C'mon, where is DMM8520 already ? ;D I'm hodling on 2002's though.
I'm hodling on 2002's though.The VFD of older Keithley instruments looks much better than the modern LCD stuff. Also much more easy to repair and more robust. I'll stick with older LED/VFD Keithleys, too. The internal FPGA/softcore madness of the Fluke 8846 is ugly, don't really need that in my lab, the graphical VFD is kinda nice though.
And now DAQ6510 appears on a website from Finland.Interesting that it is only listed in Finland.
DAQ6510 is an acquisition multimeter system
I wound up ordering one of these for work the other day - anticipated shipping date: 25/6/2018.... :-\How did you find an ordering link?
DMM6500. Datasheet :
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2585589.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2585589.pdf)
You will lose less years eliminating the noise of the DMM7510, the 8.5 Digits?
I have been using an engineering sample of the 6500 for a couple of weeks now, and I really do like it. I also noticed that the screen "sponges away" a little bit, but other than that, the look&feel is very nice. The screen resolution is a little bit higher than it is on the 7510, as the screen is a bit higher. It is also much clearer, and the touch interface works very well.
After playing with this new meter for a couple of hours, going back to a 2000 series device feels weird. We are all used to the VFDs, but the LCD really does have a lot of advantages. The data logging alone, with the intuitive scrolling and zooming and a huge memory, would be enough to justify the upgrade in many cases. Another neat feature is that you can upload scripts to the meter which also change the UI and add special functionality. That seems to be very powerful. It also has a very good virtual frontpanel via LAN, which is quite useful for remote debugging.
I noticed that the 6500 also shows very low noise, and the (preliminary) specs look very good (better than all the Keysight 6.5 digit meters). As far as I understand it, It does not need ACAL to get full accuracy, and does not have it.
I don't think I should share the photos of the inside or the pricing information for Europe yet, but in my opinion, it will be a no-brainer when you have to decide between the 6.5 digit universal multimeters currently on the market.
There are still some minor firmware issues which Keithley is working on at the moment. The design team has been very responsive to feedback and suggestions during the last weeks, so I suppose they'll iron those problems out before the meter hits the market in Europe. The only thing that I still worry about is that the time required for measurement function changes is much longer than it was for the 2000 and 2010. No big deal for bench use though.
I noticed that the 6500 also shows very low noise, and the (preliminary) specs look very good (better than all the Keysight 6.5 digit meters). As far as I understand it, It does not need ACAL to get full accuracy, and does not have it.
Is this a 2000000 count meter? Will I need a 7510 or will this suffice for my requirements?
I am very interested in this unit but I am not sure if this will do over a 7510.
The reason why I ask is because I want to get that extra digit at higher voltages to measure the natural discharge rate of supercapacitors and batteries.
Is this a 2000000 count meter? Will I need a 7510 or will this suffice for my requirements?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql78V1fFquM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql78V1fFquM)
HA! I was just about to make the exact same post...url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql78V1fFquM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql78V1fFquM[/url]
"The fucker has a touch screen"
ROFL. Well done Mike :)
I'm a little confused by the spec through. The data sheet 1st page lists "1MS/sec digitizer" but later on in the Typical Read Rates, DC Functions section is says it can only do a max of 20600 readings per second at the lowest PLC.
DMM6500 is now available from Farnell (EU) and I just bought one!
Should receive it tomorrow. ;D
I am really curious as to whether or not it can do power and energy measurements using four wires. If it can I'm sold!
The DMM6500 digitize functions make fast, predictably spaced measurements. The speed, sensitivity, and bandwidth of the digitize functions allows you to make accurate voltage and current
readings of fast signals, such as those associated with sensors, audio, medical devices, power line issues, and industrial processes. The digitize functions can provide 1,000,000 readings per second at 4½ digits. Digitize voltage and digitize current have separate internal signal paths that are optimized for fast response to signal changes.
The DMM6500 allows you to make and display two measurements from different functions. The measurements are displayed on the front panel and stored in the reading buffers.
Depending on the selected functions, a relay may click when the instrument switches between the measurement types. Leaving secondary measurements on for extended periods may shorten the life of the relays.
I am really curious as to whether or not it can do power and energy measurements using four wires. If it can I'm sold!
I don't see it explicitly stated anywhere that there is a "power" mode, but you can measure voltage and current at the same time for sure. Check reference manual page 184.
Calculations may have to be done with scripts written yourself. It would also be 3 wire not 4 wire, as the ground is shared.
From the manual, it sounds like if you are doing simultaneous current/voltage at 1Ms/s it would be 4.5 digit:QuoteThe DMM6500 digitize functions make fast, predictably spaced measurements. The speed, sensitivity, and bandwidth of the digitize functions allows you to make accurate voltage and current
readings of fast signals, such as those associated with sensors, audio, medical devices, power line issues, and industrial processes. The digitize functions can provide 1,000,000 readings per second at 4½ digits. Digitize voltage and digitize current have separate internal signal paths that are optimized for fast response to signal changes.
Possible concern if you were using the higher res mode it might have to switch a relay every measurement? Or at the very least your measurement speed would be in half:QuoteThe DMM6500 allows you to make and display two measurements from different functions. The measurements are displayed on the front panel and stored in the reading buffers.
Depending on the selected functions, a relay may click when the instrument switches between the measurement types. Leaving secondary measurements on for extended periods may shorten the life of the relays.
Yes, it has a fan. It is rather quite, but noticable (and a bit annoying) in a quiet office. I did not notice a dust filter in the prototype.
Yes, it has a fan. It is rather quite, but noticable (and a bit annoying) in a quiet office. I did not notice a dust filter in the prototype.
What about bzzzzzzzzzzz sound when the unit is off? :-BROKE
Just got my DMM6500. Added two quick videos that indicate difference in noise and startup time between DMM6500 and Keysight 34461...for those who are interested: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBE6HV-VWdbL9xBSPX-mOKA (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBE6HV-VWdbL9xBSPX-mOKA)
Just got my DMM6500. Added two quick videos that indicate difference in noise and startup time between DMM6500 and Keysight 34461...for those who are interested: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBE6HV-VWdbL9xBSPX-mOKA (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBE6HV-VWdbL9xBSPX-mOKA)
Only just saw this.
Interesting.
The 34461A is a few bucks cheaper here in Oz, but basically the same price. See it's not killing on the price front.
Another spec vs spec and feature vs feature debate, might be a hard to make a general call on this?
Only just saw this.
Interesting.
The 34461A is a few bucks cheaper here in Oz, but basically the same price. See it's not killing on the price front.
Another spec vs spec and feature vs feature debate, might be a hard to make a general call on this?
The new DMM6500 has digitizing capabilities (1 MS/s) so it should be compared to Keysight 34465A, which costs more than 34461A (about 250$ USD).
Additionally, DMM6500 base model includes digitizing feature as well as 7 M readings memory; Unfortunately, both these features are paid options for KS 34465A.
So, unless KS revises 34465A pricing, DMM6500 is a real “killer” in the 6.5 digit bench DMM segment.
The new DMM6500 has digitizing capabilities (1 MS/s) so it should be compared to Keysight 34465A, which costs more than 34461A (about 250$ USD).
Additionally, DMM6500 base model includes digitizing feature as well as 7 M readings memory; Unfortunately, both these features are paid options for KS 34465A.
So, unless KS revises 34465A pricing, DMM6500 is a real “killer” in the 6.5 digit bench DMM segment.
Ok, but what if you don't need a fast digitiser?
Before getting to excited about the Keithley meter, maybe someone should measure the noise / Allan deviation plot. Some extra low frequency noise like with the DMM7510 could disappoint some users who hope for 7 digit resolution via PC interface.
The new DMM6500 has digitizing capabilities (1 MS/s) so it should be compared to Keysight 34465A, which costs more than 34461A (about 250$ USD).
Additionally, DMM6500 base model includes digitizing feature as well as 7 M readings memory; Unfortunately, both these features are paid options for KS 34465A.
So, unless KS revises 34465A pricing, DMM6500 is a real “killer” in the 6.5 digit bench DMM segment.
Ok, but what if you don't need a fast digitiser?
Well the meter is as you've mentioned on par with 34461A price-wise, so you get the digitizer and 7M sample memory for free. Also, what was a big deal for me, not only it supports the scanner cards but the old common ones (2001-TCSCAN). Also, I believe the software (Kickstart vs Benchvue) is cheaper and even free for now (beta version - 90 day trial).Before getting to excited about the Keithley meter, maybe someone should measure the noise / Allan deviation plot. Some extra low frequency noise like with the DMM7510 could disappoint some users who hope for 7 digit resolution via PC interface.
I should be getting one soon so I can report my experience here. I'll try to capture Allan Deviation as well.
Only just saw this.
Interesting.
The 34461A is a few bucks cheaper here in Oz, but basically the same price. See it's not killing on the price front.
Another spec vs spec and feature vs feature debate, might be a hard to make a general call on this?
The new DMM6500 has digitizing capabilities (1 MS/s) so it should be compared to Keysight 34465A, which costs more than 34461A (about 250$ USD).
Additionally, DMM6500 base model includes digitizing feature as well as 7 M readings memory; Unfortunately, both these features are paid options for KS 34465A.
So, unless KS revises 34465A pricing, DMM6500 is a real “killer” in the 6.5 digit bench DMM segment.
Ok, but what if you don't need a fast digitiser?
First things first: which referenz is inside? :-//
(yes, i assume lm399...)
Yes. :)First things first: which referenz is inside? :-//
(yes, i assume lm399...)
Based on specs, I strongly suspect LTFLU-1ACH, but maybe not heated. Keithley/Tek/Fluke use the LTFLU over the LM399 for this class of spec.
I'ts now obvious to me that it will be more complicated to get good results with the LTFLU than with the LTZ1000, so why bother? I'll quote what I heard in an interview with a guy who's interest in life was old English sports cars, on why he liked tinkering with them: "They give you such interesting problems to solve!".;D
Thanks! It was auto ranged so the lowest - 0.1V
Could you do one more but set the range to manual 10v.
C'mon, let's crack the hood already and see who lives inside. Perhaps LTZ pimping await for brave souls. :D
P.S. It looks like DMM6500 is fairly closely matching in noise the 34461A, see
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/dmm-adc-noise-comparison-testing-project/msg667540/#msg667540 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/dmm-adc-noise-comparison-testing-project/msg667540/#msg667540)
I would like to know if anyone has any experience with:
Kickstart 2.0 (priced) vs. older Kickstart (free): Will this instrument run under Version 1.7.0 and 1.9.8 ?
TSP / Test Script Builder - What can be programmed (without buying accessories) and how?
2000-SCAN Card - Would it be possible to DIY anything based on documentation / reverse engineering from the K2000 family.
KTTI-RS232, KTTI-GPIB, KTTI-TSP - Does the instrument have a "Talk-Only" mode so that one could sniff the data for use on an external monitor ? (instead of paying hundreds of dollars for a simple RS232-Card)
"Big Digit" (Large Digits) mode: Can the display be customized / composed by "programming"?
Anything else "new and modern" (apart from the UI and Digitizer)? [I agree with the posters above who emphasizes the "gadget"-style of this box. I have a handful of older (stable and agreeing) 6.5 / 7.5 digit voltmeters / dataloggers, so I am not worried about noise- and/or drift qualities from this meter compared to "old-fashioned" HP-type meters ... ]
TSP / Test Script Builder - What can be programmed (without buying accessories) and how?
C'mon, let's crack the hood already and see who lives inside. Perhaps LTZ pimping await for brave souls. :D
I'll try to do that over the weekend :) I'll contact you when I'll have the photos.
Regarding the reference, the specs are very similar to other LM399 meters, so that would be my first guess. People say LTFLU-1ACH, but I highly doubt it, it would have better specs and noise-wise too. Also, Fluke 8846A uses LM399 AFAIR, despite being Fluke.
We shall see soon.
...
It was similar for me, I have a bunch of other, older meters, some more stable, some with more digits, but I wanted a modern one with all the bells & whistles.
I gave all the pics to TiN, he did a splendid job with retouching and postprocessing them as my DSLR skills are very mediocre :) I believe he will publish them on xDevs soon :)
For now I'll just say: it is LM399, but as usual pre-aged and pre-selected with custom markings :)
Amazing the level of effort needed to go from 6.5 to 7.5 and then 8.5 digit.Yes, really. But I'm thinking, if I would really buy something like that again next to my Keysight
Btw, the calibration certificate is from 15-May-2018, says nothing else as "In Tolerance",and doesn't contain any information about actually measured values! Is that normal? Big difference to Keysight.
Of course this meter is meant to be more of an eye candy than a metrology instrument.Would you rather suggest a 34465a?
The low frequency noise shown for the DMM6500 does look nasty at first view. However it is not that much different from what you are expected to see for an LM399 reference. It may be the difference between a simple of the shelf LM399 and one selected for low popcorn noise.
It is a 6 digit meter after all and 10 µV in the 10 V range is just 1 ppm. They show some extra resolution, but one can not expect this to be really stable.
If in 10 V range, a 60 µV and thus 6 ppm difference to another meter is also well within the specs.
For me the blue screens would be more something to worry about - a software problem should not get better over time.
This dmm has BIG problems... :-BROKE :palm:
YES.
This dmm has BIG problems... :-BROKE :palm:
Are you saying that without changing the anything on you setup the spikes just showed up
and went away again by swiping the screen?
We had in our equipment a strange touch screen problem, We had to put an 0.1 uf 1kv capacitor between the electronic ground and the earth ground to kill noise on the touch screen supply ????0.1 µF sounds like a lot - normally the usual class Y caps should be sufficient (e.g. 5 nF with high voltage rating for safety). In a meter I would prefer even less.
The supply we use is CSA UL CE compliant / listed, but far from being prefect, some ac component is found on the dc outputs ????
Just touching the screen and the noise drop ??? wow
Having the noise spikes disappear/reduced when touching the screen is interesting. It somewhat points to a problem with common mode noise (e.g. from the DMM internal supply). I don't think it is a problem of the touch screen itself, more like from a switching converter.Is this to me?
So this might really be a problem of the meter - maybe by design or a broken internal cap. The environment might also be a factor, e.g. with lots of EMI from the grid or maybe lamps.
According to my observation, behavior has less to do with capacitive disturbances, but rather the algorithm triggered by shifting it to the left, cause a different processing of the signal to be measured. In other words, it was somewhat "out of takt" before.
I had overlooked this and my first thought was the effect of capacitive coupling to the screen. This description would point towards a software problem or maybe something like interference of the display with the meter itself, like massive interface traffic on the shift / redraw causing the spikes.Maybe, maybe, tcp/ip dhcp (edit: but fixed ip) was connected too ... :-/O
Hi everyone, Applications Engineer for Keithley here. Just letting you all know that engineers here do read all these threads and try to review all the problems you present. This latest one is really strange to us. The graph should have no influence on readings taken, and the analog measurement board is well separated from anything involving the display.
But I think, it's very important to us, to prioritize issues and their fixes here in the forum, not just as a PM. :)I certainly don't want to prevent any discussion here! I just don't want to clog up this thread with troubleshooting Q&A either... (Another place to give good or bad feedback is the Tek/Keithley support forum (https://forum.tek.com/viewforum.php?f=617) which may be better suited for back-and-forth troubleshooting than here.)
Ok, that's a little bit OT now.But I think, it's very important to us, to prioritize issues and their fixes here in the forum, not just as a PM. :)I certainly don't want to prevent any discussion here! I just don't want to clog up this thread with troubleshooting Q&A either... (Another place to give good or bad feedback is the Tek/Keithley support forum (https://forum.tek.com/viewforum.php?f=617) which may be better suited for back-and-forth troubleshooting than here.)
The first firmware update for the these instruments has been released. For the DMM6500 (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1001-and-release-notes) and for the DAQ6510 (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1001-and-release-notes).
seen a lock-up by running a script further once a "blue screen" saving a script... so still room for improvements.
seen a lock-up by running a script further once a "blue screen" saving a script... so still room for improvements.
So a lock-up while running a script and a blue screen while saving a (the same?) script? Could you send me the script you're using? That's likely a problem with one of the commands so we'd like to see what commands are used and the context they're used in.
seen a lock-up by running a script further once a "blue screen" saving a script... so still room for improvements.
So a lock-up while running a script and a blue screen while saving a (the same?) script? Could you send me the script you're using? That's likely a problem with one of the commands so we'd like to see what commands are used and the context they're used in.
seen a lock-up by running a script further once a "blue screen" saving a script... so still room for improvements.
So a lock-up while running a script and a blue screen while saving a (the same?) script? Could you send me the script you're using? That's likely a problem with one of the commands so we'd like to see what commands are used and the context they're used in.
HI,
Found the "Run Script" lock-up trigger (not Blue- Screen) I reported earlier (quite easy when you know what to look for) In run menu switch rapidly between Scripts / Run Selected
(some times only 2 switch necessary) and exit with Menu button then main menu locks up, and power-cycle needed.
This instrument have for sure problems if you have "fast" fingers and I'm quite sure the problems can be triggered all over the GUI, something in the threaded programming needs an overhaul, a bit strange that QC of the firmware hasn't spotted this weakness.
Regards
Claus
Found the blue-screen trigger (from Settings swipe or tab to graph press Calc or Meassure icon before graph window fully loads) see attached video.
To me its a classic threaded programming issue.. one task starts upon another.. the good thing its easy to fix :)
Found the "Run Script" lock-up trigger (not Blue- Screen) I reported earlier (quite easy when you know what to look for) In run menu switch rapidly between Scripts / Run Selected
(some times only 2 switch necessary) and exit with Menu button then main menu locks up, and power-cycle needed.
Found the blue-screen trigger (from Settings swipe or tab to graph press Calc or Meassure icon before graph window fully loads) see attached video.
To me its a classic threaded programming issue.. one task starts upon another.. the good thing its easy to fix :)
Oh yes that's really easy to duplicate, I just saw it on my desktop unit! I've filed the issue as AR61734 and it should be fixed in the next firmware release. It looks like that doesn't happen with shortcuts on any of the other swipe screens, or if you're using the rear inputs, but that one must've slipped by.Found the "Run Script" lock-up trigger (not Blue- Screen) I reported earlier (quite easy when you know what to look for) In run menu switch rapidly between Scripts / Run Selected
(some times only 2 switch necessary) and exit with Menu button then main menu locks up, and power-cycle needed.
Ooh, now this one's pretty interesting and has already been fixed in the development firmware. This is actually a bug with the file selector object and how it interacts with multi-touch. If you have nothing selected and touch the file selector object (just the area itself, not a list item in it) and anywhere else on the screen that's not an active object (e.g. an inactive button) the touchscreen sometimes gets trapped in the file select object so you can only interact with the files listed. Other buttons on the box will work normally since they don't require the touchscreen. Like I said it's been fixed for the next firmware, but there's also an easy workaround in the meantime so you don't have to restart your DMM: press the FUNCTION key and then the TRIGGER key. That sequence will do a soft reset of the display and allow the touchscreen to act normally again.
Thank you so much for sending these, though I'm sorry you had to see them. Incidentally, you seem pretty good at this, you know we have an opening for a firmware test engineer... ;)
Also as an update for the board, I've so far been unable to replicate the shifting noise level problem hwj-d reported, that's in as AR61694 for more engineers to evaluate.
Found the blue-screen trigger (from Settings swipe or tab to graph press Calc or Meassure icon before graph window fully loads) see attached video.
To me its a classic threaded programming issue.. one task starts upon another.. the good thing its easy to fix :)
Oh yes that's really easy to duplicate, I just saw it on my desktop unit! I've filed the issue as AR61734 and it should be fixed in the next firmware release. It looks like that doesn't happen with shortcuts on any of the other swipe screens, or if you're using the rear inputs, but that one must've slipped by.Found the "Run Script" lock-up trigger (not Blue- Screen) I reported earlier (quite easy when you know what to look for) In run menu switch rapidly between Scripts / Run Selected
(some times only 2 switch necessary) and exit with Menu button then main menu locks up, and power-cycle needed.
Ooh, now this one's pretty interesting and has already been fixed in the development firmware. This is actually a bug with the file selector object and how it interacts with multi-touch. If you have nothing selected and touch the file selector object (just the area itself, not a list item in it) and anywhere else on the screen that's not an active object (e.g. an inactive button) the touchscreen sometimes gets trapped in the file select object so you can only interact with the files listed. Other buttons on the box will work normally since they don't require the touchscreen. Like I said it's been fixed for the next firmware, but there's also an easy workaround in the meantime so you don't have to restart your DMM: press the FUNCTION key and then the TRIGGER key. That sequence will do a soft reset of the display and allow the touchscreen to act normally again.
Thank you so much for sending these, though I'm sorry you had to see them. Incidentally, you seem pretty good at this, you know we have an opening for a firmware test engineer... ;)
Also as an update for the board, I've so far been unable to replicate the shifting noise level problem hwj-d reported, that's in as AR61694 for more engineers to evaluate.
HI,
Really like your comment about the job opening... would be nice to rip others code apart after a lot of people had tried to do the same with mine during the years. :)
Found a couple of bugs more...
1)
System Events, randomly select events and "empty" pos in the grid... the "OK" dialog hangs even if you exit with physically Key's it's still present. (see foto)
2)
Manage Scripts, Select a script hold your finger and tab outside frame exit with menu key and you have a lock up (Trigger/Function will fix it)
The bugs was easily triggered within minutes, and shows sorry to say vulnerability all over the GUI
Regards
Claus
1)
System Events, randomly select events and "empty" pos in the grid... the "OK" dialog hangs even if you exit with physically Key's it's still present. (see foto)
2)
Manage Scripts, Select a script hold your finger and tab outside frame exit with menu key and you have a lock up (Trigger/Function will fix it)
Trigger Configure, Tab and hold one of the flow-boxes while applying one or a couple of tab's to the Buffer Clear frame.... exit with Menu.. main then locked
sometimes several tab's on the Icons recover function but mostly completely locked.
A new firmware is coming to the website in 1-2 weeks but it is mostly to fix an internal issue. Expect a new customer focused firmware release in... October I'd guess. The imminent firmware seems to make a lot of these issues harder to reproduce, but it doesn't directly address any of them, that will be for the later firmware.
wn1fju: Add the attached script to your DMM to remove those messages on startup (You'll have to remove the .txt extension before putting it on your DMM, the forum won't let me upload just .tsp). All it does is run eventlog.clear() on startup to clear the buffer messages before you see them, you could add that command to your own startup script if you have one. The only downside with doing this is it will prevent you from seeing any legitimate startup errors should they happen. The reason those messages happen is that a lot of our customers that use DMMs for logging will run a script based on that 0% filled message. That message is often used (and is the recommended use case) for the Service Request (SRQ) bit used in IEEE standards.
elbot:1)
System Events, randomly select events and "empty" pos in the grid... the "OK" dialog hangs even if you exit with physically Key's it's still present. (see foto)
2)
Manage Scripts, Select a script hold your finger and tab outside frame exit with menu key and you have a lock up (Trigger/Function will fix it)Trigger Configure, Tab and hold one of the flow-boxes while applying one or a couple of tab's to the Buffer Clear frame.... exit with Menu.. main then locked
sometimes several tab's on the Icons recover function but mostly completely locked.
So I think all of these involve using at least 2 fingers on the touch screen at the same time right? At least I couldn't get my fingers to move fast enough to see any of these without multitouch. Probably there is an issue with the multitouch process, or at least multitouch should be ignored in these (and no doubt other...) scenarios. Touch detection is one of the things had had to be almost entirely re-written from the DMM7510 and 2450 series SMUs so it's not terribly surprising to me you've found these errors around there.
These are getting filed as bugs since they definitely shouldn't happen, but I am a little curious how you found them. Did you naturally stumble upon these while using the instrument? Or were you doing your own stress testing? During development, a lot of our GUI debugging comes from our engineers using the box in scenarios we expect them to be used in. So I'm just wondering if you (and natually others) are wanting to use the box in a way we didn't expect. Like do you want something else to happen when you hold an item and touch somewhere else on the screen? Or did these happen while naturally using the box and then you went back to find the exact cause of the lock-up?
Whoops, some clarifications:
I was accidentally using an older development build when I was confirming elbot's lock-up errors. I didn't see them at all in the latest development build so you can expect the fix with firmware update coming later this year.
For the startup script for wn1fju, I said there's a downside in that you won't see legitimate startup warnings. That's not quite true since warnings and errors will cause pop-ups that require you to click something along with event log items. So you would still see a pop-up if an error or warning occurred. That startup script just prevents you from seeing informational messages that happen as part of the DMM's default start.
'old' K2700
There is one thing which did not migrated properly: external triggering using the Digital I/O connector in K2700 emulation mode. We had to (re)connect the trigger line to the BNC connector on te back of unit to make it work.I see what you're talking about, I couldn't get it to work either. I know 2700 emulation was tested pretty extensively so I'm not sure if there's a problem with the manual or the emulation mode. The person who tested it is out this week, so I'll get back to you next week with an update. I'm glad you were able to get your triggering to work over BNC though!
Running as Digi I as I often use (actually the reason to buy the DMM) I was fiddling around a bit with buffer-size and sampling rateThis "Communication error" message happens when the main processor talks to something else in the DMM and doesn't get a response back withing its timeout period. It can sometimes happen when the DMM is busy processing a complex setup command and you send it another one too quickly. Mostly, the processor handles these holdups itself, but with your lightning fingers, I could see this error happening. Its rarely a fatal error though and the DMM6500 almost always recovers from it, sometimes without even dropping any commands.
to restore things to "normal" by running a script I have used many times before, a few movments later error shows up...
NO fingers on the screen :) and no communications physically attached to the DMM so don't understand the message..
Blue Screen Swiping in Diode Function see DMM6500_Diode SwipeWas this blue screen also caused by selecting the settings shortcut while the swipe screen is moving? That shortcut works the same in every measurement function so I would expect that bluescreen to be there for each function.
After working in Diode function, loading a script and this message show up see DMM6500_remote
DMM are not controlled remotely, hereafter this.. see Error_5738_after_remote
DVM behaves strange so power cycle to get i running again.
At the company i work at we are currently migrating from the 'old' K2700 to the newer DAQ6510, for now in the K2700 emulation mode. IMHO these meters are really great to work with and really a step forward from the K2700. We use the RS232 option card and it was -almost- plug 'n play in our automated measurement setups.Yep! That's a bug! I'm very sorry you had to change your setup. It's AR61773, it will be fixed in the next firmware release. DI/O triggering on Pin 6 was initially not supported, so it never made it onto the testing plan. Later, engineering found out it was possible so the manual was updated to include it, but it still didn't get onto the test plan. So, an error made it through to the first release that means the DMM never starts listening for the trigger signal on that line.
There is one thing which did not migrated properly: external triggering using the Digital I/O connector in K2700 emulation mode. We had to (re)connect the trigger line to the BNC connector on te back of unit to make it work. The migration manual mentions the DIO DB-9 as a valid external trigger source, so @Keithley, are we missing something like an additional configuration? The setup worked flawless with a K2700 unit. Trigger is at 5V TTL level.
Hi analogRF
Serious question: how does the measurement current influence in circuit measurements? If there are multiple path for the current to go (in circuit), how does that change with measurement current (assuming linearity of all involved parts)? Differently asked, why is lower current better?
We always learned: never measure in circuit. You dont know where the current goes and can‘t trust the results.
Thanks,
Michael
34465A are really the best if low test current and also accurate AC measurements are important.
34465A are really the best if low test current and also accurate AC measurements are important.
Is it? I would guess most handheld meters uses about the same test current and much lower voltage voltage.
Another point is about how residual voltage (like thermal EMF) are handled: Some meter use a DC current and some measure both with and without current (so kind of low frequency AC). This can also have an effect on how it reacts in circuit. This feature can usually be turned off and may not be used in all ranges. An important point here is that the instructions tell, what way is used, so one knows about possible pitfalls. With the large display it might even be nice to show the used test current in the display.
analogRF:
You seem to have figured out your test current question yourself, but I don't think anyone answered you on the hold functionality. The DMM6500 doesn't have an exact equal to the 34461's probe hold feature, but it's easy enough to reproduce through scripting or a trigger model. Tell you what, if you get a DMM6500, I'll write something for you myself ;D
... There you can even adjust the threshold for triggering to read a new value when you probe again...
- The transformer hum a lot of people have mentioned is a manufacturing defect that affected some DMMs on the first run, it's been fixed in the later builds. You can contact your service center about getting it fixed, they should all be aware of the issue. I'm not sure the exact percentage of affected units, but that's why some people have said they didn't notice it. In general, please always reach to Tek service if you notice something that seems unreasonable about operation, mistakes do happen...
HighVoltage: A new firmware release is planned for later this year. It's a bit of a longer schedule than a typical new product firmware release as we have some special things planned for it.
The 10uA DC range do not have a 20% overload margin, it goes into overload at 10uA, not at 12uA
The 10uA DC range do not have a 20% overload margin, it goes into overload at 10uA, not at 12uA
I just checked my DMM with 1.0.02a and was able to measure up to the 20% overrange without issue. Is it possible you're measuring a noisy signal? If you have overranging spikes on your signal, the DMM will clip those readings and average the signal lower than it actually is. You could check this by manually ranging up to see if you get what you expect or using the Digitize current function to see if there are any spikes present.
I have been playing some more with the meter and got a couple of blue-screen while doing screen dumps:As in you saw blue screens while taking a screenshot? Do you have any other info on how you got them?
I also wonder what the purpose of the ENTER key is, I have not found any use for it.The ENTER key does behave like a touch most of the time, it selects whatever's highlighted on the screen and also enters values for pop-up dialogs. The DMM6500's frame comes from our SMUs which do have an encoder wheel, so it's also a bit of a hold-over from those instruments as well. I suppose I mainly use it for screenshots.
When doing math it would be nice if the secondary value could be the same value without any math applied.So you'd like a second buffer that records (for example) mV while the main buffer records %? That seems reasonable, I'm not sure if there's a reason that wasn't done besides no one thought to do it. I filed it as a requested feature, AR61921.
I have been playing some more with the meter and got a couple of blue-screen while doing screen dumps:As in you saw blue screens while taking a screenshot? Do you have any other info on how you got them?
When doing math it would be nice if the secondary value could be the same value without any math applied.So you'd like a second buffer that records (for example) mV while the main buffer records %? That seems reasonable, I'm not sure if there's a reason that wasn't done besides no one thought to do it. I filed it as a requested feature, AR61921.
Is there anything else on that flash drive? One of our co-ops remembered seeing a bug during development where the DMM would sometimes crash after having the flash drive inserted for some time. He believed it was related to what files were on the drive but doesn't know what file would've caused it since he erased the drive. We haven't seen anything like that since then, and there's not an obvious reason why any process that reads the flash drive would cause a crash, but it's something to go on. If there are other files on it, could you PM me a list of the file names and extensions (NOT the contents)?Not much more info, I was on the mains screens, it happened on the statistic (twice) and on the settings screen.I have been playing some more with the meter and got a couple of blue-screen while doing screen dumps:As in you saw blue screens while taking a screenshot? Do you have any other info on how you got them?
If there are other files on it, could you PM me a list of the file names and extensions (NOT the contents)?
I also wonder what the purpose of the ENTER key is, I have not found any use for it. On models with a encoder wheel it has purpose.
I would suspect that HOME and ENTER pressed simultaneously would save a screen shot to the USB thumb drive like on the DMM7510?
But besides this function, I have not used the ENTER knob on the DMM7510.
I bought a 6500 meter sometime ago and decided to do a review of it before it got stuffed into my test setup.
It is a fairly long review: http://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMKeithley%20DMM6500%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMKeithley%20DMM6500%20UK.html)
Is it possible to a small gap each three decades? Like on keysight instruments (notice a gap after "0.634": https://www.keysight.com/en/pdx-2891615-pn-34461A/digital-multimeter-6-digit-truevolt-dmm?cc=NL&lc=dut (https://www.keysight.com/en/pdx-2891615-pn-34461A/digital-multimeter-6-digit-truevolt-dmm?cc=NL&lc=dut) .On the main display: that is not possible right now, for the probe hold app: yes, I can add an option for small spacing in the next release.
I bought a 6500 meter sometime ago and decided to do a review of it before it got stuffed into my test setup.Thank you for the review! One thing I wanted to point out though, the KickStart software you talk about actually comes free when you purchase a 6500/6510 (this is true anywhere, not just in the US). You should contact whoever you purchased your DMM from and ask for your free KICKSTARTFL-BASE license. You may need to provide your unit's serial number too.
It is a fairly long review: http://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMKeithley%20DMM6500%20UK.html (http://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMKeithley%20DMM6500%20UK.html)
One thing I wanted to point out though, the KickStart software you talk about actually comes free when you purchase a 6500/6510 (this is true anywhere, not just in the US). You should contact whoever you purchased your DMM from and ask for your free KICKSTARTFL-BASE license. You may need to provide your unit's serial number too.
One thing I wanted to point out though, the KickStart software you talk about actually comes free when you purchase a 6500/6510 (this is true anywhere, not just in the US). You should contact whoever you purchased your DMM from and ask for your free KICKSTARTFL-BASE license. You may need to provide your unit's serial number too.Hi Brad,
I bought a DMM6500 from the local dealer here in Australia. Before I even have the meter in my hands (delivery due tomorrow), I have a email about the software in my emails.I have found no info on the web regarding this. On top of that - I've bought it via an agent, Farnel routed my request to their local office responsible, which, unfortunately, is in Russia and they do not seem to be eager to help in any case - "we do not support third parties"...
Just now, after registered my DMM6500 in Tektronix site, I got Kickstart 2 base license. (I bought DMM6500 in 5-23-2018)Thanks for the tip. Will try this approach.
I saw "Redeem" link after registering serial key, and I can generated license key using host id which got from Kickstart 2 ;D
Brad, Thank for good information.
Anyone having major issues with the auto range in 2w resistance?
I have a coil, measures ~8.6 ohms. If it’s in auto, the range relay is constantly cycling (10 times a second maybe). Manual range to 10 ohms and it’s fine, no over range. Now if I put it into auto, it is fine. If I remove a lead and reccomend it, back to the beginning.
It’s a 600 turn coil I use for checking clamp meters.
I will do that next week.
I wonder why software is not readily available for downloading to avoid all the trouble with contacting distributor, etc. If it needs to be tight to the device, a registration form can pop up during the first run.This has a lot to do with how our relations with distributors work, the software is really tied to the sale not the instrument. When you buy from a distributor, you don't interact with Keithley or Tektronix at all, so unless you buy 1000 of something, we won't find out who bought what. That's why the software promotion goes through the distributor.
Just now, after registered my DMM6500 in Tektronix site, I got Kickstart 2 base license. (I bought DMM6500 in 5-23-2018)So this is a separate promotion running right now where you can get KickStart 2 free for registering ANY currently compatible product (see the list here: https://www.tek.com/keithley-kickstart (https://www.tek.com/keithley-kickstart)), I think this runs through the end of the year, it just started last week or thereabouts. This is not the same thing as getting a license when you purchase a DMM6500 or 6510.
I saw "Redeem" link after registering serial key, and I can generated license key using host id which got from Kickstart 2 ;D
So I got my nice shiny new DMM6500, powered it up on the bench, connected it to my EDC Voltage display, was reading 100mV with the graph on the lower section of the screen, pressed menu and it blue screened.What do you mean connected to a EDC Voltage display? Like you were measuring voltage across one of those LED displays? If you see the blue screen again see if you can catch the code it gives, that can help us find any issues.
Haven't been able to get it to do it again since.
Fw 1.0.02a which I can't even see on the Tek website.
Any idea when the next FW will be released?
I don't want to be pessimistic, but it somewhat feels like beta test is done on the customer. Is this the new strategy at Keithley since they are part of Danaher group, to decrease time to market and development time?I understand your frustration, believe me, I don't like finding bugs in things I buy either. But, we never treat a release as a beta. Fortive (who split off from Danaher and owns us now) honestly doesn't have that much input on product development, their philosophy is luckily much more of a hands off approach. The thing is, Keithley itself is and has always been a small company. That approach is good for some reasons, we get tighter control over the scope of our products for example. But it also has its negatives in that large releases like the DMM6500/DAQ6510 can put a strain on our resources. Also, a lot of the bugs reported here are pretty obscure things that take a long time for us to even replicate. So I wouldn't say we treat releases like betas, but bugs do slip through.
Anyone having major issues with the auto range in 2w resistance?As evava said, that sounds like the inductance is causing an issue with autorange since ohm measurement uses a current source. Changing ranges disconnects the current source briefly, so if the coil isn't at equilibrium, I could see that inductive kickback causing problems with the circuitry. I would say the solution to that is leave it in manual range.
I have a coil, measures ~8.6 ohms. If it’s in auto, the range relay is constantly cycling (10 times a second maybe). Manual range to 10 ohms and it’s fine, no over range. Now if I put it into auto, it is fine. If I remove a lead and reccomend it, back to the beginning.
It’s a 600 turn coil I use for checking clamp meters.
Is there any way to rearrange the lower screens? I don’t need secondary temp measurement and I find myself using screen 1, 3 and 5 the most.
I contacted my supplied and asked them about the free Kickstarter offer, they would investigate and return. This is now one week ago and I have not gotten any response yet.I'd ask you to wait one more week and then message me with your details and I will look into either getting you a license another way or reaching out to your distributor on your behalf. In fact, maybe you should send a follow up email and tell them you've been talking with a Tektronix rep so they know you're serious. In the mean time, you have access to the trial version right? The trial version has no limitations other than the time limit.
I contacted my supplied and asked them about the free Kickstarter offer, they would investigate and return. This is now one week ago and I have not gotten any response yet.I'd ask you to wait one more week and then message me with your details and I will look into either getting you a license another way or reaching out to your distributor on your behalf. In fact, maybe you should send a follow up email and tell them you've been talking with a Tektronix rep so they know you're serious. In the mean time, you have access to the trial version right? The trial version has no limitations other than the time limit.
It doesn't have "dry circuit" voltage limits on the low ohm ranges, only the 7510 and the 2010 seem to have this option?The 3706A is another instrument with dry circuit measurement, I think that's the only 3 we offer with dedicated dry circuit modes. The DMM6500/DAQ6510 don't have the hardware required to do dry circuit testing, so that's a feature that can't be added in later (without a new model number). It was looked at, but the team decided the cost for adding that one feature would've been too great.
I was wondering if it could be added later in firmware, or in scripting, or whether it's an actual hardware limitation on the 6500.
Also that the instrument doesn't measure voltage and current simultaneously. It would have been really nice to be able to measure power, power factor, VA, VAR, even at some much lower resolution and accuracy than the main ADC.Not exactly what you really want I think, which would require 2 full ADCs, but the DMM6500 can measure power with the voltage ratio function like the other DMMs in its class. One of our engineers wrote a small script to simplify the process a bit, the script and the full description are here: https://forum.tek.com/viewtopic.php?f=617&t=141154,
The 3706A is another instrument with dry circuit measurement, I think that's the only 3 we offer with dedicated dry circuit modes. The DMM6500/DAQ6510 don't have the hardware required to do dry circuit testing, so that's a feature that can't be added in later (without a new model number). It was looked at, but the team decided the cost for adding that one feature would've been too great.Thank you for your answer.
In fact, that's exactly the type of thing TSP scripting was designed for! For your test setup, I think that should work fine, I'm sure you know more about the measurement than I do. Be sure to only use manual ranging and only ever switch in the dry resistance while the DMM is already measuring the 2 ohm resistor.The 3706A is another instrument with dry circuit measurement, I think that's the only 3 we offer with dedicated dry circuit modes. The DMM6500/DAQ6510 don't have the hardware required to do dry circuit testing, so that's a feature that can't be added in later (without a new model number). It was looked at, but the team decided the cost for adding that one feature would've been too great.As a compromise, is there anything which would prevent me from doing the following hack as a TSP script?
- Connect an external high stability 2 ohm in parallel with DUT (open would be 20mV on the 1 and 10 ohm ranges?)
- Measure the 2 ohm alone, store the value
- Deduce the DUT and display only the calculated value
One caveat is that pecision would become exponentially worse above 2 ohms, but that's all I need anyway for small signal relay contacts.
@nictinkers, thank you for the feedback! I'm sorry you don't care for a lot of the design, but really, we do take all the feedback we can get to heart.
Not exactly what you really want I think, which would require 2 full ADCs, but the DMM6500 can measure power with the voltage ratio function like the other DMMs in its class.
The Ratio function's sample rate is defined by NPLC or Aperture, so it has a minimum sample window of ~8 us like the rest of the box. The maximum reading rate is slightly slower than that for buffer and trigger overhead though. Just removing the delays in the script, setting a manual range, turning off auto delay, and setting the minimum NPLC, I measured noise at 200S/s, or ~5ms between readings. I would suspect you could speed it up slightly if make a trigger model to control when readings happen, as I've said before, the trigger model has a dedicated processor. I would have to dig deeper and talk to the firmware folks to find out what the limiting factor is here, it's not TSP though, I tried just reading the ratio function directly to defbuffer1 and it was about the same speed. I suspect the ratio function just isn't optimized for speed.Not exactly what you really want I think, which would require 2 full ADCs, but the DMM6500 can measure power with the voltage ratio function like the other DMMs in its class.
That's an interesting approach. I like that using an external shunt doesn't age the relays switching from voltage to current. Is there a way to fill a buffer of full ratio measurements at a high speed with a fixed sample frequency? (That is, like Digitise Voltage, but for full ratio.) Even if you couldn't hit 1 megasample/sec I'd assume you could get fast enough to get a low-distortion measurement for 50/60Hz signals. Then it would depend on whether the scripting language is then powerful enough to calculate AC power parameters from the buffer.
The 3706A is another instrument with dry circuit measurement, I think that's the only 3 we offer with dedicated dry circuit modes. The DMM6500/DAQ6510 don't have the hardware required to do dry circuit testing, so that's a feature that can't be added in later (without a new model number). It was looked at, but the team decided the cost for adding that one feature would've been too great.Thank you for your answer.
As a compromise, is there anything which would prevent me from doing the following hack as a TSP script?
- Connect an external high stability 2 ohm in parallel with DUT (open would be 20mV on the 1 and 10 ohm ranges?)
- Measure the 2 ohm alone, store the value
- Deduce the DUT and display only the calculated value
One caveat is that pecision would become exponentially worse above 2 ohms, but that's all I need anyway for small signal relay contacts.
Hi Brad, following up on this ratio topic, is there anyway to display the sense/Vs voltage onto the screen as well alongside the Vinput. Like the keysight is able in the video (2:09)Yeah, that's real easy. So how the ratio function works is it will store the ratio as "the reading". In a full buffer, it will also store the sense voltage in the "extra values" field. You can get the input voltage from those two values of course. Then you can just print those values as a string to the main screen. Or, you can use them in the power calculation like the first script does.
https://youtu.be/Y6xnLkiUMn8?t=129 (https://youtu.be/Y6xnLkiUMn8?t=129)
thanks!
Yeah, that's real easy.
Getting this DMM out of US customs is incredibly frustrating, is this paranoid crap a new thing?
It doesn't have "dry circuit" voltage limits on the low ohm ranges, only the 7510 and the 2010 seem to have this option?The 3706A is another instrument with dry circuit measurement, I think that's the only 3 we offer with dedicated dry circuit modes. The DMM6500/DAQ6510 don't have the hardware required to do dry circuit testing, so that's a feature that can't be added in later (without a new model number). It was looked at, but the team decided the cost for adding that one feature would've been too great.
I was wondering if it could be added later in firmware, or in scripting, or whether it's an actual hardware limitation on the 6500.
@nictinkers, thank you for the feedback! I'm sorry you don't care for a lot of the design, but really, we do take all the feedback we can get to heart.Also that the instrument doesn't measure voltage and current simultaneously. It would have been really nice to be able to measure power, power factor, VA, VAR, even at some much lower resolution and accuracy than the main ADC.Not exactly what you really want I think, which would require 2 full ADCs, but the DMM6500 can measure power with the voltage ratio function like the other DMMs in its class. One of our engineers wrote a small script to simplify the process a bit, the script and the full description are here: https://forum.tek.com/viewtopic.php?f=617&t=141154,
here's a video he's been putting together for it too:
https://youtu.be/oWTTrA20M0w
.....
The lowest resistance range is very noisy as expected, getting usable values that low requires slow integration and filtering. Averaging reaches the point of diminishing returns around 5 NPLC with 100x repeat filter. A hundred readings took a little over an hour. Doing 15 NLPC with 100x filter took 3 hours and provided very similar numbers. It's either the limit of the instrument or the limit of my crude methodology.
The limited effect of more filtering / longer averaging is a kind of weak point with quite some Keithley meters.
Getting this DMM out of US customs is incredibly frustrating, is this paranoid crap a new thing?Occasionally customs gets freaked out by test equipment. :-\ Nothing new as far as I'm aware.
thank you very much for the script, however there seem to be an issue with the readingbuffer, that every time the script is ran it seems to change the reading buffer to fill mode "once", even when i manually change the fill mode back to continuous on the dmm, so the script eventually stops itself. Is there anyway to change the fill mode to continuous in the script?. I noticed this aswell on the power measurement script aswellYeah, by default buffers are fill-once. Add these commands after the buffers have been created (so around line 15):
Thanks!!
readingBuffer.fillmode = buffer.FILL_CONTINUOUS
powerBuffer.fillmode = buffer.FILL_CONTINUOUSThe lowest resistance range is very noisy as expected, getting usable values that low requires slow integration and filtering. Averaging reaches the point of diminishing returns around 5 NPLC with 100x repeat filter. A hundred readings took a little over an hour. Doing 15 NLPC with 100x filter took 3 hours and provided very similar numbers. It's either the limit of the instrument or the limit of my crude methodology.There are diminishing returns for higher NPLC for most signals, and in fact higher NPLC may be less accurate. Page 203/5-58 in the reference manual discusses this a little bit. At higher NPLC, the measurement interval starts to cover a time frame where the DMM's internal drift starts to matter. Unless you expect a lot of power line noise, I would recommend 1-5 NPLC and averaging.
The interface is a lot of fun to use, there are still a few things that I hope will be adressed in a firmware update. Not a big deal, the yellow cursor have no reason to exist on the 6500 since there's no knob to control it (it seems to have been written more for the smus and the 7510) unless I didn't figure out how to move it around. It makes the behaviour of the enter key a bit random, it's whatever default was selected on the page.Interesting idea for the enter key to move between swipes... To remove the Functions swipe screen, you can use same command I gave to PTR_1275 earlier:
The swipe to change pages can be risky to operate, I sometimes press one of the functions by mistake, which wipe out the currently running acquisition. I would love to cycle the pages with the home key or something, maybe an option to remove the function page completely since there's already a dedicated function button to popup that menu. Maybe a toggle to prevent interrupting the measurement? A dialog yes/no for anything which would clear the buffer? Something like that. When running a trigger and count other than plain continuous, the content of the buffer is probably important.
display.delete(display.SCREEN_FUNCTIONS_SWIPE)display.create(display.SCREEN_HOME, display.OBJ_SWIPE, display.SCREEN_FUNCTIONS_SWIPE)display.SCREEN_FUNCTIONS_SWIPE
display.SCREEN_SETTINGS_SWIPE
display.SCREEN_SECONDARY_SWIPE
display.SCREEN_GRAPH_SWIPE
display.SCREEN_STATS_SWIPEThe very low resistance means measuring very low voltage and there thermal EMF effects at the "resistor" can also limit the accuracy. It might help to cover the resistor to protect it from air drafts. Thermal EMF combined with temperature fluctuations is one of the limiting factors for long time averaging. This is inside the meter and also at the DUT. For the copper resistor this could also be just a fluctuation of the resistance due to temperature changes.Also make sure the covering is a Faraday cage, stray electrical signals become a problem at the 1 ohm range. Really the 4-wire 1 ohm range is approaching the volt-nut territory so you'd have to start looking a the physical limitations of your measurement setup like you say.
I wish they enabled a 1000x repeat filter for a 1 NLPC reading, which would probably yield one least significant digit in the 1 ohm range. All other ranges are ultra stable and don't really need this. That 1 ohm range is already crazy impressive but it can still be improved in software even more.Improving the physical measurement setup would have a much larger impact than more averaging if you're talking about going from 100 to 1000 readings. Software can only do so much if you have too much noise. Even our electrometer has a 100 reading limit on averaging.
Ok thanks I just saw the discussion about this in the 7500 thread, I'll be following it there. The details are a bit above my degree of knowledge......
The lowest resistance range is very noisy as expected, getting usable values that low requires slow integration and filtering. Averaging reaches the point of diminishing returns around 5 NPLC with 100x repeat filter. A hundred readings took a little over an hour. Doing 15 NLPC with 100x filter took 3 hours and provided very similar numbers. It's either the limit of the instrument or the limit of my crude methodology.
The limited effect of more filtering / longer averaging is a kind of weak point with quite some Keithley meters. If think they should work on this, as it is very likely fixable in software and it effects not just the 6500. This seems to be an old problem (AFAIR I saw the odd low frequency noise already on an old 196 or 199) so I would no expect a fast solution. My hope would be more on finally finding out when developing a new 8 digit meter.
The DAQ6500 is more like a meter for fast measurements and only specified for 6 digits. So the relatively poor noise with 10-60 seconds averaging is not that significant for this type of meter. It's more the higher grade 7510 where this really hurts. The good thing is, chances are it gets better once averaging is much longer (e.g. 5 minutes).
The very low resistance means measuring very low voltage and there thermal EMF effects at the "resistor" can also limit the accuracy. It might help to cover the resistor to protect it from air drafts. Thermal EMF combined with temperature fluctuations is one of the limiting factors for long time averaging. This is inside the meter and also at the DUT. For the copper resistor this could also be just a fluctuation of the resistance due to temperature changes.
The user manual has the following information: At these rates (lowest noise region in graph), DMM6500 will make corrections for its own internal drift and...Most every DMM will do some delays/corrections/reference checks between each or every-so-many readings. Most of these are controlled by the autozero settings but there are some settling delays and reference checks that can't be changed because they're necessary to get a reading at all.
How is autocorrection related to aperture? How it work? And why is this only possible in a narrow range?
Quick question: How is your experience with continuity test on your DMM6500? I read earlier that there is a delay of some sort...There's no delay on continuity detection, but the sound is at least 1 second long - no matter how short was the connection. Which is a bit unusual, but, IMO even a little better solution - so you'll not miss it.
(cross-posting this here from the 7500/2450 bugs discusion)Hmm, I wasn't able to replicate this with my 1.0.02a. After step 7 I was able to create a buffer of size 6,500,000 without a problem. I also tried resizing defbuffer2 from 10 to 6,500,000 without issue. I did see that defbuffer1 appeared after resizing defbuffer2 though (after step 5), I filed a bug report for that.
Resizing buffers can sometimes cause memory fragmentation or memory leak.
Steps to reproduce on the 6500 (I have firmware 1.0.02a):
1. Reboot (power off, power on)
2. Go to Reading Buffers
--> The bug will appears if you do NOT touch the Buffer selector button and leave it at defbuffer1
3. Change capacity to 1M
4. Set buffer to defbuffer2
5. Change capacity to 10
--> Here the bug we see is that the buffer selection goes back to defbuffer1, but the capacity button is the value from defbuffer2
6. Set buffer to defbuffer1 (reselect it even if already selected)
7. Change capacity to 10
--> From this point, 1M is missing, it's not possible to either resize or create a buffer larger than 6M (7M is the max on the 6500). Until the next reboot.
In the mean time, it's simple to avoid the bug, always reselect the buffer before changing capacity.
Ah okay it's really fragmentation. At that point you can make 6.5M but you cannot make or resize to 7M anymore. Since the two default buffers cannot be deleted, they eventually end up in the way of creating a single maximum buffer. Resizing them left and right is moving them around so it's not easy to make clear repro steps.(cross-posting this here from the 7500/2450 bugs discusion)Hmm, I wasn't able to replicate this with my 1.0.02a. After step 7 I was able to create a buffer of size 6,500,000 without a problem. I also tried resizing defbuffer2 from 10 to 6,500,000 without issue. I did see that defbuffer1 appeared after resizing defbuffer2 though (after step 5), I filed a bug report for that.
Resizing buffers can sometimes cause memory fragmentation or memory leak.
Steps to reproduce on the 6500 (I have firmware 1.0.02a):
1. Reboot (power off, power on)
2. Go to Reading Buffers
--> The bug will appears if you do NOT touch the Buffer selector button and leave it at defbuffer1
3. Change capacity to 1M
4. Set buffer to defbuffer2
5. Change capacity to 10
--> Here the bug we see is that the buffer selection goes back to defbuffer1, but the capacity button is the value from defbuffer2
6. Set buffer to defbuffer1 (reselect it even if already selected)
7. Change capacity to 10
--> From this point, 1M is missing, it's not possible to either resize or create a buffer larger than 6M (7M is the max on the 6500). Until the next reboot.
In the mean time, it's simple to avoid the bug, always reselect the buffer before changing capacity.
Hmm, the error that gives you the maximum buffer size is I think supposed to get the maximum contiguous block size, and it looks like it does some times, but gets confused other times. These steps are really helpful, thanks! In the meantime, a System Reset or sending the reset() command will clear the volatile memory and return the buffers to their default sizes and positions in memory.Ah okay it's really fragmentation. At that point you can make 6.5M but you cannot make or resize to 7M anymore. Since the two default buffers cannot be deleted, they eventually end up in the way of creating a single maximum buffer. Resizing them left and right is moving them around so it's not easy to make clear repro steps.(cross-posting this here from the 7500/2450 bugs discusion)Hmm, I wasn't able to replicate this with my 1.0.02a. After step 7 I was able to create a buffer of size 6,500,000 without a problem. I also tried resizing defbuffer2 from 10 to 6,500,000 without issue. I did see that defbuffer1 appeared after resizing defbuffer2 though (after step 5), I filed a bug report for that.
Resizing buffers can sometimes cause memory fragmentation or memory leak.
Steps to reproduce on the 6500 (I have firmware 1.0.02a):
1. Reboot (power off, power on)
2. Go to Reading Buffers
--> The bug will appears if you do NOT touch the Buffer selector button and leave it at defbuffer1
3. Change capacity to 1M
4. Set buffer to defbuffer2
5. Change capacity to 10
--> Here the bug we see is that the buffer selection goes back to defbuffer1, but the capacity button is the value from defbuffer2
6. Set buffer to defbuffer1 (reselect it even if already selected)
7. Change capacity to 10
--> From this point, 1M is missing, it's not possible to either resize or create a buffer larger than 6M (7M is the max on the 6500). Until the next reboot.
In the mean time, it's simple to avoid the bug, always reselect the buffer before changing capacity.
...
8. Try to create a buffer with an invalid size of zero, it will display the message it must be between 10 and 7M
9. Try to create a 7M buffer and there's a more low level OOM error -225 and 4937
--> The biggest contiguous space seems to be 6.6M here
...
The maximum mentionned in the error message doesn't match the biggest contiguous space available, it indicates the entire free memory.
Would be useful to enable deleting the defaults to mitigate the fragmentation issue.
Would be better to have a defragmentation upon any buffer operations which would split the free space.
My history with a free Kickstarter license are hopefully near the end. Brad did send me to the tek license office and they kicked my over to an EU license office, but they where rather busy and it took two weeks to make a license code. I got it today. Now I just have to find out what a "Host ID" is. It is not the serial number of my meter and it must be something that can response to a "Lookup Unit" or be in a Tek database.Unfortunately the end of the year does get very busy for all our sales people as companies rush to use up their yearly budget. The Host ID is generated by the KickStart software after you install it. You can find it by opening KickStart (the trial version), clicking on the gear icon in the upper right, then click "Manage Licenses". The Host ID is at the top of that window. The Host ID is used with all Tek software and I think the license office people are more used to dealing with large companies buying hundreds of licenses, so they forget to explain how to find these simple things!
I did never get any further response from where I bought the meter, they (elfadistrelec) obvious do not provide the free Kickstarter license.
Unfortunately the end of the year does get very busy for all our sales people as companies rush to use up their yearly budget. The Host ID is generated by the KickStart software after you install it. You can find it by opening KickStart (the trial version), clicking on the gear icon in the upper right, then click "Manage Licenses". The Host ID is at the top of that window. The Host ID is used with all Tek software and I think the license office people are more used to dealing with large companies buying hundreds of licenses, so they forget to explain how to find these simple things!
Does anyone know, if you also get a free Kickstarter license with the purchase of a DMM7510?Yes, I see in my profile a link to generate a license for 7510. This is very nice. Thank you Brad O for this information. I would not have noticed it myself.
Does anyone know, if you also get a free Kickstarter license with the purchase of a DMM7510?No, the free license is only with the purchase of a DMM6500 or a DAQ6510. But, I think we still have a promotion running where when you register a new, compatible instrument on tek.com, you get a license. I think that's what MegaVolt is seeing.
Where do i need to set the resistance value of my Shunt to run the power script correctly? Do i have to edit the script with some program on windows or from the instrument itself?The script is very simple so you can't edit it from the box itself, you need to a separate computer. Our own IDE code editor for TSP is called Test Script Builder, you can find it on our website (https://www.tek.com/software/TestScriptBuilder/KTS-850J02 (https://www.tek.com/software/TestScriptBuilder/KTS-850J02)). But, TSP scripts are plain text and can be edited with any basic text editor. The relevant line for the setting the Shunt resistor value is line 10: "shuntValue = 0.91 --ohms"
Does anyone know, if you also get a free Kickstarter license with the purchase of a DMM7510?No, the free license is only with the purchase of a DMM6500 or a DAQ6510. But, I think we still have a promotion running where when you register a new, compatible instrument on tek.com, you get a license. I think that's what MegaVolt is seeing.Where do i need to set the resistance value of my Shunt to run the power script correctly? Do i have to edit the script with some program on windows or from the instrument itself?The script is very simple so you can't edit it from the box itself, you need to a separate computer. Our own IDE code editor for TSP is called Test Script Builder, you can find it on our website (https://www.tek.com/software/TestScriptBuilder/KTS-850J02 (https://www.tek.com/software/TestScriptBuilder/KTS-850J02)). But, TSP scripts are plain text and can be edited with any basic text editor. The relevant line for the setting the Shunt resistor value is line 10: "shuntValue = 0.91 --ohms"
Thanks for the info Brad, I was able to set the value of my shunt resistor.What exactly is going wrong? Can you attach a schematic of your connections?
I'm still having issues with the connections to measure power though.
I am trying to measure the power draw from a DC power supply by using a shunt resistor in series between the load and the PSU and then measure the voltage drop across the resistor but that isn't working.
Is my method flawed? P=VI.
V is measured at the input terminals (12V DC) and I is automatically calculated by the program since the Voltage drop across the shunt is being measured by the sense terminals and the shunt's resistance is known :-//
Please tell me what I'm doing wrong here.
Thanks for the info Brad, I was able to set the value of my shunt resistor.What exactly is going wrong? Can you attach a schematic of your connections?
I'm still having issues with the connections to measure power though.
I am trying to measure the power draw from a DC power supply by using a shunt resistor in series between the load and the PSU and then measure the voltage drop across the resistor but that isn't working.
Is my method flawed? P=VI.
V is measured at the input terminals (12V DC) and I is automatically calculated by the program since the Voltage drop across the shunt is being measured by the sense terminals and the shunt's resistance is known :-//
Please tell me what I'm doing wrong here.
You can also troubleshoot by looking at the raw data at MENU > Reading Table and selecting the readingBuffer. The current is the Extra column divided by the shunt resistor value. The voltage is the Reading column times the Extra column, then P=VI. The script does exactly this calculation.
I'm not good at drawing schematics, could you please show me the right way to make such a connection and I will do the same from my end.?
Since the DMM6500 can take simultaneous readings of current and voltage is there some script to measure power other than using a shunt resistor?The device cannot measure current and voltage simultaneously. Voltage only or current only. At the same time spending a relay resource.
Since the DMM6500 can take simultaneous readings of current and voltage is there some script to measure power other than using a shunt resistor?The device cannot measure current and voltage simultaneously. Voltage only or current only. At the same time spending a relay resource.
How was I able to measure the DC voltage using the rear ports and DC current as a secondary measurement then?I could be wrong. I have 7510 and maybe their behavior is somewhat different.
There were no relays switching between the two modes :-//
I don't understand something in the DC Current Accuracy specs (page 10). For 100mA caliber, I see that error is 0.01 + 0.03 within 24h after cal, and 0.015 + 0.005 after 90 days. Why is the range error so high (0.03% of 100mA = 30µA !) and is reduced after 90 days (0.005% = 5µA) ?Yeah I noticed that too, considering the rest of the table I'm assuming it's a typo, and should be 0.003
MegaVolt is right, the DMM6500 can't measure Voltage and Current simultaneously, but you might not always hear relays clicking. There are a couple range combinations that don't require a relay switch, typically because the the signal paths use the same range resistors. 10V and 1A is an example combo, but there are a few others. This behavior was the same for the 7510 as far as I know, but the range combinations might be different.Since the DMM6500 can take simultaneous readings of current and voltage is there some script to measure power other than using a shunt resistor?The device cannot measure current and voltage simultaneously. Voltage only or current only. At the same time spending a relay resource.
How was I able to measure the DC voltage using the rear ports and DC current as a secondary measurement then?
There were no relays switching between the two modes :-//
Hi everybody,You're right with the typical reading rate, but as an aside, the 4.5 digit is just the spec'd accuracy. You can command the instrument to return 6.5 digits at the maximum sample rate if you wanted.
I'm looking since several month for a reliable mean to measure current profiles on low power devices, like IoT sensors or any othr projects with low idle current and peaks working currents. If possible with a cost < 1000 euros.
When I saw the DMM6500 I thought my problem would be solved, through the high frequency sampling, that would ease measurements of low duration events (for example active current duration of 50µs with 500µs sleep.
But when I read the full specs, I see that :
- I can use normal measurement mode up to 20.6ksamples / secs with 4.5" resolution ("Typical Reading rates, DC function" at page 17, and "DC Current noise Charac" at page 10
- if I use Digitizing feature, according to table at page 16, I can get only 8 ENB at 50kHz sampling (400µA for 100mA range), and resolution is not specified after 50ksps. That's strange...Or may I misunderstand the 1/10/50kHz indication in the table ?
I don't understand something in the DC Current Accuracy specs (page 10). For 100mA caliber, I see that error is 0.01 + 0.03 within 24h after cal, and 0.015 + 0.005 after 90 days. Why is the range error so high (0.03% of 100mA = 30µA !) and is reduced after 90 days (0.005% = 5µA) ?
Thanks
Aurelien
you might not always hear relays clicking. There are a couple range combinations that don't require a relay switch, typically because the the signal paths use the same range resistors. 10V and 1A is an example combo, but there are a few others. This behavior was the same for the 7510 as far as I know, but the range combinations might be different.Maybe there is some opportunity to tell us about the technical details of the device 7510 and 6510?
What exactly are you trying to do? That's a lot of info you're asking for... Like for DCV Bandwidth: it varies depending on a handful of settings and isn't spec'd, so if you tell me why you want it or how you'll use the info, I can estimate a figure for you. For something like a block diagram, what are you looking to find?you might not always hear relays clicking. There are a couple range combinations that don't require a relay switch, typically because the the signal paths use the same range resistors. 10V and 1A is an example combo, but there are a few others. This behavior was the same for the 7510 as far as I know, but the range combinations might be different.Maybe there is some opportunity to tell us about the technical details of the device 7510 and 6510?
Information is not enough. To know when the relay will click, and when not.
What is the input bandwidth for DCV.
Is it possible to somehow find out the exact values of current shunts. The device itself must know them?
How are the processors, trigger connected inside ...
And any other information on the device. Scheme. Block diagram Sketches.
Please.
Thank you Brad, that helps !Yes, but when ordering, please make sure they include KickStart in your quote, it should be quoted as $0 though or have a 100% discount applied. That will save you from having to message me for help later :D.
Looks like santa will be nice this year :)
Just another question about KickStart licencing. I've read on this topic that the licence was included when ordering a DMM6500. I've seen some screenshots with "Host ID" request. Is there any limitation on number of PC that can use the licence for one multimeter ? I mean : if I install the licence on my current PC, will have to buy a new licence when I will replace my PC by a new one ? I know that this kind of host limited protection is used for others kinds of licences, but what about KickStart ?
What exactly are you trying to do? That's a lot of info you're asking for... Like for DCV Bandwidth: it varies depending on a handful of settings and isn't spec'd, so if you tell me why you want it or how you'll use the info, I can estimate a figure for you. For something like a block diagram, what are you looking to find?I am an engineer old school.
Yes, but when ordering, please make sure they include KickStart in your quote, it should be quoted as $0 though or have a 100% discount applied. That will save you from having to message me for help later :D.I guess you will receive an email because I cannot add licence on distributor like RS/Farnell, and when I try to set a quote on your website for the DMM6500, the Kickstart floating licence is sold at 214€ (I received email confirmation for this price !).....
What exactly are you trying to do? That's a lot of info you're asking for... Like for DCV Bandwidth: it varies depending on a handful of settings and isn't spec'd, so if you tell me why you want it or how you'll use the info, I can estimate a figure for you. For something like a block diagram, what are you looking to find?I am an engineer old school.
I used to understand the device with which I work. It is very difficult for me to work with a black box which I do not understand.
For example, I measure the noise of a low-noise power source. And I want to know the band of the device as the measured noise level depends on it. And I want to have this answer in my head and not ask the engineer Keithley every time.
Or I do not want to hear the switching of relyushek in double dimensions. For example, I crossed out this mode for myself from the applicable. And it turns out that under certain conditions I can use it.
Those. I really want to work with the device myself without distracting Keythley engineers from work.
Moreover, the programmers received detailed instructions for working with the device for 1000 pages. And engineers have nothing but a very modest verbal description which is difficult to understand :(
I am an engineer old school.Oh well in that case: I gathered some info from the design engineers. We're really quite happy to share details, but it helps us if you're specific in what you want to know and why you want to know it. I think I addressed all the questions below:
To know when the relay will click, and when not.The relay positions aren't documented right now so I just found these by trial and error. I'll see about making a cohesive table for this later, I know reading it in text form is complicated. If you go into or out of the following functions/ranges, you will hear a relay actuate. These are only for Voltage, current, and ohms. The other functions reuse these relays.
What is the input bandwidth for DCV.From a purely hardware perspective up to but not including the ADC: up to hundreds of kHz to support the DCV digitizer function for 10V and less ranges. 100V and 1000V ranges a lot less than that due to internal 10Meg divider. Generally similar to digitzer specs.
Is it possible to somehow find out the exact values of current shunts. The device itself must know them?The Nominal values are copied here from the specifications: 10 μA-10 kΩ; 100 μA-1 kΩ; 1 mA-100 Ω; 10 mA-10 Ω; 100 mA-1 Ω; 1 A-100 mΩ; 3 A-100 mΩ; 10 A-5 mΩ. These have a 1% tolerance. The exact values are never measurable by the DMM or otherwise because of the path resistances and connections inherent to the DMM (unless you open the box and cut the resistors out).
How are the processors, trigger connected inside ...The processors/trigger/measurement relationship is too complicated to document here and changes depending on the specifics of how you're measuring. Is there some case you had in mind? We want to try and answer your question, but we could make hundreds of different block diagrams about the box.
And any other information on the device. Scheme. Block diagram Sketches.
the actual data rate / time spacingDo you mean the flow of data out of the box? Or the spacing of measurements? Typical reading rates out of the box for the best case scenarios are given in the datasheet, they'll go down from there. Spacing of measurements are controlled by things like autozero, multiphase measurements (so like 4-wire ohms, DCV ratio, things where one measurement really takes more than one measurement), line sync, aperture, autoranging, autodelay, etc. I don't think it's practical or possible to list all the possible combinations and the spacing for each function.
actual aperture and measurement sequence in the Ohms modesThe aperture for ohms modes is settable like in any other function, unless you meant something else? The measurement sequence is different depending on what range you have selected (the 10M and 100M range use a ratiometric method, described starting on page 204/5-59 of the manual) and certain measure settings like offset compensation and open lead detection add extra phases before the measurements take place. Depending on your particular settings, the measurement sequence gets up to 7 phases long for 4-wire ohms.
Also for the digital filtering used in the meter, it would be nice to know about the exact filter function, as this effects noise estimates from the readings. With filtering use the simple std. deviation values calculated have to be taken with a grain of salt - as the raw data may be correlated."Filter" Filtering is applied by the digital process after calibration is applied to the readings. There are two different types of filtering that are detailed on page 198/5-53 of the manual, plus Hybrid filtering which is in the 1.0.01f firmware release notes or I wrote about it earlier in this thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg1768589/#msg1768589 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg1768589/#msg1768589)). All this "post-processing" follows an order of operations on page 215/5-70, I attached an image of it too (which is actually a bit misleading, going to the display and the buffer actually happen simultaneously, I put a bug report in for that).
Not knowing such details might lead to problems like not always waiting long enough for settling. This could lead to problems like the odd out-layers once every 160 readings seen in some cases - though in this case more like a problem for the DMM internal software.You can definitely configure the box so that the DMM won't return settled measurements. The power up default enables Autodelay which ensures settling in most cases. The times added by autodelay are given starting on page 189/5-44 of the manual. If you have an atypical setup, like really long cables or circuits, you may need to add manual delays.
MegaVolt is right, the DMM6500 can't measure Voltage and Current simultaneously, but you might not always hear relays clicking. There are a couple range combinations that don't require a relay switch, typically because the the signal paths use the same range resistors. 10V and 1A is an example combo, but there are a few others. This behavior was the same for the 7510 as far as I know, but the range combinations might be different.Since the DMM6500 can take simultaneous readings of current and voltage is there some script to measure power other than using a shunt resistor?The device cannot measure current and voltage simultaneously. Voltage only or current only. At the same time spending a relay resource.
How was I able to measure the DC voltage using the rear ports and DC current as a secondary measurement then?
There were no relays switching between the two modes :-//
I noticed that but for the ranges where a simultaneous non-relay switching measurement, is there a script that can multiply the current and voltage and give me a power reading instead of using a shunt resistor and the voltage ratio method?
Oh well in that case: I gathered some info from the design engineers. We're really quite happy to share details, but it helps us if you're specific in what you want to know and why you want to know it. I think I addressed all the questions below:Many thanks to Brad O for the information gathered.
Does this mean that I must include an external anti-aliasing filter to eliminate the effect of spectrum overlap. And at the same time reduce the input noise level?What is the input bandwidth for DCV.From a purely hardware perspective up to but not including the ADC: up to hundreds of kHz to support the DCV digitizer function for 10V and less ranges. 100V and 1000V ranges a lot less than that due to internal 10Meg divider. Generally similar to digitzer specs.
For example, I absolutely do not understand how I can get all the signal samples through the remote interface. Not one buffer. Namely, all data without gaps. I do not understand how the data pass. How does screen information or network communication affect information gathering? How do I communicate on the network so as not to interfere with the measurements. I do not understand how I should set up triggers and buffers so that the data is not lost and at the same time I had time to read them over the network.How are the processors, trigger connected inside ...The processors/trigger/measurement relationship is too complicated to document here and changes depending on the specifics of how you're measuring. Is there some case you had in mind? We want to try and answer your question, but we could make hundreds of different block diagrams about the box.
And any other information on the device. Scheme. Block diagram Sketches.
Some of the internal pics for DMM6500 you can find here (https://xdevs.com/review/dmm6500/#teardown). Perhaps they can shed some more light on how it's designed and working.Thanks for the link. But I still do not know how to reverse engineer in photography :)
I noticed that but for the ranges where a simultaneous non-relay switching measurement, is there a script that can multiply the current and voltage and give me a power reading instead of using a shunt resistor and the voltage ratio method?Not that I know of right now, but there could be! I will see about making you a simple version in a little while that adapts the shunt method script.
Are there are plans to release calibration/service manual for DMM6500? I'd be interested to see the calibration points for ACV.The calibration values are listed in the back of Reference Manual, Appendix C. There is also a full calibration manual though over at https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-multimeter-0 (https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-multimeter-0) that describes the process to actually do the adjustments. It's in general very similar to the DMM7510 procedure.
Of course!Oh well in that case: I gathered some info from the design engineers. We're really quite happy to share details, but it helps us if you're specific in what you want to know and why you want to know it. I think I addressed all the questions below:Many thanks to Brad O for the information gathered.
Then if you do not mind, I will continue to ask questions.
For digitize functions, there is a high frequency low pass filter ahead of the ADC but it is not sufficient (with respect to the noise floor) to eliminate all alias effects for a signal with content >500kHz. Whether or not that matters to your measurement depends on what the signal looks like (FFT-wise).QuoteDoes this mean that I must include an external anti-aliasing filter to eliminate the effect of spectrum overlap. And at the same time reduce the input noise level?What is the input bandwidth for DCV.From a purely hardware perspective up to but not including the ADC: up to hundreds of kHz to support the DCV digitizer function for 10V and less ranges. 100V and 1000V ranges a lot less than that due to internal 10Meg divider. Generally similar to digitzer specs.
It is definitely possible for the instrument to take data faster than it can transmit. No remote interface has an actual "streaming" option (that is possible with KickStart, though it still isn't magically faster than the bus). What interface are you trying to use? (LAN/USB/GPIB?) What measurement function are you using? What kind of sample rate are you trying to use?QuoteFor example, I absolutely do not understand how I can get all the signal samples through the remote interface. Not one buffer. Namely, all data without gaps. I do not understand how the data pass. How does screen information or network communication affect information gathering? How do I communicate on the network so as not to interfere with the measurements. I do not understand how I should set up triggers and buffers so that the data is not lost and at the same time I had time to read them over the network.How are the processors, trigger connected inside ...The processors/trigger/measurement relationship is too complicated to document here and changes depending on the specifics of how you're measuring. Is there some case you had in mind? We want to try and answer your question, but we could make hundreds of different block diagrams about the box.
And any other information on the device. Scheme. Block diagram Sketches.
Although I am very interested in the type of resistor 10 MΩ and the method of its connection to the input.The 10MOhm resistor is custom and isn't available on the market. It's designed to support the temperature coefficient and time drift of the DC specs for the 100V and 1000V ranges. It connects from HI to LO and is switched on with a low leakage analog switch when required. Input measurements are divided by 100 through it.
For digitize functions, there is a high frequency low pass filter ahead of the ADC but it is not sufficient (with respect to the noise floor) to eliminate all alias effects for a signal with content >500kHz. Whether or not that matters to your measurement depends on what the signal looks like (FFT-wise).Can you show the graph of the frequency response of the filter? So that I can make decisions about the need for additional filtering?
It is definitely possible for the instrument to take data faster than it can transmit. No remote interface has an actual "streaming" option (that is possible with KickStart, though it still isn't magically faster than the bus). What interface are you trying to use? (LAN/USB/GPIB?) What measurement function are you using? What kind of sample rate are you trying to use?
However nearly 1 ms would be relatively long.I think so too.
There may be some extra adjustment measurements (e.g. AC scale, temperature etc. ) going on too. For a more sigma delta like ADC there can be some time for the "soft" start of the aperture window.This is not AZ. This delay is after each measurement. But I think it's worth trying without AZ.
In principle an SD like ADC could get away without an extra delay in an non AZ mode, if slight overlap / correlation is accepted.How can I do that?
Another possible reason maybe time for data transfer from the ADC to the display / output part of the meter.Then the maximum operating frequency would be 1 kHz. And the device works without problems at 1 MHz.
Are these directly read delays (e.g. from the time stamp in the data file) or are these number only calculated back from the data rate ?time stamp in the data file
Disable temperature correction
Before you start your adjustment, you must turn off temperature correction. Run the following commands to turn off temperature correction.
cal.adjust.step.setup("TC_EN")
cal.adjust.step.execute("TC_EN", 0)
Impedance is forced to 10M by default to prevent apparent errors like "My DMM is measuring 10V with nothing connected", which our support engineers used to get many, many calls about.
I calculated the time for one countdown for digitalization mode V.I haven't seen any problem filling a 7M buffer in exactly 7 seconds.
1 KS / s - 924 Hz
10 KS / s - 5506 Hz
100 KS / s - 11096 Hz
1 MS / s - 13199 Hz
Tell me who knows what a set of settings should be to see 1 MS / s?
I haven't seen any problem filling a 7M buffer in exactly 7 seconds.Please tell me your settings? I made measurements in the internal buffer.
You can't capture in real-time at that speed through any external link. You have to use a large buffer and dump it afterward.
I guess it starts making sense when you have a trigger model running instead of auto triggering, because between each capture operation there's a lot of code to run. I find it logical the samples per seconds are stable only within the capture count.Unfortunately, I still do not quite understand where the trigger is connected and how it works.
It's a bit like a scope's segmented memory, the rate of triggering is not the same as the ADC rate.
It's because it cannot run the trigger script a million times per second. To get a guaranteed timing there's no way around setting the size of your segments.For the digitizing V mode, is it possible to somehow disable the trigger and possibly the screen.
You mean continuously overwriting itself? It doesn't look like it, not at 1MS/s.It's because it cannot run the trigger script a million times per second. To get a guaranteed timing there's no way around setting the size of your segments.For the digitizing V mode, is it possible to somehow disable the trigger and possibly the screen.
Are there any other ways to get continuous data in the buffer? Particularly interested in DCV mode.
Is there somewhere a tutorial on setting up triggers and writing scripts?
You mean continuously overwriting itself? It doesn't look like it, not at 1MS/s.Not necessarily yourself. One solution I see is the alternate filling of two buffers. But I am afraid that it is impossible to configure the device so that it does not lose data when switching from one buffer to another.
Not sure how it works exactly, but the buffer needs to be processed in software after each acquisition (it says "processing backlog" if it cannot do it realtime). So in very high speed digitizing modes it cannot be a free running loop regardless of the size. In fact when I set a massive buffer it automatically disable the continuous trigger, which is fine considering this is a pretty big operation to process millions of samples, calculating averages and std deviation, etc... But yeah it would have been nice to sample continuously and process only when stopping.It amazes me that the work of calculating the mean and standard deviation is not assigned to the FPGA. As well as other mathematical operations.
The trigger interface is like a visual block programming directly on the device, relatively easy when you know what you're trying to accomplish with it, much more powerful than the hard coded things I'm used to. I haven't read the manual yet I'm still playing around.I'm trying to understand what he can. And until I found a textbook with pictures for dummies :)
MikeP:
Probably you set the digitize Count to 1 and went into continuous trigger mode? When you do that, triggering is handled by the display processor, so when that processor gets busy it will stop triggering and catch up with whatever else it's being told to do (like update the graph image). That's where those gaps in data are coming from. A couple ways around this come to mind:
- Set a higher count to capture all the data you need. Triggering within a Count set is handled by a separate processor that won't get caught up in display stuff, you also won't see the lines connecting separate groups of data that may be a little confusing. The graph's smart scaling in x will by default show you the latest group of readings.
- Use a trigger model. Triggering from a trigger model is also handled by a separate processor and a very simple model can allow continuous data capture. I'm attaching a script (change the .txt to .tsp to use it) where the last lines set up a trigger model that starts a digitize voltage measurement (that continues infinitely) and then stops the measurement when the TRIGGER key is pressed. The display might lag behind slightly depending on your other settings, but there won't be any gaps in the data. If you digitize at a really high rate then you may see a pop-up like "Processing reading backlog...". That message means the display processor needs to catch up with the data buffer and it will stop other activities until it catches up, usually no more than a second or two.
3. Measurement time for 10 NPLC have an exponential beginning?
Was the instrument warmed up?On the graph, time, not voltage.
Was the source stable?
They behave very differently, but after about 2 min, they are almost completely warmed up.I watched a warming 7510 at a range of 0.1V with shorted inputs. Oscillations are established in 1.5 hours as indicated in the specification.
Yes, I am not saying the instruments are warmed up to metrology specs after 2 min !Yes, no doubt they are very quickly ready to work. And they also enter the specification very quickly.
But it is impressive, how fast these two Keithley instruments warm up in comparison to other brands.
Can you show the graph of the frequency response of the filter? So that I can make decisions about the need for additional filtering?I can try making a graph next if this doesn't answer your questions but I think I'd have to order some equipment to make a good one. This answer comes from the hardware team:
It became clear about the digitizing V mode.
How should I set up the device so that after filling in one buffer, it will without a break begin to fill the next buffer?I don't think this is possible and I'm not sure why you would want to do this, wouldn't it be better to set one buffer to the maximum size than have 2 half size buffers? Do you want all the data you're taking or are you aggregating it in some way? If you're processing, it might be possible to use a TSP script. If you want all the readings directly, you're limited by the bus speeds.
Brad O.Ah it looks like the web team assigned it as a User manual, I think that's a mistake. I filed a bug report to have them update the classification, I fully understand your confusion. I'm also working with the web team to improve the way tek.com handles documents like these, you're not the only one to have problems finding things.
Thanks for manual, interesting read! We volt-nuts always like to know what more equipment we need to buy for calibrations :)
I missed it before, because Tek site ain't too much friendly for old-school folk. Clicked DMM6500 -> Manuals -> Service = nothing, so I assumed it's not published yet.
After a good warmup, I had both, the DMM7510 and the DMM6500 on the same 10V source in parallel.That does look strange and I don't like it. I'll try to reproduce it after the Holidays. Was your source a custom 10V reference? I would expect popcorn noise to have a shorter duration but it's a possibility.
Both instruments on 5 NPLC, 10 MOhm, AutoZero ON
Why would I get such a jump in the middle of the DMM6500 graph?
Also interesting (funny):This was specifically done for the DAQ6510, but I think the change to [h:m:s] is slated to go in the next 7510 firmware too. I think it makes a lot more sense than kiloseconds.
The DMM6500 counts the x-axis with [h:m:s] and the DMM7500 in [ks]
Both graphs for the 7510 and 6500 show a problem with the scaling. There is no way to tel the actual scale. I know this a rather extreme case, but the labeling could get some improvement. Maybe make sure the ticks are not fixed pixel width but something like a 1-2-5-10 sequence in real voltage / current and than somewhere also show the distance. So a little like with scopes.The firmware team is looking into ways to improve labeling when you have a super stable signal like that. I don't know where they are in that process, but that's on the docket to be addressed.
If you want the minimum spacing between each reading: disable autoranging and autozero, and set a count or use a trigger model (Setting a count is the easiest).It's because it cannot run the trigger script a million times per second. To get a guaranteed timing there's no way around setting the size of your segments.For the digitizing V mode, is it possible to somehow disable the trigger and possibly the screen.
Are there any other ways to get continuous data in the buffer? Particularly interested in DCV mode.
Is there somewhere a tutorial on setting up triggers and writing scripts?
After a good warmup, I had both, the DMM7510 and the DMM6500 on the same 10V source in parallel.That does look strange and I don't like it. I'll try to reproduce it after the Holidays. Was your source a custom 10V reference? I would expect popcorn noise to have a shorter duration but it's a possibility.
Both instruments on 5 NPLC, 10 MOhm, AutoZero ON
Why would I get such a jump in the middle of the DMM6500 graph?
...
This problem is repeatable, at least on my 6500 !
Just the jump is repeatable it happens randomly just once in a while....
This problem is repeatable, at least on my 6500 !
How repeatable ? I would be very surprised if the jumps would occur at the same time again - that would be an unlikely software problem.
For popcorn noise one can expect the same size jumps (for a given meter), but at different times. Other meters could have smaller (or larger) jumps of less frequent ones.
HighVoltage
Thanks for your experiment. Can you make this measurement with 1NPLC for both DMM's also? Can you show statistical data for all experiments? Thanks again.
I can try making a graph next if this doesn't answer your questions but I think I'd have to order some equipment to make a good one. This answer comes from the hardware team:This answer is quite enough. No need to purchase equipment.
The filter can be modelled as a simple low pass filter with a time constant of ~ 150ns putting the transition at around 1MHz. Investigate what that means to your signal input being digitized. There are higher poles also between 5MHz and 50Mhz but the upper limit response is dominated by the ~ 1MHz.
Suggestions for best added anti-alias additional filtering to really kill the artifacts.Thank.
I don't think this is possible and I'm not sure why you would want to do this, wouldn't it be better to set one buffer to the maximum size than have 2 half size buffers? Do you want all the data you're taking or are you aggregating it in some way? If you're processing, it might be possible to use a TSP script. If you want all the readings directly, you're limited by the bus speeds.
If you want the minimum spacing between each reading: disable autoranging and autozero, and set a count or use a trigger model (Setting a count is the easiest). Here's a small walk through on how to use the trigger model to have equal spacing between your measurements, where the spacing you want isn't necessarily the minimum. There's an image of the final model attached.Thank you so much for this information. I will definitely try this example.
The AD7982 is 18 Bits only - so the jitter requirement would be lower.I talked about the ADC multislope.
Here's a small walk through on how to use the trigger model to have equal spacing between your measurements, where the spacing you want isn't necessarily the minimum.I checked this model. Unfortunately, it has the same 1 μs jitter.
Still 1 µs jitter would be pretty high, though in most cases not a problem, as the relevant frequencies are low (e.g. <= 120 Hz).Yes, it seems so.
There should also be a way to get a constant sampling rate with AZ mode active. It may not be that fast (e.g. sampling rate near 24/29 Hz) but ideally should allow for a reasonable constant rate.Yes it is. But it will be necessary to lower the sampling rate 3 times. And the time of data collection will increase 3 times. :(
There is one thing which did not migrated properly: external triggering using the Digital I/O connector in K2700 emulation mode. We had to (re)connect the trigger line to the BNC connector on te back of unit to make it work.I see what you're talking about, I couldn't get it to work either. I know 2700 emulation was tested pretty extensively so I'm not sure if there's a problem with the manual or the emulation mode. The person who tested it is out this week, so I'll get back to you next week with an update. I'm glad you were able to get your triggering to work over BNC though!
HighVoltage
Thanks for your experiment. Can you make this measurement with 1NPLC for both DMM's also? Can you show statistical data for all experiments? Thanks again.
Here you go.
Both instruments are parallel on a Fluke 731B
Both instruments are on 1 NPLC and no Filter
I is nice to see how well both instruments agree on the 10V value of my source.
Some scripting tips inside :-+Thank. Examples are good.
I didn't see any DMM6500 Reference Manual in the moment, as it is there for the DMM7510.
The only command-, syntax-reference to the DMM6500 TSP (-TekVISA) is encapsulated as html-xml in Win-TextScriptBuilder. :-//
Don't know if i be allowed to publish the extracted web help as zip here in the forum (asking Brad-O)?
Don't know if i be allowed to publish the extracted web help as zip here in the forum (asking Brad-O)?That would be very convenient. I only use TSB to read help :)))
https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-bench-system-0 (https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-bench-system-0)Ah, ok, thanks.
Hello MikeP,This is good news. I was interested in the REAL and PRACTICAL difference in PLC - settings. Thanks.
I can't see actually no expressive difference between measuring a ltz1000 reference with lm399 based dmm6500 with 5 or 10 NLPC. The result is the same as shown, setting isn't more accurate. Also filtering do show everything else than more the truth, because we try to measure the missing 7th digit with a higher noisy dmm as the reference itself. ;)
Don't know if i be allowed to publish the extracted web help as zip here in the forum (asking Brad-O)?That would be very convenient. I only use TSB to read help :)))
If it's not difficult for you to make me 7510 :) please.
So, i believe, tell me, no need to explicide extract that 7510 file. ;-);)
I try to get uniform readings in Digitize_V mode.Are those DigiV measurements with the 7510 or 6500?
The best I could get looks like this. But there are a number of strange regular artifacts. The main number of readings has a deviation of no more than 1 ns. But a number of calculations following about 100 counts have a larger deviation of up to 40 ns. Single emissions up to 120 ns.
On the graphs on the X axis time. On the Y axis, the deviation of the duration of 1 measurement from the ideal. In this case, from 100 μs.
Update:The hyperlinks in the manual are working fine for me with Adobe Acrobat, is anyone else have trouble? Try downloading directly from Tek.com...
As i see now, there is a big difference between Reference Manual 7510 and Reference Manual 6500:So, the use of the above mentioned, extracted, intern correct linked HTML-Helpfile-Doc's for workflow TSP programming make sense, till the Reference Manual 6500 is corrected.
- the Links in the 6500 Manual are not working,
(DMM6500-901-01 Rev. A / April 2018)- the Links in the 7510 Manual do!
That was easy :)Awesome! Doubly impressive since we haven't publicly documented that! We are working on documentation for the apps to release sometime later this year, the commands are still very fluid as we make some apps ourselves and figure out how we'd like the commands to work. If you have some ideas for what you'd like to do with the interface could you send them along to me? We're trying to put together a "wish list" of apps, I could also send you some of the documentation we have right now.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/?action=dlattach;attach=622831;image)
Hello MikeP,Unless you are expecting recurring noise at a frequency lower than 1 PLC (i.e. you expect some 30 Hz noise, then use 2 PLC), the 6500 will return the best results at 1 PLC. I would recommend averaging rather than higher PLC settings to reduce noise.
I can't see actually no expressive difference between measuring a ltz1000 reference with lm399 based dmm6500 with 5 or 10 NLPC. The result is the same as shown, setting isn't more accurate. Also filtering do show everything else than more the truth, because we try to measure the missing 7th digit with a higher noisy dmm as the reference itself. ;)
Ah yeah, that's a weird quirk. 2700 Emulation mode ignores the 20mA range and will only use the 100mA range. You can see this if you're watching the front panel when you set the range with CONF:CURR. I'll mention that to manuals, it should probably be explicitly called out in the Emulation Manual.There is one thing which did not migrated properly: external triggering using the Digital I/O connector in K2700 emulation mode. We had to (re)connect the trigger line to the BNC connector on te back of unit to make it work.I see what you're talking about, I couldn't get it to work either. I know 2700 emulation was tested pretty extensively so I'm not sure if there's a problem with the manual or the emulation mode. The person who tested it is out this week, so I'll get back to you next week with an update. I'm glad you were able to get your triggering to work over BNC though!
upgrading to V1.0.03 fixed the issue. :-+
Another question regarding the K2700 emulation-mode: the K2700 has a a current range of 0 ... 20 mA, the DAQ6510 only has 0 ... 10 mA or 0 ... 100mA ranges. In emulation-mode a 0 ... 20mA range is available, but how is this implemented? Nothing more than 0 ... 100mA range capped at 20mA?
Tell me who knows: how to correctly determine that the buffer filling in the device is over? For example, set Count = 1000 with 10 NPLC. It's half an hour. What should I ask the device to find out if it has finished?It sounds like you're in continuous mode and then send the box a query over the remote interface, is that right? Continuous mode isn't available when you're using the remote interface, so the box will always leave it and go to Manual Trigger mode if you send it a command (which puts the box into remote mode). The commands you listed are a good way to find how full the buffer is (in combination with defbuffer1.capacity) but unless you start the measurement from a remote interface, going into remote mode will interrupt your measurement.
I tried to find out
defbuffer1.endindex
defbuffer1.n
But always the data collection stopped.
What should I ask the device in order not to interfere with its data collection?
Or should I calculate the time myself and maintain the timeout?
With the settings I gave? I see <100ns variation off of 1s between each reading. I'll put together a script tomorrow for you to try.Here's a small walk through on how to use the trigger model to have equal spacing between your measurements, where the spacing you want isn't necessarily the minimum.I checked this model. Unfortunately, it has the same 1 μs jitter.
Are those DigiV measurements with the 7510 or 6500?I was working with 7510. It was necessary to indicate this.
It sounds like you're in continuous mode and then send the box a query over the remote interface, is that right? Continuous mode isn't available when you're using the remote interface, so the box will always leave it and go to Manual Trigger mode if you send it a command (which puts the box into remote mode). The commands you listed are a good way to find how full the buffer is (in combination with defbuffer1.capacity) but unless you start the measurement from a remote interface, going into remote mode will interrupt your measurement.Yes that's right. I did not know about this feature. And I ran the measurements manually on the instrument and tried to read them remotely. It turned out that this can not be done. It is necessary to run and read data remotely.
With the settings I gave? I see <100ns variation off of 1s between each reading. I'll put together a script tomorrow for you to try.It is very interesting. It looks like I do not notice some important nuance. I will try to show the results that I get.
Update:The hyperlinks in the manual are working fine for me with Adobe Acrobat, is anyone else have trouble? Try downloading directly from Tek.com...
As i see now, there is a big difference between Reference Manual 7510 and Reference Manual 6500:So, the use of the above mentioned, extracted, intern correct linked HTML-Helpfile-Doc's for workflow TSP programming make sense, till the Reference Manual 6500 is corrected.
- the Links in the 6500 Manual are not working,
(DMM6500-901-01 Rev. A / April 2018)- the Links in the 7510 Manual do!
Also, the TSB command help files are compiled from the same source the Reference Manuals are compiled from. You can access the TSB version of the help directly without going through TSB with (in Windows 10 at least): Windows Key > Keithley Instruments folder > TSB for 65XX Documentation. Or, just keep the Reference Manual pdf open and jump back to page 17, where the TSP command list starts.
They are similar, but there are a few differences, this is one of them. The 7510 has different specs for its timestamps when digitizing than the DMM6500/DAQ6510, (search for "timestamp" in the 7510 datasheet to see the lines I'll be mentioning) the timestamp resolution is 1ns for standard buffers so that's why you're seeing that small variation, the actual difference is probably less. The timestamp accuracy is spec'd to "20ns between adjacent readings". What it means is there's 20ns of uncertainty between adjacent readings, so two readings could potentially be 40ns apart, as you're seeing. The reason for this discrepancy, incidentally, is that the 7510 uses different clocks for timestamps and digitized readings that sync up every so often. In actuality, the digitized readings are probably much closer together than what the timestamps say, it's the timestamps with the uncertainty, not the readings.Are those DigiV measurements with the 7510 or 6500?I was working with 7510. It was necessary to indicate this.
It seems to me that they are very similar? Or is it not?
Try this script I'm attaching (same deal, change .txt to .tsp and run on the instrument), it's the same one I described in this message. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg2056225/#msg2056225) It'll take 100 readings on the 10V DCV range each 1s apart, just to make sure you're not missing anything. Like I said, I saw <100ns difference between timestamps, you should see somewhere around that.With the settings I gave? I see <100ns variation off of 1s between each reading. I'll put together a script tomorrow for you to try.It is very interesting. It looks like I do not notice some important nuance. I will try to show the results that I get.
Ahhh, I see what you mean, try clicking the page number instead of the function name, does that work?Update:The hyperlinks in the manual are working fine for me with Adobe Acrobat, is anyone else have trouble? Try downloading directly from Tek.com...
As i see now, there is a big difference between Reference Manual 7510 and Reference Manual 6500:So, the use of the above mentioned, extracted, intern correct linked HTML-Helpfile-Doc's for workflow TSP programming make sense, till the Reference Manual 6500 is corrected.
- the Links in the 6500 Manual are not working,
(DMM6500-901-01 Rev. A / April 2018)- the Links in the 7510 Manual do!
Also, the TSB command help files are compiled from the same source the Reference Manuals are compiled from. You can access the TSB version of the help directly without going through TSB with (in Windows 10 at least): Windows Key > Keithley Instruments folder > TSB for 65XX Documentation. Or, just keep the Reference Manual pdf open and jump back to page 17, where the TSP command list starts.
Hmm, that's weird.
Are there different Reference Manuals: DMM6500-901-01 Rev. A / April 2018?
Downloaded from:
https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-bench-system-0 (https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500-manual/model-dmm6500-6-1-2-digit-bench-system-0)
Look at pictures, green are real hyperlinks, red are no hyperlinks, only colored text.
Ahhh, I see what you mean, try clicking the page number instead of the function name, does that work?
All those links will be fixed in the next manual update in March.
The 7510 has different specs for its timestamps when digitizing than the DMM6500/DAQ6510, (search for "timestamp" in the 7510 datasheet to see the lines I'll be mentioning) the timestamp resolution is 1ns for standard buffers so that's why you're seeing that small variation, the actual difference is probably less. The timestamp accuracy is spec'd to "20ns between adjacent readings". What it means is there's 20ns of uncertainty between adjacent readings, so two readings could potentially be 40ns apart, as you're seeing.Oh yes :( I don't read the fine print well.
The reason for this discrepancy, incidentally, is that the 7510 uses different clocks for timestamps and digitized readings that sync up every so often. In actuality, the digitized readings are probably much closer together than what the timestamps say, it's the timestamps with the uncertainty, not the readings.Is there any chance that this will be fixed in 7510? After all then all sense of timestamp is lost.
Try this script I'm attaching (same deal, change .txt to .tsp and run on the instrument), it's the same one I described in this message. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg2056225/#msg2056225) It'll take 100 readings on the 10V DCV range each 1s apart, just to make sure you're not missing anything. Like I said, I saw <100ns difference between timestamps, you should see somewhere around that.I ran this script from the device (just fixed BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE on BLOCK_MEASURE for the second block). And I got a constant error of 17.5 μs on each measurement and the peak to peak spread is the peak of 2500 ns.
100ns fits within the specs if your buffer is longer than 2s. In non-digitize measurements, the timestamps aren't spec'd but they generally match the behavior of the digitize function timestamps, so longer buffers could see jumps like that.The 7510 has different specs for its timestamps when digitizing than the DMM6500/DAQ6510, (search for "timestamp" in the 7510 datasheet to see the lines I'll be mentioning) the timestamp resolution is 1ns for standard buffers so that's why you're seeing that small variation, the actual difference is probably less. The timestamp accuracy is spec'd to "20ns between adjacent readings". What it means is there's 20ns of uncertainty between adjacent readings, so two readings could potentially be 40ns apart, as you're seeing.Oh yes :( I don't read the fine print well.
OK :( +/- 20 ns meet specifications. But 100 ns is already beyond the specification. Plus in DCV modes, the spread is more than 100ns :(
Honestly, it's not very likely. There simply aren't enough people that need the kind of timestamp resolution or accuracy you're talking about to justify the change. We changed the way timestamps are handled in the 6500/6510 to improve accuracy and resolution, but the 7510 is unlikely, at this time, to receive changes to how it handles them.QuoteThe reason for this discrepancy, incidentally, is that the 7510 uses different clocks for timestamps and digitized readings that sync up every so often. In actuality, the digitized readings are probably much closer together than what the timestamps say, it's the timestamps with the uncertainty, not the readings.Is there any chance that this will be fixed in 7510? After all then all sense of timestamp is lost.
Wait, is this buffer from the 7510 too? BLOCK_MEASURE is depreciated in the DMM6500/DAQ6510 in favor of BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE. I'm assuming everything in this thread is about the 6500/6510 unless you tell me otherwise and the 7510 behaves differently enough that I need to know which one you're using if you want good answers, also so that I can properly replicate and log issues.QuoteTry this script I'm attaching (same deal, change .txt to .tsp and run on the instrument), it's the same one I described in this message. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg2056225/#msg2056225) It'll take 100 readings on the 10V DCV range each 1s apart, just to make sure you're not missing anything. Like I said, I saw <100ns difference between timestamps, you should see somewhere around that.I ran this script from the device (just fixed BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE on BLOCK_MEASURE for the second block). And I got a constant error of 17.5 μs on each measurement and the peak to peak spread is the peak of 2500 ns.
Data in the attachment.
Honestly, it's not very likely. There simply aren't enough people that need the kind of timestamp resolution or accuracy you're talking about to justify the change. We changed the way timestamps are handled in the 6500/6510 to improve accuracy and resolution, but the 7510 is unlikely, at this time, to receive changes to how it handles them.Very sad. I thought a higher grade device deserves greater precision in the first place.
Wait, is this buffer from the 7510 too? BLOCK_MEASURE is depreciated in the DMM6500/DAQ6510 in favor of BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE. I'm assuming everything in this thread is about the 6500/6510 unless you tell me otherwise and the 7510 behaves differently enough that I need to know which one you're using if you want good answers, also so that I can properly replicate and log issues.
That said, I could replicate your graph with the 7510 and that amount of timestamp drift is surprising to me and the firmware engineers. I've logged an issue to look into this and see what's happening.
From the script I gave you, there's a couple places that could cause the delay offset (which is not present in the 6500) and jitter (which is much less in the 6500) worth looking at.If possible, tell us more about it. I want to understand my device by myself. So that I can write good scripts without distracting you from work.
After spending couple of hours with the reference manual, I was able to kinda implement this missing feature. At the end, as a bonus, through a small hack I was able to upgrade the main display resolution to 8.5 digits! (sorta, see the images) :-/O
Nice hanks, but that's 7.5 digits ^-^.
Do you want to share your scripts, please? I'm very interested!I can share the script, sure. But before exposing my trick to display 7+ digits I want to make sure that spying( :) ) Keithley guys won't have this "feature" fixed in the new firmwares ;)
Another question, did you get a detailed calibration report, as it should be for such an instrument?
And welcome to the forum. :)
I was surprised when I first saw the calibration data. .... the multimeter can return such values, but not on the display.How did you access the cal data?
Nice hanks, but that's 7.5 digits ^-^.You are right that it doesn't show 8.5 digits, but I can see 8 digits in the big display mode (first digit can be 9). Let's call it 8.0 digits. Deal? :P
Yes, a couple of Blue Screens and some Bugs here and there, but it's liveable, though, the biggest design flaw is the FAN !Totally agree. I'm very sensitive to noise and thus I replaced the fans of my NAS, my lab power supply and while building my beefy 32-core dual xeon system I made sure the fans are super silent. This device is the biggest noise maker in the entire house now. I'm tempted to replace that fan with a silent Noctua fan but probably won't touch it while it's newly calibrated.
(Personal opinion ;))
The digits beyond about 7 digits have no real value. The noise and INL error of the DMM is likely larger than that. From some point it's also just a floating point number scaling a limited resolution value. So there will be some steps no to allow all possible values in between.
There is a little value to the 7 th digit in that one can see drift direction a little earlier and does not get extra rounding or quantization error. So it's OK for the computer to use those extra digit(s), but when writing things down by hand it's usually not worth it.
9.999981650865,Volt DC,...,6.984300,Volt DC,
9.999980233491,Volt DC,...,6.984298,Volt DC,
9.999979931922,Volt DC,...,6.984298,Volt DC,
I can share the script, sure. But before exposing my trick to display 7+ digits I want to make sure that spying( :) ) Keithley guys won't have this "feature" fixed in the new firmwares ;)Then please PM it to me. Please also the trick to display 2nd trace. :)
I received a "Traceable calibration certificate" with a certificate no but I don't know where to find the detailed report.Then you didn't got it. Look at MikeP's earlyer Post, he published his.
I'm not very sure about how the sense and input terminals are actually digitized internally for the volt ratio, but looking at the graph I can definitely see some concurrent jumps in both channels, which are probably from the DMMs internal noise, and I see jumps only on a single channel, which suggests that coming from the DUT. So with some digital signal processing I can hopefully extract some stats for those 3 devices separately. We'll see.That's my idea too. Some of my refs sometimes tend to go crazy. And i don't know, is it the dmm. If they do it the same time, I'm one step further. And yes, there is popcorn noise...
With large NPLC and filtering values I can get a very stable 7th digit. Although a single ADC output won't have a useful info in the 7th digit, with averaging I think 7th digit is usable for some limited cases.I use the 7th digit from cvs-protocoll, to build my traces with Libreoffice.
Hey @analogRF I don’t know if you’ve bought a 6500 yet, but I put together that Probe hold script for you and anyone else (@MikeP). Also see the end for news on firmware.I like this script. When working in DCV mode, it helps to put the meter input impedance to 10 MOhm. In high impedance mode the probes can float above the threshold voltage by just laying on the table or being unconnected, in your hand, and add unwanted entries in the hold table when moving from testpoint to testpoint.
It uses the App interface of the DMM so it behaves a little differently from a normal script. I put together some info below.
INSTRUCTIONS:
1. Download the attached file and change the .txt ending to .tspa
2. Make sure your DMM’s command set is set to TSP in MENU > Settings
3. Put the script on a USB drive and insert into the DMM
4. Press the APPS key and go to the USB tab
5. You can either run the script here, or save it to local memory first (it will be added to local memory automatically)
6. Click Run
....
This device is the biggest noise maker in the entire house now. I'm tempted to replace that fan with a silent Noctua fan but probably won't touch it while it's newly calibrated.
I will continue to ask about the 7510Can you open a 7510 thread? These posts about another instrument in they DMM6500 and DAQ6510 thread are confusing.
Can you open a 7510 thread? These posts about another instrument in they DMM6500 and DAQ6510 thread are confusing.You can do a lot of thread. But Brad O is one. And it seems to me that the chance to get an answer is higher if you write in one topic. Plus the software control of these two devices is very similar. If possible, I would like to stay in this thread.
Recommend you to start another thread, please.Ok.
Why should you need a Fan? This is a professional working tool, having to listen to a Fan (all day) is fatiguing.Bit of a simple answer really, but the fan is needed to manage the heat of the internal components. The higher performing digital and analog circuits used in our modern DMMs generate more heat that needs to be managed compared to, say, a model 2000. A low speed mode is not likely (we looked into it), that would alter the box enough that it would require different specs, so the box would need two independent specifications for every function.
Would it be possible to have a low speed mode or even being able to turn it of, maybe with some penalties is performance?
Yes, turning mostly to Brad O here.
I can share the script, sure. But before exposing my trick to display 7+ digits I want to make sure that spying( :) ) Keithley guys won't have this "feature" fixed in the new firmwares ;)Lol, don't worry, that's an intended feature. The primary reason you would use a writable buffer is to plot and display calculated or imported (from another instrument) data that could be any number of digits. This also means that, while writable buffers still specify their resolution with half digit notation, they allow full scale digits in each place since a calculated value could be anything. So a buffer.DIGITS_8_5 writable buffer is really 9 digits.
You can right click virtual front panel for screen only :)There was actually an argument between a couple engineers debating whether right-clicking would be useful to people. Glad you like it! ;D
Ah yes, it was always my intention for that threshold to be symmetric about 0, so I can update the labeling. I'm planning to write another version that is more stable, but it requires features that aren't in the currently available firmware.Hey @analogRF I don’t know if you’ve bought a 6500 yet, but I put together that Probe hold script for you and anyone else (@MikeP). Also see the end for news on firmware.I like this script. When working in DCV mode, it helps to put the meter input impedance to 10 MOhm. In high impedance mode the probes can float above the threshold voltage by just laying on the table or being unconnected, in your hand, and add unwanted entries in the hold table when moving from testpoint to testpoint.
It uses the App interface of the DMM so it behaves a little differently from a normal script. I put together some info below.
INSTRUCTIONS:
1. Download the attached file and change the .txt ending to .tspa
2. Make sure your DMM’s command set is set to TSP in MENU > Settings
3. Put the script on a USB drive and insert into the DMM
4. Press the APPS key and go to the USB tab
5. You can either run the script here, or save it to local memory first (it will be added to local memory automatically)
6. Click Run
....
One thing I noticed is that the threshold label says that anything above it is captured, but if you enter 2 V, also -2.5 V is captured. Not an issue, but it seems contrary to what's labeled.
Yes please! MegaVolt let me know what that other thread is so I can subscribe to it (I just checked and didn't see it). 7510 questions also take a bit more time to answer since some of the design engineers are on different projects now so I have to hunt them down more and they may have to look up design documents. The DMM6500/DAQ6510 engineers are all still together.QuoteI will continue to ask about the 7510Can you open a 7510 thread? These posts about another instrument in they DMM6500 and DAQ6510 thread are confusing.
I was playing with the dual volt idea, not that it'd be very useful but as a toy project to learn DMM6500's programming capabilities and the feature set. It was also a good opportunity to learn the Lua language.Very cool! If you're interested, send me a PM and we can talk about giving you a preliminary copy of the API for you to play around with so you can see what the arguments for these commands actually are. You are correct in that it's not publicly documented because it still has bugs in it.
By reverse engineering the example scripts and the applications that Tektronix and Brad O provided (i.e. hold probe), I was able to convert my script to an interactive application to eliminate most of the limitations the system puts while a script is running. Unfortunately all of these apps are using an undocumented (AFAIK) API which looks slightly buggy (that's probably why it's not released and documented yet). The main issue is that after the application is terminated the swipe screen I create stays on the screen as an orphan resource and crashes the DMM when displayed. Brad O's hold probe script suffers from the same issue as well. I can safely delete the other swipe pages but not the one I created. weird.
Another problem is that the derived voltage values are not computed if the custom swipe screen is not visible, this is probably because the window message pump is not working if the window is hidden. I could not find a way to fix this. When/if the API is released, I can revisit this script. Currently the app will catch up the missed values as soon as the dual voltage swipe screen is displayed though.
If anyone wants to play with it here it is: https://github.com/cozdas/DMM6500/tree/master/cozDualVolt . Just grab the cozDualVolt.tspa and put in a USB stick. You can access it in the Apps screen. As I said, after the application is terminated, DMM GUI becomes unstable so it'd be a good idea to reboot.
Timeline (x-achsis) is wrong. (normal use)Wait, what's wrong with the x-axis?
MegaVolt let me know what that other thread is so I can subscribe to it (I just checked and didn't see it).https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/all-about-keithley-dmm7510-bugs-and-features-recipes-advice-notes/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/all-about-keithley-dmm7510-bugs-and-features-recipes-advice-notes/)
The marks "0d:21" .. "1d:00" .. "1d:04" .. "1d:07" are relative meaningless to me. The methode is 'show all', what it does, the scale is 13.76 ks, the axsismarks are fixed there the whole 2nd day for now. In my opinion the axismarks should be fairly correspond to the cumulative measurement.Timeline (x-achsis) is wrong. (normal use)Wait, what's wrong with the x-axis?
A note on the digits, ALL digits past what is guaranteed by the specs have no value. Even if they look reasonable, they are only eyecandy and may be a different value in an hour/day/month. The way the instrument is calibrated and its design error budget / uncertainties mean you shouldn't use anything past what the specs say if you want to consider them valid. If we secretly designed an 8.5 digit meter into a 6.5 digit meter, you can be sure we would be charging an 8.5 meter price ;)That's right. But as you can see here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg2166871/#msg2166871), the 1st 'crazy'-picture still shows me roughly what's happening on the 7th digit of the measurement. Irrespective of whether the
You can remove that cable, put everything back together, and the box will function normally (throwing a fan error on startup that can be ignored). The box in this setup (obviously) may not meet specs, particularly on higher ranges and any digitize mode.
...ALL digits past what is guaranteed by the specs have no value. Even if they look reasonable, they are only eyecandy and may be a different value in an hour/day/month.From the uncertainty point of view, you are totally right. But I respectfully disagree with you on the "extra digits being just eyecandy". Accuracy/uncertainty is not the whole picture. If you have two devices you need to evaluate the noise of and DUT1 moves the 7th digit only between 4 and 6 while DUT2 moves the same digit between 2 and 9 most of the time and if this behavior is "repeatable" with the same DMM even better "reproducable" with a second DMM, then this is a useful and valid "data" even "information". Note that they'll look totally identical In 6.5 digit mode.
Using 1d:04 and so one for indicating days and hours is at least unusual. Unless really long time of many days, I would prefer using just hours even of the numbers go beyond 100.That belongs to what someone is looking for. In my case i'm looking for when some of my refs goes crazy, as I have already described here. And they do it very sporadically over the time. Are there only some? Or all? All the same time? Is it with my precise resistors too? And finaly, is it the dmm or dut or environmental influences?
The 6500 is definitely a good instrument to do long time measurements, like over several days. It is just that the way the times are printed is unusual. It's more like a personal taste of one prefers 245 hours or 10 days and 5 hours. It if there are daily cycles the notation with days may indeed be a little more practical.
The main point is that the scaling of the axis in the graph mode needs some attention / updates. It looks like this effects both the x and y axis and very likely would also effect resistor readings.
If Vishay is right (0,0 ppm/°C)Nope, you falled for their specmanship like many others. Those resistors are not zero TCR, but they are pretty good.
QuoteIf Vishay is right (0,0 ppm/°C)Nope, you falled for their specmanship like many others. Those resistors are not zero TCR, but they are pretty good.
To stay on topic, you need larger themperature sweep to better measure TCRs and repeat test multiple times to be sure, as possible hysteresis might bias your data.
The SENSE terminals are used as the reference voltage (VS). The SENSE terminals can measure DC volts in 100 mV, 1 V, and 10 V ranges.
The INPUT terminals provide the voltage (Vi) to be compared against the reference voltage. They can measure DC volts in 100 mV, 1 V, 10 V, 100 V, and 1000 V ranges.
I'm also having trouble plotting two traces with the same scale but different offsets. I want to see two traces one with 10V mean other with 7V mean be plotted centered on the same grid with 10mv/div so that I can compare how they change in time.You can try to take away the constant component. Those. from the first signal subtract 10. From the second 7. As a result, both signals will be near zero.
You can try to take away the constant component. Those. from the first signal subtract 10. From the second 7. As a result, both signals will be near zero. To take away, you can use scripts or math access in the settings.
That's eventually what I did but I did that on my PC on the CSV exported data. Because you can't apply math in DMM6500 to the already collected data. There are workarounds, so it's not a show stopper of course but it'd be nice to have a better behaving and controllable graphing system.You can apply math during data collection. Or use the lua language which supports the device. Documentation for this is very little: (
Unfortunately that's not possible with the current design. Firmware can tell the fan to be on High or Low (It's on Low all the time right now), but there isn't any method that would allow the fan to be turned off completely, it would require, I'm told, a significant amount of work. Believe me, we know people don't like fans, and we have these instruments on our desks all day too (you should hear the fan required for the original 4200!). The fan was actually added pretty late in development, the team thought the DMM wouldn't need it at first, but when it wasn't meeting specs a fan had to be added.You can remove that cable, put everything back together, and the box will function normally (throwing a fan error on startup that can be ignored). The box in this setup (obviously) may not meet specs, particularly on higher ranges and any digitize mode.
If fanless operation only effects the accuracy and does have a permanent effect, then can you please, pretty please add an option to the firmware to turn it off? I'm sure that your internal team will be worried about the unit being out of spec in this mode but this feature can be hidden (reached only via the TSP interface for example), unit can warn you about the accuracy loss with a flashing red screen that requires triple "I understand" clicks, there may be a always visible small note in the corner of the screen and the device can return to the normal operation on each restart. But at least for some of us the accurate readings is not a requirement all the time. While developing an application for it, for example, I need to keep the device on mostly doing nothing but occasionally running my screen script code while I need to endure the constant sound coming from it all the time.
I'm having trouble with two settings in DMM6500:Ahh, you've found another manual error. You cannot change the 65xx sense range, it's always 10V. That section was copied from the DMM7510 manual which does have multiple sense ranges. That's been fixed for the next manual update.
1) Although the manual implies that in the voltage ratio function the sense input range can be adjusted, I could not find any way to change it other than the 10V range it default to. Has anyone figured out if this is possible and how?
Here an excerpt from the manualQuoteThe SENSE terminals are used as the reference voltage (VS). The SENSE terminals can measure DC volts in 100 mV, 1 V, and 10 V ranges.
The INPUT terminals provide the voltage (Vi) to be compared against the reference voltage. They can measure DC volts in 100 mV, 1 V, 10 V, 100 V, and 1000 V ranges.
2) The graph axis system indeed needs some love. Besides the non-round division values (e.g. 11.2mv/div) I'm also having trouble plotting two traces with the same scale but different offsets. I want to see two traces one with 10V mean other with 7V mean be plotted centered on the same grid with 10mv/div so that I can compare how they change in time. It feels like if you set the Y-Axis scale method to "OFF" you should be able to change the "scale" and "minimum position" values in the in Graph/Scale tab because those fields change into buttons so that you can click and enter numbers. But once you enter the numbers for the first trace and switch to the other trace to set its values, the buttons are replaced with read-only text fields and you can't get the buttons back until you change the Y-Axis method to something else and back to OFF again. Currently the value you entered for the first trace is applied to the all other traces. I hope in the upcoming firmwares it'd be possible to set the scaling and offsetting values of each trace manually.Huh, the buttons disappearing is definitely a bug (fixed in the dev firmware), but the fact that each buffer copies the others scale settings might be intended... I gather that's not the behavior you want or expect though, I would think each buffer's scale should be independent too. I put in bug report on that. You can indeed manipulate the graph in much more detail with TSP commands (and it won't copy settings between buffers, so that probably is a bug). The graph commands are part of the display API though so they're not publicly documented as of yet. As a workaround, you can use the touch screen to edit each graph's scale independently, but when you switch buffers it will still copy the settings of the last buffer you were on.
Finally, another quick firmware release went out, 1.0.04. I don't think it addresses anything that's been mentioned here but the release notes/downloads are at these links:The update isn't accepted by my dmm6500:
DMM6500: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes)
DAQ6510: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes)
Error 2310
Not enough memory to perform upgrade...The update isn't accepted by my dmm6500:Code: [Select]Fresh fat32-stick's, two tested.Error 2310
Not enough memory to perform upgrade
All reset, also without main-power for a while.
...Thanks for your response. Yes, i emptied defbuffer1, deleted all other buffers manually.
It installed for me. I upgraded from 1.0.03.c
Can you check via MENU -> Reading Buffers if there aren't big buffers stored on the system?
When you click on the defbuffer1 button, you see all the buffers stored on your meter. You can delete the non-standard ones.
Can you open the downloaded firmware file in an archive program like 7-ZIP? It's an archive that contains a mix of other archives and a txt file.Yes. Zip-File is original, "ki_DMM6500_v1_0_04b.upg" used.
Did you manually power cycle the box immediately before trying to upgrade? Manually deleting buffers and variables might not free up enough memory for an upgrade due to fragmentation of the memory space I've talked about before. Engineering is working on a solution to that for the next firmware, but currently, memory can still become fragmented and limit the maximum size of memory objects. Restarting the box is the way to completely reset the volatile memory.Finally, another quick firmware release went out, 1.0.04. I don't think it addresses anything that's been mentioned here but the release notes/downloads are at these links:The update isn't accepted by my dmm6500:
DMM6500: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes)
DAQ6510: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes)Code: [Select]Fresh fat32-stick's, two tested.Error 2310
Not enough memory to perform upgrade
All reset, also without main-power for a while.
That's the first what I do, yes.Did you manually power cycle the box immediately before trying to upgrade? Manually deleting buffers and variables might not free up enough memory for an upgrade due to fragmentation of the memory space I've talked about before. Engineering is working on a solution to that for the next firmware, but currently, memory can still become fragmented and limit the maximum size of memory objects. Restarting the box is the way to completely reset the volatile memory.Finally, another quick firmware release went out, 1.0.04. I don't think it addresses anything that's been mentioned here but the release notes/downloads are at these links:The update isn't accepted by my dmm6500:
DMM6500: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/dmm6500-software/dmm6500-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes)
DAQ6510: https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes (https://www.tek.com/digital-multimeter/daq6510-software/daq6510-firmware-v1004-and-release-notes)Code: [Select]Fresh fat32-stick's, two tested.Error 2310
Not enough memory to perform upgrade
All reset, also without main-power for a while.
Scripts are stored in non-volatile flash memory so they purposefully persist when you power cycle the instrument. When the box starts up, they're loaded into volatile memory so you can immediately access them from a remote interface or from the front panel. How many scripts do you have on your box? What does it say for available space at the bottom left of MENU > Manage (under Scripts)?At last only autoexec, without something i wrote in to that.
-- set up reading buffers
KSBuffer = buffer.make(5000000,buffer.STYLE_STANDARD)
KSBuffer.fillmode = buffer.FILL_CONTINUOUSOk. I got it.Aha! So as soon as you start up the instrument, ~75% of your memory was taken up by a reading buffer. So, yes, deleting that buffer should've freed up all that space again, except for the memory fragmentation. Like I said, that's something we're working on so now engineering can use your autoexec code as an usage example, thank you! Glad you were able to upgrade!
Upgrading successed.
In the autoexec are something like this:Code: [Select]That was something to much.-- set up reading buffers
KSBuffer = buffer.make(5000000,buffer.STYLE_STANDARD)
KSBuffer.fillmode = buffer.FILL_CONTINUOUS
But: i deleted and emptied all buffers before upgrading, after powecycling, several times, except buffer defbuffer1, which i only emtied. The memory free shows always 92% as now after upgrading too.
But problem solved after deleting that autoexec.
This dmm has a whole new approach as we know of the previous conventional type with measuring instruments of this type and offers far more possibilities. This gives rise to the problem of the gui developers of casting these into a mould which, on the one hand, must be consistent in terms of its technical possibilities and, on the other hand, must be as conclusive as possible from the user's point of view.
I have a DMM6500 now on my desk, a colleague of mine bought one to the company. This is a seriously confusing and disappointing bit of gear. First of all, I had a BSOD on it. And the entire digitize and trigger model is just complicated as hell. With some settings, the screen just start blinking, showing random data. With some other settings it takes measurement every now and then, and it just extrapolates the data between it? Or it shows me that the maximum number of samples can only be 7870020 samples, and then doesnt fill in this number into the input field?
It feels like this was made by robots, who wanted to tick all the boxes, but no real though put into how to use a meter.
I have a DMM6500 now on my desk, a colleague of mine bought one to the company. This is a seriously confusing and disappointing bit of gear. First of all, I had a BSOD on it. And the entire digitize and trigger model is just complicated as hell. With some settings, the screen just start blinking, showing random data. With some other settings it takes measurement every now and then, and it just extrapolates the data between it? Or it shows me that the maximum number of samples can only be 7870020 samples, and then doesnt fill in this number into the input field?Well, digitizing and the trigger model are the most complicated topics so that's pretty understandable you'd have trouble with them. I gave a small walkthrough of a basic trigger model back in this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg2056225/#msg2056225), it might help you feel more comfortable with how the blocks work. There are also a few videos on the digitize functions if you search YouTube. This video (https://www.tek.com/how/capturing-complex-signals-graphical-sampling-dmm) on the DMM6500's webpage explains most of the common settings while performing a short demo.
It feels like this was made by robots, who wanted to tick all the boxes, but no real though put into how to use a meter.
EDIT: Oh! A little preview feature I think you all will like: The latest dev firmware is much stricter about what values are allowed for the graph divisions. It now snaps to whole numbers like 4uV/div or 200mV/div rather than things like 2.448uV/div or 406.3mV/div.
EDIT: Oh! A little preview feature I think you all will like: The latest dev firmware is much stricter about what values are allowed for the graph divisions. It now snaps to whole numbers like 4uV/div or 200mV/div rather than things like 2.448uV/div or 406.3mV/div.
Cool, looking forward to it!
While you're on it, can you also please make sure that the graph Y axis numbers show the informative, distinct digits rather than the common thus non-informative ones? Check the attached images: here the Y range is less than 100uV though in the current implementation Y axis numbers show the 10mv, 1mv and 100uV digits, totally missing the important part. Something like the second image is what I'd expect to see.
A little tip, with many measuring points, the image becomes a little bit clearer (edit: but without peaks) if someone only lets it be displayed as line.
cozdas
I wonder how you can get these pictures, which the dmm is hardly capable of without scripting. ;D
Yeah, that's what I thought. ;Dcozdas
I wonder how you can get these pictures, which the dmm is hardly capable of without scripting. ;D
Photoshop ;D
...With some settings, the screen just start blinking, showing random data. With some other settings it takes measurement every now and then, and it just extrapolates the data between it? ...
Whats the "proper" way to perform measurements when the trigger is high?That's the method I would use (or close to it). The external trigger lines and trigger model were designed with traditional TTL triggering in mind, so the command set around it is geared towards transitions rather than states. For state based triggering, I would recommend using DIO if possible so you could do a simple state check before starting the trigger model. But, as long as your trigger line starts low, this trigger model should be fine. If this is a script, you could add some TSP logic before hand to wait for a falling edge then change the external trigger logic to either and initiate the model. To hard code it even more, you could rewrite the commands outside the trigger model so you could change trigger.extin.edge between rising and falling after every detected event.
I tried:
trigger.extin.edge = trigger.EDGE_EITHER
trigger.model.setblock(1, trigger.BLOCK_BUFFER_CLEAR, buffer)
trigger.model.setblock(2, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_EXTERNAL, trigger.CLEAR_ENTER)
trigger.model.setblock(3, trigger.BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE, buffer, trigger.COUNT_INFINITE)
trigger.model.setblock(4, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_EXTERNAL, trigger.CLEAR_ENTER)
trigger.model.setblock(5, trigger.BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE, buffer, trigger.COUNT_STOP)
But this could get activated when trigger is low, and I also received a warning in the log stating: "trigger model is not optimized for speed due to multiple blocks waiting on the same event. Less complex trigger models can utilize hardware resources to improve performance. The trigger model requires the use of slower resources and may not achieve published specifications".
Thanks
trigger.model.setblock(1, trigger.BLOCK_BUFFER_CLEAR, buffer)
trigger.model.setblock(2, trigger.BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE, buffer, trigger.COUNT_STOP)
trigger.model.setblock(3, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_EXTERNAL, trigger.CLEAR_ENTER)
trigger.model.setblock(4, trigger.BLOCK_MEASURE_DIGITIZE, buffer, trigger.COUNT_INFINITE)
trigger.model.setblock(5, trigger.BLOCK_BRANCH_ON_EVENT, trigger.EVENT_EXTERNAL, 2)Reference number: NIHK-6331It's not a shared firmware with the DAQ6510.
The 7701, 7706, or 7708 now make accurate measurements for all combinations of 2-wire and 4-wire measurements, whether in a scan, script, or from the display.
...
-Did anyone make an FFT app, do you think that is possible, i mean can we make XY graphs?
...
You take your measurement buffer and make a new 'fake' frequency measurement buffer and hence you can use the existing graph, correct?Yes. I haven't done any measurements. Just created a buffer with unit Hz.
I do have a few questions though:The DMM6500/6510 are definitely RoHS compliant (the EU rule that prevents lead and cadmium use), but they still may contain those in certain parts. They have some exemptions for things like high voltage components, and certain required alloys. That sheet that's included is for some Chinese laws that have different requirements from RoHS. I'm not terribly familiar with them so I can't go into detail but that's the reason for the discrepancy.
- There is an A4 environmental info sheet included but it states that the PCB is still using lead but I think this is forbidden in Europe for new products, is this correct or just an old form in the box that was never updated?
Or maybe DMMs are an exception.
(the year on the paper was 2007)
- Do the 7700 series cards fit on it like the 7710, I thought only the 2000 cards?No, only the 2000 cards work with the DMM6500, the 77xx cards are only for the DAQ6510 (they really look very different, you couldn't confuse them in person). I believe they made the decision to share the release notes between the two instruments to simplify things, so there may be other places where exclusive features are referenced in updates.
I ask because in the DMM6500 firmware "update notes" ...
-Did anyone make an FFT app, do you think that is possible, i mean can we make XY graphs?Someone was working on one early in development but it was very slow. I will see if I can find it to see if it still works in the current firmware.
I saw the clock app so looks possible, I don't know about speed.
Like instead of moving over the wave data to see the time zoom, you would see like a 1024 points FFT.
- What do you need to build an TSPAPP, also the tsp builder?Instructions will be coming later this year, but really they're just text files with .tspa extension. They have some header requirements as well, I would look at existing examples to see what the header fields are. Test Script Builder is an IDE for developing in TSP, but technically you could use anything to write them.
Edit: one FEATURE REQUEST: could someone just make the numbers on the axis better chosen (less digits when not needed)Noted, thanks!
Example: I have a histogram with Y-grid 0, 40.1 ,80.2 ,120.3 etc. what was wrong with a grid of 0, 40, 80, 120??
I don't say less accurate by rounding, but choose the grid size better.
I remember when I was young and had a TI calculator the graph XY steps were always long numbers.
I figured out how they determined the steps and I wrote a script that adjusted the max. values of the X and Y axis so the step size would be a nice round number. (in this example just choose the max value 400 instead of 401.0 and for the X-axis that could easily be -1.700, -1.600, -1.500 etc.)
I understand that there is a lithium coin cell used for the real-time clock, and that it is meant to be factory replaced. The DMM6500 datasheet indicates 3+ years of battery life. If I replace this battery myself, will it affect calibration? If the DMM6500 is permanently connnected to mains without being swithced on, will the coin cell be drained, or will the real-time clock be powered from mains?It might? The box isn't supposed to be opened at all, that's what the calibration is counting on, realistically, the calibration probably wouldn't change that much. If you care about the calibration though you're probably sending it in once a year so they could just change the battery then if it dies.
I understand that the DMM6500 is / was bundled with a free licence for the KickStarter software. I read it was valid until March this year. Does this mean end of February or end of March? I checked with RS in Norway, and they had never heard about any such bundle.It was originally valid until March 31st of this year (so through next week) but that will shortly be extended another few months at least. You can tell them to check Tektronix Sales Tools for MSR 113-2485, or look at the DMM6500 partner presentation, or talk to their Tektronix rep if they need help figuring out what to do. They should quote you a KICKSTARTFL-BASE license and discount it to $0, so in the quote you will still see the full price of the license and a separate item that takes that price off. If they STILL won't give it to you for free, you can go ahead and make the purchase and talk to the Tektronix sales reps in Norway to get KickStart afterwords. Just explain the situation and give them the serial number of your unit.
I understand that the DMM6500 is / was bundled with a free licence for the KickStarter software. I read it was valid until March this year. Does this mean end of February or end of March? I checked with RS in Norway, and they had never heard about any such bundle.I bought it at farnell.com, when I registered on https://www.tek.com/ (https://www.tek.com/) I got a redeem button for the license code.
I bought it at farnell.com, when I registered on https://www.tek.com/ (https://www.tek.com/) I got a redeem button for the license code.That is true, that's a "locked" license so it is tied to the computer you first register the software to. That's a separate promotion running right now I think for all of our touch screen instruments. If you'd still like the floating license, you can reach out to the Tek office for your geographic location (www.tek.com/contact_us (http://www.tek.com/contact_us)).
But from what I understood this type of license cannot be moved to another computer. (I did not try though)
Also i have problems with high precision measurements in Kickstart, as example:Hmm, I see what you mean. I've passed those comments along to the KickStart folks, I'll post again if they get back to me with a detailed response. I agree with you though.
1 - When i measure 10.59077 value on 10V range, main(settings) screen shows only 10.5908 - last digit lost.
2 - No auto-zero config on settings screen.
3 - On graph last digits also desapear, as result horizontal line legends are same.
DMM6500 also do not shows last digit's on graph, horizontal line legends are same.
Also i have problems with high precision measurements in Kickstart, as example:1- They're aware of this one, the 6500 seems to have had its number of digits truncated 1 too many in some cases. So a basic bug, it will be fixed in the next release.
1 - When i measure 10.59077 value on 10V range, main(settings) screen shows only 10.5908 - last digit lost.
2 - No auto-zero config on settings screen.
3 - On graph last digits also desapear, as result horizontal line legends are same.
DMM6500 also do not shows last digit's on graph, horizontal line legends are same.
This has been addressed here somewhere - I thought in thos thread but can't find it back ...
The inputs of the multimeter have a galvanic connection (the second picture). I think this may affect accuracy. I ask Brad to explain the inner structure and imposed restrictions.The first picture is correct.
The shunt can be connected both to the upper arm and to the lower arm.
Please detail. What is the maximum voltage between INPUT LO and SENSE LO?Max (SENSE HI-SENSE LO) voltage is 10V.
I think it's 12 volts. Who will offer more?:))))) 12V = 10V + 20% stock
Page 10, spec-sheet.New datasheet?
Note 35. See DC VOLTAGE ACCURACY. SHI and SLO: 10 V range only. SHI and SLO (sense) terminals referenced to LO input. Maximum voltage
referenced to LO 12 V.
Indeed, it is 12V. The page 10 reference is from the spec sheet (attached) which has the same information but is formatted differently from the datasheetI think it's 12 volts. Who will offer more?:))))) 12V = 10V + 20% stockQuotePage 10, spec-sheet.New datasheet?
Note 35. See DC VOLTAGE ACCURACY. SHI and SLO: 10 V range only. SHI and SLO (sense) terminals referenced to LO input. Maximum voltage
referenced to LO 12 V.
Which reminds me, unfortunately the release of the next firmware has been delayed until the end of May. The team was really hoping to get it out by the end of March but it just wasn't ready with all the features we wanted in it. In addition, we've been trying to incorporate the feedback everyone here on EEVBlog has given. It's really quite hard to get direct feedback from people in this industry so your comments and problems have been extremely helpful in learning more about how people are using our instruments so thank you all!
My question for Brad is to do with programming the OBJ_SCREEN, as in his probe hold app. I have learnt a lot from studying the text but wonder if there is any reference material that explains some of the details of this subject that are not covered in the standard 6500 reference download?I'm so glad I can I can be of help! There is no official documentation for the apps API yet (so most of the display.* commands), but we are working on it! Believe me that you all expressing so much interest in TSP apps has made us want to get it right. The internal documentation we have is quite lacking, and there's a lot of changes and updates that need to made.
I need an array of numbers to do some FFT calculations:The command to write to a writable buffer is buffer.write.reading(). Generally, the only reason you would need to use a buffer is if you want to display the data on the front panel of the instrument, otherwise, it's probably easier to work with tables. Initializing variables is actually discouraged in TSP/Lua, but of course some times it's just easier to initialize than append everything. The way you do it is tableVar= {n=25}, that makes a table of size 25, you can then access those items how you'd like, with tableVar[k]. Speed wise, they should be about same, but I haven't done any timing testing to verify that.
What is the syntax to Write to a buffer?
outreal= buffer.make(n,buffer.STYLE_WRITABLE_FULL)
outimag= buffer.make(n,buffer.STYLE_WRITABLE_FULL)outreal[k]=5.0 ??
There is also the type 'table' but I don't know how to initialize it for like 1024 items.
Not sure if this would be faster or slower.
we've started a GitHub repository Keithley example code
Also since it's come up again, we are working on an FFT app, but it doesn't work on the currently released firmware. Plus we'll see how it compares to all the FFT work everyone else has been doing!Nice, you do know that it's not fair competition since you have more doc. and you can optimize the firmware for it ;)
Ons is niet bekend hoe de door u genoemde licentiecode verzonden wordt en/of dat deze al bij het apparaat meegeleverd wordt.
Wij leveren vanuit ons magazijn in Wernberg, Zuid-Duitsland en betrekken de artikelen via ons Duits moederbedrijf.
Het kan dus zijn dat als deze actie landgebonden is er bij de "Duitse" versie geen licentie wordt verstrekt.
Ons advies is dan ook even contact op te nemen met Tectronics via het in de link gepubliceerde telefoonnummer: 00800 2255 4835
Het lijkt er echter op dat als je de meter aanschaft en een bewijs van aankoop kunt overleggen aan Tectronics deze u dan de genoemde licentiecode zal mailen.
De software is sowieso al op voorhand te downloaden via de website van Tektronics.
... the spec sheet (attached) ...
Limited compatibility with 2001-SCAN and 2000-SCAN-20; see the DMM6500 Firmware Release Notes for additional information
cozdas
Yes, but isn't the specification of decimal places in the Femtovolt range a bit unrealistic anyway? ;D
(note so self: connect something to inputs next time you take a screenshot)
we've started a GitHub repository Keithley example codeNow I wish there would be similar repository for oldie goldie series DMMs too, like 200x series :).
Hi Brad,For the 2001-SCAN card, the only limited compatibility is the lack of the "high speed" scan mode on channels 5 & 10. The high speed channels work the same as all the other relays. For the 2000-SCAN-20 card, we didn't do thorough testing with it as the idea to include support was added only a little before release. If you plan on using the SCAN-20 card, let me know and we can complete the testing, but those cards aren't very common and we haven't received any questions about it so far. Actually, it may work perfectly well, but we can't guarantee that right now.
One quick question: in the spec sheet you attached there is this statement:QuoteLimited compatibility with 2001-SCAN and 2000-SCAN-20; see the DMM6500 Firmware Release Notes for additional information
I could not find any additional information anywhere though, including the firmware notes. Can you please clarify the support and limitations for the 2000-SCAN-20 card?
One quick bug report:Noted, thanks!
Resolution of the stats in the graph page is not consistent, when the cursors are turned on you get the stats for the area between cursors (very useful, thanks for this feature), but the number of digits reduced compared to whole buffer stats which is visible in the same location when the cursors are off. See the attached example.
According to Wolfram Alpha, that voltage level is about the same as a neuron firing. Hold on, I just got an idea for a neuro-surgery App note...(note so self: connect something to inputs next time you take a screenshot)As we can see, this meter can detect even fractions of nothing :)
I'm open to hosting code for any Keithley products (or just Keithley related code), it will just take time to add them (and I suppose a lot of the older examples we have are in BASIC...). I and some other Keithley engineers will keep adding examples we have, it just takes time to sort through everything. If any of you have code you'd like to add, please file a pull request against the dev branch (or just send me your code if you don't want to learn how to use GitHub).Quote from: Brad Owe've started a GitHub repository Keithley example codeNow I wish there would be similar repository for oldie goldie series DMMs too, like 200x series :).
All this contribution to forum from Brad and Keithley team is real gold, make me want to buy one of these DMM6500 to use develop some TSP app for using Keithley 1801.
Wondering if scanner port in DMM6500 also have I2C and SPI bus to communicate with Keithley 1801? If interfaces are there and somewhat accessible, that would be perfect example when TSP saves theAh yes, I know your love for the 1801. The DMM6500 scan port has the same basic communication as the 2000 scan port (which is to say, almost none) and what's there is buried pretty far in firmware. The 1801 always worked a little different compared to the other scan cards and I think the 2001/2 used a fair number of tricks to control it. It would take a fair amount of resources to figure out how to get an 1801 working with the DMM6500, if it's possible at all.worldday.
I know it's very very niche application, but it's the best amplifier there is for nanovolt-level measurements, but I was already impressed by amount of interested people in this niche equipment.
It would take a fair amount of resources to figure out how to get an 1801 working with the DMM6500, if it's possible at all.Sounds like a challenge :) Only problem is that there are no broken DMM6500 on ebay to buy, for trying :D. I actually restarted my old project of 1801 card, adding MCU to attempt fixing 2002 firmware issues.
99.99% of my equipment-related code/apps is in Python with GPIB comms. I'll think about what would be useful, and can tidy stuff up and upload to GitHub. Just not sure how that will align with your TSP instrument-related work, as older meters are not TSP-compatible. Hence my question, if you indeed want to mix everything into one bucket.Yeah! We specifically didn't want to make it a TSP-centric repo, that just happens to be what most of my code is in since I work with mostly the TSP products. There's already some C# and python up there though. And the Drivers sections is explicitly for non-TSP code (which reminds me I've got a bunch of LabVIEW drivers to put up there...)
Yeah altering readings isn't hard, doing anything with the scanning port that isn't controlling a 2000-SCAN card is though :-\QuoteIt would take a fair amount of resources to figure out how to get an 1801 working with the DMM6500, if it's possible at all.Sounds like a challenge :) Only problem is that there are no broken DMM6500 on ebay to buy, for trying :D. I actually restarted my old project of 1801 card, adding MCU to attempt fixing 2002 firmware issues.
Writing TSP script for DMM6500 to rescale functions/ranges should be relatively easy, but writing to EEPROM on 1801 card and selecting gain/filtering thru 4094 register need I2C and SPI access to scan-card port. I'd think simple API to read/write byte and manage CS might be enough, if that is possible.
For the 2001-SCAN card, the only limited compatibility is the lack of the "high speed" scan mode on channels 5 & 10. The high speed channels work the same as all the other relays. For the 2000-SCAN-20 card, we didn't do thorough testing with it as the idea to include support was added only a little before release. If you plan on using the SCAN-20 card, let me know and we can complete the testing, but those cards aren't very common and we haven't received any questions about it so far. Actually, it may work perfectly well, but we can't guarantee that right now.
I was planning to build a DIY Solid state, 10-chan SCAN card (so that I can collect data during the night at home without the dripping tap simulation), but since DMM6500 seems to drive the 20-chan card I changed my design to double the channels (the more the merrier).
I'll let you know if I hit a problem with the DMM6500 behavior,
....
It's alive!!!!
I still need to buy more solid-state relays to populate the rest of the board but what's there seems to work flawlessly (so far), silent and fast. Since I was trying to keep the cost as low as possible (you can tell from the all DIY PCB board), the relays are not the best, the on state resistance of each channel is around 2 Ohm. But it's not a big deal as I have plenty of channels to use kelvin connections if needed. A $12 Atmega32u4 based board is handling all the logic.
(top board: Keithley 2000-Scan with wires attached for protocol sniffing)
(bottom board: DIY 20-chan solid state scan card)
It's alive!!!!A low cost DIY (CozScan 2020) solid state relay solution for DMM6500 :-+
Feature request:
1) A fast way to store the stats of the measurement to USB, I know you can use a screenshot but then you need to store screenshots. You can also not just copy it in a excel file.
Two options:
A) When you take a screenshot with home+enter also write a second file, a csv with the same name.
Beta storage service (initialstate): Anyone using this?
https://www.initialstate.com/keithley/ (https://www.initialstate.com/keithley/)
Beta storage service (initialstate): Anyone using this?
https://www.initialstate.com/keithley/ (https://www.initialstate.com/keithley/)
Feature request:1) Hmm, so a csv of just the buffer stats? We have thought about using buttons as shortcuts for scripts before but ultimately decided not to since the buttons are supposed to be universal across instruments. Scripts are already pretty easy to access with the drop-down menu too, yes? Or not fast enough for you?
1) A fast way to store the stats of the measurement to USB, I know you can use a screenshot but then you need to store screenshots. You can also not just copy it in a excel file.
Two options:
A) When you take a screenshot with home+enter also write a second file, a csv with the same name.
B) Make it possible to link a script to a button, like maybe home+trigger runs a pre-selected script.
and let the script do the needed actions.
(This is maybe a feature on its own that could be useful for all kind of situations.)
2) A feature request for the current measurement mode, show the voltage drop! (burden voltage isn't a second measurement) Now I have to check to be sure it's low enough. (although if not much work I choose my own resistor value)
3) For math y=mx+b, support entering 2 points (like: 4mA=0 and 20mA=7) instead of entering m and b and let it calculate m and b. (maybe this should be a script)
Also an option to change the 'X' to an 3 char that has meaning. (sometimes you forget what you were displaying after reloading the settings)
1) Hmm, so a csv of just the buffer stats? We have thought about using buttons as shortcuts for scripts before but ultimately decided not to since the buttons are supposed to be universal across instruments. Scripts are already pretty easy to access with the drop-down menu too, yes? Or not fast enough for you?1) Yes just the stats also cursors if there are any, can we write a custom csv file to usb with scripts?
2) The DMM6500 doesn't have any internal way to find out what the voltage drop is. The shunt resistors are internally calibrated, but there's also the path resistance which is pretty variable and can't really be measured by internal processes. BUT, you can use the secondary measurement feature to measure voltage drop by shorting INPUT HI to AMPS, that would measure the internal voltage across the current leads. If you choose the 1A or 3A range, there won't be any relay clicking on <100V ranges. OR, you could go a step further and measure the voltage drop out to your DUT by connecting INPUT HI to the high side of your DUT. You could remove the low side path voltage drop by using the rel feature between INPUT HI and your DUT low terminal before swapping to measure voltage between INPUT HI and your DUT high side. Does that make sense? I can draw the process out if you want.
2) The DMM6500 doesn't have any internal way to find out what the voltage drop is. The shunt resistors are internally calibrated, but there's also the path resistance which is pretty variable and can't really be measured by internal processes. BUT, you can use the secondary measurement feature to measure voltage drop by shorting INPUT HI to AMPS, that would measure the internal voltage across the current leads. If you choose the 1A or 3A range, there won't be any relay clicking on <100V ranges. OR, you could go a step further and measure the voltage drop out to your DUT by connecting INPUT HI to the high side of your DUT. You could remove the low side path voltage drop by using the rel feature between INPUT HI and your DUT low terminal before swapping to measure voltage between INPUT HI and your DUT high side. Does that make sense? I can draw the process out if you want.
Yes you can write custom csv files pretty easily using file.open() and file.write(). The next firmware will include support for getting buffer stats of a subset of the buffer, which is how cursor stats work, if not the ability to automatically create those csv files with screenshots.1) Hmm, so a csv of just the buffer stats? We have thought about using buttons as shortcuts for scripts before but ultimately decided not to since the buttons are supposed to be universal across instruments. Scripts are already pretty easy to access with the drop-down menu too, yes? Or not fast enough for you?
1) Yes just the stats also cursors if there are any, can we write a custom csv file to usb with scripts?
Fast, well would be easy if it was present in the same screenshot function so they match an I guess this is little work or risk for firmware.
It sounds like you might just want to set up a limit then? You could estimate at what current you'll start worrying about burden voltage and set up a measurement limit to warn you at that level.2) The DMM6500 doesn't have any internal way to find out what the voltage drop is. The shunt resistors are internally calibrated, but there's also the path resistance which is pretty variable and can't really be measured by internal processes. BUT, you can use the secondary measurement feature to measure voltage drop by shorting INPUT HI to AMPS, that would measure the internal voltage across the current leads. If you choose the 1A or 3A range, there won't be any relay clicking on <100V ranges. OR, you could go a step further and measure the voltage drop out to your DUT by connecting INPUT HI to the high side of your DUT. You could remove the low side path voltage drop by using the rel feature between INPUT HI and your DUT low terminal before swapping to measure voltage between INPUT HI and your DUT high side. Does that make sense? I can draw the process out if you want.2) Hmm I'm going to give that a try, but I don't need to see the exact drop but more like a warning of expected max drop like 2 digits accuracy. Like text in a new tab you update when going there "The burden voltage is about 0.23V at max current in the buffer and 0.52V at full range."
I assume it's possible in a script, maybe with your own measured values.
Ah, my bad on not explaining this, the relay switching will cause brief discontinuities in the AMPS terminal so the Rigol that's not synced to the switching would measure a higher resistance. If you hook a scope up to the terminals you should be able to see this. The discontinuity happens because voltage measurements happen while the current range relay is in the 1A/3A position. So if the relay isn't already in that position it will be forced there. I'm not totally sure all the reasons that position is required, but I believe part of it is to prevent noise from reaching the voltage measurement circuitry.2) The DMM6500 doesn't have any internal way to find out what the voltage drop is. The shunt resistors are internally calibrated, but there's also the path resistance which is pretty variable and can't really be measured by internal processes. BUT, you can use the secondary measurement feature to measure voltage drop by shorting INPUT HI to AMPS, that would measure the internal voltage across the current leads. If you choose the 1A or 3A range, there won't be any relay clicking on <100V ranges. OR, you could go a step further and measure the voltage drop out to your DUT by connecting INPUT HI to the high side of your DUT. You could remove the low side path voltage drop by using the rel feature between INPUT HI and your DUT low terminal before swapping to measure voltage between INPUT HI and your DUT high side. Does that make sense? I can draw the process out if you want.
Tried this measurement method:
Seems to be a difference of 37m\$\Omega\$ less, I'm losing a bit of wire there.
edit: adding 100mA and 10mA range, it isn't working as expected. (relay switching)
The discontinuity happens because voltage measurements happen while the current range relay is in the 1A/3A position. So if the relay isn't already in that position it will be forced there. I'm not totally sure all the reasons that position is required, but I believe part of it is to prevent noise from reaching the voltage measurement circuitry.
So anyway, it's best to use the 1A/3A ranges if you want to continuously measure burden voltage with this method.
Did you use any filter on dmm6500? What's the input impendance of both? Try to use "repeat, count 10", input z 10M \$\Omega\$, 5 NPLCNo filter, just 1PLC it's DC current.
Did you use any filter on dmm6500? What's the input impendance of both? Try to use "repeat, count 10", input z 10M \$\Omega\$, 5 NPLCNo filter, just 1PLC it's DC current.
The DMM6500 spec says 10k \$\Omega\$ so that is 1/1000 000 of the big resistor or it's measuring 10µV. STD: 0.455µV
I tried:Alas! I blame myself for not testing on the correct firmware. Updated version here: https://github.com/tektronix/keithley/blob/master/TSP_Apps/Resistance_Tolerance_Meter.tspa
https://github.com/tektronix/keithley/blob/master/TSP_Apps/Resistance_Tolerance_Meter.tspa
- When starting I get an error, like not correctly initialized.
- When I exit the app the custom buffer stays the selected buffer, maybe this should be set back to the default buffer to avoid this next error.
- I got a few bad reading (high impedance) due to bad contact, so had to press retry but if two follow each other I will not be able to do that.
- It also shows rear terminals in the csv file while I used the front.
Not related to this app, can I make saving the measurements so that the column time is always the first column and the measured value always the second? (makes it easier in excel)
fileVar = file.open("/usb1/savedbuffer.csv", file.MODE_WRITE)
file.write(fileVar, "Relative Time, Reading\n)
for i = 1, defbuffer1.n do
file.write(fileVar, defbuffer1.relativetimestamps[i]..","..defbuffer1.readings[i].."\n")
end
file.close(fileVar)
- Hmm, should unlimited re-tests be allowed? Was the bad contact just due to it taking a reading while you were still setting up or something else?For my test I pressed through the isolation of a resistor matrix PCB.
--TODO Please insert code here.
if file.usbdriveexists() == 0 then --
display.prompt(display.BUTTONS_OK, "Please insert a USB flash drive into the front-panel USB port.")
display.waitevent()
delay(1.5) -- Wait some time for the USB to be mounted
end
if defbuffer1.n >0 and file.usbdriveexists() != 0 then
statsVar = buffer.getstats(defbuffer1)
desciption=display.input.string("Description",display.SFORMAT_ANY)
fileVar = file.open("/usb1/"..desciption..".csv", file.MODE_WRITE)
file.write(fileVar, "Mean:,"..statsVar.mean.."\n")
file.write(fileVar, "StdDev:,"..statsVar.stddev.."\n")
file.write(fileVar, "Min:,"..statsVar.min.reading.."\n")
file.write(fileVar, "Max:,"..statsVar.max.reading.."\n")
file.write(fileVar, "Relative Time, Reading,,"..desciption.."\n")
for i = 1, defbuffer1.n do
file.write(fileVar, defbuffer1.relativetimestamps[i]..","..defbuffer1.readings[i]..","..defbuffer1.units[i].. "\n")
end
file.close(fileVar)
beeper.beep(0.1, 1000) -- ready beep
else
beeper.beep(0.5, 100) -- fail beep
end function set_dci_range()
optionID = display.input.option("Select current range", "1A", "100mA", "10mA", "1mA",
"100uA", "10uA")
if optionID == display.BUTTON_OPTION1 then -- 1A
return 1.0
elseif optionID == display.BUTTON_OPTION2 then -- 100mA
return 100e-3
...How can I make it wait for the ok button?and
It asks the input field even before I presses ok if no USB drive is present. (multiple pop-ups)
Because there is no option given, only an OK button, hence I know what they pressed, I only need to wait until they are ready to continue.You only call the ok-button to display, but don't ask when it is pressed, if I understand you correctly. So, option should be "button pressed".
...
promptID, result = display.waitevent()
...
display.prompt(display.BUTTONS_OK, "some text")
promptID, result = display.waitevent()
if result == display.BUTTON_OK then
...display.waitevent()You can also check which button was pressed but since there was only one I didn't wrote if result==display.BUTTON_OK then because this will always be true.
This function causes the instrument to wait for a user to respond to a prompt that was created with a prompt
command.
Which reminds me, unfortunately the release of the next firmware has been delayed until the end of May. The team was really hoping to get it out by the end of March but it just wasn't ready with all the features we wanted in it.
So 6500 has upto 170mV burden voltage for upto 10mA range and 7510 has upto 15mV. How to gauge how low is "good enough" for dynamic current measurements, since lower is obviously better?That is just going to depend on your circuit and possibly where you take your reading. Say your device runs on a battery, and after that battery is some kind of voltage regulator. If you take the reading between the battery and the voltage regulator, and your regulator can still provide an acceptable voltage to your circuit regardless of the voltage burden, it might not matter at all.
The very low burden for the 7510 in the low current ranges is due to using a TIA and not just a shunt.I suspected that, but I did not see official information anywhere. Do you have any document?
Only a strong suspicion, based on the data - it gets very hard to impossible to get that good performance with just with a very small shunt. A TIA makes absolute sense for the small currents, below some 100 µA. In the 10 mA range it's possibly though not that attractive due to self heating of the sensing resistor.The very low burden for the 7510 in the low current ranges is due to using a TIA and not just a shunt.I suspected that, but I did not see official information anywhere. Do you have any document?
Hey KedasProbe, can I put that script on our GithHub repo for you? I also see a couple small improvements I can make.Sure, but i changed the code:
-- $Title: Save Measurement with Statistics
-- $Product: DAQ6510, DMM6500
-- $Description: Save default buffer (defbuffer1) with basic statistics info
if file.usbdriveexists() == 0 then --
display.prompt(display.BUTTONS_OK, "Please insert a USB flash drive into the front-panel USB port.")
result = display.waitevent() -- result isn't used, always button 'ok'
loopcount = 0
while (file.usbdriveexists() == 0 and loopcount<8) -- Wait up to 4 sec for the USB to be mounted after 'ok'
do
loopcount = loopcount + 1
delay(0.5)
end
end
sep="," -- separator ',' used in the csv file.
--sep=" " --tab may be preferred.
if defbuffer1.n > 0 and file.usbdriveexists() != 0 then
statsVar = buffer.getstats(defbuffer1)
description = display.input.string("Description",display.SFORMAT_ANY)
fileVar = file.open("/usb1/"..description ..".csv", file.MODE_WRITE)
strunit=defbuffer1.units[1]
file.write(fileVar, "Relative Time"..sep.."Reading ("..strunit..")"..sep..sep..description .."\n")
if defbuffer1.n > 4 then
starti = 5
file.write(fileVar, defbuffer1.relativetimestamps[1]..sep..defbuffer1.readings[1]..sep..sep.."Mean:"..sep..statsVar.mean.."\n")
file.write(fileVar, defbuffer1.relativetimestamps[2]..sep..defbuffer1.readings[2]..sep..sep.."StdDev:"..sep..statsVar.stddev.."\n")
file.write(fileVar, defbuffer1.relativetimestamps[3]..sep..defbuffer1.readings[3]..sep..sep.."Min:"..sep..statsVar.min.reading.."\n")
file.write(fileVar, defbuffer1.relativetimestamps[4]..sep..defbuffer1.readings[4]..sep..sep.."Max:"..sep..statsVar.max.reading.."\n")
else
starti = 1
end
for i = starti, defbuffer1.n do
file.write(fileVar, defbuffer1.relativetimestamps[i]..sep..defbuffer1.readings[i].. "\n")
end
file.close(fileVar)
beeper.beep(0.1, 1000) -- ready beep
else
beeper.beep(0.5, 100) -- fail beep
end KICKSTART 2.1.0 released
https://www.tek.com/software/kickstart/2-1-0 (https://www.tek.com/software/kickstart/2-1-0)
Is it possible to remove an obj swipe screen as part of a function to restore normal operation when leaving a script? Trying various methods usually locks up the meter.
dmm.measure.func = dmm.FUNC_RESISTANCE
display.clear()
display.changescreen(display.SCREEN_USER_SWIPE)
defaultA = 1.027628774E-3
defaultB = 2.393890857E-4
defaultC = 1.555947964E-7
a = display.input.number("Coefficient A", display.NFORMAT_EXPONENT, defaultA)
b = display.input.number("Coefficient B", display.NFORMAT_EXPONENT, defaultB)
c = display.input.number("Coefficient C", display.NFORMAT_EXPONENT, defaultC)
button = display.input.option("Unit", "\19C", "\19F", "\19K")
while (true)
do
logR = math.log(dmm.measure.read())
kelvin = 1. / (a + b * logR + c * (math.pow(logR, 3.)))
celsius = kelvin - 273.15
fahrenheit = (celsius * 9. / 5.) + 32.
if (button == display.BUTTON_OPTION1) or (button == nil) then
text = string.format("%.3f \19C", celsius)
elseif button == display.BUTTON_OPTION2 then
text = string.format("%.3f \19F", fahrenheit)
else
text = string.format("%.3f \19K", kelvin)
end
display.settext(display.TEXT1, text)
end
Is there a way to get DCV + ACV readings at the same time without the relay constantly clicking between them?
For EU folks, what's the cheapest online price including taxes for it?I saw Farrell is selling it cheap. 808euro (excl. tax)
Thanks!And cheers from France :)
Yeah, I saw that discussion when cruising through the thread search for "relay," but that's for voltage + current whereas I'm looking for voltage + voltage. I'd be perfectly happy with a similar solution but even after a bit of fiddling with the ranges I still haven't been able to figure out a click-less combination.The only good solution to avoid relays is to buy 2 DMM6500 ;)
Is there a way to get DCV + ACV readings at the same time without the relay constantly clicking between them?
You probably meant that as a joke, but right now I have my DMM6500 in parallel with my 34401a for exactly that reason.Yeah, I saw that discussion when cruising through the thread search for "relay," but that's for voltage + current whereas I'm looking for voltage + voltage. I'd be perfectly happy with a similar solution but even after a bit of fiddling with the ranges I still haven't been able to figure out a click-less combination.The only good solution to avoid relays is to buy 2 DMM6500 ;)
For AC + DC there is in theory a way: use the digitizer mode and statistics functions: The average voltage gives the DC value and the std. deviation is equal to the RMS for pure AC. The geometric sum gives AC+DC RMS - this could likely be done in a short script.It might just come to that.
I am after AC/DC, not I/V ;)
What's the deal with the Keithley 2000 being sold new at higher prices than the DMM6500?
Greediness.The same shops carry both, so I guess that's not it.
The same shops carry both, so I guess that's not it.
Wow, I thought you were talking about NOS on ebay, not shops... Didn't know it's still on sale, I thought it was obsolete more than 10 years ago. Amazing.It's been the current model until the DMM6500 came out recently. It's obviously still being sold and by high volume sellers too. Those understand the value of shelf space and turnover and won't leave old models laying about in the hopes of selling them at an unrealistic price, so I assume I'm overlooking a demand for them.
Those understand the value of shelf space and turnover and won't leave old models laying about in the hopes of selling them at an unrealistic price, so I assume I'm overlooking a demand for them.
I would like to use my DMM6500 to make general purpose temperature measurements (air, heatsink, liquid etc.).
I read that using a 4 wire RTD is the best way to go about it for accuracy but I'm not sure if the meter has a built in Cold Junction Compensation feature.
Can someone assist me with this?
I would like to use my DMM6500 to make general purpose temperature measurements (air, heatsink, liquid etc.).
I read that using a 4 wire RTD is the best way to go about it for accuracy but I'm not sure if the meter has a built in Cold Junction Compensation feature.
Can someone assist me with this?
You need cold junction compensation for thermocouples. RTD's are resistors, don't need it.
Greediness.The same shops carry both, so I guess that's not it.
How do i set the CJC since I am currently using a K-type thermocouple? Manual was too complicated I need a simpler guide.
How do i set the CJC since I am currently using a K-type thermocouple? Manual was too complicated I need a simpler guide.
Unless you have a scanner card, you can only use the simulated CJC. Best way I know to calibrate a K-Type is with an insulated cup full of ice with water added ( then wait about 5 mins). Set your simulated cold junction to 0C/32F. Then continuously stir the ice water with the thermocouple inside. Use the relative calculation to compensate to 0C/32F once you have the temperature stabilized. Record the relative value and put it on a tape/label and attach to the thermocouple so you don't have to do the calibration again in the future.
Or just buy a 4-wire PT100 RTD. Plug it in, and your pretty much done. You can go through the calibration procedure above, but they are pretty much spot on from my experience.
Is it the same on your device? Has this changed with the new firmware?
Hello, I´m searching for a bench multimeter and received a DMM6500 from my supplyer. I´m quiet happy with it, but there is one thing i noticed: There is no exact information about the measurement in full screen mode. It just shows V instead of Vdc or Vac. If the slider tab is active it shows "AC Voltage: Front". I miss this information on the full screen mode. The firmware version of my device is 1.0.01f.They do have free space to keep the text bar above with this info visible. (they even have free room for the range without changing the size of the reading)
Is it the same on your device? Has this changed with the new firmware?
I make a living in a field where most PC-related stuff after XP is regarded as unsuited for reliable long time data logging, so Kickstart on a modern laptop PC is not a first choice for me.This is not a problem.
1) Can I get the calibration data after I have the serial number? If so, how?
2) Is there a free Kickstart now? Or a test license?
Is there a way to use the USB drive as a Buffer to store more readings or does the DMM6500 only support saving the existing readings onto a USB flash drive?
Is there a way to use the USB drive as a Buffer to store more readings or does the DMM6500 only support saving the existing readings onto a USB flash drive?
Does it make noise in standby?Not fan noise because they are off but you can hear the mains hum. (hence my question)
Some more information for you guys! :)What took you that long ;) nice to get some extra example of configuring a trigger and yes FFT please :)
You can watch the video here: [48 Minutes]
youtu.be/Lezd27BzQLo (https://youtu.be/Lezd27BzQLo)
But the very most of them you can do with dmm6500 and scancard too? :popcorn:A K2000 or DMM6500 with scan card is effectively a DAQ, unless I'm missing something.
But the very most of them you can do with dmm6500 and scancard too? :popcorn:A K2000 or DMM6500 with scan card is effectively a DAQ, unless I'm missing something.
Yes. One can use other and more scancards (Firmware). But the measuring, triggersystem and possibilities is apparently identical?But the very most of them you can do with dmm6500 and scancard too? :popcorn:A K2000 or DMM6500 with scan card is effectively a DAQ, unless I'm missing something.
Some more information for you guys! :)What took you that long ;) nice to get some extra example of configuring a trigger and yes FFT please :)
You can watch the video here: [48 Minutes]
youtu.be/Lezd27BzQLo (https://youtu.be/Lezd27BzQLo)
...
I couldn't justify the extra price for the DAQ6510 + Cards though, most of it is present in the DMM6500 and I would probably not use the cards very often assuming I would buy one.
edit: Also the DMM6500 has a 10A input at the back while the DAQ6510 is limited to 3A with a high burden voltage.
although there is a serious flaw with that either in hardware or software (not sure which since Keithley went dead silent after I pointed it out to them). I can only guess its in the hardware, but who knows since they won't discuss it.Could you clarify the details of this problem?
Could you clarify the details of this problem?
here is the setup and pics below.How exactly do you connect the device?
here is the setup and pics below.How exactly do you connect the device?
For 6500 there is a limit: "Sense terminals on inputs are limited to 10 V range during ratio measurement."
here is the setup and pics below.How exactly do you connect the device?
For 6500 there is a limit: "Sense terminals on inputs are limited to 10 V range during ratio measurement."
No sense terminals are used. The circuit diagram shows the connection points, and the polarity of the measurements in the pictures confirms which terminals I used.
Here are some pics. Hopefully the wire colors make it clearer.
I would love if someone else could confirm my findings, since I still really don't know if it is just isolated to my particular unit. There really is nothing I can find to explain the behavior, and my test setup is identical between two different meters.
Also, there is of course no problem measuring current or voltage separately (meaning either a connection to the Amp input or to the HI input, but not both simultaneously).
I wonder if this has something to do with the relay timings and/or measurement delays. Have you tried with different integration times (NPLC, repeat filters etc)?
I tried the same thing as your setup. Both with a battery and with a power supply. I could not replicate the issue. The instrument reports the correct results.
Very strange! Can you check (with a separate meter across the battery) if DMM6500 is reporting incorrect voltage? Presumably that is the case since the current does not change as you switch the voltage range.
If so, it could be a error in their switch matrix for different ranges.
There are no relays switching during the testing, except when you manually choose the 100V range (no relay switching occurs on the 1A/3A/10A ranges with simultaneous measurements). NPLC/filter has no effect. You do not have to technically even be doing a simultaneous measurement, it will occur only measuring voltage. But the circuit has to be wired up to do a simultaneous V/I measurement: Common LO, amp input near the low side of circuit, HI input where appropriate. Anyways, alot of people here have actual DMM6550, and it is a simple enough circuit to duplicate.
It can of course be done using a power supply and electronic load as well, just better to make sure you are pulling around 1A or above. It is not really apparent at all if you are only drawing say 1mA.
I see the same problem: In DC voltage mode if you pass some current through the amps-common connectors, the voltage is misreported. Passing 1A through the amps terminal causes ~ -45mV error in voltage measurement in 10V range, and ~-2.6V error in 100V and 1000V ranges. Halving the current causes the voltage measurement error to halve too.
There seems to be a cross-talk from amps circuit in voltage mode indeed.
I couldn't fall asleep, so I went and tried it again.
I can confirm that I see the problem with the DAQ6510 as well. At 1A there is an offset of -2.6V present in the 100V range and about 80mV in ranges < 100V.
I will discuss this with my Keithley support contact.
I couldn't fall asleep, so I went and tried it again.
I can confirm that I see the problem with the DAQ6510 as well. At 1A there is an offset of -2.6V present in the 100V range and about 80mV in ranges < 100V.
I will discuss this with my Keithley support contact.
Thanks for checking again and confirming. I have to say I was kind of hoping the DAQ wouldn't have the problem as well.
I also tested with the rear terminals: If you use the rear 10Amp therminal, the error in voltage reading is around only -5mV in all ranges. Rear 3Amp terminal behaves the same as the front terminals: -2.6V error for 1A in 100V range.If the error is present at some level on all current and voltage ranges it suggests a problem with the ground reference point. This might not be so easy to fix. Even a 5 mV error is well outside the spec on most ranges. I wonder if it says in the manual somewhere that simultaneous current flow and voltage measurements are not allowed. Or perhaps in the process of simplifying the design of the DMM7510 they went a bit too far.
If this is a problem for all DMM6500 meters and even exists to a significant extend on the 10V (and perhaps other) ranges, its a fairly major flaw. Its surprising it took over a year since the instrument was introduced to discover it. These boards really help to ferret out the flaws.
This might not be so easy to fix. Even a 5 mV error is well outside the spec on most ranges. I wonder if it says in the manual somewhere that simultaneous current flow and voltage measurements are not allowed.
When measuring current, one should sense voltage directly across the current shunt. When measuring voltage, one should sense voltage directly across input terminals. One possibility is that they "saved" on one switch that moves the ground reference of the ADC from one point to the other, so it now includes a voltage drop across some internal traces.
When measuring current, one should sense voltage directly across the current shunt. When measuring voltage, one should sense voltage directly across input terminals. One possibility is that they "saved" on one switch that moves the ground reference of the ADC from one point to the other, so it now includes a voltage drop across some internal traces.
A year back this poster showed similar results - aprox 0.3V/1Amp.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg1781402/#msg1781402 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg1781402/#msg1781402)
Does anyone have link to the manual that shows this setup?
Couldn't find it myself.
I'm curious to know how this is supposed to work with a shared common terminal without introducing errors.
Ah, my bad on not explaining this, the relay switching will cause brief discontinuities in the AMPS terminal so the Rigol that's not synced to the switching would measure a higher resistance. If you hook a scope up to the terminals you should be able to see this. The discontinuity happens because voltage measurements happen while the current range relay is in the 1A/3A position. So if the relay isn't already in that position it will be forced there. I'm not totally sure all the reasons that position is required, but I believe part of it is to prevent noise from reaching the voltage measurement circuitry.
So anyway, it's best to use the 1A/3A ranges if you want to continuously measure burden voltage with this method.
Found yours, There you show two separate gnd lines from the voltage and the current meter, in reality
it is one and any voltage drop on it (caused by the current flow) wil add (or subtract rather) to your
voltage reading.
Inside the meter there is also voltage drop on the current shunt and fuse also introducing error unless
they switch around the gnd-ref point for the adc.
Dave's 121gw also has a similar "feature".
Hi,
I tested it with my DMM6500 but I simplified the schematic a little (yes that's possible)
I just connected a current source to the DMM6500 and shorted the voltage terminals with 50 Ohm.
So I should get 0 Volt all the time
Edit: I did see about the same sourcing 1A from one of the SMU when I tried. I like this method, but I wanted to post what I thought was simpler: a 9V battery and a 10Ohm resistor. I would guess that a lot of people don't actually have a precision current source (but have batteries and voltage sources) and my goal was to have as many people as possible test their DMM6500.I'm pretty sure anyone with a DMM6500/DAQ6510 has a power supply with max. current protection.
I'm pretty sure anyone with a DMM6500/DAQ6510 has a power supply with max. current protection.
That's what you see in my video, the max current protection doing its job.
OK, let's not argue. JxR gets the credit of finding this flaw after a lot of people used the meter for a year.
I guess the next question is what should we do about it. All start requesting warranty service from Keithley for our meters?Simple we push until we get a good answer. ;)
Simple we push until we get a good answer. ;)Thanks. I put in a reply to the topic as well.
You will see I added the link of the tek forum in the description of the youtube video.
It's their support forum they should use it wisely.
Could be one of the reasons why their latest firmware update is delayed.I admit I have wondered about this myself.
I just tested Keysight 34470 in this way. It has an -81 mV offset for 1 A current on 3 A terminal and -4mV offset on 10 A terminal. But these numbers don't change on any voltage ranges.
Anyway, when there is a current flowing, the voltage reading is no longer valid. This could be annoying when using the dual measurement mode. Anyway a shared terminal should also be suspicious.
Maybe somebody can test an HP3458 in this way for reference.I just tested Keysight 34470 in this way. It has an -81 mV offset for 1 A current on 3 A terminal and -4mV offset on 10 A terminal. But these numbers don't change on any voltage ranges.The DMM7510 was -35mV on the 3A terminal in all voltage ranges, and -3.5mV in all voltage ranges on the 10A terminal with a 1A source.
There probably is nothing that can be done about it - it kind of a HW point. It is quite normal to have the actual central ground point at the "negative" side of the shunt chain. So there is a drop to the common terminal and this is measured.This is certainly the easiest way to do it, but on a meter that can do 4-wire Ohms measurement it should be possible to move the ground reference of the ADC closer to the input terminal.
Maybe somebody can test an HP3458 in this way for reference.
Thus it is not a drop on the shunt or a 100V range defect, but the 6.7V is the voltage of the battery when loaded by the 10ohm. You may try to connect the 10ohm directly to the battery and measure the voltage at the battery.
I tried two other meters:
Keithley 2015 THD: 14.5mV offset is observed on all scales. It is constant.
Keysight 34470A: 75mV offset is observed on all scales. It is constant.
I can try this on several other models (Keysight, Rigol, Siglent, etc.) if you guys really want to see. :-//
Did you short out (or put some resistor) across the voltage inputs of the meters? Otherwise, they do read zero but its not an accurate representation of what happens if some voltage source is connected.
Did you short out (or put some resistor) across the voltage inputs of the meters? Otherwise, they do read zero but its not an accurate representation of what happens if some voltage source is connected.
No, I forgot to short them, hence why on low ranges they were collecting charge (GOhms). But they behaved exactly the same when nothing is connected (also to current input) so I assume it is fine. DMM6500 was also tested the same way and yet it showed 2.5V out of nowhere, on 10MOhm ranges that don't accumulate that much charge.
Rigol DM3068 also didn't measure anything without shorting voltage input. I guess when shorted, we measure internal voltage drop on that branch of ground caused by current flow...When you try second measurement on the DM3068 it shows a pop-up message on the screen that voltage measurement and current measurement can not be combined. Although I think they designed it with the possibility in mind and disabled it later.
It all means pretty much nothing. It is using meter outside intended use..
Fact that you can program it, doesn't mean you can do what hardware wasn't meant to do...
What would be the typical "use cases" for such a setup (provided all work fine) with one common terminal? Normally, I would expect something like - to measure a voltage between the nodes A and B, and the current in any wire in my wiring. Thus I would need V+ V- and I+ and I- terminals, all floating.
I've attached a short clip demonstrating how the instrument is totally unresponsive. I can't be the only one having these issues right?It seems like a malfunction of the device.
This DMM is completely unusable and extremely frustrating!Seems like your DMM want repair.
I use 6500 about 1 year - all works fine, captivate touch is very sensitive, and working on all my touches.
This DMM is completely unusable and extremely frustrating! |O
This can't possibly be right!
I've attached a short clip demonstrating how the instrument is totally unresponsive. I can't be the only one having these issues right?
https://mega.nz/#!MZURjIxQ!z3RixZ78lUd9IsXTKDPOkJ3QRNn7nYZNAlUjnb4h_-4
This DMM is completely unusable and extremely frustrating! |O
This can't possibly be right!
I've attached a short clip demonstrating how the instrument is totally unresponsive. I can't be the only one having these issues right?
https://mega.nz/#!MZURjIxQ!z3RixZ78lUd9IsXTKDPOkJ3QRNn7nYZNAlUjnb4h_-4
The firmware has rough edges, looks like people at Keithley made sure that the main use cases are mostly error free but if you go well outside the typical use cases it misbehaves. When I got my unit early this year it was crashing/freezing multiple times a day, probably because I was clicking the buttons, doing things outside of the typical use scenarios. After my learning phase ended the problems went away.
There are known issues, one is with swap screen and some scripts and applications. Brad O. said somewhere above that they were hoping to get a new firmware late March 2019 but that didn't happen and he got silent recently. Hope they are still working on a bug-fix firmware to be released sometime soon.
Anyhow if you installed some apps, scripts, especially a startup script, you may want to do a system reset and check again. With the current firmware it's easy to put the unit in an unstable state.
I've noticed that the placement of the DMM6500 affects this issue. When it was placed on a shelf as can be seen in the video, the issue appears. Now that I have it placed on my wooden computer desk it is back to working normally again :wtf:
My theory is that the surface of whatever the DMM is sitting on and/or my position relative to the DMM is somehow affecting the capacitance of my finger which results in a functional or non function touchscreen :-//
Have I gone mad or does this make any sense?
It could be a grounding issue. The touch-screen may work better if the instrument is properly grounded ( PE via the mains cable).I've noticed that the placement of the DMM6500 affects this issue. When it was placed on a shelf as can be seen in the video, the issue appears. Now that I have it placed on my wooden computer desk it is back to working normally again :wtf:
My theory is that the surface of whatever the DMM is sitting on and/or my position relative to the DMM is somehow affecting the capacitance of my finger which results in a functional or non function touchscreen :-//
Have I gone mad or does this make any sense?
Never-mind, the problem is the power source.
For some reason it works fine when powered from the wall socket in my bedroom but not in another room :-//
How does this make any sense?! Could it be that the instrument does not work properly when power from one of the 3 phases powering my house? Could it be a question of harmonics disturbing the sensitive components inside the meter?
I tried isolating the unit form the mains by powering it up from a pure sinewave inverter using a lead acid battery but the issue persisted.
!!!!DANGEROUS!!!!
Hi dear Brad O.
Hardware bug report:
DMM6500 do not compatible with Keithley 4299-9 Dual Fixed Rack-Mount Kit for 2U Graphical Display Instruments.
When i install front rack ear, down screw cannot install properly. That screew is too long and break current sense terminal if install it on full lenght.
PS.I use nut as spacer, for install that screw to proper letght... but it bad way... you need fix dmm6500! With 2450 that ear install's properly.
It could be a grounding issue. The touch-screen may work better if the instrument is properly grounded ( PE via the mains cable).I've noticed that the placement of the DMM6500 affects this issue. When it was placed on a shelf as can be seen in the video, the issue appears. Now that I have it placed on my wooden computer desk it is back to working normally again :wtf:
My theory is that the surface of whatever the DMM is sitting on and/or my position relative to the DMM is somehow affecting the capacitance of my finger which results in a functional or non function touchscreen :-//
Have I gone mad or does this make any sense?
Never-mind, the problem is the power source.
For some reason it works fine when powered from the wall socket in my bedroom but not in another room :-//
How does this make any sense?! Could it be that the instrument does not work properly when power from one of the 3 phases powering my house? Could it be a question of harmonics disturbing the sensitive components inside the meter?
I tried isolating the unit form the mains by powering it up from a pure sinewave inverter using a lead acid battery but the issue persisted.
How can I tell if the touchscreen is the culprit or a bad firmware?
It could be a grounding issue. The touch-screen may work better if the instrument is properly grounded ( PE via the mains cable).
That could very well be the case, however the issue is that in Lebanon we do not install a ground connection for in residences so how can I properly ground the instrument to assure the touchscreen would work properly?
Could I create an artificial ground somehow?
It could be a grounding issue. The touch-screen may work better if the instrument is properly grounded ( PE via the mains cable).
That could very well be the case, however the issue is that in Lebanon we do not install a ground connection for in residences so how can I properly ground the instrument to assure the touchscreen would work properly?
Could I create an artificial ground somehow?
You could use any metal plumbing in your house, but this may be illegal and could be dangerous when the dmm6500
develops a short circuit between mains and ground, at least wire in a 30mA rcd.
Better is using a separate grounding rod if soil conditions allow (wet and soft is ideal, dry and hard is not).
Dear drummerdimitri, try connect your hand via anti-static wrist straps to DMM chassis. Before that check resistance of the cord, it must be 1M or large.
If major cause is grounding, you should see changes.....
All my equipment, rack's, table mat and all power source has been grounded, i can't check DMM without ground.
All our plumbing is plastic, does that mean the only option is to stick a grounding rod in soil? How exactly will the power connections look like? Please explain :-//
The power cord supplied with the DMM6500 contains a separate protective earth (safety ground) wire for use with grounded outlets. When proper connections are made, the
instrument chassis is connected to power-line ground through the ground wire in the power cord. In the event of a failure, not using a properly grounded protective earth and grounded outlet may result in personal injury or death due to electric shock.
Special Price €760.00
Regular Price €950.00
cnrood is selling it for 760Euro (excl. tax)
Basically you are buying tax free compared to the 950Euro list price. (-20%)
https://www.cnrood.com/en/dmm6500-6-digit-touchscreen-multimeter (https://www.cnrood.com/en/dmm6500-6-digit-touchscreen-multimeter)QuoteSpecial Price €760.00
Regular Price €950.00
cnrood is selling it for 760Euro (excl. tax)
Basically you are buying tax free compared to the 950Euro list price. (-20%)
https://www.cnrood.com/en/dmm6500-6-digit-touchscreen-multimeter (https://www.cnrood.com/en/dmm6500-6-digit-touchscreen-multimeter)QuoteSpecial Price €760.00
Regular Price €950.00
How can I tell if the touchscreen is the culprit or a bad firmware?
Easy, when you have a buttons that do not respond anymore, go to the webinterface an try to click it with your mouse.
If it works you know it's the touchscreen.
(keep in mind that dragging with the mouse doesn't work very well, so you cannot test that)
And also if you pressed "copy to power up" in run scripts with a bad script it could put it in a bad situation every time you reboot. (not sure if that is erased with a reset or if you have to overwrite it)
Attached the default "empty script" you can load. (remove .txt)
How to remove the .txt extension? I cannot just rename it in windows 10 :-//Is it a win10 question?
How to remove the .txt extension? I cannot just rename it in windows 10 :-//Is it a win10 question?
Switch on the extensions here:
Thanks but it doesn't really help when it's in German!Really, some initiative would help.
Thanks but it doesn't really help when it's in German!
How can I tell if the touchscreen is the culprit or a bad firmware?
Easy, when you have a buttons that do not respond anymore, go to the webinterface an try to click it with your mouse.
If it works you know it's the touchscreen.
(keep in mind that dragging with the mouse doesn't work very well, so you cannot test that)
And also if you pressed "copy to power up" in run scripts with a bad script it could put it in a bad situation every time you reboot. (not sure if that is erased with a reset or if you have to overwrite it)
Attached the default "empty script" you can load. (remove .txt)
In GPIB this should be simple, but I would like to try to do something with a Raspberry Pi "tablet" I had shelved away. I bought an RJ45 cable and got the DMM6500 web front panel up on the RPi display. The RPi has Python installed.
You can't use LXI(RJ45 Jack) with RPi's and Python. PyVISA library require a NI-VISA software. But NI-VISA do not support RPi's :palm:
Try use my code of LXIIDL software(link below) as example written on "C" language or see code of lxitools (https://lxi-tools.github.io/).
You can't use LXI(RJ45 Jack) with RPi's and Python. PyVISA library require a NI-VISA software. But NI-VISA do not support RPi's :palm:
Yes, that python-vxi11. When I tested with 6221 or B2987A I did not use E5810A, but direct RJ45 connection to these instruments.
...
Yes, that python-vxi11. When I tested with 6221 or B2987A I did not use E5810A, but direct RJ45 connection to these instruments.
...
Thank you very much. This will be my first goal.
import vxi11
import serial
dmm6500 = vxi11.Instrument("169.254.13.238")
daq34970a = serial.Serial('com6',9600)
print(dmm6500.ask("*IDN?"))
print(dmm6500.ask("*TST?"))
print(dmm6500.ask("MEAS?"))
counter = 1
while (counter <= 2):
if (daq34970a.inWaiting()>0):
myData = daq34970a.readline()
print myData
counter = counter + 1
print(dmm6500.ask("MEAS?"))
Python 2.7.16 (v2.7.16:413a49145e, Mar 4 2019, 01:30:55) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)] on win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license()" for more information.
>>>
=========== RESTART: C:/Python27/Scripts/first_vxi11_and_serial.py ===========
KEITHLEY INSTRUMENTS,MODEL DMM6500,04421494,1.0.04b
0
7.134677E+00
1.7491438
1.7708930
7.134674E+00
>>>
So it turned out that I received this calibration document. I believe that this is useful and interesting for everyone. I do not have much experience using this device. But something seems to be true, and repeated very well.Hi MikeP,
Brad, maybe this is not a very stupid recommendation - to make cursors with different colors.
Thanks.
Would you mind to tell me how to get the DMM6500 calibration data report ?I got mine through the seller. Just wrote him an email and ask me to send it. They sent PDF very quickly.
Thanks this is very helpful.Would you mind to tell me how to get the DMM6500 calibration data report ?I got mine through the seller. Just wrote him an email and ask me to send it. They sent PDF very quickly.
I have blown the 3.5A internal fuse :palm: and can't find a suitable replacement locally.You mean this one?
Does anyone know who sources these and ships internationally? Can't seem to find them anywhere :-//
I have blown the 3.5A internal fuse :palm: and can't find a suitable replacement locally.
Does anyone know who sources these and ships internationally? Can't seem to find them anywhere :-//
Shouldn't the other one in front have blown first, or did both go?
Is a bit pointless to have a weaker fuse inside than the one that you can easy replace in front.
I have blown the 3.5A internal fuse :palm: and can't find a suitable replacement locally.You mean this one?
Does anyone know who sources these and ships internationally? Can't seem to find them anywhere :-//
Shouldn't be that hard to find a similar one.
https://xdevs.com/doc/Keithley/DMM6500/lukier/dciove.jpg
(This reminds you of 56k dialup modems ;) )
Shouldn't the other one in front have blown first, or did both go?
Is a bit pointless to have a weaker fuse inside than the one that you can easy replace in front.
I have blown the 3.5A internal fuse :palm: and can't find a suitable replacement locally.
Does anyone know who sources these and ships internationally? Can't seem to find them anywhere :-//
I had blown mine, too. It was hard to find the 3.5A, but a Ebay seller from GB has them:
https://www.ebay.de/itm/SIBA-Fuse-Multimeter-5019906-3-5A-DMM-1000V-AC-DC-Ultra-Rapid-50-199-06-JPSF068/281684545646?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 (https://www.ebay.de/itm/SIBA-Fuse-Multimeter-5019906-3-5A-DMM-1000V-AC-DC-Ultra-Rapid-50-199-06-JPSF068/281684545646?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649)
I have blown the 3.5A internal fuse :palm: and can't find a suitable replacement locally.
Does anyone know who sources these and ships internationally? Can't seem to find them anywhere :-//
I had blown mine, too. It was hard to find the 3.5A, but a Ebay seller from GB has them:
https://www.ebay.de/itm/SIBA-Fuse-Multimeter-5019906-3-5A-DMM-1000V-AC-DC-Ultra-Rapid-50-199-06-JPSF068/281684545646?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 (https://www.ebay.de/itm/SIBA-Fuse-Multimeter-5019906-3-5A-DMM-1000V-AC-DC-Ultra-Rapid-50-199-06-JPSF068/281684545646?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649)
I found that link too. Unfortunately they don't ship to Lebanon so I'm screwed :palm:
I have blown the 3.5A internal fuse :palm: and can't find a suitable replacement locally.
Does anyone know who sources these and ships internationally? Can't seem to find them anywhere :-//
I had blown mine, too. It was hard to find the 3.5A, but a Ebay seller from GB has them:
https://www.ebay.de/itm/SIBA-Fuse-Multimeter-5019906-3-5A-DMM-1000V-AC-DC-Ultra-Rapid-50-199-06-JPSF068/281684545646?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 (https://www.ebay.de/itm/SIBA-Fuse-Multimeter-5019906-3-5A-DMM-1000V-AC-DC-Ultra-Rapid-50-199-06-JPSF068/281684545646?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649)
I found that link too. Unfortunately they don't ship to Lebanon so I'm screwed :palm:
I just ordered 2 from the ebay link above. I would not mind posting one of them to you using normal mail ?
(just checked, mail to Lebanon from Denmark is Euro 4,-)
Let me know....
I have blown the 3.5A internal fuse :palm: and can't find a suitable replacement locally.
Does anyone know who sources these and ships internationally? Can't seem to find them anywhere :-//
I had blown mine, too. It was hard to find the 3.5A, but a Ebay seller from GB has them:
https://www.ebay.de/itm/SIBA-Fuse-Multimeter-5019906-3-5A-DMM-1000V-AC-DC-Ultra-Rapid-50-199-06-JPSF068/281684545646?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 (https://www.ebay.de/itm/SIBA-Fuse-Multimeter-5019906-3-5A-DMM-1000V-AC-DC-Ultra-Rapid-50-199-06-JPSF068/281684545646?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649)
I found that link too. Unfortunately they don't ship to Lebanon so I'm screwed :palm:
I just ordered 2 from the ebay link above. I would not mind posting one of them to you using normal mail ?
(just checked, mail to Lebanon from Denmark is Euro 4,-)
Let me know....
That would be great thanks!
I would need at least 3 pieces just in case this happens again.
Would you be willing to order more? How would I pay you for them+shipping?
KickStart 2.1.1 released
https://download.tek.com/software/supporting_files/Kickstart_2_1_1_RN_26_Sep_19_KICKSTART-2.1.1.pdf
Windows 10, 64 bit.maybe the network security settings in your DMM6500 are too strict?
Most software recognises the device (e.g.: LabVIEW, the device's own web interface.)
Kickstart recognises it when I link it to the network, but throws the above error whenever it tries to talk to the device.
Is there a way to get the DMM6500 to log also the secondary reading ?
When enabled, the csv file still only contains the primary value, is there a way to enable the secondary in the log ?
(I only sample with 3 samples pr second, so no fast logging needed)
Is there a way to get the DMM6500 to log also the secondary reading ?
When enabled, the csv file still only contains the primary value, is there a way to enable the secondary in the log ?
(I only sample with 3 samples pr second, so no fast logging needed)
Did you download "defbuffer2" ? The primary and secondary measurements are on different reading buffers.
KickStart Instrument Control Software - Quickly capture data from your DMM6500 and move faster to the next stage of development. (Request your FREE license when you purchase a DMM6500.)
I thought the DMM6500 KickStart license promo was still active, but when I sent emails requesting the license to textronix they pointed me at the 60 day KickStart trial and then stopped answering my emails.
That is true, [the license received by registering on tek.com] is a "locked" license so it is tied to the computer you first register the software to. That's a separate promotion running right now I think for all of our touch screen instruments. If you'd still like the floating license [from the DMM6500 promotion], you can reach out to the Tek office for your geographic location (www.tek.com/contact_us (http://www.tek.com/contact_us)).
Hey John,
It looks like the trials have been moved to our website here is the link https://www.tek.com/keithley-kickstart (https://www.tek.com/keithley-kickstart)
Once you go to the site it should guide you through on acquiring a 60 day trial!
Enjoy!
I found a problem on my DMM6500: The terminal switch (Front/Back) had a contact problem. With the inputs shorted ohms measurement was between -0.5 and 2-3 ohms, depending on how quickly I released the switch. Put some Contact Cleaner in the switch and now it always reads -0.5 ohms. This offset goes over the whole range, even at continuity measurement (as expected). I never used the switch before, and all readings were good until I used it the first time. Seems they calibrated it in the factory with the unwanted contact resistance. The unit is eight months old, so I suspect Keithley won't recalibrate it for free? Or is Keithley customer friendly?
Magnus
Adjusting the Ohms zero is often a separate adjustment point that the user is supposed to do from time to time if accuracy in 2 wire ohms matters. So one would likely not need a full recalibration, just that one zero point.
Still it is no such a good indication of quality if they do not catch a poor contact in the initial testing (maybe even the self test). Ideally the initial value at zero adjustment should have told them that the switch is bad and may need rework.
does someone have the calibration manual?
does someone have the calibration manual?
In the tektronix manual page, if you select the "service" as the "Manual Type" you can reach the calibration manual. This link should for a while too: https://download.tek.com/manual/DMM6500-905-01B_%20Nov_2018_cal.pdf
does someone have the calibration manual?
In the tektronix manual page, if you select the "service" as the "Manual Type" you can reach the calibration manual. This link should for a while too: https://download.tek.com/manual/DMM6500-905-01B_%20Nov_2018_cal.pdf
Thank you for the link. Made the zero Ohm calibration, and everything is fine now.
Does zero calibration shift the entire scale?i only checked with Ohms: It shifts the whole range like REL does.
Those. was 10V will become 10V - zero offset. So?
I'm considering buying the DMM6500.
What I like about the unit is the data acquisition possibilities. But after reading through this whole thread I also saw some issues that where pointed out.
The issue that a current trough the current measurement path interferes with the voltage measurement is a bit of a set back.
Also it seems that the technical person of Keithley doesn't interact on this thread anymore, that seems a bit of a bad sign as well.
Also In the datasheet I've read it has a fixed forced cooling, however in a video comparing the fan sounds to another device, I can hear it changing. Also in this thread 2 speeds are mentioned.
So what to expect regarding fan noise.
When I write scripts for my other devices, I mostly do that remotely anyways, but in other usages not having a lot of fan noise would be a plus.
I know every case has its best matching device, but as this being a hobby, in my situation it's sometimes otherwise. The case is then matching the device possibilities. Using and exploring gear is a large part of the hobby.
So for me the question would be: is the device fun to use (not to many crashes/bugs, fan noise) and is it accurate enough to make the efforts using it in experiments worthwhile, but also has it also matured enough in its current FW state?
(About the accuracy: I think it should more than enough.)
I can answer a couple of your questions. I got a DMM6500 some months ago and liked it so much that I bought one more a few weeks ago!That sure solves the second measurement issue :-+, good to hear you like it so much!
I got a DMM6500 some months ago and liked it so much that I bought one more a few weeks ago!I think you also bought yours from www.cnrood.com? (http://www.cnrood.com?) Did yours come with a calibration certificate?
I got a DMM6500 some months ago and liked it so much that I bought one more a few weeks ago!I think you also bought yours from www.cnrood.com? (http://www.cnrood.com?) Did yours come with a calibration certificate?
Mine came without one.
Also what would be the path to get the free licence for free kickstart?
https://www.tek.com/promotion/free-kickstart-software-purchase-dmm6500-or-dmm6510 (https://www.tek.com/promotion/free-kickstart-software-purchase-dmm6500-or-dmm6510)
As for the fan, I can live with the noise. It's less noisy than my scope.
Is there a way to check how much (turn on) power cycles the unit has? I want to reassure its new and not one that has been send back for whatever reason. (It did come with 2 identical power cords for instance and no certificate, which makes me wonder whether its straight from the factory. The state I got mine in is not consistent with the 2 unboxing video's on YouTube.)
Is there a way to check how much (turn on) power cycles the unit has?You can check the number of autocal cycles. (System Calibration menu )
This revision is intended for use with firmware version 1.7.0 and later.They updated the demo clock application to 2.0
Has this text always been present there for the DMM6500 Manual:
https://www.tek.com/product-support?series=DMM6500%206%C2%BD-Digit%20Graphical%20Touchscreen%20Digital%20Multimeter (https://www.tek.com/product-support?series=DMM6500%206%C2%BD-Digit%20Graphical%20Touchscreen%20Digital%20Multimeter)QuoteThis revision is intended for use with firmware version 1.7.0 and later.They updated the demo clock application to 2.0
Are we getting a firmware update as Christmas present??
So, it would appear that from this document at least, the "v1.7.0" firmware is not related to the DMM6500.Yes. Firmware "v1.7.0" has just appeared for 7510. And in this firmware for the first time added the ability to run applications. To interest users, the application of the clock has been fixed. Those. A new watch is needed for the 7510.
for key,value in pairs(getmetatable(localnode.fan).Setters) do print(key, value) end
level function: 2238968
print(fan.level)fan.LEVEL_QUIETfan.level = fan.OFFfan.level = fan.LEVEL_QUIET
fan.level = fan.LEVEL_NORMAL
I checked those release notes:So, it would appear that from this document at least, the "v1.7.0" firmware is not related to the DMM6500.Yes. Firmware "v1.7.0" has just appeared for 7510. And in this firmware for the first time added the ability to run applications. To interest users, the application of the clock has been fixed. Those. A new watch is needed for the 7510.
Has anyone encountered the relay constantly clicking problem on 6500 when measuring current of a light load (~4mA, switching reagulator) ?
Setting to 1A manually works, but setting it to 10mA or 100mA results in "Overflow".
The load may have spikes, but definitely nothing in the 100+mA range.
Measuring voltage with shunt (0,1Ohm) works fine (100mV Range).
Any ideas ? Anyone encountered that ?
Thanks,
Thomas
Could you please remind me, does the fan is always on, or only when the unit is booted up?The fan is only on when the device is on. However a transformer hum can be heard even when the device is not on. Which can be heard in a silent room from I think 1.0 m. The fan can then be heard from 10 m.
Hi All, long time lurker..Hi,
I can confirm, there is no officially sanctioned way to turn the fan off.
The specs (under all operating conditions) require the little bit of air movement inside the instrument.
My device is BTW about to be replaced by CN Rood. I hope the calibration date of the new device will be more recent. Are you tempted :P?
I work on the product analog design for Keithley.
For the fan air - you could try blocking the vents with a breathable fabric. If placed loosely nearby it should still allow some air exchange while reducing the audible noise. If it is completely blocked off, the internal temp will rise and after some time, you may see measurements have drifted. A good test is turn autozero OFF then block up your airflow.. after 30 minutes see how much drift has occurred (in addition to the normal spec) - it might be perfectly acceptable to your application. This kind of operation wasn't characterized very much.
For your transformer hum - Early units are known to exhibit this. I think if you find it too loud, you can return it for exchange if its still in warranty. Brad O can better help with that. Otherwise, this problem can be fixed but it requires something most users would rather not deal with.
Everything I do on this forum is my free time but I can help answer questions since Brad seems quite busy these days - glad to help out.
MULTI-MEASURE bug - If I understood correctly what the video was showing (when going to 100V or 1kV range), then yes its a known hardware issue that will be resolved on the next revision.
Hi All, long time lurker..
I can confirm, there is no officially sanctioned way to turn the fan off.
The specs (under all operating conditions) require the little bit of air movement inside the instrument.
MULTI-MEASURE bug - If I understood correctly what the video was showing (when going to 100V or 1kV range), then yes its a known hardware issue that will be resolved on the next revision.
Ouch, I wonder if this will be covered under warranty or is at least a mod we can perform ourselves.. thanks for providing information btw.
I am unsure about covered under warranty (you will have to contact applications ENG for that) -- I don't recall all the details ATM, I thought it might only be reproduced with open voltage input connections or something along those lines (not a common or normal use case if I am remembering right)
If you could post your setup details and how the issue is causing problems for you, we can assist in finding a workaround that could be satisfactory for you. In any case, I think the issue is logged in our system.
JxR - sorry to hear you didnt get contacted again to get a satisfactory result to your issue. I'll "remind" some guys about this to close the loop with you. I dont follow the Tek forums (where you posted) as they seem to not be as active as this place. However, the Tek forums are the "official" place to document the reports / ask questions so you did the right thing.
MULTI-MEASURE bug - If I understood correctly what the video was showing (when going to 100V or 1kV range), then yes its a known hardware issue that will be resolved on the next revision.
Some commentsPersonally I'm not so worried about this 36mV jump (on 100V range) to 2.4V, 2.4V is not present on the terminal (it's still 36mV) (the voltage terminals were not floating, 50ohm)
MULTI-MEASURE bug - If I understood correctly what the video was showing (when going to 100V or 1kV range), then yes its a known hardware issue that will be resolved on the next revision.
Maybe you can shine some light on the limitations of MULTI-MEASURE of voltage and current (excluding the 100V range bug)
In this thread we checked other DMMs (not Keithley) and also much more expensive DMMs and they all have this xx mV reading when running 1A through the device.
So that seems to be a common thing to happen, that is how it should work.
But how does Keithley or any other manufacture then say voltage can be measured while current is running through the device? Seems to me the best you can say is it can be done but then the voltage is completely out of spec.
Anyway it's better to have it and understand what the limitations are than having it disabled.
From what I experience it's rarely a good idea to do both on one device hence why I don't really worry about the 100V range bug.
Not to interrupt this thread, but I think it's only fair to mention that the new DMM I received today from CN Rood was calibrated a lot more recent (September 2019). The fan and hum are about the same loudness.
Thanks for the clarification, like I said I am fairly sure this issue is logged. The next hardware revision will seek to improve it because we address all known defects. I can say however, that I dont know of any mechanism in place to notify you when this actually occurs. In the meantime, perhaps somebody (Brad) could work on a way for the issue to be worked around for your particular measurement situation (if there is such a way). I'm assuming you posted sufficient details on the Tek forum.
Somewhere in the future I would like to measure temperatures with the DMM6500. I understand it doesn't measure the cold junction temperature. So the exact temp difference is somewhat hard to tell. This can be overcome to use a known cold junction/junction temperature outside the device.
Maybe you can shine some light on the limitations of MULTI-MEASURE of voltage and current (excluding the 100V range bug)
In this thread we checked other DMMs (not Keithley) and also much more expensive DMMs and they all have this xx mV reading when running 1A through the device.
So that seems to be a common thing to happen, that is how it should work.
But how does Keithley or any other manufacture then say voltage can be measured while current is running through the device? Seems to me the best you can say is it can be done but then the voltage is completely out of spec.
Anyway it's better to have it and understand what the limitations are than having it disabled.
From what I experience it's rarely a good idea to do both on one device hence why I don't really worry about the 100V range bug.
I just want to clarify since we didn't really compile a list of DMMs that perform dual V/I measurements and test them. The DMM7510 doesn't suffer from this same hardware problem, it does dual measurements fine and provides the expected results on the voltage reading. While both the DMM6500 and DAQ6510 cannot perform a reliable dual measurements on either the 100/1000V ranges.
I haven't investigated other options yet. But the solution should have a good price/fun ratio :-+Somewhere in the future I would like to measure temperatures with the DMM6500. I understand it doesn't measure the cold junction temperature. So the exact temp difference is somewhat hard to tell. This can be overcome to use a known cold junction/junction temperature outside the device.
You cold also use another sensor type.
Maybe you can shine some light on the limitations of MULTI-MEASURE of voltage and current (excluding the 100V range bug)
In this thread we checked other DMMs (not Keithley) and also much more expensive DMMs and they all have this xx mV reading when running 1A through the device.
So that seems to be a common thing to happen, that is how it should work.
But how does Keithley or any other manufacture then say voltage can be measured while current is running through the device? Seems to me the best you can say is it can be done but then the voltage is completely out of spec.
Anyway it's better to have it and understand what the limitations are than having it disabled.
From what I experience it's rarely a good idea to do both on one device hence why I don't really worry about the 100V range bug.
I just want to clarify since we didn't really compile a list of DMMs that perform dual V/I measurements and test them. The DMM7510 doesn't suffer from this same hardware problem, it does dual measurements fine and provides the expected results on the voltage reading. While both the DMM6500 and DAQ6510 cannot perform a reliable dual measurements on either the 100/1000V ranges.
I'm not talking about the 100/1000V bug I'm talking about this:
50 ohm between voltage terminals, I could add a voltage and then say it's wrong but I don't see the point, it's not 0.0mV now without one.
DMM6500. Datasheet :
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2585589.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2585589.pdf)
Good to see ethernet standard, even if they got it backwards :D
I haven't investigated other options yet. But the solution should have a good price/fun ratio :-+Somewhere in the future I would like to measure temperatures with the DMM6500. I understand it doesn't measure the cold junction temperature. So the exact temp difference is somewhat hard to tell. This can be overcome to use a known cold junction/junction temperature outside the device.
You cold also use another sensor type.
One of the advantage of a K-type sensor is that they're cheap (don't know about price vs quality) and their low thermal mass and large measurement range. But if someone knows of another affordable solution, then I'm certainly interested.
Will the need arise to do temperature measurements it's nice to have multiple options at hand.
I haven't investigated other options yet. But the solution should have a good price/fun ratio :-+Somewhere in the future I would like to measure temperatures with the DMM6500. I understand it doesn't measure the cold junction temperature. So the exact temp difference is somewhat hard to tell. This can be overcome to use a known cold junction/junction temperature outside the device.
You cold also use another sensor type.
One of the advantage of a K-type sensor is that they're cheap (don't know about price vs quality) and their low thermal mass and large measurement range. But if someone knows of another affordable solution, then I'm certainly interested.
Will the need arise to do temperature measurements it's nice to have multiple options at hand.
I've been happy enough with this PT100 probe with the DMM6500. I personally just clipped the wires and soldered on some banana plugs. It is accurate enough that I don't feel like I need to perform a cold junction compensation for it with an ice water bath. Unlike all the K-type probes I've used (they all required compensation).
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075QC399C/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075QC399C/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
You can also find the same probe on aliexpress if you search around.
RTD sensors (PT100, PT1000) don't need cold junction compensations. That is needed for thermocouples. RTDs are absolute value sensors. Same with thermistors, but they have quite different resistance/temperature curve..
With just standard 4 mm connectors it is hard to use thermo-couples.Some thoughts on the temperature measurement subject.
Looks like us Canadians will have to wait, till after the US long weekend.
Agree, it might be the 399 --- though I dont think I've seen it jump for that long of a time period before. When I get my loaner back, I can try this as well see what it looks like. I assume this data was taken in a very temperature stable environment with care taken with the cables and connections as well.
I had the DMM6500 hooked up to a very stable LTZ1000A output.
The problem that was noticed before, with a sudden jump in the graph is still happening.
So, most likely this is a hardware problem and can not be solved in the firmware?
I had the DMM6500 hooked up to a very stable LTZ1000A output.
The problem that was noticed before, with a sudden jump in the graph is still happening.
So, most likely this is a hardware problem and can not be solved in the firmware?
Have you try to connect another DMM (34470A / 34465A) to the LTZ1000A at the same time?
It is easy to see that the sudden jump is only happen in the DMM6500.
Yes it is working again, (on the older firmware)
So is it alive again? I always thought an FPGA programming failure bricked the unit. I'll ask about it.
how many FPGA's are there?Judging by the photos, the device has 2 FPGA:
The jumps look a little like the "normal" level of popcorn noise from a LM399 reference.
So chances are high this is a limitation of the hardware. Besides the reference also resistors could produce a similar noise. The DMM6500 is sold as a 6 digit meter after all and not for 7 digit performance.
:TRIGger:STATe?
Waiting: The trigger model has been in the same wait block for more than 100 ms
Maybe someone can help me with the following. I've created the following trigger model:
(Attachment Link)
A simple (test) loop that waits for the SCPI "*TRG" command to cascade the trigger and do a single measurement.
The idea is to measure with an oscilloscope and the dmm at the same time. Having the DMM executing the loop, but the SCPI client doing the data handling of both devices (dmm: FETCH).
This would be easy if there was a way to let the SCPI client wait for the completion of the measurement.
So is there a solid way to wait for the "new" measurement or poll the status of it?
One way would be to have another wait block after the measurement and check whether the loop is in a waiting state, but that might introduce a delay of 100 ms before that state is set.Code: [Select]:TRIGger:STATe?
Waiting: The trigger model has been in the same wait block for more than 100 ms
That is exactly what I was looking for! It can even do SRQ callback to my SCPI client, so polling would not be needed (which would have cause a lot of network traffic).Maybe someone can help me with the following. I've created the following trigger model:Your probably looking for something like polling the event registers and generating a SRQ. Check out Appendix B in the reference manual.
(Attachment Link)
A simple (test) loop that waits for the SCPI "*TRG" command to cascade the trigger and do a single measurement.
The idea is to measure with an oscilloscope and the dmm at the same time. Having the DMM executing the loop, but the SCPI client doing the data handling of both devices (dmm: FETCH).
This would be easy if there was a way to let the SCPI client wait for the completion of the measurement.
So is there a solid way to wait for the "new" measurement or poll the status of it?
One way would be to have another wait block after the measurement and check whether the loop is in a waiting state, but that might introduce a delay of 100 ms before that state is set.Code: [Select]:TRIGger:STATe?
Waiting: The trigger model has been in the same wait block for more than 100 ms
It can even do SRQ callback to my SCPI client, so polling would not be needed (which would have cause a lot of network traffic)...lDo you happen to have a LABview example of that?
INITIATE
// map bit 0 to information message 4
:STATUS:OPERATION:MAP 0, 2737
// Let bit 0 cascade to the "*STB?" register (OSB bit)
:STATUS:OPERATION:ENABLE 1
// Let the OSB bit send service request events
*SRE 128
// Clear event logs
SYSTEM:CLEAR
STATUS:CLEAR
There's one thing that needs some consideration when using these registers. When the STB is read via the VISA api, that is an destructive read (love the term). Which means is is read and set to 0 in one atomic operation. That's solid!
Reading the other registers don't work this way. Which mean that getting the register content and resetting it, cannot be done atomically. The danger of this is that after reading the content, a new state can be set at the device, just before clearing it. That way that status change will be unnoticeable.
The remedy against this is not clearing the register until one knows for certain that the dmm execution is in a safe state to do so. A destructive read would have been preferable, because until that safe state event bits cannot be "reused".
Another technique might be to make the reading of the register and clearing it uninterruptible.
This could be done between:
TRIG:PAUSe
TRIG:RESume
But one does not want to do this while polling. :-+
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There's one thing that needs some consideration when using these registers. When the STB is read via the VISA api, that is an destructive read (love the term). Which means is is read and set to 0 in one atomic operation. That's solid!I found a general section of the reference manual that mentions that the register is indeed being reset after it's read. I'm glad that it does. Would have saved some time when it was mentioned in the query command as well though.
Reading the other registers don't work this way. Which mean that getting the register content and resetting it, cannot be done atomically. The danger of this is that after reading the content, a new state can be set at the device, just before clearing it. That way that status change will be unnoticeable.
The remedy against this is not clearing the register until one knows for certain that the dmm execution is in a safe state to do so. A destructive read would have been preferable, because until that safe state event bits cannot be "reused".
Another technique might be to make the reading of the register and clearing it uninterruptible.
This could be done between:
TRIG:PAUSe
TRIG:RESume
But one does not want to do this while polling. :-+
Does the C revision have the hardware issues discussed in this thread fixed?
I think the Keithley rep implied that it required a hardware revision to fix.I was under the impression that this is a new hardware revision.
I think the Keithley rep implied that it required a hardware revision to fix.I was under the impression that this is a new hardware revision.
No, it's just a revision of the calibration manual.My mistake. :palm:
While you're on it, can you also please make sure that the graph Y axis numbers show the informative, distinct digits rather than the common thus non-informative ones? Check the attached images: here the Y range is less than 100uV though in the current implementation Y axis numbers show the 10mv, 1mv and 100uV digits, totally missing the important part. Something like the second image is what I'd expect to see.
Hmm. Actually their implementation is slightly different from mine, if min and max values differ in the first few digits, it switches back to a mode similar to the old behavior, thus making the y-axis labels useless again. I guess that they wanted to avoid the confusion of having ...999 below the 10.000... header, as it might be perceived as 10.000999 instead of 9.999999 but in my opinion it's not a big deal and having useful labels is much more important.
(Below images have the same scaling, just different y offset values.)
I used a script that interacts with a triggermodel on the dmm, just like before, but now doing simultaneously the "exact" same reading with a scope.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/battery-charging-using-a-siglent-sds1104x-and-spd3303x/msg2842750/#msg2842750 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/battery-charging-using-a-siglent-sds1104x-and-spd3303x/msg2842750/#msg2842750)
One thing that would be nice if there was a way keep the auto zero off, and do a "zeroing" somewhere in the trigger model, so it doesn't delay the actual measurement. Using the scpi command which does that is not allowed with a running trigger model. Imo it should have an action block for it.
While a trigger model is running that command is not allowed. Like (i assume) most SCPI commands.I used a script that interacts with a triggermodel on the dmm, just like before, but now doing simultaneously the "exact" same reading with a scope.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/battery-charging-using-a-siglent-sds1104x-and-spd3303x/msg2842750/#msg2842750 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/battery-charging-using-a-siglent-sds1104x-and-spd3303x/msg2842750/#msg2842750)
One thing that would be nice if there was a way keep the auto zero off, and do a "zeroing" somewhere in the trigger model, so it doesn't delay the actual measurement. Using the scpi command which does that is not allowed with a running trigger model. Imo it should have an action block for it.
Section 13
pgs 98-99
[:SENSe[1]]:<function>:AZERo[:STATe]
VOLT:AZER OFF (Turn auto zero off)
VOLT:AZER ONCE (Perform a single reference measurement)
I was planning to build a DIY Solid state, 10-chan SCAN card (so that I can collect data during the night at home without the dripping tap simulation), but since DMM6500 seems to drive the 20-chan card I changed my design to double the channels (the more the merrier).
I'll let you know if I hit a problem with the DMM6500 behavior,
It's alive!!!!
I still need to buy more solid-state relays to populate the rest of the board but what's there seems to work flawlessly (so far), silent and fast. Since I was trying to keep the cost as low as possible (you can tell from the all DIY PCB board), the relays are not the best, the on state resistance of each channel is around 2 Ohm. But it's not a big deal as I have plenty of channels to use kelvin connections if needed. A $12 Atmega32u4 based board is handling all the logic.
(top board: Keithley 2000-Scan with wires attached for protocol sniffing)
(bottom board: DIY 20-chan solid state scan card)
The fuse may not allays be fast enough to brake the current path, before doing damage. Beside the high current spike the spark in the fuse could cause trouble from RF interference. Ideally there should be no permanent damage except for the fuse, but it is definitely stressing things.
I first check would be so see if there is still connection in the 3 A range (e.g. a blown shunt or trace).
It could also be worth checking the very low current ranges (e.g. 100 µA).
The next step would than likely be a visual inspection to see if there is visible damage (e.g. blown trace). One could also measure (with a second meter) if there is actually a voltage aver the chain of shunt resistors.
If nothing visible it would likely be time do to some reverse engineering to see which chips are used for the current ranges. As the 10 A range and likely voltage are still working OK, the damage should be quite close to the input side of the current ranges: something like the OP for bootstrapping the protection, MOSFETs used for switching between shunts or the first CMOS switch or amplifier to see the shunt voltage.
I'm not qualified enough to diagnose the issue and conduct the necessary repairs so does it have to go back to Keithley for that? Bought online from RS components by the way.
I'm not qualified enough to diagnose the issue and conduct the necessary repairs so does it have to go back to Keithley for that? Bought online from RS components by the way.
Keithley would probably make a swap of the main board and not a component level repair.
Would be interesting to know, how much they charge for that.
The repair should be possible and not too difficult.
If you open it up, can you take a few pictures of the input circuitry of the shunts and surrounding area?
One feature I would really appreciate is the following:
Measurements can be done using SCPI. It even allows reading values as a double float. But it would be nice if the uncertainty or accuracy of that value could be read along with it. ("Significant digit" info is a lost when using floats)
I know it depends on: calibration age, range, environment temp, nplc, value, etc. But it should be possible to have the DMM supply a best case plus/minus value. That value could then be used to display the value with appropriate significant digits. Or use it for uncertainty propagation when calculating stuff.
I could calculate it myself -using specifications-, but for instance the range that was used (when using auto ranging) can not be determined without making assumptions. And making assumptions and automation are not really best friends.
It also would be nice if the uncertainty could shown in the GUI. Now the significant digits are reduced, depending on the settings, but that is coarse: either it might show a digit that is not really certain or a digit might be "hidden" which still has meaning.
-99,99 mV ± 50 μV -100,5349 mV
-95,00 mV ± 50 μV -95,53678 mV
-90,00 mV ± 50 μV -90,54946 mV
-84,99 mV ± 50 μV -85,52059 mV
-80,00 mV ± 50 μV -80,53651 mV
-75,01 mV ± 50 μV -75,52939 mV
-70,01 mV ± 50 μV -70,50574 mV
-65,01 mV ± 50 μV -65,54060 mV
-60,00 mV ± 50 μV -60,49446 mV
-55,01 mV ± 50 μV -55,50427 mV
-50,01 mV ± 50 μV -50,48485 mV
-45,00 mV ± 50 μV -45,49579 mV
-40,01 mV ± 50 μV -40,49002 mV
-35,00 mV ± 50 μV -35,47937 mV
-30,00 mV ± 50 μV -30,48827 mV
-25,01 mV ± 50 μV -25,48568 mV
-20,01 mV ± 50 μV -20,49384 mV
-15,01 mV ± 50 μV -15,48463 mV
-9,99 mV ± 50 μV -10,46401 mV
-4,99 mV ± 50 μV -5,454895 mV
10 μV ± 50 μV -371,5116 μV
4,99 mV ± 50 μV 4,574460 mV
10,00 mV ± 50 μV 9,595678 mV
15,00 mV ± 50 μV 14,59546 mV
20,00 mV ± 50 μV 19,54206 mV
24,99 mV ± 50 μV 24,60280 mV
30,01 mV ± 50 μV 29,59512 mV
34,99 mV ± 50 μV 34,55598 mV
40,00 mV ± 50 μV 39,55425 mV
45,00 mV ± 50 μV 44,53928 mV
49,99 mV ± 50 μV 49,54786 mV
55,01 mV ± 50 μV 54,55485 mV
59,99 mV ± 50 μV 59,58802 mV
64,99 mV ± 50 μV 64,58159 mV
70,00 mV ± 50 μV 69,57994 mV
75,00 mV ± 50 μV 74,55330 mV
80,01 mV ± 50 μV 79,55213 mV
85,00 mV ± 50 μV 84,52459 mV
90,00 mV ± 50 μV 89,52627 mV
94,99 mV ± 50 μV 94,52729 mV
100,01 mV ± 50 μV 99,51768 mV
104,99 mV ± 50 μV 104,5233 mV
109,99 mV ± 50 μV 109,5235 mV
115,00 mV ± 50 μV 114,5176 mV
120,00 mV ± 50 μV 119,5990 mV
125,00 mV ± 50 μV 124,6036 mV
129,99 mV ± 50 μV 129,6045 mV
135,00 mV ± 50 μV 134,6102 mV
140,01 mV ± 50 μV 139,6132 mV
145,00 mV ± 50 μV 144,6507 mV
149,99 mV ± 50 μV 149,6477 mV
155,00 mV ± 50 μV 154,6367 mV
159,99 mV ± 50 μV 159,6287 mV
165,01 mV ± 50 μV 164,6443 mV
170,00 mV ± 60 μV 169,6320 mV
174,99 mV ± 60 μV 174,6115 mV
179,99 mV ± 60 μV 179,6204 mV
184,99 mV ± 60 μV 184,6194 mV
189,99 mV ± 60 μV 189,6480 mV
194,99 mV ± 60 μV 194,6334 mV
199,99 mV ± 60 μV 199,6508 mV
205,00 mV ± 60 μV 204,6405 mV
209,99 mV ± 60 μV 209,6471 mV
215,01 mV ± 60 μV 214,6855 mV
219,99 mV ± 60 μV 219,6651 mV
224,99 mV ± 60 μV 224,6446 mV
229,99 mV ± 60 μV 229,6605 mV
235,01 mV ± 60 μV 234,7256 mV
240,00 mV ± 60 μV 239,6987 mV
245,00 mV ± 60 μV 244,7299 mV
250,00 mV ± 60 μV 249,7007 mV
254,99 mV ± 60 μV 254,6993 mV
260,01 mV ± 60 μV 259,7119 mV
265,01 mV ± 60 μV 264,6929 mV
270,01 mV ± 60 μV 269,6844 mV
275,00 mV ± 60 μV 274,7003 mV
280,00 mV ± 60 μV 279,7140 mV
285,00 mV ± 60 μV 284,6962 mV
289,99 mV ± 60 μV 289,6868 mV
295,01 mV ± 60 μV 294,6965 mV
299,99 mV ± 60 μV 299,6881 mV
305,01 mV ± 60 μV 304,6993 mV
309,99 mV ± 60 μV 309,6885 mV
315,00 mV ± 60 μV 314,6754 mV
320,00 mV ± 60 μV 319,6926 mV
324,99 mV ± 60 μV 324,6841 mV
329,99 mV ± 60 μV 329,6775 mV
335,00 mV ± 60 μV 334,7041 mV
339,99 mV ± 60 μV 339,6665 mV
345,00 mV ± 60 μV 344,6773 mV
350,01 mV ± 60 μV 349,7198 mV
355,01 mV ± 60 μV 354,7714 mV
360,01 mV ± 60 μV 359,7726 mV
364,99 mV ± 60 μV 364,7993 mV
369,99 mV ± 60 μV 369,7805 mV
374,99 mV ± 60 μV 374,7776 mV
380,01 mV ± 60 μV 379,7790 mV
385,00 mV ± 60 μV 384,7912 mV
390,00 mV ± 60 μV 389,7871 mV
395,00 mV ± 60 μV 394,7946 mV
400,01 mV ± 60 μV 399,8107 mV
405,00 mV ± 60 μV 404,8234 mV
410,00 mV ± 60 μV 409,8225 mV
415,00 mV ± 60 μV 414,8555 mV
420,01 mV ± 60 μV 419,8323 mV
425,01 mV ± 60 μV 424,8297 mV
430,00 mV ± 60 μV 429,8127 mV
434,99 mV ± 60 μV 434,8216 mV
440,00 mV ± 60 μV 439,8321 mV
445,00 mV ± 60 μV 444,8185 mV
450,00 mV ± 60 μV 449,7805 mV
455,01 mV ± 60 μV 454,7854 mV
459,99 mV ± 60 μV 459,7913 mV
465,01 mV ± 60 μV 464,8078 mV
470,01 mV ± 60 μV 469,8463 mV
475,00 mV ± 60 μV 474,8327 mV
480,00 mV ± 60 μV 479,8199 mV
485,00 mV ± 60 μV 484,8307 mV
490,00 mV ± 60 μV 489,8171 mV
495,00 mV ± 60 μV 494,8271 mV
500,00 mV ± 60 μV 499,8344 mV
505,00 mV ± 70 μV 504,8193 mV
510,00 mV ± 70 μV 509,8614 mV
515,01 mV ± 70 μV 514,8297 mV
520,01 mV ± 70 μV 519,8481 mV
525,00 mV ± 70 μV 524,8184 mV
529,99 mV ± 70 μV 529,8358 mV
534,99 mV ± 70 μV 534,8227 mV
540,00 mV ± 70 μV 539,8380 mV
545,00 mV ± 70 μV 544,8297 mV
550,00 mV ± 70 μV 549,8280 mV
555,00 mV ± 70 μV 554,7797 mV
560,01 mV ± 70 μV 559,8151 mV
564,99 mV ± 70 μV 564,7944 mV
570,00 mV ± 70 μV 569,8030 mV
574,99 mV ± 70 μV 574,8193 mV
580,00 mV ± 70 μV 579,8347 mV
584,99 mV ± 70 μV 584,8952 mV
590,00 mV ± 70 μV 589,8831 mV
595,00 mV ± 70 μV 594,8761 mV
599,99 mV ± 70 μV 599,8789 mV
605,00 mV ± 70 μV 604,8748 mV
610,00 mV ± 70 μV 609,8812 mV
615,00 mV ± 70 μV 614,8796 mV
620,00 mV ± 70 μV 619,8576 mV
625,01 mV ± 70 μV 624,8890 mV
630,01 mV ± 70 μV 629,9123 mV
635,01 mV ± 70 μV 634,8910 mV
639,99 mV ± 70 μV 639,8793 mV
645,00 mV ± 70 μV 644,8758 mV
649,99 mV ± 70 μV 649,8946 mV
655,01 mV ± 70 μV 654,8675 mV
659,99 mV ± 70 μV 659,8758 mV
665,00 mV ± 70 μV 664,8355 mV
670,00 mV ± 70 μV 669,8303 mV
675,00 mV ± 70 μV 674,8412 mV
680,01 mV ± 70 μV 679,8284 mV
684,99 mV ± 70 μV 684,7921 mV
690,01 mV ± 70 μV 689,8023 mV
695,01 mV ± 70 μV 694,8211 mV
700,01 mV ± 70 μV 699,8159 mV
705,01 mV ± 70 μV 704,8991 mV
710,00 mV ± 70 μV 709,8561 mV
715,01 mV ± 70 μV 714,8611 mV
720,00 mV ± 70 μV 719,8602 mV
725,00 mV ± 70 μV 724,8801 mV
730,01 mV ± 70 μV 729,8767 mV
735,01 mV ± 70 μV 734,8649 mV
739,99 mV ± 70 μV 739,8490 mV
745,00 mV ± 70 μV 744,8708 mV
749,99 mV ± 70 μV 749,8844 mV
755,00 mV ± 70 μV 754,8795 mV
760,00 mV ± 70 μV 759,8908 mV
765,01 mV ± 70 μV 764,8508 mV
770,00 mV ± 70 μV 769,8599 mV
775,00 mV ± 70 μV 774,8739 mV
780,00 mV ± 70 μV 779,9373 mV
785,01 mV ± 70 μV 784,8872 mV
790,01 mV ± 70 μV 789,8821 mV
794,99 mV ± 70 μV 794,8619 mV
800,00 mV ± 70 μV 799,8638 mV
805,00 mV ± 70 μV 804,8734 mV
810,01 mV ± 70 μV 809,8798 mV
815,01 mV ± 70 μV 814,8688 mV
819,99 mV ± 70 μV 819,9254 mV
824,99 mV ± 70 μV 824,8850 mV
830,01 mV ± 70 μV 829,9399 mV
834,99 mV ± 80 μV 834,9402 mV
840,00 mV ± 80 μV 839,9390 mV
845,01 mV ± 80 μV 844,9882 mV
849,99 mV ± 80 μV 849,9630 mV
855,00 mV ± 80 μV 854,9764 mV
860,01 mV ± 80 μV 859,9938 mV
865,00 mV ± 80 μV 864,9919 mV
869,99 mV ± 80 μV 869,9828 mV
875,00 mV ± 80 μV 874,9798 mV
880,00 mV ± 80 μV 880,0091 mV
885,01 mV ± 80 μV 885,0155 mV
890,00 mV ± 80 μV 890,0274 mV
895,01 mV ± 80 μV 895,0633 mV
900,00 mV ± 80 μV 900,0357 mV
905,00 mV ± 80 μV 905,0420 mV
909,99 mV ± 80 μV 910,0475 mV
915,00 mV ± 80 μV 915,0193 mV
920,01 mV ± 80 μV 920,0200 mV
925,00 mV ± 80 μV 925,0597 mV
929,99 mV ± 80 μV 930,0651 mV
935,00 mV ± 80 μV 935,0435 mV
939,99 mV ± 80 μV 940,0951 mV
944,99 mV ± 80 μV 945,1004 mV
949,99 mV ± 80 μV 950,0850 mV
955,00 mV ± 80 μV 955,1330 mV
960,01 mV ± 80 μV 960,0984 mV
964,99 mV ± 80 μV 965,0851 mV
969,99 mV ± 80 μV 970,0792 mV
975,00 mV ± 80 μV 975,0742 mV
980,01 mV ± 80 μV 980,0845 mV
984,99 mV ± 80 μV 985,0734 mV
990,01 mV ± 80 μV 990,0646 mV
995,01 mV ± 80 μV 995,0435 mV
1,00001 V ± 80 μV 1,000054 V
1,00500 V ± 80 μV 1,005048 V
1,01000 V ± 80 μV 1,010047 V
1,01500 V ± 80 μV 1,015038 V
1,02000 V ± 80 μV 1,020039 V
1,02500 V ± 80 μV 1,025050 V
1,03000 V ± 80 μV 1,030010 V
1,03500 V ± 80 μV 1,035022 V
1,04000 V ± 80 μV 1,040041 V
1,04501 V ± 80 μV 1,045050 V
1,05000 V ± 80 μV 1,050045 V
1,05499 V ± 80 μV 1,055102 V
1,05999 V ± 80 μV 1,060090 V
1,06500 V ± 80 μV 1,065107 V
1,07001 V ± 80 μV 1,070128 V
1,07499 V ± 80 μV 1,075121 V
1,08000 V ± 80 μV 1,080145 V
1,08500 V ± 80 μV 1,085124 V
1,08999 V ± 80 μV 1,090122 V
1,09501 V ± 80 μV 1,095173 V
1,09999 V ± 80 μV 1,100171 V
1,10499 V ± 80 μV 1,105185 V
1,11000 V ± 80 μV 1,110202 V
1,11501 V ± 80 μV 1,115209 V
1,12001 V ± 80 μV 1,120183 V
1,12500 V ± 80 μV 1,125199 V
1,12999 V ± 80 μV 1,130201 V
1,13500 V ± 80 μV 1,135184 V
1,14000 V ± 80 μV 1,140197 V
1,14500 V ± 80 μV 1,145192 V
1,15000 V ± 80 μV 1,150212 V
1,15501 V ± 80 μV 1,155170 V
1,16001 V ± 80 μV 1,160203 V
1,16500 V ± 80 μV 1,165193 V
1,17000 V ± 90 μV 1,170194 V
1,17499 V ± 90 μV 1,175242 V
1,18000 V ± 90 μV 1,180212 V
1,18500 V ± 90 μV 1,185212 V
1,19001 V ± 90 μV 1,190221 V
1,19500 V ± 90 μV 1,195222 V
1,20000 V ± 90 μV 1,200239 V
1,20500 V ± 90 μV 1,205198 V
1,21001 V ± 90 μV 1,210208 V
1,21501 V ± 90 μV 1,215216 V
1,22000 V ± 90 μV 1,220210 V
1,22499 V ± 90 μV 1,225199 V
1,22999 V ± 90 μV 1,230161 V
1,23499 V ± 90 μV 1,235163 V
1,24001 V ± 90 μV 1,240162 V
1,24500 V ± 90 μV 1,245175 V
1,25000 V ± 90 μV 1,250166 V
1,25500 V ± 90 μV 1,255178 V
1,25999 V ± 90 μV 1,260133 V
1,26501 V ± 90 μV 1,265150 V
1,26999 V ± 90 μV 1,270129 V
1,27500 V ± 90 μV 1,275117 V
1,28000 V ± 90 μV 1,280131 V
1,28500 V ± 90 μV 1,285112 V
1,29001 V ± 90 μV 1,290195 V
1,29501 V ± 90 μV 1,295198 V
1,30000 V ± 90 μV 1,300224 V
1,30500 V ± 90 μV 1,305238 V
1,31000 V ± 90 μV 1,310261 V
1,31500 V ± 90 μV 1,315252 V
1,31999 V ± 90 μV 1,320255 V
1,32500 V ± 90 μV 1,325291 V
1,33000 V ± 90 μV 1,330281 V
1,33500 V ± 90 μV 1,335280 V
1,34001 V ± 90 μV 1,340328 V
1,34501 V ± 90 μV 1,345332 V
1,35001 V ± 90 μV 1,350317 V
1,35499 V ± 90 μV 1,355310 V
1,35999 V ± 90 μV 1,360346 V
1,36501 V ± 90 μV 1,365338 V
1,36999 V ± 90 μV 1,370351 V
1,37499 V ± 90 μV 1,375338 V
1,38000 V ± 90 μV 1,380334 V
1,38500 V ± 90 μV 1,385369 V
1,38999 V ± 90 μV 1,390349 V
1,39500 V ± 90 μV 1,395348 V
1,39999 V ± 90 μV 1,400334 V
1,40500 V ± 90 μV 1,405348 V
1,41001 V ± 90 μV 1,410435 V
1,41500 V ± 90 μV 1,415393 V
1,41999 V ± 90 μV 1,420382 V
1,42500 V ± 90 μV 1,425395 V
1,42999 V ± 90 μV 1,430397 V
1,43499 V ± 90 μV 1,435426 V
1,43999 V ± 90 μV 1,440440 V
1,44500 V ± 90 μV 1,445446 V
1,45000 V ± 90 μV 1,450415 V
1,45500 V ± 90 μV 1,455428 V
1,46001 V ± 90 μV 1,460467 V
1,46500 V ± 90 μV 1,465453 V
1,46999 V ± 90 μV 1,470502 V
1,47501 V ± 90 μV 1,475483 V
1,48000 V ± 90 μV 1,480482 V
1,48500 V ± 90 μV 1,485508 V
1,48999 V ± 90 μV 1,490494 V
1,49499 V ± 90 μV 1,495504 V
1,50001 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,500554 V
1,50501 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,505440 V
1,51000 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,510430 V
1,51500 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,515436 V
1,52001 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,520466 V
1,52499 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,525520 V
1,53001 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,530524 V
1,53499 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,535520 V
1,54000 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,540514 V
1,54500 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,545532 V
1,55000 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,550552 V
1,55500 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,555600 V
1,55999 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,560545 V
1,56500 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,565558 V
1,57000 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,570560 V
1,57499 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,575567 V
1,58000 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,580626 V
1,58500 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,585607 V
1,59000 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,590610 V
1,59499 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,595562 V
1,59999 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,600561 V
1,60500 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,605582 V
1,60999 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,610573 V
1,61499 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,615595 V
1,62000 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,620537 V
1,62499 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,625551 V
1,63000 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,630610 V
1,63500 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,635585 V
1,64000 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,640646 V
1,64500 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,645622 V
1,64999 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,650611 V
1,65500 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,655679 V
1,66000 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,660636 V
1,66499 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,665652 V
1,66999 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,670616 V
1,67500 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,675591 V
1,67999 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,680624 V
1,68499 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,685629 V
1,69000 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,690679 V
1,69501 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,695663 V
1,69999 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,700650 V
1,70500 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,705666 V
1,70999 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,710669 V
1,71501 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,715711 V
1,72000 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,720716 V
1,72500 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,725695 V
1,72999 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,730690 V
1,73500 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,735705 V
1,74000 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,740719 V
1,74501 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,745682 V
1,74999 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,750679 V
1,75500 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,755712 V
1,76001 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,760754 V
1,76500 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,765756 V
1,76999 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,770797 V
1,77499 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,775777 V
1,78001 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,780775 V
1,78500 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,785800 V
1,79001 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,790793 V
1,79499 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,795787 V
1,80000 V ± 1̲00 μV 1,800816 V
Reducing the resolution to the accuracy limit would be too much. Quite often more resolution is needed, e.g. for relative values, changes or ratios. A limitation to the noise limit (of at least not much beyond that) would sometimes be nice. Especially the statistics values sometimes show way to many digits. For the SCPI interface this is less important as the program can take care of it. In computer times it is OK and more like best practice to record the data with a little more resolution than the noise limit, so that there is no significant rounding happening that could be avoided. Only writing down the significant digits is a thing of the past when writing down the numbers by hand.There's indeed a difference in showing numbers and calculating/working with them. Thats why a separate uncertainty value besides the measurement would be very handy: to keep them separate. Transferring uncertainty using significant digits, certainly with 10-based numbers is "destructive". (We should go binairy :D)
It could still be useful to also calculate / show the uncertainty. Still there are unknowns wether the 30 days or 1 year specs are more appropriate.
However the 6500 is not a metrology grade meter anyway. It's strength is more the graphical display and scanner option for a good price. Still the extra information could be handy in some cases.
Although the functionality is not built in, this could be implemented on the multimeter by using the TSP scripting API. You could write a script uses 'writable buffers' to store the result of the uncertainty calculation given the measurement, function, range, etc. A look up table for all functions and ranges would be a good way to do it... Writable buffers appear on the graph interface too, so you could possible see a +- line above and below your actual measured signal.Good remark. Would such a script have a required measurement loop on its own, or can it also be integrated (events?) in external loops as well.
A non user replaceable battery that only lasts some 1.8 years is kind of a fail :palm:. In the EU this could have odd implications with an mandatory 2 years minimum warranty.2y warranty in EU for consumers only.. Does not apply for commercial customers.. :D
Does anyone here use the Kickstart software with these and is it worth the trouble? It seems to add not that much but perhaps I am mistaken.Should I interpret the overwhelming lack of response as an equivalent lack of enthusiasm for Kickstart?
We might not be able to move the location of the battery, but I will have us investigate whether or not a better Vendor / type of battery could be used and what is the cause of the drain - might also be able to be improved.
I do have it (it was free) but I find myself not using it. (I only have the DMM6500 for it)Does anyone here use the Kickstart software with these and is it worth the trouble? It seems to add not that much but perhaps I am mistaken.Should I interpret the overwhelming lack of response as an equivalent lack of enthusiasm for Kickstart?
3 Year or lifetime KickStart license?Should I interpret the overwhelming lack of response as an equivalent lack of enthusiasm for Kickstart?I buy KickStart license some time ago(~2 year), and use it for my 2450 SMU and DMM6500, but not frequently.
It's a good software. I like it much more Keysight BenchVue. I will never buy BenchVue.
I don't remember price, but is not too high - forever use is 200-300 bucks or so....
As i hear in this topic - when you buy DMM6500 a Keithley grant KickStart for free. :-+
After buying license i created my own data logger software. But KickStart is still good for I/V curve on 2450. I don't regret about buying KickStart, in future i planned buy more Keithley SMU's, it will be very-very helpful.
Latest version 2.2.1 are fixed many bugs. It's useful version.
I recommend it :-+ :-DMM
Update on the battery Issue:
There was a clock running that was supposed to be shut down by firmware while in standby mode. This prematurely drains the battery.
Next Firmware 1.7.3 resolves this problem - I was told released in a couple of months.
For those of you replacing it on your own, please be careful as the holder has a very fragile clip that might break during the replacement.
Thanks
Update on the battery Issue:
There was a clock running that was supposed to be shut down by firmware while in standby mode. This prematurely drains the battery.
Next Firmware 1.7.3 resolves this problem - I was told released in a couple of months.
For those of you replacing it on your own, please be careful as the holder has a very fragile clip that might break during the replacement.
Thanks
I have 2 DMM6500 and love them.You can take a look at the process of writing a buffer live.
But for characterizing powerconsumption on CPU's, wireless devices etc etc, I would never use anything else than my Joulescope. So much better suited for this purpose.
It really takes 50 sec to get the graph? Or did they improve this in the latest FW? :-/OI can say that in the new version for 7510 it became even slightly worse:
That is also the reason why I disconnect the power line when I don't use it. So the standby button is more a reboot button for me.Before disconnecting the power line, does one need to bring it in standby mode first?
Touch screen display and higher processing power created the need for improved cooling over the other instruments you mentioned. The fan type, location and speed was carefully chosen to be considered quiet enough in an office environment for *most* people. Of course there are those who can still hear it and be bothered by it. To that end, individual opinions about it generally won't be helpful to another individual. YMMV. Hope this is helpful.I understand choices had to be made, it still means adding a fan to the lab. More importantly, it's adding a fan to a device which can be used for extended periods of time. It's not the end of the world as some other devices have fans too, but it's definitely a consideration. I also do understand that noise is very personal. I can stand some, but try to minimize it whenever I can. I know I tend to use noisy devices less, often unconsciously. Your posts here are much appreciated. I really welcome the engagement and helpful replies. It's good to see engineers care about the products they make.
The transformer hum was an issue on early units.. when did you purchase yours? Did you contact anybody about a replacement at that time? Transformer hum has been resolved for some time now.Its first calibration was on 4/14/2019 and it's my understanding that the Hum problem should be fixed, so I assume the 'fix' is present and it was even worse before. (I have no absolute reference since there is no hum spec)
Since you asked, there might be a command to get an internal temperature (not sure a user accessible one, I could check) but you asked about temperature of hot parts? - no there isn't one that can tell you about what parts are hot. Most of the measurement circuits are actually not hot, but rather want a temperature stability in their area.Any indicator that the device is still working within spec as before the change.
Also, transformer hum and fan noise are two different sources of audible noise and not related.Obviously
Has anyone had their DMM6500 or DAQ6510 calibrated yet and what did it cost you? I don't have much experience with Keithley calibrations but I hear they can be comparatively expensive.This was pulled from the Tek.com website
Has anyone had their DMM6500 or DAQ6510 calibrated yet and what did it cost you? I don't have much experience with Keithley calibrations but I hear they can be comparatively expensive.
This was pulled from the Tek.com websiteThat seems to coincide with the notion Keithley is comparatively expensive to maintain. Spare parts seem to be quite expensive too. It's surprising how much manufacturers differ in this regard. TTi is suprisingly reasonable. Keysight often has very affordable spares. Keithley seems to be quite expensive to the point of regularly not making sense and Fluke is just ridiculous, if they even grant you the privilege of buying a spare at all. Guess that's the Danaher Tax.
(Attachment Link)
I thought I remember reading in the manual/data-sheet that the calibration period for the DMM6500 was 2-years. I know mine was factory cal'd in 10/2008, so it isn't technically due yet. Tek's website is now saying recommended cal period is 1-year. Maybe they changed their mind :-//
I'm considering putting mine up for sale...
Just got one for my birthday from the Swiss official distributor. I visited them, we had a chat and although they weren't aware of the battery drain issue, they checked their stock and gave me a very recently produced unit (12.04.2020). Really nice guys.
Just got one for my birthday from the Swiss official distributor. I visited them, we had a chat and although they weren't aware of the battery drain issue, they checked their stock and gave me a very recently produced unit (12.04.2020). Really nice guys.
Did you get a detailed first calibration report?
Just got one for my birthday from the Swiss official distributor. I visited them, we had a chat and although they weren't aware of the battery drain issue, they checked their stock and gave me a very recently produced unit (12.04.2020). Really nice guys.
Did you get a detailed first calibration report?
The certificate inside the box states only that the meter is in calibration. I haven't requested any calibration services.
With modern meters, that are adjusted in software the test / cal just after the adjustment of the ranges should be very close to nominal. So there would be limited values to most of the numbers. If at all the AC ranges may show a little more, as not every test point may have it's own corresponding CAL constant. It would be interesting only if they do the adjustment in the factory and do the calibration / check just before delivery, so with more time in between.Yes, maybe I'm a bit biased as I have no other choice but to measure my LTZ1000 references with the DMM6500, which is of course a bit tricky anyway as I measure beyond the given nominal values. The more exact data of the initial adjustment and calibration would help there, even the dmm is comming from relative stock.
a non burned in LM399
PS crazy idea, is it possible to downclock the unit so the front panel creates less heating and doesn't need as much cooling?In the brightness settings of the display there is an item: "Display, key lights, and all indicators off: BLACkout "
It was found that most users / customers did not have any use for the full data report so that practice stopped in order to save processing time / cost. However, some people would still like the full report so it is available as a paid service and ordering option.
It was found that most users / customers did not have any use for the full data report so that practice stopped in order to save processing time / cost.How can you find out that your customers would rather do without this data from your comparatively very good measuring device?
However, some people would still like the full report so it is available as a paid service and ordering option.That's what im saying. This is annoying if one has to send back his just unpacked device for an extra payment, although such a thing should be part of the basic service and self-image of such a high-quality device. Especially since there is nothing described in the advertisement about it, as far as I can see.
That being said, hwj-d PM me your unit serial, I can probably get the 10V range adjust data you are using for your instrument since you seem to want it. Also, FYI you are measuring an LTZ1000 with a 6500 which has a non burned in LM399. Are you doing a time study or a temperature study?
It was found that most users / customers did not have any use for the full data report so that practice stopped in order to save processing time / cost. However, some people would still like the full report so it is available as a paid service and ordering option.
What I was intending to say was that we found most users do not have a direct need for the full report from the standpoint of making any use of that data (actual adjustments & uncertainties) for particular units.:palm:
Most people can look at our specifications and that is enough for them to understand the actual accuracy. Any application that requires knowing accuracy/uncertainties better than the published specs is unusual.
Honestly, I have found that most people who buy 6.5 Digit DMMs DO NOT need 6.5 digits for their typical application. Yes its nice to have, but you pay for it.
Um, I have concerns measuring LTZ1000 using LM399 instrument. Whatever drift you see, I dont think you can decide which reference has actually moved unless you have access to another lower drift reference to check it against. We don't publish the long term drift data for the 6500 directly - its only reflected in the 24 hour / 90 day /1 year / 2 year specs and even that has additional margin built into it.
It was found that most users / customers did not have any use for the full data report so that practice stopped in order to save processing time / cost. However, some people would still like the full report so it is available as a paid service and ordering option.
Sorry, but this "trust us" argument just doesn't cut it. After nagging support i got the cal reports for my DMM7510 and DAQ6510 respectively. Keysight gives you the factory cal report in an enclosed letter, no fuss. Who, in their right mind, would not want to have the "starting point", e.g. the initial factory calibration, of a meter with 6.5 digits or better resolution? Are customers using it as a interior decoration because of the nice colour screen, or somesuch? Most probable it's marketing dept BS made up to create the illusion of meeting customer expectations, while the real motive is increasing profit (saving a few minutes in mfg, getting some sheepish customers to pay extra for a report they should have received upfront). This is exactly like the statement "everybody has battery anxiety with electric cars, so we will only supply the cars on a lease basis. No one wants to outright buy the cars, including the 'risky' batteries, so we don't offer that option" - yeah, sure.
OTOH, I think you are doing the LM399 in the meter a disservice - my experience from a KS 34465A and a DAQ6510 is that, yes, the meters drift a little initially but the references are definitely pre-burned-in or selected for lowest drift, which is one of the things you do pay for with premium brand meters. I have another meter from a chinese mfg, SDM3065X, that very obviously had the LM399 just soldered in without any selection or pre-aging done; measurement was spot on day 1, not so much after a month (drifted out of 1y spec, even.)
I'm a bit sensitive to word weaseling, as you may have guessed, and I am quite specifically allergic to "the customers wanted this, so we listened to them" inverted argument, when the end result is bad for the customer and more $$$ for the mfg.
Hello dear E-Design!
I can't find any information in datasheet about what β-value you are design for NTC 10k temperature measurements?
I try use DMM6500 on NTC 10k with β 3870K but i see it is incorrect value, when i moving from 25С to any direction i see too much error.
It's looks like as you are using β-value too different... Maybe you use β-value around 34**K?
Also - how i can measure NTC 10k in 4-wire mode? (in Keysight DMM like as 34410A i can enable that mode)
Calibration report with detailed data - it's good of course. But this is not a reason to quarrel with E-Design.Please, Shodan, I love your posts, but ...
I think you must accept Tek rules or send a complaint to the representative office Tek.
E-Design is the representative of Tek. And that is exactly why he/she is in this forum.
Calibration report with detailed data - it's good of course. But this is not a reason to quarrel with E-Design.Please, Shodan, I love your posts, but ...
I think you must accept Tek rules or send a complaint to the representative office Tek.
E-Design is the representative of Tek. And that is exactly why he/she is in this forum.
Furthermore, an explanation such as "yes, the DMM is within its specification" as a calibration document is a real joke. You do not need a extra document for that. This is about traceable calibration data. In fact, without it, the measurements of this device are relatively worthless.
Please, don't go ad hominem.E-Design is the representative of Tek. And that is exactly why he/she is in this forum.
You are assuming E-Design is here in an official capacity where his time is paid for.
I'm not sure that is the situation.
Please be polite as many people, like me, appreciate his contributions here.
Hey guys, no worries... lets not bicker about small things.. if I can help you about your designs, testing or application just let me know. If you need information or connect with somebody at Tek, I can trace them down and get some answers. If you want to know about the hardware design, I can help. If you want to know about firmware, I can find out. :-+ If you want to complain - your opinion matters, and you can take it to the Tek forums or I will relay your message to the right people who can effect change.Thank's for coming back to "normal", E-Design. :phew:
hwj-d, get me your serial, I can get your adjustment data on a 65xx.
Thanks
The DMM6500 is by no means a meteorological instrument. It is more like a nice low cost graphical meter for every day tasks. For such a meter one usually does not need detailed cal data.If that meter is such a little nice "evey day task tool", than all the scanning tools and the DMAQ6510 is a not been taken seriously "nice tool", and all the Keithleys 6.5 DMM's too.
...
Also, some praise for Tek/Keithley:How'd you get those licenses? Just register it? I have some kit that sounds it may be eligible.
You get a free Kickstart license after registering your product. The software is good and also frequently updated/improved.
Not only did I get licenses for two DMMs, I also can claim Kickstart licenses for old equipment I bought used: one 2400 SMU, 2 x 2602A SMUs and one 2612A SMU - a total of four unclaimed licenses for which I have no use right now. So, free licenses for 15-20 yr old stuff - very generous.
My opinion on BenchVue and it's licensing model should not derail this thread, let's just say Keithley have much better S/W and a more generous licensing model. IMHO.
hwj-dCalibration is a business on its own but they're already doing it. At least, I sure hope they do. Making the data you already have available does represent a cost but that should be very minor once set up. While I get it's a cost saving measure it's pushing it too far if you ask me. It seems a bit silly to sell a precision instrument, only to go "lol dunno" when people ask about that.
I've bought number of items, DMMs, PSUs, etc from Keysight and other vendors before, and most of it comes without uncertainty data in calibration report, and such data not available even after request without ordering calibration service with data.
Black 3458A that came also did not have data in the 1 page calibration certificate and I was not able to get that.
Thinking that it cost nothing for factory to print few pages of paper with numbers is not right. That's what triggered me, not the lack of data points in report. Not denying need in numbers, just the expectation of it for free. :-DMM Try to get a piece of paper from PTB for your 10V reference for example. 1 page with a number will likely cost about four DMM6500s combined. Calibration is a business on its own, I've spent 3 years already on writing own software to do automated reports for my gear. Commercial MET/CAL software license cost tens of thousands a year too, so that fancy manufacturer lab gotta pay for it's maintenance somehow, unless we just accept increased cost for ALL products if the factory just include cost of callab into price of every bit sold. That will make everyone to pay to ensure few customers who actually value data are happy. ;)
My point was that I was not expecting it anyway. If you get instrument with calibration report + data, that is more of a welcome bonus. But you right, no point to discuss this, as what I get or you get does not mean what everybody who buys an insturment gets, as it can vary a lot from your distributor, geo and options you order with instrument.
How'd you get those licenses? Just register it? I have some kit that sounds it may be eligible.
... Try to get a piece of paper from PTB for your 10V reference for example. 1 page with a number will likely cost about four DMM6500s combined. ...
hwj-dCalibration is a business on its own but they're already doing it. At least, I sure hope they do. Making the data you already have available does represent a cost but that should be very minor once set up. While I get it's a cost saving measure it's pushing it too far if you ask me. It seems a bit silly to sell a precision instrument, only to go "lol dunno" when people ask about that.
I've bought number of items, DMMs, PSUs, etc from Keysight and other vendors before, and most of it comes without uncertainty data in calibration report, and such data not available even after request without ordering calibration service with data.
Black 3458A that came also did not have data in the 1 page calibration certificate and I was not able to get that.
Thinking that it cost nothing for factory to print few pages of paper with numbers is not right. That's what triggered me, not the lack of data points in report. Not denying need in numbers, just the expectation of it for free. :-DMM Try to get a piece of paper from PTB for your 10V reference for example. 1 page with a number will likely cost about four DMM6500s combined. Calibration is a business on its own, I've spent 3 years already on writing own software to do automated reports for my gear. Commercial MET/CAL software license cost tens of thousands a year too, so that fancy manufacturer lab gotta pay for it's maintenance somehow, unless we just accept increased cost for ALL products if the factory just include cost of callab into price of every bit sold. That will make everyone to pay to ensure few customers who actually value data are happy. ;)
My point was that I was not expecting it anyway. If you get instrument with calibration report + data, that is more of a welcome bonus. But you right, no point to discuss this, as what I get or you get does not mean what everybody who buys an insturment gets, as it can vary a lot from your distributor, geo and options you order with instrument.
...
Regardless, from a business perspective it does make absolute sense to withhold the document and charge for its access.
Unless the customer notices this "fraud" on him, which it is, if this data exists and is already automatically priced in by the non-existent effort.So here it's all about the balance of power between customer vs. marketing. And on which side do we as consumers really stand?
...No. Either or not. Either the data are absolutely necessary for the function of the device ready for sale, in which case they are of course already priced in, or one buys an incomplete, non-functional device, which provokes a considerable price reduction. Both together is not possible.
Margins are not great on T&M gear, calibration is expensive, so why not help try and recoup some of those cost by withholding this data from the customer? It makes sense from the business end.
I do feel like we have paid for this calibration (although I expect the cost factored into final price of the DMM6500 would be much less than a typical calibration would cost you).The argumentation front is not differentiated according to the different needs of individual persons (you and me), or groups of persons (power users or not), which I consider a rather obfuscating proxy argument.
Regardless, it makes no difference if the document is not as important to me as it is to you. I'm not arrogant enough to come in here and say your opinion doesn't matter because my opinion is different than yours.
So, if you want a document you already paid for (imho), I'm on your side and hope you get it! I will always be on the side of the consumer having more options, and more protections.
1. The document already existsNot always. Calibration certificate is somewhat more of a legal document, rather than technical. Yes, manufacturer usually have calibration results as part of their QA system when instrument is manufactured/verified. It may not be a report per ce though. Calibration certificate issued by lab have to be in line with release procedures and may be subject for audit, so for a fab it's not just a piece of paper with some numbers given by some fancy calibrator. If I connect DMM6500 to my calibrator, do bunch of tests, I still cannot provide legal calibration certificate, so me telling "this unit have 2 ppm error on 10V range" is just chit-chat and not a legal certification.
2. You have already paid to have this calibration done, since it is baked into the retail price of the instrument.There are different levels of calibration too. Factory calibration may not include as much points as top tier 17025 service. It is not limited to T&M gear. Components have same process - you can buy opamp which will most likely be in spec, but it will not have calibration report with measurement results for your particular piece. Most parts sold usually are not even tested to all datasheet specs, but rather window pass/fail criteria. If you want, you can pay more, and get calibration report or test data from your specific opamp/batch. It will not be $3 anymore, but you can do it.
3. Printing out these already EXISTING pages (or better yet just having it available online) certainly isn't costing 4x DMM6500 per unit. No company is going to sale a product for long that cost them 4x more to produce than they can sale it for.I've included 3458A calibration report that was included. There are no existing pages with data for it.
There is always more to the story, rather than evil corporations keeping customers in the dark , just because they are evil.interesting option. How do one come up with that?
Last bit of offtopic here from me.So they sell us unapproved equipment?Quote1. The document already existsNot always. Calibration certificate is somewhat more of a legal document, rather than technical. Yes, manufacturer usually have calibration results as part of their QA system when instrument is manufactured/verified. It may not be a report per ce though. Calibration certificate issued by lab have to be in line with release procedures and may be subject for audit, so for a fab it's not just a piece of paper with some numbers given by some fancy calibrator. If I connect DMM6500 to my calibrator, do bunch of tests, I still cannot provide legal calibration certificate, so me telling "this unit have 2 ppm error on 10V range" is just chit-chat and not a legal certification.
...
Last bit of offtopic here from me.Quote1. The document already existsNot always.
How'd you get those licenses? Just register it? I have some kit that sounds it may be eligible.
I did just register and get the licenses.
It may have been a time limited promo, though - I had not registered the latest 2602A so I did it right now. There was no license showing up. ??? ... The license part # is KSPROMONL-BASE, which kind of indicates that it is related to a promotion and may be time limited.
Unless the customer notices this "fraud" on him, which it is, if this data exists and is already automatically priced in by the non-existent effort.
So here it's all about the balance of power between customer vs. marketing. And on which side do we as consumers really stand?
Unless the customer notices this "fraud" on him, which it is, if this data exists and is already automatically priced in by the non-existent effort.We need to understand that we're probably not typical customers. Most of these will be bought with someone else's money. The hobbyist market is just a nice extra. I just don't think Danaher gives a crap about it.
So here it's all about the balance of power between customer vs. marketing. And on which side do we as consumers really stand?
Unless the customer notices this "fraud" on him, which it is, if this data exists and is already automatically priced in by the non-existent effort.We need to understand that we're probably not typical customers. Most of these will be bought with someone else's money. The hobbyist market is just a nice extra. I just don't think Danaher gives a crap about it.
So here it's all about the balance of power between customer vs. marketing. And on which side do we as consumers really stand?
hwj-d, I was wondering why the specs are not enough for you. Could you give concrete/practical examples of what kind of analyses you want to do where specs are not enough and you require cal data? Or is this discussion more about the policies of test equipment companies?I can tell you why this is necessary.
That this discussion has to be held at all is a joke, isn't it? I mean, "the helping hand" has already failed at the crucial point of withholding the crucial documentation.
That this discussion has to be held at all is a joke, isn't it? I mean, "the helping hand" has already failed at the crucial point of withholding the crucial documentation.
That this discussion has to be held at all is a joke, isn't it? I mean, "the helping hand" has already failed at the crucial point of withholding the crucial documentation.
The discussion doesn't have to be held, and seems a complete waste of time for you. How about go start another thread.. this one is borderline off topic at this point.
That this discussion has to be held at all is a joke, isn't it? I mean, "the helping hand" has already failed at the crucial point of withholding the crucial documentation.
The discussion doesn't have to be held, and seems a complete waste of time for you. How about go start another thread.. this one is borderline off topic at this point.
Thanks Mr. Keithley for your statement. A company that personally mocks its clients the way you are doing right now, does not have the competence to be referenced in my firm. I will discard all Keithley gauges over time, and will advise my clients to refrain from using Keithley, citing your personally abusive behavior. Thank you for your clarification in this regard, this will protect many of my customers from similar negative experiences.
Communication closed with you.
With kind regards
In that class of Instrument (low end 6 digit), I would not expect extra calibration data. Anyway with a digital adjustment expect the data read back to be essentially spot on down to the noise level. So the read back data from the initial calibration (with adjustment) are of little use, especially as there can be quite some drift in the initial phase. The numbers may be useful for the 2nd and 3rd calibration - here it is up to the customers choice.Let's all agree to disagree and move on. We're not going to get anywhere rehashing the same opposing views.
So I would not blame Keithley for not wasting paper on pretty useless numbers that may give ignorant people a false believe in extra accuracy.
In that class of Instrument (low end 6 digit), I would not expect extra calibration data. Anyway with a digital adjustment expect the data read back to be essentially spot on down to the noise level. So the read back data from the initial calibration (with adjustment) are of little use, especially as there can be quite some drift in the initial phase. The numbers may be useful for the 2nd and 3rd calibration - here it is up to the customers choice.You keep insisting a DMM6500 is a low grade instrument but other than from the perspective of a rabid volt nut that seems to be pushing it. 0.0075% and that dynamic range is pretty good in the real world and bought for other reasons than say a Fluke 87V.
So I would not blame Keithley for not wasting paper on pretty useless numbers that may give ignorant people a false believe in extra accuracy.
:DIn that class of Instrument (low end 6 digit), I would not expect extra calibration data. Anyway with a digital adjustment expect the data read back to be essentially spot on down to the noise level. So the read back data from the initial calibration (with adjustment) are of little use, especially as there can be quite some drift in the initial phase. The numbers may be useful for the 2nd and 3rd calibration - here it is up to the customers choice.Let's all agree to disagree and move on. We're not going to get anywhere rehashing the same opposing views.
So I would not blame Keithley for not wasting paper on pretty useless numbers that may give ignorant people a false believe in extra accuracy.
That this discussion has to be held at all is a joke, isn't it? I mean, "the helping hand" has already failed at the crucial point of withholding the crucial documentation.
The discussion doesn't have to be held, and seems a complete waste of time for you. How about go start another thread.. this one is borderline off topic at this point.
Thanks Mr. Keithley for your statement. A company that personally mocks its clients the way you are doing right now, does not have the competence to be referenced in my firm. I will discard all Keithley gauges over time, and will advise my clients to refrain from using Keithley, citing your personally abusive behavior. Thank you for your clarification in this regard, this will protect many of my customers from similar negative experiences.
Communication closed with you.
With kind regards
That quote was supposed to be someone else. Back to discussing features and accuracy and such. :):DIn that class of Instrument (low end 6 digit), I would not expect extra calibration data. Anyway with a digital adjustment expect the data read back to be essentially spot on down to the noise level. So the read back data from the initial calibration (with adjustment) are of little use, especially as there can be quite some drift in the initial phase. The numbers may be useful for the 2nd and 3rd calibration - here it is up to the customers choice.Let's all agree to disagree and move on. We're not going to get anywhere rehashing the same opposing views.
So I would not blame Keithley for not wasting paper on pretty useless numbers that may give ignorant people a false believe in extra accuracy.
You keep insisting a DMM6500 is a low grade instrument but other than from the perspective of a rabid volt nut that seems to be pushing it. 0.0075% and that dynamic range is pretty good in the real world and bought for other reasons than say a Fluke 87V.
,Now i see all E-Design posts are disappear from that thread. I think it is bad sign.I confirm. From the topic about DMM7510, all messages also disappeared. In my opinion this is ugly :(
I stand behind my opinion. Even if some people can't handle it.
,Now i see all E-Design posts are disappear from that thread. I think it is bad sign.I confirm. From the topic about DMM7510, all messages also disappeared. In my opinion this is ugly :(
DM6500, Keysight 34460, 34461, 34465 and all similar instruments are not metrology grade instruments. Sorry to disappoint.That was pretty much my point. Comparing meters to a 3458A or Fluke 8508A and saying they don't compare well is saying no one lives in a nice house because the Palace of Versailles is nicer. While true it's also besides the point and appears to show little sense of scale.
They all come with datasheets that exactly specify what are their measurement uncertainties (that are in several tens of ppm in best ranges) . Even if you have calibration data that shows that you instrument had zero error on say 10V range three months ago, today, all anybody knows is that you should be in 90 days accuracy spec that for DMM6500 would be 20ppm + 5ppm ±(% OF READING + % OF RANGE) ), meaning 10 V ± 250uV. You might be better than that (and probably would be) but if you had even 248 uV of error (meaning last 2 digits would be wrong) you still would be in specification and instrument would be considered in good shape. On other ranges situation is much worse actually. Keysight 34460 that is also 6.5 digit meter, is much worse on 10 V range. It has 90 days spec of (50 ppm + 5ppm ±(% OF READING + % OF RANGE) ) that translates to error of max ±550 uV on 10 V voltage, before it is out of spec. More than half of millivolt.. And that is for 90 days. More than 1 years after calibration, 34460 can have ±1 mV error when measuring 10V and still would be in spec. That would mean, that at that point, last 2 digits are completely meaningless in terms of absolute accuracy..
Most of instruments in that class do much better than spec, but manufacturer guarantees only that they will be in spec. And if you use those instruments in your work, all you can guarantee to your customers is that you measured with instrument that is in spec..
That is for absolute accuracy measurements. For relative measurements, all you can guarantee is 24 hour specs.
So when you accept those facts, why would manufacturer give you data that is meaningless, except statement instrument is in specification... If you want play with instrument pretending it is something it isn't, that is users problem. But, even if you calibrate DMM6500 every day and it has no error for 5 years, and suddenly one day it has 13ppm error on 10V range, it would still be fully in spec.
Actually, compared with competition, DMM6500 has very impressive specs that almost seem too optimistic. It has better 2 year specs than Keysight 34465 1 year's spec on 10 V range for instance..
But none of those are Keysight 3458, or Fluke 8508A, and calibration practice is not the same...
Calling me a troll is an insult. And this from a contestant with a whole thanks of 3 times, compared to my 183rd. Ok, I'll pull some of Mr.Keysight's that I guess weren't quite so serious. I never thought that I would have to refer to such a score here in the forum, but here it shows, where this "troll screaming" comes from. From people who simply run out of arguments. Instead of accepting different opinions, they switch to the personal level and fire what they can, even if the whole forum cohesion breaks down. Seems to be a depravity of a modern discourse culture, incapable of accepting a different opinions. They prefer to ramble on about ignorance lists, so that they would rather not see the other opinion.The point is not that your opinion is wrong, but that it's out of place here when it goes on for too long. At that point it's steering the actual thread off course and changing it into something else. That's when opening another thread starts becoming more suitable. No one says you can't express your views but no one likes it when that one guy goes on and on about his at the Christmas party. At some point he's kindly asked to move along.
Dear people, this is pure socialism. In the end, there is an anthill of individuals who are completely conformist. But only a pluralistic view of things brings creativity and cultural awareness.
I stand behind my opinion. Even if some people can't handle it.
Hey guys, I am still here and willing to help anybody out (even hwj-d) because I am happy to do it and participate in all the cool projects, discussions and topics.Can you tell us something about the decisions involved in picking the hardware for this meter, especially the front end UI hardware part? It seems there are incredible options available in the form of ridiculously powerful and efficient phone SoCs. Do you have any insights how and why you ended up with the machine we see today? I understand this may not be your cup of tea, so please feel free to tell us about your part. :)
I got rid of some of my old posts because I am not an Apps Eng or here for any official reasons related to Tek or Keithley. I'm just here on my own accord. I dont want to misrepresent myself or cause confusion!
Sorry about that.
If anybody wants some help or support with KI or Tek products , I can work on it for you or at least get you connected to the right people.
No worries, hopefully some tech discussion gets us back on topic. :-+
The discussion about whether a bare bones base model dmm6500 should come with or without a call report:horse: :horse: :horse:
is rather pointless....
The discussion about whether a bare bones base model dmm6500 should come with or without a call reportPlease, let it go. We're going to endlessly continue the discussion if individual members keep bringing it up again no matter how well intended.
is rather pointless.
As always, you get what you pay for, and you don't get what you don't pay for.
The first time I've purchased a brand new car it came with a less than half full fuel tank,
although disappointed because my expectation was different I really had no right to because
the friendly dealer delivered what I had ordered, no agreements were made on the amount of fuel in the car.
If I had at time of purchase made a agreement with the dealer to deliver the car with a full tank of fuel
he had certainly done so, but I hadn't.
Maybe even could have worked in a inflatable pink crocodile into the deal, but also hadn't, so have to accept that I have to continue live without one, unless I purchase one.
(Attachment Link)
Hey guys, I am still here and willing to help anybody out (even hwj-d) because I am happy to do it and participate in all the cool projects, discussions and topics.
If anybody wants some help or support with KI or Tek products , I can work on it for you or at least get you connected to the right people.
Hey guys, I am still here and willing to help anybody out (even hwj-d) because I am happy to do it and participate in all the cool projects, discussions and topics.Can you tell us something about the decisions involved in picking the hardware for this meter, especially the front end UI hardware part? It seems there are incredible options available in the form of ridiculously powerful and efficient phone SoCs. Do you have any insights how and why you ended up with the machine we see today? I understand this may not be your cup of tea, so please feel free to tell us about your part. :)
I got rid of some of my old posts because I am not an Apps Eng or here for any official reasons related to Tek or Keithley. I'm just here on my own accord. I dont want to misrepresent myself or cause confusion!
Sorry about that.
If anybody wants some help or support with KI or Tek products , I can work on it for you or at least get you connected to the right people.
No worries, hopefully some tech discussion gets us back on topic. :-+
Hey guys, I am still here and willing to help anybody out (even hwj-d) because I am happy to do it and participate in all the cool projects, discussions and topics.
If anybody wants some help or support with KI or Tek products , I can work on it for you or at least get you connected to the right people.
Hello E-Design,
I recently (after upgrading the firmware) began experiencing some issues with the power button of the DMM6500. When I press the button to turn it off sometimes (maybe 30% of the times) it immediately turns on again, as if it was some kind of debouncing issue. Are you aware of any modification to the firmware that could have caused that or do you think the problem is not related to the firmware at all?
I'm getting a 2450, and I was checking the TSP-Link addon of the DMM6500, but then I found it apparently is possible to use the LAN to communicate between Keithley instruments (which of course would spare me some money). What are the differences between using TSP-NET and TSP-Link to communicate between Keithley instruments?
Thanks in advance
Hey guys, I am still here and willing to help anybody out (even hwj-d) because I am happy to do it and participate in all the cool projects, discussions and topics.
If anybody wants some help or support with KI or Tek products , I can work on it for you or at least get you connected to the right people.
Hello E-Design,
I recently (after upgrading the firmware) began experiencing some issues with the power button of the DMM6500. When I press the button to turn it off sometimes (maybe 30% of the times) it immediately turns on again, as if it was some kind of debouncing issue. Are you aware of any modification to the firmware that could have caused that or do you think the problem is not related to the firmware at all?
I'm getting a 2450, and I was checking the TSP-Link addon of the DMM6500, but then I found it apparently is possible to use the LAN to communicate between Keithley instruments (which of course would spare me some money). What are the differences between using TSP-NET and TSP-Link to communicate between Keithley instruments?
Thanks in advance
As far as UI features go, we have followed some systems and guidelines from "UX" design methodologies to develop interfaces that "most" people can work with right away and not have a frustrating experience (hopefully)
Hope it helps clarify how we ended up with what we got today
...........
the intention is that the 65xx replaces Model2000, Model 2700, Model 2701 -
...........
...........
the intention is that the 65xx replaces Model2000, Model 2700, Model 2701 -
...........
I'd guess also the tek 4000 series?
Is there a dmm5050 in the works? :popcorn:
Hey guys, I am still here and willing to help anybody out (even hwj-d) because I am happy to do it and participate in all the cool projects, discussions and topics.
If anybody wants some help or support with KI or Tek products , I can work on it for you or at least get you connected to the right people.
Hello E-Design,
I recently (after upgrading the firmware) began experiencing some issues with the power button of the DMM6500. When I press the button to turn it off sometimes (maybe 30% of the times) it immediately turns on again, as if it was some kind of debouncing issue. Are you aware of any modification to the firmware that could have caused that or do you think the problem is not related to the firmware at all?
I'm getting a 2450, and I was checking the TSP-Link addon of the DMM6500, but then I found it apparently is possible to use the LAN to communicate between Keithley instruments (which of course would spare me some money). What are the differences between using TSP-NET and TSP-Link to communicate between Keithley instruments?
Thanks in advance
Another big driver was the longevity - a lot of the cool UI / displays today are connected to industry trends that are tied to cell phone and IOT markets - SUPER VOLATILE.. Here today, gone tomorrow. We just cant fathom designing a meter with a continuously going obsolete display so we demanded something that will be around for a long time (working with our vendors)We had the same discussion at the office some years ago, the screen will always be old for devices that are supposed to have a long live time and take time to develop with limited resources. So we decided to go black box and let an industrial panel, PC or tablet be an added choice at that time. "You want a bigger nice screen? then buy one!".
TSP-NET and TSP-LinkAre there any good examples of using one and the two?
QuoteTSP-NET and TSP-LinkAre there any good examples of using one and the two?
QuoteTSP-NET and TSP-LinkAre there any good examples of using one and the two?
I know how a crossover cable is wired, even from memory.
You also know there are two different rj45 pinout standards?Electrically these look the same, the orange and green markings are the only difference.
You also know there are two different rj45 pinout standards?Electrically these look the same, the orange and green markings are the only difference.
Yes, but if he started out with a pre-made cable which uses 568A on one side and he wired the other side as (crossed) 568B
it would cause trouble, still something worth to check.
Yes, but if he started out with a pre-made cable which uses 568A on one side and he wired the other side as (crossed) 568B
it would cause trouble, still something worth to check.
I've so far only used pre-made molded cables. Checked electrically for 1-3, 2-6, 3-1, 6-2. Also optically; the wires can clearly be seen through the transparent connectors.
EDIT: Also, all cables work OK as GigE network cables.
The cables supplied by Keithley for TSP are wired in the following config:
1-3
2-6
3-1
4-4
5-5
6-2
7-7
8-8
Interesting.
So a T-568A to T-568B cross-over cable?
Hi Guys,
Has anyone used the Raw Socket communication over LAN with the DMM6500? With the instruments I've used in the past I would use Putty and just type in commands, but with the DMM6500 I cannot get it to even return a *IDN? command. Any tips? The manual says that raw socket communication is on port 5025, which is what I've used (with no luck). The TCP/IP connection does get established, but I cannot get the DMM to return anything.
Has anyone used the Raw Socket communication over LAN with the DMM6500?
I use Raw socket with lxi library (https://github.com/lxi-tools/liblxi) at least 6-9 months, no problem.
I found only one issue with raw sockets - after each command need send "\n" control character to instrument.a *IDN? command.
I'm not sure, but "*IDN?" it's SCPI command.
Try switch dmm's to SCPI command set.
Also - i think you can't talk with dmm's directly via Putty. When i use LXI i must set "instance" to "inst0", without that dmm no answer anything. Probably need some special to set that when you send data directly.
Try use telnet to talk with dmm directly(DMM6500-901-01 Rev. B / September 2019 page 2-20).
I'm trying to use port 5025, which should be basically printf over TCP/IP. At least that's what I've been used to with other instruments I've used SCPI with. I'm a fairly old-style programmer and I write my scripts mostly in C and Linux. To communicate the raw socket way with a device, I don't need any libraries, just standard BSD sockets (which every programming language has built in).
I found on Keithley web-site contacts of Fluke Moscow, but he decline my request. He answer - We are not an authorized service center for Keithely DMM's :horse: And forward me to unknown lab, i create request and waiting....There is a site http://www.actimaster.ru/ (http://www.actimaster.ru/) they brought the device into the state registry. Perhaps they can calibrate it ...
If they make me Z540.1 w/Data calibration and provide official traceability Keithley certificate i use it.I'm afraid they will calibrate it according to the Russian method in accordance with the type certificate. Those. relative to Russian standards. Not Fluke standards.
I try... thanks.
If it's true, i do not buying Keithley anymore.In my opinion this is a common Russian practice. If you want the instrument to be checked by the Keithley laboratory, you will have to send them the device by mail. Perhaps sellers of this firm can help with this.
First, a disclaimer that I'm impressed by the level of functionality of DMM6500 in general, and I understand there's a lot of extra firmware complexity in supporting multiple channels like 2000-SCAN. I think it will be a popular model. However, there are still some bugs to iron out.
Specifically for 2000-SCAN:
*) When setting up channels, the displayed unit doesn't update until the channel is manually switched, making it quite confusing what is going on.
*) The graph scale is not updated when changing what channel is viewed (when changing from viewing 24 C temperature to a channel with 100 ohm resistance, the graph will show 24 ohm, when it should be 100 ohm). When Y-axis SmartScale is active, the axis is zoomed when the next reading appears but not sooner. For a slow scan sequence, the graph can have the wrong range settings for quite a while.
*) At this point, pressing the plus-like arrow button in the upper right to autoscale the graph does *not* correct the Y scaling until a new sample is taken. Besides, the autoscale is quite unhelpful as it prevents manually scrolling afterwards.
*) When looking at the graph of one channel that takes a burst of readings (count=10) every 10 seconds or so. Settings: X-axis=SmartScale, Y-axis=Autoscale. The Y-axis only adapts to the latest burst in some cases; some bursts go past without autoscaling.
I have also seen a bunch of other bugs, relating to sampling, graph grapics and especially the histogram view. I also lost a night of logging when the DMM froze when I attempted to view the graph in the morning.
I've try contact with Tek again, but no answer received about calibration.
Now i do perform "the last try" - tek thread (https://forum.tek.com/viewtopic.php?f=617&t=142291) started.
... We are working on documentation for the apps to release sometime later this year, the commands are still very fluid as we make some apps ourselves and figure out how we'd like the commands to work. If you have some ideas for what you'd like to do with the interface could you send them along to me? We're trying to put together a "wish list" of apps, I could also send you some of the documentation we have right now....Is that documentation available? I checked the DMM650 download area and the latest TSB help files, but couldn't find an App tutorial/API.
After beating around the bush for way too long I bit the bullet and bought one of these puppies. My decision was almost exclusively based on the excellent review by Shahriar of The Signal Path. I cannot stress enough how instrumental his reviews are to get a good understanding of these kinds of tools. Keithley, please send him all your stuff.
The functionality of the meter is amazing. I've been working my way through the various features and there are so many possibilities. The previous generation of meters was excellent in its own right but this really is a world apart. From the perspective of functionality it's an incredibly useful tool. I was curious how well the touch screen would actually work but it's perfectly fine and doesn't get in the way.
Unfortunately, this meter is going back as it seems to suffer from a few quality issues.
-It hums. I bought this unit from an official dealer after being repaired and recalibrated and recertified by Keithley, as it was reported to suffer from the humming issue by a previous owner. Unfortunately it still produces a noticeable mains hum which can be heard across the bench, unlike various other meters and devices.
-The right side touch screen moves 0.5-1mm back and forth when touched. The left side seems attached as is to be expected.
- Other quirks I noticed are that the front terminal led indicator also seems to illuminate a small square section of the front panel through the plastic, sort of between the terminal selection switch and the socket above it. This is most visible with less ambient light.
- Finally the fan is isn't horrible loud, although it isn't exactly quiet either. But does it ever whine. It easily cuts through other ambient sounds. I don't think I've encountered a product with such a whiny fan in a long time.
This leaves me wondering whether Keithley pushed a bit too hard in their pursuit to bring the price down or the profit margin up. The actual device and its functionality are great, but there are a few details which let it down and which unfortunately go a long way in determining the liveability. I'm unsure whether it's an issue with quality control or with quality standards, but one of those is not what I'd expect it to be. What's your experience?
I must join the previous speakers and repeat the remark about a very noisy fan. It really poisons life. :horse:
After beating around the bush for way too long I bit the bullet and bought one of these puppies. My decision was almost exclusively based on the excellent review by Shahriar of The Signal Path. I cannot stress enough how instrumental his reviews are to get a good understanding of these kinds of tools. Keithley, please send him all your stuff.
The functionality of the meter is amazing. I've been working my way through the various features and there are so many possibilities. The previous generation of meters was excellent in its own right but this really is a world apart. From the perspective of functionality it's an incredibly useful tool. I was curious how well the touch screen would actually work but it's perfectly fine and doesn't get in the way.
Unfortunately, this meter is going back as it seems to suffer from a few quality issues.
-It hums. I bought this unit from an official dealer after being repaired and recalibrated and recertified by Keithley, as it was reported to suffer from the humming issue by a previous owner. Unfortunately it still produces a noticeable mains hum which can be heard across the bench, unlike various other meters and devices.
-The right side touch screen moves 0.5-1mm back and forth when touched. The left side seems attached as is to be expected.
- Other quirks I noticed are that the front terminal led indicator also seems to illuminate a small square section of the front panel through the plastic, sort of between the terminal selection switch and the socket above it. This is most visible with less ambient light.
- Finally the fan is isn't horrible loud, although it isn't exactly quiet either. But does it ever whine. It easily cuts through other ambient sounds. I don't think I've encountered a product with such a whiny fan in a long time.
This leaves me wondering whether Keithley pushed a bit too hard in their pursuit to bring the price down or the profit margin up. The actual device and its functionality are great, but there are a few details which let it down and which unfortunately go a long way in determining the liveability. I'm unsure whether it's an issue with quality control or with quality standards, but one of those is not what I'd expect it to be. What's your experience?
After beating around the bush for way too long I bit the bullet and bought one of these puppies. My decision was almost exclusively based on the excellent review by Shahriar of The Signal Path. I cannot stress enough how instrumental his reviews are to get a good understanding of these kinds of tools. Keithley, please send him all your stuff.
The functionality of the meter is amazing. I've been working my way through the various features and there are so many possibilities. The previous generation of meters was excellent in its own right but this really is a world apart. From the perspective of functionality it's an incredibly useful tool. I was curious how well the touch screen would actually work but it's perfectly fine and doesn't get in the way.
Unfortunately, this meter is going back as it seems to suffer from a few quality issues.
-It hums. I bought this unit from an official dealer after being repaired and recalibrated and recertified by Keithley, as it was reported to suffer from the humming issue by a previous owner. Unfortunately it still produces a noticeable mains hum which can be heard across the bench, unlike various other meters and devices.
-The right side touch screen moves 0.5-1mm back and forth when touched. The left side seems attached as is to be expected.
- Other quirks I noticed are that the front terminal led indicator also seems to illuminate a small square section of the front panel through the plastic, sort of between the terminal selection switch and the socket above it. This is most visible with less ambient light.
- Finally the fan is isn't horrible loud, although it isn't exactly quiet either. But does it ever whine. It easily cuts through other ambient sounds. I don't think I've encountered a product with such a whiny fan in a long time.
This leaves me wondering whether Keithley pushed a bit too hard in their pursuit to bring the price down or the profit margin up. The actual device and its functionality are great, but there are a few details which let it down and which unfortunately go a long way in determining the liveability. I'm unsure whether it's an issue with quality control or with quality standards, but one of those is not what I'd expect it to be. What's your experience?
Congrats on the new meter, although that is unfortunate it has so many issues that shouldn't be there. Hopefully you will be able to get the meter returned/replaced with little fuss. Overall I've been fairly happy with my DMM6500. Besides the dual V/I measurement fiasco, The only other problem I feel worth mentioning is the blue screens. Although I honestly haven't had one of those in a long time.
I came really close to selling the DMM6500 not too long ago, but decided to keep it in the end. The DMM7510 is going up for sale soon though. That one was only purchased for a specific project, and I've just been stalling/trying to convince myself that I need a 7.5 digit meter at home (I don't).
Dear friend E-design.
I must join the previous speakers and repeat the remark about a very noisy fan. It really poisons life. :horse:
I have a question or request. There are two scripts for measuring power. One was created by Keithley staff, and the second is written by Mike Green. Unfortunately, both programs have flaws and turn work into torment. This includes the need to restart the device, the impossibility of an operative stop and restart of the measurement, difficult access to the buffer, the lack of access to control the filter and the NPLC parameter .......
If it is possible to take the best of both programs and remove the defects? The script could become a full and essential function.
Thanks.
All, it was never designed to support a power measurement. I know there are scripts, but the only clean way to do this is to have 2 simultaneous A/D conversions (one for I and one for V).
The hardware wasn't architect-ed to do this.
Every implementation tends to be a hack that have issues. We know its an important feature, but it never made the list of essential requirements.
Yes, I understand the frustrations with blue screens.. please try to find steps to reproduce and take a photo of the screen --then report it, I can have firmware engineers look at it - its the only way to solve these bugs.
That is fine, and certainly understandable. I really never took issue with it not working. I kind of take issue with the limitation not being documented, and both the user and reference manual both have pictures showing dual V/I measurement setups. I feel that it is still implied that it works (unless you stumble upon this thread).or this one: https://forum.tek.com/viewtopic.php?f=617&t=141896 (you can also get there via youtube)
That is fine, and certainly understandable. I really never took issue with it not working. I kind of take issue with the limitation not being documented, and both the user and reference manual both have pictures showing dual V/I measurement setups. I feel that it is still implied that it works (unless you stumble upon this thread).or this one: https://forum.tek.com/viewtopic.php?f=617&t=141896 (you can also get there via youtube)
How do u guys find the screen on 6500 ? Is it responsive or laggy? What do u clean it with ? I assume its some matte finish.It's surprisingly good. I was worried about it but it just works. It's not up to the 120 Hz goodness of modern smartphones but I never feel it's laggy.
Also, how long are these supposed to last, before the screen goes crazy ? I few real buttons would be nice.
The problem is not so much that the update did (kind of) correct a minor bug. The problem is that there are other known bugs that are more critical (e.g. fast draining battery) that seem to be still here.The time to fix the battery problem is running out for many people so I hope that has some priority.
If there is nothing more fixed, this is more like a bad sign of currently not much support going on. This may be due to the special times we have - though fixing software is one of those things that might by done from the home office too. There could be other reasons (e.g. new HW coming, a mayor SW update in the making) for delays.
The problem is not so much that the update did (kind of) correct a minor bug. The problem is that there are other known bugs that are more critical (e.g. fast draining battery) that seem to be still here.The time to fix the battery problem is running out for many people so I hope that has some priority.
If there is nothing more fixed, this is more like a bad sign of currently not much support going on. This may be due to the special times we have - though fixing software is one of those things that might by done from the home office too. There could be other reasons (e.g. new HW coming, a mayor SW update in the making) for delays.
Hi. This will be my first EEVBLOG post. I have been lurking the YouTube channel for a while and enjoy it a lot. This is a great community!
I found this thread while searching the web to discover if anyone else has had a blue screen problem. I came across the HJK post here. Their Keithley DMM6500 may have been experiencing the blue screen because of old firmware issues, judging by the date of the post, but I wanted to see if the community has experienced more of these blue screens.
My Keithley DMM6500 has experienced blue screens twice now. This instrument was recieved in October of last year and I started to use it for the first time last month. I left it running in DCV mode while I pressed the graph button to enlarge the figure, it crashed unexpectedly without any connections. I proceded to update the firmware as technical support suggested. However, this did not fix the problem.
Again, I encounted a "fatal error" when I was browsing the menu while analysing a DCV of an op-amp output. A picture is attached. When this happened, I immediately sent it in for inspection to the distributor company that I purchased it from. They suggested I update the firmware, but they could not find anything wrong with it. They also recommended that I pay for a calibration. I told them that it was out of the question because the product is still under warranty and is not the customers problem that the product is defective -- I already paid good money to ship it with insurance. They are likely returning it to the factory for a "warranty repair evaluation."
Questions: What are my rights here as a consumer in Canada? Has anyone experienced this problem after firmware updates? Is this a software or hardware issue? Would it be typical in this situation to recieve a loner DMM while I wait for this repair?
Any help would be most appreciated. Thank you EEVBLOG.
Hi. This will be my first EEVBLOG post. I have been lurking the YouTube channel for a while and enjoy it a lot. This is a great community!
I found this thread while searching the web to discover if anyone else has had a blue screen problem. I came across the HJK post here. Their Keithley DMM6500 may have been experiencing the blue screen because of old firmware issues, judging by the date of the post, but I wanted to see if the community has experienced more of these blue screens.
My Keithley DMM6500 has experienced blue screens twice now. This instrument was recieved in October of last year and I started to use it for the first time last month. I left it running in DCV mode while I pressed the graph button to enlarge the figure, it crashed unexpectedly without any connections. I proceded to update the firmware as technical support suggested. However, this did not fix the problem.
Again, I encounted a "fatal error" when I was browsing the menu while analysing a DCV of an op-amp output. A picture is attached. When this happened, I immediately sent it in for inspection to the distributor company that I purchased it from. They suggested I update the firmware, but they could not find anything wrong with it. They also recommended that I pay for a calibration. I told them that it was out of the question because the product is still under warranty and is not the customers problem that the product is defective -- I already paid good money to ship it with insurance. They are likely returning it to the factory for a "warranty repair evaluation."
Questions: What are my rights here as a consumer in Canada? Has anyone experienced this problem after firmware updates? Is this a software or hardware issue? Would it be typical in this situation to recieve a loner DMM while I wait for this repair?
Any help would be most appreciated. Thank you EEVBLOG.
Did you update your firmware as the distributor recommended(it is not completely clear if you did this)? I haven't gotten a blue screen in a quite a while. Latest firmware is 1.72 I believe.
Are you sure you didn't had some error/warning messages during the update?
I had it but reverting to the previous one fixed it, retrying the update fixed it.
You can try firmware 1.7.2 to see if that one updates without error.
Can you also give an idea how frequent you have these problems, many times a day?
It has been a while (months) since I had a blue screen.
Welcome to the eevblog forum, leighcorrigall
I have been using my DMM6500 a lot and since one of these FW updates, I never had a blue screen again.
Maybe something else is wrong with your unit.
So, it seems to be a good idea to be checked out by the manufacturer.
local function timerSetup()
trigger.timer[1].reset()
trigger.timer[1].delay = 1.
trigger.timer[1].start.stimulus = trigger.EVENT_NOTIFY1
trigger.timer[1].start.generate = trigger.OFF
trigger.timer[1].count = 0
trigger.timer[1].enable = trigger.ON
end
local function modelTiming()
timer.cleartime()
trigger.model.initiate()
waitcomplete()
print(timer.gettime())
end
reset()
timerSetup()
trigger.model.load("Empty")
trigger.model.setblock(1, trigger.BLOCK_NOTIFY, trigger.EVENT_NOTIFY1)
trigger.model.setblock(2, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_TIMER1)
modelTiming()
timerSetup()
trigger.model.load("Empty")
trigger.model.setblock(1, trigger.BLOCK_NOTIFY, trigger.EVENT_NOTIFY1)
trigger.model.setblock(2, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_TIMER1)
trigger.model.setblock(3, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_TIMER1)
modelTiming()
timerSetup()
trigger.model.load("Empty")
trigger.model.setblock(1, trigger.BLOCK_NOTIFY, trigger.EVENT_NOTIFY1)
trigger.model.setblock(2, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_TIMER1)
trigger.model.setblock(3, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_TIMER1)
trigger.model.setblock(4, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_TIMER1)
modelTiming()
timerSetup()
trigger.model.load("Empty")
trigger.model.setblock(1, trigger.BLOCK_NOTIFY, trigger.EVENT_NOTIFY1)
trigger.model.setblock(2, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_TIMER1)
trigger.model.setblock(3, trigger.BLOCK_DELAY_CONSTANT, 0.2)
trigger.model.setblock(4, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_TIMER1)
modelTiming()
timerSetup()
trigger.model.load("Empty")
trigger.model.setblock(1, trigger.BLOCK_NOTIFY, trigger.EVENT_NOTIFY1)
trigger.model.setblock(2, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_TIMER1)
trigger.model.setblock(3, trigger.BLOCK_DELAY_CONSTANT, 0.3)
trigger.model.setblock(4, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_TIMER1)
modelTiming()
1.000224076
1.000238197
2.00022641
1.200241196
2.000275546
1
2
3
2
2
Event detectors can latch events.
Since your event timer is essentially free running (count = 0), your BLOCK_WAIT is proceeding (too soon) due to a latched timer event from an "old" EVENT_TIMER1.
You can optionally clear as you enter wait blocks:
trigger.model.setblock(2, trigger.BLOCK_WAIT, trigger.EVENT_TIMER1, trigger.CLEAR_ENTER)
With that, you'll get your expected 1, 2, 3, 2, 2 reported duration.
Thanks for the response!
Manual says "Set the count to zero (0) to cause the timer to generate trigger events indefinitely.", so the timer still needs a trigger.EVENT_NOTIFY1, to start. If I set "trigger.timer[1].count = 3" I get the exact same results. If an event detector had a latched event I would expect the first model not to ever wait, but instead it waits 1s, just like the second model (with 2 waits).
Yes, the "trigger.CLEAR_ENTER", fixes it, but I want to be able to check for events occurring before entering the wait block (not in this particular example model but in a real model). Now oddly enough a "trigger.CLEAR_ENTER" on the first wait block doesn't fix anything, but one on the second, it does.
It appears to me that the first wait delays the clearance of the event ~0.25 s after it detects it. So unless I add a 0.3 s delay after the first wait, the second wait will be bypassed as it detects the exact same event detected by the first wait.
Are you sure you didn't had some error/warning messages during the update?
I had it but reverting to the previous one fixed it, retrying the update fixed it.
You can try firmware 1.7.2 to see if that one updates without error.
Can you also give an idea how frequent you have these problems, many times a day?
It has been a while (months) since I had a blue screen.
Everytime I used the instrument I had an error in the first hour of use. Both instances were in VDC mode while I was using the touch screen. There might be a pattern here, but I didn't bother to check it out thoroughly. As soon as the second blue screen occurred I packed it up and sent it back for inspection. When a "fatal, unrecoverable error" occurs on something this expensive I send it in. This is my first Keithley purchase and it might be a lemon.
The first blue screen was with whatever firmware it was shipped with in October. The firmware was likely something recent because it was built and calibrated in the same month I purchased it. I updated the firmware to 1.7.2 and I received no error message when I uploaded it on a USB. I used Tera Copy to verify that the transfer to the USB was correct by performing a hash check. Other than the blue screens, this device seems to behave as intended. Blue screens don't give me much confidence in the designer.
The problem is not so much that the update did (kind of) correct a minor bug. The problem is that there are other known bugs that are more critical (e.g. fast draining battery) that seem to be still here.The time to fix the battery problem is running out for many people so I hope that has some priority.
If there is nothing more fixed, this is more like a bad sign of currently not much support going on. This may be due to the special times we have - though fixing software is one of those things that might by done from the home office too. There could be other reasons (e.g. new HW coming, a mayor SW update in the making) for delays.
I am going to ask about it / find out.
Hi E-Design,
I’m considering getting the DMM6500 and would like to know if KickStart software is still free with this model? I cannot find this info on the product page https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500. (https://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-digital-multimeter/dmm6500.)
Thanks,
Gaston
What KickStart license type did you get with the DMM6500? I got a node-locked, and found its also HDD-locked. Happens that I changed my HDD and the "Host ID" of KickStart changed and license doesn't work anymore. Is anyone aware of any workaround?
:--
I will ask about it.
In the meantime, I think there are techniques for "MAC and HOST ID spoofing" that might work. Googles got answers.
:--
I will ask about it.
In the meantime, I think there are techniques for "MAC and HOST ID spoofing" that might work. Googles got answers.
Thanks E-Design, my MAC address didn't change, I just changed my HDD. I tried spoofing the HDD volume serial, but that didn't work at all (Host ID didn't change at all).
The ugly alternative might be to use sandbox or a virtual machine, and use it as trial ad infinitum.
:--
I will ask about it.
In the meantime, I think there are techniques for "MAC and HOST ID spoofing" that might work. Googles got answers.
Thanks E-Design, my MAC address didn't change, I just changed my HDD. I tried spoofing the HDD volume serial, but that didn't work at all (Host ID didn't change at all).
The ugly alternative might be to use sandbox or a virtual machine, and use it as trial ad infinitum.
I have wasted a lot of time trying to get TSP-Link to work. I even bought an additional card for the DAQ6510. [Edit: type KTTI-TSP.]
I could not find any good docs on TSP: some basic illustrations showing daisy-chaining, telling me to use crossover Cat5 cables and set unique node numbers. Well, I've tried all that but must have missed something essential.
There is no marking for "in" or "out" on the TSP connectors. My best guess is that it is connector-xfmr-instrument-xfmr-connector (Edit: i.e. fully symnetrical, electrically), but I'm not sure.
...
This might be done via TSP-Script, and hae a Button on the user-swipe, but if it whre in the firmware ...You can press "No Script" and then select your reset command script.
There's basically no reviews of the DMM6500 on youtube. There's "1" of the similar DAQ6510, but that's basically it.The DAQ6510 is essentially the same machine and the review is excellent. You really don't need much more. If you do watch the SMU and DMM7510 reviews on the same channel as they have similar capabilities.
There's basically no reviews of the DMM6500 on youtube. There's "1" of the similar DAQ6510, but that's basically it.Is there somethings specific you want to see tested? there are also the comments here from users.
You can press "No Script" and then select your reset command script.or take the UI API-Tour (nothing fancy) with the information found on this forum. (There is not very much in the manual)
...
You can press "No Script" and then select your reset command script.or take the UI API-Tour (nothing fancy) with the information found on this forum. (There is not very much in the manual)
...
btw.: "display.setevent(SwipeID, display.EVENT_SHOW, "onSwipeShow()")"
works fine (see Attachement)
No nothing in particular, and I'm sure it has more features than I'd currently need. It's just a shame, no big channel like EEVB-Dave's has done this one. I think he did the 7550?There's basically no reviews of the DMM6500 on youtube. There's "1" of the similar DAQ6510, but that's basically it.Is there somethings specific you want to see tested? there are also the comments here from users.
Edit you will also find some here:
https://www.element14.com/community/roadTestReviews/2910/l/keithley-bench-digital-multimeter-review (https://www.element14.com/community/roadTestReviews/2910/l/keithley-bench-digital-multimeter-review)
No nothing in particular, and I'm sure it has more features than I'd currently need. It's just a shame, no big channel like EEVB-Dave's has done this one. I think he did the 7550?
In general, looking up 6 and 1/2 /6.5 digit DMM on youtube doesn't show up much, in the way of reviews, let alone in-depth ones.
Just found out Kickstart now costs ~$1500AUD ex GST. This is a deal breaker for me. How much did this cost previously?
Just found out Kickstart now costs ~$1500AUD ex GST. This is a deal breaker for me. How much did this cost previously?
You mean software? Afaik, used to be included for free with DMM6500, not sure which edition. Checking on the Internet for a standalone versions gives prices from 215 pounds for base edition to pretty much the price you mentioned.
Just found out Kickstart now costs ~$1500AUD ex GST. This is a deal breaker for me. How much did this cost previously?
eplpwr,
The virtual machine idea sounds like a good workaround. Did you contact somebody about your license that disappeared after redeeming? Its likely a matter of bugs in the website/system and not malice or greed. :-//
I ordered a DMM6500 a few days ago. Anything I need to know ?It's quite easy to get started without reading a manual, especially compared to many other meters. As with any tool of this grade, there are things worth reading the manual for. I can't remember anything major, but a few things which will improve your understanding of what you see like what auto impedance mode means exactly.
I already know that I need to make sure it has the latest firmware, due to the battery drain issue.
I also know the Kickstart offer expired but honestly I don't really care, plus I got a good price on the meter
Is it possible to set or view the testfrequency on DMM6500 when measuring Capacitors? Usually Capacitors are tested with 120Hz by manufacturer for specification purposes. I couldn't find any information about that in the datasheets.
On my Der EE DE-5000 LCR-Meter i can set different testfrequencys. Even the more cheaper Peaktech 3705 has information about this (not unimportant) information in it's datasheet. I noticed, that the DMM6500 uses different testfrequencies and voltages for different capacitors.
As an example: With the DE-5000 i measure a 100µF electrolytic capacitor at 100Hz. It show me 93,25µF. With an Oscilloscope i measure 0,835V and 107Hz.
Measuring the same capacitor with the DMM6500, it show me 100,64µF. But the testvoltage is 0,76V and the testfrequency is 2,56Hz.
I have a some examples in a small table. Up to 10µF the capacitance readings are equal to the DE-5000. But there is a gap on higher capacitor values. I know (thanks to bob91343) that:
"You can't measure capacitance. What you can measure is the effect the capacitance has and then compute
what capacitance would have that effect."
So my question is, how can set the testfrequency or show it on the display. Is there a script for that? I'm using the latest 1.7.3 firmware.
"
If you want to measure it based on/for a Sin wave (at a certain frequency) you need a function generator and use your DMM6500 to measure the AC voltage or current.
You can let the DMM6500 do the math.
To see if there is much hum coming from the meters, one could measure the 50Hz current flow from PE to the low side input of the meter. One may be able to measure it with the DMM6500 itself: AC current mode and current input (hi) to PE.
Haven't used it enough yet. Btw, 5 minutes with dnSpy can make your trial eternal and remove the nag dialog :)
I could check into finding some typical test data if its useful to you?
I cannot say I am disappointed but perhaps I was expecting a little better than this
Does the DMM6500 synchronize to actual AC frequency? (Edit: I would guess it might; time between samples in non-AZ mode corresponds to 50.016 Hz)...
Thats rather good. Your results are not unexpected. On the voltage, you are looking at microvolt level input voltages. Rather hard to measure with good stability without specialized equiptment. IE a nanovoltmeter, or microvoltmeter. On my 34420a you can watch it increment nanovolts as the machine warms up.
I cannot say I am disappointed but perhaps I was expecting a little better than this
also the resistance value never quite settles, the last two digits (only) keeps moving around that average
Thanks Kleinstein. :) having built a successful integrating ADC that you helped me with earlier this year, that all made sense to me!
I agree that it would be ideal to have more choice over the low level workings but I suspect fixing the egregious software bugs would deliver more value at this point in time.
analogRF - I've attached my results of your experiment. By this point, the meter has been switched on for around 20 hours, perhaps you might want to repeat in a few days.
I could check into finding some typical test data if its useful to you?
Yes please, it's useful to me by virtue of educational value, and it's probably useful for others to add to DMM comparison charts. I may do my own INL testing (mostly for the educational value to learn procedure, etc) so the data will give me a broad benchmark for what the output from my testing should look like.
Typical linearity of a 65xx instrument. Of the ones I looked at, this one has a very common shape. The data is represented as error / allowable error.
Thanks for revealing those results KedasProbe... it is a bit of a curse I'd say. A switchable LPF on the input would have gone far here. As it is, I'll probably make a small LPF PCB in a form factor similar to the 4 wire short PCBs.
Edit: I felt it important to clarify to E-Design that there is no ill intent in this post, the design is a work of art in the vast majority of it.
The linearity data look indeed quite good. The file has a few odd labels, saying ppm where the data are µV, but the graphs seem to be OK again ,giving µV.
If the data where recorded in just one run, so all 10 readings for each voltage done in a row, the curve may show additional effects from reference drift and possibly popcorn noise from the DMMs reference. So not all the error shown may be INL.
On the other hand the data are separate for the positive and negative side - so there may be some glitch near zero that is not caught in the test. A problem here is that even a Fluke 5700 calibrator as source may show some errors when switching sign - so it makes sense to separate the curve in two.
Does anyone know what the tiny vertical lines on the chart trace are supposed to indicate?
Hi, I have had my 6500 for nearly 2 years now and have a question please.
It has always been a bit twitchy, blue screens, locking up etc but I persevered as I hoped firmware updates would resolve these issues as many others seemed to be experiencing similar problems.
I upgraded to 1.7.3c a month or so ago and this seemed to solve the prolems. I was really having trouble with the meter just halting readings while in continuous mode |O, meaning I would return to the lab to find no readings had been taken >:D
However, I still have one issue remaining which is a real nuisance. If the meter does lock up (I accept that while writing scripts it may get into a muddle sometimes) and a power off reset is performed it often hangs on the first Keithley logo screen. The only way I have found to escape this is to turn off the meter (the power button still functions) and have to remove the mains power for a while (about 30 minutes usually does it but on rare occasions may need longer) this is a major problem which the latest firmware has not helped with. Any advice or similar experiences would be interesting to hear about.
A quick thank you to E-Design for offering inside support and help, it was because of Brad's input way back that made me choose this meter.
Mike
I recently received a brand new DMM6500. I made a super basic unboxing video with my first impressions on the unit :I'm surprised you're so positive about the fan noise. It's easily the most annoyingly instrument in my lab. It's reasonably loud but above all it whines. I do have a comparatively early model so maybe the fan was upgraded since. Don't get me wrong, it's a great meter. I just feel the fan is a letdown.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzMuEESXJhE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzMuEESXJhE)
It's a great instrument, I love it. I hope this video will help others trying to decide if they want one or not.
Hi E-Design, thanks for responding.Hi, I have had my 6500 for nearly 2 years now and have a question please.
It has always been a bit twitchy, blue screens, locking up etc but I persevered as I hoped firmware updates would resolve these issues as many others seemed to be experiencing similar problems.
I upgraded to 1.7.3c a month or so ago and this seemed to solve the prolems. I was really having trouble with the meter just halting readings while in continuous mode |O, meaning I would return to the lab to find no readings had been taken >:D
However, I still have one issue remaining which is a real nuisance. If the meter does lock up (I accept that while writing scripts it may get into a muddle sometimes) and a power off reset is performed it often hangs on the first Keithley logo screen. The only way I have found to escape this is to turn off the meter (the power button still functions) and have to remove the mains power for a while (about 30 minutes usually does it but on rare occasions may need longer) this is a major problem which the latest firmware has not helped with. Any advice or similar experiences would be interesting to hear about.
A quick thank you to E-Design for offering inside support and help, it was because of Brad's input way back that made me choose this meter.
Mike
Yes, fortunately the recent firmware releases have cleaned up a lot of bugs. However, I am sorry to hear you can still experience a lockup. Needing to leave the meter off for 30 minutes or more to resolve seems odd and makes me think it might be related to the meter being warmed up.
Even though it may be intermittent, Is it the same script running when you experience it?
Do you know the date of manufacture (or purchase) ? There could be other possibilities if it is always a hang at the boot screen.
I recently received a brand new DMM6500. I made a super basic unboxing video with my first impressions on the unit :I'm surprised you're so positive about the fan noise. It's easily the most annoyingly instrument in my lab. It's reasonably loud but above all it whines. I do have a comparatively early model so maybe the fan was upgraded since. Don't get me wrong, it's a great meter. I just feel the fan is a letdown.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzMuEESXJhE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzMuEESXJhE)
It's a great instrument, I love it. I hope this video will help others trying to decide if they want one or not.
I bought mine very recently and while the fan's kinda loud the most annoying thing is the transformer noise, especially when it's off. Have to power off the entire strip so it doesn't annoy me when not in use.Mine has the same issue. Transformer noise can be heard from across the room.
They cheaped out on that important part, production may have already changed that test to '= True' or increased the tol. to high because they had to much 'problems'.I bought mine very recently and while the fan's kinda loud the most annoying thing is the transformer noise, especially when it's off. Have to power off the entire strip so it doesn't annoy me when not in use.Mine has the same issue. Transformer noise can be heard from across the room.
Hi E-Design, thanks for responding.Hi, I have had my 6500 for nearly 2 years now and have a question please.
It has always been a bit twitchy, blue screens, locking up etc but I persevered as I hoped firmware updates would resolve these issues as many others seemed to be experiencing similar problems.
I upgraded to 1.7.3c a month or so ago and this seemed to solve the prolems. I was really having trouble with the meter just halting readings while in continuous mode |O, meaning I would return to the lab to find no readings had been taken >:D
However, I still have one issue remaining which is a real nuisance. If the meter does lock up (I accept that while writing scripts it may get into a muddle sometimes) and a power off reset is performed it often hangs on the first Keithley logo screen. The only way I have found to escape this is to turn off the meter (the power button still functions) and have to remove the mains power for a while (about 30 minutes usually does it but on rare occasions may need longer) this is a major problem which the latest firmware has not helped with. Any advice or similar experiences would be interesting to hear about.
A quick thank you to E-Design for offering inside support and help, it was because of Brad's input way back that made me choose this meter.
Mike
Yes, fortunately the recent firmware releases have cleaned up a lot of bugs. However, I am sorry to hear you can still experience a lockup. Needing to leave the meter off for 30 minutes or more to resolve seems odd and makes me think it might be related to the meter being warmed up.
Even though it may be intermittent, Is it the same script running when you experience it?
Do you know the date of manufacture (or purchase) ? There could be other possibilities if it is always a hang at the boot screen.
I bought it from Farnell UK in early April 2019 S.No 04415206
There is no consistency regarding when it is going to freeze, or for what reason. All I can say is that, apart from script lockups, it has the habit of occasionally just stopping the continuous measurement usually sometime during the first 30 minutes after power on in the morning, sometimes different button presses and random combinations will allow it to start but not able to discern any definite procedure. This is not the serious problem, the main gripe is when a power off reset is made it often hangs on the opening Keithley screen before even the relay clicks. I am a repair tech so am more than happy to investigate if you can offer any information. Leaving it in the off condition but with power applied doesn't work, must be unplugged from the power. One possible clue is that usually it has just crashed when I perform the reset, if I turn it off then on from working state I don't seem to have the boot up problem :-//
Thanks for any help you can offer. Mike
They cheaped out on that important part, production may have already changed that test to '= True' or increased the tol. to high because they had to much 'problems'.I bought mine very recently and while the fan's kinda loud the most annoying thing is the transformer noise, especially when it's off. Have to power off the entire strip so it doesn't annoy me when not in use.Mine has the same issue. Transformer noise can be heard from across the room.
I would have gladly paid 10Euro more for one without so much hum, I also kill the power strip if not in use.
Just so you know an active noise canceling headset is also fixing it (I tested it)
But I think al these big vibrations in the unit can't be that good on the long term.
Maybe next time they should provide a DC power input at the back so you can do it right yourself. (It's Cheaper!!)
Thanks for the feedback. We are aware that some users consider the transformer and fans loud. BUT If you have big vibrations, you should consider that you have a faulty unit and send it in for service. I am fairly certain no units ship with big vibrations or excessive audible noise (it is checked). Some people are more sensitive to it than others. :-//Keithley 2000 and 34401A transformers are near perfectly silent. The DMM6500 can be heard from across the room. At what point noise becomes an issue can be personal but a large difference can objectively be established.
The DC power input at the back (mechanical switch) was investigated and was not lower cost than the soft power. That being said, if there is another generation meter -- it likely won't be at this price point and thus it will probably have the power input filter with switch like most other products. Those are much nicer indeed.
Thanks for the feedback. We are aware that some users consider the transformer and fans loud. BUT If you have big vibrations, you should consider that you have a faulty unit and send it in for service. I am fairly certain no units ship with big vibrations or excessive audible noise (it is checked). Some people are more sensitive to it than others. :-//Keithley 2000 and 34401A transformers are near perfectly silent. The DMM6500 can be heard from across the room. At what point noise becomes an issue can be personal but a large difference can objectively be established.
The DC power input at the back (mechanical switch) was investigated and was not lower cost than the soft power. That being said, if there is another generation meter -- it likely won't be at this price point and thus it will probably have the power input filter with switch like most other products. Those are much nicer indeed.
I bought mine very recently ....
I bought mine very recently ....
Do you know when it was assembled/manufactured?
Even though you purchased it recently, maybe it was from an old production run. Admittedly it's unlikely that is the case, but you never know.
So the unit was serviced under the warranty and even recalibrated, the turnaround was around 10 days. The transformer is dead silent now.How long ago did you get it serviced under the warranty?
Is there anything else on that flash drive? One of our co-ops remembered seeing a bug during development where the DMM would sometimes crash after having the flash drive inserted for some time. He believed it was related to what files were on the drive but doesn't know what file would've caused it since he erased the drive. We haven't seen anything like that since then, and there's not an obvious reason why any process that reads the flash drive would cause a crash, but it's something to go on. If there are other files on it, could you PM me a list of the file names and extensions (NOT the contents)?Not much more info, I was on the mains screens, it happened on the statistic (twice) and on the settings screen.I have been playing some more with the meter and got a couple of blue-screen while doing screen dumps:As in you saw blue screens while taking a screenshot? Do you have any other info on how you got them?
At least you got the Program Counter value, maybe something for the softies to chew on.Yes... even if I had to use my phone for that...
A crash before the screen protector has been taken offYou are right indeed :-[
So the unit was serviced under the warranty and even recalibrated, the turnaround was around 10 days. The transformer is dead silent now.How long ago did you get it serviced under the warranty?
Tried a bit more and the problem is persistent, actually quite repeatable... I had 8 crashes within 5 minutes when trying to do screen dumps. Five times the shown error code was "PC=002F6B2C" and three times it was "PC=00080CFC =3". Tried different USB thumb drives.
But the remarkable thing is: I also get these crashes without any USB drive in the slot at all! Every time I press HOME + ENTER within a few seconds apart, a crash appears at the second time. So that does not sound like a specific incompatibility with the thumb drives I used, or with the files on it.
Can some other DMM6500 user try the same thing? Power up the instrument without USB drive inserted, wait 10 seconds, and then twice make a screen dump? Do you get crashes too? And which FW are you running?
Thanks!
Tried a bit more and the problem is persistent, actually quite repeatable... I had 8 crashes within 5 minutes when trying to do screen dumps. Five times the shown error code was "PC=002F6B2C" and three times it was "PC=00080CFC =3". Tried different USB thumb drives.
But the remarkable thing is: I also get these crashes without any USB drive in the slot at all! Every time I press HOME + ENTER within a few seconds apart, a crash appears at the second time. So that does not sound like a specific incompatibility with the thumb drives I used, or with the files on it.
Can some other DMM6500 user try the same thing? Power up the instrument without USB drive inserted, wait 10 seconds, and then twice make a screen dump? Do you get crashes too? And which FW are you running?
Thanks!
and no transformer annoyance or excessive fan noise either. Transformer is really silent and fan is normal, no louder than my agilent multimeter
why does it only affect some instruments but not all?
yes I did many many attempts and it gives that 2224 error every time
and if there is a USB stick in it, it saves screendump. and USB stick is full of other stuff...
and no transformer annoyance or excessive fan noise either. Transformer is really silent and fan is normal, no louder than my agilent multimeter
Regarding the fan noise: Did someone already a DIY improvement? I feel a bit disappointed with the noise level. For my device I measure 52 dBA close to the fan and 40 dBA appox. 0.5 m away. Blocking only the inlet area increases the temperature inside the device and some drift in the measurements becomes visible.
Thank you!
Simon
I did some tests with a funnel over the inlet openings (left side with the fan). This helps to make the noise more pleasant for me, but not really silent. The unpleasant spikes at e.g. approx. 337 Hz disapper. Temperature wise it is not a perfect solution (plus 2 or 3 K) and need some improvements. I did not want to open the case in the first years, so some external sound blocking measures are welcome.
I did some tests with a funnel over the inlet openings (left side with the fan). This helps to make the noise more pleasant for me, but not really silent. The unpleasant spikes at e.g. approx. 337 Hz disapper. Temperature wise it is not a perfect solution (plus 2 or 3 K) and need some improvements. I did not want to open the case in the first years, so some external sound blocking measures are welcome.
What equipment are you using to do these fancy noise graphs ? Are they calibrated ? Super nice !
is there any chance that one day FFT and THD will be added to the firmware?
all the hardware is there, it's just a matter of programming
is there any chance that one day FFT and THD will be added to the firmware?
all the hardware is there, it's just a matter of programming
Why YES there is a possibility.
IIRC, there are apps created already that do these features.. (I think)
is there any chance that one day FFT and THD will be added to the firmware?
all the hardware is there, it's just a matter of programming
Why YES there is a possibility.
IIRC, there are apps created already that do these features.. (I think)
well, with 1MS/sec speed, I think there are many potential applications (at least in power and audio electronics) for having spectrum analysis (FFT) and THD measurement (and possibly even other freq domain measurements).
So, is it possible that Keithley will consider adding those features in the future?
since I am new to this (just got mine last week), I have not found any apps doing these stuff yet. Can somebody confirm if such apps exist and where they can be found?
is there any chance that one day FFT and THD will be added to the firmware?
all the hardware is there, it's just a matter of programming
Why YES there is a possibility.
IIRC, there are apps created already that do these features.. (I think)
well, with 1MS/sec speed, I think there are many potential applications (at least in power and audio electronics) for having spectrum analysis (FFT) and THD measurement (and possibly even other freq domain measurements).
So, is it possible that Keithley will consider adding those features in the future?
since I am new to this (just got mine last week), I have not found any apps doing these stuff yet. Can somebody confirm if such apps exist and where they can be found?
Well, if they were released, I think they would be here
https://www.tek.com/keithley/tsp-applications-for-touch-test-invent-models (https://www.tek.com/keithley/tsp-applications-for-touch-test-invent-models)
But alas, I dont see them. I do recall them being worked on so I will have to check on that when I return to the office.
We miss having Keithley support staff in this product thread like Siglent or R&S are doing in the other threads about their products.
There is a lot of relevant input here from their customers that could be useful. Many ideas going to waste because noone is looking at them
Personally I really wish a mini oscilloscope-like interface in the Digi modes with the high sample rate. I want to see things like V/div and ms/div, not sample counts for instance
I think you forgot to mention the limitation that the meter will not work within specifications when you combine Voltage and Current. (there can be a big error depending on your settings)
I put together a precision PWM DAC and automated a test with 0.5V steps from -9.5V to +9.5V.
.... Now, I am trying too figure out if this is normal or if my screen is defective. Has anybody here experienced similar issues with the DMM6500? I tried to compare the screen quality of my unit to several youtube videos using roughly the same viewing conditions, but could not see this effect there.
Power supply 100 V, 120 V, 220 V, and 240 V (±10%)
A problem with transformers switched between 230V and 115 V is that the US also has 60 Hz and Europe 50 Hz. If they ignore the 50Hz the transformer would be driven to higher magnetization and has quite a bit of no load current. In the US they may have got transformers for 230 V 60 Hz.Risking repeating myself, but it seems multiple generations of earlier devices were able to deal with different voltages and frequencies no issue. If the screen is that much more power hungry, maybe a hybrid with a transformer for the reference and sensitive parts and a switching module for the power hungry part could be a solution. Switchers can deal with different inputs without issue or much compromise.
The supplies to the analog and digital board need good isolation from each other - a single transformer would need to be very special. With 2 transformers only the one for the analog supply needs to be a little special (with shield, but still a standard bobin).
It is a little odd they need so much power - here the large scree probably needs quite some power.
The problem can be running such a DMM in a hot rack - there you may need a fan already with a relatively low power level.
A problem with transformers switched between 230V and 115 V is that the US also has 60 Hz and Europe 50 Hz. If they ignore the 50Hz the transformer would be driven to higher magnetization and has quite a bit of no load current. In the US they may have got transformers for 230 V 60 Hz.Risking repeating myself, but it seems multiple generations of earlier devices were able to deal with different voltages and frequencies no issue. If the screen is that much more power hungry, maybe a hybrid with a transformer for the reference and sensitive parts and a switching module for the power hungry part could be a solution. Switchers can deal with different inputs without issue or much compromise.
The supplies to the analog and digital board need good isolation from each other - a single transformer would need to be very special. With 2 transformers only the one for the analog supply needs to be a little special (with shield, but still a standard bobin).
It is a little odd they need so much power - here the large scree probably needs quite some power.
The problem can be running such a DMM in a hot rack - there you may need a fan already with a relatively low power level.
Mind you, I understand that I don't know much about the compromises made so maybe there are very good reasons for this approach. It's just such a shame to have those niggles which impact liveability in an otherwise superb machine.
A problem with transformers switched between 230V and 115 V is that the US also has 60 Hz and Europe 50 Hz. If they ignore the 50Hz the transformer would be driven to higher magnetization and has quite a bit of no load current. In the US they may have got transformers for 230 V 60 Hz.Risking repeating myself, but it seems multiple generations of earlier devices were able to deal with different voltages and frequencies no issue. If the screen is that much more power hungry, maybe a hybrid with a transformer for the reference and sensitive parts and a switching module for the power hungry part could be a solution. Switchers can deal with different inputs without issue or much compromise.
The supplies to the analog and digital board need good isolation from each other - a single transformer would need to be very special. With 2 transformers only the one for the analog supply needs to be a little special (with shield, but still a standard bobin).
It is a little odd they need so much power - here the large scree probably needs quite some power.
The problem can be running such a DMM in a hot rack - there you may need a fan already with a relatively low power level.
Mind you, I understand that I don't know much about the compromises made so maybe there are very good reasons for this approach. It's just such a shame to have those niggles which impact liveability in an otherwise superb machine.
Yep, efficient multi-rail switchmode psu's are cheap and plentiful these days, everything digital in the dmm can be run straight from it or thru a LDO if needed.
The analog section (and adc) need to be isolated (5KV?) that could be efficiently done with a (small) multi-tap high frequency transformer powered from the smpsu and traditional LDO as post regulators.
Can't see this being any more costly than the transformer setup in the dmm6500.
@Kleinstein, yes I know all about 19 inch racks, stacking equipment and managing btu's, I've looked
at the dmm6500 product page and there isn't even a rackmount available.
Mounting two side by side wouldn't work anyway because it would block the fan openings on the side.
So maximum one (22 Watt) dmm per two rack heights, nothing a well vented rack couldn't handle.
Overall it seems it could have been designed/engineered a little bit better.
Ps, no hard feelings E-design, we are being very picky.
....
@Kleinstein, yes I know all about 19 inch racks, stacking equipment and managing btu's, I've looked
at the dmm6500 product page and there isn't even a rackmount available.
...
....
@Kleinstein, yes I know all about 19 inch racks, stacking equipment and managing btu's, I've looked
at the dmm6500 product page and there isn't even a rackmount available.
...
Just FYI for anybody interested. part#s 4288-1 for single and 4288-2 for double are the rack mount kits for Model 65xx.
https://www.tek.com/search?keywords=4288-1 (https://www.tek.com/search?keywords=4288-1)
Keithley / Tektronix / Kickstart , a heads-up
Your “permanent” Kickstart License that came with your DMM6500 or other Keithley or Tektronix test gear as a promotion, was false advertising, and a bait and switch scheme to get you to pay for it later.
There is more info in this long thread about it, the promotion ended now but if you ordered it on time you can claim the free license that you can move around.How do you claim your right to the software ?
Ask the seller first, if they can't figure it out ask a Customer Sales Representative of your country (@tektronix.com), they will ask for serial number etc.QuoteThere is more info in this long thread about it, the promotion ended now but if you ordered it on time you can claim the free license that you can move around.How do you claim your right to the software ?
DMM6500 New Firmware v1.7.5 Release - 04/Jan/2021:fixes for scan cards...
https://download.tek.com/software/supporting_files/DMM6500-FRP-v1_7_5_Dec_2020_RNs_DMM6500-FRP-V1.7.5.pdf
The "Branch to Block" setting on various branch blocks on the Trigger Flow screen on the front panel now allows a minimum value of 0.
KedasProbe, Thanks for the information, I went to the page you posted, and I show no licenses.It will not add itself there, you will get some instructions by email to add it there with given codes.
This information just made the the whole thing worst. First and foremost, I did not move the software, that was my grounds for asking for a new KEY, second the "Product Line Manager for Kickstart software" was involved, and they did not mention this as a possible solution, or at all. So if it is a possibility, and they should know that it is, they are knowingly trying to get me to pay for the license I already have.
Thank you for your order number ******* (Purchase Order:DMM6500: Free KickStart) of 1 new software licenses for your Tektronix products. Included in this email are instructions on how to obtain those license keys.
Here is a list of the products purchased on this order:
1 - KICKSTARTFL-BASE License; KickStartFL-BASE for all base apps of KickStart 2.0; Floating
To manage the Check In and Check Out process, we have developed TekAMS, a free, web-based application available using your tek.com account. Access TekAMS at the following URL:
http://www.tek.com/products/product-license (http://www.tek.com/products/product-license)
After you login, enter the Software License application by clicking on the "Software License" link at the top of the page, then click on the "Redeem a Claim Check" link on the page and enter your personalized code:
****** (case-sensitive)
This claim check is only good for 1 year and is specific to a MyTek account with the user name of *****@telenet.be. Please redeem your claim check now.
After you have redeemed your claim check, you will have full access to check out and check in your floating licenses using this TekAMS application.
http://www.tek.com/products/product-license (http://www.tek.com/products/product-license)
Thanks for buying Tektronix!
When I go to the License Manager Home page, In big bold letters it has "No Active Customer Relationship", sound about right :palm:LOL they do keep the website up to date ;)
It never did get resolved, I just put on my big boy pants and did everything in python/scpi.I have had the thought but it comes down to where to spend my time. Anyhing you would like to share as a starting point ?
.......(Other than worrying about Tek being dicks about this means they will be about other stuff?)
@Pinörkel Same here with the screen. (Didn't notice, because I have it stacked to about eye level on my bench).Hmm, that does not sound promising. I just wrote my dealer that I accept his offer to exchange the unit because I got advice in the official support forum from a Keithley employee that, based on my photos, an exchange is likely to bring an improvement. Maybe it's a particularly bad batch? I cannot imagine that this is normal on a screen of a unit of this price point. Every cheap (non-oled) smartphone touch-screen I have seen until now, even really old resistive ones, performs way better. How could such a screen pass quality control in the design process of a device whose main input and output device is the touchscreen?
I would say viewing angle left to right on center high or slightly above is very good.
Being directly in front of the device and looking from below is also very good.
Screen quality (doubling/ghosting) is getting worse when looking from an angle from below.
Looking at the screen from above is worst. I start to notice it getting worse from 10 deg, at 45 deg straight it really bad.
Looking from top and the side seems to be better again.
Sorry no pictures due to poor lighting in that corner of my desk :D
But I don't think mine is different to your pictures.
No questions asked. The return documentation said something like "31dB when off, 34dB when on, spec is 40dB so it's ok" but now it doesn't hum anymore so I guess they fixed it?3dB difference between on and standby and max 40dB spec that could be useful.
Is there a KICKSTARTFL-BASE lifetime License included from welectron?On mine there wasn't any Kickstart license included. Anyways, didn't this whole free Kickstart license promotion of Keithley end several years ago?
Yup. It is going overseas to be dismantled.
I want to use the DC ratio function to measure the current amplification (at 180 μA) and measure Vbe using a scope to be able to match pnp transistors on those parameters using the posted test circuit. (The transistors will be used in a current mirror configuration.)It got me thinking, maybe putting a voltage follower on the transistor base to lessen the "load" on it would be better?
However my current measurement resistor for the base current is 1M. The question is how high is the input impedance of the sense terminals when doing a measurement on the 10V range?
I know the sense measurement range is fixed at 10V, so the 1M resistor is intended for keeping the resolution high.
Swapping sense en input (and selecting a lower range), would lead to the issue of not be able to measure the collector current sense voltage to fine tune that current by changing VCC.
Only downside is the already known transformer hum.
My unit is about as loud as my fridge (with the compressor running.) which might not be horrible, but it still feels excessive.
The sense inputs should be high impedance, similar to the normal voltage input in high impedance mode (so > 10 G) range. There may be however slightly higher bias current and maybe slightly higher noise from the switching and protection part that is often lower grade than with the main input. So there is no real need for an extra buffer.Because the tests will be (semi) automated, and I only have one scpi enabled dmm, there's also the issue of the scope measuring Vbe. I think its impedance is about 10M with 10x attenuation. That measurement might require a buffer after all.
Mentioned it before: all my devices (dmm6500 as well) are switched using 2 powers trips. Bolted down at each side (left, right) of the bench. No hum and very practical.
Only downside is the already known transformer hum.
My unit is about as loud as my fridge (with the compressor running.) which might not be horrible, but it still feels excessive.
I also got my DMM6500 from welectron and it was quite loud. After some investigation, the unit was set to 220V. After I switched it to 240V, the hum is almost inaudible. Hope that helps.
I want to use the DC ratio function to measure the current amplification (at 180 μA) and measure Vbe using a scope to be able to match pnp transistors on those parameters using the posted test circuit. (The transistors will be used in a current mirror configuration.)When calculating values in the test circuit, I didn't take into account that the sense inputs are referenced to negative input and cannot exceed 10V to that point. (I think the manual mentions 12V).
Only downside is the already known transformer hum.
My unit is about as loud as my fridge (with the compressor running.) which might not be horrible, but it still feels excessive.
I also got my DMM6500 from welectron and it was quite loud. After some investigation, the unit was set to 220V. After I switched it to 240V, the hum is almost inaudible. Hope that helps.
Not the most interesting circuit in the world, but now it should be correct :-+. I added a voltage follower, just so scope measurement cannot interfere with the low base current.The circuit does not work this way, with the FB from the collector to the inverting input. Taking the signal from the collector inverts the signal - so wrong polarity. In addition the collector usually adds gain so just swaping the OP inputs may still not work but oscillate.
The idea is get to a precise collector current, fine tuned by VCC using a programmable PSU based on the dmm's secondary measurement.
Then the dmm's DC ratio measurement needs to be scaled to get the current amplification.
Also Vbe will then be measured. I will do that for 60 x 2N3904's and run them through a matching script, which I hope will deliver 2 x matched pairs for the 4 transitor current mirror.
Thanks for mentioning the opamp input issue. Should have seen that one myself..Not the most interesting circuit in the world, but now it should be correct :-+. I added a voltage follower, just so scope measurement cannot interfere with the low base current.The circuit does not work this way, with the FB from the collector to the inverting input. Taking the signal from the collector inverts the signal - so wrong polarity. In addition the collector usually adds gain so just swaping the OP inputs may still not work but oscillate.
The idea is get to a precise collector current, fine tuned by VCC using a programmable PSU based on the dmm's secondary measurement.
Then the dmm's DC ratio measurement needs to be scaled to get the current amplification.
Also Vbe will then be measured. I will do that for 60 x 2N3904's and run them through a matching script, which I hope will deliver 2 x matched pairs for the 4 transitor current mirror.
I would consider a slightly simpler circuit: just an emitter follower with a rather large resistor at the base. for a fixed voltage before the resistor one would than measure the voltage at the base an emitter. The collector current would not be absolute constant, but one could still measure the base and emitter current from the voltage drops. Matching pairs would also have a current very close.
Ideally the DMM6500 could also measuren the votlage from one sense input to com. Not sure if this is supported by the software. The hardware should allow this and it would be a nice feature, not just for this measurement.
As a follow-up, the Keithley DMM6500 was found to have a defective board and it was replaced under warranty. It took a bit of whining on my end to convince them that the instrument was faulty, but the factory fixed it. They even calibrated the unit free of charge, so the instrument is good for another year. This was not a firmware issue like the technical support thought it to be.
The capacitor just from the base to ground does not help that much, the more effective point is for the collector and especially the collector to base version.My wrong, I've misread your advise as put a capacitor at the base, not specifically between collector and base. (Will think about the difference.)
The sense inputs are measured not all the time, but the are switched to the main amplifier from time to time. This switching can cause current spikes at the inputs and these may interfere with the circuit.Probably the remaining issue.
I also got my DMM6500 from welectron and it was quite loud. After some investigation, the unit was set to 220V. After I switched it to 240V, the hum is almost inaudible. Hope that helps.Europe does have 230V and we have 220V and 240V to choose from, I left it on 220V but maybe we should set it to 240V?
I also got my DMM6500 from welectron and it was quite loud. After some investigation, the unit was set to 220V. After I switched it to 240V, the hum is almost inaudible. Hope that helps.Europe does have 230V and we have 220V and 240V to choose from, I left it on 220V but maybe we should set it to 240V?
If it reduces the HUM and works equally as well.... (haven't tested it)
That's something for Keithley to answer if 240V is also ok or even preferred on an 230V net?
Edit: I changed it to 240V since I think we are always above the allowed bottom limit of 240V net
It gives the impression that there is less hum, I could only measure less 400Hz hum, 100Hz and 200Hz are the same.
As a follow-up, the Keithley DMM6500 was found to have a defective board and it was replaced under warranty. It took a bit of whining on my end to convince them that the instrument was faulty, but the factory fixed it. They even calibrated the unit free of charge, so the instrument is good for another year. This was not a firmware issue like the technical support thought it to be.
What bad luck. I feel like I jinxed something yesterday because the same day I posted this message the instrument failed again. :palm:
New symptoms: :-BROKE
- DCI is displaying a constant overcurrent ( > 3 A).
- ACI initially starts at high amps and quickly decays to a noisy uA reading.
I tried updating the firmware (1.7.3 -> 1.7.5), checking the fuses through the APP, reinitializing it, switching to rear mode. I am going to ask for a complete replacement of this instrument and then possibly sell it.
The Keithley DMM6500 is absolute garbage. The instrument has failed on me twice in 6 months, even after a factory repair. For the price, buy something less complicated and more reliable. I bought the instrument believing that the name had the same quality as the older Keithley models like the 200X, 648X, or the 23X. It's a great paperweight.
Yes I noticed Digitizer in the csv but I am not using the digitizer, this just appears at random. While it is in this fault condition the meter sort of locks up, some hard buttons do nothing, some perform the wrong function, the screen is non responsive. If I prod butons at random, I have not been able to repeat a sequence that helps, it will suddenly wake up and carry on as if nothing happened but leaves a gap in the readings. It used to stop until I intervened but now if I leave it alone it does, eventually, restart by itself, this can be seen on the home screen image which shows several hours of data. It is a shame because when it works correctly this meter is a superb piece of equipment. When I initially bought it other people were reporting blue screens, freezing etc so I assumed it was a firmware problem and Keithley would sort it out, unfortunately I am now suspecting a possible hardware issue :palm:
Let's see if E Design can throw any light on it :-+
Thank you for your input, regards Mike
Sorry E Design I didn't include the L-N impedances in question 2 without which the L-PE wont mean as much. The L-N impedance at the wall outlet is 0.66Ω, at the IEC connector to the DMM6500 it is 0.95Ω
Regards Mike
This is done via a Visa callback and requires no polling.
<Execute Statement="Dmm.MapEventToOperationRegister(TEventCode.InfoMessage4, TRegisterBit.B1)"/>
<Execute Statement="Dmm.OperationRegisterCascadeMask:= TRegisterBits.B1"/>
<Execute Statement="Dmm.ServiceRequestMask:= TDmmSTBFlag.OSB"/>
<Variable Identifier="OSBState" Type="TRegisterState" Init="Dmm.StatusState[TDmmSTB.OSB]"/>
Sending: :STATUS:OPERATION:MAP 1, 2737
Sending: :STATUS:OPERATION:ENABLE 2
Sending: *SRE 128
ReadSTB: 0
Sending: :STATUS:OPERATION?
Received: 0
RetValue := viInstallHandler(FVisaResource.FSession, VI_EVENT_SERVICE_REQ, VisaEventHandler, Self);
RetValue := viEnableEvent(FVisaResource.FSession, VI_EVENT_SERVICE_REQ, VI_HNDLR, 0);
<Variable Identifier="ServiceRequestEvent" Type="TVisaEvent" Init="Dmm.VisaResource.ServiceRequestEvent"/>
<Execute Statement="ServiceRequestEvent.Enabled:= True"/>
<RepeatUntilLoop Expression="Dmm.OperationChanged(TRegisterBit.B1, NewMeasurementState)">
<RepeatUntilLoop Expression="Dmm.StatusChanged(TDmmSTB.OSB, OSBState)">
<Suspend>
<Resume.EventHandle Handle="ServiceRequestEvent.Handle"/>
<Resume.BreakRequest IssueExit="True"/>
</Suspend>
</RepeatUntilLoop>
</RepeatUntilLoop>
ReadSTB: 192
Sending: :STATUS:OPERATION?
Received: 2
Mine doesn't seem to be harder than usual, the meter doesn't slide. I can also see the board flexing a few mm.Thank you for checking the PCB flex on your device. I just measured the actuation force on my button and it is approximately 800g. That is about 50% more than the force for most of the push buttons on my vintage devices, but none of the latter have that scratchy feel while pushing the button.
Blue 63,8 mΩ ± 200 μΩ
Green 64,4 mΩ ± 200 μΩ
Black 32,5 mΩ ± 200 μΩ
White 32,1 mΩ ± 200 μΩ
10 mA 5,0710 V
8,2 mA 4,1582 V
6,8 mA 3,4483 V
5,6 mA 2,8398 V
4,7 mA 2,3834 V
3,9 mA 1,9777 V
3,3 mA 1,6734 V
2,7 mA 1,3692 V
2,2 mA 1,1156 V
1,8 mA 912,8 mV
1,5 mA 760,7 mV
1,2 mA 608,5 mV
1 mA 507,1 mV
820 μA 415,8 mV
680 μA 344,8 mV
560 μA 284,0 mV
470 μA 238,3 mV
390 μA 197,8 mV
330 μA 167,3 mV
270 μA 136,9 mV
220 μA 111,6 mV
180 μA 91,3 mV
150 μA 76,1 mV
120 μA 60,9 mV
100 μA 50,7 mV
10 mA: 39.10, 5.07171, 0.000209
8,2 mA: 30.85, 4.15821, 0.000126
6,8 mA: 32.98, 3.44836, 0.000171
5,6 mA: 31.38, 2.83963, 0.0000477
4,7 mA: 31.28, 2.38344, 0.0000456
3,9 mA: 31.28, 1.97755, 0.0000568
3,3 mA: 31.13, 1.67344, 0.0000620
2,7 mA: 31.22, 1.36911, 0.000119
2,2 mA: 30.89, 1.11570, 0.0000319
1,8 mA: 31.12, 0.912941, 0.0000985
1,5 mA: 30.85, 0.760737, 0.000107
1,2 mA: 30.91, 0.608708, 0.0000843
1 mA: 30.89, 0.507387, 0.0000672
820 μA: 30.93, 0.415905, 0.0000390
680 μA: 31.66, 0.344852, 0.0000158
560 μA: 30.87, 0.284076, 0.0000963
470 μA: 30.89, 0.238457, 0.0000269
390 μA: 30.85, 0.197997, 0.0000311
330 μA: 30.93, 0.167316, 0.0000212
270 μA: 30.89, 0.136969, 0.0000465
220 μA: 31.37, 0.111924, 0.0000481
180 μA: 31.00, 0.0913745, 0.0000170
150 μA: 30.82, 0.0761302, 0.0000215
120 μA: 31.04, 0.0607542, 0.0000356
100 μA: 30.86, 0.0507703, 0.0000393
The more straight forward way would be using a scanner card that is available for the 6500.The scanner card I find too expensive, as well as the digital io card, which both would be very nice to use for experiments though.
Maybe capacitative coupling bewteen the powerlines plays a role?What does the oscilloscope show connected to this line?
I think (but am not sure) that you can close/open arbitrary relays on a scanner card if they don't have a measurement function assigned. Would mean that a DIY scanned card can act as a LAN controller for some relays if you wanted (wired to not connect to the measurement terminals). Can probably be tested using the virtual scanner you can activate for script testing.According to the manual I think you're right. That's something to keep in mind. :-+
I think (but am not sure) that you can close/open arbitrary relays on a scanner card if they don't have a measurement function assigned. Would mean that a DIY scanned card can act as a LAN controller for some relays if you wanted (wired to not connect to the measurement terminals). Can probably be tested using the virtual scanner you can activate for script testing.
Key passages in my post were "DIY scanned card" (*scanner) and "(wired to not connect to the measurement terminals)" - the Keithley one will have the issue you describe, but a DIY one can be designed to have a few isolated relays with no connection to the measurement bus. You get up to 20 channels, so you can have a fair bit of flexibility - I'm planning on a reference temp sensor channel plus a few thermo-couple, relay, SSR, current sense and isolated channels when I get around to building mine.I think (but am not sure) that you can close/open arbitrary relays on a scanner card if they don't have a measurement function assigned. Would mean that a DIY scanned card can act as a LAN controller for some relays if you wanted (wired to not connect to the measurement terminals). Can probably be tested using the virtual scanner you can activate for script testing.
Eh, no.
The relays connect input terminals to the measurement bus.
Activating multiple relays can create a dangerous situation where voltage on one input is routed out of another.
You seem to think the dmm firmware will allow this to happen. Be prepared for a dissappointment.I said "I am not sure" as this is certainly something I'd want to at least try using the virtual card option before concluding that is is possible, regardless of the fact that the manual says that it will work. Did you try with your scanner card on a DMM6500? Or an older card compatible instrument?
I accidentally discovered that my new DMM6500 has an 11A Bussmann fuse inside, and not 3.5A like everyone else. Absolutely new meter, production date: January 2021. Is this normal or a manufacturing error and should be replaced urgently with 3.5A?
There is also a wire. connecting the K7 optorelay to U32 chip under shield. The wire is installed very neatly (at the factory?) By the way, the chip (U32) to which the wire goes is not installed at all on earlier boards (according to the photo from the forum). Do I have some kind of new revision with improvements?
The device was produced in January 2021, purchased from an authorized dealer as completely new. I was the first to open the box (the box was sealed with Keithley's branded tape).
Not refurbished.
You do not have a refurbished instrument.What does this hardware revision entail? And does this mean recertifying the model? I've always wondered about that.
These are both perfectly normal and are product improvements. However, it is not a new hardware revision (which we are working on).
Your internal 11A fuse is a safety item only and is present in case of some accidental high voltage connection to amps or other catastrophic internal event. The panel 3A fuses are for your convenience if you accidentally blow it during normal use, you can easily access it and the fuses are low cost. You shouldn't ever need (hopefully) to get to the internal 11A.
Hope this helps clear up your concerns.
The 3A fuse is inside the banana jack on the front & rear panel.
The 10A banana jack is on the rear panel - you already found the fuse for that.
I accidentally discovered that my new DMM6500 has an 11A Bussmann fuse inside, and not 3.5A like everyone else. Absolutely new meter, production date: January 2021. Is this normal or a manufacturing error and should be replaced urgently with 3.5A?If you get the chance, could you check what U32 is? (I assume you've put it back together though, I am not asking you to open everything again!). Also would you be able to check the burden voltage of the 3A range at say 1A (source 1A from a PSU, measure voltage across the input terminals of the DMM). Would be interesting to compare with a 3.5A fused instrument.
There is also a wire. connecting the K7 optorelay to U32 chip under shield. The wire is installed very neatly (at the factory?) By the way, the chip (U32) to which the wire goes is not installed at all on earlier boards (according to the photo from the forum). Do I have some kind of new revision with improvements?
The 3 A range would not see much protection from the diode bridge. The shunt for the 3 A range would be somerhing like 20 or 50 mOhms, so even with 30 A this would be only some 600-1500 mV. The Diode brigde is more to protect the smaller ranges. The critical would be the next with something like an 1 Ohms shunt. This may get quite hot with a higher current before tripping the fuse.1A/3A shunt is 100milliohms, so would hit 2 diode drops at ~14A, still quite a bit of power (~20W), but this is all assuming that the 3A fuse is arcing over, so you'd assume the 3.5/11A HRC one would go open in short order.
If you get the chance, could you check what U32 is? (I assume you've put it back together though, I am not asking you to open everything again!). Also would you be able to check the burden voltage of the 3A range at say 1A (source 1A from a PSU, measure voltage across the input terminals of the DMM). Would be interesting to compare with a 3.5A fused instrument.
Who makes those DG444 analog switches? I don't recognise the logo.
Did you ever do the offset test with the 3A input on your "improved" unit?
How is your build of the mux card coming along?I have all the parts for 2 cards, assembly is on the to do list. :)
One interesting thing I have learnt from your script is that on the top info line the name of the script is shown, on the
scripts I have written this shows NO SCRIPT even thouigh it is running my script, I will investigate this later to find the reason.
I tried by using the trigger status but that's doesn't seem to work as expected.
You could maybe find some inspiration in these tspa files:
https://github.com/tektronix/keithley/tree/pr/5/TSP_Apps
Wasn't there supposed to be an App build guide/manual planned by Keithley, or did they give that up?
It hasnt been given up on as far as I know. I can guess that it has been delayed due to higher priority work. I suppose I could check in on its progress.That's great to hear, and please do check in - would love some more info, even just a command/syntax listing (rather than a full step-by-step guide) would be better than nothing.
command/syntax listingOh, that's not a problem. The lua language lives inside. Documentation about it is available and open source. The version can be found by calling the command print (_VERSION). In my opinion there is 5.0.4 but I could be wrong. I've watched this for a long time.
Anyone else has the problem that the pop-up is included in the screenshot?
Apologies up front if this has been asked here, but I have not made it through all of the 55 pages (so far) of this thread. I just got a DMM6500, with ver 1.7.5b. Just had a chance for a first peek, and I see two screens that are cut off at the bottom -- sys settings, and calc settings (pics attached).
Has anyone seen this? Hope that a fw update will fix it.
Other than that my first impression is wow!
Apologies up front if this has been asked here, but I have not made it through all of the 55 pages (so far) of this thread. I just got a DMM6500, with ver 1.7.5b. Just had a chance for a first peek, and I see two screens that are cut off at the bottom -- sys settings, and calc settings (pics attached).
Has anyone seen this? Hope that a fw update will fix it.
Other than that my first impression is wow!
Or maybe DMM6500 can be fully controlled with a mouse from the web UI ? If it is the case, then maybe it could be ok to keep it ? ("hum" noise is not that much of an issue, I can take the plug off anyway).With digitizing you could get update problems on the WebUI also multi touch for zooming isn't an option.
I must have been very lucky because my DMM6500 has no hum at all.I'm surprised that you're saying "no hum at all", but if your mains voltage is on the low side (especially if you've got it in the 240V setting) then it could be minimal - I found a fairly strong dependence on mains voltage, with a ~10% drop making a major reduction in noise. Not unexpected given the physics involved, just a shame the design was so on-the-limit for saturation in high-line 240V/50Hz areas.
I must have been very lucky because my DMM6500 has no hum at all.I'm doubt. Maybe you have in the same room other sources of hum which your mind is used to ignore.
I must have been very lucky because my DMM6500 has no hum at all.I'm surprised that you're saying "no hum at all", but if your mains voltage is on the low side (especially if you've got it in the 240V setting) then it could be minimal - I found a fairly strong dependence on mains voltage, with a ~10% drop making a major reduction in noise. Not unexpected given the physics involved, just a shame the design was so on-the-limit for saturation in high-line 240V/50Hz areas.
E-Design - interesting to hear about the reason for the double unit; is the second (DAQ supply) transformer actually used in a DMM6500? Or just when an optional scanner card is plugged in?
Looked around and couldn't find anything on how the DMM6500 measures RMS AC. Does anyone know how this is done, an analog RMS chip converter, or like the KS3446x using the computed values from the ADC?
Believe the Siglent SDM3065X using an analog RMC converter chip and not a computed value like the KS.
Also, how does the DMM6500 behave with high crest factor waveforms?
Thanks for the reply.
Best,
New firmware 1.7.10
The captions on the charts have become beautiful.
Nice! I see they also solved one issue that I reported a while ago to Keithley (and shared (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keithley-dmm6500/msg3372884/#msg3372884) here on the forum), which was a crash when hitting the print screen button twice within 10 seconds or so.Can you tell me where you wrote to report the problem? My messages have been ignored for years.
Can you tell me where you wrote to report the problem? My messages have been ignored for years.
I also reported the problem to 2020 and they confirmed to me that they see it. Maybe we need more time :)QuoteCan you tell me where you wrote to report the problem? My messages have been ignored for years.
I reported the issue around December 2020 to Keithley. After a couple of further email exchanges in the days after, a representative of Tektronix/Keithley informed me that they were able to replicate the crashes I was experiencing there as well. But it took several more firmware updates until they addressed it in new firmware.
New firmware 1.7.10
The captions on the charts have become beautiful.
New firmware 1.7.10
The captions on the charts have become beautiful.
I must be blind, just did the update and don't see a difference. Please point it out!I left a screenshot above. Look at the Y-axis caption. They are better than they were. More readable.
When you load the 1.7.10 firmware into your instrument, system messages will display the firmware version as 1.7.1. This is only a cosmetic issue and does not impact the performance of the unit. Subsequent firmware upgrades will display a two-digit firmware version number.
To install firmware version 1.7.10 on your instrument, use the Downgrade to older option from the front panel or use the downgrade remote commands. See "Upgrading the firmware" in your instrument's Reference Manual for more information.
Hi all, thanks for all the good info on the DMM6500 from this thread!
I have been using mine to to a bit of resistor binning for a circuit that was touchier than expected, and I found out that the DMM6500 has a sorting/binning script as an example, that uses the digital IO lines. But: I don't have digital IO lines, because I don't have a comms card!
I have already been looking at making a DIY channel card, and I figured I would look at the comms card interface as well, but that seems to be completely shrouded in secrecy! I can't even find a picture of the KTTI-[RS232, TSP, GPIB] boards anywhere to get just a hint of the circuit!
Is there anyone who has one of those cards who would be kind enough to provide pictures of the circuit board? Or has any sort of info on how it works, and whether it's possible to DIY a board for it? Thanks!
Yes, I think this was confirmed by Keithley.
Looks like trigger on 6500 is software, ...
I have been planning to make a scripts that sends out data over to our 'cloud' at work.
Since the required reaction time is slow in your case you can probably do the same and just MQTT subscribe to the value(s) on your light control device, it should make the software easier and flexible but it would make it network dependent.
The plus side is you have some extra logging.
(it may be more work if you have to setup a cloud first)
The device can also send to a cloud service natively!
Check out
https://www.initialstate.com/keithley/ (https://www.initialstate.com/keithley/)
When calibrating a DMM6500 is each calibration point individual and can be made individually? I.e. no need to do a whole range or all measurements.
Reason I ask is that i just got a DMM6500. On a very certain 5.00000 volt source it show 4.99985. Still in spec, but a bit too far out for my liking.
I can generate very exact 0.1V, 10V, 100V and 1000V, so would want to do own calibration for DC voltage only.
Make sure to check and maybe adjust the ZERO calibration before starting to change any other values.
Also, if the ZERO has drifted, it would be best to calibrate step by step all DC values as suggested by the manual.
Hello dear E-Design!
I can't find any information in datasheet about what β-value you are design for NTC 10k temperature measurements?
I try use DMM6500 on NTC 10k with β 3870K but i see it is incorrect value, when i moving from 25С to any direction i see too much error.
It's looks like as you are using β-value too different... Maybe you use β-value around 34**K?
Also - how i can measure NTC 10k in 4-wire mode? (in Keysight DMM like as 34410A i can enable that mode)
(Attachment Link)
Model number: 44006 is specifically mentioned for 10k thermistor in the specifications document.
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/261/44006-275331.pdf (https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/261/44006-275331.pdf)
Hello dear E-Design!
I can't find any information in datasheet about what β-value you are design for NTC 10k temperature measurements?
I try use DMM6500 on NTC 10k with β 3870K but i see it is incorrect value, when i moving from 25С to any direction i see too much error.
It's looks like as you are using β-value too different... Maybe you use β-value around 34**K?
Also - how i can measure NTC 10k in 4-wire mode? (in Keysight DMM like as 34410A i can enable that mode)
(Attachment Link)
Model number: 44006 is specifically mentioned for 10k thermistor in the specifications document.
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/261/44006-275331.pdf (https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/261/44006-275331.pdf)
This is helpfull, but have anyone found other thermistors that work well?
Hi everyone,
I have tried to write some script to improve/repair awful default diode test. My script works as on good old flukes (e.g. model 45) - as old as me probably ;)
Here is what script can do:
-one beep: when you are in range (0,25V..0,8V).
-no beep: when you are above,
-contstant beep: when you are below.
-frequency for sound is 2kHz (not this original shitty sound).
All seems to be fine when script is running BUT I observed some really big problem: after switch-off script and go to regular mode e.g. voltage measuring all is ok. When I switched-on script again meter became unusable. Sometimes is just one sequence on-off-on, sometimes two when unit is stop responding. The only rescue is reboot unit.
Could one of you can confirm this? Please find tsp file in attachment.
I thought that in my script some routine at the end like "reset buffer on exit" is missing however I dint find something like this.
What is wrong?
I've had a bit of a search around and have not seen this come up yet (although it may have)
Am I going crazy or is this a bug?
The issue is with the notify command forgetting its assigned to timer.
I think its a bug.
Anyone seen this before :wtf:
https://youtu.be/g9NauzUXyR0
(https://youtu.be/g9NauzUXyR0)
I would be more interested in where can one get it as cheap as few years ago ;) .Those days probably never come back.
Please help. Is it possible to configure a trigger to turn the multimeter into a window comparator? That is, keep the trigger output high at a certain voltage range. Or is it necessary to write a script for such a task?
Hello.
Please help. Is it possible to configure a trigger to turn the multimeter into a window comparator? That is, keep the trigger output high at a certain voltage range. Or is it necessary to write a script for such a task?
Besides I ask to assume high-speed performance of this system. Yes, I understand that there is a direct relationship with accuracy. Is a reaction time of less than one tenth of a second achievable for an error of tens of millivolts in the 10V range?
Or is it still easier to assemble an "iron" comparator :)
Perhaps someone is familiar with the solution, I will be grateful for the hint.
Thanks.
So it's now February 2023. If I were to buy a new DMM6500, would it still have these problems?
- Transformer hum (240V, 50Hz)
- Poor viewing angle on the LCD screen
Still a bit confused as some folks here say it is silent. I have a tinnitus but I can hear it from 6 meters away - across the room.
Still a bit confused as some folks here say it is silent. I have a tinnitus but I can hear it from 6 meters away - across the room.Tried to see if it was the case vibrating? Some of my PSUs have that. It may go away if you put something on top of it or put some stress on the frame or put a small spacer between the transformer and the case.
....
I will return it. Not sure if it makes sense to order a second unit to test.
Check the mains voltage setting - if it's set at 110 or 220 then try the next step up (120 or 240 depending on region). Might help the hum if you're running highish mains voltage for your area.:clap:
Wow, changing the voltage setting from 220V (default) to 240V made a big difference for me. I can still hear a slight hum when I put my ear right next to it, but it's almost silent when I am about 50cm - 1m away from it.
Thanks Hydron!
Out of interest, how high is your mains voltage typically?I just measured 239.41V - so perfect match for the 240V setting.
If you're trying to quiet the fan, it might be more effective to find the appropriate version of these for your fan: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08XQVJ244/ (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08XQVJ244/)At least on my fan, noise is not caused by fan vibrations, so decoupling bumpers will not help. If I remove the case, and consequently, the integrated honeycomb shaped fan grill, the fan is quite silent. Nearly all of the noise is created by the air being sucked through the honeycomb-shaped grill holes. At the grill holes, the air is quite turbulent because the fan blades are only a millimeter away and there is a large pressure gradient, which both causes the noise. My hope was that I could design kind of a spacer, that could force the turbulent airflow into a more laminar flow, resulting in less noise. Or maybe smoothing out the pressure gradient with an inserted air filter could help. According to my initial tests, a simple spacer which only increases the distance from the fan to the fan grill will not decrease the noise noticeably due to the large pressure gradient at the grill.
As you said, the fan is actually not that loud. The voltage at the fan terminal is 2.9 VDC. I added a diode in series to drop the voltage to approx. 2.3 VDC.Thank you for the reply. I read through some DMM6500-noise-fighting-PDF posted earlier in this thread and tried to find out if there is a solution without reducing the airflow. A very effective way would most likely be to remove the honeycomb-grill and replace it with the classical circular round wire type grill. However, I do not want to damage the casing. So that solution is out of question. Another thing I noticed while experimenting is that the fan is far quieter pushing air through that grill, than sucking the air through. Sadly that does not lead to anything, since reversing fan will mess up the airflow inside the device.
This is a good compromise for me. I also tried adding a 3d printed spacer, which made the fan even quieter but the transformer hum became too dominant again.
I finally removed the spacer and just kept the org. fan with the diode mod.
@Pinörkel, I think you mentioned having a bit of a blurry DMM6500 display or issues with the viewing angle of the display?@0x2102: Thank you for the information regarding the display. The upper panel looks similar to mine and has viewing angle issues like a TN display. The lower one does look more like a VA or an IPS panel.
Did you ever sort it out? Did Keithley RMA the display?
I can definitely confirm that there are two different type of displays for the DMM6500.
The top unit has a calibration date of 3/2023 (display not as crisp, viewing angle limited) and the bottom unit 5/2023 (display sharp, no issues with viewing angle).
The displays are quite a bit different and that probably explains why some people have no issues with their unit and others find the display quality "subpar".
Are they both resistive touch?It's capacitive.
How does a resistive layer hold up with time? I'm worried that it may get scratches too easy.
I can definitely confirm that there are two different type of displays for the DMM6500.
The top unit has a calibration date of 3/2023 (display not as crisp, viewing angle limited) and the bottom unit 5/2023 (display sharp, no issues with viewing angle).
Unfair comparison. The upper display still has the lousy protecting film on it, the lower one doesn’t seem to have it. I would be shocked if removing it doesn’t improve the viewing experience :)As I had of course tested on my device, the protective film has no significant influence on the poor contrast or the screen doubling. It only adds environmental reflections. You can clearly see that in 0x2102's photos, where the settings menu area between the buttons is nearly black on the lower display(as it would be on the upper one when viewed from straight on) and medium gray in the upper one. This does not happen to the 100% black area around the voltage readout value, which clearly hints to a display tech contrast issue.
You can clearly see that in 0x2102's photos, where the settings menu area between the buttons is nearly black on the lower display(as it would be on the upper one when viewed from straight on) and medium gray in the upper one. This does not happen to the 100% black area around the voltage readout value, which clearly hints to a display tech contrast issue.
I see, thank you… Also, have you tried adjusting the brightness setting (page 2-6 in the manual) to bring the dark background closer to black?Since this only regulates the backlight brightness, it naturally cannot mitigate angle dependent loss of contrast or screen doubling. The strength of the issue scales with backlight brightness, so it remains at the same relative strength to the black value of the display.
I see, thank you… Also, have you tried adjusting the brightness setting (page 2-6 in the manual) to bring the dark background closer to black?Since this only regulates the backlight brightness, it naturally cannot mitigate angle dependent loss of contrast or screen doubling. The strength of the issue scales with backlight brightness, so it remains at the same relative strength to the black value of the display.
I received my DMM6500 this week (Calibration 02/2024). The hum was very noticeable. I could alter the sound by pressing on the case. Besides the hum i'm really impressed by the instrument. It's really sad, that Keithley didn't solve this issue once and for all after so many years. I'll return it in exchange for another unit and hope for the best.