Author Topic: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510  (Read 85189 times)

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Offline jancumps

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #375 on: February 01, 2019, 10:26:34 pm »
Quote
I will continue to ask about the 7510
Can you open a 7510 thread? These posts about another instrument in they DMM6500 and DAQ6510 thread are confusing.
 
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Offline MegaVolt

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #376 on: February 03, 2019, 10:58:50 am »
Can you open a 7510 thread? These posts about another instrument in they DMM6500 and DAQ6510 thread are confusing.
You can do a lot of thread. But Brad O is one. And it seems to me that the chance to get an answer is higher if you write in one topic. Plus the software control of these two devices is very similar. If possible, I would like to stay in this thread.
 

Offline TiN

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #377 on: February 03, 2019, 01:28:40 pm »
Something tells me that Brad O will be happy to avoid confusion and will chime in separate DMM7510 thread, instead of trying to understand each time if question here about DMM6500/6510 or different instrument...
And two devices while designed around same idea, have quite different platform and indeed different firmwares.
Recommend you to start another thread, please.
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Offline MegaVolt

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #378 on: February 03, 2019, 02:35:49 pm »
Recommend you to start another thread, please.
Ok.
 

Offline cozdas

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #379 on: February 04, 2019, 03:31:30 am »
I was playing with the dual volt idea, not that it'd be very useful but as a toy project to learn DMM6500's programming capabilities and the feature set. It was also a good opportunity to learn the Lua language.

By reverse engineering the example scripts and the applications that Tektronix and Brad O provided (i.e. hold probe), I was able to convert my script to an interactive application to  eliminate most of the limitations the system puts while a script is running. Unfortunately all of these apps are using an undocumented (AFAIK) API which looks slightly buggy (that's probably why it's not released and documented yet). The main issue is that after the application is terminated the swipe screen I create stays on the screen as an orphan resource and crashes the DMM when displayed. Brad O's hold probe script suffers from the same issue as well. I can safely delete the other swipe pages but not the one I created. weird.

Another problem is that the derived voltage values are not computed if the custom swipe screen is not visible, this is probably because the window message pump is not working if the window is hidden. I could not find a way to fix this. When/if the API is released, I can revisit this script. Currently the app will catch up the missed values as soon as the dual voltage swipe screen is displayed though.

If anyone wants to play with it here it is: https://github.com/cozdas/DMM6500/tree/master/cozDualVolt . Just grab the cozDualVolt.tspa and put in a USB stick. You can access it in the Apps screen. As I said, after the application is terminated, DMM GUI becomes unstable so it'd be a good idea to reboot.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 11:47:32 am by cozdas »
 
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #380 on: February 04, 2019, 11:32:20 am »
@cozdas
That's perfect, for what you can do. Thanks a lot.
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #381 on: February 04, 2019, 05:05:12 pm »
Timeline (x-achsis) is wrong. (normal use)
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Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #382 on: February 04, 2019, 06:02:43 pm »
Why should you need a Fan? This is a professional working tool, having to listen to a Fan (all day) is fatiguing.
Would it be possible to have a low speed mode or even being able to turn it of, maybe with some penalties is performance?

Yes, turning mostly to Brad O here.
Bit of a simple answer really, but the fan is needed to manage the heat of the internal components.  The higher performing digital and analog circuits used in our modern DMMs generate more heat that needs to be managed compared to, say, a model 2000.  A low speed mode is not likely (we looked into it), that would alter the box enough that it would require different specs, so the box would need two independent specifications for every function.

BUT, if it really bothers you, you can open the box and unplug it.  As far as tear downs go, the DMM6500/DAQ6510 is pretty easy.  Of course, opening the box voids your warranty and these directions I'm about to give should not be construed as a recommendation to open up your box and disable the fan. 
The easiest way would be to remove the top panel, then the front display, which can slide out, but be careful of the terminal wire connections.  If you then look into the box, underneath the analog board and behind the transformers, you'll see the 3 wires that make up the fan cable coming out of a little daughter board.  Compare to the cable coming out of the fan on the left to be sure you have the right plug.  You can remove that cable, put everything back together, and the box will function normally (throwing a fan error on startup that can be ignored).  The box in this setup (obviously) may not meet specs, particularly on higher ranges and any digitize mode.  To plug the fan back in, you will likely need to remove the analog board, which also isn't too difficult, just more work.  You may find it easier to remove the analog board when unplugging the fan too if you're having difficulty finding or unplugging the fan cable.

@cozdas and others
A note on the digits, ALL digits past what is guaranteed by the specs have no value.  Even if they look reasonable, they are only eyecandy and may be a different value in an hour/day/month.  The way the instrument is calibrated and its design error budget / uncertainties mean you shouldn't use anything past what the specs say if you want to consider them valid.  If we secretly designed an 8.5 digit meter into a 6.5 digit meter, you can be sure we would be charging an 8.5 meter price ;)

I can share the script, sure. But before exposing my trick to display 7+ digits I want to make sure that spying( :) ) Keithley guys won't have this "feature" fixed in the new firmwares ;)
Lol, don't worry, that's an intended feature.  The primary reason you would use a writable buffer is to plot and display calculated or imported (from another instrument) data that could be any number of digits.  This also means that, while writable buffers still specify their resolution with half digit notation, they allow full scale digits in each place since a calculated value could be anything.  So a buffer.DIGITS_8_5 writable buffer is really 9 digits.

You can right click virtual front panel for screen only  :)
There was actually an argument between a couple engineers debating whether right-clicking would be useful to people.  Glad you like it! ;D

Hey @analogRF I don’t know if you’ve bought a 6500 yet, but I put together that Probe hold script for you and anyone else (@MikeP).  Also see the end for news on firmware.

It uses the App interface of the DMM so it behaves a little differently from a normal script.  I put together some info below.

INSTRUCTIONS:
1.   Download the attached file and change the .txt ending to .tspa
2.   Make sure your DMM’s command set is set to TSP in MENU > Settings
3.   Put the script on a USB drive and insert into the DMM
4.   Press the APPS key and go to the USB tab
5.   You can either run the script here, or save it to local memory first (it will be added to local memory automatically)
6.   Click Run

....
I like this script. When working in DCV mode, it helps to put the meter input impedance to 10 MOhm. In high impedance mode the probes can float above the threshold voltage by just laying on the table or being unconnected, in your hand, and add unwanted entries in the hold table when moving from testpoint to testpoint.

One thing I noticed is that the threshold label says that anything above it  is captured, but if you enter 2 V, also -2.5 V is captured. Not an issue, but it seems contrary to what's labeled.
Ah yes, it was always my intention for that threshold to be symmetric about 0, so I can update the labeling.  I'm planning to write another version that is more stable, but it requires features that aren't in the currently available firmware.

Quote
I will continue to ask about the 7510
Can you open a 7510 thread? These posts about another instrument in they DMM6500 and DAQ6510 thread are confusing.
Yes please!  MegaVolt let me know what that other thread is so I can subscribe to it (I just checked and didn't see it).  7510 questions also take a bit more time to answer since some of the design engineers are on different projects now so I have to hunt them down more and they may have to look up design documents.  The DMM6500/DAQ6510 engineers are all still together.

 
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Offline Brad O

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #383 on: February 04, 2019, 06:12:13 pm »
I was playing with the dual volt idea, not that it'd be very useful but as a toy project to learn DMM6500's programming capabilities and the feature set. It was also a good opportunity to learn the Lua language.

By reverse engineering the example scripts and the applications that Tektronix and Brad O provided (i.e. hold probe), I was able to convert my script to an interactive application to  eliminate most of the limitations the system puts while a script is running. Unfortunately all of these apps are using an undocumented (AFAIK) API which looks slightly buggy (that's probably why it's not released and documented yet). The main issue is that after the application is terminated the swipe screen I create stays on the screen as an orphan resource and crashes the DMM when displayed. Brad O's hold probe script suffers from the same issue as well. I can safely delete the other swipe pages but not the one I created. weird.

Another problem is that the derived voltage values are not computed if the custom swipe screen is not visible, this is probably because the window message pump is not working if the window is hidden. I could not find a way to fix this. When/if the API is released, I can revisit this script. Currently the app will catch up the missed values as soon as the dual voltage swipe screen is displayed though.

If anyone wants to play with it here it is: https://github.com/cozdas/DMM6500/tree/master/cozDualVolt . Just grab the cozDualVolt.tspa and put in a USB stick. You can access it in the Apps screen. As I said, after the application is terminated, DMM GUI becomes unstable so it'd be a good idea to reboot.
Very cool!  If you're interested, send me a PM and we can talk about giving you a preliminary copy of the API for you to play around with so you can see what the arguments for these commands actually are.  You are correct in that it's not publicly documented because it still has bugs in it.

The reason why the values stop being computed if you swipe away from the created screen is that your timer object exists on that swipe screen, when you swipe away, all objects on the screen are disabled.  The development firmware allows you to place timers at display.ROOT (the global display object space) so the readings would always be calculated. 

Timeline (x-achsis) is wrong. (normal use)

Wait, what's wrong with the x-axis?
 
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Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #384 on: February 04, 2019, 06:29:49 pm »
I would not recommend disconnecting or slowing down the fan. Not so much because of possibly changed specs, but because of a possible change in the calibration. So it's not just warranty void but also calibration void.

A changing air flow over analog parts could cause slight shift in analog properties - so a temperature regulated fan is also not a good option. It would be if the analog part would be fully encapsulated, like in some RF instruments, so that there is no direct air flow over sensitive parts.

There might be a market for a fan off version - that only enables the fan when really hot. One can not expect accurate readings at high temperature anyway. This may be just a different calibration.
 
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Offline MegaVolt

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #385 on: February 04, 2019, 07:12:33 pm »
MegaVolt let me know what that other thread is so I can subscribe to it (I just checked and didn't see it).
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/all-about-keithley-dmm7510-bugs-and-features-recipes-advice-notes/
 
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #386 on: February 04, 2019, 08:09:53 pm »
Timeline (x-achsis) is wrong. (normal use)

Wait, what's wrong with the x-axis?
The marks "0d:21" .. "1d:00" .. "1d:04" .. "1d:07" are relative meaningless to me. The methode is 'show all', what it does, the scale is 13.76 ks, the axsismarks are fixed there the whole 2nd day for now. In my opinion the axismarks should be fairly correspond to the cumulative measurement.

Quote
A note on the digits, ALL digits past what is guaranteed by the specs have no value.  Even if they look reasonable, they are only eyecandy and may be a different value in an hour/day/month.  The way the instrument is calibrated and its design error budget / uncertainties mean you shouldn't use anything past what the specs say if you want to consider them valid.  If we secretly designed an 8.5 digit meter into a 6.5 digit meter, you can be sure we would be charging an 8.5 meter price ;)

That's right. But as you can see here, the 1st 'crazy'-picture still shows me roughly what's happening on the 7th digit of the measurement. Irrespective of whether the inaccuracy uncertainty comes from the DMM or DUT, it is valuable for me to see this.  :)

Thanks
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 08:35:39 pm by hwj-d »
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Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #387 on: February 04, 2019, 08:57:52 pm »
Using  1d:04 and so one for indicating days and hours is at least unusual. Unless really long time of many days, I would prefer using just hours even of the numbers go beyond 100.

The tick spacing is odd: the difference is between 3 and 4 hours - so some odd rounding going one, where it should not be. This is a little like the other ticks. So the problem is not specific to the x-axis or long times - it's more like another example of the known problem with the scaling.

The ticks should be a exact, round numbers, like every 1 / 2 / 5 / ... mV  or 1 / 3 / 6 / 12 hours apart and the graphics adjusted to this. Currently it looks like it is the other way around with exactly a given number of ticks and than odd rounded numbers. Under extreme cases this leads to same numbers on several or even all tics  :palm:. These extreme zoom cases are only the ones where the error gets most obvious.
 
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Offline cozdas

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #388 on: February 06, 2019, 06:51:53 am »
You can remove that cable, put everything back together, and the box will function normally (throwing a fan error on startup that can be ignored).  The box in this setup (obviously) may not meet specs, particularly on higher ranges and any digitize mode.

If fanless operation only effects the accuracy and does have a permanent effect, then can you please, pretty please add an option to the firmware to turn it off? I'm sure that your internal team will be worried about the unit being out of spec  in this mode but this feature can be hidden (reached only via the TSP interface for example), unit can warn you about the accuracy loss with a flashing red screen that requires triple "I understand" clicks, there may be a always visible small note in the corner of the screen and the device can return to the normal operation on each restart. But at least for some of us the accurate readings is not a requirement all the time. While developing an application for it, for example, I need to keep the device on mostly doing nothing but occasionally running my screen script code while I need to endure the constant sound coming from it all the time.

...ALL digits past what is guaranteed by the specs have no value.  Even if they look reasonable, they are only eyecandy and may be a different value in an hour/day/month.
From the uncertainty point of view, you are totally right. But I respectfully disagree with you on the "extra digits being just eyecandy". Accuracy/uncertainty is not the whole picture. If you have two devices you need to evaluate the noise of and DUT1 moves the 7th digit only between 4 and 6 while DUT2 moves the same digit between 2 and 9 most of the time and if this behavior is "repeatable" with the same DMM even better "reproducable" with a second DMM, then this is a useful and valid "data" even "information". Note that they'll look totally identical In 6.5 digit mode.

Accuracy is only one of the aspects of the measurement. Most of the time the devices behave well above their guaranteed specs which are (and need to be) very conservative. Also the "precision" of the devices are usually much better than their "accuracy". Of course I'm not claiming that 7th digit of a 6.5 digit DMM is as useful as the same digit of a 7.5 digit DMM. But as long as you are aware of the differences between accuracy, precision, resolution, trueness, bias, repeatability, reproducability, etc, there is some information in those digits that you can safely extract even while watching the display. A very safe one-size-fits-all, rule of thumb approach is "ignore the digits beyond what the accuracy spec says" of course. There is nothing wrong with it but it's somehow over-pessimistic for "some" scenarios.

Thanks again for monitoring this topic and answering all the questions in detail, appreciated.  :-+
 

Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #389 on: February 06, 2019, 04:13:16 pm »
Using  1d:04 and so one for indicating days and hours is at least unusual. Unless really long time of many days, I would prefer using just hours even of the numbers go beyond 100.
That belongs to what someone is looking for. In my case i'm looking for when some of my refs goes crazy, as I have already described here. And they do it very sporadically over the time. Are there only some? Or all? All the same time? Is it with my precise resistors too? And finaly, is it the dmm or dut or environmental influences?

All this makes long-term measurements really necessary. Especially since this special measuring device is predestined for this purpose.

It may be that measuring compensates itself with time through routine, which I, as a lone fighter and autodidact, must first work out myself. And frankly, i see a lot more long-term measurements here in metrology ...  ;)

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Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #390 on: February 06, 2019, 04:40:51 pm »
The 6500 is definitely a good instrument to do long time measurements, like over several days. It is just that the way the times are printed is unusual. It's more like a personal taste of one prefers 245 hours or 10 days and 5 hours.  It if there are daily cycles the notation with days may indeed be a little more practical.

The main point is that the scaling of the axis in the graph mode needs some attention / updates. It looks like this effects both the x and y axis and very likely would also effect resistor readings.
 
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #391 on: February 06, 2019, 04:48:14 pm »
The 6500 is definitely a good instrument to do long time measurements, like over several days. It is just that the way the times are printed is unusual. It's more like a personal taste of one prefers 245 hours or 10 days and 5 hours.  It if there are daily cycles the notation with days may indeed be a little more practical.

The main point is that the scaling of the axis in the graph mode needs some attention / updates. It looks like this effects both the x and y axis and very likely would also effect resistor readings.

Absolutely yes.
I think I misunderstood something that would be unusual in itself for such long-term measurements. Sorry.
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #392 on: February 09, 2019, 01:44:05 am »
I measured a pure brandnew Vishay 0,0 ppm/°C VHP101 10k Resistor (Digi-Key), relative, 4-wire, after let it settle down fore more than one hour. Ambient room-temp was 21.1°C.

I opened the windows for a while, and the temp goes down to 19.2°C, closed them again, and temp changes back to 20.6°C.

If Vishay is right (0,0 ppm/°C), this must be the pure tempco of the dmm6500.
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Offline TiN

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #393 on: February 09, 2019, 02:17:17 am »
Quote
If Vishay is right (0,0 ppm/°C)
Nope, you falled for their specmanship like many others. Those resistors are not zero TCR, but they are pretty good.
To stay on topic, you need larger themperature sweep to better measure TCRs and repeat test multiple times to be sure, as possible hysteresis might bias your data.
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #394 on: February 09, 2019, 03:08:58 am »
Quote
If Vishay is right (0,0 ppm/°C)
Nope, you falled for their specmanship like many others. Those resistors are not zero TCR, but they are pretty good.
To stay on topic, you need larger themperature sweep to better measure TCRs and repeat test multiple times to be sure, as possible hysteresis might bias your data.

Right.
That's why i sayd "if", with an implicite smile.  ;)

But thanks.  :)
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Offline cozdas

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #395 on: February 09, 2019, 05:24:08 am »
I'm having trouble with two settings in DMM6500:

1) Although the manual implies that in the voltage ratio function the sense input range can be adjusted, I could not find any way to change it other than the 10V range it default to. Has anyone figured out if this is possible and how?

Here an excerpt from the manual
Quote
The SENSE terminals are used as the reference voltage (VS). The SENSE terminals can measure DC volts in 100 mV, 1 V, and 10 V ranges.

The INPUT terminals provide the voltage (Vi) to be compared against the reference voltage. They can measure DC volts in 100 mV, 1 V, 10 V, 100 V, and 1000 V ranges.

2) The graph axis system indeed needs some love. Besides the non-round division values (e.g. 11.2mv/div) I'm also having trouble plotting two traces with the same scale but different offsets. I want to see two traces one with 10V mean other with 7V mean be plotted centered on the same grid with 10mv/div so that I can compare how they change in time. It feels like if you set the Y-Axis scale method to "OFF" you should be able to change the "scale" and "minimum position" values in the in Graph/Scale tab because those fields change into buttons so that you can click and enter numbers. But once you enter the numbers for the first trace and switch to the other trace to set its values, the buttons are replaced with read-only text fields and you can't get the buttons back until you change the Y-Axis method to something else and back to OFF again. Currently the value you entered for the first trace is applied to the all other traces. I hope in the upcoming firmwares it'd be possible to set the scaling and offsetting values of each trace manually.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 10:36:10 am by cozdas »
 
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #396 on: February 09, 2019, 09:14:40 am »
cozdas

2) It's frustrating difficult to get the knobs to set the scales for one trace. Never attempted it for a second trace. This behavior of the gui is also not more as a big building site in my opinion.

Are there no TSP-commands to set that?
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Offline MegaVolt

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #397 on: February 10, 2019, 12:49:11 pm »
I'm also having trouble plotting two traces with the same scale but different offsets. I want to see two traces one with 10V mean other with 7V mean be plotted centered on the same grid with 10mv/div so that I can compare how they change in time.
You can try to take away the constant component. Those. from the first signal subtract 10. From the second 7. As a result, both signals will be near zero.

To take away, you can use scripts or math access in the settings.
 

Offline cozdas

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #398 on: February 11, 2019, 02:49:27 am »
You can try to take away the constant component. Those. from the first signal subtract 10. From the second 7. As a result, both signals will be near zero. To take away, you can use scripts or math access in the settings.

That's eventually what I did but I did that on my PC on the CSV exported data. Because you can't apply math in DMM6500 to the already collected data. There are workarounds, so it's not a show stopper of course but it'd be nice to have a better behaving and controllable graphing system.
 

Offline MegaVolt

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #399 on: February 11, 2019, 08:16:31 am »
That's eventually what I did but I did that on my PC on the CSV exported data. Because you can't apply math in DMM6500 to the already collected data. There are workarounds, so it's not a show stopper of course but it'd be nice to have a better behaving and controllable graphing system.
You can apply math during data collection. Or use the lua language which supports the device. Documentation for this is very little: (
 


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