Author Topic: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510  (Read 60641 times)

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Offline analogRF

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #200 on: October 16, 2018, 06:12:02 am »
looks very good  |O
 

Online exe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #201 on: October 17, 2018, 01:31:27 am »
Is it possible to a small gap each three decades? Like on keysight instruments (notice a gap after "0.634": https://www.keysight.com/en/pdx-2891615-pn-34461A/digital-multimeter-6-digit-truevolt-dmm?cc=NL&lc=dut .
 

Offline HKJ

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #202 on: October 19, 2018, 01:35:30 am »
I bought a 6500 meter sometime ago and decided to do a review of it before it got stuffed into my test setup.

It is a fairly long review: http://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMKeithley%20DMM6500%20UK.html

 
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #203 on: October 19, 2018, 03:14:03 am »
I bought a 6500 meter sometime ago and decided to do a review of it before it got stuffed into my test setup.

It is a fairly long review: http://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMKeithley%20DMM6500%20UK.html

Very nice review of the DMM6500.
I also looked at your other great DMM reviews, you put lots of work in to this.
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 

Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #204 on: October 20, 2018, 06:44:16 am »
Is it possible to a small gap each three decades? Like on keysight instruments (notice a gap after "0.634": https://www.keysight.com/en/pdx-2891615-pn-34461A/digital-multimeter-6-digit-truevolt-dmm?cc=NL&lc=dut .
On the main display: that is not possible right now, for the probe hold app: yes, I can add an option for small spacing in the next release.

I bought a 6500 meter sometime ago and decided to do a review of it before it got stuffed into my test setup.

It is a fairly long review: http://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMKeithley%20DMM6500%20UK.html
Thank you for the review!  One thing I wanted to point out though, the KickStart software you talk about actually comes free when you purchase a 6500/6510 (this is true anywhere, not just in the US).  You should contact whoever you purchased your DMM from and ask for your free KICKSTARTFL-BASE license.  You may need to provide your unit's serial number too.
 

Offline HKJ

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #205 on: October 20, 2018, 06:14:47 pm »
One thing I wanted to point out though, the KickStart software you talk about actually comes free when you purchase a 6500/6510 (this is true anywhere, not just in the US).  You should contact whoever you purchased your DMM from and ask for your free KICKSTARTFL-BASE license.  You may need to provide your unit's serial number too.

I will do that next week.
 
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Offline MikeP

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #206 on: October 22, 2018, 08:15:55 am »
 Once I got efficiency of my converter over 100% (actually about 98%). I thought: the perpetual motion machine and Nobel Prize it is good, but … I need more precision tools. The most significant error is a current measurement and current shunt is a great toy. I considered some resistors (other story) and DMMs. Keithley 6500 has 1 Ohm range, therefore has better accuracy than Keysight 34461/5 (lower range 100 Ohm).

 Here comparison of specifications (10 mOhm/1 year)
 Keysight 34461: 1uOhm (reading) + 4mOhm (range) = +/-4,001 mOhm. Accuracy: +/-40%.
 Keysight 34465: 0,6uOhm (reading) + 4mOhm (range) = +/-4,0006 mOhm. Accuracy: +/-40%.
 Keithley 6500: 0,85uOhm (reading) + 200uOhm (range) = +/-0,20085 mOhm. Accuracy: +/-2%.

 Here one more comparison of specifications (1 mOhm/1 year):
 Keysight 34461: 0,1uOhm (reading) + 4mOhm (range) = +/-4,001 mOhm. Accuracy: +/-400%.
 Keysight 34465: 0,06uOhm (reading) + 4mOhm (range) = +/-4,0006 mOhm. Accuracy: +/-400%.
 Keithley 6500: 0,085uOhm (reading) + 200uOhm (range) = +/-0,20085 mOhm. Accuracy: +/-20%.
 So I got DMM6500.

 I understand that the actual accuracy is much better.  I will show calibrations data report of my multimeter once again.
 Measurement of 10 Ohm and 1 Ohm at calibration:
 1 Ohm. Spec. accuracy: +/-285uOhm. Actual error: - 5 uOhm, uncertainty: 31 uOhm.
 10 Ohm. Spec. accuracy: +/-1005uOhm. Actual error: - 50 uOhm, uncertainty: 140 uOhm.
 Unfortunately, any data for smaller resistance it is not provided. I decided to make experiment: measurement of low resistance - 10 Ohm, 1 Ohm, 100 mOhm, 10 mOhm and 1 mOhm.

 Less than 3 months after cal. I made special cable for experiment: teflon shielded + crimped connectors. All measurements repeated many times. Durations: 0.5-2 hours. Tamb - 21-23C. Settings: NPLC - 12, repeat filter count - 100, autozero ON, power sync ON … Later I will show a difference between other settings
Resistors inaccuracy not considered (better than 0.01%). I consider the resistor like an absolutely precise - I do not know the actual resistance, and it does not matter at all.

 My modest experience does not allow commenting on these data, I can’t speak about uncertainty of measurements and more difficult aspects. I understand the difficulty of measuring low resistance. I will be very grateful for any comments.
 This is just data:
10 Ohm. Spec error: +/-0,0105%. Measured range: 9,999611-9,999625. Error:-0.0039%.
1 Ohm. Spec error: +/-0,0285%. Measured range: 0,9999636-0,999962. Error:-0.0038%.
100 mOhm. Spec error: +/-0,2085%. Measured range: 99.99736-99.99858. Error:-0.0027%.
10 mOhm. Spec error: +/-2,0085%. Measured range: 10,00009-10,00070. Error: +0.007%.
1 mOhm. Spec error: +/-20%. Measured range: 999,5403-999,9838. Error:-0.046%.

 Conclusion:  :clap: and now I have opportunity to create my own precision shunt.
 

Offline sstepane

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #207 on: October 24, 2018, 07:06:34 pm »
One thing I wanted to point out though, the KickStart software you talk about actually comes free when you purchase a 6500/6510 (this is true anywhere, not just in the US).  You should contact whoever you purchased your DMM from and ask for your free KICKSTARTFL-BASE license.  You may need to provide your unit's serial number too.
Hi Brad,

This is very nice to find out that unlike Keysight, customers can use get free software for a device of this level. I've been trying to contact with a seller (which is Farnell) and now they ask "Where I heard about free software" and I don't know how to answer. I've provided SN, order number, confirmation number, now they ask the exact company purchased the device (it was an agent from my country) and I'm not sure I understand where it is leading as why do they even care about all this information since S/N is traceable and a license (I think) is tied to the device... Could You help with this please?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 07:19:57 pm by sstepane »
 

Offline PTR_1275

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #208 on: October 24, 2018, 07:55:57 pm »
I bought a DMM6500 from the local dealer here in Australia. Before I even have the meter in my hands (delivery due tomorrow), I have a email about the software in my emails.
 

Offline sstepane

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #209 on: October 24, 2018, 08:01:38 pm »
I bought a DMM6500 from the local dealer here in Australia. Before I even have the meter in my hands (delivery due tomorrow), I have a email about the software in my emails.
I have found no info on the web regarding this. On top of that - I've bought it via an agent, Farnel routed my request to their local office responsible, which, unfortunately, is in Russia and they do not seem to be eager to help in any case - "we do not support third parties"...
 

Online exe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #210 on: October 24, 2018, 08:13:30 pm »
I wonder why software is not readily available for downloading to avoid all the trouble with contacting distributor, etc. If it needs to be tight to the device, a registration form can pop up during the first run.

But I'd say avoid overcomplicated purchase verification process, requiring persistent Internet connection, etc.
 
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Offline chalgoguma

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #211 on: October 25, 2018, 02:50:27 am »
Just now, after registered my DMM6500 in Tektronix site, I got Kickstart 2 base license. (I bought DMM6500 in 5-23-2018)
I saw "Redeem" link after registering serial key, and I can generated license key using host id which got from Kickstart 2  ;D

Brad, Thank for good information.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 03:09:07 am by chalgoguma »
 
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Offline sstepane

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #212 on: October 25, 2018, 03:59:04 am »
Just now, after registered my DMM6500 in Tektronix site, I got Kickstart 2 base license. (I bought DMM6500 in 5-23-2018)
I saw "Redeem" link after registering serial key, and I can generated license key using host id which got from Kickstart 2  ;D

Brad, Thank for good information.
Thanks for the tip. Will try this approach.
 

Offline MikeP

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #213 on: October 25, 2018, 08:18:23 am »
Special offer for new registered products only? For my already registered DMM6500 redeem not offered. So I re-registered multimeter, redeem is appear but then OOOOOOOOOOOOPS...
 

Offline PTR_1275

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #214 on: October 26, 2018, 02:49:47 am »
So I got my nice shiny new DMM6500, powered it up on the bench, connected it to my EDC Voltage display, was reading 100mV with the graph on the lower section of the screen, pressed menu and it blue screened.

Haven't been able to get it to do it again since.

Fw 1.0.02a which I can't even see on the Tek website.

Any idea when the next FW will be released?
 

Offline sstepane

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #215 on: October 26, 2018, 11:42:38 pm »
Hi,

Finally have got the license. Had a small issue, because I've had previously installed trial beta version, so it took one business day for tek.com to fix it. It's really easier to go via device registration and redeem of the license.
Thanks for the tip on this!

And, of course, it is very nice of Keithley to provide free license for DMM6500 owners!
 

Offline branadic

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #216 on: October 27, 2018, 12:22:10 am »
I don't want to be pessimistic, but it somewhat feels like beta test is done on the customer. Is this the new strategy at Keithley since they are part of Danaher group, to decrease time to market and development time?

-branadic-
Fluke 8050A | Prema 5000 | Prema 5017 SC | Advantest R6581D | GenRad 1434-G | Datron 4000A | Tek 2465A | VNWA2.x with TCXO upgrade and access to: Keysight 3458A, Keithley 2002, Prema 5017 SC, 34401A, 34410A, Keithley 2182A, HDO6054, Keysight 53230A and other goodies at work
 
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Offline PTR_1275

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #217 on: October 27, 2018, 04:14:07 am »
Another blue screen. This time trying to full screen the graph view.

Anyone having major issues with the auto range in 2w resistance?

I have a coil, measures ~8.6 ohms. If it’s in auto, the range relay is constantly cycling (10 times a second maybe). Manual range to 10 ohms and it’s fine, no over range. Now if I put it into auto, it is fine. If I remove a lead and reccomend it, back to the beginning.

It’s a 600 turn coil I use for checking clamp meters.

Is there any way to rearrange the lower screens? I don’t need secondary temp measurement and I find myself using screen 1, 3 and 5 the most.
 

Offline MikeP

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #218 on: October 29, 2018, 06:00:06 am »
 I promised to show the difference between the settings. This is a small comparison of "fast" and "slow" settings.

 1 mOhm at "fast" settings (5NPLC, filter 10, 27 readings or 2 min): + 0.0423%
 “Slow” measurements (12NPLC, filter 100, 0,5-1 hour): -0.046% (worst case).


 Another experiment was performed with a 10 mOhm.
 Small quantity of readings, 10 separate measurements (5NPLC, filter 10, 10 readings or 40 sec):  +/- 0.024% (worst case).
 “Slow” measurements (12NPLC, filter 100, 0,5-1 hour): +0.007% (worst case).

  I think this is evidence of low 1/f noise or small thermal fluctuations.
 

Offline evava

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #219 on: October 29, 2018, 07:24:42 pm »
Anyone having major issues with the auto range in 2w resistance?

I have a coil, measures ~8.6 ohms. If it’s in auto, the range relay is constantly cycling (10 times a second maybe). Manual range to 10 ohms and it’s fine, no over range. Now if I put it into auto, it is fine. If I remove a lead and reccomend it, back to the beginning.

It’s a 600 turn coil I use for checking clamp meters.

It is a coil. Some coil with certain properties (L and R) can confuse certain meters at autoranging - it is not so unusual behaviour. Meter gives different current at different ranges, and coil answers to that change of current by changing voltage on it, and meter answers to the change of voltage by change of range, and so on for ever.  It is difficult to settle that if worst conditions occur. That's one reason why there's still manual ranging at all meters.

And sorry to ask, but how exactly you are checking clamp meters with 600 turn coil (except demagnetize).
 

Offline HKJ

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #220 on: October 30, 2018, 12:55:21 am »
I will do that next week.

I contacted my supplied and asked them about the free Kickstarter offer, they would investigate and return. This is now one week ago and I have not gotten any response yet.
 

Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #221 on: October 30, 2018, 06:23:04 am »
Okay let's see if I can address everything...

I wonder why software is not readily available for downloading to avoid all the trouble with contacting distributor, etc. If it needs to be tight to the device, a registration form can pop up during the first run.
This has a lot to do with how our relations with distributors work, the software is really tied to the sale not the instrument.  When you buy from a distributor, you don't interact with Keithley or Tektronix at all, so unless you buy 1000 of something, we won't find out who bought what.  That's why the software promotion goes through the distributor. 

Just now, after registered my DMM6500 in Tektronix site, I got Kickstart 2 base license. (I bought DMM6500 in 5-23-2018)
I saw "Redeem" link after registering serial key, and I can generated license key using host id which got from Kickstart 2  ;D
So this is a separate promotion running right now where you can get KickStart 2 free for registering ANY currently compatible product (see the list here: https://www.tek.com/keithley-kickstart), I think this runs through the end of the year, it just started last week or thereabouts.  This is not the same thing as getting a license when you purchase a DMM6500 or 6510. 

So I got my nice shiny new DMM6500, powered it up on the bench, connected it to my EDC Voltage display, was reading 100mV with the graph on the lower section of the screen, pressed menu and it blue screened.

Haven't been able to get it to do it again since.

Fw 1.0.02a which I can't even see on the Tek website.

Any idea when the next FW will be released?
What do you mean connected to a EDC Voltage display?  Like you were measuring voltage across one of those LED displays?  If you see the blue screen again see if you can catch the code it gives, that can help us find any issues. 
FW 1.0.02a is the same is 1.0.01f, it has 2-3 behind the scenes changes to address some manufacturing problems, but doesn't affect user experience at all.  Current DMMs are shipping with 02a, but there's no reason to upgrade to it after it leaves manufacturing, so that's why it's not on the website.  The next firmware will come in early 2019.

I don't want to be pessimistic, but it somewhat feels like beta test is done on the customer. Is this the new strategy at Keithley since they are part of Danaher group, to decrease time to market and development time?
I understand your frustration, believe me, I don't like finding bugs in things I buy either.  But, we never treat a release as a beta.  Fortive (who split off from Danaher and owns us now) honestly doesn't have that much input on product development, their philosophy is luckily much more of a hands off approach.  The thing is, Keithley itself is and has always been a small company.  That approach is good for some reasons, we get tighter control over the scope of our products for example.  But it also has its negatives in that large releases like the DMM6500/DAQ6510 can put a strain on our resources.   Also, a lot of the bugs reported here are pretty obscure things that take a long time for us to even replicate.  So I wouldn't say we treat releases like betas, but bugs do slip through.

Anyone having major issues with the auto range in 2w resistance?

I have a coil, measures ~8.6 ohms. If it’s in auto, the range relay is constantly cycling (10 times a second maybe). Manual range to 10 ohms and it’s fine, no over range. Now if I put it into auto, it is fine. If I remove a lead and reccomend it, back to the beginning.

It’s a 600 turn coil I use for checking clamp meters.

Is there any way to rearrange the lower screens? I don’t need secondary temp measurement and I find myself using screen 1, 3 and 5 the most.
As evava said, that sounds like the inductance is causing an issue with autorange since ohm measurement uses a current source.  Changing ranges disconnects the current source briefly, so if the coil isn't at equilibrium, I could see that inductive kickback causing problems with the circuitry.  I would say the solution to that is leave it in manual range. 

The lower swipe screens can't be reconfigured from the front panel.  But, here's the TSP commands to delete the 2nd and 4th swipes if you don't want them:
display.delete(display.SCREEN_SECONDARY_SWIPE)
display.delete(display.SCREEN_SETTINGS_SWIPE)

You can add these commands to an autoexec.tsp file and load it to the instrument to remove these screens on startup.  Also these commands aren't documented anywhere yet (so you didn't miss anything) as they're part of the application API that's still changing quite a bit until the next firmware release.  To bring the screens back you can use
display.create(display.SCREEN_HOME, display.OBJ_SWIPE, display.SCREEN_SETTINGS_SWIPE)
display.create(display.SCREEN_HOME, display.OBJ_SWIPE, display.SCREEN_SECONDARY_SWIPE)


I contacted my supplied and asked them about the free Kickstarter offer, they would investigate and return. This is now one week ago and I have not gotten any response yet.
I'd ask you to wait one more week and then message me with your details and I will look into either getting you a license another way or reaching out to your distributor on your behalf.  In fact, maybe you should send a follow up email and tell them you've been talking with a Tektronix rep so they know you're serious.  In the mean time, you have access to the trial version right?  The trial version has no limitations other than the time limit. 
 
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Offline HKJ

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #222 on: October 30, 2018, 07:29:14 am »
I contacted my supplied and asked them about the free Kickstarter offer, they would investigate and return. This is now one week ago and I have not gotten any response yet.
I'd ask you to wait one more week and then message me with your details and I will look into either getting you a license another way or reaching out to your distributor on your behalf.  In fact, maybe you should send a follow up email and tell them you've been talking with a Tektronix rep so they know you're serious.  In the mean time, you have access to the trial version right?  The trial version has no limitations other than the time limit.

I have already told them "Keithley Apps Engineer" when they asked where I had got information about the offer. I will take it easy another week.
 
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Offline nictinkers

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #223 on: November 02, 2018, 10:27:10 pm »
I've recently changed jobs from a workplace where I had a Keysight 34461A on my bench to one with a DMM6500. I'd say that the DMM6500 has better specifications for the price but isn't necessarily as nice to live with.

The 34461A came with a nice probe set, the DMM6500 only a pair of decidedly middle-of-the-road probes. The 34461A is a much shorter unit. The DM6500, with cables out the back, measures in at around 400 mm. You need a deep desk to sit this somewhere comfortable.

There's a lot about the DMM6500 that indicates it was designed to sit in a rack as a piece of process equipment rather than on an engineer's bench. The 10A jack is only available at the back (the 34461A has it only available at the front). The input jacks are laid out differently on the front and back, which is not at all a big deal but feels anti-human.

Somebody else has mentioned that the 34461A main display separates digits in thousands. I wish the default buffers were called something more like "Buffer 1/2" or "Main Buffer" and "Secondary Buffer" rather than "defbuffer1/2". Why does the trigger mode have to be in all caps when nothing else at the top of the screen is? It's little touches like that that add up to make the Keysight feel more polished.

I'm not at all a fan of the DMM6500 touchscreen - I find the ergonomics of trying to swipe horizontally or vertically on a small, upright screen really poor, and I don't like leaving fingerprints on the screen. I wish more functionality had been made available with physical buttons.

I don't think the front panel is particularly attractive. I'm pretty sure this one was designed after the 7510 and they've made some improvements - the buttons look more balanced on either side of the screen, for example, but it's still a mess of different fonts and logos, poorly distinguished buttons and strange alignments. Why does the Ω look like it comes from a seriffed font? The screen doesn't feel vertically centred on the unit, giving it a slightly enlarged forehead.

The red strip on the top right should be the same height and vertical location as the red of the Keithley logo, for pity's sake - instead it's placed half under the rubber surround, constantly reminding me that the meter is meant to be sitting in a rack without the rubber surround attached rather than on my bench. The model number box should be aligned with the red strip and logo as well. The lurid green would make sense if it was sitting in a rack or stack to help you quickly identify the instrument but on the bench just stands out as clashing visual colour and noise.

I'm disappointed that there's no temperature sensor at the input jacks for thermocouple CJC compensation. That feels like it would have been such a cheap feature to add. Also that the instrument doesn't measure voltage and current simultaneously. It would have been really nice to be able to measure power, power factor, VA, VAR, even at some much lower resolution and accuracy than the main ADC. The capacitance range tops out at 120 µF. There's no measurement of capacitor ESR and you can't measure inductance. I'm not saying that competitive units have these features, (as I recall, the 34461A didn't even measure capacitance when it was first released) just that I think I expect more from a high-end bench multimeter released in 2018.

I've complained a lot, and about a lot of little things. I know that makes my opinion of this meter sound worse than it actually is. There are awesome things about this meter that I really like. Unlike posters here, I haven't managed to see a single blue screen. The quick setup slider (resolution vs speed) is a nice utility. The connectivity is great and the web interface is responsive. The scripting is only going to get more and more useful as more examples are published. A steady trickle of firmware releases indicating that the product is still being improved and responsive support greatly increase its value.
 

Offline MrFox

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #224 on: November 05, 2018, 12:55:27 pm »
It doesn't have "dry circuit" voltage limits on the low ohm ranges, only the 7510 and the 2010 seem to have this option?
I was wondering if it could be added later in firmware, or in scripting, or whether it's an actual hardware limitation on the 6500.
 


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