So it turned out that I received this calibration document. I believe that this is useful and interesting for everyone. I do not have much experience using this device. But something seems to be true, and repeated very well.

 Brad, maybe this is not a very stupid recommendation - to make cursors with different colors.

 Thanks.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: analogRF on September 01, 2018, 02:51:06 pm
I am seriously considering buying a DMM6500 after I sold my 34401A and have no bench meter now.
However, I noticed that the test currents in R and C measurements are quite high (much higher than 34411A and even slightly higher than 34401A)
How does it work for in-circuit measurements when troubleshooting? Sometimes I had wrong readings with my 34401A when I did in-circuit resistance measurement and I had to check with my Fluke 289 and it would give a much better result. This meter, however, I suspect will not be very useful for in-circuit troubleshooting.
Can anybody do some tests and give an idea as to how it performs?

one last questions, does it have the auto hold function the same way as 34461A? that meter holds the last 8 readings on screen and updates the last one every time you do a new measurement, that is very useful in troubleshooting
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Octane on September 01, 2018, 11:44:45 pm
Hi analogRF

Serious question: how does the measurement current influence in circuit measurements? If there are multiple path for the current to go (in circuit), how does that change with measurement current (assuming linearity of all involved parts)? Differently asked, why is lower current better?

We always learned: never measure in circuit. You dont know where the current goes and can‘t trust the results.

Thanks,
Michael
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on September 01, 2018, 11:58:52 pm
If everything is linear, it does not matter at which current one measures. However diodes / transistors are not linear and tend to not conduct if the voltage is well below 0.5 V. So at low voltage (low current) chances are a little better to get away with an in circuit resistance / capacitance measurement. One always has to be a little careful about the results and should not expect high accuracy anyway.

With manual range selection, one can just choose a high resistance range to get a low test current - high accuracy is usually not needed anyway.
However auto-ranging is very convenient if one does not know the range before. So ideally one would have a separate setting for high/low Ohms test current.  This might also apply to more normal measurements on resistors of small physical size. The choice of test current is a balance between self heating and low voltage related errors like thermal EMF. In principle this is to a large part a software question.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: analogRF on September 02, 2018, 12:05:27 am
Hi analogRF

Serious question: how does the measurement current influence in circuit measurements? If there are multiple path for the current to go (in circuit), how does that change with measurement current (assuming linearity of all involved parts)? Differently asked, why is lower current better?

We always learned: never measure in circuit. You dont know where the current goes and can‘t trust the results.

Thanks,
Michael

Yes, that's absolutely true and "generally" we never expect to get accurate results by in-circuit measurements, however, a lot of times during troubleshooting we do that for example as a sanity check or to find "open" or get an idea about a capacitor in circuit, etc...now when the test current is too high (and usually the open circuit voltage of the R/C range is also too high if you check their specs) it can strongly forward bias pn junctions in the circuit (around the area of measurement) and thus have too much influence on the result leading to wrong conclusions.  I have personally checked when I used my Fluke 289 instead of 34401A, a lot of the times I would read numbers much closer to what was expected.

I actually remember a specific case when I finally detected an open SMD resistor in circuit (reading a value much higher than its nominal value) when I used my Fluke 289 but my 34401A was giving me an answer which was not that far off and I could not suspect the resistor was open! It wasted my time for a while until I finally found the problem when I switched to my fluke 289
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: analogRF on September 02, 2018, 12:08:53 am
....but still this thing has so many goodies packed in it that makes it very very tempting :-\

34410A/11A/34465A are really the best if low test current and also accurate AC measurements are important.
Keithley ones don't come close in my opinion but now with this DMM6500 they have lot of other advantages over the Keysight ones
including but not limited to their better accuracy in DC and resistance
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HKJ on September 02, 2018, 02:06:36 am
34465A are really the best if low test current and also accurate AC measurements are important.

Is it? I would guess most handheld meters uses about the same test current and much lower voltage voltage.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: analogRF on September 02, 2018, 02:24:03 am
34465A are really the best if low test current and also accurate AC measurements are important.

Is it? I would guess most handheld meters uses about the same test current and much lower voltage voltage.

sorry I was only comparing among 6.5 digit bench meters. yes, hadhelds are better in that particular spec
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on September 02, 2018, 06:51:08 am
 For me, a large current was one of the reasons for buying. Since a large test current is an important part in the accurate measurement of small resistances.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on September 02, 2018, 06:47:34 pm
Small resistors (e.g. 10 Ohms) need a relative high test current - no question here. The problem here is more about larger resistor ranges like 100 K. Here there is a choice of using something like 1 µA to read in a 100 mV range, or use something like 10 µA and read up to 1 V. It is possibly use even more and go up to maybe 10 V.  Here is really depends on the application: sometimes 1 µA is better and sometimes 50 µA could give the best results.

Another point is about how residual voltage (like thermal EMF) are handled: Some meter use a DC current and some measure both with and without current (so kind of low frequency AC). This can also have an effect on how it reacts in circuit. This feature can usually be turned off and may not be used in all ranges. An important point here is that the instructions tell, what way is used, so one knows about possible pitfalls. With the large display it might even be nice to show the used  test current in the display.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: analogRF on September 02, 2018, 11:57:05 pm
yes, my concern was about measuring (roughly) high resistances, say less than 200K or 100K, in-circuit without activating any semiconductor junctions around that point.
I went through the datsheets of several 6.5 digit bench meters and did some simple calculations and here is what I found.
I have come to trust my Fluke 289 at 500K and 5M ranges to be the best for in-circuit testing. So I will compare the bench meters to my Fluke 289 at 500K range. This meter gives 10ohm resolution with 0.5V full scale voltage (1uA) at 500K range. The open circuit voltage of this meter is always 5V

I am not dwelling on the accuracy specs of these meters since it is not that important for this application.

In case of all Agilent 6.5 digits, old and new, it turns out that if I set the range to 10Mohm I get 10 ohm resolution with 5V full scale (0.5uA) which is even better than the fluke 289 at 500K range. At 1Mohm range the resolution is 1ohm at 5V full scale voltage (5uA), so for 100K resistor it will be 0.5V which is too high. So I should have used my 34401A more wisely  :-[

In case of Fluke 8846A and Tek DMM4050 (identical), in 10M range we get 10ohm resolution with 10V full scale voltage (1uA) which is the same as Fluke 289 at 500K range (0.1V for 100k resistor). The open circuit voltage in this range is 13V. The 1M range is not good with 10uA test current

In case of DMM6500, in 10M range we get 10 ohm resolution with 3.5V full scale (0.7uA parallel with 10Mohm input) which is even better than the Fluke 289 at 500K. The open circuit voltage is about 7V.
BTW this meter is excellent for low resistance measurement with 1ohm range and 10mA test current.

So no concerns here  :-+
now I need to find one with reasonable price  |O
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on September 03, 2018, 05:12:36 am
Another point is about how residual voltage (like thermal EMF) are handled: Some meter use a DC current and some measure both with and without current (so kind of low frequency AC). This can also have an effect on how it reacts in circuit. This feature can usually be turned off and may not be used in all ranges. An important point here is that the instructions tell, what way is used, so one knows about possible pitfalls. With the large display it might even be nice to show the used  test current in the display.

 Yes. Quite right. Here IT is called - Offset Compensation. You can enable (or disable) this feature in a range of up to 10 kOhm.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on September 06, 2018, 05:51:41 am
 Today I used a digitizer. It works! The frequency is 100 Hz. Unfortunately, there are some defects. Probably I made a mistake in setting up. It would be interesting to know - how this should work and what recommendations for use.
 
 Thanks.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on September 06, 2018, 08:10:27 am
MikeP:
Probably you set the digitize Count to 1 and went into continuous trigger mode?  When you do that, triggering is handled by the display processor, so when that processor gets busy it will stop triggering and catch up with whatever else it's being told to do (like update the graph image).  That's where those gaps in data are coming from.  A couple ways around this come to mind:

analogRF:
You seem to have figured out your test current question yourself, but I don't think anyone answered you on the hold functionality.  The DMM6500 doesn't have an exact equal to the 34461's probe hold feature, but it's easy enough to reproduce through scripting or a trigger model.  Tell you what, if you get a DMM6500, I'll write something for you myself ;D
EDIT: Also in regards to AC measurement accuracy, the DMM6500 has a brand new AC measurement architecture from the model 2000 that performs much better, the specs are fairly conservative there too.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: analogRF on September 06, 2018, 08:19:18 am

analogRF:
You seem to have figured out your test current question yourself, but I don't think anyone answered you on the hold functionality.  The DMM6500 doesn't have an exact equal to the 34461's probe hold feature, but it's easy enough to reproduce through scripting or a trigger model.  Tell you what, if you get a DMM6500, I'll write something for you myself ;D

Thanks! Finally that's the answer I was looking for  :) I have even asked the Tek support about the same thing and waiting for them to reply.
Reading a bit through the manual I thought that it might be possible with all those trigger models although I cannot figure out how.
Have no idea how the scripting works...

Have you tried to write something to emulate this? I am stunned they have not implemented this simple and very useful feature
in this sophisticated device. Even 2015 had this and all Keysight meters or even Rigol have it. There you can even adjust the threshold
for triggering to read a new value when you probe again. I have used it a lot and I am very used to it and I really want my new meter to have this.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on September 06, 2018, 08:31:00 am
I haven't done anything exactly like the probe hold, I typically use the graph when I'd need similar functionality.  I think someone around here was working on a script that did it though...
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on September 07, 2018, 06:08:57 am

... There you can even adjust the threshold for triggering to read a new value when you probe again...


 :-+
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: olkipukki on September 07, 2018, 08:11:52 am
  • The transformer hum a lot of people have mentioned is a manufacturing defect that affected some DMMs on the first run, it's been fixed in the later builds.  You can contact your service center about getting it fixed, they should all be aware of the issue.  I'm not sure the exact percentage of affected units, but that's why some people have said they didn't notice it.  In general, please always reach to Tek service if you notice something that seems unreasonable about operation, mistakes do happen...


If there any Tek reference can be used for this issue?

I got DAQ6510 recently and it's much worse :( than DMM6500, planning to return both units... to be fixed and or replaced.

Thanks
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on September 07, 2018, 06:55:34 pm
@ Brad O
What is the current state of shipped DMM6500?
I am interested in buying one but only if all Hardware problems have been solved, like the transformer humm.
When can we expect a new firmware that will solve the software issues?
Thanks for an honest answer.



Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on September 08, 2018, 04:02:06 am
I'm sorry to hear that olkipukki... All the team here believes the transformer hum to be entirely solved, so there shouldn't be any new units going out with it.  We personally checked a few dozen units here a couple weeks ago and didn't find any issues (we didn't get them to check for issues, but did while we had them), so you should contact Tek support if you're seeing an abnormally loud hum.  As for a reference number, I think it was handled in manufacturing since it wasn't a design defect and they seem to use their own issue tracking system.  I'll keep looking but Tek support should know of the issue if you report it with them.  Did you get your DAQ6510 from a distributor?  They could have sent an older serial number from before the manufacturing fix was implemented.  Tek support will know at which serial number the problem was diagnosed and fixed.  Looking through our tracking system, I don't think there have been any design related hardware problems since release, and the transformer hum, while annoying, didn't affect measurements. 

HighVoltage: A new firmware release is planned for later this year.  It's a bit of a longer schedule than a typical new product firmware release as we have some special things planned for it.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: analogRF on September 08, 2018, 04:06:33 am
HighVoltage: A new firmware release is planned for later this year.  It's a bit of a longer schedule than a typical new product firmware release as we have some special things planned for it.

could that include the reading hold feature  ;)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on September 08, 2018, 07:15:24 am
I'm not gonna lie, adding a reading hold to the main firmware is not terribly high on the priority list right now.  But maybe I can come up with something for you in a couple weeks... :-X
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: julius79 on September 08, 2018, 07:45:20 am
Im on market for 6 1/2 dig bench dmm. Where in UK,Europe i may get one for a clearance or a very good offer ,sale please ?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: helgel on September 10, 2018, 04:50:28 pm
Tektronix has a comparison between Keithley DMM6500 and Keysight 34461A here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT9Zpcsc57k. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jT9Zpcsc57k.) Maybe not a unbiased comparison, but might be useful for some.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HKJ on September 27, 2018, 09:47:25 pm
I just got the DMM6500 with software V1.0.02a
The 10uA DC range do not have a 20% overload margin, it goes into overload at 10uA, not at 12uA
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on September 28, 2018, 02:31:05 am
The 10uA DC range do not have a 20% overload margin, it goes into overload at 10uA, not at 12uA

I just checked my DMM with 1.0.02a and was able to measure up to the 20% overrange without issue. Is it possible you're measuring a noisy signal?  If you have overranging spikes on your signal, the DMM will clip those readings and average the signal lower than it actually is.  You could check this by manually ranging up to see if you get what you expect or using the Digitize current function to see if there are any spikes present. 
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HKJ on September 28, 2018, 02:44:31 am
The 10uA DC range do not have a 20% overload margin, it goes into overload at 10uA, not at 12uA

I just checked my DMM with 1.0.02a and was able to measure up to the 20% overrange without issue. Is it possible you're measuring a noisy signal?  If you have overranging spikes on your signal, the DMM will clip those readings and average the signal lower than it actually is.  You could check this by manually ranging up to see if you get what you expect or using the Digitize current function to see if there are any spikes present.

Very strange, I am trying it again now and it works perfectly.
I am using my 2460 as source and it is computer controlled with a special DMM test program I have made for checking DMM's. This makes it very unlikely I did a mistake before, but I did not try turning off-on the DMM6500 when it had trouble.

I did try locking it in 10uA range, where it flickered in and out of overload, I also tried with filter, it did not help either.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HKJ on September 28, 2018, 11:58:20 pm
I have been playing some more with the meter and got a couple of blue-screen while doing screen dumps:

(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/Keithley/DMM6500/DSC_2465.jpg)

I also wonder what the purpose of the ENTER key is, I have not found any use for it. On models with a encoder wheel it has purpose.

When doing math it would be nice if the secondary value could be the same value without any math applied.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on September 29, 2018, 03:20:34 am
I have been playing some more with the meter and got a couple of blue-screen while doing screen dumps:
As in you saw blue screens while taking a screenshot? Do you have any other info on how you got them?

I also wonder what the purpose of the ENTER key is, I have not found any use for it.
The ENTER key does behave like a touch most of the time, it selects whatever's highlighted on the screen and also enters values for pop-up dialogs. The DMM6500's frame comes from our SMUs which do have an encoder wheel, so it's also a bit of a hold-over from those instruments as well.  I suppose I mainly use it for screenshots. 

When doing math it would be nice if the secondary value could be the same value without any math applied.
So you'd like a second buffer that records (for example) mV while the main buffer records %?  That seems reasonable, I'm not sure if there's a reason that wasn't done besides no one thought to do it.  I filed it as a requested feature, AR61921.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HKJ on September 29, 2018, 03:27:23 am
I have been playing some more with the meter and got a couple of blue-screen while doing screen dumps:
As in you saw blue screens while taking a screenshot? Do you have any other info on how you got them?

Not much more info, I was on the mains screens, it happened on the statistic (twice) and on the settings screen.

When doing math it would be nice if the secondary value could be the same value without any math applied.
So you'd like a second buffer that records (for example) mV while the main buffer records %?  That seems reasonable, I'm not sure if there's a reason that wasn't done besides no one thought to do it.  I filed it as a requested feature, AR61921.

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on September 29, 2018, 03:39:45 am
I have been playing some more with the meter and got a couple of blue-screen while doing screen dumps:
As in you saw blue screens while taking a screenshot? Do you have any other info on how you got them?
Not much more info, I was on the mains screens, it happened on the statistic (twice) and on the settings screen.
Is there anything else on that flash drive?  One of our co-ops remembered seeing a bug during development where the DMM would sometimes crash after having the flash drive inserted for some time.  He believed it was related to what files were on the drive but doesn't know what file would've caused it since he erased the drive.  We haven't seen anything like that since then, and there's not an obvious reason why any process that reads the flash drive would cause a crash, but it's something to go on.  If there are other files on it, could you PM me a list of the file names and extensions (NOT the contents)?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: maukka on September 29, 2018, 03:44:24 am
I've seen similar things happen on some AV equipment with USB drives with long folder names. several nested folders or special characters in files or folders.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HKJ on September 29, 2018, 03:46:24 am
If there are other files on it, could you PM me a list of the file names and extensions (NOT the contents)?

Lot of files, I have send a PM.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on September 30, 2018, 10:05:50 pm

I also wonder what the purpose of the ENTER key is, I have not found any use for it. On models with a encoder wheel it has purpose.

I would suspect that HOME and ENTER pressed simultaneously would save a screen shot to the USB thumb drive like on the DMM7510?
But besides this function, I have not used the ENTER knob on the DMM7510.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HKJ on September 30, 2018, 10:11:51 pm
I would suspect that HOME and ENTER pressed simultaneously would save a screen shot to the USB thumb drive like on the DMM7510?
But besides this function, I have not used the ENTER knob on the DMM7510.

On 7510 and other Keithley equipment with encoder wheel you can use the wheel and enter instead of the touchscreen, but 6500 do not have an encoder wheel.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on October 13, 2018, 04:32:45 am
Hey @analogRF I don’t know if you’ve bought a 6500 yet, but I put together that Probe hold script for you and anyone else (@MikeP).  Also see the end for news on firmware.

It uses the App interface of the DMM so it behaves a little differently from a normal script.  I put together some info below.

INSTRUCTIONS:
1.   Download the attached file and change the .txt ending to .tspa
2.   Make sure your DMM’s command set is set to TSP in MENU > Settings
3.   Put the script on a USB drive and insert into the DMM
4.   Press the APPS key and go to the USB tab
5.   You can either run the script here, or save it to local memory first (it will be added to local memory automatically)
6.   Click Run

DESCRIPTION:
The app adds a swipe screen to the home screen that detects stable readings and displays them on screen.  The big reading is still what the DMM is currently measuring.  There is a delete button to remove the last reading and a settings button, described below.  All readings ever displayed are stored in a separate buffer, called App_buffer, that can be exported just like any other buffer.  defbuffer1 holds all the readings the DMM takes, like normal, so you can go back and review the exact measurements taken (though defbuffer1 clears when you change functions).  Most functions are supported, the ones NOT supported are digitizing, temperature, continuity, or diode.  You can swipe off the probe hold, but no measurements will take place while you’re away from it.

SETTINGS:POWER USERS:
I wrote the app using the TSP language, which is pretty easy to follow as far as programming languages go.  There are some Global Settings towards the bottom of the script that act as defaults (except for $mcount, which is not adjustable "in app", and sets the measure count).  You’ll see some TODO statements of features I want to add in the future, or places where I know things need to be improved. 

BUGS:
I made this in my spare time so I’m 100% sure it has bugs in it, there’s a few I’m even aware of but haven’t had time to fix yet.  If you find one though, or have an idea for how you’d like the app to work differently, you can comment over at this thread on the Tek forum (https://forum.tek.com/viewtopic.php?f=617&t=141115) (It’s not like I won’t read it if you post here though…)  For one, it doesn’t quit gracefully, if you want to close this app I recommend restarting your DMM, there are lots of ways closing it will lead to blue screens or lock-ups.  Most of those issues require a firmware change to fix, and there are things I’d like this app to do which also require a firmware change.  That brings me to…

NEW FIRMWARE:
I’ve been told by the project manager that a new firmware will now not be coming until early next year.  It’s involved a lot of backend work and it’s simply taken longer than thought to get it ready.  I’ll let you all know a firm release date as soon as I get one. 

*EDIT: I changed the attached file since the first one I had accidentally had the wrong firmware listed as a requirement.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: analogRF on October 13, 2018, 05:26:40 am
Hi @Brad O
Thank you so much for following this up.
No, I havent been able to buy it (yet?) as it is still out of my price range
I tried to find a used 8846A or DMM4050 instead but no luck so far.
I even contacted Tek for a refurbished (or even defective !) DMM6500 but no answer.

But I am sure if I ever manage to buy this baby, this program definitely helps
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on October 16, 2018, 06:06:27 am
 I briefly tried PROBE HOLD script. I think this script not final product and it has some defects. But it very usable – now multimeter can collect and hold several measurements. You even shouldn’t see the screen: beep-charger, beep-aux, beep-pump, beep-inverter. Very good. Brad many thanks!
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: analogRF on October 16, 2018, 06:12:02 am
looks very good  |O
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: exe on October 17, 2018, 01:31:27 am
Is it possible to a small gap each three decades? Like on keysight instruments (notice a gap after "0.634": https://www.keysight.com/en/pdx-2891615-pn-34461A/digital-multimeter-6-digit-truevolt-dmm?cc=NL&lc=dut (https://www.keysight.com/en/pdx-2891615-pn-34461A/digital-multimeter-6-digit-truevolt-dmm?cc=NL&lc=dut) .
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HKJ on October 19, 2018, 01:35:30 am
I bought a 6500 meter sometime ago and decided to do a review of it before it got stuffed into my test setup.

It is a fairly long review: http://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMKeithley%20DMM6500%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMKeithley%20DMM6500%20UK.html)

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on October 19, 2018, 03:14:03 am
I bought a 6500 meter sometime ago and decided to do a review of it before it got stuffed into my test setup.

It is a fairly long review: http://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMKeithley%20DMM6500%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMKeithley%20DMM6500%20UK.html)

Very nice review of the DMM6500.
I also looked at your other great DMM reviews, you put lots of work in to this.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on October 20, 2018, 06:44:16 am
Is it possible to a small gap each three decades? Like on keysight instruments (notice a gap after "0.634": https://www.keysight.com/en/pdx-2891615-pn-34461A/digital-multimeter-6-digit-truevolt-dmm?cc=NL&lc=dut (https://www.keysight.com/en/pdx-2891615-pn-34461A/digital-multimeter-6-digit-truevolt-dmm?cc=NL&lc=dut) .
On the main display: that is not possible right now, for the probe hold app: yes, I can add an option for small spacing in the next release.

I bought a 6500 meter sometime ago and decided to do a review of it before it got stuffed into my test setup.

It is a fairly long review: http://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMKeithley%20DMM6500%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMKeithley%20DMM6500%20UK.html)
Thank you for the review!  One thing I wanted to point out though, the KickStart software you talk about actually comes free when you purchase a 6500/6510 (this is true anywhere, not just in the US).  You should contact whoever you purchased your DMM from and ask for your free KICKSTARTFL-BASE license.  You may need to provide your unit's serial number too.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HKJ on October 20, 2018, 06:14:47 pm
One thing I wanted to point out though, the KickStart software you talk about actually comes free when you purchase a 6500/6510 (this is true anywhere, not just in the US).  You should contact whoever you purchased your DMM from and ask for your free KICKSTARTFL-BASE license.  You may need to provide your unit's serial number too.

I will do that next week.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on October 22, 2018, 08:15:55 am
 Once I got efficiency of my converter over 100% (actually about 98%). I thought: the perpetual motion machine and Nobel Prize it is good, but … I need more precision tools. The most significant error is a current measurement and current shunt is a great toy. I considered some resistors (other story) and DMMs. Keithley 6500 has 1 Ohm range, therefore has better accuracy than Keysight 34461/5 (lower range 100 Ohm).

 Here comparison of specifications (10 mOhm/1 year)
 Keysight 34461: 1uOhm (reading) + 4mOhm (range) = +/-4,001 mOhm. Accuracy: +/-40%.
 Keysight 34465: 0,6uOhm (reading) + 4mOhm (range) = +/-4,0006 mOhm. Accuracy: +/-40%.
 Keithley 6500: 0,85uOhm (reading) + 200uOhm (range) = +/-0,20085 mOhm. Accuracy: +/-2%.

 Here one more comparison of specifications (1 mOhm/1 year):
 Keysight 34461: 0,1uOhm (reading) + 4mOhm (range) = +/-4,001 mOhm. Accuracy: +/-400%.
 Keysight 34465: 0,06uOhm (reading) + 4mOhm (range) = +/-4,0006 mOhm. Accuracy: +/-400%.
 Keithley 6500: 0,085uOhm (reading) + 200uOhm (range) = +/-0,20085 mOhm. Accuracy: +/-20%.
 So I got DMM6500.

 I understand that the actual accuracy is much better.  I will show calibrations data report of my multimeter once again.
 Measurement of 10 Ohm and 1 Ohm at calibration:
 1 Ohm. Spec. accuracy: +/-285uOhm. Actual error: - 5 uOhm, uncertainty: 31 uOhm.
 10 Ohm. Spec. accuracy: +/-1005uOhm. Actual error: - 50 uOhm, uncertainty: 140 uOhm.
 Unfortunately, any data for smaller resistance it is not provided. I decided to make experiment: measurement of low resistance - 10 Ohm, 1 Ohm, 100 mOhm, 10 mOhm and 1 mOhm.

 Less than 3 months after cal. I made special cable for experiment: teflon shielded + crimped connectors. All measurements repeated many times. Durations: 0.5-2 hours. Tamb - 21-23C. Settings: NPLC - 12, repeat filter count - 100, autozero ON, power sync ON … Later I will show a difference between other settings
Resistors inaccuracy not considered (better than 0.01%). I consider the resistor like an absolutely precise - I do not know the actual resistance, and it does not matter at all.

 My modest experience does not allow commenting on these data, I can’t speak about uncertainty of measurements and more difficult aspects. I understand the difficulty of measuring low resistance. I will be very grateful for any comments.
 This is just data:
10 Ohm. Spec error: +/-0,0105%. Measured range: 9,999611-9,999625. Error:-0.0039%.
1 Ohm. Spec error: +/-0,0285%. Measured range: 0,9999636-0,999962. Error:-0.0038%.
100 mOhm. Spec error: +/-0,2085%. Measured range: 99.99736-99.99858. Error:-0.0027%.
10 mOhm. Spec error: +/-2,0085%. Measured range: 10,00009-10,00070. Error: +0.007%.
1 mOhm. Spec error: +/-20%. Measured range: 999,5403-999,9838. Error:-0.046%.

 Conclusion:  :clap: and now I have opportunity to create my own precision shunt.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: sstepane on October 24, 2018, 07:06:34 pm
One thing I wanted to point out though, the KickStart software you talk about actually comes free when you purchase a 6500/6510 (this is true anywhere, not just in the US).  You should contact whoever you purchased your DMM from and ask for your free KICKSTARTFL-BASE license.  You may need to provide your unit's serial number too.
Hi Brad,

This is very nice to find out that unlike Keysight, customers can use get free software for a device of this level. I've been trying to contact with a seller (which is Farnell) and now they ask "Where I heard about free software" and I don't know how to answer. I've provided SN, order number, confirmation number, now they ask the exact company purchased the device (it was an agent from my country) and I'm not sure I understand where it is leading as why do they even care about all this information since S/N is traceable and a license (I think) is tied to the device... Could You help with this please?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: PTR_1275 on October 24, 2018, 07:55:57 pm
I bought a DMM6500 from the local dealer here in Australia. Before I even have the meter in my hands (delivery due tomorrow), I have a email about the software in my emails.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: sstepane on October 24, 2018, 08:01:38 pm
I bought a DMM6500 from the local dealer here in Australia. Before I even have the meter in my hands (delivery due tomorrow), I have a email about the software in my emails.
I have found no info on the web regarding this. On top of that - I've bought it via an agent, Farnel routed my request to their local office responsible, which, unfortunately, is in Russia and they do not seem to be eager to help in any case - "we do not support third parties"...
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: exe on October 24, 2018, 08:13:30 pm
I wonder why software is not readily available for downloading to avoid all the trouble with contacting distributor, etc. If it needs to be tight to the device, a registration form can pop up during the first run.

But I'd say avoid overcomplicated purchase verification process, requiring persistent Internet connection, etc.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: chalgoguma on October 25, 2018, 02:50:27 am
Just now, after registered my DMM6500 in Tektronix site, I got Kickstart 2 base license. (I bought DMM6500 in 5-23-2018)
I saw "Redeem" link after registering serial key, and I can generated license key using host id which got from Kickstart 2  ;D

Brad, Thank for good information.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: sstepane on October 25, 2018, 03:59:04 am
Just now, after registered my DMM6500 in Tektronix site, I got Kickstart 2 base license. (I bought DMM6500 in 5-23-2018)
I saw "Redeem" link after registering serial key, and I can generated license key using host id which got from Kickstart 2  ;D

Brad, Thank for good information.
Thanks for the tip. Will try this approach.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on October 25, 2018, 08:18:23 am
Special offer for new registered products only? For my already registered DMM6500 redeem not offered. So I re-registered multimeter, redeem is appear but then OOOOOOOOOOOOPS...
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: PTR_1275 on October 26, 2018, 02:49:47 am
So I got my nice shiny new DMM6500, powered it up on the bench, connected it to my EDC Voltage display, was reading 100mV with the graph on the lower section of the screen, pressed menu and it blue screened.

Haven't been able to get it to do it again since.

Fw 1.0.02a which I can't even see on the Tek website.

Any idea when the next FW will be released?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: sstepane on October 26, 2018, 11:42:38 pm
Hi,

Finally have got the license. Had a small issue, because I've had previously installed trial beta version, so it took one business day for tek.com to fix it. It's really easier to go via device registration and redeem of the license.
Thanks for the tip on this!

And, of course, it is very nice of Keithley to provide free license for DMM6500 owners!
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: branadic on October 27, 2018, 12:22:10 am
I don't want to be pessimistic, but it somewhat feels like beta test is done on the customer. Is this the new strategy at Keithley since they are part of Danaher group, to decrease time to market and development time?

-branadic-
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: PTR_1275 on October 27, 2018, 04:14:07 am
Another blue screen. This time trying to full screen the graph view.

Anyone having major issues with the auto range in 2w resistance?

I have a coil, measures ~8.6 ohms. If it’s in auto, the range relay is constantly cycling (10 times a second maybe). Manual range to 10 ohms and it’s fine, no over range. Now if I put it into auto, it is fine. If I remove a lead and reccomend it, back to the beginning.

It’s a 600 turn coil I use for checking clamp meters.

Is there any way to rearrange the lower screens? I don’t need secondary temp measurement and I find myself using screen 1, 3 and 5 the most.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on October 29, 2018, 06:00:06 am
 I promised to show the difference between the settings. This is a small comparison of "fast" and "slow" settings.

 1 mOhm at "fast" settings (5NPLC, filter 10, 27 readings or 2 min): + 0.0423%
 “Slow” measurements (12NPLC, filter 100, 0,5-1 hour): -0.046% (worst case).


 Another experiment was performed with a 10 mOhm.
 Small quantity of readings, 10 separate measurements (5NPLC, filter 10, 10 readings or 40 sec):  +/- 0.024% (worst case).
 “Slow” measurements (12NPLC, filter 100, 0,5-1 hour): +0.007% (worst case).

  I think this is evidence of low 1/f noise or small thermal fluctuations.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: evava on October 29, 2018, 07:24:42 pm
Anyone having major issues with the auto range in 2w resistance?

I have a coil, measures ~8.6 ohms. If it’s in auto, the range relay is constantly cycling (10 times a second maybe). Manual range to 10 ohms and it’s fine, no over range. Now if I put it into auto, it is fine. If I remove a lead and reccomend it, back to the beginning.

It’s a 600 turn coil I use for checking clamp meters.

It is a coil. Some coil with certain properties (L and R) can confuse certain meters at autoranging - it is not so unusual behaviour. Meter gives different current at different ranges, and coil answers to that change of current by changing voltage on it, and meter answers to the change of voltage by change of range, and so on for ever.  It is difficult to settle that if worst conditions occur. That's one reason why there's still manual ranging at all meters.

And sorry to ask, but how exactly you are checking clamp meters with 600 turn coil (except demagnetize).
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HKJ on October 30, 2018, 12:55:21 am
I will do that next week.

I contacted my supplied and asked them about the free Kickstarter offer, they would investigate and return. This is now one week ago and I have not gotten any response yet.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on October 30, 2018, 06:23:04 am
Okay let's see if I can address everything...

I wonder why software is not readily available for downloading to avoid all the trouble with contacting distributor, etc. If it needs to be tight to the device, a registration form can pop up during the first run.
This has a lot to do with how our relations with distributors work, the software is really tied to the sale not the instrument.  When you buy from a distributor, you don't interact with Keithley or Tektronix at all, so unless you buy 1000 of something, we won't find out who bought what.  That's why the software promotion goes through the distributor. 

Just now, after registered my DMM6500 in Tektronix site, I got Kickstart 2 base license. (I bought DMM6500 in 5-23-2018)
I saw "Redeem" link after registering serial key, and I can generated license key using host id which got from Kickstart 2  ;D
So this is a separate promotion running right now where you can get KickStart 2 free for registering ANY currently compatible product (see the list here: https://www.tek.com/keithley-kickstart (https://www.tek.com/keithley-kickstart)), I think this runs through the end of the year, it just started last week or thereabouts.  This is not the same thing as getting a license when you purchase a DMM6500 or 6510. 

So I got my nice shiny new DMM6500, powered it up on the bench, connected it to my EDC Voltage display, was reading 100mV with the graph on the lower section of the screen, pressed menu and it blue screened.

Haven't been able to get it to do it again since.

Fw 1.0.02a which I can't even see on the Tek website.

Any idea when the next FW will be released?
What do you mean connected to a EDC Voltage display?  Like you were measuring voltage across one of those LED displays?  If you see the blue screen again see if you can catch the code it gives, that can help us find any issues. 
FW 1.0.02a is the same is 1.0.01f, it has 2-3 behind the scenes changes to address some manufacturing problems, but doesn't affect user experience at all.  Current DMMs are shipping with 02a, but there's no reason to upgrade to it after it leaves manufacturing, so that's why it's not on the website.  The next firmware will come in early 2019.

I don't want to be pessimistic, but it somewhat feels like beta test is done on the customer. Is this the new strategy at Keithley since they are part of Danaher group, to decrease time to market and development time?
I understand your frustration, believe me, I don't like finding bugs in things I buy either.  But, we never treat a release as a beta.  Fortive (who split off from Danaher and owns us now) honestly doesn't have that much input on product development, their philosophy is luckily much more of a hands off approach.  The thing is, Keithley itself is and has always been a small company.  That approach is good for some reasons, we get tighter control over the scope of our products for example.  But it also has its negatives in that large releases like the DMM6500/DAQ6510 can put a strain on our resources.   Also, a lot of the bugs reported here are pretty obscure things that take a long time for us to even replicate.  So I wouldn't say we treat releases like betas, but bugs do slip through.

Anyone having major issues with the auto range in 2w resistance?

I have a coil, measures ~8.6 ohms. If it’s in auto, the range relay is constantly cycling (10 times a second maybe). Manual range to 10 ohms and it’s fine, no over range. Now if I put it into auto, it is fine. If I remove a lead and reccomend it, back to the beginning.

It’s a 600 turn coil I use for checking clamp meters.

Is there any way to rearrange the lower screens? I don’t need secondary temp measurement and I find myself using screen 1, 3 and 5 the most.
As evava said, that sounds like the inductance is causing an issue with autorange since ohm measurement uses a current source.  Changing ranges disconnects the current source briefly, so if the coil isn't at equilibrium, I could see that inductive kickback causing problems with the circuitry.  I would say the solution to that is leave it in manual range. 

The lower swipe screens can't be reconfigured from the front panel.  But, here's the TSP commands to delete the 2nd and 4th swipes if you don't want them:
display.delete(display.SCREEN_SECONDARY_SWIPE)
display.delete(display.SCREEN_SETTINGS_SWIPE)

You can add these commands to an autoexec.tsp file and load it to the instrument to remove these screens on startup.  Also these commands aren't documented anywhere yet (so you didn't miss anything) as they're part of the application API that's still changing quite a bit until the next firmware release.  To bring the screens back you can use
display.create(display.SCREEN_HOME, display.OBJ_SWIPE, display.SCREEN_SETTINGS_SWIPE)
display.create(display.SCREEN_HOME, display.OBJ_SWIPE, display.SCREEN_SECONDARY_SWIPE)


I contacted my supplied and asked them about the free Kickstarter offer, they would investigate and return. This is now one week ago and I have not gotten any response yet.
I'd ask you to wait one more week and then message me with your details and I will look into either getting you a license another way or reaching out to your distributor on your behalf.  In fact, maybe you should send a follow up email and tell them you've been talking with a Tektronix rep so they know you're serious.  In the mean time, you have access to the trial version right?  The trial version has no limitations other than the time limit. 
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HKJ on October 30, 2018, 07:29:14 am
I contacted my supplied and asked them about the free Kickstarter offer, they would investigate and return. This is now one week ago and I have not gotten any response yet.
I'd ask you to wait one more week and then message me with your details and I will look into either getting you a license another way or reaching out to your distributor on your behalf.  In fact, maybe you should send a follow up email and tell them you've been talking with a Tektronix rep so they know you're serious.  In the mean time, you have access to the trial version right?  The trial version has no limitations other than the time limit.

I have already told them "Keithley Apps Engineer" when they asked where I had got information about the offer. I will take it easy another week.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: nictinkers on November 02, 2018, 10:27:10 pm
I've recently changed jobs from a workplace where I had a Keysight 34461A on my bench to one with a DMM6500. I'd say that the DMM6500 has better specifications for the price but isn't necessarily as nice to live with.

The 34461A came with a nice probe set, the DMM6500 only a pair of decidedly middle-of-the-road probes. The 34461A is a much shorter unit. The DM6500, with cables out the back, measures in at around 400 mm. You need a deep desk to sit this somewhere comfortable.

There's a lot about the DMM6500 that indicates it was designed to sit in a rack as a piece of process equipment rather than on an engineer's bench. The 10A jack is only available at the back (the 34461A has it only available at the front). The input jacks are laid out differently on the front and back, which is not at all a big deal but feels anti-human.

Somebody else has mentioned that the 34461A main display separates digits in thousands. I wish the default buffers were called something more like "Buffer 1/2" or "Main Buffer" and "Secondary Buffer" rather than "defbuffer1/2". Why does the trigger mode have to be in all caps when nothing else at the top of the screen is? It's little touches like that that add up to make the Keysight feel more polished.

I'm not at all a fan of the DMM6500 touchscreen - I find the ergonomics of trying to swipe horizontally or vertically on a small, upright screen really poor, and I don't like leaving fingerprints on the screen. I wish more functionality had been made available with physical buttons.

I don't think the front panel is particularly attractive. I'm pretty sure this one was designed after the 7510 and they've made some improvements - the buttons look more balanced on either side of the screen, for example, but it's still a mess of different fonts and logos, poorly distinguished buttons and strange alignments. Why does the Ω look like it comes from a seriffed font? The screen doesn't feel vertically centred on the unit, giving it a slightly enlarged forehead.

The red strip on the top right should be the same height and vertical location as the red of the Keithley logo, for pity's sake - instead it's placed half under the rubber surround, constantly reminding me that the meter is meant to be sitting in a rack without the rubber surround attached rather than on my bench. The model number box should be aligned with the red strip and logo as well. The lurid green would make sense if it was sitting in a rack or stack to help you quickly identify the instrument but on the bench just stands out as clashing visual colour and noise.

I'm disappointed that there's no temperature sensor at the input jacks for thermocouple CJC compensation. That feels like it would have been such a cheap feature to add. Also that the instrument doesn't measure voltage and current simultaneously. It would have been really nice to be able to measure power, power factor, VA, VAR, even at some much lower resolution and accuracy than the main ADC. The capacitance range tops out at 120 µF. There's no measurement of capacitor ESR and you can't measure inductance. I'm not saying that competitive units have these features, (as I recall, the 34461A didn't even measure capacitance when it was first released) just that I think I expect more from a high-end bench multimeter released in 2018.

I've complained a lot, and about a lot of little things. I know that makes my opinion of this meter sound worse than it actually is. There are awesome things about this meter that I really like. Unlike posters here, I haven't managed to see a single blue screen. The quick setup slider (resolution vs speed) is a nice utility. The connectivity is great and the web interface is responsive. The scripting is only going to get more and more useful as more examples are published. A steady trickle of firmware releases indicating that the product is still being improved and responsive support greatly increase its value.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MrFox on November 05, 2018, 12:55:27 pm
It doesn't have "dry circuit" voltage limits on the low ohm ranges, only the 7510 and the 2010 seem to have this option?
I was wondering if it could be added later in firmware, or in scripting, or whether it's an actual hardware limitation on the 6500.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on November 06, 2018, 05:10:15 am
It doesn't have "dry circuit" voltage limits on the low ohm ranges, only the 7510 and the 2010 seem to have this option?
I was wondering if it could be added later in firmware, or in scripting, or whether it's an actual hardware limitation on the 6500.
The 3706A is another instrument with dry circuit measurement, I think that's the only 3 we offer with dedicated dry circuit modes.  The DMM6500/DAQ6510 don't have the hardware required to do dry circuit testing, so that's a feature that can't be added in later (without a new model number).  It was looked at, but the team decided the cost for adding that one feature would've been too great. 

@nictinkers, thank you for the feedback!  I'm sorry you don't care for a lot of the design, but really, we do take all the feedback we can get to heart. 
Also that the instrument doesn't measure voltage and current simultaneously. It would have been really nice to be able to measure power, power factor, VA, VAR, even at some much lower resolution and accuracy than the main ADC.
Not exactly what you really want I think, which would require 2 full ADCs, but the DMM6500 can measure power with the voltage ratio function like the other DMMs in its class.  One of our engineers wrote a small script to simplify the process a bit, the script and the full description are here: https://forum.tek.com/viewtopic.php?f=617&t=141154,
here's a video he's been putting together for it too:
https://youtu.be/oWTTrA20M0w
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MrFox on November 06, 2018, 12:10:45 pm
The 3706A is another instrument with dry circuit measurement, I think that's the only 3 we offer with dedicated dry circuit modes.  The DMM6500/DAQ6510 don't have the hardware required to do dry circuit testing, so that's a feature that can't be added in later (without a new model number).  It was looked at, but the team decided the cost for adding that one feature would've been too great.
Thank you for your answer.

As a compromise, is there anything which would prevent me from doing the following hack as a TSP script?
- Connect an external high stability 2 ohm in parallel with DUT (open would be 20mV on the 1 and 10 ohm ranges?)
- Measure the 2 ohm alone, store the value
- Deduce the DUT and display only the calculated value

One caveat is that pecision would become exponentially worse above 2 ohms,  but that's all I need anyway for small signal relay contacts.


Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on November 07, 2018, 01:54:13 am
The 3706A is another instrument with dry circuit measurement, I think that's the only 3 we offer with dedicated dry circuit modes.  The DMM6500/DAQ6510 don't have the hardware required to do dry circuit testing, so that's a feature that can't be added in later (without a new model number).  It was looked at, but the team decided the cost for adding that one feature would've been too great.
As a compromise, is there anything which would prevent me from doing the following hack as a TSP script?
- Connect an external high stability 2 ohm in parallel with DUT (open would be 20mV on the 1 and 10 ohm ranges?)
- Measure the 2 ohm alone, store the value
- Deduce the DUT and display only the calculated value

One caveat is that pecision would become exponentially worse above 2 ohms,  but that's all I need anyway for small signal relay contacts.
In fact, that's exactly the type of thing TSP scripting was designed for!  For your test setup, I think that should work fine, I'm sure you know more about the measurement than I do.  Be sure to only use manual ranging and only ever switch in the dry resistance while the DMM is already measuring the 2 ohm resistor.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: nictinkers on November 07, 2018, 07:02:54 pm
@nictinkers, thank you for the feedback!  I'm sorry you don't care for a lot of the design, but really, we do take all the feedback we can get to heart.

I rather hope you don't take it too close to heart - I know it can really suck to have something you worked hard on criticised.

Not exactly what you really want I think, which would require 2 full ADCs, but the DMM6500 can measure power with the voltage ratio function like the other DMMs in its class.

That's an interesting approach. I like that using an external shunt doesn't age the relays switching from voltage to current. Is there a way to fill a buffer of full ratio measurements at a high speed with a fixed sample frequency? (That is, like Digitise Voltage, but for full ratio.) Even if you couldn't hit 1 megasample/sec I'd assume you could get fast enough to get a low-distortion measurement for 50/60Hz signals. Then it would depend on whether the scripting language is then powerful enough to calculate AC power parameters from the buffer.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on November 08, 2018, 02:40:43 am
Not exactly what you really want I think, which would require 2 full ADCs, but the DMM6500 can measure power with the voltage ratio function like the other DMMs in its class.

That's an interesting approach. I like that using an external shunt doesn't age the relays switching from voltage to current. Is there a way to fill a buffer of full ratio measurements at a high speed with a fixed sample frequency? (That is, like Digitise Voltage, but for full ratio.) Even if you couldn't hit 1 megasample/sec I'd assume you could get fast enough to get a low-distortion measurement for 50/60Hz signals. Then it would depend on whether the scripting language is then powerful enough to calculate AC power parameters from the buffer.
The Ratio function's sample rate is defined by NPLC or Aperture, so it has a minimum sample window of ~8 us like the rest of the box.  The maximum reading rate is slightly slower than that for buffer and trigger overhead though.  Just removing the delays in the script, setting a manual range, turning off auto delay, and setting the minimum NPLC, I measured noise at 200S/s, or ~5ms between readings.  I would suspect you could speed it up slightly if make a trigger model to control when readings happen, as I've said before, the trigger model has a dedicated processor.  I would have to dig deeper and talk to the firmware folks to find out what the limiting factor is here, it's not TSP though, I tried just reading the ratio function directly to defbuffer1 and it was about the same speed.  I suspect the ratio function just isn't optimized for speed. 
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: attle123 on November 08, 2018, 11:36:05 pm
The 3706A is another instrument with dry circuit measurement, I think that's the only 3 we offer with dedicated dry circuit modes.  The DMM6500/DAQ6510 don't have the hardware required to do dry circuit testing, so that's a feature that can't be added in later (without a new model number).  It was looked at, but the team decided the cost for adding that one feature would've been too great.
Thank you for your answer.

As a compromise, is there anything which would prevent me from doing the following hack as a TSP script?
- Connect an external high stability 2 ohm in parallel with DUT (open would be 20mV on the 1 and 10 ohm ranges?)
- Measure the 2 ohm alone, store the value
- Deduce the DUT and display only the calculated value

One caveat is that pecision would become exponentially worse above 2 ohms,  but that's all I need anyway for small signal relay contacts.

Hi Brad, following up on this ratio topic, is there anyway to display the sense/Vs voltage onto the screen as well alongside the Vinput. Like the keysight is able in the video (2:09)
https://youtu.be/Y6xnLkiUMn8?t=129 (https://youtu.be/Y6xnLkiUMn8?t=129)
thanks!
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on November 09, 2018, 06:08:12 am
Hi Brad, following up on this ratio topic, is there anyway to display the sense/Vs voltage onto the screen as well alongside the Vinput. Like the keysight is able in the video (2:09)
https://youtu.be/Y6xnLkiUMn8?t=129 (https://youtu.be/Y6xnLkiUMn8?t=129)
thanks!
Yeah, that's real easy.  So how the ratio function works is it will store the ratio as "the reading".  In a full buffer, it will also store the sense voltage in the "extra values" field.  You can get the input voltage from those two values of course.  Then you can just print those values as a string to the main screen.  Or, you can use them in the power calculation like the first script does.

The same engineer adapted his first script to replicate what the Keysight video looks like (change .txt to .tsp to use it, like normal). 
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MrFox on November 09, 2018, 02:52:24 pm
Getting this DMM out of US customs is incredibly frustrating, is this paranoid crap a new thing?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on November 10, 2018, 07:25:59 am
Yeah, that's real easy. 

  :clap: :clap: :clap:

 I think this tool has a lot of undisclosed features.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: thm_w on November 10, 2018, 07:45:28 am
Getting this DMM out of US customs is incredibly frustrating, is this paranoid crap a new thing?

Where did you buy from, from what I saw US vs CAD distributors the price wasn't far off.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: attle123 on November 10, 2018, 09:38:35 am
thank you very much for the script, however there seem to be an issue with the readingbuffer, that every time the script is ran it seems to change the reading buffer to fill mode "once", even when i manually change the fill mode back to continuous on the dmm, so the script eventually stops itself. Is there anyway to change the fill mode to continuous in the script?. I noticed this aswell on the power measurement script aswell

Thanks!!
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: drummerdimitri on November 11, 2018, 09:14:54 am
It doesn't have "dry circuit" voltage limits on the low ohm ranges, only the 7510 and the 2010 seem to have this option?
I was wondering if it could be added later in firmware, or in scripting, or whether it's an actual hardware limitation on the 6500.
The 3706A is another instrument with dry circuit measurement, I think that's the only 3 we offer with dedicated dry circuit modes.  The DMM6500/DAQ6510 don't have the hardware required to do dry circuit testing, so that's a feature that can't be added in later (without a new model number).  It was looked at, but the team decided the cost for adding that one feature would've been too great. 

@nictinkers, thank you for the feedback!  I'm sorry you don't care for a lot of the design, but really, we do take all the feedback we can get to heart. 
Also that the instrument doesn't measure voltage and current simultaneously. It would have been really nice to be able to measure power, power factor, VA, VAR, even at some much lower resolution and accuracy than the main ADC.
Not exactly what you really want I think, which would require 2 full ADCs, but the DMM6500 can measure power with the voltage ratio function like the other DMMs in its class.  One of our engineers wrote a small script to simplify the process a bit, the script and the full description are here: https://forum.tek.com/viewtopic.php?f=617&t=141154,
here's a video he's been putting together for it too:
https://youtu.be/oWTTrA20M0w

I'm glad there is an option to measure power.

My question however is what shunt ratings would I need to measure power as accurately as possible from 1 mA to say 300-500
A?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MrFox on November 11, 2018, 09:47:20 am
Finally received it, the low resistance precision is pretty nice.

I just soldered three 14 awg in parallel on some machined banana plugs I had. With sense wires about an inch apart. So that is supposed to measure around 60 to 65 uohm I guess. It's just a test for noise, not accuracy.

The lowest resistance range is very noisy as expected, getting usable values that low requires slow integration and filtering. Averaging reaches the point of diminishing returns around 5 NPLC with 100x repeat filter. A hundred readings took a little over an hour. Doing 15 NLPC with 100x filter took 3 hours and provided very similar numbers. It's either the limit of the instrument or the limit of my crude methodology.

9.98 uohm pk-pk
2.26 uohm std dev
Average 61.3 uohms

That's kind of amazing....
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MrFox on November 11, 2018, 04:43:07 pm
The interface is a lot of fun to use, there are still a few things that I hope will be adressed in a firmware update. Not a big deal, the yellow cursor have no reason to exist on the 6500 since there's no knob to control it (it seems to have been written more for the smus and the 7510) unless I didn't figure out how to move it around. It makes the behaviour of the enter key a bit random, it's whatever default was selected on the page.

The swipe to change pages can be risky to operate, I sometimes press one of the functions by mistake, which wipe out the currently running acquisition. I would love to cycle the pages with the home key or something, maybe an option to remove the function page completely since there's already a dedicated function button to popup that menu. Maybe a toggle to prevent interrupting the measurement? A dialog yes/no for anything which would clear the buffer? Something like that.  When running a trigger and count other than plain continuous, the content of the buffer is probably important.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on November 11, 2018, 09:58:26 pm
.....
The lowest resistance range is very noisy as expected, getting usable values that low requires slow integration and filtering. Averaging reaches the point of diminishing returns around 5 NPLC with 100x repeat filter. A hundred readings took a little over an hour. Doing 15 NLPC with 100x filter took 3 hours and provided very similar numbers. It's either the limit of the instrument or the limit of my crude methodology.


The limited effect of more filtering / longer averaging is a kind of weak point with quite some Keithley meters. If think they should work on this, as it is very likely fixable in software and it effects not just the 6500.  This seems to be an old problem (AFAIR I saw the odd low frequency noise already on an old 196 or 199) so I would no expect a fast solution. My hope would be more on finally finding out when developing a new 8 digit meter.

The DAQ6500 is more like a meter for fast measurements and only specified for 6 digits. So the relatively poor noise with 10-60 seconds averaging is not that significant for this type of meter. It's more the higher grade 7510 where this really hurts. The good thing is, chances are it gets better once averaging is much longer (e.g. 5 minutes).

The very low resistance means measuring very low voltage and there thermal EMF effects at the "resistor" can also limit the accuracy. It might help to cover the resistor to protect it from air drafts. Thermal EMF combined with temperature fluctuations is one of the limiting factors for long time averaging. This is inside the meter and also at the DUT.  For the copper resistor this could also be just a fluctuation of the resistance due to temperature changes.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on November 12, 2018, 03:41:01 am

The limited effect of more filtering / longer averaging is a kind of weak point with quite some Keithley meters.


I did a comparison of "fast" (filter 10, NPLC 5, readings 10) and "slow" (filter 100, NPLC 12, readings up to 160) measurements for 10mΩ +/-0,01%. In a series of ten "fast" measurements, the maximum deviation is about 200 ppm.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MrFox on November 12, 2018, 04:12:47 pm
I think the integration rate (NPLC setting) is altering the slope rate of the ADC? I mean it's not averaging multiple samples during thst time, otherwise 100x 1 NPLC would give the same result as 10x 10 NPLC and it doesn't. As a reference the 1 ohm range is insanely low voltage considering the current source is 10mA. So the noise in that range warrants more samples at a faster rate.

I made 3 different reading at the same 100 readings, 100 total NPLC per reading, I repeated the test 5 times to get a good sampling. Room is electronically controlled to 22C. Same 60uohm copper wire. The value shown is the std deviation, in uohms, of each iteration. The test was done 1,2,3,1,2,3 etc... to avoid corellated external factors.

Filter 7x at 15 NPLC:
7.85
9.73
8.75
9.02
9.63

Filter 10x at 10 NPLC:
7.59
7.86
9.04
7..35
7.99

Filter 100x at 1 NPLC:
3.75
3.48
3.23
3.45
3.92

I wish they enabled a 1000x repeat filter for a 1 NLPC reading, which would probably yield one least significant digit in the 1 ohm range. All other ranges are ultra stable and don't really need this. That 1 ohm range is already crazy impressive but it can still be improved in software even more.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on November 13, 2018, 02:53:35 am
Getting this DMM out of US customs is incredibly frustrating, is this paranoid crap a new thing?
Occasionally customs gets freaked out by test equipment.  :-\  Nothing new as far as I'm aware.

thank you very much for the script, however there seem to be an issue with the readingbuffer, that every time the script is ran it seems to change the reading buffer to fill mode "once", even when i manually change the fill mode back to continuous on the dmm, so the script eventually stops itself. Is there anyway to change the fill mode to continuous in the script?. I noticed this aswell on the power measurement script aswell

Thanks!!
Yeah, by default buffers are fill-once.  Add these commands after the buffers have been created (so around line 15):
Code: [Select]
readingBuffer.fillmode = buffer.FILL_CONTINUOUS
powerBuffer.fillmode = buffer.FILL_CONTINUOUS
Manually changing them should work too, but you have to change both buffers.  The fillmode command in on page 742/15-41 of the reference manual.
EDIT: oh, you also need to change a couple other things: the for loop needs to become a "while true do" and you need to add "i = 1" before the loop and "i = i + 1" at the bottom of the loop since we're removing the iterable for loop.

The lowest resistance range is very noisy as expected, getting usable values that low requires slow integration and filtering. Averaging reaches the point of diminishing returns around 5 NPLC with 100x repeat filter. A hundred readings took a little over an hour. Doing 15 NLPC with 100x filter took 3 hours and provided very similar numbers. It's either the limit of the instrument or the limit of my crude methodology.
There are diminishing returns for higher NPLC for most signals, and in fact higher NPLC may be less accurate.  Page 203/5-58 in the reference manual discusses this a little bit.  At higher NPLC, the measurement interval starts to cover a time frame where the DMM's internal drift starts to matter.  Unless you expect a lot of power line noise, I would recommend 1-5 NPLC and averaging. 

The interface is a lot of fun to use, there are still a few things that I hope will be adressed in a firmware update. Not a big deal, the yellow cursor have no reason to exist on the 6500 since there's no knob to control it (it seems to have been written more for the smus and the 7510) unless I didn't figure out how to move it around. It makes the behaviour of the enter key a bit random, it's whatever default was selected on the page.

The swipe to change pages can be risky to operate, I sometimes press one of the functions by mistake, which wipe out the currently running acquisition. I would love to cycle the pages with the home key or something, maybe an option to remove the function page completely since there's already a dedicated function button to popup that menu. Maybe a toggle to prevent interrupting the measurement? A dialog yes/no for anything which would clear the buffer? Something like that.  When running a trigger and count other than plain continuous, the content of the buffer is probably important.
Interesting idea for the enter key to move between swipes...  To remove the Functions swipe screen, you can use same command I gave to PTR_1275 earlier:
Code: [Select]
display.delete(display.SCREEN_FUNCTIONS_SWIPE)to bring it back:
Code: [Select]
display.create(display.SCREEN_HOME, display.OBJ_SWIPE, display.SCREEN_FUNCTIONS_SWIPE)You could add these to autoexec.tsp to have the swipe removed on start up.
In fact, here's the list of the swipe screens if anyone else wants to remove one of them. You could even remove all of them! If for some reason you wanted that...
Code: [Select]
display.SCREEN_FUNCTIONS_SWIPE
display.SCREEN_SETTINGS_SWIPE
display.SCREEN_SECONDARY_SWIPE
display.SCREEN_GRAPH_SWIPE
display.SCREEN_STATS_SWIPE

The very low resistance means measuring very low voltage and there thermal EMF effects at the "resistor" can also limit the accuracy. It might help to cover the resistor to protect it from air drafts. Thermal EMF combined with temperature fluctuations is one of the limiting factors for long time averaging. This is inside the meter and also at the DUT.  For the copper resistor this could also be just a fluctuation of the resistance due to temperature changes.
Also make sure the covering is a Faraday cage, stray electrical signals become a problem at the 1 ohm range.  Really the 4-wire 1 ohm range is approaching the volt-nut territory so you'd have to start looking a the physical limitations of your measurement setup like you say.

I wish they enabled a 1000x repeat filter for a 1 NLPC reading, which would probably yield one least significant digit in the 1 ohm range. All other ranges are ultra stable and don't really need this. That 1 ohm range is already crazy impressive but it can still be improved in software even more.
Improving the physical measurement setup would have a much larger impact than more averaging if you're talking about going from 100 to 1000 readings.  Software can only do so much if you have too much noise.  Even our electrometer has a 100 reading limit on averaging. 
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MrFox on November 13, 2018, 02:54:50 am
.....
The lowest resistance range is very noisy as expected, getting usable values that low requires slow integration and filtering. Averaging reaches the point of diminishing returns around 5 NPLC with 100x repeat filter. A hundred readings took a little over an hour. Doing 15 NLPC with 100x filter took 3 hours and provided very similar numbers. It's either the limit of the instrument or the limit of my crude methodology.


The limited effect of more filtering / longer averaging is a kind of weak point with quite some Keithley meters. If think they should work on this, as it is very likely fixable in software and it effects not just the 6500.  This seems to be an old problem (AFAIR I saw the odd low frequency noise already on an old 196 or 199) so I would no expect a fast solution. My hope would be more on finally finding out when developing a new 8 digit meter.

The DAQ6500 is more like a meter for fast measurements and only specified for 6 digits. So the relatively poor noise with 10-60 seconds averaging is not that significant for this type of meter. It's more the higher grade 7510 where this really hurts. The good thing is, chances are it gets better once averaging is much longer (e.g. 5 minutes).

The very low resistance means measuring very low voltage and there thermal EMF effects at the "resistor" can also limit the accuracy. It might help to cover the resistor to protect it from air drafts. Thermal EMF combined with temperature fluctuations is one of the limiting factors for long time averaging. This is inside the meter and also at the DUT.  For the copper resistor this could also be just a fluctuation of the resistance due to temperature changes.
Ok thanks I just saw the discussion about this in the 7500 thread, I'll be following it there. The details are a bit above my degree of knowledge.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on November 14, 2018, 07:23:28 am
 I performed another experiment - the measurement of 1 milliohm. The settings: NPLC 0.1 - 1 - 3 - 5 - 12, the filter 100 or OFF, the measurement time of 1 or 10 minutes. About 60 measurements. I was very surprised by the results - a smaller error at the NPLC 1, the filter 100 time measurement 10 min. Much more accurately than with NPLC 12.

 The user manual has the following information: At these rates (lowest noise region in graph), DMM6500 will make corrections for its own internal drift and...

 How is autocorrection related to aperture? How it work? And why is this only possible in a narrow range?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on November 15, 2018, 02:04:41 am
The user manual has the following information: At these rates (lowest noise region in graph), DMM6500 will make corrections for its own internal drift and...

 How is autocorrection related to aperture? How it work? And why is this only possible in a narrow range?
Most every DMM will do some delays/corrections/reference checks between each or every-so-many readings.  Most of these are controlled by the autozero settings but there are some settling delays and reference checks that can't be changed because they're necessary to get a reading at all.

The instrument can't do those corrections and checks while the measurement is actually happening.  So when you set a longer aperture/NPLC, the end of the measurement is more likely to have drifted away from the reference than the beginning of the measurement.  The solution to this is often to use a smaller aperture (but no smaller than 1), even when you want a stable reading, and do some averaging.  This isn't always true though since a stable DMM will not drift very much at all. 
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on November 15, 2018, 04:21:55 am
The ADC and input amplifier might show some 1/f type noise. The longer the individual integration, the more of this 1/f noise will come through. For this reason there is often an upper limit at some 10 PLC and even if one chooses a longer integration like 100 PLC this would internally be done by averaging shorter conversions. In this sense the 1 PLC mode might be the best, but there can be some downsides too, as limited INL and also more time lost to switching the source. The 4 Wire Ohms usually switches between Sense_Lo and Sense_Hi.

The Ohms mode may be special, but in voltage ranges the Keithley meters tend to use some averaging on the zero reading of the AZ mode. This can slightly reduce the higher frequency noise, especially seen over short times and thus can be a good thing there. However there is a downside to this: averaging the zero readings interferes with 1/f noise suppression from alternating zero and signal reading. If too much averaging is used the 1/f noise will come through and this can cause poor performance for longer times.
The PLC setting can also have an effect on this hidden zero reading averaging.

The PLC setting also effects the suppression of mains hum. Depending on the timing an actual line frequency this can be better at some settings. While some prefer a long simple conversion, there is also an advantage with the average over the right number of 1 PLC readings.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on November 15, 2018, 05:51:22 am
 Gentlemen, thank you very much for the explanation. There are so many things that are not obvious to me. Moreover, the user manual recommends: Measuring DCV with high accuracy ...Set the integration rate to 10 power line cycles (PLCs)... (page 5-3)
 Another question is how often and when does auto-zeroing occur? Sometimes I get strange results. Perhaps there is a connection with AZ.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on November 15, 2018, 06:40:47 am
The 10 PLC mode can have some advantage with linearity over 1 PLC - this at least is true for many older DMMs. With good amplifiers with low 1/f noise levels the 1 PLC mode may not have that much noise advantage.

The usual auto zero mode is alternating between one conversion with the actual input and one conversion with a zero input. There might be cases where something like 2 times signal and 1 zero reading might be used. Some meters also used a sequence line zero, signal and reference. However I don't expect this for the 6500, more for slower reading DMMs with higher priority on accuracy than speed.
Depending on the meter there can be some averaging with the zero readings - my guess is not much averaging in the Keysight meters and a little too much with the Keithley meters.

Another factor can be synchronization with the mains frequency. Sometimes there is a separate setting for line synchronous mode.

The instructions to older meters usually have a more detailed description on how exactly AZ mode works. The newer instructions often leave out these details - maybe because they are not at the high end anymore. Sometimes it still matters how the measurement is actually done, e.g. if the input signal is not constant. One would not need all the details from the old theory of operation section, but a little more information would be good.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: admiralmaggie on November 16, 2018, 10:00:42 am
Quick question: How is your experience with continuity test on your DMM6500? I read earlier that there is a delay of some sort...
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: sstepane on November 16, 2018, 05:41:58 pm
Quick question: How is your experience with continuity test on your DMM6500? I read earlier that there is a delay of some sort...
There's no delay on continuity detection, but the sound is at least 1 second long - no matter how short was the connection. Which is a bit unusual, but, IMO even a little better solution - so you'll not miss it.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MrFox on November 18, 2018, 10:43:14 am
(cross-posting this here from the 7500/2450 bugs discusion)

Resizing buffers can sometimes cause memory fragmentation or memory leak.

Steps to reproduce on the 6500 (I have firmware 1.0.02a):
1. Reboot (power off, power on)
2. Go to Reading Buffers
--> The bug will appears if you do NOT touch the Buffer selector button and leave it at defbuffer1
3. Change capacity to 1M
4. Set buffer to defbuffer2
5. Change capacity to 10
--> Here the bug we see is that the buffer selection goes back to defbuffer1, but the capacity button is the value from defbuffer2
6. Set buffer to defbuffer1 (reselect it even if already selected)
7. Change capacity to 10
--> From this point, 1M is missing, it's not possible to either resize or create a buffer larger than 6M (7M is the max on the 6500). Until the next reboot.

In the mean time, it's simple to avoid the bug, always reselect the buffer before changing capacity.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on November 21, 2018, 05:39:01 am
(cross-posting this here from the 7500/2450 bugs discusion)

Resizing buffers can sometimes cause memory fragmentation or memory leak.

Steps to reproduce on the 6500 (I have firmware 1.0.02a):
1. Reboot (power off, power on)
2. Go to Reading Buffers
--> The bug will appears if you do NOT touch the Buffer selector button and leave it at defbuffer1
3. Change capacity to 1M
4. Set buffer to defbuffer2
5. Change capacity to 10
--> Here the bug we see is that the buffer selection goes back to defbuffer1, but the capacity button is the value from defbuffer2
6. Set buffer to defbuffer1 (reselect it even if already selected)
7. Change capacity to 10
--> From this point, 1M is missing, it's not possible to either resize or create a buffer larger than 6M (7M is the max on the 6500). Until the next reboot.

In the mean time, it's simple to avoid the bug, always reselect the buffer before changing capacity.
Hmm, I wasn't able to replicate this with my 1.0.02a.  After step 7 I was able to create a buffer of size 6,500,000 without a problem.  I also tried resizing defbuffer2 from 10 to 6,500,000 without issue.  I did see that defbuffer1 appeared after resizing defbuffer2 though (after step 5), I filed a bug report for that. 
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MrFox on November 21, 2018, 10:36:05 am
(cross-posting this here from the 7500/2450 bugs discusion)

Resizing buffers can sometimes cause memory fragmentation or memory leak.

Steps to reproduce on the 6500 (I have firmware 1.0.02a):
1. Reboot (power off, power on)
2. Go to Reading Buffers
--> The bug will appears if you do NOT touch the Buffer selector button and leave it at defbuffer1
3. Change capacity to 1M
4. Set buffer to defbuffer2
5. Change capacity to 10
--> Here the bug we see is that the buffer selection goes back to defbuffer1, but the capacity button is the value from defbuffer2
6. Set buffer to defbuffer1 (reselect it even if already selected)
7. Change capacity to 10
--> From this point, 1M is missing, it's not possible to either resize or create a buffer larger than 6M (7M is the max on the 6500). Until the next reboot.

In the mean time, it's simple to avoid the bug, always reselect the buffer before changing capacity.
Hmm, I wasn't able to replicate this with my 1.0.02a.  After step 7 I was able to create a buffer of size 6,500,000 without a problem.  I also tried resizing defbuffer2 from 10 to 6,500,000 without issue.  I did see that defbuffer1 appeared after resizing defbuffer2 though (after step 5), I filed a bug report for that. 
Ah okay it's really fragmentation. At that point you can make 6.5M but you cannot make or resize to 7M anymore. Since the two default buffers cannot be deleted, they eventually end up in the way of creating a single maximum buffer. Resizing them left and right is moving them around so it's not easy to make clear repro steps.
...
8. Try to create a buffer with an invalid size of zero, it will display the message it must be between 10 and 7M
9. Try to create a 7M buffer and there's a more low level OOM error -225 and 4937
--> The biggest contiguous space seems to be 6.6M here
...

The maximum mentionned in the error message doesn't match the biggest contiguous space available, it indicates the entire free memory.
Would be useful to enable deleting the defaults to mitigate the fragmentation issue.
Would be better to have a defragmentation upon any buffer operations which would split the free space.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HKJ on November 21, 2018, 08:08:59 pm
My history with a free Kickstarter license are hopefully near the end. Brad did send me to the tek license office and they kicked my over to an EU license office, but they where rather busy and it took two weeks to make a license code. I got it today. Now I just have to find out what a "Host ID" is. It is not the serial number of my meter and it must be something that can response to a "Lookup Unit" or be in a Tek database.
I did never get any further response from where I bought the meter, they (elfadistrelec) obvious do not provide the free Kickstarter license.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on November 22, 2018, 03:02:12 am
(cross-posting this here from the 7500/2450 bugs discusion)

Resizing buffers can sometimes cause memory fragmentation or memory leak.

Steps to reproduce on the 6500 (I have firmware 1.0.02a):
1. Reboot (power off, power on)
2. Go to Reading Buffers
--> The bug will appears if you do NOT touch the Buffer selector button and leave it at defbuffer1
3. Change capacity to 1M
4. Set buffer to defbuffer2
5. Change capacity to 10
--> Here the bug we see is that the buffer selection goes back to defbuffer1, but the capacity button is the value from defbuffer2
6. Set buffer to defbuffer1 (reselect it even if already selected)
7. Change capacity to 10
--> From this point, 1M is missing, it's not possible to either resize or create a buffer larger than 6M (7M is the max on the 6500). Until the next reboot.

In the mean time, it's simple to avoid the bug, always reselect the buffer before changing capacity.
Hmm, I wasn't able to replicate this with my 1.0.02a.  After step 7 I was able to create a buffer of size 6,500,000 without a problem.  I also tried resizing defbuffer2 from 10 to 6,500,000 without issue.  I did see that defbuffer1 appeared after resizing defbuffer2 though (after step 5), I filed a bug report for that. 
Ah okay it's really fragmentation. At that point you can make 6.5M but you cannot make or resize to 7M anymore. Since the two default buffers cannot be deleted, they eventually end up in the way of creating a single maximum buffer. Resizing them left and right is moving them around so it's not easy to make clear repro steps.
...
8. Try to create a buffer with an invalid size of zero, it will display the message it must be between 10 and 7M
9. Try to create a 7M buffer and there's a more low level OOM error -225 and 4937
--> The biggest contiguous space seems to be 6.6M here
...

The maximum mentionned in the error message doesn't match the biggest contiguous space available, it indicates the entire free memory.
Would be useful to enable deleting the defaults to mitigate the fragmentation issue.
Would be better to have a defragmentation upon any buffer operations which would split the free space.
Hmm, the error that gives you the maximum buffer size is I think supposed to get the maximum contiguous block size, and it looks like it does some times, but gets confused other times.  These steps are really helpful, thanks!  In the meantime, a System Reset or sending the reset() command will clear the volatile memory and return the buffers to their default sizes and positions in memory. 

My history with a free Kickstarter license are hopefully near the end. Brad did send me to the tek license office and they kicked my over to an EU license office, but they where rather busy and it took two weeks to make a license code. I got it today. Now I just have to find out what a "Host ID" is. It is not the serial number of my meter and it must be something that can response to a "Lookup Unit" or be in a Tek database.
I did never get any further response from where I bought the meter, they (elfadistrelec) obvious do not provide the free Kickstarter license.
Unfortunately the end of the year does get very busy for all our sales people as companies rush to use up their yearly budget.  The Host ID is generated by the KickStart software after you install it.  You can find it by opening KickStart (the trial version), clicking on the gear icon in the upper right, then click "Manage Licenses".  The Host ID is at the top of that window.  The Host ID is used with all Tek software and I think the license office people are more used to dealing with large companies buying hundreds of licenses, so they forget to explain how to find these simple things!
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HKJ on November 22, 2018, 03:56:14 am
Unfortunately the end of the year does get very busy for all our sales people as companies rush to use up their yearly budget.  The Host ID is generated by the KickStart software after you install it.  You can find it by opening KickStart (the trial version), clicking on the gear icon in the upper right, then click "Manage Licenses".  The Host ID is at the top of that window.  The Host ID is used with all Tek software and I think the license office people are more used to dealing with large companies buying hundreds of licenses, so they forget to explain how to find these simple things!

Now the license is installed and I have updated my review, thanks for the help.
It would have been nice if the webpage that ask for the "Host ID" used some text on explaining what is was or where to find it.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on November 22, 2018, 04:47:21 am
Does anyone know, if you also get a free Kickstarter license with the purchase of a DMM7510?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: drummerdimitri on November 29, 2018, 09:02:29 pm
Where do i need to set the resistance value of my Shunt to run the power script correctly? Do i have to edit the script with some program on windows or from the instrument itself?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on November 30, 2018, 12:05:34 am
Does anyone know, if you also get a free Kickstarter license with the purchase of a DMM7510?
Yes, I see in my profile a link to generate a license for 7510. This is very nice. Thank you Brad O for this information. I would not have noticed it myself.

In the evening I will get to the device and the computer and install myself a license.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on November 30, 2018, 04:25:55 am
Does anyone know, if you also get a free Kickstarter license with the purchase of a DMM7510?

No, the free license is only with the purchase of a DMM6500 or a DAQ6510.  But, I think we still have a promotion running where when you register a new, compatible instrument on tek.com, you get a license. I think that's what MegaVolt is seeing.

Where do i need to set the resistance value of my Shunt to run the power script correctly? Do i have to edit the script with some program on windows or from the instrument itself?
The script is very simple so you can't edit it from the box itself, you need to a separate computer.  Our own IDE code editor for TSP is called Test Script Builder, you can find it on our website (https://www.tek.com/software/TestScriptBuilder/KTS-850J02 (https://www.tek.com/software/TestScriptBuilder/KTS-850J02)).  But, TSP scripts are plain text and can be edited with any basic text editor.  The relevant line for the setting the Shunt resistor value is line 10: "shuntValue = 0.91 --ohms"
 
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: drummerdimitri on November 30, 2018, 09:23:07 am
Does anyone know, if you also get a free Kickstarter license with the purchase of a DMM7510?

No, the free license is only with the purchase of a DMM6500 or a DAQ6510.  But, I think we still have a promotion running where when you register a new, compatible instrument on tek.com, you get a license. I think that's what MegaVolt is seeing.

Where do i need to set the resistance value of my Shunt to run the power script correctly? Do i have to edit the script with some program on windows or from the instrument itself?
The script is very simple so you can't edit it from the box itself, you need to a separate computer.  Our own IDE code editor for TSP is called Test Script Builder, you can find it on our website (https://www.tek.com/software/TestScriptBuilder/KTS-850J02 (https://www.tek.com/software/TestScriptBuilder/KTS-850J02)).  But, TSP scripts are plain text and can be edited with any basic text editor.  The relevant line for the setting the Shunt resistor value is line 10: "shuntValue = 0.91 --ohms"

Thanks for the info Brad, I was able to set the value of my shunt resistor.

I'm still having issues with the connections to measure power though.

I am trying to measure the power draw from a DC power supply by using a shunt resistor in series between the load and the PSU and then measure the voltage drop across the resistor but that isn't working.

Is my method flawed? P=VI.

V is measured at the input terminals (12V DC) and I is automatically calculated by the program since the Voltage drop across the shunt is being measured by the sense terminals and the shunt's resistance is known  :-//

Please tell me what I'm doing wrong here.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on December 01, 2018, 05:09:11 am
Thanks for the info Brad, I was able to set the value of my shunt resistor.

I'm still having issues with the connections to measure power though.

I am trying to measure the power draw from a DC power supply by using a shunt resistor in series between the load and the PSU and then measure the voltage drop across the resistor but that isn't working.

Is my method flawed? P=VI.

V is measured at the input terminals (12V DC) and I is automatically calculated by the program since the Voltage drop across the shunt is being measured by the sense terminals and the shunt's resistance is known  :-//

Please tell me what I'm doing wrong here.
What exactly is going wrong?  Can you attach a schematic of your connections? 
You can also troubleshoot by looking at the raw data at MENU > Reading Table and selecting the readingBuffer.  The current is the Extra column divided by the shunt resistor value.  The voltage is the Reading column times the Extra column, then P=VI. The script does exactly this calculation.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: drummerdimitri on December 02, 2018, 02:05:54 am
Thanks for the info Brad, I was able to set the value of my shunt resistor.

I'm still having issues with the connections to measure power though.

I am trying to measure the power draw from a DC power supply by using a shunt resistor in series between the load and the PSU and then measure the voltage drop across the resistor but that isn't working.

Is my method flawed? P=VI.

V is measured at the input terminals (12V DC) and I is automatically calculated by the program since the Voltage drop across the shunt is being measured by the sense terminals and the shunt's resistance is known  :-//

Please tell me what I'm doing wrong here.
What exactly is going wrong?  Can you attach a schematic of your connections? 
You can also troubleshoot by looking at the raw data at MENU > Reading Table and selecting the readingBuffer.  The current is the Extra column divided by the shunt resistor value.  The voltage is the Reading column times the Extra column, then P=VI. The script does exactly this calculation.

I'm not good at drawing schematics, could you please show me the right way to make such a connection and I will do the same from my end.?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 02, 2018, 09:03:20 am
I'm not good at drawing schematics, could you please show me the right way to make such a connection and I will do the same from my end.?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: drummerdimitri on December 02, 2018, 10:22:25 am
Since the DMM6500 can take simultaneous readings of current and voltage is there some script to measure power other than using a shunt resistor?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 02, 2018, 10:58:12 am
Since the DMM6500 can take simultaneous readings of current and voltage is there some script to measure power other than using a shunt resistor?
The device cannot measure current and voltage simultaneously. Voltage only or current only. At the same time spending a relay resource.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: drummerdimitri on December 02, 2018, 11:11:36 am
Since the DMM6500 can take simultaneous readings of current and voltage is there some script to measure power other than using a shunt resistor?
The device cannot measure current and voltage simultaneously. Voltage only or current only. At the same time spending a relay resource.

How was I able to measure the DC voltage using the rear ports and DC current as a secondary measurement then?

There were no relays switching between the two modes  :-//
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 02, 2018, 09:50:28 pm
How was I able to measure the DC voltage using the rear ports and DC current as a secondary measurement then?

There were no relays switching between the two modes  :-//
I could be wrong. I have 7510 and maybe their behavior is somewhat different.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: aurelienr on December 03, 2018, 09:39:26 pm
Hi everybody,
I'm looking since several month for a reliable mean to measure current profiles on low power devices, like IoT sensors or any othr projects with low idle current and peaks working currents. If possible with a cost < 1000 euros.
When I saw the DMM6500 I thought my problem would be solved, through the high frequency sampling, that would ease measurements of low duration events (for example active current duration of 50µs with 500µs sleep.
But when I read the full specs, I see that :
 - I can use normal measurement mode up to 20.6ksamples / secs with 4.5" resolution ("Typical Reading rates, DC function" at page 17, and "DC Current noise Charac" at page 10
 - if I use Digitizing feature, according to table at page 16, I can get only 8 ENB at 50kHz sampling (400µA for 100mA range), and resolution is not specified after 50ksps. That's strange...Or may I misunderstand the 1/10/50kHz indication in the table ?

I don't understand something in the DC Current Accuracy specs (page 10). For 100mA caliber, I see that error is 0.01 + 0.03 within 24h after cal, and 0.015 + 0.005 after 90 days. Why is the range error so high (0.03% of 100mA = 30µA !) and is reduced after 90 days (0.005% = 5µA) ?

Thanks
Aurelien
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MrFox on December 04, 2018, 02:22:52 am
I don't understand something in the DC Current Accuracy specs (page 10). For 100mA caliber, I see that error is 0.01 + 0.03 within 24h after cal, and 0.015 + 0.005 after 90 days. Why is the range error so high (0.03% of 100mA = 30µA !) and is reduced after 90 days (0.005% = 5µA) ?
Yeah I noticed that too, considering the rest of the table I'm assuming it's a typo, and should be 0.003
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on December 04, 2018, 03:02:30 am
Since the DMM6500 can take simultaneous readings of current and voltage is there some script to measure power other than using a shunt resistor?
The device cannot measure current and voltage simultaneously. Voltage only or current only. At the same time spending a relay resource.

How was I able to measure the DC voltage using the rear ports and DC current as a secondary measurement then?

There were no relays switching between the two modes  :-//
MegaVolt is right, the DMM6500 can't measure Voltage and Current simultaneously, but you might not always hear relays clicking.  There are a couple range combinations that don't require a relay switch, typically because the the signal paths use the same range resistors.  10V and 1A is an example combo, but there are a few others.  This behavior was the same for the 7510 as far as I know, but the range combinations might be different.

Hi everybody,
I'm looking since several month for a reliable mean to measure current profiles on low power devices, like IoT sensors or any othr projects with low idle current and peaks working currents. If possible with a cost < 1000 euros.
When I saw the DMM6500 I thought my problem would be solved, through the high frequency sampling, that would ease measurements of low duration events (for example active current duration of 50µs with 500µs sleep.
But when I read the full specs, I see that :
 - I can use normal measurement mode up to 20.6ksamples / secs with 4.5" resolution ("Typical Reading rates, DC function" at page 17, and "DC Current noise Charac" at page 10
 - if I use Digitizing feature, according to table at page 16, I can get only 8 ENB at 50kHz sampling (400µA for 100mA range), and resolution is not specified after 50ksps. That's strange...Or may I misunderstand the 1/10/50kHz indication in the table ?

I don't understand something in the DC Current Accuracy specs (page 10). For 100mA caliber, I see that error is 0.01 + 0.03 within 24h after cal, and 0.015 + 0.005 after 90 days. Why is the range error so high (0.03% of 100mA = 30µA !) and is reduced after 90 days (0.005% = 5µA) ?

Thanks
Aurelien
You're right with the typical reading rate, but as an aside, the 4.5 digit is just the spec'd accuracy.  You can command the instrument to return 6.5 digits at the maximum sample rate if you wanted. 
On the Digitizing table, the 1 kHz/10kHz/50kHz is the input signal, the sampling rate for that table is fixed at 1 MS/s.  That table is largely to help with audio measurements, so the team decided to stop at 50 kHz, high above the typical 20kHz max for the audio spectrum.

On the DC Current specs, it looks like someone made a mistake, it's supposed to be 0.01+0.003 within 24h.  A bit of background: you're looking at the Datasheet which, I think, is auto generated every so often.  There's also the Specifications which is controlled directly by engineering (found here (https://www.tek.com/wenjian/specification/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-bench-system-multimeter-specifications)). The specs right now have the correct number, being +0.003%range.  There's not supposed to be any discrepancy between the Specs and Datasheet though, I'm not sure how that even happened since I thought the process was automated but I'll put in a bug report for the website team, sorry for the confusion!
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 04, 2018, 06:51:26 am
you might not always hear relays clicking.  There are a couple range combinations that don't require a relay switch, typically because the the signal paths use the same range resistors.  10V and 1A is an example combo, but there are a few others.  This behavior was the same for the 7510 as far as I know, but the range combinations might be different.
Maybe there is some opportunity to tell us about the technical details of the device 7510 and 6510?
Information is not enough. To know when the relay will click, and when not.
What is the input bandwidth for DCV.
Is it possible to somehow find out the exact values of current shunts. The device itself must know them?
How are the processors, trigger connected inside ...
And any other information on the device. Scheme. Block diagram Sketches.
Please.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: aurelienr on December 04, 2018, 07:26:51 am
Thank you Brad, that helps !
Looks like santa will be nice this year :)

Just another question about KickStart licencing. I've read on this topic that the licence was included when ordering a DMM6500. I've seen some screenshots with "Host ID" request. Is there any limitation on number of PC that can use the licence for one multimeter ? I mean : if I install the licence on my current PC, will have to buy a new licence when I will replace my PC by a new one ? I know that this kind of host limited protection is used for others kinds of licences, but what about KickStart ?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on December 04, 2018, 10:32:06 am
you might not always hear relays clicking.  There are a couple range combinations that don't require a relay switch, typically because the the signal paths use the same range resistors.  10V and 1A is an example combo, but there are a few others.  This behavior was the same for the 7510 as far as I know, but the range combinations might be different.
Maybe there is some opportunity to tell us about the technical details of the device 7510 and 6510?
Information is not enough. To know when the relay will click, and when not.
What is the input bandwidth for DCV.
Is it possible to somehow find out the exact values of current shunts. The device itself must know them?
How are the processors, trigger connected inside ...
And any other information on the device. Scheme. Block diagram Sketches.
Please.
What exactly are you trying to do?  That's a lot of info you're asking for...  Like for DCV Bandwidth: it varies depending on a handful of settings and isn't spec'd, so if you tell me why you want it or how you'll use the info, I can estimate a figure for you.  For something like a block diagram, what are you looking to find? 

Thank you Brad, that helps !
Looks like santa will be nice this year :)

Just another question about KickStart licencing. I've read on this topic that the licence was included when ordering a DMM6500. I've seen some screenshots with "Host ID" request. Is there any limitation on number of PC that can use the licence for one multimeter ? I mean : if I install the licence on my current PC, will have to buy a new licence when I will replace my PC by a new one ? I know that this kind of host limited protection is used for others kinds of licences, but what about KickStart ?
Yes, but when ordering, please make sure they include KickStart in your quote, it should be quoted as $0 though or have a 100% discount applied.  That will save you from having to message me for help later :D.

Tektronix has three types of licenses: node locked, floating, or free trial.  For KickStart, most every license is floating, so you can move the license from computer to computer no problem, but you can only have the license on one computer at a time. 
The only time you get a node-locked license is if you get KickStart for free by registering a compatible product on tek.com (I think that promotion is still going on).  That license will only be usable on the computer you install it on. 
KickStart is also available as a free trial, which is technically it's own type of license. 
The Tek AMS page (https://www.tek.com/products/product-license (https://www.tek.com/products/product-license)) has the full descriptions for all these. 
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 04, 2018, 07:30:56 pm
What exactly are you trying to do?  That's a lot of info you're asking for...  Like for DCV Bandwidth: it varies depending on a handful of settings and isn't spec'd, so if you tell me why you want it or how you'll use the info, I can estimate a figure for you.  For something like a block diagram, what are you looking to find? 
I am an engineer old school.
I used to understand the device with which I work. It is very difficult for me to work with a black box which I do not understand.

For example, I measure the noise of a low-noise power source. And I want to know the band of the device as the measured noise level depends on it. And I want to have this answer in my head and not ask the engineer Keithley every time.

Or I do not want to hear the switching of relyushek in double dimensions. For example, I crossed out this mode for myself from the applicable. And it turns out that under certain conditions I can use it.

Those. I really want to work with the device myself without distracting Keythley engineers from work.

Moreover, the programmers received detailed instructions for working with the device for 1000 pages. And engineers have nothing but a very modest verbal description which is difficult to understand :(
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: aurelienr on December 04, 2018, 08:06:45 pm
Yes, but when ordering, please make sure they include KickStart in your quote, it should be quoted as $0 though or have a 100% discount applied.  That will save you from having to message me for help later :D.
I guess you will receive an email because I cannot add licence on distributor like RS/Farnell, and when I try to set a quote on your website for the DMM6500, the Kickstart floating licence is sold at 214€ (I received email confirmation for this price !).....
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on December 05, 2018, 02:22:55 am
I ordered a DMM6500 today, might receive it before Christmas.
It is confirmed to come with a free Kickstarter license (Promotion until March 2019)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on December 05, 2018, 03:59:01 am
What exactly are you trying to do?  That's a lot of info you're asking for...  Like for DCV Bandwidth: it varies depending on a handful of settings and isn't spec'd, so if you tell me why you want it or how you'll use the info, I can estimate a figure for you.  For something like a block diagram, what are you looking to find? 
I am an engineer old school.
I used to understand the device with which I work. It is very difficult for me to work with a black box which I do not understand.

For example, I measure the noise of a low-noise power source. And I want to know the band of the device as the measured noise level depends on it. And I want to have this answer in my head and not ask the engineer Keithley every time.

Or I do not want to hear the switching of relyushek in double dimensions. For example, I crossed out this mode for myself from the applicable. And it turns out that under certain conditions I can use it.

Those. I really want to work with the device myself without distracting Keythley engineers from work.

Moreover, the programmers received detailed instructions for working with the device for 1000 pages. And engineers have nothing but a very modest verbal description which is difficult to understand :(

With the modern DMMs it is not common anymore to get a detailed description on how they work, that was in old days, like 30 years ago. In part this is to make is more difficult to copy the instrument in China. The other part is that the operations get more complicated with many more modes. So it would be quite a thick book to describe the operation.  Another problem is that details might even change over revisions.
So I don't think there is much hope - at least for a more normal, lower cost instruments. One might get a little more information for a metrological grade instrument - because one would need it to get the best and reliable performance.

Still it would be nice to have at least a little more information, so one does not need to start with a kind of reverse engineering / testing to get information such  as the actual data rate / time spacing, actual aperture and measurement sequence in the Ohms modes. Also for the digital filtering used in the meter, it would be nice to know about the exact filter function, as this effects noise estimates from the readings. With filtering use the simple std. deviation values calculated have to be taken with a grain of salt - as the raw data may be correlated.

Sometimes it makes a difference if the reading is a continuous integration of e.g. 500 ms or the average of 5 readings at 100 ms. This also effects things like the time from trigger to the actual reading. Also when using the scanner the timing of the reading can be important.
So at least for the more serious meters such information should be in a good manual.

Not knowing such details might lead to problems like not always waiting long enough for settling. This could lead to problems like the odd out-layers once every 160 readings seen in some cases - though in this case more like a problem for the DMM internal software.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on December 08, 2018, 08:00:48 am
I am an engineer old school.
Oh well in that case: I gathered some info from the design engineers.  We're really quite happy to share details, but it helps us if you're specific in what you want to know and why you want to know it.  I think I addressed all the questions below:

To know when the relay will click, and when not.
The relay positions aren't documented right now so I just found these by trial and error.  I'll see about making a cohesive table for this later, I know reading it in text form is complicated.  If you go into or out of the following functions/ranges, you will hear a relay actuate.  These are only for Voltage, current, and ohms.  The other functions reuse these relays. 

For the DMM6500: Relays are used for the AC I/V functions, ACV 10V and higher, DCV 1000V, 10 Ohms and lower (both 2W and 4W), 100mA range and 1A and higher ranges both ACI and DCI.  The DC/ACI >=1A relay is the same as the <1000DCV relay, so switching between those will not have a relay click.  Digitize functions use the same relays as their DC counterparts. 

For the DMM7510, assume it's the same as the DMM6500, but with these differences: No relay for low ohms but instead has a relay for 10MOhm and above.  DCV has no 1000V relay.  DigiV has a relay for 10V and below (>10V shares the relay with DCV).  I don't think I missed any...

What is the input bandwidth for DCV.
From a purely hardware perspective up to but not including the ADC: up to hundreds of kHz to support the DCV digitizer function for 10V and less ranges. 100V and 1000V ranges a lot less than that due to internal 10Meg divider.  Generally similar to digitzer specs.

Is it possible to somehow find out the exact values of current shunts. The device itself must know them?
The Nominal values are copied here from the specifications: 10 μA-10 kΩ; 100 μA-1 kΩ; 1 mA-100 Ω; 10 mA-10 Ω; 100 mA-1 Ω; 1 A-100 mΩ; 3 A-100 mΩ; 10 A-5 mΩ.  These have a 1% tolerance.  The exact values are never measurable by the DMM or otherwise because of the path resistances and connections inherent to the DMM (unless you open the box and cut the resistors out).

How are the processors, trigger connected inside ...
And any other information on the device. Scheme. Block diagram Sketches.
The processors/trigger/measurement relationship is too complicated to document here and changes depending on the specifics of how you're measuring.  Is there some case you had in mind?  We want to try and answer your question, but we could make hundreds of different block diagrams about the box.

the actual data rate / time spacing
Do you mean the flow of data out of the box?  Or the spacing of measurements?  Typical reading rates out of the box for the best case scenarios are given in the datasheet, they'll go down from there.  Spacing of measurements are controlled by things like autozero, multiphase measurements (so like 4-wire ohms, DCV ratio, things where one measurement really takes more than one measurement), line sync, aperture, autoranging, autodelay, etc.  I don't think it's practical or possible to list all the possible combinations and the spacing for each function.

actual aperture and measurement sequence in the Ohms modes
The aperture for ohms modes is settable like in any other function, unless you meant something else? The measurement sequence is different depending on what range you have selected (the 10M and 100M range use a ratiometric method, described starting on page 204/5-59 of the manual) and certain measure settings like offset compensation and open lead detection add extra phases before the measurements take place. Depending on your particular settings, the measurement sequence gets up to 7 phases long for 4-wire ohms.

Also for the digital filtering used in the meter, it would be nice to know about the exact filter function, as this effects noise estimates from the readings. With filtering use the simple std. deviation values calculated have to be taken with a grain of salt - as the raw data may be correlated. 
"Filter" Filtering is applied by the digital process after calibration is applied to the readings.  There are two different types of filtering that are detailed on page 198/5-53 of the manual, plus Hybrid filtering which is in the 1.0.01f firmware release notes or I wrote about it earlier in this thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg1768589/#msg1768589 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg1768589/#msg1768589)).  All this "post-processing" follows an order of operations on page 215/5-70, I attached an image of it too (which is actually a bit misleading, going to the display and the buffer actually happen simultaneously, I put a bug report in for that).

Not knowing such details might lead to problems like not always waiting long enough for settling. This could lead to problems like the odd out-layers once every 160 readings seen in some cases - though in this case more like a problem for the DMM internal software.
You can definitely configure the box so that the DMM won't return settled measurements.  The power up default enables Autodelay which ensures settling in most cases.  The times added by autodelay are given starting on page 189/5-44 of the manual.  If you have an atypical setup, like really long cables or circuits, you may need to add manual delays.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: drummerdimitri on December 08, 2018, 11:11:11 am
Since the DMM6500 can take simultaneous readings of current and voltage is there some script to measure power other than using a shunt resistor?
The device cannot measure current and voltage simultaneously. Voltage only or current only. At the same time spending a relay resource.

How was I able to measure the DC voltage using the rear ports and DC current as a secondary measurement then?

There were no relays switching between the two modes  :-//
MegaVolt is right, the DMM6500 can't measure Voltage and Current simultaneously, but you might not always hear relays clicking.  There are a couple range combinations that don't require a relay switch, typically because the the signal paths use the same range resistors.  10V and 1A is an example combo, but there are a few others.  This behavior was the same for the 7510 as far as I know, but the range combinations might be different.

I noticed that but for the ranges where a simultaneous non-relay switching measurement, is there a script that can multiply the current and voltage and give me a power reading instead of using a shunt resistor and the voltage ratio method?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: TiN on December 08, 2018, 11:58:11 pm
Are there are plans to release calibration/service manual for DMM6500? I'd be interested to see the calibration points for ACV.

MegaVolt

Some of the internal pics for DMM6500 you can find here (https://xdevs.com/review/dmm6500/#teardown). Perhaps they can shed some more light on how it's designed and working.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 09, 2018, 09:33:20 am
Oh well in that case: I gathered some info from the design engineers.  We're really quite happy to share details, but it helps us if you're specific in what you want to know and why you want to know it.  I think I addressed all the questions below:
Many thanks to Brad O for the information gathered.

Then if you do not mind, I will continue to ask questions.


Quote
What is the input bandwidth for DCV.
From a purely hardware perspective up to but not including the ADC: up to hundreds of kHz to support the DCV digitizer function for 10V and less ranges. 100V and 1000V ranges a lot less than that due to internal 10Meg divider.  Generally similar to digitzer specs.
Does this mean that I must include an external anti-aliasing filter to eliminate the effect of spectrum overlap. And at the same time reduce the input noise level?

Quote
How are the processors, trigger connected inside ...
And any other information on the device. Scheme. Block diagram Sketches.
The processors/trigger/measurement relationship is too complicated to document here and changes depending on the specifics of how you're measuring.  Is there some case you had in mind?  We want to try and answer your question, but we could make hundreds of different block diagrams about the box.
For example, I absolutely do not understand how I can get all the signal samples through the remote interface. Not one buffer. Namely, all data without gaps. I do not understand how the data pass. How does screen information or network communication affect information gathering? How do I communicate on the network so as not to interfere with the measurements. I do not understand how I should set up triggers and buffers so that the data is not lost and at the same time I had time to read them over the network.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 09, 2018, 09:40:19 am
Some of the internal pics for DMM6500 you can find here (https://xdevs.com/review/dmm6500/#teardown). Perhaps they can shed some more light on how it's designed and working.
Thanks for the link. But I still do not know how to reverse engineer in photography :)

Although I am very interested in the type of resistor 10 MΩ and the method of its connection to the input.

I asked about the information that can not be obtained even from the scheme. Some logical block diagram of how the device is arranged.

For example, above Brad O spoke about the set of processors that have access to data with different priority. They still communicate with each other. And it would be good to understand what cubes are, how they are connected and what interesting of them can be folded.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on December 11, 2018, 08:09:49 am
I noticed that but for the ranges where a simultaneous non-relay switching measurement, is there a script that can multiply the current and voltage and give me a power reading instead of using a shunt resistor and the voltage ratio method?
Not that I know of right now, but there could be!  I will see about making you a simple version in a little while that adapts the shunt method script.

Are there are plans to release calibration/service manual for DMM6500? I'd be interested to see the calibration points for ACV.
The calibration values are listed in the back of Reference Manual, Appendix C.  There is also a full calibration manual though over at https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-multimeter-0 (https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-multimeter-0) that describes the process to actually do the adjustments.  It's in general very similar to the DMM7510 procedure.

Oh well in that case: I gathered some info from the design engineers.  We're really quite happy to share details, but it helps us if you're specific in what you want to know and why you want to know it.  I think I addressed all the questions below:
Many thanks to Brad O for the information gathered.

Then if you do not mind, I will continue to ask questions.
Of course!

Quote
What is the input bandwidth for DCV.
From a purely hardware perspective up to but not including the ADC: up to hundreds of kHz to support the DCV digitizer function for 10V and less ranges. 100V and 1000V ranges a lot less than that due to internal 10Meg divider.  Generally similar to digitzer specs.
Does this mean that I must include an external anti-aliasing filter to eliminate the effect of spectrum overlap. And at the same time reduce the input noise level?
For digitize functions, there is a high frequency low pass filter ahead of the ADC but it is not sufficient (with respect to the noise floor) to eliminate all alias effects for a signal with content >500kHz. Whether or not that matters to your measurement depends on what the signal looks like (FFT-wise). 

If you have >500kHz content that is significant, yes, you should add additional filtering to avoid low frequency aliasing.  Generally if the > 500kHz content is small compared to the signal in band content, other specs swamp those errors and so the effect may not be noticed.

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How are the processors, trigger connected inside ...
And any other information on the device. Scheme. Block diagram Sketches.
The processors/trigger/measurement relationship is too complicated to document here and changes depending on the specifics of how you're measuring.  Is there some case you had in mind?  We want to try and answer your question, but we could make hundreds of different block diagrams about the box.
For example, I absolutely do not understand how I can get all the signal samples through the remote interface. Not one buffer. Namely, all data without gaps. I do not understand how the data pass. How does screen information or network communication affect information gathering? How do I communicate on the network so as not to interfere with the measurements. I do not understand how I should set up triggers and buffers so that the data is not lost and at the same time I had time to read them over the network.
It is definitely possible for the instrument to take data faster than it can transmit.  No remote interface has an actual "streaming" option (that is possible with KickStart, though it still isn't magically faster than the bus).  What interface are you trying to use? (LAN/USB/GPIB?)  What measurement function are you using?  What kind of sample rate are you trying to use? 

Although I am very interested in the type of resistor 10 MΩ and the method of its connection to the input.
The 10MOhm resistor is custom and isn't available on the market.  It's designed to support the temperature coefficient and time drift of the DC specs for the 100V and 1000V ranges.  It connects from HI to LO and is switched on with a low leakage analog switch when required.  Input measurements are divided by 100 through it.

Because of the large resistance and value and stray capacitance, it has a very limited signal bandwidth.  The large value also has significant thermal (johnson) noise so it should only be used on the 1V and higher ranges if possible.  The firmware default is configured to be the least confusing, not necessarily the best measurement.  Impedance is forced to 10M by default to prevent apparent errors like "My DMM is measuring 10V with nothing connected", which our support engineers used to get many, many calls about.  We recommend switching to Auto input impedance for the best measurement. 
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 11, 2018, 07:44:38 pm
For digitize functions, there is a high frequency low pass filter ahead of the ADC but it is not sufficient (with respect to the noise floor) to eliminate all alias effects for a signal with content >500kHz. Whether or not that matters to your measurement depends on what the signal looks like (FFT-wise). 
Can you show the graph of the frequency response of the filter? So that I can make decisions about the need for additional filtering?

It became clear about the digitizing V mode.

Can you tell us about the filter in DCV mode? Does DCV use the same filter with a cut-off frequency of 500 kHz?

After all, for DCV mode should the input band be already?

Quote
It is definitely possible for the instrument to take data faster than it can transmit.  No remote interface has an actual "streaming" option (that is possible with KickStart, though it still isn't magically faster than the bus).  What interface are you trying to use? (LAN/USB/GPIB?)  What measurement function are you using?  What kind of sample rate are you trying to use?

 For example, take the digitization rate of 100,000 samples / s
For 8 bytes per count it is 800,000 bytes. This is very little for any interface.

For example, it is 10% of the LAN. Or 2% of USB.

How should I set up the device so that after filling in one buffer, it will without a break begin to fill the next buffer?

---------------------------------------
And one more question:

I observe some pause between measurements in DCV. Its values are approximately 970 μs.

1NPLC = 0.02 ms + 970 μs = 50 Hz 47 Hz
0.1 NPLC = 0.002 ms + 970 μs = 500 Hz 336 Hz
0.01 NPLC = 0.0002 ms + 970 μs = 5000 Hz 854 Hz

What makes this delay?
Is it possible to somehow disable it?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on December 11, 2018, 11:38:44 pm
The extra delay between readings can have different sources. If the DMM uses a more conventional multi-slope ADC, there is some extra time for the run-down an reset phase. However nearly 1 ms would be relatively long.  There may be some extra adjustment measurements (e.g. AC scale, temperature etc. ) going on too. For a more sigma delta like ADC there can be some time for the "soft" start of the aperture window. In principle an SD like ADC could get away without an extra delay in an non AZ mode, if slight overlap / correlation is accepted.

Another possible reason maybe time for data transfer from the ADC to the display / output part of the meter. 

So it is very unlikely on could remove that extra delay.
Are these directly read delays (e.g. from the time stamp in the data file) or are these number only calculated back from the data rate ? Depending on the mode, the data may not come in at a constant rate but could include some extra delays (e.g. for auto-zero) from time to time.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 12, 2018, 01:20:51 am
However nearly 1 ms would be relatively long.
I think so too.
Quote
There may be some extra adjustment measurements (e.g. AC scale, temperature etc. ) going on too. For a more sigma delta like ADC there can be some time for the "soft" start of the aperture window.
This is not AZ. This delay is after each measurement. But I think it's worth trying without AZ.
Quote
In principle an SD like ADC could get away without an extra delay in an non AZ mode, if slight overlap / correlation is accepted.
How can I do that?
Quote
Another possible reason maybe time for data transfer from the ADC to the display / output part of the meter. 
Then the maximum operating frequency would be 1 kHz. And the device works without problems at 1 MHz.
Quote
Are these directly read delays (e.g. from the time stamp in the data file) or are these number only calculated back from the data rate ?
time stamp in the data file
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 12, 2018, 01:43:54 am
Here is the table.
It is curious that this delay is not very stable. It may be in the region of 970 μs or 936 μs.

It looks like I can not build FFT according to such data.

I understand that there are some other ways to get data. Tell me who knows them?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: TiN on December 12, 2018, 02:03:50 am
Calibration manual indeed suggests that there is temperature compensation procedures in place during normal operation.
Page 3-7 clear about it:

Quote
Disable temperature correction
Before you start your adjustment, you must turn off temperature correction. Run the following commands to turn off temperature correction.
cal.adjust.step.setup("TC_EN")
cal.adjust.step.execute("TC_EN", 0)

Brad O.
Thanks for manual, interesting read! We volt-nuts always like to know what more equipment we need to buy for calibrations  :)
I missed it before, because Tek site ain't too much friendly for old-school folk. Clicked DMM6500 -> Manuals -> Service = nothing, so I assumed it's not published yet.

Quote
Impedance is forced to 10M by default to prevent apparent errors like "My DMM is measuring 10V with nothing connected", which our support engineers used to get many, many calls about. 

Hear, hear, we get thread like that every few weeks "my meter is broken, heeelp" :).
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 13, 2018, 12:32:20 am
I calculated the time for one countdown for digitalization mode V.
1 KS / s - 924 Hz
10 KS / s - 5506 Hz
100 KS / s - 11096 Hz
1 MS / s - 13199 Hz

Tell me who knows what a set of settings should be to see 1 MS / s?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MrFox on December 13, 2018, 06:05:59 am
I calculated the time for one countdown for digitalization mode V.
1 KS / s - 924 Hz
10 KS / s - 5506 Hz
100 KS / s - 11096 Hz
1 MS / s - 13199 Hz

Tell me who knows what a set of settings should be to see 1 MS / s?
I haven't seen any problem filling a 7M buffer in exactly 7 seconds.

You can't capture in real-time at that speed through any external link. You have to use a large buffer and dump it afterward.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 13, 2018, 06:39:22 am
I haven't seen any problem filling a 7M buffer in exactly 7 seconds.

You can't capture in real-time at that speed through any external link. You have to use a large buffer and dump it afterward.
Please tell me your settings? I made measurements in the internal buffer.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 13, 2018, 07:50:51 am
I understood!!!! "Count" should be put as much as possible.

This is a very unexpected behavior.
Does the device measure or display ?? At the same time can not?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MrFox on December 13, 2018, 08:31:24 am
Yes, I always use a single manual trigger with a large count.

I guess it starts making sense when you have a trigger model running instead of auto triggering, because between each capture operation there's a lot of code to run. I find it logical the samples per seconds are stable only within the capture count.

It's a bit like a scope's segmented memory, the rate of triggering is not the same as the ADC rate.

 I really love trigger editor it's amazingly powerful, it takes a while to learn though.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 13, 2018, 08:39:14 am
I guess it starts making sense when you have a trigger model running instead of auto triggering, because between each capture operation there's a lot of code to run. I find it logical the samples per seconds are stable only within the capture count.

It's a bit like a scope's segmented memory, the rate of triggering is not the same as the ADC rate.
Unfortunately, I still do not quite understand where the trigger is connected and how it works.

But I thought that in the 21st century, working at 1 MHz is possible without any delays at the same time as the screen, calculating statistics and other actions.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MrFox on December 13, 2018, 08:44:03 am
It's because it cannot run the trigger script a million times per second. To get a guaranteed timing there's no way around setting the size of your segments.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 13, 2018, 09:50:50 am
It's because it cannot run the trigger script a million times per second. To get a guaranteed timing there's no way around setting the size of your segments.
For the digitizing V mode, is it possible to somehow disable the trigger and possibly the screen.

Are there any other ways to get continuous data in the buffer? Particularly interested in DCV mode.

Is there somewhere a tutorial on setting up triggers and writing scripts?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MrFox on December 13, 2018, 12:56:00 pm
It's because it cannot run the trigger script a million times per second. To get a guaranteed timing there's no way around setting the size of your segments.
For the digitizing V mode, is it possible to somehow disable the trigger and possibly the screen.

Are there any other ways to get continuous data in the buffer? Particularly interested in DCV mode.

Is there somewhere a tutorial on setting up triggers and writing scripts?
You mean continuously overwriting itself? It doesn't look like it, not at 1MS/s.

Not sure how it works exactly, but the buffer needs to be processed in software after each acquisition (it says "processing backlog" if it cannot do it realtime). So in very high speed digitizing modes it cannot be a free running loop regardless of the size. In fact when I set a massive buffer it automatically disable the continuous trigger, which is fine considering this is a pretty big operation to process millions of samples, calculating averages and std deviation, etc... But yeah it would have been nice to sample continuously and process only when stopping.

The trigger interface is like a visual block programming directly on the device, relatively easy when you know what you're trying to accomplish with it, much more powerful than the hard coded things I'm used to. I haven't read the manual yet I'm still playing around.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 13, 2018, 07:30:13 pm
You mean continuously overwriting itself? It doesn't look like it, not at 1MS/s.
Not necessarily yourself. One solution I see is the alternate filling of two buffers. But I am afraid that it is impossible to configure the device so that it does not lose data when switching from one buffer to another.
Quote
Not sure how it works exactly, but the buffer needs to be processed in software after each acquisition (it says "processing backlog" if it cannot do it realtime). So in very high speed digitizing modes it cannot be a free running loop regardless of the size. In fact when I set a massive buffer it automatically disable the continuous trigger, which is fine considering this is a pretty big operation to process millions of samples, calculating averages and std deviation, etc... But yeah it would have been nice to sample continuously and process only when stopping.
It amazes me that the work of calculating the mean and standard deviation is not assigned to the FPGA. As well as other mathematical operations.

It is very simple and very fast. I have a board on my desk where I calculate these numbers in real time for the signal coming from the ADC 1 GHz.
Quote
The trigger interface is like a visual block programming directly on the device, relatively easy when you know what you're trying to accomplish with it, much more powerful than the hard coded things I'm used to. I haven't read the manual yet I'm still playing around.
I'm trying to understand what he can. And until I found a textbook with pictures for dummies :)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MrFox on December 14, 2018, 03:35:50 am
Ah ok, Brad already explained it in a previous post...
The fastest is actually to use a trigger model, because there's a separate processor for it. I am curious why the default CONT mode isn't just that trigger model.

MikeP:
Probably you set the digitize Count to 1 and went into continuous trigger mode?  When you do that, triggering is handled by the display processor, so when that processor gets busy it will stop triggering and catch up with whatever else it's being told to do (like update the graph image).  That's where those gaps in data are coming from.  A couple ways around this come to mind:
  • Set a higher count to capture all the data you need.  Triggering within a Count set is handled by a separate processor that won't get caught up in display stuff, you also won't see the lines connecting separate groups of data that may be a little confusing.  The graph's smart scaling in x will by default show you the latest group of readings.
  • Use a trigger model.  Triggering from a trigger model is also handled by a separate processor and a very simple model can allow continuous data capture.  I'm attaching a script (change the .txt to .tsp to use it) where the last lines set up a trigger model that starts a digitize voltage measurement (that continues infinitely) and then stops the measurement when the TRIGGER key is pressed.  The display might lag behind slightly depending on your other settings, but there won't be any gaps in the data.  If you digitize at a really high rate then you may see a pop-up like "Processing reading backlog...".  That message means the display processor needs to catch up with the data buffer and it will stop other activities until it catches up, usually no more than a second or two.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on December 14, 2018, 04:40:41 am
There can be more calculations done than just mean and std. deviation.  Other tasks may be corrections of temperature effects. Scaling from raw data to voltage (or amps) and also filtering zero readings / offsets.

The processor at the display part is way slower than an normal PC. I would expect is to be comparable to maybe an Rasberry at most.  This processor also likely has to handle other stuff, like the display. So I kind of understand that this might not be enough to do this in real time.  Especially some filtering might be difficult in real time as it involved forward looking data.

The trigger models are a little confusing, but this the price for an instrument with so many options.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 19, 2018, 09:51:55 am
Tell me who knows:

1. Why the measurement period for 5 NPLC = 0.3 s, and not 0.1 s.
2. Which setting or script allows you to take measurements in DCV mode at regular intervals. How can this be done in digitize V mode using the Count setting?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 19, 2018, 10:02:43 am
3. Measurement time for 10 NPLC have an exponential beginning?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on December 19, 2018, 06:49:37 pm
3. Measurement time for 10 NPLC have an exponential beginning?

Was the instrument warmed up?
Was the source stable?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 19, 2018, 07:03:21 pm
Was the instrument warmed up?
Was the source stable?
On the graph, time, not voltage.
These old ones seem to be from version 1.6.3 in the new one, I could not repeat it. Perhaps this has already been fixed. If I can guarantee it to repeat, I will definitely write it.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on December 20, 2018, 12:21:54 am
My DMM6500 arrived a few days ago and it seems to be spot on in the 10V range calibration, with my 10.0000V source.

I did a warmup comparison between the DMM7510 and the new DMM6500.
They behave very differently, but after about 2 min, they are almost completely warmed up.

But interestingly, the DMM6500 is almost as fast in the warmup time as the DMM7510. Definitely much faster than all the Keysight DMMs.

So far, I am very happy with the DMM6500.
Especially, since it came with the free Kickstarter software license.

Edit: Mislabeled pictures
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 20, 2018, 12:26:52 am
They behave very differently, but after about 2 min, they are almost completely warmed up.
I watched a warming 7510 at a range of 0.1V with shorted inputs. Oscillations are established in 1.5 hours as indicated in the specification.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on December 20, 2018, 12:31:51 am
Yes, I am not saying the instruments are warmed up to metrology specs after 2 min !
But it is impressive, how fast these two Keithley instruments warm up in comparison to other brands.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 20, 2018, 12:34:35 am
Yes, I am not saying the instruments are warmed up to metrology specs after 2 min !
But it is impressive, how fast these two Keithley instruments warm up in comparison to other brands.
Yes, no doubt they are very quickly ready to work. And they also enter the specification very quickly.

I talked about the complete completion of transients for maximum accuracy.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on December 20, 2018, 02:28:02 am
After a good warmup, I had both, the DMM7510 and the DMM6500 on the same 10V source in parallel.
Both instruments on 5 NPLC, 10 MOhm, AutoZero ON

Why would I get such a jump in the middle of the DMM6500 graph?

Also interesting (funny):
The DMM6500 counts the x-axis with [h:m:s] and the DMM7500 in [ks]

I will repeat this now with 10 NPLC and Average Filter ON


Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on December 21, 2018, 06:52:34 am
HighVoltage
 Thanks for your experiment. Can you make this measurement with 1NPLC for both DMM's also? Can you show statistical data for all experiments? Thanks again.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on December 21, 2018, 08:09:42 am
Both graphs for the 7510 and 6500 show a problem with the scaling. There is no way to tel the actual scale. I know this a rather extreme case, but the labeling could get some improvement. Maybe make sure the ticks are not fixed pixel width but something like a 1-2-5-10 sequence in real voltage / current and than somewhere also show the distance. So a little like with scopes.

The steps look a lot like popcorn noise. Likely from the 6500 internal reference, as from other points in the DMM such an error should be corrected by AZ mode.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on December 21, 2018, 10:07:38 am
Time for another mass response!  I tried to address everything that other users haven't answered already.

First of all, there's been a new firmware release, 1.0.03.  It's not a major one though, it mostly includes emulation mode and some VISA communication fixes that were heavily requested.  One notable thing, the 2700 triggering on pin 6 of the DIO port that Jens01 asked about (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg1743824/#msg1743824) has been fixed so that the DAQ6510 triggers properly now.  The links have the full release notes. 
For the DAQ6510: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1003-and-release-notes (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1003-and-release-notes)
For the DMM6500: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1003-and-release-notes (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1003-and-release-notes)

Can you show the graph of the frequency response of the filter? So that I can make decisions about the need for additional filtering?

It became clear about the digitizing V mode.
I can try making a graph next if this doesn't answer your questions but I think I'd have to order some equipment to make a good one.  This answer comes from the hardware team:
The filter can be modelled as a simple low pass filter with a time constant of ~ 150ns putting the transition at around 1MHz. Investigate what that means to your signal input being digitized. There are higher poles also between 5MHz and 50Mhz but the upper limit response is dominated by the ~ 1MHz.

Suggestions for best added anti-alias additional filtering to really kill the artifacts. These match up well to the internal ADC. The more poles the better until ~ 8:
8 pole BESSEL type low pass filter set at ~ 400kHz – use this if you want to preserve signal waveform fidelity/accuracy (constant group delay, won’t show dispersive effects)
8 Pole MFB or BUTTERWORTH low pass type set at ~ 450kHz – use this for best attenuation, has pass band ripple (can be designed for < 1%), has some dispersion.

NOTE: The suggested pole locations are chosen to support the full input bandwidth of the digitizer for all signals. If that’s actually not needed and you wish to tailor it to your signal, the it is better to place these poles approximately 1 decade higher  than your highest signal frequency of interest. This will optimize it for your specific signal achieving the highest input noise attenuation. When implementing your filter, keep resistances < 20k if possible to avoid making additional high frequency noise sources.

Example1: Square wave(PWM etc..) just want to see the signal,  – need full BW set to just below 500kHz (400, 450 is as in above suggestions)  with appropriate # of poles can use any type. Consider no filter at all if you aren’t looking at low frequencies that could be aliased and you really want highest bandwidth.
Example2: Noisy sinewaves, ramps etc.. and care about amplitude accuracy < 10kHz. Set at ~ 150kHz and use Bessel up to 8 poles.

NOTE: If you design an input filter, keep in mind the DC specifications. The digitizer function is specified for DC performance and if you want to preserve that, you will need to select the right components for your filter.
The hardware was designed to not force an artificial bandwidth limitation so that it can be the most flexible for all applications. Programmable HW filtering options were considered but the team decided to leave them out to make the unit as versatile as possible.

How should I set up the device so that after filling in one buffer, it will without a break begin to fill the next buffer?
I don't think this is possible and I'm not sure why you would want to do this, wouldn't it be better to set one buffer to the maximum size than have 2 half size buffers?  Do you want all the data you're taking or are you aggregating it in some way?  If you're processing, it might be possible to use a TSP script.  If you want all the readings directly, you're limited by the bus speeds.

Brad O.
Thanks for manual, interesting read! We volt-nuts always like to know what more equipment we need to buy for calibrations  :)
I missed it before, because Tek site ain't too much friendly for old-school folk. Clicked DMM6500 -> Manuals -> Service = nothing, so I assumed it's not published yet.
Ah it looks like the web team assigned it as a User manual, I think that's a mistake.  I filed a bug report to have them update the classification, I fully understand your confusion.  I'm also working with the web team to improve the way tek.com handles documents like these, you're not the only one to have problems finding things.

After a good warmup, I had both, the DMM7510 and the DMM6500 on the same 10V source in parallel.
Both instruments on 5 NPLC, 10 MOhm, AutoZero ON

Why would I get such a jump in the middle of the DMM6500 graph?
That does look strange and I don't like it.  I'll try to reproduce it after the Holidays.  Was your source a custom 10V reference?  I would expect popcorn noise to have a shorter duration but it's a possibility. 

Also interesting (funny):
The DMM6500 counts the x-axis with [h:m:s] and the DMM7500 in [ks]
This was specifically done for the DAQ6510, but I think the change to [h:m:s] is slated to go in the next 7510 firmware too.  I think it makes a lot more sense than kiloseconds. 

Both graphs for the 7510 and 6500 show a problem with the scaling. There is no way to tel the actual scale. I know this a rather extreme case, but the labeling could get some improvement. Maybe make sure the ticks are not fixed pixel width but something like a 1-2-5-10 sequence in real voltage / current and than somewhere also show the distance. So a little like with scopes.
The firmware team is looking into ways to improve labeling when you have a super stable signal like that.  I don't know where they are in that process, but that's on the docket to be addressed.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on December 21, 2018, 10:09:31 am
It's because it cannot run the trigger script a million times per second. To get a guaranteed timing there's no way around setting the size of your segments.
For the digitizing V mode, is it possible to somehow disable the trigger and possibly the screen.

Are there any other ways to get continuous data in the buffer? Particularly interested in DCV mode.

Is there somewhere a tutorial on setting up triggers and writing scripts?
If you want the minimum spacing between each reading: disable autoranging and autozero, and set a count or use a trigger model (Setting a count is the easiest). 
Here's a small walk through on how to use the trigger model to have equal spacing between your measurements, where the spacing you want isn't necessarily the minimum.  There's an image of the final model attached.

We just created a trigger model, so what does it do?  First we notify a timer, all that really does is start the timer.  Then we measure with what ever measurement settings are currently configured.  Note that the model doesn't specify what the measurement is or even what settings to use for it, only to take one.  This means you need to set up your measurement settings before you start this trigger model.
Then we wait for the timer we started in block 1 to expire, finally we branch back to block one where we start the timer again. 

What if I set a short timer so that it expires before the measurement is done? Block 3 will know that the timer has already expired so the model will leave the block immediately. 
What if there's a problem with my trigger model? The model editor will show you where it is in the trigger model while it's running.  If you abort the model, it'll show a little red error symbol next to the block it was in when you aborted, probably meaning there's a problem with that block.

Hopefully this is helpful for you all.  All the trigger model blocks and their options are explained in detail in the Reference Manual starting on page 317/9-28.  It is very powerful, but definitely different from what you might be used to.  Once you have a trigger model you like, you can save it as an instrument setup and recall it any time (an instrument setup WILL know your measurement settings, unlike the trigger model itself).  You can then export that setup as a TSP script to use on a different instrument or edit it directly in a text editor.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on December 21, 2018, 09:09:54 pm

After a good warmup, I had both, the DMM7510 and the DMM6500 on the same 10V source in parallel.
Both instruments on 5 NPLC, 10 MOhm, AutoZero ON

Why would I get such a jump in the middle of the DMM6500 graph?
That does look strange and I don't like it.  I'll try to reproduce it after the Holidays.  Was your source a custom 10V reference?  I would expect popcorn noise to have a shorter duration but it's a possibility. 


Thanks for looking in to that.
The source is a very old, but stable Fluke 731B
And as you can see in the comparison to the DMM7510, the signal is stable.
This problem is repeatable, at least on my 6500 !


Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on December 21, 2018, 10:14:36 pm
...
This problem is repeatable, at least on my 6500 !

How repeatable ?  I would be very surprised if the jumps would occur at the same time again - that would be an unlikely software problem.
For popcorn noise one can expect the same size jumps (for a given meter), but at different times. Other meters could have smaller (or larger) jumps of less frequent ones.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on December 21, 2018, 10:41:57 pm
...
This problem is repeatable, at least on my 6500 !

How repeatable ?  I would be very surprised if the jumps would occur at the same time again - that would be an unlikely software problem.
For popcorn noise one can expect the same size jumps (for a given meter), but at different times. Other meters could have smaller (or larger) jumps of less frequent ones.

Just the jump is repeatable it happens randomly just once in a while.
Its about the same height but sometimes shorter, sometimes longer.
Sometimes the instrument can run for a long time and there are no jumps at all.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on December 21, 2018, 11:20:11 pm
HighVoltage
 Thanks for your experiment. Can you make this measurement with 1NPLC for both DMM's also? Can you show statistical data for all experiments? Thanks again.

Here you go.
Both instruments are parallel on a Fluke 731B
Both instruments are on 1 NPLC and no Filter

I is nice to see how well both instruments agree on the 10V value of my source.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 22, 2018, 02:18:48 am
Hooray!!!! Brad O is back :))
I already thought that I asked a lot of questions :)
Thank you for being with us.
I can try making a graph next if this doesn't answer your questions but I think I'd have to order some equipment to make a good one.  This answer comes from the hardware team:
The filter can be modelled as a simple low pass filter with a time constant of ~ 150ns putting the transition at around 1MHz. Investigate what that means to your signal input being digitized. There are higher poles also between 5MHz and 50Mhz but the upper limit response is dominated by the ~ 1MHz.
This answer is quite enough. No need to purchase equipment.

And this information is sad. I always have to think about filtering. And no matter what mode of operation is selected. In other words, the filtering issue is completely on the user.

To be honest, I expected that for at least part of this development is closed by engineers Keithley.
Especially for the DCV mode when the sampling frequency of the signal is small. And it is logical to expect that the appropriate filters are connected inside.
Quote
Suggestions for best added anti-alias additional filtering to really kill the artifacts.
Thank.

Quote
I don't think this is possible and I'm not sure why you would want to do this, wouldn't it be better to set one buffer to the maximum size than have 2 half size buffers?  Do you want all the data you're taking or are you aggregating it in some way?  If you're processing, it might be possible to use a TSP script.  If you want all the readings directly, you're limited by the bus speeds.

Oh yes :( I already understood this. All I could get from the device is about 300 kilobytes per second. This is 3% for LAN and less than 1% for USB. I expected more. And I hoped that I could receive all data remotely without losses.

If you want the minimum spacing between each reading: disable autoranging and autozero, and set a count or use a trigger model (Setting a count is the easiest).  Here's a small walk through on how to use the trigger model to have equal spacing between your measurements, where the spacing you want isn't necessarily the minimum.  There's an image of the final model attached.
Thank you so much for this information. I will definitely try this example.

I thought that the issue of jitter when digitizing is solved by hardware. And the program should not influence it.

And in order to use the full potential of the ADC, we must have a very low level of jitter.

For the 350kHz signal bandwidth and the ADC even 20bit (120 dB). Jitter should be no more than 0.5 ns.

And I thought that I would not need to conjure with software to get this accuracy. I was hoping that this was already done in FPGA.

------------------------

I sketched a block diagram of the device as I understand it. It is very simple and does not display many details.

But I still do not see on it fatal errors that would interfere with the transfer of all data without loss. And maintain a stable sampling rate of the ADC signals.

I am ready to correct it so that it more corresponds to the truth. I think it will be useful.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on December 22, 2018, 02:43:35 am
HighVoltage
 Some time ago, I was surprised to find that the best accuracy for resistances at 1-2 PLC. It is very interesting to find the dependence of accuracy/PLC for voltage.
 Which PLC has the smallest error? 10-5 or 1 PLC at the same conditions. I think you know the true voltage of your 731.
 Thanks.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on December 22, 2018, 03:26:19 am
The AD7982 is 18 Bits only - so the jitter requirement would be lower. Another point is that large signal bandwidth is usually considerably lower than the small signal BW. So the worst case 300 kHz signal is lower amplitude. In addition one could accept some extra error in these extreme cases when that is a large signal. So no need to have jitter effect below the quantization error even under worst case conditions.
If reasonably well programmed the trigger could still be accurate down to the clock jitter level and thus down to the sub ns range if really needed.

It is very hard to tell which PLC setting is more accurate: usually there should be very little difference. If at all there could be some extra error (e.g. waiting for settling and maybe extra INL) for the fast modes. The calibration should normally use more of a slower high resolution mode so that these modes would be the most accurate.

There might be a little higher or lower noise for some speeds, especially of one compare something like a 10 PLC mode with the average of 1 PLC conversions. The slow modes like 100 PLC are internally made as averaging shorter conversions and usually the choice here should be reasonable good for best performance.  Even without filtering enabled, there seem to be some filtering going on for the zero measurements of the AZ mode. This can be tricky when comparing different speed, as the readings are not 100% independent, bit slightly correlated. So noise estimates for the average value from the std. dev values can be a little on the optimistic side.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 22, 2018, 06:08:45 am
The AD7982 is 18 Bits only - so the jitter requirement would be lower.
I talked about the ADC multislope.

The AD7982, with the Count parameter set, perfectly fills the buffer with zero jitter. It's fine.

But attempts to get the same with the exact ADC are not yet obtained.

Here is a picture with all disabled AUTO ...

A jitter of around 1µs is a pure 50 dB. It is very sad :(
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on December 22, 2018, 06:32:39 am
For the relatively slow multi-slope ADC, jitter is much less critical.  Having the second faster ADC in parallel, I would assume there is little sense to use it for much below 1 ms integration.
 
With so many options for triggering the jitter likely depends on the trigger type used.

Depending on the type of ADC, there could also be inherent jitter - especially the continuous integrating ADCs can have intrinsic uncertainties in the exact aperture. Some versions also have a non rectangular aperture, using a soft start and stop that represents some extra filtering.
Still 1 µs jitter would be pretty high, though in most cases not a problem, as the relevant frequencies are low  (e.g. <= 120 Hz).
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 22, 2018, 07:00:34 am
Here's a small walk through on how to use the trigger model to have equal spacing between your measurements, where the spacing you want isn't necessarily the minimum.
I checked this model. Unfortunately, it has the same 1 μs jitter.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 22, 2018, 07:05:33 am
Still 1 µs jitter would be pretty high, though in most cases not a problem, as the relevant frequencies are low  (e.g. <= 120 Hz).
Yes, it seems so.

But at the same time I lost AZ
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on December 22, 2018, 08:13:42 am
There should also be a way to get a constant sampling rate with AZ mode active.  It may not be that fast (e.g. sampling rate near 24/29 Hz) but ideally should allow for a reasonable constant rate.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 22, 2018, 06:58:30 pm
There should also be a way to get a constant sampling rate with AZ mode active.  It may not be that fast (e.g. sampling rate near 24/29 Hz) but ideally should allow for a reasonable constant rate.
Yes it is. But it will be necessary to lower the sampling rate 3 times. And the time of data collection will increase 3 times. :(
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on December 25, 2018, 04:12:56 am
Tell me who knows: how to correctly determine that the buffer filling in the device is over? For example, set Count = 1000 with 10 NPLC. It's half an hour. What should I ask the device to find out if it has finished?

I tried to find out
defbuffer1.endindex
defbuffer1.n

But always the data collection stopped.

What should I ask the device in order not to interfere with its data collection?

Or should I calculate the time myself and maintain the timeout?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Jens01 on January 08, 2019, 05:22:29 am
There is one thing which did not migrated properly: external triggering using the Digital I/O connector in K2700 emulation mode. We had to (re)connect the trigger line to the BNC connector on te back of unit to make it work.
I see what you're talking about, I couldn't get it to work either.  I know 2700 emulation was tested pretty extensively so I'm not sure if there's a problem with the manual or the emulation mode.  The person who tested it is out this week, so I'll get back to you next week with an update.  I'm glad you were able to get your triggering to work over BNC though!

upgrading to V1.0.03 fixed the issue. :-+

Another question regarding the K2700 emulation-mode: the K2700 has a a current range of 0 ... 20 mA, the DAQ6510 only has 0 ... 10 mA or 0 ... 100mA ranges. In emulation-mode a 0 ... 20mA range is available, but how is this implemented? Nothing more than  0 ... 100mA range capped at 20mA?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on January 08, 2019, 11:56:36 am
HighVoltage
 Thanks for your experiment. Can you make this measurement with 1NPLC for both DMM's also? Can you show statistical data for all experiments? Thanks again.

Here you go.
Both instruments are parallel on a Fluke 731B
Both instruments are on 1 NPLC and no Filter

I is nice to see how well both instruments agree on the 10V value of my source.

Nice to see performance of both instruments at a 731B reference.
This gives me an idea of how to classify my dmm6500 and my 10V selfmade reference:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/build-a-10v-buffer-inside-the-teko371-ltz1000-box/msg1611664/#msg1611664 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/build-a-10v-buffer-inside-the-teko371-ltz1000-box/msg1611664/#msg1611664)

First 3 pic with 1 NPLC and no Filter, but i measure my references with
5 NPLC and FILTER REPEAT COUNT 10
last 3 pics. Temp 20.5°C

Edit: Attach log (open document format ods, should be excel compatible)

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on January 09, 2019, 03:51:55 am
hwj-d

 Thanks for experiments. Can you make it with 10 PLC?
 (I think we will get the same 10.00000)  :scared:
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on January 09, 2019, 12:53:05 pm
Hello MikeP,

I can't see actually no expressive difference between measuring a ltz1000 reference with lm399 based dmm6500 with 5 or 10 NLPC. The result is the same as shown, setting isn't more accurate. Also filtering do show everything else than more the truth, because we try to measure the missing 7th digit with a higher noisy dmm as the reference itself.  ;)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on January 10, 2019, 03:43:45 pm
One interesting Application Note:
Data Logging of Power Profiles from Wireless IoT and Other Low-Power Devices Using the DMM6500
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2607097.pdf
 (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2607097.pdf)
Some scripting tips inside  :-+


Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on January 10, 2019, 07:13:26 pm
Some scripting tips inside  :-+
Thank. Examples are good.
I found this document:
It is for the oscilloscope but you can understand the principles of operation.

And a document from competitors. With some details, attainable speeds and other interesting information.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on January 11, 2019, 03:44:57 am
I didn't see any DMM6500 Reference Manual in the moment, as it is there for the DMM7510.
The only command-, syntax-reference to the DMM6500 TSP (-TekVISA) is encapsulated as html-xml in Win-TextScriptBuilder.  :-//
Don't know if i be allowed to publish the extracted web help as zip here in the forum (asking Brad-O)?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: BitWrangler1001 on January 11, 2019, 04:35:05 am
I didn't see any DMM6500 Reference Manual in the moment, as it is there for the DMM7510.
The only command-, syntax-reference to the DMM6500 TSP (-TekVISA) is encapsulated as html-xml in Win-TextScriptBuilder.  :-//
Don't know if i be allowed to publish the extracted web help as zip here in the forum (asking Brad-O)?

https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-bench-system-0 (https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-bench-system-0)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on January 11, 2019, 04:41:23 am
Don't know if i be allowed to publish the extracted web help as zip here in the forum (asking Brad-O)?
That would be very convenient. I only use TSB to read help :)))

If it's not difficult for you to make me 7510 :) please.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on January 11, 2019, 04:45:16 am
https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-bench-system-0 (https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-bench-system-0)
Ah, ok, thanks.
(Don't know, why I didn't found that :-/O )
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on January 11, 2019, 05:32:08 am
Hello MikeP,

I can't see actually no expressive difference between measuring a ltz1000 reference with lm399 based dmm6500 with 5 or 10 NLPC. The result is the same as shown, setting isn't more accurate. Also filtering do show everything else than more the truth, because we try to measure the missing 7th digit with a higher noisy dmm as the reference itself.  ;)
This is good news. I was interested in the REAL and PRACTICAL difference in PLC - settings. Thanks.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on January 11, 2019, 09:27:41 am
Don't know if i be allowed to publish the extracted web help as zip here in the forum (asking Brad-O)?
That would be very convenient. I only use TSB to read help :)))

If it's not difficult for you to make me 7510 :) please.

For the DMM6500 it is:

DMM6500 command reference
-----------------------------
Remote commands
../topic/com.keithley.keithleyide.docDMM6500/DMM6500_introduction_to_TSP_operation.htm
file:///X:xx/yy/zz/doc/DMM6500_introduction_to_TSP_operation.htm

TSP command reference
../topic/com.keithley.keithleyide.docDMM6500/DMM6500_TSP_command_reference.htm
file:///X:xx/yy/zz/doc/DMM6500_TSP_command_reference.htm

Additional DMM6500 information
../topic/com.keithley.keithleyide.docDMM6500/46200.htm
file:///X:xx/yy/zz/doc/46200.htm
-----------------------------
where you extract the doc.zip

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mipcgq0y89s1fp0/doc.zip?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/mipcgq0y89s1fp0/doc.zip?dl=0)

But, if i saw the Reference Manual to late, it is pretty the same as in the PDF. The themes are hyperlinked in the manual.

So, i believe, tell me, no need to explicide extract that 7510 file. ;-)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on January 12, 2019, 05:24:19 am
So, i believe, tell me, no need to explicide extract that 7510 file. ;-)
;)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on January 12, 2019, 06:37:30 pm
Update:

As i see now, there is a big difference between Reference Manual 7510 and Reference Manual 6500:
So, the use of the above mentioned, extracted, intern correct linked HTML-Helpfile-Doc's for workflow TSP programming make sense, till the Reference Manual 6500 is corrected.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on January 13, 2019, 10:40:21 pm
6500: https://xdevs.com/review/dmm6500/#manual
7510: https://doc.xdevs.com/article/keithley-instruments/#7510
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: jancumps on January 14, 2019, 11:09:26 am
Is there a manual for APP development for the DMM6500? I have the code of the Intro application, one that can load images to the LCD. I can't locate a manual that describes te image format and how to load it.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: jancumps on January 14, 2019, 11:45:49 am
Answering my own question:
Create a PNG image
Convert to BASE64
Then add at the end of the application script between:

loadimage <name> <script>
BASE64 data
endimage
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: jancumps on January 14, 2019, 12:04:21 pm
That was easy :)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/?action=dlattach;attach=622831;image)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on January 22, 2019, 08:49:59 am
I try to get uniform readings in Digitize_V mode.

The best I could get looks like this. But there are a number of strange regular artifacts. The main number of readings has a deviation of no more than 1 ns. But a number of calculations following about 100 counts have a larger deviation of up to 40 ns. Single emissions up to 120 ns.

On the graphs on the X axis time. On the Y axis, the deviation of the duration of 1 measurement from the ideal. In this case, from 100 μs.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on January 22, 2019, 11:27:13 am
I try to get uniform readings in Digitize_V mode.

The best I could get looks like this. But there are a number of strange regular artifacts. The main number of readings has a deviation of no more than 1 ns. But a number of calculations following about 100 counts have a larger deviation of up to 40 ns. Single emissions up to 120 ns.

On the graphs on the X axis time. On the Y axis, the deviation of the duration of 1 measurement from the ideal. In this case, from 100 μs.

Are those DigiV measurements with the 7510 or 6500?

Update:

As i see now, there is a big difference between Reference Manual 7510 and Reference Manual 6500:
  • the Links in the 6500 Manual are not working,
    (DMM6500-901-01 Rev. A / April 2018)
  • the Links in the 7510 Manual do!
So, the use of the above mentioned, extracted, intern correct linked HTML-Helpfile-Doc's for workflow TSP programming make sense, till the Reference Manual 6500 is corrected.
The hyperlinks in the manual are working fine for me with Adobe Acrobat, is anyone else have trouble?  Try downloading directly from Tek.com... 
Also, the TSB command help files are compiled from the same source the Reference Manuals are compiled from.  You can access the TSB version of the help directly without going through TSB with (in  Windows 10 at least): Windows Key > Keithley Instruments folder > TSB for 65XX Documentation.  Or, just keep the Reference Manual pdf open and jump back to page 17, where the TSP command list starts.

That was easy :)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/?action=dlattach;attach=622831;image)
Awesome! Doubly impressive since we haven't publicly documented that!  We are working on documentation for the apps to release sometime later this year, the commands are still very fluid as we make some apps ourselves and figure out how we'd like the commands to work.  If you have some ideas for what you'd like to do with the interface could you send them along to me?  We're trying to put together a "wish list" of apps, I could also send you some of the documentation we have right now.

Hello MikeP,

I can't see actually no expressive difference between measuring a ltz1000 reference with lm399 based dmm6500 with 5 or 10 NLPC. The result is the same as shown, setting isn't more accurate. Also filtering do show everything else than more the truth, because we try to measure the missing 7th digit with a higher noisy dmm as the reference itself.  ;)
Unless you are expecting recurring noise at a frequency lower than 1 PLC (i.e. you expect some 30 Hz noise, then use 2 PLC), the 6500 will return the best results at 1 PLC.  I would recommend averaging rather than higher PLC settings to reduce noise.

Also thank you for all the data, I'm still looking into that shifting level issue you saw with a couple other engineers.

There is one thing which did not migrated properly: external triggering using the Digital I/O connector in K2700 emulation mode. We had to (re)connect the trigger line to the BNC connector on te back of unit to make it work.
I see what you're talking about, I couldn't get it to work either.  I know 2700 emulation was tested pretty extensively so I'm not sure if there's a problem with the manual or the emulation mode.  The person who tested it is out this week, so I'll get back to you next week with an update.  I'm glad you were able to get your triggering to work over BNC though!

upgrading to V1.0.03 fixed the issue. :-+

Another question regarding the K2700 emulation-mode: the K2700 has a a current range of 0 ... 20 mA, the DAQ6510 only has 0 ... 10 mA or 0 ... 100mA ranges. In emulation-mode a 0 ... 20mA range is available, but how is this implemented? Nothing more than  0 ... 100mA range capped at 20mA?
Ah yeah, that's a weird quirk.  2700 Emulation mode ignores the 20mA range and will only use the 100mA range.  You can see this if you're watching the front panel when you set the range with CONF:CURR.  I'll mention that to manuals, it should probably be explicitly called out in the Emulation Manual.

Tell me who knows: how to correctly determine that the buffer filling in the device is over? For example, set Count = 1000 with 10 NPLC. It's half an hour. What should I ask the device to find out if it has finished?

I tried to find out
defbuffer1.endindex
defbuffer1.n

But always the data collection stopped.

What should I ask the device in order not to interfere with its data collection?

Or should I calculate the time myself and maintain the timeout?
It sounds like you're in continuous mode and then send the box a query over the remote interface, is that right?  Continuous mode isn't available when you're using the remote interface, so the box will always leave it and go to Manual Trigger mode if you send it a command (which puts the box into remote mode).  The commands you listed are a good way to find how full the buffer is (in combination with defbuffer1.capacity) but unless you start the measurement from a remote interface, going into remote mode will interrupt your measurement.

Here's a small walk through on how to use the trigger model to have equal spacing between your measurements, where the spacing you want isn't necessarily the minimum.
I checked this model. Unfortunately, it has the same 1 μs jitter.
With the settings I gave?  I see <100ns variation off of 1s between each reading.  I'll put together a script tomorrow for you to try.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on January 22, 2019, 07:18:42 pm
Are those DigiV measurements with the 7510 or 6500?
I was working with 7510. It was necessary to indicate this.

It seems to me that they are very similar? Or is it not?
Quote
It sounds like you're in continuous mode and then send the box a query over the remote interface, is that right?  Continuous mode isn't available when you're using the remote interface, so the box will always leave it and go to Manual Trigger mode if you send it a command (which puts the box into remote mode).  The commands you listed are a good way to find how full the buffer is (in combination with defbuffer1.capacity) but unless you start the measurement from a remote interface, going into remote mode will interrupt your measurement.
Yes that's right. I did not know about this feature. And I ran the measurements manually on the instrument and tried to read them remotely. It turned out that this can not be done. It is necessary to run and read data remotely.

Now I can read the data during the measurements except NPLC value <0.15 If the NPLC <0.15 device does not respond to requests. As I understand it before the completion of the measurements.

Quote
With the settings I gave?  I see <100ns variation off of 1s between each reading.  I'll put together a script tomorrow for you to try.
It is very interesting. It looks like I do not notice some important nuance. I will try to show the results that I get.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on January 23, 2019, 01:20:19 am

Update:

As i see now, there is a big difference between Reference Manual 7510 and Reference Manual 6500:
  • the Links in the 6500 Manual are not working,
    (DMM6500-901-01 Rev. A / April 2018)
  • the Links in the 7510 Manual do!
So, the use of the above mentioned, extracted, intern correct linked HTML-Helpfile-Doc's for workflow TSP programming make sense, till the Reference Manual 6500 is corrected.
The hyperlinks in the manual are working fine for me with Adobe Acrobat, is anyone else have trouble?  Try downloading directly from Tek.com... 
Also, the TSB command help files are compiled from the same source the Reference Manuals are compiled from.  You can access the TSB version of the help directly without going through TSB with (in  Windows 10 at least): Windows Key > Keithley Instruments folder > TSB for 65XX Documentation.  Or, just keep the Reference Manual pdf open and jump back to page 17, where the TSP command list starts.


Hmm, that's weird.

Are there different Reference Manuals: DMM6500-901-01 Rev. A / April 2018?
Downloaded from:
https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-bench-system-0 (https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-bench-system-0)

Look at pictures, green are real hyperlinks, red are no hyperlinks, only colored text.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on January 23, 2019, 06:10:59 am
Are those DigiV measurements with the 7510 or 6500?
I was working with 7510. It was necessary to indicate this.

It seems to me that they are very similar? Or is it not?
They are similar, but there are a few differences, this is one of them.  The 7510 has different specs for its timestamps when digitizing than the DMM6500/DAQ6510, (search for "timestamp" in the 7510 datasheet to see the lines I'll be mentioning) the timestamp resolution is 1ns for standard buffers so that's why you're seeing that small variation, the actual difference is probably less.  The timestamp accuracy is spec'd to "20ns between adjacent readings".  What it means is there's 20ns of uncertainty between adjacent readings, so two readings could potentially be 40ns apart, as you're seeing.  The reason for this discrepancy, incidentally, is that the 7510 uses different clocks for timestamps and digitized readings that sync up every so often.  In actuality, the digitized readings are probably much closer together than what the timestamps say, it's the timestamps with the uncertainty, not the readings.

The 120ns difference is most likely those 2 clocks syncing.  Rather than explaining that in the datahseet, it just says the "20ns between adjacent readings" is valid "with total buffer time <2 s", after that those larger timestamp differences may appear.  Once again, these specs are for the 7510, NOT the 6500/6510 which use the same clock for readings and timestamps.

With the settings I gave?  I see <100ns variation off of 1s between each reading.  I'll put together a script tomorrow for you to try.
It is very interesting. It looks like I do not notice some important nuance. I will try to show the results that I get.
Try this script I'm attaching (same deal, change .txt to .tsp and run on the instrument), it's the same one I described in this message. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg2056225/#msg2056225)  It'll take 100 readings on the 10V DCV range each 1s apart, just to make sure you're not missing anything.  Like I said, I saw <100ns difference between timestamps, you should see somewhere around that.


Update:

As i see now, there is a big difference between Reference Manual 7510 and Reference Manual 6500:
  • the Links in the 6500 Manual are not working,
    (DMM6500-901-01 Rev. A / April 2018)
  • the Links in the 7510 Manual do!
So, the use of the above mentioned, extracted, intern correct linked HTML-Helpfile-Doc's for workflow TSP programming make sense, till the Reference Manual 6500 is corrected.
The hyperlinks in the manual are working fine for me with Adobe Acrobat, is anyone else have trouble?  Try downloading directly from Tek.com... 
Also, the TSB command help files are compiled from the same source the Reference Manuals are compiled from.  You can access the TSB version of the help directly without going through TSB with (in  Windows 10 at least): Windows Key > Keithley Instruments folder > TSB for 65XX Documentation.  Or, just keep the Reference Manual pdf open and jump back to page 17, where the TSP command list starts.


Hmm, that's weird.

Are there different Reference Manuals: DMM6500-901-01 Rev. A / April 2018?
Downloaded from:
https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-bench-system-0 (https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-bench-system-0)

Look at pictures, green are real hyperlinks, red are no hyperlinks, only colored text.

Ahhh, I see what you mean, try clicking the page number instead of the function name, does that work?

I had to go ask manuals about this one, the tool our manuals department uses broke on those function links when the DMM6500 manual was compiled and no one noticed until after it was on the web.  The page numbers should work everywhere though, they're generated via a different method.  All those links will be fixed in the next manual update in March.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on January 23, 2019, 10:10:07 am
Quote
Ahhh, I see what you mean, try clicking the page number instead of the function name, does that work?

Thanks Brad, that's it. Besides this big "fake"-hyperlinks i didn't register the clickable page numbers at all.  ???

Quote
All those links will be fixed in the next manual update in March.

 :-+
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on January 23, 2019, 10:18:52 am
The 7510 has different specs for its timestamps when digitizing than the DMM6500/DAQ6510, (search for "timestamp" in the 7510 datasheet to see the lines I'll be mentioning) the timestamp resolution is 1ns for standard buffers so that's why you're seeing that small variation, the actual difference is probably less.  The timestamp accuracy is spec'd to "20ns between adjacent readings".  What it means is there's 20ns of uncertainty between adjacent readings, so two readings could potentially be 40ns apart, as you're seeing.
Oh yes :( I don't read the fine print well.

OK :( +/- 20 ns meet specifications. But 100 ns is already beyond the specification. Plus in DCV modes, the spread is more than 100ns :(

Quote
The reason for this discrepancy, incidentally, is that the 7510 uses different clocks for timestamps and digitized readings that sync up every so often.  In actuality, the digitized readings are probably much closer together than what the timestamps say, it's the timestamps with the uncertainty, not the readings.
Is there any chance that this will be fixed in 7510? After all then all sense of timestamp is lost.

Plus it seems to me that the synchronization of two hours can explain a single time failure. But on the chart I see triple crashes. And in some modes, I can find more bad samples.

Quote
Try this script I'm attaching (same deal, change .txt to .tsp and run on the instrument), it's the same one I described in this message. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg2056225/#msg2056225)  It'll take 100 readings on the 10V DCV range each 1s apart, just to make sure you're not missing anything.  Like I said, I saw <100ns difference between timestamps, you should see somewhere around that.
I ran this script from the device (just fixed BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE on BLOCK_MEASURE for the second block). And I got a constant error of 17.5 μs on each measurement and the peak to peak spread is the peak of 2500 ns.

Data in the attachment.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on January 24, 2019, 05:50:42 am
The 7510 has different specs for its timestamps when digitizing than the DMM6500/DAQ6510, (search for "timestamp" in the 7510 datasheet to see the lines I'll be mentioning) the timestamp resolution is 1ns for standard buffers so that's why you're seeing that small variation, the actual difference is probably less.  The timestamp accuracy is spec'd to "20ns between adjacent readings".  What it means is there's 20ns of uncertainty between adjacent readings, so two readings could potentially be 40ns apart, as you're seeing.
Oh yes :( I don't read the fine print well.

OK :( +/- 20 ns meet specifications. But 100 ns is already beyond the specification. Plus in DCV modes, the spread is more than 100ns :(
100ns fits within the specs if your buffer is longer than 2s.  In non-digitize measurements, the timestamps aren't spec'd but they generally match the behavior of the digitize function timestamps, so longer buffers could see jumps like that.

Quote
The reason for this discrepancy, incidentally, is that the 7510 uses different clocks for timestamps and digitized readings that sync up every so often.  In actuality, the digitized readings are probably much closer together than what the timestamps say, it's the timestamps with the uncertainty, not the readings.
Is there any chance that this will be fixed in 7510? After all then all sense of timestamp is lost.
Honestly, it's not very likely.  There simply aren't enough people that need the kind of timestamp resolution or accuracy you're talking about to justify the change.  We changed the way timestamps are handled in the 6500/6510 to improve accuracy and resolution, but the 7510 is unlikely, at this time, to receive changes to how it handles them. 

Quote
Try this script I'm attaching (same deal, change .txt to .tsp and run on the instrument), it's the same one I described in this message. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg2056225/#msg2056225)  It'll take 100 readings on the 10V DCV range each 1s apart, just to make sure you're not missing anything.  Like I said, I saw <100ns difference between timestamps, you should see somewhere around that.
I ran this script from the device (just fixed BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE on BLOCK_MEASURE for the second block). And I got a constant error of 17.5 μs on each measurement and the peak to peak spread is the peak of 2500 ns.

Data in the attachment.
Wait, is this buffer from the 7510 too? BLOCK_MEASURE is depreciated in the DMM6500/DAQ6510 in favor of BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE.  I'm assuming everything in this thread is about the 6500/6510 unless you tell me otherwise and the 7510 behaves differently enough that I need to know which one you're using if you want good answers, also so that I can properly replicate and log issues. 

That said, I could replicate your graph with the 7510 and that amount of timestamp drift is surprising to me and the firmware engineers.  I've logged an issue to look into this and see what's happening.  From the script I gave you, there's a couple places that could cause the delay offset (which is not present in the 6500) and jitter (which is much less in the 6500) worth looking at.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on January 24, 2019, 06:13:02 am
Honestly, it's not very likely.  There simply aren't enough people that need the kind of timestamp resolution or accuracy you're talking about to justify the change.  We changed the way timestamps are handled in the 6500/6510 to improve accuracy and resolution, but the 7510 is unlikely, at this time, to receive changes to how it handles them.
Very sad. I thought a higher grade device deserves greater precision in the first place.

Quote
Wait, is this buffer from the 7510 too? BLOCK_MEASURE is depreciated in the DMM6500/DAQ6510 in favor of BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE.  I'm assuming everything in this thread is about the 6500/6510 unless you tell me otherwise and the 7510 behaves differently enough that I need to know which one you're using if you want good answers, also so that I can properly replicate and log issues. 

That said, I could replicate your graph with the 7510 and that amount of timestamp drift is surprising to me and the firmware engineers.  I've logged an issue to look into this and see what's happening.

Yes, I'm talking about the 7510. I understand that there is a separate topic for the bugs 7510. But I'm not sure that these are bugs. By this, I can write here? And I will attribute that it is about 7510.

Is there a more accurate script that takes into account the features of the 7510?

Quote
From the script I gave you, there's a couple places that could cause the delay offset (which is not present in the 6500) and jitter (which is much less in the 6500) worth looking at.
If possible, tell us more about it. I want to understand my device by myself. So that I can write good scripts without distracting you from work.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on January 30, 2019, 08:15:31 pm
Brad O can I ask you a couple more questions about 7510?

1. DataSheet promises 140,000 measurements per second via LAN (measurement + time). So far I was able to get a maximum of 20,000. What can I configure to get the reading speed stated in the datasheet? Binary mode is on.

2. How can you remotely know if the warm_up period has passed or not? Is there any flag or status for this?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on January 31, 2019, 09:59:38 pm
I received my DMM6500 two days ago and since then I was playing with it and reading the reference manual. I'm very pleased with this -my first- bench multimeter. It's very versatile and very flexible with the scripting capabilities and extensive settings (probably pros are used to it but that's very impressive for me, who only used hand-held DMMs so far).

I hit several bugs while playing with it (yes, novice users are the best beta testers). I was able to crash it multiple times usually while playing with the graphing options. Graphing is nice and being able to graph the buffer extra values is a nice touch. One glitch is that even if you plot the extra values in the buffer, the stats panel in the graph window still shows the stats of the main readings in the buffer. This becomes confusing especially when you graph both the main and the extra values of the same buffer in the same plot.

One missing feature is the ability to display the reference and input voltages while taking the "DC voltage ratio" measurements: you can only display the ratio. You can see the input voltage by setting the secondary panel to DC voltage, but the reference voltage at the sense port can not be displayed in realtime anywhere on the screen (Input voltage is also stored in the "extra value" column, so can be seen in the table view). I think Keysight 34465A can display both voltages in realtime and this would be a nice addition for a future DMM6500 firmware. I don't think there is a hardware limitation for this useful feature, they just need to design the UI for it IMHO.

I wanted to check and compare the noise levels of two voltage references I built, one with LM399 and one with REF 102. So I took this as a challenge to learn the scripting capabilities of the DMM and implemented a simple script which computes the sense voltage from the ratio and the input voltage from the extra value field of the buffer and display it on the user screen. I also wanted to be able to graph the two channels. After spending couple of hours with the reference manual, I was able to kinda implement this missing feature. At the end, as a bonus, through a small hack I was able to upgrade the main display resolution to 8.5 digits! (sorta, see the images)  :-/O

Now that I have two voltages measured at the same time, I think I should be able to extract the noise of the DMM's internal voltage reference by cross-correlating the two channel values, and thus be able to characterize the noise of the two DUIs much better. But that's another project.

So far very happy with the device.

- Attachments and other options
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on January 31, 2019, 11:52:15 pm
Wow, that are nice hacks.  :-+
At first I had also some bluescreens, but that hasn't happened since.
Yes, the gui can be improved in some areas. Especially for reference measurements, the reference voltage is very small and hidden next to the REL button on the adjustment screen. This belongs on the statistics screen.

Do you want to share your scripts, please? I'm very interested!

Another question, did you get a detailed calibration report, as it should be for such an instrument?

And welcome to the forum.  :)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: TiN on February 01, 2019, 04:57:30 am
After spending couple of hours with the reference manual, I was able to kinda implement this missing feature. At the end, as a bonus, through a small hack I was able to upgrade the main display resolution to 8.5 digits! (sorta, see the images)  :-/O


Welcome, cozdas. Nice hanks, but that's 7.5 digits  ^-^.
Interesting to see more, keep up good work.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Evodad on February 01, 2019, 06:50:02 am
Hi all !

New to this forum and also a new owner to a DMM6500.

I had a really old Keithley for many years until it broke and I have missed it since. My Flukes does not really match up.
That is the reason I bought this DMM6500 after finding this thread. As a general DMM I really like this Instrument but I find
the added Graphical presentation lacking in how things are presented and the menues.

Especially in the Digitizing mode, why is there no SET (Settings Tab) among the Graph Tabs ? You have to go through multiple
steps to set sample rate and and the number of samples ? The Buffer settings could be there as well  >:D

Yes, a couple of Blue Screens and some Bugs here and there, but it's liveable, though, the biggest design flaw is the FAN !
(Personal opinion  ;))

Why should you need a Fan? This is a professional working tool, having to listen to a Fan (all day) is fatiguing.
Would it be possible to have a low speed mode or even being able to turn it of, maybe with some penalties is performance?

Yes, turning mostly to Brad O here.

Kind regards, P
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on February 01, 2019, 07:03:47 am
Nice hanks, but that's 7.5 digits  ^-^.


 I was surprised when I first saw the calibration data. Many values contain eight digits. I asked Brad - how is this possible?! Brad said: yes, the multimeter can return such values, but not on the display.
 It is necessary to find out - is there any sense in these numbers.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on February 01, 2019, 07:41:57 am
The digits beyond about 7 digits have no real value. The noise and INL error of the DMM is likely larger than that. From some point it's also just a floating point number scaling a limited resolution value. So there will be some steps no to allow all possible values in between. 

There is a little value to the 7 th digit in that one can see drift direction a little earlier and does not get extra rounding or quantization error. So it's OK for the computer to use those extra digit(s), but when writing things down by hand it's usually not worth it.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on February 01, 2019, 09:05:51 am
Do you want to share your scripts, please? I'm very interested!
Another question, did you get a detailed calibration report, as it should be for such an instrument?
And welcome to the forum.  :)
I can share the script, sure. But before exposing my trick to display 7+ digits I want to make sure that spying( :) ) Keithley guys won't have this "feature" fixed in the new firmwares ;)

I received a "Traceable calibration certificate" with a certificate no but I don't know where to find the detailed report.

I was surprised when I first saw the calibration data. .... the multimeter can return such values, but not on the display.
How did you access the cal data?

Nice hanks, but that's 7.5 digits  ^-^.
You are right that it doesn't show 8.5 digits, but I can see 8 digits in the big display mode (first digit can be 9). Let's call it 8.0 digits. Deal? :P

Yes, a couple of Blue Screens and some Bugs here and there, but it's liveable, though, the biggest design flaw is the FAN !
(Personal opinion  ;))
Totally agree. I'm very sensitive to noise and thus I replaced the fans of my NAS, my lab power supply and while building my beefy 32-core dual xeon system I made sure the fans are super silent. This device is the biggest noise maker in the entire house now. I'm tempted to replace that fan with a silent Noctua fan but probably won't touch it while it's newly calibrated.

The digits beyond about 7 digits have no real value. The noise and INL error of the DMM is likely larger than that. From some point it's also just a floating point number scaling a limited resolution value. So there will be some steps no to allow all possible values in between. 
There is a little value to the 7 th digit in that one can see drift direction a little earlier and does not get extra rounding or quantization error. So it's OK for the computer to use those extra digit(s), but when writing things down by hand it's usually not worth it.

I'm pretty sure that the internal representation is 64-bit floating point: I'm seeing value differences that require at least 42 bit mantissa, way smaller than the 32-bit float's 23-bit mantissa can provide. As you said that extra resolution won't provide extra accuracy or even precision for sure. But I think there is a use for that in some specific scenarios like the one I'm working on. I'm not very sure about how the sense and input terminals are actually digitized internally for the volt ratio, but looking at the graph I can definitely see some concurrent jumps in both channels, which are probably from the DMMs internal noise, and I see jumps only on a single channel, which suggests that coming from the DUT. So with some digital signal processing I can hopefully extract some stats for those 3 devices separately. We'll see.

With large NPLC and filtering values I can get a very stable 7th digit. Although a single ADC output won't have a useful info in the 7th digit, with averaging I think 7th digit is usable for some limited cases. I can see the direction of the change as you suggested in the 8th digit (probably showing the direction of the low freq noise).

I also realized another small bug: when you export a buffer to CSV, the "extra" channel isn't written with enough digits. Main reading values contain full 64bit float though. (see the images)
Code: [Select]
9.999981650865,Volt DC,...,6.984300,Volt DC,
9.999980233491,Volt DC,...,6.984298,Volt DC,
9.999979931922,Volt DC,...,6.984298,Volt DC,
As a workaround I can change my script to write the second voltage to a separate buffer instead of storing in the extra channel of the same buffer but It'd be waste of space unnecessarily.


And thanks for the warm welcome messages :)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 01, 2019, 11:04:05 am
Hi Evodad,

welcome to the forum too.  :)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 01, 2019, 12:02:24 pm
I can share the script, sure. But before exposing my trick to display 7+ digits I want to make sure that spying( :) ) Keithley guys won't have this "feature" fixed in the new firmwares ;)
Then please PM it to me. Please also the trick to display 2nd trace.  :)
Maybe you're importing the data by simulating a scanner channel?

Quote
I received a "Traceable calibration certificate" with a certificate no but I don't know where to find the detailed report.
Then you didn't got it. Look at MikeP's earlyer Post, he published his.

Quote
I'm not very sure about how the sense and input terminals are actually digitized internally for the volt ratio, but looking at the graph I can definitely see some concurrent jumps in both channels, which are probably from the DMMs internal noise, and I see jumps only on a single channel, which suggests that coming from the DUT. So with some digital signal processing I can hopefully extract some stats for those 3 devices separately. We'll see.
That's my idea too. Some of my refs sometimes tend to go crazy. And i don't know, is it the dmm. If they do it the same time, I'm one step further. And yes, there is popcorn noise...

Quote
With large NPLC and filtering values I can get a very stable 7th digit. Although a single ADC output won't have a useful info in the 7th digit, with averaging I think 7th digit is usable for some limited cases.
I use the 7th digit from cvs-protocoll, to build my traces with Libreoffice.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on February 01, 2019, 12:23:31 pm
Well multiple people asked for the script already so I decided to release it. It's nothing fancy actually; just read the ratio buffer and compute the "input" voltage from "ratio" and "reference" values then place them in another buffer(s). Extra digits were just side effect. Just promise me that if Keithley fixes the "feature" then help me push back :D

Script is here: https://github.com/cozdas/DMM6500/

If you are not familiar with the TestScriptBuilder, you can just grab the cozDualVolt.tsp file and place it in a USB stick. You should be able to run it on the DMM.

Enjoy.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 01, 2019, 12:30:46 pm
Ok, I see you. You got a double thanks. ;)
Btw, nice Coyote  ;)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on February 01, 2019, 10:58:27 pm
Fun with 10k precision resistor, 4-write relative measurement in relative mode. Not very useful but hey! :P

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 01, 2019, 11:59:18 pm
You can right click virtual front panel for screen only  :)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on February 02, 2019, 12:11:28 am
I tried to run the virtual panel on the phone. It turned out not very well: (
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: jancumps on February 02, 2019, 01:05:23 am
Hey @analogRF I don’t know if you’ve bought a 6500 yet, but I put together that Probe hold script for you and anyone else (@MikeP).  Also see the end for news on firmware.

It uses the App interface of the DMM so it behaves a little differently from a normal script.  I put together some info below.

INSTRUCTIONS:
1.   Download the attached file and change the .txt ending to .tspa
2.   Make sure your DMM’s command set is set to TSP in MENU > Settings
3.   Put the script on a USB drive and insert into the DMM
4.   Press the APPS key and go to the USB tab
5.   You can either run the script here, or save it to local memory first (it will be added to local memory automatically)
6.   Click Run

....
I like this script. When working in DCV mode, it helps to put the meter input impedance to 10 MOhm. In high impedance mode the probes can float above the threshold voltage by just laying on the table or being unconnected, in your hand, and add unwanted entries in the hold table when moving from testpoint to testpoint.

One thing I noticed is that the threshold label says that anything above it  is captured, but if you enter 2 V, also -2.5 V is captured. Not an issue, but it seems contrary to what's labeled.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 02, 2019, 01:28:19 am
BradO tolds me, that they are developing an interactive editor with syntax highlighting-completion and debugging possibilities for online tsp-scripting.
That's good news to comfortable develop such things for own needs.  :-DMM
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on February 02, 2019, 08:24:27 am

This device is the biggest noise maker in the entire house now. I'm tempted to replace that fan with a silent Noctua fan but probably won't touch it while it's newly calibrated.


Try to block the holes in the case. You will immediately see the results on the display.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on February 02, 2019, 09:08:48 am
Brad Oh, I will continue to ask about the 7510?

3. I managed to get the error of measuring time beyond 20ns during the first 2s :(  It seems to me that these outliers occur at random times and are not related to the first 2s.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: jancumps on February 02, 2019, 09:26:34 am
Quote
I will continue to ask about the 7510
Can you open a 7510 thread? These posts about another instrument in they DMM6500 and DAQ6510 thread are confusing.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on February 03, 2019, 09:58:50 pm
Can you open a 7510 thread? These posts about another instrument in they DMM6500 and DAQ6510 thread are confusing.
You can do a lot of thread. But Brad O is one. And it seems to me that the chance to get an answer is higher if you write in one topic. Plus the software control of these two devices is very similar. If possible, I would like to stay in this thread.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: TiN on February 04, 2019, 12:28:40 am
Something tells me that Brad O will be happy to avoid confusion and will chime in separate DMM7510 thread, instead of trying to understand each time if question here about DMM6500/6510 or different instrument...
And two devices while designed around same idea, have quite different platform and indeed different firmwares.
Recommend you to start another thread, please.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on February 04, 2019, 01:35:49 am
Recommend you to start another thread, please.
Ok.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on February 04, 2019, 02:31:30 pm
I was playing with the dual volt idea, not that it'd be very useful but as a toy project to learn DMM6500's programming capabilities and the feature set. It was also a good opportunity to learn the Lua language.

By reverse engineering the example scripts and the applications that Tektronix and Brad O provided (i.e. hold probe), I was able to convert my script to an interactive application to  eliminate most of the limitations the system puts while a script is running. Unfortunately all of these apps are using an undocumented (AFAIK) API which looks slightly buggy (that's probably why it's not released and documented yet). The main issue is that after the application is terminated the swipe screen I create stays on the screen as an orphan resource and crashes the DMM when displayed. Brad O's hold probe script suffers from the same issue as well. I can safely delete the other swipe pages but not the one I created. weird.

Another problem is that the derived voltage values are not computed if the custom swipe screen is not visible, this is probably because the window message pump is not working if the window is hidden. I could not find a way to fix this. When/if the API is released, I can revisit this script. Currently the app will catch up the missed values as soon as the dual voltage swipe screen is displayed though.

If anyone wants to play with it here it is: https://github.com/cozdas/DMM6500/tree/master/cozDualVolt . Just grab the cozDualVolt.tspa and put in a USB stick. You can access it in the Apps screen. As I said, after the application is terminated, DMM GUI becomes unstable so it'd be a good idea to reboot.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 04, 2019, 10:32:20 pm
@cozdas
That's perfect, for what you can do. Thanks a lot.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 05, 2019, 04:05:12 am
Timeline (x-achsis) is wrong. (normal use)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on February 05, 2019, 05:02:43 am
Why should you need a Fan? This is a professional working tool, having to listen to a Fan (all day) is fatiguing.
Would it be possible to have a low speed mode or even being able to turn it of, maybe with some penalties is performance?

Yes, turning mostly to Brad O here.
Bit of a simple answer really, but the fan is needed to manage the heat of the internal components.  The higher performing digital and analog circuits used in our modern DMMs generate more heat that needs to be managed compared to, say, a model 2000.  A low speed mode is not likely (we looked into it), that would alter the box enough that it would require different specs, so the box would need two independent specifications for every function.

BUT, if it really bothers you, you can open the box and unplug it.  As far as tear downs go, the DMM6500/DAQ6510 is pretty easy.  Of course, opening the box voids your warranty and these directions I'm about to give should not be construed as a recommendation to open up your box and disable the fan. 
The easiest way would be to remove the top panel, then the front display, which can slide out, but be careful of the terminal wire connections.  If you then look into the box, underneath the analog board and behind the transformers, you'll see the 3 wires that make up the fan cable coming out of a little daughter board.  Compare to the cable coming out of the fan on the left to be sure you have the right plug.  You can remove that cable, put everything back together, and the box will function normally (throwing a fan error on startup that can be ignored).  The box in this setup (obviously) may not meet specs, particularly on higher ranges and any digitize mode.  To plug the fan back in, you will likely need to remove the analog board, which also isn't too difficult, just more work.  You may find it easier to remove the analog board when unplugging the fan too if you're having difficulty finding or unplugging the fan cable.

@cozdas and others
A note on the digits, ALL digits past what is guaranteed by the specs have no value.  Even if they look reasonable, they are only eyecandy and may be a different value in an hour/day/month.  The way the instrument is calibrated and its design error budget / uncertainties mean you shouldn't use anything past what the specs say if you want to consider them valid.  If we secretly designed an 8.5 digit meter into a 6.5 digit meter, you can be sure we would be charging an 8.5 meter price ;)

I can share the script, sure. But before exposing my trick to display 7+ digits I want to make sure that spying( :) ) Keithley guys won't have this "feature" fixed in the new firmwares ;)
Lol, don't worry, that's an intended feature.  The primary reason you would use a writable buffer is to plot and display calculated or imported (from another instrument) data that could be any number of digits.  This also means that, while writable buffers still specify their resolution with half digit notation, they allow full scale digits in each place since a calculated value could be anything.  So a buffer.DIGITS_8_5 writable buffer is really 9 digits.

You can right click virtual front panel for screen only  :)
There was actually an argument between a couple engineers debating whether right-clicking would be useful to people.  Glad you like it! ;D

Hey @analogRF I don’t know if you’ve bought a 6500 yet, but I put together that Probe hold script for you and anyone else (@MikeP).  Also see the end for news on firmware.

It uses the App interface of the DMM so it behaves a little differently from a normal script.  I put together some info below.

INSTRUCTIONS:
1.   Download the attached file and change the .txt ending to .tspa
2.   Make sure your DMM’s command set is set to TSP in MENU > Settings
3.   Put the script on a USB drive and insert into the DMM
4.   Press the APPS key and go to the USB tab
5.   You can either run the script here, or save it to local memory first (it will be added to local memory automatically)
6.   Click Run

....
I like this script. When working in DCV mode, it helps to put the meter input impedance to 10 MOhm. In high impedance mode the probes can float above the threshold voltage by just laying on the table or being unconnected, in your hand, and add unwanted entries in the hold table when moving from testpoint to testpoint.

One thing I noticed is that the threshold label says that anything above it  is captured, but if you enter 2 V, also -2.5 V is captured. Not an issue, but it seems contrary to what's labeled.
Ah yes, it was always my intention for that threshold to be symmetric about 0, so I can update the labeling.  I'm planning to write another version that is more stable, but it requires features that aren't in the currently available firmware.

Quote
I will continue to ask about the 7510
Can you open a 7510 thread? These posts about another instrument in they DMM6500 and DAQ6510 thread are confusing.
Yes please!  MegaVolt let me know what that other thread is so I can subscribe to it (I just checked and didn't see it).  7510 questions also take a bit more time to answer since some of the design engineers are on different projects now so I have to hunt them down more and they may have to look up design documents.  The DMM6500/DAQ6510 engineers are all still together.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on February 05, 2019, 05:12:13 am
I was playing with the dual volt idea, not that it'd be very useful but as a toy project to learn DMM6500's programming capabilities and the feature set. It was also a good opportunity to learn the Lua language.

By reverse engineering the example scripts and the applications that Tektronix and Brad O provided (i.e. hold probe), I was able to convert my script to an interactive application to  eliminate most of the limitations the system puts while a script is running. Unfortunately all of these apps are using an undocumented (AFAIK) API which looks slightly buggy (that's probably why it's not released and documented yet). The main issue is that after the application is terminated the swipe screen I create stays on the screen as an orphan resource and crashes the DMM when displayed. Brad O's hold probe script suffers from the same issue as well. I can safely delete the other swipe pages but not the one I created. weird.

Another problem is that the derived voltage values are not computed if the custom swipe screen is not visible, this is probably because the window message pump is not working if the window is hidden. I could not find a way to fix this. When/if the API is released, I can revisit this script. Currently the app will catch up the missed values as soon as the dual voltage swipe screen is displayed though.

If anyone wants to play with it here it is: https://github.com/cozdas/DMM6500/tree/master/cozDualVolt . Just grab the cozDualVolt.tspa and put in a USB stick. You can access it in the Apps screen. As I said, after the application is terminated, DMM GUI becomes unstable so it'd be a good idea to reboot.
Very cool!  If you're interested, send me a PM and we can talk about giving you a preliminary copy of the API for you to play around with so you can see what the arguments for these commands actually are.  You are correct in that it's not publicly documented because it still has bugs in it.

The reason why the values stop being computed if you swipe away from the created screen is that your timer object exists on that swipe screen, when you swipe away, all objects on the screen are disabled.  The development firmware allows you to place timers at display.ROOT (the global display object space) so the readings would always be calculated. 

Timeline (x-achsis) is wrong. (normal use)

Wait, what's wrong with the x-axis?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on February 05, 2019, 05:29:49 am
I would not recommend disconnecting or slowing down the fan. Not so much because of possibly changed specs, but because of a possible change in the calibration. So it's not just warranty void but also calibration void.

A changing air flow over analog parts could cause slight shift in analog properties - so a temperature regulated fan is also not a good option. It would be if the analog part would be fully encapsulated, like in some RF instruments, so that there is no direct air flow over sensitive parts.

There might be a market for a fan off version - that only enables the fan when really hot. One can not expect accurate readings at high temperature anyway. This may be just a different calibration.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on February 05, 2019, 06:12:33 am
MegaVolt let me know what that other thread is so I can subscribe to it (I just checked and didn't see it).
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/all-about-keithley-dmm7510-bugs-and-features-recipes-advice-notes/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/all-about-keithley-dmm7510-bugs-and-features-recipes-advice-notes/)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 05, 2019, 07:09:53 am
Timeline (x-achsis) is wrong. (normal use)

Wait, what's wrong with the x-axis?
The marks "0d:21" .. "1d:00" .. "1d:04" .. "1d:07" are relative meaningless to me. The methode is 'show all', what it does, the scale is 13.76 ks, the axsismarks are fixed there the whole 2nd day for now. In my opinion the axismarks should be fairly correspond to the cumulative measurement.

Quote
A note on the digits, ALL digits past what is guaranteed by the specs have no value.  Even if they look reasonable, they are only eyecandy and may be a different value in an hour/day/month.  The way the instrument is calibrated and its design error budget / uncertainties mean you shouldn't use anything past what the specs say if you want to consider them valid.  If we secretly designed an 8.5 digit meter into a 6.5 digit meter, you can be sure we would be charging an 8.5 meter price ;)

That's right. But as you can see here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg2166871/#msg2166871), the 1st 'crazy'-picture still shows me roughly what's happening on the 7th digit of the measurement. Irrespective of whether the inaccuracy uncertainty comes from the DMM or DUT, it is valuable for me to see this.  :)

Thanks
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on February 05, 2019, 07:57:52 am
Using  1d:04 and so one for indicating days and hours is at least unusual. Unless really long time of many days, I would prefer using just hours even of the numbers go beyond 100.

The tick spacing is odd: the difference is between 3 and 4 hours - so some odd rounding going one, where it should not be. This is a little like the other ticks. So the problem is not specific to the x-axis or long times - it's more like another example of the known problem with the scaling.

The ticks should be a exact, round numbers, like every 1 / 2 / 5 / ... mV  or 1 / 3 / 6 / 12 hours apart and the graphics adjusted to this. Currently it looks like it is the other way around with exactly a given number of ticks and than odd rounded numbers. Under extreme cases this leads to same numbers on several or even all tics  :palm:. These extreme zoom cases are only the ones where the error gets most obvious.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on February 06, 2019, 05:51:53 pm
You can remove that cable, put everything back together, and the box will function normally (throwing a fan error on startup that can be ignored).  The box in this setup (obviously) may not meet specs, particularly on higher ranges and any digitize mode.

If fanless operation only effects the accuracy and does have a permanent effect, then can you please, pretty please add an option to the firmware to turn it off? I'm sure that your internal team will be worried about the unit being out of spec  in this mode but this feature can be hidden (reached only via the TSP interface for example), unit can warn you about the accuracy loss with a flashing red screen that requires triple "I understand" clicks, there may be a always visible small note in the corner of the screen and the device can return to the normal operation on each restart. But at least for some of us the accurate readings is not a requirement all the time. While developing an application for it, for example, I need to keep the device on mostly doing nothing but occasionally running my screen script code while I need to endure the constant sound coming from it all the time.

...ALL digits past what is guaranteed by the specs have no value.  Even if they look reasonable, they are only eyecandy and may be a different value in an hour/day/month.
From the uncertainty point of view, you are totally right. But I respectfully disagree with you on the "extra digits being just eyecandy". Accuracy/uncertainty is not the whole picture. If you have two devices you need to evaluate the noise of and DUT1 moves the 7th digit only between 4 and 6 while DUT2 moves the same digit between 2 and 9 most of the time and if this behavior is "repeatable" with the same DMM even better "reproducable" with a second DMM, then this is a useful and valid "data" even "information". Note that they'll look totally identical In 6.5 digit mode.

Accuracy is only one of the aspects of the measurement. Most of the time the devices behave well above their guaranteed specs which are (and need to be) very conservative. Also the "precision" of the devices are usually much better than their "accuracy". Of course I'm not claiming that 7th digit of a 6.5 digit DMM is as useful as the same digit of a 7.5 digit DMM. But as long as you are aware of the differences between accuracy, precision, resolution, trueness, bias, repeatability, reproducability, etc, there is some information in those digits that you can safely extract even while watching the display. A very safe one-size-fits-all, rule of thumb approach is "ignore the digits beyond what the accuracy spec says" of course. There is nothing wrong with it but it's somehow over-pessimistic for "some" scenarios.

Thanks again for monitoring this topic and answering all the questions in detail, appreciated.  :-+
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 07, 2019, 03:13:16 am
Using  1d:04 and so one for indicating days and hours is at least unusual. Unless really long time of many days, I would prefer using just hours even of the numbers go beyond 100.
That belongs to what someone is looking for. In my case i'm looking for when some of my refs goes crazy, as I have already described here. And they do it very sporadically over the time. Are there only some? Or all? All the same time? Is it with my precise resistors too? And finaly, is it the dmm or dut or environmental influences?

All this makes long-term measurements really necessary. Especially since this special measuring device is predestined for this purpose.

It may be that measuring compensates itself with time through routine, which I, as a lone fighter and autodidact, must first work out myself. And frankly, i see a lot more long-term measurements here in metrology ...  ;)

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on February 07, 2019, 03:40:51 am
The 6500 is definitely a good instrument to do long time measurements, like over several days. It is just that the way the times are printed is unusual. It's more like a personal taste of one prefers 245 hours or 10 days and 5 hours.  It if there are daily cycles the notation with days may indeed be a little more practical.

The main point is that the scaling of the axis in the graph mode needs some attention / updates. It looks like this effects both the x and y axis and very likely would also effect resistor readings.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 07, 2019, 03:48:14 am
The 6500 is definitely a good instrument to do long time measurements, like over several days. It is just that the way the times are printed is unusual. It's more like a personal taste of one prefers 245 hours or 10 days and 5 hours.  It if there are daily cycles the notation with days may indeed be a little more practical.

The main point is that the scaling of the axis in the graph mode needs some attention / updates. It looks like this effects both the x and y axis and very likely would also effect resistor readings.

Absolutely yes.
I think I misunderstood something that would be unusual in itself for such long-term measurements. Sorry.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 09, 2019, 12:44:05 pm
I measured a pure brandnew Vishay 0,0 ppm/°C VHP101 10k Resistor (Digi-Key (https://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/vishay-foil-resistors-division-of-vishay-precision-group/Y407810K0000V9L/804-1059-ND/4233065)), relative, 4-wire, after let it settle down fore more than one hour. Ambient room-temp was 21.1°C.

I opened the windows for a while, and the temp goes down to 19.2°C, closed them again, and temp changes back to 20.6°C.

If Vishay is right (0,0 ppm/°C), this must be the pure tempco of the dmm6500.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: TiN on February 09, 2019, 01:17:17 pm
Quote
If Vishay is right (0,0 ppm/°C)
Nope, you falled for their specmanship like many others. Those resistors are not zero TCR, but they are pretty good.
To stay on topic, you need larger themperature sweep to better measure TCRs and repeat test multiple times to be sure, as possible hysteresis might bias your data.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 09, 2019, 02:08:58 pm
Quote
If Vishay is right (0,0 ppm/°C)
Nope, you falled for their specmanship like many others. Those resistors are not zero TCR, but they are pretty good.
To stay on topic, you need larger themperature sweep to better measure TCRs and repeat test multiple times to be sure, as possible hysteresis might bias your data.

Right.
That's why i sayd "if", with an implicite smile.  ;)

But thanks.  :)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on February 09, 2019, 04:24:08 pm
I'm having trouble with two settings in DMM6500:

1) Although the manual implies that in the voltage ratio function the sense input range can be adjusted, I could not find any way to change it other than the 10V range it default to. Has anyone figured out if this is possible and how?

Here an excerpt from the manual
Quote
The SENSE terminals are used as the reference voltage (VS). The SENSE terminals can measure DC volts in 100 mV, 1 V, and 10 V ranges.

The INPUT terminals provide the voltage (Vi) to be compared against the reference voltage. They can measure DC volts in 100 mV, 1 V, 10 V, 100 V, and 1000 V ranges.

2) The graph axis system indeed needs some love. Besides the non-round division values (e.g. 11.2mv/div) I'm also having trouble plotting two traces with the same scale but different offsets. I want to see two traces one with 10V mean other with 7V mean be plotted centered on the same grid with 10mv/div so that I can compare how they change in time. It feels like if you set the Y-Axis scale method to "OFF" you should be able to change the "scale" and "minimum position" values in the in Graph/Scale tab because those fields change into buttons so that you can click and enter numbers. But once you enter the numbers for the first trace and switch to the other trace to set its values, the buttons are replaced with read-only text fields and you can't get the buttons back until you change the Y-Axis method to something else and back to OFF again. Currently the value you entered for the first trace is applied to the all other traces. I hope in the upcoming firmwares it'd be possible to set the scaling and offsetting values of each trace manually.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 09, 2019, 08:14:40 pm
cozdas

2) It's frustrating difficult to get the knobs to set the scales for one trace. Never attempted it for a second trace. This behavior of the gui is also not more as a big building site in my opinion.

Are there no TSP-commands to set that?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on February 10, 2019, 11:49:11 pm
I'm also having trouble plotting two traces with the same scale but different offsets. I want to see two traces one with 10V mean other with 7V mean be plotted centered on the same grid with 10mv/div so that I can compare how they change in time.
You can try to take away the constant component. Those. from the first signal subtract 10. From the second 7. As a result, both signals will be near zero.

To take away, you can use scripts or math access in the settings.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on February 11, 2019, 01:49:27 pm
You can try to take away the constant component. Those. from the first signal subtract 10. From the second 7. As a result, both signals will be near zero. To take away, you can use scripts or math access in the settings.

That's eventually what I did but I did that on my PC on the CSV exported data. Because you can't apply math in DMM6500 to the already collected data. There are workarounds, so it's not a show stopper of course but it'd be nice to have a better behaving and controllable graphing system.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on February 11, 2019, 07:16:31 pm
That's eventually what I did but I did that on my PC on the CSV exported data. Because you can't apply math in DMM6500 to the already collected data. There are workarounds, so it's not a show stopper of course but it'd be nice to have a better behaving and controllable graphing system.
You can apply math during data collection. Or use the lua language which supports the device. Documentation for this is very little: (
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on February 14, 2019, 08:48:54 am
You can remove that cable, put everything back together, and the box will function normally (throwing a fan error on startup that can be ignored).  The box in this setup (obviously) may not meet specs, particularly on higher ranges and any digitize mode.

If fanless operation only effects the accuracy and does have a permanent effect, then can you please, pretty please add an option to the firmware to turn it off? I'm sure that your internal team will be worried about the unit being out of spec  in this mode but this feature can be hidden (reached only via the TSP interface for example), unit can warn you about the accuracy loss with a flashing red screen that requires triple "I understand" clicks, there may be a always visible small note in the corner of the screen and the device can return to the normal operation on each restart. But at least for some of us the accurate readings is not a requirement all the time. While developing an application for it, for example, I need to keep the device on mostly doing nothing but occasionally running my screen script code while I need to endure the constant sound coming from it all the time.
Unfortunately that's not possible with the current design.  Firmware can tell the fan to be on High or Low (It's on Low all the time right now), but there isn't any method that would allow the fan to be turned off completely, it would require, I'm told, a significant amount of work.  Believe me, we know people don't like fans, and we have these instruments on our desks all day too (you should hear the fan required for the original 4200!).  The fan was actually added pretty late in development, the team thought the DMM wouldn't need it at first, but when it wasn't meeting specs a fan had to be added. 

Another, less invasive but maybe more risky method would be to stick a paper clip or something in the fan port and jam it.  The fan is currently operating just above its stall speed so it probably would take quite some time to burn up, if at all.  More likely is the fan would just have reduced life (the unit itself would be fine, only the fan would have a reduced life).

I'm having trouble with two settings in DMM6500:

1) Although the manual implies that in the voltage ratio function the sense input range can be adjusted, I could not find any way to change it other than the 10V range it default to. Has anyone figured out if this is possible and how?

Here an excerpt from the manual
Quote
The SENSE terminals are used as the reference voltage (VS). The SENSE terminals can measure DC volts in 100 mV, 1 V, and 10 V ranges.

The INPUT terminals provide the voltage (Vi) to be compared against the reference voltage. They can measure DC volts in 100 mV, 1 V, 10 V, 100 V, and 1000 V ranges.
Ahh, you've found another manual error.  You cannot change the 65xx sense range, it's always 10V.  That section was copied from the DMM7510 manual which does have multiple sense ranges.  That's been fixed for the next manual update.

2) The graph axis system indeed needs some love. Besides the non-round division values (e.g. 11.2mv/div) I'm also having trouble plotting two traces with the same scale but different offsets. I want to see two traces one with 10V mean other with 7V mean be plotted centered on the same grid with 10mv/div so that I can compare how they change in time. It feels like if you set the Y-Axis scale method to "OFF" you should be able to change the "scale" and "minimum position" values in the in Graph/Scale tab because those fields change into buttons so that you can click and enter numbers. But once you enter the numbers for the first trace and switch to the other trace to set its values, the buttons are replaced with read-only text fields and you can't get the buttons back until you change the Y-Axis method to something else and back to OFF again. Currently the value you entered for the first trace is applied to the all other traces. I hope in the upcoming firmwares it'd be possible to set the scaling and offsetting values of each trace manually.
Huh, the buttons disappearing is definitely a bug (fixed in the dev firmware), but the fact that each buffer copies the others scale settings might be intended...  I gather that's not the behavior you want or expect though, I would think each buffer's scale should be independent too.  I put in bug report on that.  You can indeed manipulate the graph in much more detail with TSP commands (and it won't copy settings between buffers, so that probably is a bug).  The graph commands are part of the display API though so they're not publicly documented as of yet.  As a workaround, you can use the touch screen to edit each graph's scale independently, but when you switch buffers it will still copy the settings of the last buffer you were on.

Finally, another quick firmware release went out, 1.0.04.  I don't think it addresses anything that's been mentioned here but the release notes/downloads are at these links:
DMM6500: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes)
DAQ6510: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes)

EDIT: Oh! A little preview feature I think you all will like: The latest dev firmware is much stricter about what values are allowed for the graph divisions.  It now snaps to whole numbers like 4uV/div or 200mV/div rather than things like 2.448uV/div or 406.3mV/div.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 14, 2019, 03:29:30 pm
Finally, another quick firmware release went out, 1.0.04.  I don't think it addresses anything that's been mentioned here but the release notes/downloads are at these links:
DMM6500: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes)
DAQ6510: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes)
The update isn't accepted by my dmm6500:
Code: [Select]
Error 2310
Not enough memory to perform upgrade
Fresh fat32-stick's, two tested.
All reset, also without main-power for a while.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: jancumps on February 14, 2019, 09:01:48 pm
...
The update isn't accepted by my dmm6500:
Code: [Select]
Error 2310
Not enough memory to perform upgrade
Fresh fat32-stick's, two tested.
All reset, also without main-power for a while.

It installed for me. I upgraded from 1.0.03.c
Can you check via MENU -> Reading Buffers if there aren't big buffers stored on the system?
When you click on the defbuffer1 button, you see all the buffers stored on your meter. You can delete the non-standard ones.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 14, 2019, 09:28:00 pm
...
It installed for me. I upgraded from 1.0.03.c
Can you check via MENU -> Reading Buffers if there aren't big buffers stored on the system?
When you click on the defbuffer1 button, you see all the buffers stored on your meter. You can delete the non-standard ones.
Thanks for your response. Yes, i emptied defbuffer1, deleted all other buffers manually.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: jancumps on February 14, 2019, 10:25:00 pm
Can you open the downloaded firmware file in an archive program like 7-ZIP? It's an archive that contains a mix of other archives and a txt file.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 14, 2019, 10:43:32 pm
Can you open the downloaded firmware file in an archive program like 7-ZIP? It's an archive that contains a mix of other archives and a txt file.
Yes. Zip-File is original, "ki_DMM6500_v1_0_04b.upg" used.
I'm a slightly older IT-consultant and application-programmer since the beginning of the µP-aera in the heterogeneous environment. ;)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: jancumps on February 15, 2019, 12:23:46 am
I have no further hints and tricks then :).
my experience: I used a 1 GB USB, formatted as FAT. The .upg file is the only file on the drive.
I have no autostart or other scripts stored in the meter's persistent storage
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 15, 2019, 12:49:32 am
That's a problem from the dmm itself.

Apparently, in my opinion there is actually no method to put the device into a cleaned ground state. For example, after all the reset methods described, there are still scripts in memory that you have created yourself (small, no autoexec). these are not causing the problem, but they show that the writable memory is actually not completely erased.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on February 15, 2019, 02:50:02 am
Finally, another quick firmware release went out, 1.0.04.  I don't think it addresses anything that's been mentioned here but the release notes/downloads are at these links:
DMM6500: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes)
DAQ6510: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes)
The update isn't accepted by my dmm6500:
Code: [Select]
Error 2310
Not enough memory to perform upgrade
Fresh fat32-stick's, two tested.
All reset, also without main-power for a while.
Did you manually power cycle the box immediately before trying to upgrade?  Manually deleting buffers and variables might not free up enough memory for an upgrade due to fragmentation of the memory space I've talked about before.  Engineering is working on a solution to that for the next firmware, but currently, memory can still become fragmented and limit the maximum size of memory objects.  Restarting the box is the way to completely reset the volatile memory. 

Scripts are stored in non-volatile flash memory so they purposefully persist when you power cycle the instrument.  When the box starts up, they're loaded into volatile memory so you can immediately access them from a remote interface or from the front panel.  How many scripts do you have on your box?  What does it say for available space at the bottom left of MENU > Manage (under Scripts)?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 15, 2019, 03:46:49 am
Finally, another quick firmware release went out, 1.0.04.  I don't think it addresses anything that's been mentioned here but the release notes/downloads are at these links:
DMM6500: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes)
DAQ6510: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes)
The update isn't accepted by my dmm6500:
Code: [Select]
Error 2310
Not enough memory to perform upgrade
Fresh fat32-stick's, two tested.
All reset, also without main-power for a while.
Did you manually power cycle the box immediately before trying to upgrade?  Manually deleting buffers and variables might not free up enough memory for an upgrade due to fragmentation of the memory space I've talked about before.  Engineering is working on a solution to that for the next firmware, but currently, memory can still become fragmented and limit the maximum size of memory objects.  Restarting the box is the way to completely reset the volatile memory. 
That's the first what I do, yes.

Quote
Scripts are stored in non-volatile flash memory so they purposefully persist when you power cycle the instrument.  When the box starts up, they're loaded into volatile memory so you can immediately access them from a remote interface or from the front panel.  How many scripts do you have on your box?  What does it say for available space at the bottom left of MENU > Manage (under Scripts)?
At last only autoexec, without something i wrote in to that.
92% memory free.
Should I delete autoexec?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 15, 2019, 04:18:25 am
Ok. I got it.
Upgrading successed.

In the autoexec are something like this:
Code: [Select]
-- set up reading buffers
KSBuffer = buffer.make(5000000,buffer.STYLE_STANDARD)
KSBuffer.fillmode = buffer.FILL_CONTINUOUS
That was something to much.

But: i deleted and emptied all buffers before upgrading, after powecycling, several times, except buffer defbuffer1, which i only emtied. The memory free shows always 92% as now after upgrading too.

But problem solved after deleting that autoexec.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on February 15, 2019, 05:33:14 am
Ok. I got it.
Upgrading successed.

In the autoexec are something like this:
Code: [Select]
-- set up reading buffers
KSBuffer = buffer.make(5000000,buffer.STYLE_STANDARD)
KSBuffer.fillmode = buffer.FILL_CONTINUOUS
That was something to much.

But: i deleted and emptied all buffers before upgrading, after powecycling, several times, except buffer defbuffer1, which i only emtied. The memory free shows always 92% as now after upgrading too.

But problem solved after deleting that autoexec.
Aha!  So as soon as you start up the instrument, ~75% of your memory was taken up by a reading buffer.  So, yes, deleting that buffer should've freed up all that space again, except for the memory fragmentation.  Like I said, that's something we're working on so now engineering can use your autoexec code as an usage example, thank you!  Glad you were able to upgrade!
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: NANDBlog on February 20, 2019, 09:11:59 pm
I have a DMM6500 now on my desk, a colleague of mine bought one to the company. This is a seriously confusing and disappointing bit of gear. First of all, I had a BSOD on it. And the entire digitize and trigger model is just complicated as hell. With some settings, the screen just start blinking, showing random data. With some other settings it takes measurement every now and then, and it just extrapolates the data between it? Or it shows me that the maximum number of samples can only be 7870020 samples, and then doesnt fill in this number into the input field?
It feels like this was made by robots, who wanted to tick all the boxes, but no real though put into how to use a meter.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Octane on February 20, 2019, 11:46:45 pm
Update the firmware to the latest version and RTFM. This is a very complex and powerful meter. I think they did a great job implementing all those features on a limited UI (screen-size, mainly).

BR,
Michael
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: jancumps on February 21, 2019, 12:19:45 am
My experience is different. I found it easy to get started.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 21, 2019, 12:23:15 am

I have a DMM6500 now on my desk, a colleague of mine bought one to the company. This is a seriously confusing and disappointing bit of gear. First of all, I had a BSOD on it. And the entire digitize and trigger model is just complicated as hell. With some settings, the screen just start blinking, showing random data. With some other settings it takes measurement every now and then, and it just extrapolates the data between it? Or it shows me that the maximum number of samples can only be 7870020 samples, and then doesnt fill in this number into the input field?
It feels like this was made by robots, who wanted to tick all the boxes, but no real though put into how to use a meter.
This dmm has a whole new approach as we know of the previous conventional type with measuring instruments of this type and offers far more possibilities. This gives rise to the problem of the gui developers of casting these into a mould which, on the one hand, must be consistent in terms of its technical possibilities and, on the other hand, must be as conclusive as possible from the user's point of view.

This results in two learning curves
 - for the developers to integrate these comprehensive new possibilities into the matching gui and api,
 - for the user to discover this new concept to make it usable for oneself by sorting out this mistakes despite the imperfect previous named path.

That is the compromise to be entered into, which we have to go together with such kind of measuring instruments.

We remember that gui and programming interfaces of measuring instruments of the previous conventional type have undergone decades of development on both sides.

Another compromise is the much cheaper technical implementation compared to his bigger brother DMM7510.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HighVoltage on February 21, 2019, 02:09:17 am
NANDBlog
I had the DMM7510 before already and therefore the DMM6500 was easy to use for me!
May be you should watch a few videos online to get you started.
After a little learning curve, this instrument is easy to use.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on February 21, 2019, 03:25:11 am
I have a DMM6500 now on my desk, a colleague of mine bought one to the company. This is a seriously confusing and disappointing bit of gear. First of all, I had a BSOD on it. And the entire digitize and trigger model is just complicated as hell. With some settings, the screen just start blinking, showing random data. With some other settings it takes measurement every now and then, and it just extrapolates the data between it? Or it shows me that the maximum number of samples can only be 7870020 samples, and then doesnt fill in this number into the input field?
It feels like this was made by robots, who wanted to tick all the boxes, but no real though put into how to use a meter.
Well, digitizing and the trigger model are the most complicated topics so that's pretty understandable you'd have trouble with them.  I gave a small walkthrough of a basic trigger model back in this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg2056225/#msg2056225), it might help you feel more comfortable with how the blocks work.  There are also a few videos on the digitize functions if you search YouTube.  This video (https://www.tek.com/how/capturing-complex-signals-graphical-sampling-dmm) on the DMM6500's webpage explains most of the common settings while performing a short demo.

If you think there's some explanation lacking in our documentation though I can try explaining it here or put out a new video that goes over it if it's complicated enough.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on February 21, 2019, 06:32:32 pm
EDIT: Oh! A little preview feature I think you all will like: The latest dev firmware is much stricter about what values are allowed for the graph divisions.  It now snaps to whole numbers like 4uV/div or 200mV/div rather than things like 2.448uV/div or 406.3mV/div.

Cool, looking forward to it!

While you're on it, can you also please make sure that the graph Y axis numbers show the informative, distinct digits rather than the common thus non-informative ones? Check the attached images: here the Y range is less than 100uV though in the current implementation Y axis numbers show the 10mv, 1mv and 100uV digits, totally missing the important part. Something like the second image is what I'd expect to see.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 21, 2019, 07:30:14 pm
EDIT: Oh! A little preview feature I think you all will like: The latest dev firmware is much stricter about what values are allowed for the graph divisions.  It now snaps to whole numbers like 4uV/div or 200mV/div rather than things like 2.448uV/div or 406.3mV/div.

Cool, looking forward to it!

While you're on it, can you also please make sure that the graph Y axis numbers show the informative, distinct digits rather than the common thus non-informative ones? Check the attached images: here the Y range is less than 100uV though in the current implementation Y axis numbers show the 10mv, 1mv and 100uV digits, totally missing the important part. Something like the second image is what I'd expect to see.

Right. It has been pointed out for some time that the y-axis is hardly meaningful in this form.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 21, 2019, 07:49:56 pm
A little tip, with many measuring points, the image becomes a little bit clearer (edit: but without peaks) if someone only lets it be displayed as line.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on February 21, 2019, 08:20:14 pm
A little tip, with many measuring points, the image becomes a little bit clearer (edit: but without peaks) if someone only lets it be displayed as line.

While I was preparing an image for the reply, you already edited your message to mention the gotcha with the line mode (missing peaks)  :-+.

I'm guessing that currently the markers are drawn on top of the lines so that when the samples per pixel count is less than one, you get lines connecting the sparse dots. But when the number of samples per pixels is greater than one, I think the averaged line should be drawn on top of the peak showing markers so that you can get more information in a single graph and the "both" mode becomes different than the "marker" mode. Something like this:

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 21, 2019, 11:07:22 pm
cozdas
I wonder how you can get these pictures, which the dmm is hardly capable of without scripting.  ;D
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on February 22, 2019, 08:41:19 am
cozdas
I wonder how you can get these pictures, which the dmm is hardly capable of without scripting.  ;D

Photoshop  ;D
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 22, 2019, 10:03:51 am
cozdas
I wonder how you can get these pictures, which the dmm is hardly capable of without scripting.  ;D

Photoshop  ;D
Yeah, that's what I thought. ;D
Have seen your nice photographs, and your expirience with programming and manipulating grafical filters. :-+
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on February 22, 2019, 10:30:23 am
ps and ot: my R&S RTB2002 is generating such traces in real.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on February 22, 2019, 09:07:05 pm
...With some settings, the screen just start blinking, showing random data. With some other settings it takes measurement every now and then, and it just extrapolates the data between it? ...

I know what you mean, some parts are not really intuitive and there are many rough edges for sure, especially with the graphing part. AFAIK this is their first graphing line after all.

"Group of readings" part is not very well explained in the documents, and I was confused by that part too (user's manual doesn't mention it at all, reference manual has a brief mention). Also probably for handling the large data efficiently on the screen, they seem to have a hierarchical visual representation of the data; when zoomed out, the min, max and averaged values of "many samples" are displayed as a single line. Sometimes this "Level Of Detail" part gets confused and shows a coarser view. This happens very often with the fast digitize setups in my experience but can happen anytime if you play with the axis scale options (See the images). Pinch-zoom is usually enough to unconfuse it :)

Many rough edges, true, but still a very versatile device. I'm hoping that Keithley keeps resources dedicated for fixing the bugs.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: IAmBack on February 23, 2019, 01:34:12 am
FYI, it's birthday of this thread ;)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Neuromodulator on February 28, 2019, 03:57:28 pm
Whats the "proper" way to perform measurements when the trigger is high?
I tried:

trigger.extin.edge = trigger.EDGE_EITHER

trigger.model.setblock(1, trigger.BLOCK_BUFFER_CLEAR, buffer)
trigger.model.setblock(2, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_EXTERNAL, trigger.CLEAR_ENTER)
trigger.model.setblock(3, trigger.BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE, buffer, trigger.COUNT_INFINITE)
trigger.model.setblock(4, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_EXTERNAL, trigger.CLEAR_ENTER)
trigger.model.setblock(5, trigger.BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE, buffer, trigger.COUNT_STOP)

But this could get activated when trigger is low, and I also received a warning in the log stating: "trigger model is not optimized for speed due to multiple blocks waiting on the same event. Less complex trigger models can utilize hardware resources to improve performance. The trigger model requires the use of slower resources and may not achieve published specifications".

Thanks
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on March 06, 2019, 05:32:22 am
Whats the "proper" way to perform measurements when the trigger is high?
I tried:

trigger.extin.edge = trigger.EDGE_EITHER

trigger.model.setblock(1, trigger.BLOCK_BUFFER_CLEAR, buffer)
trigger.model.setblock(2, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_EXTERNAL, trigger.CLEAR_ENTER)
trigger.model.setblock(3, trigger.BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE, buffer, trigger.COUNT_INFINITE)
trigger.model.setblock(4, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_EXTERNAL, trigger.CLEAR_ENTER)
trigger.model.setblock(5, trigger.BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE, buffer, trigger.COUNT_STOP)

But this could get activated when trigger is low, and I also received a warning in the log stating: "trigger model is not optimized for speed due to multiple blocks waiting on the same event. Less complex trigger models can utilize hardware resources to improve performance. The trigger model requires the use of slower resources and may not achieve published specifications".

Thanks
That's the method I would use (or close to it).  The external trigger lines and trigger model were designed with traditional TTL triggering in mind, so the command set around it is geared towards transitions rather than states.  For state based triggering, I would recommend using DIO if possible so you could do a simple state check before starting the trigger model.  But, as long as your trigger line starts low, this trigger model should be fine.  If this is a script, you could add some TSP logic before hand to wait for a falling edge then change the external trigger logic to either and initiate the model.  To hard code it even more, you could rewrite the commands outside the trigger model so you could change trigger.extin.edge between rising and falling after every detected event.

I wouldn't worry about the optimization warning for this setup, you explicitly want to use the same event for two wait statements in this case.  One way to simplify this a bit would to move the stop block to position 2, then change the second wait block to a BRANCH_ON_EVENT block and branch to position 2, i.e.:
Code: [Select]
trigger.model.setblock(1, trigger.BLOCK_BUFFER_CLEAR, buffer)
trigger.model.setblock(2, trigger.BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE, buffer, trigger.COUNT_STOP)
trigger.model.setblock(3, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_EXTERNAL, trigger.CLEAR_ENTER)
trigger.model.setblock(4, trigger.BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE, buffer, trigger.COUNT_INFINITE)
trigger.model.setblock(5, trigger.BLOCK_BRANCH_ON_EVENT, trigger.EVENT_EXTERNAL, 2)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on March 08, 2019, 05:42:17 am
Hi,

I just got my DMM6500 for work today.
First impression looks good, had a few errors when using apps or switching between kickstart and local, but nothing dramatic.

I do have a few questions though:
- There is an A4 environmental info sheet included but it states that the PCB is still using lead but I think this is forbidden in Europe for new products, is this correct or just an old form in the box that was never updated?
Or maybe DMMs are an exception.
(the year on the paper was 2007)

- Do the 7700 series cards fit on it like the 7710, I thought only the 2000 cards?
I ask because in the DMM6500 firmware "update notes" I read:
Quote
Reference number: NIHK-6331
The 7701, 7706, or 7708 now make accurate measurements for all combinations of 2-wire and 4-wire measurements, whether in a scan, script, or from the display.
It's not a shared firmware with the DAQ6510.

-Did anyone make an FFT app, do you think that is possible, i mean can we make XY graphs?
I saw the clock app so looks possible, I don't know about speed.
Like instead of moving over the wave data to see the time zoom, you would see like a 1024 points FFT.

- What do you need to build an TSPAPP, also the tsp builder?

Edit: one FEATURE REQUEST: could someone just make the numbers on the axis better chosen (less digits when not needed)
Example: I have a histogram with Y-grid 0, 40.1 ,80.2 ,120.3 etc. what was wrong with a grid of 0, 40, 80, 120??
I don't say less accurate by rounding, but choose the grid size better.
I remember when I was young and had a TI calculator the graph XY steps were always long numbers.
I figured out how they determined the steps and I wrote a script that adjusted the max. values of the X and Y axis so the step size would be a nice round number. (in this example just choose the max value 400 instead of 401.0 and for the X-axis that could easily be -1.700, -1.600, -1.500 etc.)

FYI the firmware version on it was 1.0.02a and it updated without problem.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on March 09, 2019, 04:00:51 am
I got my first blue screen while doing measurements, changing voltage measure settings, math and going to the graphs, no USB or LAN used:
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: jancumps on March 10, 2019, 12:43:44 am

...
-Did anyone make an FFT app, do you think that is possible, i mean can we make XY graphs?
...

I am trying to do that - either a script or an app.
I'm currently testing if I can use the histogram gaph to show buckets of values.
If I can do that, I'm going to try to use existing fft sources to turn digitised measurements into buckets.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: jancumps on March 10, 2019, 01:16:08 am
mixed results :)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/?action=dlattach;attach=672144;image)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on March 10, 2019, 02:16:07 am
So let me try to understand it:
You take your measurement buffer and make a new 'fake' frequency measurement buffer and hence you can use the existing graph, correct?
You could do that with only a script I think, it's a creative solution, would also allow to test the processing power.
Do you know what the max. number of bins is for the graph? Since that will be your freq resolution in relation to your sample rate.

The amplitude axis 'count' you will not be able to convert to amplitude I assume, although the ratios would be right.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: jancumps on March 10, 2019, 02:25:33 am
Quote
You take your measurement buffer and make a new 'fake' frequency measurement buffer and hence you can use the existing graph, correct?
Yes. I haven't done any measurements. Just created a buffer with unit Hz.
Filled it with 10 sample values (100, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1) using a script.
Displayed it using the Histogram functionality.


Nothing else is happening in my script.
I figured if I can display an array in the histogram view, and I can use an FTT script to turn samples into the frequency domain via known FTT algorithms, I'd be close to a solution.
The maximum number of bins is 700.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: TCD330 on March 19, 2019, 06:36:59 am
I am looking for a new bench multimeter and came across this thread.
From what I can read the DMM6500 will be on my short-list.

Some questions I hope someone can answer.

I understand that there is a lithium coin cell used for the real-time clock, and that it is meant to be factory replaced. The DMM6500 datasheet indicates 3+ years of battery life. If I replace this battery myself, will it affect calibration? If the DMM6500 is permanently connnected to mains without being swithced on, will the coin cell be drained, or will the real-time clock be powered from mains?

I understand that the DMM6500 is / was bundled with a free licence for the KickStarter software. I read it was valid until March this year. Does this mean end of February or end of March? I checked with RS in Norway, and they had never heard about any such bundle.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on March 23, 2019, 02:42:02 am
I do have a few questions though:
- There is an A4 environmental info sheet included but it states that the PCB is still using lead but I think this is forbidden in Europe for new products, is this correct or just an old form in the box that was never updated?
Or maybe DMMs are an exception.
(the year on the paper was 2007)
The DMM6500/6510 are definitely RoHS compliant (the EU rule that prevents lead and cadmium use), but they still may contain those in certain parts.  They have some exemptions for things like high voltage components, and certain required alloys.  That sheet that's included is for some Chinese laws that have different requirements from RoHS.  I'm not terribly familiar with them so I can't go into detail but that's the reason for the discrepancy. 

- Do the 7700 series cards fit on it like the 7710, I thought only the 2000 cards?
I ask because in the DMM6500 firmware "update notes" ...
No, only the 2000 cards work with the DMM6500, the 77xx cards are only for the DAQ6510 (they really look very different, you couldn't confuse them in person).  I believe they made the decision to share the release notes between the two instruments to simplify things, so there may be other places where exclusive features are referenced in updates.

-Did anyone make an FFT app, do you think that is possible, i mean can we make XY graphs?
I saw the clock app so looks possible, I don't know about speed.
Like instead of moving over the wave data to see the time zoom, you would see like a 1024 points FFT.
Someone was working on one early in development but it was very slow.  I will see if I can find it to see if it still works in the current firmware. 

- What do you need to build an TSPAPP, also the tsp builder?
Instructions will be coming later this year, but really they're just text files with .tspa extension.  They have some header requirements as well, I would look at existing examples to see what the header fields are.  Test Script Builder is an IDE for developing in TSP, but technically you could use anything to write them.

Edit: one FEATURE REQUEST: could someone just make the numbers on the axis better chosen (less digits when not needed)
Example: I have a histogram with Y-grid 0, 40.1 ,80.2 ,120.3 etc. what was wrong with a grid of 0, 40, 80, 120??
I don't say less accurate by rounding, but choose the grid size better.
I remember when I was young and had a TI calculator the graph XY steps were always long numbers.
I figured out how they determined the steps and I wrote a script that adjusted the max. values of the X and Y axis so the step size would be a nice round number. (in this example just choose the max value 400 instead of 401.0 and for the X-axis that could easily be -1.700, -1.600, -1.500 etc.)
Noted, thanks!

I understand that there is a lithium coin cell used for the real-time clock, and that it is meant to be factory replaced. The DMM6500 datasheet indicates 3+ years of battery life. If I replace this battery myself, will it affect calibration? If the DMM6500 is permanently connnected to mains without being swithced on, will the coin cell be drained, or will the real-time clock be powered from mains?
It might?  The box isn't supposed to be opened at all, that's what the calibration is counting on, realistically, the calibration probably wouldn't change that much.  If you care about the calibration though you're probably sending it in once a year so they could just change the battery then if it dies. 

All you need to do to replace that battery is pull off the front panel panel and put another CR2032 battery in, it's in a holder right behind the display.  The battery will drain whenever the unit isn't on, even if it's connected to mains.  But, the ONLY thing that battery powers is the real time clock which has such a low drain that it's basically the same as the charge leakage of the battery.  Really, you're limited by the battery's shelf life minus a couple months maybe.  Also, it doesn't affect measurements at all, so if it dies you might not have any need to replace it, the date of the instrument would just be wrong whenever you turn it on.

I understand that the DMM6500 is / was bundled with a free licence for the KickStarter software. I read it was valid until March this year. Does this mean end of February or end of March? I checked with RS in Norway, and they had never heard about any such bundle.
It was originally valid until March 31st of this year (so through next week) but that will shortly be extended another few months at least.  You can tell them to check Tektronix Sales Tools for MSR 113-2485, or look at the DMM6500 partner presentation, or talk to their Tektronix rep if they need help figuring out what to do.  They should quote you a KICKSTARTFL-BASE license and discount it to $0, so in the quote you will still see the full price of the license and a separate item that takes that price off.  If they STILL won't give it to you for free, you can go ahead and make the purchase and talk to the Tektronix sales reps in Norway to get KickStart afterwords.  Just explain the situation and give them the serial number of your unit.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on March 26, 2019, 02:05:16 am
I understand that the DMM6500 is / was bundled with a free licence for the KickStarter software. I read it was valid until March this year. Does this mean end of February or end of March? I checked with RS in Norway, and they had never heard about any such bundle.
I bought it at farnell.com, when I registered on https://www.tek.com/ (https://www.tek.com/) I got a redeem button for the license code.
But from what I understood this type of license cannot be moved to another computer. (I did not try though)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: gas_liosia on March 27, 2019, 08:43:38 am
Dear all, hello. I used to be a guest in the forum but finally this is my first post. I had an early DMM6500 unit and I faced a problem with a humming noise from the transformer. I communicated with TEK and they offered me a new replacement unit because some of the early ones had the same problem. The new one seems to work fine. I see that there is a new firmware available V1.0.04 that I would like to install, but I can't find the V1.0.02a that I have already installed in case I would like to do a downgrade. I dont't know if it is a special version for me due to my first problem, although I think that the problem was in the hardware. Does anyone have the V1.0.02a file?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Joel_l on March 28, 2019, 06:34:11 am
Hi,

I was about to pull the trigger on a 34465A when I saw this, seems like a better deal all around, specs and features. I see the best price at valuetronixs. Anyone deal with them?

Joel
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: shodan@micron on March 28, 2019, 02:40:27 pm
Hi dear Brad O
Thanks for add Excel export in 2.0.5 Kickstart release!

Also i have problems with high precision measurements in Kickstart, as example:
1 - When i measure 10.59077 value on 10V range, main(settings) screen shows only 10.5908 - last digit lost.
2 - No auto-zero config on settings screen.
3 - On graph last digits also desapear, as result horizontal line legends are same.

DMM6500 also do not shows last digit's on graph, horizontal line legends are same.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: kado on March 28, 2019, 11:48:09 pm
shodan@micron / Brad O.

want to double all that mentioned  details in KickStart !!!

Karsten




Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on March 29, 2019, 01:30:52 am
That's it, why I use the csv in libre office directly.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on April 03, 2019, 07:47:27 am
I bought it at farnell.com, when I registered on https://www.tek.com/ (https://www.tek.com/) I got a redeem button for the license code.
But from what I understood this type of license cannot be moved to another computer. (I did not try though)
That is true, that's a "locked" license so it is tied to the computer you first register the software to.  That's a separate promotion running right now I think for all of our touch screen instruments.  If you'd still like the floating license, you can reach out to the Tek office for your geographic location (www.tek.com/contact_us (http://www.tek.com/contact_us)). 

Also i have problems with high precision measurements in Kickstart, as example:
1 - When i measure 10.59077 value on 10V range, main(settings) screen shows only 10.5908 - last digit lost.
2 - No auto-zero config on settings screen.
3 - On graph last digits also desapear, as result horizontal line legends are same.

DMM6500 also do not shows last digit's on graph, horizontal line legends are same.
Hmm, I see what you mean. I've passed those comments along to the KickStart folks, I'll post again if they get back to me with a detailed response.  I agree with you though.

On the DMM6500 graph, that's been largely fixed in the latest development firmware, the next firmware will increase the graph resolution so you'll be able to see several spaces beyond the instrument specs.  Which reminds me, unfortunately the release of the next firmware has been delayed until the end of May.  The team was really hoping to get it out by the end of March but it just wasn't ready with all the features we wanted in it.  In addition, we've been trying to incorporate the feedback everyone here on EEVBlog has given.  It's really quite hard to get direct feedback from people in this industry so your comments and problems have been extremely helpful in learning more about how people are using our instruments so thank you all!
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on April 05, 2019, 03:58:31 am
From the KickStart folks:
Also i have problems with high precision measurements in Kickstart, as example:
1 - When i measure 10.59077 value on 10V range, main(settings) screen shows only 10.5908 - last digit lost.
2 - No auto-zero config on settings screen.
3 - On graph last digits also desapear, as result horizontal line legends are same.

DMM6500 also do not shows last digit's on graph, horizontal line legends are same.
1- They're aware of this one, the 6500 seems to have had its number of digits truncated 1 too many in some cases.  So a basic bug, it will be fixed in the next release.
2- This was actually already planned for the next release.  It's going through testing now.
3- They're aware of this one too and hope to have a fix in the next release by extending the number of digits available to the y-axis.  This one is a bit trickier than the DMM6500 front panel though as it affects all the instruments and there's a couple different ways to solve it.  It's on the docket though, thanks for the feedback!
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: TCD330 on April 05, 2019, 07:09:07 am
I finally got my DMM6500.

I provided Elfa Distrelec with the spoon-feeding instructions from Brad, but they did still not get it. They believed the Kickstart software maybe was in the box together with the instrument, but did not know for sure.

Instead of wasting more time on them, I found I could buy directly from Tek parter Nortelco in Norway. Same price, and excellent service. Lession learnt is that the Distrelec system only push boxes. Distrelec is listed as a partner on tek.com, but seems to lack a lot when it comes to product knowledge. Not my problem, but others might find other sellers more worthy their money.

I had more or less settled on a 34461A, but since Brad was active in this tread providing real help to many since long time ago, I took a closer look at the DMM6500. Now I must spend a lot of time figuring out what I bought; this is much more than just a "multimeter" :) Thanks again Brad for your assistance!
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: kado on April 05, 2019, 04:01:28 pm
Same experience here with "Distrelec" !!!

Waiting now more than 8 weeks for a Reedem - invitation to licence my KickStart-Basic FLOATING licence in my customer database.

German Tek office won´t / can´t help me even I send them my invoice where are listed the DMM6500 AND the KickStart-FL Software. Shame ... wasted time with several phone calls and a lot of emails.

Can´t understand Tek´s philosophy with this handling for selling / promoting this Licence and the customer care. Never had that experience with KS in the past years.

Sorry for ranting, but my good feeling for this purchase is over now.

Karsten
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on April 06, 2019, 07:35:56 pm
 A small update.

 Yesterday I firstly tested the measurepower.tsp script. Before there was no need and opportunity.
 Everything works fine. There is the possibility of independent measurements. The picture can explain it.

 The inputs of the multimeter have a galvanic connection (the second picture). I think this may affect accuracy. I ask Brad to explain the inner structure and imposed restrictions.

 Thanks.
 M.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: jancumps on April 06, 2019, 11:03:43 pm
This has been addressed here somewhere - I thought in thos thread but can't find it back ...
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on April 07, 2019, 06:50:36 am

This has been addressed here somewhere - I thought in thos thread but can't find it back ...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg1942459/#msg1942459 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg1942459/#msg1942459)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on April 08, 2019, 12:26:48 am
The inputs of the multimeter have a galvanic connection (the second picture). I think this may affect accuracy. I ask Brad to explain the inner structure and imposed restrictions.
The first picture is correct.
The shunt can be connected both to the upper arm and to the lower arm.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on April 08, 2019, 01:29:16 am
The shunt can be connected both to the upper arm and to the lower arm.

Please detail. What is the maximum voltage between INPUT LO and SENSE LO?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on April 08, 2019, 01:42:21 am
Please detail. What is the maximum voltage between INPUT LO and SENSE LO?
Max (SENSE HI-SENSE LO) voltage is 10V.
INPUT LO - SENSE LO  I do not know
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on April 09, 2019, 02:42:24 am
 I think it's 12 volts. Who will offer more?

 Page 10, spec-sheet.

 Note 35. See DC VOLTAGE ACCURACY. SHI and SLO: 10 V range only. SHI and SLO (sense) terminals referenced to LO input. Maximum voltage
referenced to LO 12 V.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on April 09, 2019, 02:57:21 am
I think it's 12 volts. Who will offer more?
:))))) 12V = 10V + 20% stock

Quote
Page 10, spec-sheet.

 Note 35. See DC VOLTAGE ACCURACY. SHI and SLO: 10 V range only. SHI and SLO (sense) terminals referenced to LO input. Maximum voltage
referenced to LO 12 V.
New datasheet?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on April 09, 2019, 03:06:50 am
I think it's 12 volts. Who will offer more?
:))))) 12V = 10V + 20% stock

Quote
Page 10, spec-sheet.

 Note 35. See DC VOLTAGE ACCURACY. SHI and SLO: 10 V range only. SHI and SLO (sense) terminals referenced to LO input. Maximum voltage
referenced to LO 12 V.
New datasheet?
Indeed, it is 12V.  The page 10 reference is from the spec sheet (attached) which has the same information but is formatted differently from the datasheet
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on April 09, 2019, 08:18:54 pm
Which reminds me, unfortunately the release of the next firmware has been delayed until the end of May.  The team was really hoping to get it out by the end of March but it just wasn't ready with all the features we wanted in it.  In addition, we've been trying to incorporate the feedback everyone here on EEVBlog has given.  It's really quite hard to get direct feedback from people in this industry so your comments and problems have been extremely helpful in learning more about how people are using our instruments so thank you all!

Thanks again for listening to the users and providing excellent support here. Since you were talking about bugs already fixed in the development firmware for a while I was hoping that the new firmware would arrive soon thus I was holding my bug+wish list to avoid double posting. Since it's not coming anytime soon I decided to dump my bug/wish list here so that the other members can also chime in and correct me if my wishes are not good ideas for general/professional use. So here is my list of two cents:

HW and Main Features
Buffers
General UI
Graph
Web interface
Other
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on April 09, 2019, 09:18:58 pm
Thanks cozdas for this compilation.
What i consider to be very worthy of improvement among the points presented here, is the "Graph scale value entry dialog", only in steps of 10 on the y-scala, which is much too rough for the display of measured values. All that remains is the imprecise touchscreen settings. The same applies to the much too imprecise positioning of the cursors. (Regarding the cursors: they should be also assignable to different colors.)

Something I observed, with request for a countertest:it seems that screen switching in the web-interface affects the measurement result. At least I observe in irregular distances corresponding disturbing deflections on the Y-axis in the DC-µV range, which falsify the statistical result of my voltage references.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on April 09, 2019, 09:38:40 pm
Another GUI behaviour.
Scale menu:
The scale values of the x-y-axis should always be freely editable without having to not intuitively switch the method back and forth to off mode.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Mike G on April 11, 2019, 04:01:35 pm
Hi all, have read this forum for years but as this is my first post so please be gentle :)   I hope Brad picks this up as I have just received my DMM6500, a decision based almost entirely on his unbiassed information and support, plus the feedback from all other contributors on this topic, thanks to everyone!
I am a rather senior (ok old) tech and one of the reasons that made me choose this meter for the workshop was the flexible programming available, I need to start learning some sort of programming as the last serious effort was back in the 70s with the Acorn Atom.
So far I am really pleased with the 6500, seems as though every time I use it I uncover another useful feature that had previously gone unnoticed.
My question for Brad is to do with programming the OBJ_SCREEN, as in his probe hold app. I have learnt a lot from studying the text but wonder if there is any reference material that explains some of the details of this subject that are not covered in the standard 6500 reference download?
Thanks again to everyone, and of course Brad
P.S.  Can't seem to insert emojis, this is the thumbs up  :-+, any help please?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Mike G on April 11, 2019, 04:24:10 pm
Emojis seem ok when viewed in the thread, thanks.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on April 19, 2019, 06:12:44 pm
I need an array of numbers to do some FFT calculations:

What is the syntax to Write to a buffer?
outreal= buffer.make(n,buffer.STYLE_WRITABLE_FULL)
outimag= buffer.make(n,buffer.STYLE_WRITABLE_FULL)

outreal[k]=5.0 ??

There is also the type 'table' but I don't know how to initialize it for like 1024 items.
Not sure if this would be faster or slower.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on April 20, 2019, 03:45:37 am
My question for Brad is to do with programming the OBJ_SCREEN, as in his probe hold app. I have learnt a lot from studying the text but wonder if there is any reference material that explains some of the details of this subject that are not covered in the standard 6500 reference download?
I'm so glad I can I can be of help!  There is no official documentation for the apps API yet (so most of the display.* commands), but we are working on it! Believe me that you all expressing so much interest in TSP apps has made us want to get it right. The internal documentation we have is quite lacking, and there's a lot of changes and updates that need to made.

BUT, this seems like a good time to mention that we've started a GitHub repository Keithley example code, especially TSP code.  You can find it at https://github.com/tektronix/keithley, I've put some working TSP apps at https://github.com/tektronix/keithley/tree/master/TSP_Apps, including several you haven't seen before like one to control the Digital I/O port (for those of you with a communication card) and the ground work for an app that allows you to email buffers (this was has a ton of restrictions though, they're mentioned in comments in the code).  If you want to make pull requests against the repo, I (and another factory applications engineer, Josh) will review them.  This should make it easier for us to share code with you, and for you to share and get help on code from Keithley.

I need an array of numbers to do some FFT calculations:

What is the syntax to Write to a buffer?
outreal= buffer.make(n,buffer.STYLE_WRITABLE_FULL)
outimag= buffer.make(n,buffer.STYLE_WRITABLE_FULL)

outreal[k]=5.0 ??

There is also the type 'table' but I don't know how to initialize it for like 1024 items.
Not sure if this would be faster or slower.

The command to write to a writable buffer is buffer.write.reading().  Generally, the only reason you would need to use a buffer is if you want to display the data on the front panel of the instrument, otherwise, it's probably easier to work with tables.  Initializing variables is actually discouraged in TSP/Lua, but of course some times it's just easier to initialize than append everything.  The way you do it is tableVar= {n=25}, that makes a table of size 25, you can then access those items how you'd like, with tableVar[k].  Speed wise, they should be about same, but I haven't done any timing testing to verify that.

Also since it's come up again, we are working on an FFT app, but it doesn't work on the currently released firmware.  Plus we'll see how it compares to all the FFT work everyone else has been doing!

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MikeP on April 20, 2019, 06:00:21 am
we've started a GitHub repository Keithley example code

 GREAT!  :-+

 And official page:
https://www.tek.com/keithley/tsp-applications-for-touch-test-invent-models (https://www.tek.com/keithley/tsp-applications-for-touch-test-invent-models)

 Thanks.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on April 21, 2019, 01:28:51 am
About provide syntax:
Thanks, I will try when I'm at work.

About github: nice one!!
I'm thinking about using standard deviation in the sample and hold script and less fine tune settings, the script should figure it out on its own, should avoid the false 'holds' that I got when tested.
But may require a higher sample rate, idea for later.

About 10Gohm:
is there a way to force it to 10Gohm instead of Auto?
When I want to use it I don't want it to change its mind for a few second and then go back to 10Gohm
I need to be able to count on it that it's not 10Mohm.

Quote
Also since it's come up again, we are working on an FFT app, but it doesn't work on the currently released firmware.  Plus we'll see how it compares to all the FFT work everyone else has been doing!
Nice, you do know that it's not fair competition since you have more doc. and you can optimize the firmware for it ;)

about the kickstart license:
At Farrnell.be, .uk also involved, they are still trying to figure out what to do...
If only Tektronix had a website platform to register your device and redeem your copy without having to email anyone to get it. Oh wait, they do, they just didn't use it (correctly), would have made it so much easier for everyone.
But everyone is friendly trying to help.
I also contacted conrad.be to know what their procedure is because the software isn't on their website....

It's becoming more likely that I will buy a DMM6500 for myself :) (I still have a DM3068 now)
At home I'm living by the rule don't pay for calibration, buy a new DMM ;)

edit reply of conrad.be in Dutch:
Basically they have no knowledge of it and advice to contact tektronix with your proof of purchase to get your license.
Their supply is from Germany.
Code: [Select]
Ons is niet bekend hoe de door u genoemde licentiecode verzonden wordt en/of dat deze al bij het apparaat meegeleverd wordt.
Wij leveren vanuit ons magazijn in Wernberg, Zuid-Duitsland en betrekken de artikelen via ons Duits moederbedrijf.
Het kan dus zijn dat als deze actie landgebonden is er bij de "Duitse" versie geen licentie wordt verstrekt.

Ons advies is dan ook even contact op te nemen met Tectronics via het in de link gepubliceerde telefoonnummer: 00800 2255 4835

Het lijkt er echter op dat als je de meter aanschaft en een bewijs van aankoop kunt overleggen aan Tectronics deze u dan de genoemde licentiecode zal mailen.
De software is sowieso al op voorhand te downloaden via de website van Tektronics.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on May 03, 2019, 06:57:17 pm
... the spec sheet (attached) ...

Hi Brad,
One quick question: in the spec sheet you attached there is this statement:
Quote
Limited compatibility with 2001-SCAN and 2000-SCAN-20; see the DMM6500 Firmware Release Notes for additional information

I could not find any additional information anywhere though, including the firmware notes. Can you please clarify the support and limitations for the 2000-SCAN-20 card?

One quick bug report:
Resolution of the stats in the graph page is not consistent, when the cursors are turned on you get the stats for the area between cursors (very useful, thanks for this feature), but the number of digits reduced compared to whole buffer stats which is visible in the same location when the cursors are off. See the attached example.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on May 03, 2019, 11:27:54 pm
cozdas
Yes, but isn't the specification of decimal places in the Femtovolt range a bit unrealistic anyway?  ;D
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on May 04, 2019, 05:18:34 am
cozdas
Yes, but isn't the specification of decimal places in the Femtovolt range a bit unrealistic anyway?  ;D

Hehe. Well apparently it's not unrealistic when it comes to the full buffer statistics. Also we don't want those picovolts hang around there alone do we?   ;D

(note to self: connect something to inputs next time you take a screenshot)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on May 04, 2019, 06:30:43 am


(note so self: connect something to inputs next time you take a screenshot)


As we can see, this meter can detect even fractions of nothing  :)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: TiN on May 04, 2019, 11:59:57 pm
Quote from: Brad O
we've started a GitHub repository Keithley example code
Now I wish there would be similar repository for oldie goldie series DMMs too, like 200x series :).
All this contribution to forum from Brad and Keithley team is real gold, make me want to buy one of these DMM6500 to use develop some TSP app for using Keithley 1801.

Wondering if scanner port in DMM6500 also have I2C and SPI bus to communicate with Keithley 1801? If interfaces are there and somewhat accessible, that would be perfect example when TSP saves the world day.
I know it's very very niche application, but it's the best amplifier there is for nanovolt-level measurements, but I was already impressed by amount of interested people in this niche equipment.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on May 07, 2019, 03:19:54 am
Hi Brad,
One quick question: in the spec sheet you attached there is this statement:
Quote
Limited compatibility with 2001-SCAN and 2000-SCAN-20; see the DMM6500 Firmware Release Notes for additional information

I could not find any additional information anywhere though, including the firmware notes. Can you please clarify the support and limitations for the 2000-SCAN-20 card?
For the 2001-SCAN card, the only limited compatibility is the lack of the "high speed" scan mode on channels 5 & 10.  The high speed channels work the same as all the other relays.  For the 2000-SCAN-20 card, we didn't do thorough testing with it as the idea to include support was added only a little before release.  If you plan on using the SCAN-20 card, let me know and we can complete the testing, but those cards aren't very common and we haven't received any questions about it so far.  Actually, it may work perfectly well, but we can't guarantee that right now.

One quick bug report:
Resolution of the stats in the graph page is not consistent, when the cursors are turned on you get the stats for the area between cursors (very useful, thanks for this feature), but the number of digits reduced compared to whole buffer stats which is visible in the same location when the cursors are off. See the attached example.
Noted, thanks!

(note so self: connect something to inputs next time you take a screenshot)
As we can see, this meter can detect even fractions of nothing  :)
According to Wolfram Alpha, that voltage level is about the same as a neuron firing.  Hold on, I just got an idea for a neuro-surgery App note...

Quote from: Brad O
we've started a GitHub repository Keithley example code
Now I wish there would be similar repository for oldie goldie series DMMs too, like 200x series :).
All this contribution to forum from Brad and Keithley team is real gold, make me want to buy one of these DMM6500 to use develop some TSP app for using Keithley 1801.
I'm open to hosting code for any Keithley products (or just Keithley related code), it will just take time to add them (and I suppose a lot of the older examples we have are in BASIC...).  I and some other Keithley engineers will keep adding examples we have, it just takes time to sort through everything.  If any of you have code you'd like to add, please file a pull request against the dev branch (or just send me your code if you don't want to learn how to use GitHub). 

I've also started putting together a TSP tutorial for the 2600B Series of our Source Measure Units (https://github.com/tektronix/keithley/tree/master/Instrument_Examples/26xx-SMU/Tutorials, if any of you have a 26xx SMU and want to try) that teaches TSP on the instruments via examples.  Once I get it a but more complete I will duplicate it for the DMM6500/DAQ6510. 

Wondering if scanner port in DMM6500 also have I2C and SPI bus to communicate with Keithley 1801? If interfaces are there and somewhat accessible, that would be perfect example when TSP saves the world day.
I know it's very very niche application, but it's the best amplifier there is for nanovolt-level measurements, but I was already impressed by amount of interested people in this niche equipment.
Ah yes, I know your love for the 1801.  The DMM6500 scan port has the same basic communication as the 2000 scan port (which is to say, almost none) and what's there is buried pretty far in firmware.  The 1801 always worked a little different compared to the other scan cards and I think the 2001/2 used a fair number of tricks to control it.  It would take a fair amount of resources to figure out how to get an 1801 working with the DMM6500, if it's possible at all.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: TiN on May 07, 2019, 03:40:57 am
99.99% of my equipment-related code/apps is in Python with GPIB comms. I'll think about what would be useful, and can tidy stuff up and upload to GitHub. Just not sure how that will align with your TSP instrument-related work, as older meters are not TSP-compatible. Hence my question, if you indeed want to mix everything into one bucket.

Quote
It would take a fair amount of resources to figure out how to get an 1801 working with the DMM6500, if it's possible at all.
Sounds like a challenge :) Only problem is that there are no broken DMM6500 on ebay to buy, for trying :D. I actually restarted my old project of 1801 card, adding MCU to attempt fixing 2002 firmware issues.
Writing TSP script for DMM6500 to rescale functions/ranges should be relatively easy, but writing to EEPROM on 1801 card and selecting gain/filtering thru 4094 register need I2C and SPI access to scan-card port. I'd think simple API to read/write byte and manage CS might be enough, if that is possible.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on May 07, 2019, 04:05:58 am
99.99% of my equipment-related code/apps is in Python with GPIB comms. I'll think about what would be useful, and can tidy stuff up and upload to GitHub. Just not sure how that will align with your TSP instrument-related work, as older meters are not TSP-compatible. Hence my question, if you indeed want to mix everything into one bucket.
Yeah!  We specifically didn't want to make it a TSP-centric repo, that just happens to be what most of my code is in since I work with mostly the TSP products.  There's already some C# and python up there though.  And the Drivers sections is explicitly for non-TSP code (which reminds me I've got a bunch of LabVIEW drivers to put up there...)

Quote
It would take a fair amount of resources to figure out how to get an 1801 working with the DMM6500, if it's possible at all.
Sounds like a challenge :) Only problem is that there are no broken DMM6500 on ebay to buy, for trying :D. I actually restarted my old project of 1801 card, adding MCU to attempt fixing 2002 firmware issues.
Writing TSP script for DMM6500 to rescale functions/ranges should be relatively easy, but writing to EEPROM on 1801 card and selecting gain/filtering thru 4094 register need I2C and SPI access to scan-card port. I'd think simple API to read/write byte and manage CS might be enough, if that is possible.
Yeah altering readings isn't hard, doing anything with the scanning port that isn't controlling a 2000-SCAN card is though  :-\
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on May 07, 2019, 07:07:18 am
For the 2001-SCAN card, the only limited compatibility is the lack of the "high speed" scan mode on channels 5 & 10.  The high speed channels work the same as all the other relays.  For the 2000-SCAN-20 card, we didn't do thorough testing with it as the idea to include support was added only a little before release.  If you plan on using the SCAN-20 card, let me know and we can complete the testing, but those cards aren't very common and we haven't received any questions about it so far.  Actually, it may work perfectly well, but we can't guarantee that right now.

Thanks for the information. Last week I've spoofed the port and as far as my tests go DMM6500 communicates properly with the scan-20 chard. I don't have the card but all bits that DMM6500 sends make total sense with the schematic of the card. I was planning to build a DIY Solid state, 10-chan SCAN card (so that I can collect data during the night at home without the dripping tap simulation), but since DMM6500 seems to drive the 20-chan card I changed my design to double the channels (the more the merrier).

I'll let you know if I hit a problem with the DMM6500 behavior,
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on May 07, 2019, 10:58:02 pm
In combination with Brad O's neuro-surgery App, this would also open up completely new possibilities for the selfmade ambitious hobby craftsman.  ;D
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on May 10, 2019, 03:29:11 pm
I was planning to build a DIY Solid state, 10-chan SCAN card (so that I can collect data during the night at home without the dripping tap simulation), but since DMM6500 seems to drive the 20-chan card I changed my design to double the channels (the more the merrier).

I'll let you know if I hit a problem with the DMM6500 behavior,

It's alive!!!!

I still need to buy more solid-state relays to populate the rest of the board but what's there seems to work flawlessly (so far), silent and fast. Since I was trying to keep the cost as low as possible (you can tell from the all DIY PCB board), the relays are not the best, the on state resistance of each channel is around 2 Ohm. But it's not a big deal as I have plenty of channels to use kelvin connections if needed. A $12 Atmega32u4 based board is handling all the logic.

(top board: Keithley 2000-Scan with wires attached for protocol sniffing)
(bottom board: DIY 20-chan solid state scan card)
Title: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: kado on May 10, 2019, 05:03:10 pm
cozdas

amazing! That’s an interesting project. Please keep us informed.

Karsten


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on May 10, 2019, 06:25:47 pm
....
It's alive!!!!

I still need to buy more solid-state relays to populate the rest of the board but what's there seems to work flawlessly (so far), silent and fast. Since I was trying to keep the cost as low as possible (you can tell from the all DIY PCB board), the relays are not the best, the on state resistance of each channel is around 2 Ohm. But it's not a big deal as I have plenty of channels to use kelvin connections if needed. A $12 Atmega32u4 based board is handling all the logic.

(top board: Keithley 2000-Scan with wires attached for protocol sniffing)
(bottom board: DIY 20-chan solid state scan card)

The on state resistance is a kind of compromise: low resistance also means more leakage. So for just voltage measurements one would prefer even higher resistance (up to a few KOhms) and thus lower leakage types.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on May 11, 2019, 09:39:24 pm
It's alive!!!!
A low cost DIY (CozScan 2020) solid state relay solution for DMM6500  :-+
I blame you that I just ordered a DMM6500 for home use  ;)  (I don't expect to get the 'free' kickstart license)
Will this be open hardware/software?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: h4X|| on May 15, 2019, 02:05:28 am
I have decided on either a Keithley Tek DAQ6510 or Keysight 34465A. Really leaning towards the Tek for attempting to drive a bed of nails test rig in addition to daily hardware dev and test logging duties.
Anyone using the 6x8 DAQ module?

PM me any thoughts / links on bed of nails test rig driving (dont want to clog the thread). context: I have previously just used target device MCUs to self drive a test rig, but that has limitations similar to external MCU driver.

Keithley/Tek visibility and issue transparency in the forum on this thread is a HUGE reason for considering a Tek. That takes serious stand up character to manage. My Agilent/Keysight MSO7104 scope has been a workhorse when I depended on it mid career.

Anyone have any recommendations for quotes/pricing? I am in USA and want calibrated new (built in 2019).
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on May 16, 2019, 04:44:54 am
Feature request:
1) A fast way to store the stats of the measurement to USB, I know you can use a screenshot but then you need to store screenshots. You can also not just copy it in a excel file.
Two options:
  A) When you take a screenshot with home+enter also write a second file, a csv with the same name.

  B) Make it possible to link a script to a button, like maybe home+trigger runs a pre-selected script.
      and let the script do the needed actions.
      (This is maybe a feature on its own that could be useful for all kind of situations.)

2) A feature request for the current measurement mode, show the voltage drop! (burden voltage isn't a second measurement) Now I have to check to be sure it's low enough. (although if not much work I choose my own resistor value)

3) For math y=mx+b, support entering 2 points (like: 4mA=0 and 20mA=7) instead of entering m and b and let it calculate m and b. (maybe this should be a script)
Also an option to change the 'X' to an 3 char that has meaning. (sometimes you forget what you were displaying after reloading the settings)

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on May 17, 2019, 04:20:41 am
I made few comparisons: (only one voltage from battery)
new DMM6500 vs older DMM6500
and
new DMM6500 vs old DM3068:  diff 0.0017%

The DM3068 seems to be less noisy.  (I will measure the BW later but the DM3068 is also big)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: JxR on May 17, 2019, 04:30:11 am
Feature request:
1) A fast way to store the stats of the measurement to USB, I know you can use a screenshot but then you need to store screenshots. You can also not just copy it in a excel file.
Two options:
  A) When you take a screenshot with home+enter also write a second file, a csv with the same name.

Something like this would be nice.  If such a feature is considered: I would also like to see the ability to only copy the log data between the cursors, if the cursors were turned on.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on May 17, 2019, 12:18:45 pm
I take screenshoots and csv's per LAN 'Virtual Frontpanel' and 'Extract Data' to Libre Office.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/usa-cal-club-round-2/msg2314803/#msg2314803 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/usa-cal-club-round-2/msg2314803/#msg2314803)

Yes, that's a bit more work, but nothing essential. In my opinion, it would be important to be able to position the cursor exactly at all, instead of just using the imprecise touchscreen.

Edit: Csv's from within the cursor would be nice certainly. Especially since the data already stored on screen.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on May 19, 2019, 08:09:39 pm
Just a quick burden voltage test:
The front goes up to 3A but is only useful to go that high if the burden voltage isn't an issue.
At 1A you already have 0.27V so putting it in series with a battery supply isn't an option.

The 10A must be connected to the back then you can go to 2.8A for an 50mV drop. (17.6m\$\Omega\$)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on May 20, 2019, 07:42:41 pm
Beta storage service (initialstate): Anyone using this?
https://www.initialstate.com/keithley/ (https://www.initialstate.com/keithley/)

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on May 20, 2019, 08:37:53 pm
Beta storage service (initialstate): Anyone using this?
https://www.initialstate.com/keithley/ (https://www.initialstate.com/keithley/)

Don't really know what it is at all. Something to buy?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on May 21, 2019, 05:48:02 am
Beta storage service (initialstate): Anyone using this?
https://www.initialstate.com/keithley/ (https://www.initialstate.com/keithley/)

This is something we're testing right now.  Come to think of it, I probably should've mentioned it here before!  Initial State specializes in cloud based data visualization and monitoring.  The idea is that you can use all the Initial State features with a DAQ6510.  So you could access your data anywhere, set up custom, complex triggers and notifications, custom dashboards etc.  I've attached the datasheet/flyer.  An Initial State account is required and costs money (14 day free trial if you want to try it out and give me/Initial State feedback!) but is otherwise free.  You can then also use Initial State for any other projects, they have a ton of in-depth guides and walkthroughs on using their service with a wide variety of applications and data sources.  The full guide for the DAQ6510 is here if you want to try it out: https://support.initialstate.com/hc/en-us/articles/360024313832-1-Keithley-Datalogger-Integration-Beta-Summary-Getting-Started (https://support.initialstate.com/hc/en-us/articles/360024313832-1-Keithley-Datalogger-Integration-Beta-Summary-Getting-Started)

Feature request:
1) A fast way to store the stats of the measurement to USB, I know you can use a screenshot but then you need to store screenshots. You can also not just copy it in a excel file.
Two options:
  A) When you take a screenshot with home+enter also write a second file, a csv with the same name.

  B) Make it possible to link a script to a button, like maybe home+trigger runs a pre-selected script.
      and let the script do the needed actions.
      (This is maybe a feature on its own that could be useful for all kind of situations.)

2) A feature request for the current measurement mode, show the voltage drop! (burden voltage isn't a second measurement) Now I have to check to be sure it's low enough. (although if not much work I choose my own resistor value)

3) For math y=mx+b, support entering 2 points (like: 4mA=0 and 20mA=7) instead of entering m and b and let it calculate m and b. (maybe this should be a script)
Also an option to change the 'X' to an 3 char that has meaning. (sometimes you forget what you were displaying after reloading the settings)
1) Hmm, so a csv of just the buffer stats?  We have thought about using buttons as shortcuts for scripts before but ultimately decided not to since the buttons are supposed to be universal across instruments.  Scripts are already pretty easy to access with the drop-down menu too, yes?  Or not fast enough for you? 

2) The DMM6500 doesn't have any internal way to find out what the voltage drop is.  The shunt resistors are internally calibrated, but there's also the path resistance which is pretty variable and can't really be measured by internal processes.  BUT, you can use the secondary measurement feature to measure voltage drop by shorting INPUT HI to AMPS, that would measure the internal voltage across the current leads.  If you choose the 1A or 3A range, there won't be any relay clicking on <100V ranges.  OR, you could go a step further and measure the voltage drop out to your DUT by connecting INPUT HI to the high side of your DUT.  You could remove the low side path voltage drop by using the rel feature between INPUT HI and your DUT low terminal before swapping to measure voltage between INPUT HI and your DUT high side.  Does that make sense?  I can draw the process out if you want.

3) That definitely sounds like a good scripting opportunity.  y =mx+b is the standard, but I can see the opportunity for cases where a 2-point definition is more convenient.  It would certainly be possible to use a script to find the values of m + b for you.

@cozdas: Very impressive!
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on May 21, 2019, 06:37:19 am
1) Hmm, so a csv of just the buffer stats?  We have thought about using buttons as shortcuts for scripts before but ultimately decided not to since the buttons are supposed to be universal across instruments.  Scripts are already pretty easy to access with the drop-down menu too, yes?  Or not fast enough for you? 

2) The DMM6500 doesn't have any internal way to find out what the voltage drop is.  The shunt resistors are internally calibrated, but there's also the path resistance which is pretty variable and can't really be measured by internal processes.  BUT, you can use the secondary measurement feature to measure voltage drop by shorting INPUT HI to AMPS, that would measure the internal voltage across the current leads.  If you choose the 1A or 3A range, there won't be any relay clicking on <100V ranges.  OR, you could go a step further and measure the voltage drop out to your DUT by connecting INPUT HI to the high side of your DUT.  You could remove the low side path voltage drop by using the rel feature between INPUT HI and your DUT low terminal before swapping to measure voltage between INPUT HI and your DUT high side.  Does that make sense?  I can draw the process out if you want.
1) Yes just the stats also cursors if there are any, can we write a custom csv file to usb with scripts?
Fast, well would be easy if it was present in the same screenshot function so they match an I guess this is little work or risk for firmware.

2) Hmm I'm going to give that a try, but I don't need to see the exact drop but more like a warning of expected max drop like 2 digits accuracy. Like text in a new tab you update when going there "The burden voltage is about 0.23V at max current in the buffer and 0.52V at full range."
I assume it's possible in a script, maybe with your own measured values.

I just did a frequency measure test and it's within specification although I did expect it to be much better than spec.
My Rigol DM3068 (spec 0.007%) is measuring 100kHz correctly up to the last digit 0.1Hz
My DMM6500 shows 1.3Hz too high, not planning to use it as an accurate frequency measurement device.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on May 21, 2019, 08:59:21 pm
Quite some part of the burden voltage for the highest current range comes from the fuse. Those larger high performance fuses have quite some resistance. Another point are switch contacts. So an estimate could be quite a bit off, especially if the fuse is replaced with a different brand / batch.

The information one the estimated / max burden is in the manual, but with so much screen area an information on the scree can be a good idea even if with some 25% uncertainty.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on May 22, 2019, 04:52:08 am
2) The DMM6500 doesn't have any internal way to find out what the voltage drop is.  The shunt resistors are internally calibrated, but there's also the path resistance which is pretty variable and can't really be measured by internal processes.  BUT, you can use the secondary measurement feature to measure voltage drop by shorting INPUT HI to AMPS, that would measure the internal voltage across the current leads.  If you choose the 1A or 3A range, there won't be any relay clicking on <100V ranges.  OR, you could go a step further and measure the voltage drop out to your DUT by connecting INPUT HI to the high side of your DUT.  You could remove the low side path voltage drop by using the rel feature between INPUT HI and your DUT low terminal before swapping to measure voltage between INPUT HI and your DUT high side.  Does that make sense?  I can draw the process out if you want.

Tried this measurement method:
Seems to be a difference of 37m\$\Omega\$ less, I'm losing a bit of wire there.

edit: adding 100mA and 10mA range, it isn't working as expected. (relay switching)

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on May 22, 2019, 08:43:12 am
1) Hmm, so a csv of just the buffer stats?  We have thought about using buttons as shortcuts for scripts before but ultimately decided not to since the buttons are supposed to be universal across instruments.  Scripts are already pretty easy to access with the drop-down menu too, yes?  Or not fast enough for you? 
1) Yes just the stats also cursors if there are any, can we write a custom csv file to usb with scripts?
Fast, well would be easy if it was present in the same screenshot function so they match an I guess this is little work or risk for firmware.
Yes you can write custom csv files pretty easily using file.open() and file.write(). The next firmware will include support for getting buffer stats of a subset of the buffer, which is how cursor stats work, if not the ability to automatically create those csv files with screenshots. 

2) The DMM6500 doesn't have any internal way to find out what the voltage drop is.  The shunt resistors are internally calibrated, but there's also the path resistance which is pretty variable and can't really be measured by internal processes.  BUT, you can use the secondary measurement feature to measure voltage drop by shorting INPUT HI to AMPS, that would measure the internal voltage across the current leads.  If you choose the 1A or 3A range, there won't be any relay clicking on <100V ranges.  OR, you could go a step further and measure the voltage drop out to your DUT by connecting INPUT HI to the high side of your DUT.  You could remove the low side path voltage drop by using the rel feature between INPUT HI and your DUT low terminal before swapping to measure voltage between INPUT HI and your DUT high side.  Does that make sense?  I can draw the process out if you want.
2) Hmm I'm going to give that a try, but I don't need to see the exact drop but more like a warning of expected max drop like 2 digits accuracy. Like text in a new tab you update when going there "The burden voltage is about 0.23V at max current in the buffer and 0.52V at full range."
I assume it's possible in a script, maybe with your own measured values.
It sounds like you might just want to set up a limit then?  You could estimate at what current you'll start worrying about burden voltage and set up a measurement limit to warn you at that level.

2) The DMM6500 doesn't have any internal way to find out what the voltage drop is.  The shunt resistors are internally calibrated, but there's also the path resistance which is pretty variable and can't really be measured by internal processes.  BUT, you can use the secondary measurement feature to measure voltage drop by shorting INPUT HI to AMPS, that would measure the internal voltage across the current leads.  If you choose the 1A or 3A range, there won't be any relay clicking on <100V ranges.  OR, you could go a step further and measure the voltage drop out to your DUT by connecting INPUT HI to the high side of your DUT.  You could remove the low side path voltage drop by using the rel feature between INPUT HI and your DUT low terminal before swapping to measure voltage between INPUT HI and your DUT high side.  Does that make sense?  I can draw the process out if you want.

Tried this measurement method:
Seems to be a difference of 37m\$\Omega\$ less, I'm losing a bit of wire there.

edit: adding 100mA and 10mA range, it isn't working as expected. (relay switching)
Ah, my bad on not explaining this, the relay switching will cause brief discontinuities in the AMPS terminal so the Rigol that's not synced to the switching would measure a higher resistance.  If you hook a scope up to the terminals you should be able to see this.  The discontinuity happens because voltage measurements happen while the current range relay is in the 1A/3A position.  So if the relay isn't already in that position it will be forced there.  I'm not totally sure all the reasons that position is required, but I believe part of it is to prevent noise from reaching the voltage measurement circuitry. 

So anyway, it's best to use the 1A/3A ranges if you want to continuously measure burden voltage with this method.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: JxR on May 22, 2019, 11:30:39 am
The discontinuity happens because voltage measurements happen while the current range relay is in the 1A/3A position.  So if the relay isn't already in that position it will be forced there.  I'm not totally sure all the reasons that position is required, but I believe part of it is to prevent noise from reaching the voltage measurement circuitry. 

So anyway, it's best to use the 1A/3A ranges if you want to continuously measure burden voltage with this method.

Thank you for this magic number.  I've been scratching my head on why couldn't get relay switching to stop happening in certain ranges.  If this information isn't in the manual, it deserves a special place with bold font.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on May 23, 2019, 09:50:35 am
Another graphing bug report:

While scanning multiple channels (in this case 19 channels), the channels are not always displayed correctly on the x axis. As you can see in the attached images (where X-axis is in "show all" and y-axis is in "swim lanes" mode), when the x-axis is re-scaled to fit all, the tracks are aligned nicely but they will progress in different speeds and will get misaligned in time until the next re-scale.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: shodan@micron on May 25, 2019, 06:55:25 pm
Ive tested today my new LM399AH reference on Agilent 34410A parallel with Keithley DMM6500, get very interested results:
DMM6500 is too noisy, but comparsion seems like - dmm6500 have low temperature coefficent.


Both devices connected via LXI Instruments Datalogger (https://github.com/shodanx/LXI-Instruments-DataLogger) apps with initial test parameters:
Agilent 34410A - [ "CONF:VOLT:DC 10", "VOLT:DC:NPLC 100", "VOLT:ZERO:AUTO ON", "TRIG:SOUR IMM", "VOLT:IMPedance:AUTO ON" ]
Read_command = "READ?"

Keithley DMM6500 - [ "*RST", ":SENSe:FUNCtion \"VOLT\"", ":VOLT:NPLC 10", ":VOLT:RANG 10", ":FORMat:ASCii:PRECision 9", ":VOLT:AZER ON", ":VOLT:AVERage:TCONtrol REPeat", ":VOLT:AVER:COUN 10", ":VOLT:AVER ON", ":VOLT:LINE:SYNC ON", ":VOLT:INP AUTO" ]
Read_command = ":MEAS:VOLTage:DC?"

CSV result file: link (https://misrv.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Fri-May-24-21_01_14-2019.csv).
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on May 25, 2019, 10:23:00 pm
Let's check what 1nA looks like, 10Volt over a 10GOhm resistor.
Looks better than I thought it would.  I tried not to move while pressing the screenshot buttons :)

Edit
P.S. my kickStart license is finally shipping from farnell (tek UK) for work.  (the conrad.be (tek DE) email game is just started for home)

Edit2 I received my KickStart license for home already via "Tektronix France and Italy"  :-+  (5 Days after my email)
Different approach though: via farnell I got a package delivery, for home I got an email from tek with everything I need.
Both at the same day :) only the one from work I emailed about it almost 2 months ago.
(farnell did send a big box with an A4 paper in it with the code on it that I needed  :palm:)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on May 25, 2019, 10:23:40 pm
Did you use any filter on dmm6500? What's the input impendance of both? Try to use "repeat, count 10", input z 10M \$\Omega\$, 5 NPLC
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on May 25, 2019, 10:43:53 pm
Did you use any filter on dmm6500? What's the input impendance of both? Try to use "repeat, count 10", input z 10M \$\Omega\$, 5 NPLC
No filter, just 1PLC it's DC current.
The DMM6500 spec says 10k \$\Omega\$ so that is 1/1000 000 of the big resistor or it's measuring 10µV. STD: 0.455µV

edit: ah not for me, that makes more sense :)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on May 25, 2019, 11:43:52 pm
Did you use any filter on dmm6500? What's the input impendance of both? Try to use "repeat, count 10", input z 10M \$\Omega\$, 5 NPLC
No filter, just 1PLC it's DC current.
The DMM6500 spec says 10k \$\Omega\$ so that is 1/1000 000 of the big resistor or it's measuring 10µV. STD: 0.455µV

Oh, excuse me, KedasProbe, that's to shodan. My posting had overlapped with yours.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: shodan@micron on May 26, 2019, 01:30:23 am
Did you use any filter on dmm6500? What's the input impendance of both? Try to use "repeat, count 10", input z 10M \$\Omega\$, 5 NPLC

I show init SCPI commands earler. Decode it:
34410A - 100 NPLC, auto-zero ON, input impedance auto(10G expect), range 10V.
DMM6500 - 10 NPLC, "repeat" filter 10, auto-zero ON, input impedance auto(10G expect), line sync ON, range 10V. (6500 with 10 nplc*10 repeat i expect = 100nplc as 34410)

I think that test condition are same for both instruments.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on May 26, 2019, 03:14:47 am
The representation of the characteristic curves reminds me rather of different interpolation procedures to determine and represent individual measured values.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on May 26, 2019, 04:28:27 am
There was a detailed measurement on the noise around reply  #95 in this thread. The DMM6500 seems to be relatively noisy.
The low temperature effect looks impressive though. Chances are they use a numerical compensation, a little like in the DMM7510.

The Keithley meters tend to use a slightly different way of AZ mode, that includes some averaging. This gives slightly improved performance at low PLC, however as a downside the 100 PLC and similar data may be not that good. Form the old data is looks like the 6500 is also effected by this, though it looks better than the 7510 in this respect. Anyway the DMM6500 does not look like it is really low noise even at 1 PLC.

It is kind of sad, the Keithley does not offer a different, more conventional AZ filtering for slow measurements. This could be quite an improvement for slow measurements. With some luck it may be possible to get this via a script, if there is access to the raw data from a 1 or 5 PLC Az mode.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on June 03, 2019, 01:40:52 am
I tried:
https://github.com/tektronix/keithley/blob/master/TSP_Apps/Resistance_Tolerance_Meter.tspa

- When starting I get an error, like not correctly initialized.
- When I exit the app the custom buffer stays the selected buffer, maybe this should be set back to the default buffer to avoid this next error.
- I got a few bad reading (high impedance) due to bad contact, so had to press retry but if two follow each other I will not be able to do that.
- It also shows rear terminals in the csv file while I used the front.

Not related to this app, can I make saving the measurements so that the column time is always the first column and the measured value always the second?  (makes it easier in excel)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on June 04, 2019, 08:36:11 am
I tried:
https://github.com/tektronix/keithley/blob/master/TSP_Apps/Resistance_Tolerance_Meter.tspa

- When starting I get an error, like not correctly initialized.
- When I exit the app the custom buffer stays the selected buffer, maybe this should be set back to the default buffer to avoid this next error.
- I got a few bad reading (high impedance) due to bad contact, so had to press retry but if two follow each other I will not be able to do that.
- It also shows rear terminals in the csv file while I used the front.

Not related to this app, can I make saving the measurements so that the column time is always the first column and the measured value always the second?  (makes it easier in excel)
Alas!  I blame myself for not testing on the correct firmware.  Updated version here: https://github.com/tektronix/keithley/blob/master/TSP_Apps/Resistance_Tolerance_Meter.tspa

- I fixed the indexing error that caused that first error, the MENU will now render correctly as a result.
- Currently, there's no way to execute specific code when you exit an app.  The development firmware allows for resetting the instrument when an app exits, which would fix this.  Otherwise, since it's a writable buffer, it doesn't really need to be active, but having it active simplifies small things like going to the reading table (so that the results buffer is already up). 
- Hmm, should unlimited re-tests be allowed?  Was the bad contact just due to it taking a reading while you were still setting up or something else?
- Fixed the mislabeled terminals.  Front terminals are actually required for this app... I'm not sure why but I didn't remove that requirement in case there's a reason I didn't see (I didn't write this one). 

On saving buffers in a specific way: kinda. There's quite a few different ways to skin a cat export a buffer.  The options are fed as parameters to the buffer.save() function and are documented on page 722 (15-21) of the Reference Manual.  The option you probably want is buffer.COL_BRIEF, which saves only the reading and the timestamp (though the timestamp comes second).  For the ultimate customization though, writing your own csv is the way to go, that's typically what I do.

Let's say you want to save the relative timestamps and readings from defbuffer1 to a file named "savedbuffer.csv".  Here's a code block to do that:
Code: [Select]
fileVar = file.open("/usb1/savedbuffer.csv", file.MODE_WRITE)
file.write(fileVar, "Relative Time, Reading\n)
for i = 1, defbuffer1.n do
     file.write(fileVar, defbuffer1.relativetimestamps[i]..","..defbuffer1.readings[i].."\n")
end
file.close(fileVar)

In the Resistance Tolerance Meter app, the code to save data is at line 83, in the function save_data_btn_press_event(), should you want to customize it yourself. 
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on June 04, 2019, 05:31:31 pm
- Hmm, should unlimited re-tests be allowed?  Was the bad contact just due to it taking a reading while you were still setting up or something else?
For my test I pressed through the isolation of a resistor matrix PCB.
But it should not be an extra retry, maybe if it failed and more than 5? time the tolerance you have to keep measuring up to 2 second before making it a fail, but this issue may fall in the same category of the sample and hold app that sometimes picks-up a reading it shouldn't, (and I will look into that later to improve/fix that)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on June 06, 2019, 12:18:03 am
How can I make it wait for the ok button?
It asks the input field even before I presses ok if no USB drive is present. (multiple pop-ups)

Code: [Select]
--TODO Please insert code here.
if file.usbdriveexists() == 0 then   --
display.prompt(display.BUTTONS_OK, "Please insert a USB flash drive into the front-panel USB port.")    
display.waitevent()
delay(1.5) -- Wait some time for the USB to be mounted
end
if defbuffer1.n >0 and file.usbdriveexists() != 0 then
statsVar = buffer.getstats(defbuffer1)
desciption=display.input.string("Description",display.SFORMAT_ANY)
fileVar = file.open("/usb1/"..desciption..".csv", file.MODE_WRITE)
file.write(fileVar, "Mean:,"..statsVar.mean.."\n")
file.write(fileVar, "StdDev:,"..statsVar.stddev.."\n")
file.write(fileVar, "Min:,"..statsVar.min.reading.."\n")
file.write(fileVar, "Max:,"..statsVar.max.reading.."\n")
file.write(fileVar, "Relative Time, Reading,,"..desciption.."\n")
for i = 1, defbuffer1.n do
    file.write(fileVar, defbuffer1.relativetimestamps[i]..","..defbuffer1.readings[i]..","..defbuffer1.units[i].. "\n")     
end
file.close(fileVar)
beeper.beep(0.1, 1000) -- ready beep
else
beeper.beep(0.5, 100) -- fail beep
end

edit nevermind found it adding waitevent()

Script above to save custom .csv file (and faster, run script by pressing 'No Script' button)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on June 06, 2019, 05:15:22 am
KedasProbe:

In the moment I don't know anything about programming the DMM because I still haven't found the time yet. But what strikes me roughly is that you don't query the return value of the button. You don't use the procedure as a function. Forgive me if I am wrong. In other code snippets it looks like this:

Code: [Select]
function set_dci_range()
optionID = display.input.option("Select current range", "1A", "100mA", "10mA", "1mA",
"100uA", "10uA")
if optionID == display.BUTTON_OPTION1 then -- 1A
return 1.0
elseif optionID == display.BUTTON_OPTION2 then -- 100mA
return 100e-3
...

That's just an idea, roughly. Don't know if that'll get you anywhere.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on June 06, 2019, 05:11:42 pm
Because there is no option given, only an OK button, hence I know what they pressed, I only need to wait until they are ready to continue.

But maybe I see if I can make it a cancel button and loop detect when the usb drive is ready.
(but this is only when you forgot to plug in your USB drive, so it shouldn't really be used)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on June 06, 2019, 08:21:50 pm
How can I make it wait for the ok button?
It asks the input field even before I presses ok if no USB drive is present. (multiple pop-ups)
and
Because there is no option given, only an OK button, hence I know what they pressed, I only need to wait until they are ready to continue.
...
You only call the ok-button to display, but don't ask when it is pressed, if I understand you correctly. So, option should be "button pressed".

(edit)
something like this:
Code: [Select]
promptID, result = display.waitevent()
...
display.prompt(display.BUTTONS_OK, "some text")
promptID, result = display.waitevent()
 if result == display.BUTTON_OK then
 ...
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on June 06, 2019, 10:00:12 pm
The display.prompt and display.input.option works a little different for the 'input' one it will wait but for the prompt you have to ask to wait apparently.

Can be a good thing if you just want to give some info on the screen but while the measurement is still going.
like display.prompt(display.BUTTONS_OK, "Now is a good time to go get a coffee, it will take a while.")   :)

this is from the manual:
Quote
display.waitevent()
This function causes the instrument to wait for a user to respond to a prompt that was created with a prompt
command.
You can also check which button was pressed but since there was only one I didn't wrote if result==display.BUTTON_OK then because this will always be true.


Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on June 06, 2019, 11:07:54 pm
Yes. I once ventured out because I believe that synergies in the Forum will develop as a result, not that someone have to be right.  ;)

Your problem sounded to me like display.waitevent() is triggered by other events too. The correct react to a BUTTONS_OK event is of such a fundamental nature that there should be no problems at all. If someones own code doesn't act as expect, it usually helps to play around with alternatives. Once have found something that works, someone should reduce and optimize it back to the core.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Brad O on June 06, 2019, 11:32:24 pm
Hey KedasProbe, can I put that script on our GithHub repo for you?  I also see a couple small improvements I can make.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on June 07, 2019, 05:46:32 am
Which reminds me, unfortunately the release of the next firmware has been delayed until the end of May.  The team was really hoping to get it out by the end of March but it just wasn't ready with all the features we wanted in it.

Hi Brad,
Is the new firmware getting closer to release? I'm looking forward to seeing the crash bugs with the user added swipe screens be fixed so that I can start implementing few ideas.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: JxR on June 07, 2019, 06:50:41 am
I'm showing a significant voltage drop in the 100V range when doing a simultaneous measurement of voltage and current.  Could anyone else confirm this:

Voltage Range: Auto or 100V, with an input voltage greater than 12V
Input Z: Auto
Current Range: 3A  (the drop is more severe the higher the input current).
I was using the front panel.

I'm seeing drops in voltage close to 50% of the input voltage, which doesn't seem right.  Would like to confirm if it is my unit or a bug. Look at the last half of this graph and see what I mean when I changed the voltage from 12V to 13V back and forth on my powersupply (Green is voltage). Going from 12V to 13V does a range switch from 10V to 100V (Auto mode).  I don't see any issues in the 10V range.  I sent a PM to Brad, but would like to see if anyone here can reproduce this.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: shodan@micron on June 07, 2019, 07:07:06 am
Hi dear Brad O!

Introduction:
I use DMM6500 or SMU2450 with a very long measurement cycle(days, weeks or longer). I turn off display with ":DISPlay:LIGHt:STATe BLACkout" SCPI command, to save display lifetime. (see note in DMM6500-901-01 Rev. A/April 2018, page 3-7)
After that command i can't turn on display from front panel.

Now it have only 2 ways to resolve:
1 - I can powercycle DMM from front panel to turn on display. It break measurement cycle and wipe all data.
2 - I can send command like as ":DISPlay:LIGHt:STATe ON50" to turn on display. But it complicated in some conditions.

SMU2450 also affected.

Feature request:
- Please add turn on display feature from "BLACkout" state to "turn on with default backlight level", when user press some key on front panel.


PS. On my Keysight instruments like as 34410A or E36313A can rollback display from "DISPlay:WINDow:STATe OFF" state to "full turn-on display" state, when i press "Shift" or any key on front panel.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: imagiko on June 07, 2019, 01:30:28 pm
Hi All -
I just wanted to jump in on this thread as it looks like we have someone from Keithley helping out.
I work with low power BLE/WiFi devices, where current range needs to be dynamic (usually switching between uA to mA). I would like to record these measurements at a fast rate(enough to catch the current transients). To preface, I am not exactly an electronics guy so pardon my limited knowledge.
It looks like the 6500 might be suitable, but I am not entirely sure. I have been reading about burden voltage while measuring these current transients, so how will 6500 fare when making such measurements? I hope someone can pitch in to provide feedback. There is also 7510 that is being discussed, but that is almost 3 times the price of 6500.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: JxR on June 07, 2019, 01:36:46 pm
Here is the chart from page 10 of the datasheet.  It lists the burden voltages for each range.  The 7510 is much better for this particular spec, but it is also quite a bit more expensive.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: imagiko on June 07, 2019, 02:01:03 pm
So 6500 has upto 170mV burden voltage for upto 10mA range and 7510 has upto 15mV. How to gauge how low is "good enough" for dynamic current measurements, since lower is obviously better?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: JxR on June 07, 2019, 02:55:49 pm
So 6500 has upto 170mV burden voltage for upto 10mA range and 7510 has upto 15mV. How to gauge how low is "good enough" for dynamic current measurements, since lower is obviously better?
That is just going to depend on your circuit and possibly where you take your reading.  Say your device runs on a battery, and after that battery is some kind of voltage regulator.  If you take the reading between the battery and the voltage regulator, and your regulator can still provide an acceptable voltage to your circuit regardless of the voltage burden, it might not matter at all.

If you take your measurement after the voltage regulator and your circuit cannot handle a voltage drop of 170mV, and the voltage regulator cannot compensate for the drop of that level, then maybe it matters quite a bit.  Unfortunately I think that is something only you can answer, and the answer could change from circuit to circuit. 

For me, it doesn't matter enough to justify the price difference atm.  It is good enough for me, only you can answer if it is good enough for you.  I still would like to have a DMM7510 though.  If this is a important business decision or something along those lines, then maybe you should contact Keithley to see if you could demo both models.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on June 07, 2019, 04:22:16 pm
The burden voltages for the 6500 are about in the normal range. The numbers are upper limits and include the switch resistance so the actual drop may be a little lower. So I would expect some 100 mV for the shunt and the rest from the switch and fuse.

Only the high burden in the 3 A range is odd and makes me worry a little. Much of this would be from the fuse - this is the downside of the HRC fuses used relatively close to the limit. Still it could be quite some self heating effect and thus possible linearity limitations in the 3 A range. One may get better accuracy (especially linearity) in the 10 A range above some 1 A.

The very low burden for the 7510 in the low current ranges is due to using a TIA and not just a shunt. A few meters, but not that many use this for low currents.  With a TIA the actual impedance is inductive (how much depends on the details) - in some circuits this can be a problem, so the low burden can be a little misleading.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on June 07, 2019, 06:00:29 pm
The very low burden for the 7510 in the low current ranges is due to using a TIA and not just a shunt.
I suspected that, but I did not see official information anywhere. Do you have any document?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on June 07, 2019, 06:53:31 pm
The very low burden for the 7510 in the low current ranges is due to using a TIA and not just a shunt.
I suspected that, but I did not see official information anywhere. Do you have any document?
Only a strong suspicion, based on the data - it gets very hard to impossible to get that good performance with just with a very small shunt.  A TIA makes absolute sense for the small currents, below some 100 µA. In the 10 mA range it's possibly though not that attractive due to self heating of the sensing resistor.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on June 07, 2019, 07:22:07 pm
Hey KedasProbe, can I put that script on our GithHub repo for you?  I also see a couple small improvements I can make.
Sure, but i changed the code:
I noticed when you add these headers the DMM6500 does sees the .tsp as a .tspa and puts it in the application list instead.
So you need to delete the first 3 lines to use it via 'No Script'.
Code: [Select]
-- $Title: Save Measurement with Statistics
-- $Product: DAQ6510, DMM6500
-- $Description: Save default buffer (defbuffer1) with basic statistics info
if file.usbdriveexists() == 0 then   --
display.prompt(display.BUTTONS_OK, "Please insert a USB flash drive into the front-panel USB port.")    
result = display.waitevent()  -- result isn't used, always button 'ok'
loopcount = 0
while (file.usbdriveexists() == 0 and loopcount<8) -- Wait up to 4 sec for the USB to be mounted after 'ok'
do
loopcount = loopcount + 1
delay(0.5)
end
end
sep=","  -- separator ',' used in the csv file.
--sep=" " --tab may be preferred.
if defbuffer1.n > 0 and file.usbdriveexists() != 0 then
statsVar = buffer.getstats(defbuffer1)
description = display.input.string("Description",display.SFORMAT_ANY)
fileVar = file.open("/usb1/"..description ..".csv", file.MODE_WRITE)
strunit=defbuffer1.units[1]
file.write(fileVar, "Relative Time"..sep.."Reading ("..strunit..")"..sep..sep..description .."\n")
if defbuffer1.n > 4 then
starti = 5
file.write(fileVar, defbuffer1.relativetimestamps[1]..sep..defbuffer1.readings[1]..sep..sep.."Mean:"..sep..statsVar.mean.."\n")
file.write(fileVar, defbuffer1.relativetimestamps[2]..sep..defbuffer1.readings[2]..sep..sep.."StdDev:"..sep..statsVar.stddev.."\n")
file.write(fileVar, defbuffer1.relativetimestamps[3]..sep..defbuffer1.readings[3]..sep..sep.."Min:"..sep..statsVar.min.reading.."\n")
file.write(fileVar, defbuffer1.relativetimestamps[4]..sep..defbuffer1.readings[4]..sep..sep.."Max:"..sep..statsVar.max.reading.."\n")
else
starti = 1
end
for i = starti, defbuffer1.n do
    file.write(fileVar, defbuffer1.relativetimestamps[i]..sep..defbuffer1.readings[i].. "\n")     
end
file.close(fileVar)
beeper.beep(0.1, 1000) -- ready beep
else
beeper.beep(0.5, 100) -- fail beep
end

edit: I made a pull request on github
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: hwj-d on June 07, 2019, 07:50:55 pm
result = display.waitevent()  -- result isn't used, always button 'ok'

 ;) :-+
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: shodan@micron on June 14, 2019, 01:28:45 pm
KICKSTART 2.1.0 released
https://www.tek.com/software/kickstart/2-1-0 (https://www.tek.com/software/kickstart/2-1-0)

Quote
Changes in Version 2.1.0
• New scope app now available to capture and log data from oscilloscopes.  This initial release supports MDO3k, MDO4k, MSO3k, MSO4k, DPO3k, DPO4k oscilloscopes
• Added support for Models 6485 and 6487 Picoammeters and Model 6514 Electrometer to the DMM app
• Added support for Model 2657A to the I-V Characterizer App
• Added support for Model 2470 to the I-V Characterizer App
• Added support for pretriggered data in the DMM app for Models DAQ6510, DMM6500 and DMM7510
• Improved digitizing performance for DAQ6510, DMM6500 and DMM7510 in the DMM app
• Improved memory usage and responsiveness for long-term datalogging and automatic data export
• Corrected resistance and power calculations when making resistance and power measurements in the I-V Characterizer app
• Misc. problems corrected."


WOW!!!!!!! Calibration procedure also shared! https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-multimeter-0 (https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-multimeter-0)
I don't see this earlier
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: windsmurf on June 14, 2019, 01:46:04 pm
KICKSTART 2.1.0 released
https://www.tek.com/software/kickstart/2-1-0 (https://www.tek.com/software/kickstart/2-1-0)

This might be a dumb question.... but why is Keithley 2700 on the supported list, but Keithley 2000 is not? 
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on June 14, 2019, 06:16:34 pm
About kickstart 2.1, I see the inconsistency of significant digits displayed itn't fixed, sometime 5, sometimes 7.
But it stored the values correctly so not a big issue it just doesn't look professional.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Mike G on June 18, 2019, 03:37:11 pm
Hi Brad, still wondering when you will be releasing information regarding detailed use of the graphics commands for custom screens. ie can you specify the size of an object button to accomodate more text? Can you change the colour of the header text when creating an object swipe screen, if I add a hex colour code in the parameters it errors saying that only three parameters are allowed.

swipe_id = display.create(display.SCREEN_HOME, display.OBJ_SWIPE, 'Extra Data')

So far I have managed to achieve most of the things I need to but reverse engineering existing code can be a long and frustrating task, especially for a new programmer like myself, so any help would be much appreciated.

Is it possible to remove an obj swipe screen as part of a function to restore normal operation when leaving a script? Trying various methods usually locks up the meter.

A weird problem I have encountered when developing scripts is that when power cycling the meter, it does sometimes freeze if it doesn't like the script, it will hang on the Keithley logo, although the power button still works it comes back in the hung condition. I really thought I had bricked my meter but discovered that the way to solve this is to remove the power plug while displaying the logo, wait at least one minute then reapply power and, usually, this then results in a normal power up sequence.  Your comment on why this happens would be welcome.
Thanks for any information you can release, Mike
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on June 19, 2019, 10:35:28 am
Is it possible to remove an obj swipe screen as part of a function to restore normal operation when leaving a script? Trying various methods usually locks up the meter.

Unfortunately this is a known bug in the current firmware, you can't delete a user-created swipe window. If your script has routines to handle the UI messages from the user created swipe window, once the script is terminated the orphan window will crash your DMM (possibly it's trying to call the routines which are no longer in the memory).

Many months ago Brad told that it's already fixed in the development firmware but unfortunately Tektronix/Keithley hasn't released a new firmware since February. I wish their firmware team was using a modern branch/release flow which separates the development/feature branches from the bug-fix branches which would let them release bug fixes without waiting everything to be tied together. They were expecting to ship the firmware in March but it was delayed until end of May and apparently they missed that target too. My 30+yr software engineer hat tells me that "release often" is the way to go but they may have different limitations/ideas/restrictions in their company, who knows.

I stopped developing apps/scripts for the DMM6500 until the new firmware comes as hitting the crash wall multiple times a hour is very tedious and annoying.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: drummerdimitri on June 20, 2019, 03:38:39 am
Why isn't Keithley developing apps to be run from the Apps manager? Seems like this feature is going to waste  :--

I'd love myself a power app instead of running that power script someone posted on here a while back.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Mike G on June 20, 2019, 10:13:20 pm
Firstly thank you Cozdas for your information, I too look forward to seeing the new firmware release.
Secondly, hi  drummerdimitri, if you need a more finished version of a power meter script I have one that I have made which is quite easy to use. It allows you to input shunt values, both resistance and wattage (and will warn if you overload it), number of readings with options and a start(repeat)  button. It also displays DUT voltage, shunt voltage, shunt wattage and current on the swipe screen and records all data to three seperate buffers. I am only a beginner at this programming and have managed to create this by reverse engineering parts from various scripts written by others with a few ideas of my own.
I will try to attach a copy to this post. I accept no responsibility if you use it. Don't forget to change the "txt" extension to "tsp" before using, if you have any suggestions  or comments they are most welcome :)
If you install a script on to the DMM6500 you can select and run it from the home screen by touching the "No Script" logo at the very top of the home screen, this will drop down a list of installed scripts and you just need to touch the one you wish to use, easie than going to the apps menu.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on June 23, 2019, 05:09:49 am
I made a small script to check the expected burden voltage.

It takes the maximum current in the default buffer and multiplies it with the expected resistance of the DMM6500 + 2 banana leads.
The resistance values are measured values and will vary on your unit/leads but not that much that it will lose its purpose to have an idea of the voltage drop. (for the 10A your leads will be more important to be correct)
https://github.com/Ken26M/keithley/blob/dev/Instrument_Examples/DMM6500/Check_Burden_Voltage.tsp
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Neuromodulator on July 01, 2019, 06:32:31 am
I wrote a script to measure temperature of any type of thermistor (not just the 3 available from the firmware). It uses the Steinhart-Hart equation and requires the input of the A, B and C coefficients. Hopefully someone will find this useful

Code: [Select]
dmm.measure.func = dmm.FUNC_RESISTANCE

display.clear()
display.changescreen(display.SCREEN_USER_SWIPE)

defaultA = 1.027628774E-3
defaultB = 2.393890857E-4
defaultC = 1.555947964E-7

a = display.input.number("Coefficient A", display.NFORMAT_EXPONENT, defaultA)
b = display.input.number("Coefficient B", display.NFORMAT_EXPONENT, defaultB)
c = display.input.number("Coefficient C", display.NFORMAT_EXPONENT, defaultC)

button = display.input.option("Unit", "\19C", "\19F", "\19K")

while (true)
do
    logR = math.log(dmm.measure.read())

    kelvin = 1. / (a + b * logR + c * (math.pow(logR, 3.)))
    celsius = kelvin - 273.15
    fahrenheit = (celsius * 9. / 5.) + 32.

    if (button == display.BUTTON_OPTION1) or (button == nil) then
        text = string.format("%.3f \19C", celsius)
    elseif button == display.BUTTON_OPTION2 then
        text = string.format("%.3f \19F", fahrenheit)
    else
        text = string.format("%.3f \19K", kelvin)
    end

display.settext(display.TEXT1, text)
end

Title: Re: DM6500 Blown Current Ranges???
Post by: gby on July 04, 2019, 11:28:20 pm
I was using my DMM6500 from the front contacts to measure current.  I had the range set to 3.0 A (auto scale turned off).  I used it successfully for quite a while when an accident led to a high current spike.  Now the DMM6500 white current to common is open circuit.  Fine, I thought, I must have blown the fuse so I twisted the white contact out and checked the fuse.  Fuse looked fine and Ohm meter shows a short.  But after replacing it into the socket the current range is still open circuited.

It acts like something was blown open circuit in the current measurement path inside the instrument....yet the small 3 A fuse inside the contact that is supposed to protect the instrument is fine.

Is there another replaceable fuse somewhere inside the DMM6500?  Any clues how to fix this?

If there is nothing simple I can fix I guess I will have to return the unit to Keithley for repair.  Since it is only 1 year old I assume it would be warranty repair?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on July 05, 2019, 12:02:34 am
Maybe some other fuse inside blow first.
You should ask their tech support, they will most likely know what most likely happened.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: HKJ on July 05, 2019, 12:05:15 am
There is a 3.5A 1000V fuse inside, you can see it just before the metal cover on this picture:
(https://lygte-info.dk/pic/Keithley/DMM6500/DSC_2487.jpg)

You can see many more pictures in my review: https://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMKeithley%20DMM6500%20UK.html
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: gby on July 05, 2019, 03:05:19 am
Thanks for the hint and picture HKJ.  I will check it out next week when I am back in the office.  Hopefully it is just that fuse and hopefully they are not hard to order nor real expensive.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: FrenchieRaf on July 06, 2019, 12:29:19 am
Hi all,
Thanks everyone for this very interesting thread full of valuable information.

May I ask the happy owners of this meter, on the first page Mr Krampmeier said he was worried about the time for switching between measurement functions, has this been fixed?

Do someone know of a video showing this?

For EU folks, what's the cheapest online price including taxes for it?
Thanks!And cheers from France  :)

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: exe on July 06, 2019, 12:33:33 am
Feature requests: make unit shorter and remove fan if possible :).

PS I understand that a single-pcb construction and compatibility with old scanner cards could play a role here.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: drummerdimitri on July 06, 2019, 01:02:33 am
I have a couple of question regarding the shunt resistor values for a given measurement.

If for example I am using a shunt resistor rated for 100 A 75 mV does that mean it is safe to use up to 100 A or does it just mean that at 100 A the voltage drop across it will be 75 mV?

Also, can I use the 100 A shunt for lower than 1 A draws or will that result in an inaccurate power reading? What's a good rule to go by?
 
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: jjoonathan on July 06, 2019, 02:38:18 am
Is there a way to get DCV + ACV readings at the same time without the relay constantly clicking between them?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: drummerdimitri on July 06, 2019, 02:41:05 am
Is there a way to get DCV + ACV readings at the same time without the relay constantly clicking between them?

There are some ranges where they use the same shunt resistor such as 10V and 1A range with a couple of other ranges otherwise you will have to wear those relays out.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: jjoonathan on July 06, 2019, 02:49:16 am
Yeah, I saw that discussion when cruising through the thread search for "relay," but that's for voltage + current whereas I'm looking for voltage + voltage. I'd be perfectly happy with a similar solution but even after a bit of fiddling with the ranges I still haven't been able to figure out a click-less combination.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on July 06, 2019, 03:23:10 am
For EU folks, what's the cheapest online price including taxes for it?
Thanks!And cheers from France  :)
I saw Farrell is selling it cheap. 808euro (excl. tax)
I also saw conrad.fr is more expensive than conrad.de or .be

edit www.conrad.it (http://www.conrad.it) is 867 (excl. tax)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on July 06, 2019, 03:26:02 am
Yeah, I saw that discussion when cruising through the thread search for "relay," but that's for voltage + current whereas I'm looking for voltage + voltage. I'd be perfectly happy with a similar solution but even after a bit of fiddling with the ranges I still haven't been able to figure out a click-less combination.
The only good solution to avoid relays is to buy 2 DMM6500  ;)
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on July 06, 2019, 03:46:47 am
For AC + DC there is in theory a way: use the digitizer mode and statistics functions: The average voltage gives the DC value and the std. deviation is equal to the RMS for pure AC. The geometric sum gives AC+DC RMS - this could likely be done in a short script.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: JxR on July 06, 2019, 04:11:53 am
Is there a way to get DCV + ACV readings at the same time without the relay constantly clicking between them?

The 1A/3A/10A ranges will result in no clicking.  The voltage can be left on Auto, or any range you choose.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: jjoonathan on July 06, 2019, 04:25:20 am
I am after AC/DC, not I/V  ;)

Yeah, I saw that discussion when cruising through the thread search for "relay," but that's for voltage + current whereas I'm looking for voltage + voltage. I'd be perfectly happy with a similar solution but even after a bit of fiddling with the ranges I still haven't been able to figure out a click-less combination.
The only good solution to avoid relays is to buy 2 DMM6500  ;)
You probably meant that as a joke, but right now I have my DMM6500 in parallel with my 34401a for exactly that reason.

Quote
For AC + DC there is in theory a way: use the digitizer mode and statistics functions: The average voltage gives the DC value and the std. deviation is equal to the RMS for pure AC. The geometric sum gives AC+DC RMS - this could likely be done in a short script.
It might just come to that.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: JxR on July 06, 2019, 04:46:17 am
I am after AC/DC, not I/V  ;)

Opps, didn't catch that.  Yeah, there is no range you can select as far as I can tell that will not result in the relays clicking.  Anyways, what you are already doing is probably your best bet.

Although if you don't need fast measurements for both ACV/DCV you could probably put a long delay on one of the measurements to lessen the relay switching (or put a delay on both).
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: jjoonathan on July 06, 2019, 06:35:54 am
If I knew how to configure the relay delay, I'd decrease it for more lively updates. The default configuration is no good for browsing.

The problem here is that I factored selling the 34401a into my purchase justification. The buyer's remorse is hitting pretty hard right now.

I know, I know, I'm the dumbass for not finding a datasheet line where they wrote in blood that their 1MS/s digitizing multimeter with a secondary measurement display can actually simultaneously measure the AC and DC content of a waveform at > 1S/s.

Ugh.  :-\
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on July 06, 2019, 08:43:45 pm
The maybe future FFT app may also give you your DC and AC. (assuming they make it right)

On the other hand, what is the lifetime of these relays at such low freq 1Hz. (1 000 000 to 10 000 000 operations?)
obviously we don't want to break them but aren't we over-cautious?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Mr. Scram on July 07, 2019, 01:29:29 am
What's the deal with the Keithley 2000 being sold new at higher prices than the DMM6500? Are there reasons to stick with the Keithley 2000? Less noise?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: exe on July 07, 2019, 06:00:16 am
What's the deal with the Keithley 2000 being sold new at higher prices than the DMM6500?

Greediness.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Mr. Scram on July 07, 2019, 06:08:49 am
Greediness.
The same shops carry both, so I guess that's not it.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: exe on July 07, 2019, 06:17:20 am
The same shops carry both, so I guess that's not it.

Wow, I thought you were talking about NOS on ebay, not shops... Didn't know it's still on sale, I thought it was obsolete more than 10 years ago. Amazing.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: ruffy91 on July 07, 2019, 06:17:36 am
Most probably the newer DMM was designed with a cheaper BOM and more modern/better components.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Mr. Scram on July 07, 2019, 06:27:09 am
Wow, I thought you were talking about NOS on ebay, not shops... Didn't know it's still on sale, I thought it was obsolete more than 10 years ago. Amazing.
It's been the current model until the DMM6500 came out recently. It's obviously still being sold and by high volume sellers too. Those understand the value of shelf space and turnover and won't leave old models laying about in the hopes of selling them at an unrealistic price, so I assume I'm overlooking a demand for them.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: exe on July 07, 2019, 05:28:35 pm
Those understand the value of shelf space and turnover and won't leave old models laying about in the hopes of selling them at an unrealistic price, so I assume I'm overlooking a demand for them.

I had the same question, but didn't find much information except some threads on eevblog. Even if we see some measurements of a particular unit, can we rely that all units are like that? I concluded that we can only rely on specs in datasheets. Spec-wise DMM6500 is similar or better than K2000. If one wants performance, then there is better equipment (e.g., 7.5 and 8.5 digit dmms).

[speculation]
What else can be is may be K2000 is in the list of approved equipment to purchase or something.

Anyway, there is an assumption that they are actively sold. But being stocked doesn't mean they make a lot of sales. May be storage space is cheap-enough to not be bothered about selling them. Big warehouses are in the middle of nowhere, it doesn't cost much to build a big hangar.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: Kleinstein on July 07, 2019, 06:32:38 pm
In some cases the K2000 is used with computer control, as part of a system and they need a replacement (possibly also new for low volume systems). Sometimes it is also being used to the old meter and some people do not like a touch screen. There could also be some buyers how prefer old an proven over brand new without a proven track record for reliability.

It sometimes happens that some pricing does not make much sense, mistakes are made. A still relatively high inventory of the K2000 could also be a miscalculation from a faster replacement. Sometimes a high price is only there to permit a larger discount.

For the measured performance on individual units, it depends on what to measure. Something like a temperature coefficient or the accuracy of calibration can vary a lot between units.
Other properties like the noise usually does not scatter that much between units - so here one can assume that other units will be similar. There is still some variation in the low frequency noise from thermal sources or popcorn noise of the reference.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: shodan@micron on July 08, 2019, 07:16:25 pm
My simple TSP script to perform zero calibration.

See "Calibration and Adjustment Manual" DMM6500-905-01B pages 3-7 to 3-14

PS. to perform zero calibration procedure i use  Fluke 884X-SHORT
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: rej on July 11, 2019, 05:21:59 pm
Hello, I´m searching for a bench multimeter and received a DMM6500 from my supplyer. I´m quiet happy with it, but there is one thing i noticed: There is no exact information about the measurement in full screen mode. It just shows V instead of Vdc or Vac. If the slider tab is active it shows "AC Voltage: Front". I miss this information on the full screen mode. The firmware version of my device is 1.0.01f.

Is it the same on your device? Has this changed with the new firmware?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: drummerdimitri on July 12, 2019, 07:07:37 am
I would like to use my DMM6500 to make general purpose temperature measurements (air, heatsink, liquid etc.).

I read that using a 4 wire RTD is the best way to go about it for accuracy but I'm not sure if the meter has a built in Cold Junction Compensation feature.

Can someone assist me with this?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: 2N3055 on July 12, 2019, 07:27:15 am
I would like to use my DMM6500 to make general purpose temperature measurements (air, heatsink, liquid etc.).

I read that using a 4 wire RTD is the best way to go about it for accuracy but I'm not sure if the meter has a built in Cold Junction Compensation feature.

Can someone assist me with this?

You need cold junction compensation for thermocouples. RTD's are resistors, don't need it.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: drummerdimitri on July 12, 2019, 07:58:15 am
I would like to use my DMM6500 to make general purpose temperature measurements (air, heatsink, liquid etc.).

I read that using a 4 wire RTD is the best way to go about it for accuracy but I'm not sure if the meter has a built in Cold Junction Compensation feature.

Can someone assist me with this?

You need cold junction compensation for thermocouples. RTD's are resistors, don't need it.

Good to know thanks!

How do i set the CJC since I am currently using a K-type thermocouple? Manual was too complicated I need a simpler guide.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: windsmurf on July 12, 2019, 09:23:50 am
Greediness.
The same shops carry both, so I guess that's not it.

Still could be greediness... some companies may have validated/standardized on the 2000 and can only purchase that model, so why reduce prices?   

It might also be getting used as a psychological tool to make people think the DMM6500 is such a bargain.   ;D
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: JxR on July 12, 2019, 09:25:36 am
How do i set the CJC since I am currently using a K-type thermocouple? Manual was too complicated I need a simpler guide.

Unless you have a scanner card, you can only use the simulated CJC.  Best way I know to calibrate a K-Type is with an insulated cup full of ice with water added ( then wait about 5 mins).  Set your simulated cold junction to 0C/32F.  Then continuously stir the ice water with the thermocouple inside.  Use the relative calculation to compensate to 0C/32F once you have the temperature stabilized.  Record the relative value and put it on a tape/label and attach to the thermocouple so you don't have to do the calibration again in the future.

Or just buy a 4-wire PT100 RTD.  Plug it in, and your pretty much done.  You can go through the calibration procedure above, but they are pretty much spot on from my experience.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: drummerdimitri on July 12, 2019, 09:44:42 am
How do i set the CJC since I am currently using a K-type thermocouple? Manual was too complicated I need a simpler guide.

Unless you have a scanner card, you can only use the simulated CJC.  Best way I know to calibrate a K-Type is with an insulated cup full of ice with water added ( then wait about 5 mins).  Set your simulated cold junction to 0C/32F.  Then continuously stir the ice water with the thermocouple inside.  Use the relative calculation to compensate to 0C/32F once you have the temperature stabilized.  Record the relative value and put it on a tape/label and attach to the thermocouple so you don't have to do the calibration again in the future.

Or just buy a 4-wire PT100 RTD.  Plug it in, and your pretty much done.  You can go through the calibration procedure above, but they are pretty much spot on from my experience.

Great explanation thanks! Will be getting an RTD from Aliexpress should be good enough for my needs.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on July 12, 2019, 03:35:57 pm
Is it the same on your device? Has this changed with the new firmware?

It's the same in the latest firmware.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on July 12, 2019, 05:02:36 pm
Hello, I´m searching for a bench multimeter and received a DMM6500 from my supplyer. I´m quiet happy with it, but there is one thing i noticed: There is no exact information about the measurement in full screen mode. It just shows V instead of Vdc or Vac. If the slider tab is active it shows "AC Voltage: Front". I miss this information on the full screen mode. The firmware version of my device is 1.0.01f.

Is it the same on your device? Has this changed with the new firmware?
They do have free space to keep the text bar above with this info visible. (they even have free room for the range without changing the size of the reading)
But what I do for graphs for example is that I go to the internal web page so it's big on my screen, (obviously you need a PC but could be a small one with big monitor)
And yes you can press the touchscreen with your mouse. (although swipe with your mouse isn't that obvious)
Refresh is a bit slower but still fast, and doesn't refresh while doing high sample rates though. (priorities)

edit added screenshots + what is possible:
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: rej on July 12, 2019, 05:22:06 pm
@KedasProbe

Thanks for your answer. I just send an email to Keithley about that topic. Lets see what they think about that.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: AG7CK on July 18, 2019, 07:29:50 pm
First, thanks to Brad O for trying to help me to find a (somewhat) rational way to by a DMM6500 in Thailand last year. I tried several ways but finally gave it up.

This year however, I decided to bite the dust and try to navigate myself through element14's web page in Thai (the flag button for English does not only change the language - it also sends you to the UK web page that of course cannot sell and ship to Thailand). So with the help of translation tools and dumb luck (there is no way known to me for translating button and menu text, so you just push/choose and hope for the best ...)

I managed to buy a meter more or less blindly  :o
They have now debited my card  :scared: :phew: :-DMM :clap:

I have read most of the thread before, but I would like fresh answers:

1) Can I get the calibration data after I have the serial number? If so, how?

2) Is there a free Kickstart now? Or a test license?

3) I would like to have RS232 or GPIB data out (instrument control is not important for me), but I did not buy any modules. I find them high priced. So I ask if there is a way to set the instrument in 'Talk-Only' mode so that it streams data that can be sniffed by the hobbyist?

Thanks.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: shodan@micron on July 18, 2019, 08:48:41 pm
3) I would like to have RS232 or GPIB data out
Nop... only with KTTI-GPIB or KTTI-RS232 extension modules.


I find them high priced.
Price for any Keithley(or Keysight) modules always extremely high.

So I ask if there is a way to set the instrument in 'Talk-Only' mode so that it streams data that can be sniffed by the hobbyist?
You can use LXI. I use Raspberry Pi with my LXIIDL (https://github.com/shodanx/LXI-Instruments-DataLogger) apps or PC with KickStart apps to loging data.

1) Can I get the calibration data after I have the serial number? If so, how?
As i  known - no. You can ask Keithley about "C/NEW DATA" "C/NEW DATA ISO" contracts, but i think it may be also high price.

2) Is there a free Kickstart now? Or a test license?
Yes trial is available - 30 days or so... i use that before buying license.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: AG7CK on July 19, 2019, 12:45:40 am
Thank you shodan@micron for your information.

I have looked at your LXI page. I do have a RPI3+ w/ a 10inch touch screen in a (tablet-like) case called RasPad. I have used it with Python, but have never used ethernet-stuff. I will put it up as a new project. Thanks.

As for serial data I would still like an answer from Tektronix if it would be possible to sniff measurement data using the PCB pins/edge connector inside the communication cover/slot. I make a living in a field where most PC-related stuff after XP is regarded as unsuited for reliable long time data logging, so Kickstart on a modern laptop PC is not a first choice for me.

And if all else fails I can just buy a communication module  :-/O

PS
I looked at your web site. Do you sell LM399 or LTZ1000 board with measurement data?

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: shodan@micron on July 19, 2019, 12:50:24 am
I looked at your web site. Do you sell LM399 or LTZ1000 board with measurement data?
No. I doing that  just for fun.

I have used it with Python, but have never used ethernet-stuff. I will put it up as a new project. Thanks.
I try that with PyVISA, not works at all. That library require NI-VISA drivers, but cannot install on PRi's.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: MegaVolt on July 19, 2019, 01:03:32 am
I make a living in a field where most PC-related stuff after XP is regarded as unsuited for reliable long time data logging, so Kickstart on a modern laptop PC is not a first choice for me.
This is not a problem.
You can even communicate with the device via telnet. Those. you need a computer, a network cable and a little bit of C to send and receive commands.

You can also install the Keithley Visa library and control the device through the proposed functions.

Here are examples in different languages.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: eplpwr on July 19, 2019, 06:38:52 am
1) Can I get the calibration data after I have the serial number? If so, how?

2) Is there a free Kickstart now? Or a test license?

1. No, not normally. After harassing Tek support i got a PDF with the factory calibration report, but that was "an exception".  8)

2. I created an account on tek.com and registered the meter. After that I got a license entitlement for one PC. I even had to ask Tek support "what's this license stuff, anyway?", since it just showed up. Hopefully, this function/offer is still active. The license key gets locked to one specific PC and is valid for 100 years.

Best regards,

eplpwr

Edit: License has part# "KSPROMONL-BASE".
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: drummerdimitri on July 19, 2019, 08:56:30 am
Is there a way to use the USB drive as a Buffer to store more readings or does the DMM6500 only support saving the existing readings onto a USB flash drive?
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: AG7CK on July 19, 2019, 10:39:02 am
Thank you MegaVolt and eplpwr

I will look closer at the code. Thanks.

If necessary I will arass them too  >:D . I have documentation from last year that I tried to order with calibration data from Tek's "partner". Like another poster in this thread I found the so-called partner seemingly did not know what I was talking about.

I will also try out the registration regarding the Kickstart license.

Thanks again for your info.

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: KedasProbe on July 20, 2019, 05:19:37 am
About the kickstart license I think this is still valid:
- You can get the one when you register on tek.com touchscreen device promotion from tek (locked to PC when installed, I assume it dies when the PC dies)
- Second one you need to request from the seller (DMM6500 promotion from tek) but you can move it to another PC.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg2315400/#msg2315400 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg2315400/#msg2315400)

Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: JxR on July 20, 2019, 05:34:56 am
Is there a way to use the USB drive as a Buffer to store more readings or does the DMM6500 only support saving the existing readings onto a USB flash drive?

I don't believe that is possible. If you need to do long term logging that would fill the buffer, you can use KickStart on your PC.  There are some limitations when it comes to maximum sampling rate using KickStart, but you can set the "Measure Count" to infinite.

If you don't have your KickStart license yet, create an account on tek.com and register your DMM.  You should get a free license that will be locked to the single computer you install it on.
Title: Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
Post by: cozdas on July 20, 2019, 05:54:04 am
Is there a way to use the USB drive as a Buffer to store more readings or does the DMM6500 only support saving the existing readings onto a USB flash drive?

Not sure with normal mode but if you use the scan feature you can have the DMM write the readings to USB after each scan (in various formats). It might be possible to define a pseudo scan card and "use" that too but I haven't played with pseudo scan cards yet so not sure about this. You can of course buy a physical scan card or make one (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg2401032/#msg2401032)

Alternatively you can write a small script running in a loop on the DMM (no computer connection needed) to read the value and write to a usb file in whatever format you want. With the scripting capabilities the device is very versatile, you should be able to come up with multiple solutions to save readings to usb file.