Author Topic: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510  (Read 296902 times)

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Online MegaVolt

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1025 on: May 28, 2020, 07:47:33 pm »
If it's true, i do not buying Keithley anymore.
In my opinion this is a common Russian practice. If you want the instrument to be checked by the Keithley laboratory, you will have to send them the device by mail. Perhaps sellers of this firm can help with this.
 

Offline Anders Petersson

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1026 on: June 06, 2020, 09:44:15 am »
Is Keithley attentive to bugs in DMM6500? I'm not having luck on their forum https://forum.tek.com/viewforum.php?f=617&sid=c4090531a5c98f5d82a60b915ee4c334
I got a 2000-SCAN card and I see a lot of bugs; I think the list is approaching 10 bugs. I can report bugs but I won't waste my time if Keithley aren't listening.
 

Offline voltsandjolts

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1027 on: June 06, 2020, 10:06:13 am »
What bugs have you seen, in relation to the 2000-SCAN card specifically?
 

Offline Anders Petersson

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1028 on: June 07, 2020, 02:22:59 pm »
First, a disclaimer that I'm impressed by the level of functionality of DMM6500 in general, and I understand there's a lot of extra firmware complexity in supporting multiple channels like 2000-SCAN. I think it will be a popular model. However, there are still some bugs to iron out.

Specifically for 2000-SCAN:

*) When setting up channels, the displayed unit doesn't update until the channel is manually switched, making it quite confusing what is going on.

*) The graph scale is not updated when changing what channel is viewed (when changing from viewing 24 C temperature to a channel with 100 ohm resistance, the graph will show 24 ohm, when it should be 100 ohm). When Y-axis SmartScale is active, the axis is zoomed when the next reading appears but not sooner. For a slow scan sequence, the graph can have the wrong range settings for quite a while.

*) At this point, pressing the plus-like arrow button in the upper right to autoscale the graph does *not* correct the Y scaling until a new sample is taken. Besides, the autoscale is quite unhelpful as it prevents manually scrolling afterwards.

*) When looking at the graph of one channel that takes a burst of readings (count=10) every 10 seconds or so. Settings: X-axis=SmartScale, Y-axis=Autoscale. The Y-axis only adapts to the latest burst in some cases; some bursts go past without autoscaling.

I have also seen a bunch of other bugs, relating to sampling, graph grapics and especially the histogram view. I also lost a night of logging when the DMM froze when I attempted to view the graph in the morning.
 
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Offline E-Design

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1029 on: June 07, 2020, 05:28:27 pm »
First, a disclaimer that I'm impressed by the level of functionality of DMM6500 in general, and I understand there's a lot of extra firmware complexity in supporting multiple channels like 2000-SCAN. I think it will be a popular model. However, there are still some bugs to iron out.

Specifically for 2000-SCAN:

*) When setting up channels, the displayed unit doesn't update until the channel is manually switched, making it quite confusing what is going on.

*) The graph scale is not updated when changing what channel is viewed (when changing from viewing 24 C temperature to a channel with 100 ohm resistance, the graph will show 24 ohm, when it should be 100 ohm). When Y-axis SmartScale is active, the axis is zoomed when the next reading appears but not sooner. For a slow scan sequence, the graph can have the wrong range settings for quite a while.

*) At this point, pressing the plus-like arrow button in the upper right to autoscale the graph does *not* correct the Y scaling until a new sample is taken. Besides, the autoscale is quite unhelpful as it prevents manually scrolling afterwards.

*) When looking at the graph of one channel that takes a burst of readings (count=10) every 10 seconds or so. Settings: X-axis=SmartScale, Y-axis=Autoscale. The Y-axis only adapts to the latest burst in some cases; some bursts go past without autoscaling.

I have also seen a bunch of other bugs, relating to sampling, graph grapics and especially the histogram view. I also lost a night of logging when the DMM froze when I attempted to view the graph in the morning.

I will log these issues and bring them to the attention of the firmware team. Thanks for the feedback
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Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1030 on: June 10, 2020, 07:57:08 pm »
In countries with a limited infrastructure / cal labs there can be a problem with more modern instruments. Still if there is a Keysight cal lab available, they may be able to also do the calibration for a other brand meters or comparable grade.  I would not expect DMM6500 much different test points from the 34410 - maybe just a different software module to do it automatic. 
 

Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1031 on: June 11, 2020, 01:00:15 pm »
They do support verification for the DMM7510.
Maybe Keithley doesn't want that for these cheaper devices?
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1032 on: June 11, 2020, 02:03:41 pm »
So far it only looks like Keysight does not want the manual route and Fluke does not yet support it in there SW. From times when Fluke and Keithley belonged to the same group I had expected better support there. Should not be so complicated - unless there are some bugs in the CAL part of the DMM6500.

The DMM6500 is still relatively new, not many need calibration yet and with such a meter some users may not want to spend the money on a calibration so soon.   As long as the cal software for the cal labs does not support this meter the calibration may be more expensive (manual job) and thus less attractive. It does not look so exotic / low volume so I would expect support in future, at least for the normal DMM part without the fast digitizing mode.



 

Offline hugos31

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1033 on: June 15, 2020, 03:19:12 pm »
please help me .. why does this message come out .. multimeter restarts ... i update time..switch off computer. I disconnect from the voltage network. I reconnect equipment .. turn on and message returns to show      
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 03:26:38 pm by hugos31 »
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1034 on: June 15, 2020, 04:48:41 pm »
The message about system time not set suggests that the battery is empty  :(. This make sense after some 21 months.
 
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Offline jancumps

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1035 on: June 15, 2020, 08:14:28 pm »
.... and a few pages back are the instructions, if you want to replace it yourself.
 
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Offline E-Design

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1036 on: June 16, 2020, 10:01:26 pm »
I've try contact with Tek again, but no answer received about calibration.

Now i do perform "the last try" - tek thread started.

I bumped your message along.. we'll see if some answers come..
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Offline exe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1037 on: June 17, 2020, 03:43:58 pm »
I have a few questions for @E-Design. How much time and people it takes to make a product like DM6500? How it compares to DMM7510? Why DMM7510 is not called DMM7500? :)
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1038 on: June 19, 2020, 06:27:32 pm »
The 34410 is not accurate enough to serve as a reliable calibration source for the DMM6500. So one should not use is for an adjustment. One can of cause do a cross check and note the ratios.


The shown readings look a little odd. When comparing the positive and negative readings, there seem to be quite some turn over error. This could be a problem with things like thermal EMF or the zero adjustment. One should check this first and also do the turn over test with just swapping cables not just reversing the source setting (likely 2450).
I think one should also check the cables / reproducibility to see how much thermal EMF is about causing errors.

p.s. The BNC cables do not look good for precision DC.
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1039 on: June 19, 2020, 07:28:48 pm »
The values in the table show quite some turn over error. I have not checked the specs, but it looks like at least borderline for the linearity specs, if not over. The error looks a lot like it could be an offset problem (e.g. some 5 µV). The table is kind of missing the zero points.

So the first step would be to really check the zero offset and turn over error on both meters and preferably with 2 completely different sets of cables ( just in case).

For the zero offset of the DMM6500 there may be an additional adjustment point. The good thing here is that it does not need a special reference, just a short (e.g. a well bend copper wire).  So an zero adjustment may make sense. At least a check of the zero makes absolute sense. I would do that even more often than once a year and before any critical / sensitive measurement.

We don't know the details of the DMM6500, but I would highly suspect that it follows the same scheme as the Keithley 2000, 2001, 2002 with an zero drift buffer at the input and the auto zero mode only behind that buffer. So a drift in the input buffer would not be corrected. Though called zero drift, those OPs may show some drift over time, especially in the first few months.
 

Online MegaVolt

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1040 on: June 19, 2020, 07:56:05 pm »
If I see correctly the input is switched to 10 megohms .. In my opinion, it is better to switch to AUTO. At least the DMM7510 has a serious 5μV error if the input impedance is 10 MΩ. I don’t know how it is in 6500. But I would be safe.
 

Offline jancumps

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1041 on: June 23, 2020, 05:27:04 pm »
... We are working on documentation for the apps to release sometime later this year, the commands are still very fluid as we make some apps ourselves and figure out how we'd like the commands to work.  If you have some ideas for what you'd like to do with the interface could you send them along to me?  We're trying to put together a "wish list" of apps, I could also send you some of the documentation we have right now....
Is that documentation available? I checked the DMM650 download area and the latest TSB help files, but couldn't find an App tutorial/API.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1042 on: June 29, 2020, 03:28:31 pm »
After beating around the bush for way too long I bit the bullet and bought one of these puppies. My decision was almost exclusively based on the excellent review by Shahriar of The Signal Path. I cannot stress enough how instrumental his reviews are to get a good understanding of these kinds of tools. Keithley, please send him all your stuff.

The functionality of the meter is amazing. I've been working my way through the various features and there are so many possibilities. The previous generation of meters was excellent in its own right but this really is a world apart. From the perspective of functionality it's an incredibly useful tool. I was curious how well the touch screen would actually work but it's perfectly fine and doesn't get in the way.

Unfortunately, this meter is going back as it seems to suffer from a few quality issues.
-It hums. I bought this unit from an official dealer after being repaired and recalibrated and recertified by Keithley, as it was reported to suffer from the humming issue by a previous owner. Unfortunately it still produces a noticeable mains hum which can be heard across the bench, unlike various other meters and devices.
-The right side touch screen moves 0.5-1mm back and forth when touched. The left side seems attached as is to be expected.

- Other quirks I noticed are that the front terminal led indicator also seems to illuminate a small square section of the front panel through the plastic, sort of between the terminal selection switch and the socket above it. This is most visible with less ambient light.
- Finally the fan is isn't horrible loud, although it isn't exactly quiet either. But does it ever whine. It easily cuts through other ambient sounds. I don't think I've encountered a product with such a whiny fan in a long time.

This leaves me wondering whether Keithley pushed a bit too hard in their pursuit to bring the price down or the profit margin up. The actual device and its functionality are great, but there are a few details which let it down and which unfortunately go a long way in determining the liveability. I'm unsure whether it's an issue with quality control or with quality standards, but one of those is not what I'd expect it to be. What's your experience?
 

Offline E-Design

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1043 on: June 29, 2020, 04:12:03 pm »
After beating around the bush for way too long I bit the bullet and bought one of these puppies. My decision was almost exclusively based on the excellent review by Shahriar of The Signal Path. I cannot stress enough how instrumental his reviews are to get a good understanding of these kinds of tools. Keithley, please send him all your stuff.

The functionality of the meter is amazing. I've been working my way through the various features and there are so many possibilities. The previous generation of meters was excellent in its own right but this really is a world apart. From the perspective of functionality it's an incredibly useful tool. I was curious how well the touch screen would actually work but it's perfectly fine and doesn't get in the way.

Unfortunately, this meter is going back as it seems to suffer from a few quality issues.
-It hums. I bought this unit from an official dealer after being repaired and recalibrated and recertified by Keithley, as it was reported to suffer from the humming issue by a previous owner. Unfortunately it still produces a noticeable mains hum which can be heard across the bench, unlike various other meters and devices.
-The right side touch screen moves 0.5-1mm back and forth when touched. The left side seems attached as is to be expected.

- Other quirks I noticed are that the front terminal led indicator also seems to illuminate a small square section of the front panel through the plastic, sort of between the terminal selection switch and the socket above it. This is most visible with less ambient light.
- Finally the fan is isn't horrible loud, although it isn't exactly quiet either. But does it ever whine. It easily cuts through other ambient sounds. I don't think I've encountered a product with such a whiny fan in a long time.

This leaves me wondering whether Keithley pushed a bit too hard in their pursuit to bring the price down or the profit margin up. The actual device and its functionality are great, but there are a few details which let it down and which unfortunately go a long way in determining the liveability. I'm unsure whether it's an issue with quality control or with quality standards, but one of those is not what I'd expect it to be. What's your experience?

We do try and send as much as we can to The Signal path.

Whats your SN ? I will find out when it was built and if the issues you described should have been checked. There is still some old stock out there that might have those issues present.
 You can send it PM, I will investigate.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 04:13:36 pm by E-Design »
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Offline MikeP

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1044 on: June 30, 2020, 06:12:32 am »
 Dear friend E-design.

 I must join the previous speakers and repeat the remark about a very noisy fan. It really poisons life.  :horse:

 I have a question or request. There are two scripts for measuring power. One was created by Keithley staff, and the second is written by Mike Green. Unfortunately, both programs have flaws and turn work into torment. This includes the need to restart the device, the impossibility of an operative stop and restart of the measurement, difficult access to the buffer, the lack of access to control the filter and the NPLC parameter .......

 If it is possible to take the best of both programs and remove the defects? The script could become a full and essential function.

 Thanks.
 
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Offline KedasProbe

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1045 on: June 30, 2020, 11:53:59 am »
About your power measurement, if the power supply voltage is a constant, it will work much easier just to use the linear conversion of the DMM. (it's possible to change the unit X but it must be done with a script)
Depends on how accurate you need it.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 11:57:47 am by KedasProbe »
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
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Offline JxR

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1046 on: July 01, 2020, 01:45:25 am »
I must join the previous speakers and repeat the remark about a very noisy fan. It really poisons life.  :horse:

I always have to wonder if either: I have serious hearing loss, the fan is defective, or the owner has super hearing, etc.  I have to turn mine off and on more than once just to convince myself there is even a fan in the thing it is so quiet.  Hopefully there is just something wrong with the fan, and it can be swapped out.
 

Offline JxR

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1047 on: July 01, 2020, 02:21:09 am »
After beating around the bush for way too long I bit the bullet and bought one of these puppies. My decision was almost exclusively based on the excellent review by Shahriar of The Signal Path. I cannot stress enough how instrumental his reviews are to get a good understanding of these kinds of tools. Keithley, please send him all your stuff.

The functionality of the meter is amazing. I've been working my way through the various features and there are so many possibilities. The previous generation of meters was excellent in its own right but this really is a world apart. From the perspective of functionality it's an incredibly useful tool. I was curious how well the touch screen would actually work but it's perfectly fine and doesn't get in the way.

Unfortunately, this meter is going back as it seems to suffer from a few quality issues.
-It hums. I bought this unit from an official dealer after being repaired and recalibrated and recertified by Keithley, as it was reported to suffer from the humming issue by a previous owner. Unfortunately it still produces a noticeable mains hum which can be heard across the bench, unlike various other meters and devices.
-The right side touch screen moves 0.5-1mm back and forth when touched. The left side seems attached as is to be expected.

- Other quirks I noticed are that the front terminal led indicator also seems to illuminate a small square section of the front panel through the plastic, sort of between the terminal selection switch and the socket above it. This is most visible with less ambient light.
- Finally the fan is isn't horrible loud, although it isn't exactly quiet either. But does it ever whine. It easily cuts through other ambient sounds. I don't think I've encountered a product with such a whiny fan in a long time.

This leaves me wondering whether Keithley pushed a bit too hard in their pursuit to bring the price down or the profit margin up. The actual device and its functionality are great, but there are a few details which let it down and which unfortunately go a long way in determining the liveability. I'm unsure whether it's an issue with quality control or with quality standards, but one of those is not what I'd expect it to be. What's your experience?

Congrats on the new meter, although that is unfortunate it has so many issues that shouldn't be there.  Hopefully you will be able to get the meter returned/replaced with little fuss.  Overall I've been fairly happy with my DMM6500.  Besides the dual V/I measurement fiasco, The only other problem I feel worth mentioning is the blue screens.  Although I honestly haven't had one of those in a long time. 

I came really close to selling the DMM6500 not too long ago, but decided to keep it in the end.  The DMM7510 is going up for sale soon though.  That one was only purchased for a specific project, and I've just been stalling/trying to convince myself that I need a 7.5 digit meter at home (I don't).
 

Offline E-Design

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1048 on: July 02, 2020, 02:09:01 am »
After beating around the bush for way too long I bit the bullet and bought one of these puppies. My decision was almost exclusively based on the excellent review by Shahriar of The Signal Path. I cannot stress enough how instrumental his reviews are to get a good understanding of these kinds of tools. Keithley, please send him all your stuff.

The functionality of the meter is amazing. I've been working my way through the various features and there are so many possibilities. The previous generation of meters was excellent in its own right but this really is a world apart. From the perspective of functionality it's an incredibly useful tool. I was curious how well the touch screen would actually work but it's perfectly fine and doesn't get in the way.

Unfortunately, this meter is going back as it seems to suffer from a few quality issues.
-It hums. I bought this unit from an official dealer after being repaired and recalibrated and recertified by Keithley, as it was reported to suffer from the humming issue by a previous owner. Unfortunately it still produces a noticeable mains hum which can be heard across the bench, unlike various other meters and devices.
-The right side touch screen moves 0.5-1mm back and forth when touched. The left side seems attached as is to be expected.

- Other quirks I noticed are that the front terminal led indicator also seems to illuminate a small square section of the front panel through the plastic, sort of between the terminal selection switch and the socket above it. This is most visible with less ambient light.
- Finally the fan is isn't horrible loud, although it isn't exactly quiet either. But does it ever whine. It easily cuts through other ambient sounds. I don't think I've encountered a product with such a whiny fan in a long time.

This leaves me wondering whether Keithley pushed a bit too hard in their pursuit to bring the price down or the profit margin up. The actual device and its functionality are great, but there are a few details which let it down and which unfortunately go a long way in determining the liveability. I'm unsure whether it's an issue with quality control or with quality standards, but one of those is not what I'd expect it to be. What's your experience?

Congrats on the new meter, although that is unfortunate it has so many issues that shouldn't be there.  Hopefully you will be able to get the meter returned/replaced with little fuss.  Overall I've been fairly happy with my DMM6500.  Besides the dual V/I measurement fiasco, The only other problem I feel worth mentioning is the blue screens.  Although I honestly haven't had one of those in a long time. 

I came really close to selling the DMM6500 not too long ago, but decided to keep it in the end.  The DMM7510 is going up for sale soon though.  That one was only purchased for a specific project, and I've just been stalling/trying to convince myself that I need a 7.5 digit meter at home (I don't).

All, it was never designed to support a power measurement. I know there are scripts, but the only clean way to do this is to have 2 simultaneous A/D conversions (one for I and one for V).
The hardware wasn't architect-ed to do this.

Every implementation tends to be a hack that have issues. We know its an important feature, but it never made the list of essential requirements.

Yes, I understand the frustrations with blue screens.. please try to find steps to reproduce and take a photo of the screen --then report it, I can have firmware engineers look at it - its the only way to solve these bugs.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 02:26:52 am by E-Design »
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Offline E-Design

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Re: New Keithley DMM6500 and now DAQ6510
« Reply #1049 on: July 02, 2020, 02:12:53 am »
Dear friend E-design.

 I must join the previous speakers and repeat the remark about a very noisy fan. It really poisons life.  :horse:

 I have a question or request. There are two scripts for measuring power. One was created by Keithley staff, and the second is written by Mike Green. Unfortunately, both programs have flaws and turn work into torment. This includes the need to restart the device, the impossibility of an operative stop and restart of the measurement, difficult access to the buffer, the lack of access to control the filter and the NPLC parameter .......

 If it is possible to take the best of both programs and remove the defects? The script could become a full and essential function.

 Thanks.

Sorry to hear about your fan noise.. everybody's experience and sensitivity to it is different. It is required to meet the 6.5 digit specs that presumably you needed in the instrument.

Its likely possible to improve your script, but I wouldn't be a suitable person to try it for you.


« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 02:21:42 am by E-Design »
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