New Keysight 3458A - in black

[balage]

Hi Guys,

Have you seen the black 3458A? https://www.htest.hu/keysight-3458a-new-version

It seems Keysight has renewed the super 3458A DMM. Black is a little weird...

But they have not added LAN connentivity. 

[Grandchuck]

I read the posts on the Metrology forum and it has been reported there that this meter is not a huge seller for Keysight.  The customers are folks in the semiconductor manufacturing industry and those with need of transfer standards.

I assume, therefore, that the GPIB interface is still appropriate.  Most customers are using legacy software and hardware?

[TiN]

And that's a photoshop image and not a real photo

[balage]

Yeah, I am the one who don't have to deal with the GPIB of a 3458A - because I don't have one.

@TiN: Which part is photoshopped? Displays always have fake characters. I bet you have this new one.

[Dr. Frank]

There's already been the 2018 AN: 'Calculating Uncertainty using Digital
Multimeter Ratio Measurement Techniques', containing pictures of this black, overhauled 3458A.

KS need RoHS compliant electronics, as the previously stocked EU market EU3458A may be depleted.. and also this >30 years old design now has probably many terminated components inside, so that it is becoming more and more difficult to make bodges, or the longterm stock for old components is also depleted, meanwhile.
So what we have heard end of May, that a transfer design was done on all PCBs, from through-hole to SMD technology, updating also many component types.
KS has no real development team anymore, so the schematic, software and so on is untouched.

The rerouted,  smaller PCBs should be backward compatible, so that new spare PCBs might also go into old instrument.

Hopefully, the new, tighter packed layout did not let the magic escape, that may be under investigation, being the reason why it's not been released, yet.

Frank

[pansku]

At least according to our distributor, the new unit is also cheaper. I'm still waiting on confirmation that he indeed meant the black model when he quoted 9k€ for "new RoHS compliant 3458A with extended memory". The old model EU3458A was around 10k€ and EU3458AX with high stability and extended memory was around 11,5k€.

[Zucca]

This thread will be quickly moved to the metrology section.

[balage]

KS has no real development team anymore, so the schematic, software and so on is untouched.

How do you mean that? They have released the UXR scope a few months ago. It must be their own development.

[merox]

KS has no real development team anymore, so the schematic, software and so on is untouched.

How do you mean that? They have released the UXR scope a few months ago. It must be their own development.

I think he just means that there is no dedicated team for the 3458A anymore (would be more than surprising after all those years).

[Dr. Frank]

Of course, their 3458A dev. team is gone..retired, gone to Keithley,  passed away..
The last engineers and PM from that era just designed the 34465/470 a few years ago..
Anyhow, in all these 30 years, nobody touched the magic design, apart from small things. If anybody documented the crucial design features, I don't believe..
The redesign obviously was done by an engineer/team who is aware of the RoHS requirements, probably somebody in EU.
Frank

[Kleinstein]

They probably could still do some changes to the digital part (e.g. use different memories) and maybe use a replacement for the old battery buffered memory. Changes to the analog part are tricky and may need a lot of new tests, even for relatively minor changes.

Of cause Keysight still has some development teams, but not so much in the precision DC range. Below some 1 ppm  some strange things start to become important. So it is different from more RF part needed for scopes and some of this is not regularly learned at the universities.

[dr.diesel]

If market demanded 8.5 digits in the late 80s for purpose X, wouldn't the need for greater precision still be growing 30 years later?  Are the semiconductor heavy weights simply building custom instruments these days?

No Intel skunkworks people read here to drop any hints?

[MadTux]

What happens to the magic U180 on that update?
As far as I know, that was always the part which made 3458A as good as it is. And it's the weak part, that kills them beyond repair.
So they redesign that chip or do they still have enough of them available? Or do they still make them on some kind of old fab line?

[Kleinstein]

I would expect them to still use the old style U180 special chip. Everything else would essentially be a new ADC design.
They may still produce new ones, possibly using old silicon dies.

If they were brave they may have changed some of the special comparators - but even this may be risky (possible need for new tweaks).
Different OPs at some point's could lead to slightly lower noise or lower power consumption.

Not all the 3458 were bought because of there accuracy. The 3458 was also one of the fastest at 6 digits. Here modern ones like the 34470 or DMM7510 could replace it.

[0culus]

If market demanded 8.5 digits in the late 80s for purpose X, wouldn't the need for greater precision still be growing 30 years later?  Are the semiconductor heavy weights simply building custom instruments these days?

No Intel skunkworks people read here to drop any hints?

Don't work for Intel or any competitors, but...

...AFAIK this is exactly what happens. Another example is logic analyzers. Only a select few industries still use them (DRAM manufacturers primarily, but also in the cybersecurity area) as modern integrated parts simply aren't compatible with that type of probing. Custom test rigs for sure. Or JTAG and boundary scan.

[edit] in fact, Tektronix announced discontinuation of their logic analyzer lineup earlier this year, recommending their MSOs as replacements (!)

[maxwell3e10]

Its surprising they didn't completely overhaul the digital section to add trend plots and other 33470 features. And what modern instrument doesn't include a USB memory stick port. They just added an RS232 port - so its upgraded from 1980s to ... 1990s.
Perhaps they are just not looking to increase sales numbers due to difficulty of sourcing some of the parts.

So much for hoping the price of used 3458A will drop somewhat, nobody will get this meter as an upgrade.

[Berni]

Ewww. Yeah it is ugly in black.

But yeah the fact that it has the same model number means there is no significant change under the hood. If there was it would have at least gotten a B on the end.

Id say they just compacted down the digital stuff and moved it onto new SMD parts. They often do this on old gear where they shove all the digital logic spaghetti into a CPLD/FPGA and reduce the whole CPU board down to just a few major chips. Resulting in a board that is under 1/2 the size, is easier and cheaper to produce but still runs the same firmware. I hope they figured out a way to get rid of those darn Dallas NV-RAM chips. I have already eliminated them in one HP 3458A by replacing them with FRAM memory and it works great now giving me a 100 year data retention time. I hope Keysight does something similar as a official thing.

[dom0]

I'd be funny if the black input connectors now have an input leakage problem.

[dacman]

U180 was replaced with a daughterboard 10 years ago or more.
A different type of memory was being used by Keysight or Agilent about 5 years ago.

[TheSteve]

U180 was replaced with a daughterboard 10 years ago or more.
A different type of memory was being used by Keysight or Agilent about 5 years ago.

I don't believe U180 has ever changed. Some other parts have changed on the A3 board though.

[egonotto]

Hello,

perhaps they are fans of AC/DC
https://youtu.be/pAgnJDJN4VA

Best regards
egonotto

[dacman]

A few years ago I bought a new A3 card from Keysight and where U180 normally is was a daughterboard that extended to the left.  I could tell there were parts under it to the left but it was mounted where U180 normally is (and I did not notice if U180 was still there and assumed it was not).  If U180 is still there it has a rider on it.

I've sent a couple of units to Keysight, in which they stated that U180 was replaced and mentioned something about A13, which I take as being the daughterboard.

[splin]

And what modern instrument doesn't include a USB memory stick port.

Who the hell uses USB memory sticks these days? Weren't they a late 90's, early naughties thing? 

[Zucca]

yesterday I was at the Produtronica 2019 here in Munich



As I told already in the TEA thread:

Do you really (I mean really?) think I just looked at it without asking?

1) They need to hunt for retired Keys... ehm HP eng. to design the black version. That thing is a glorious masterpiece like the SR-71, and you need eng with serious balls to design it. Not everyone can do it.
Amazing.
2) Keysight already tried to design in the past one with a touch screen (no VFD) and "Apple Steve Jobs" feeling for the users. It did not went good they needed to stop the project.
I think bd139 would say "they fell flat on their arse".
3) They can change the color but not the name. If they do all the certifications (i.e. for military) need to be re-done as well, a lot of papers and a pain in the ass for them and the customers.
By keeping the same name they can sell the unit immediately.
4) If took so long to find the Rohs components that when they decided to use some rohs parts were already obsolete. Back to square one.
5) No it is not the biggest project at Keysight, UXR1102A is the winner. This 8,5 puppy is an easy lego game compared to the 110GHz scope.
6) Now they are still trying the 2), go go Keysight you can do it!



One day I will have it on my bench.

[tszaboo]

I doubt anything was changed on the inside. The GPIB connection doesnt matter, you just buy a E5810B and use it, the price is negligible.
I found it more interesting years ago, that their own software had trouble with the meter. It was  because all their new instruments supported some "ID? "or something like that command, and this one didn't so it couldn't discover the meter.
Anyway, the color doesnt really matter. It's like when you get a very nice company car, but you dont like the color. You just get used to it, and be like: I'm going to measure microvolt differences, something that few other meters can, with this black meter.

[Kleinstein]

I think is does not makes much sense to do larger changes to the 3458 than just the replacement of obsolete parts and may be some changes is cases to make it easier to produce. Many users want the backwards compatibility - so being close to the original is a big plus.  In some areas the available parts have changed a lot (e.g. much better CMOS switches, better integrated ADCs) and a modern DMM would thus be different quite a bit. So it's either those more cosmetic changes or an essentially new design. I don't think the new black edition would be good for another 30 years.

[MiDi]

There are lots of changes inside.
We had a very interesting talk @Maker Faire with PTB about this and they know what they are talking about.

Edit: link corrected

[TiN]

I would hold on to golden aged 3458As and wait to see if new black design/refresh units are any good. We are spoiled by aged well-cared 3458A performance , that expectations are much higher that just same never updated specifications from 1989. Even something like replacing few parts from obsoleted stock to new RoHS parts could cause issues and worse performance.

We could do some guesswork bit more once photos of internal guts are revealed. Or Keysight could team up and send few random units to some voltnuts or researchers to do a public comparison tests. Chances of that happening? I expect zero, very niche meter this is, and customers who buying these don't need reviews on some blog anyway

[iMo]

TiN and all the voltnuts who glorify the old 3548A are the precision DMM's progress inhibitors actually. The DMM metrology grade industry assumes TiN and all volnuts are happy with the existing 3458A base and they are not motivated to develop something new 

[Kleinstein]

The market for the metrology grade DMMs is small. There are actually 2 new Fluke meters that may do the job.
With instruments  already that good, one can not expect large improvement. So even if a new, really good one comes out, a lot of labs would still stick to there old meters - at least as long as the old ones are still running. A meter with a well documented history gets more valuable with time.  A new type would also need to earn it's reputation over time. At this level even coming from Fluke or Keysight is not a guarantee for good long time stability. Time will tell (in some 3-5 years) how good the new Fluke ones and the black edition actually are.

[floobydust]

TiN and all the voltnuts who glorify the old 3548A are the precision DMM's progress inhibitors actually. The DMM metrology grade industry assumes TiN and all volnuts are happy with the existing 3458A base and they are not motivated to develop something new 

Progress in electronics is all about lowering cost, reducing size and speeding up design cycles etc. - any of which are enemies to metrology.
You need gold and lead, you need big ugly through-hole parts with less physical/electrical/thermal stress and fine dielectrics, ceramic substrates, you need JFETS galore, and long term testing. TO-99 forever!

I would say analog electronics at this level has deteriorated. The old guard has died off and fresh engineers who think plopping in SMT op-amps is going to be a piece of cake here, are in for a colossal waste of time. Even the RoHS-driven metallurgy changes alone, are a science in and of itself that few people in the world would have expertise in.

"new" would be funny as Keysight will never match or beat the old design. The old dogs here know and I know because the 3458A was a massive R&D expense, like landing on the moon.

[NoisyBoy]

It is official in the U.S., just got this from Keysight today:


The 3458A has been the standard 8.5 digit DMM for over 30 years, with leading-edge DCV linearity accuracy and lowest internal noise performance.

The refreshed Keysight 3458A is RoHS compliant, has a new industrial design, includes extended memory as standard, and is 100% code compatible with legacy versions. You will continue to enjoy the superior stability and accuracy that this product is known for, whether you use it for precision measurements with the highest degree of accuracy, as a transfer standard for instrument calibration, or for high throughput DMM measurements in manufacturing.

It is nice to see them updating the benchmark, the $10,987 price tag is reasonable considering how much old ones fetch in the used market.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

A few comments

Even the RoHS-driven metallurgy changes alone, are a science in and of itself that few people in the world would have expertise in.

"new" would be funny as Keysight will never match or beat the old design. The old dogs here know and I know because the 3458A was a massive R&D expense, like landing on the moon.

Yes, it was definitely a challenge to get the new design out, we basically didn't ever update the 3458A design because it worked! And it was an absolutely massive project like you say - it took many, many, many years to get out the door (so I've been told). Like, maybe the longest R&D project we've had as a company, easily top 5-10.

There are lots of changes inside.
We had a very interesting talk @Maker Faire with PTB about this and they know what they are talking about.

Yup, pretty significant overhaul.

We could do some guesswork bit more once photos of internal guts are revealed. Or Keysight could team up and send few random units to some voltnuts or researchers to do a public comparison tests. Chances of that happening? I expect zero, very niche meter this is, and customers who buying these don't need reviews on some blog anyway

Challenge accepted. 

[0culus]

You could send one to me for uhhh, "review"... 

[kj7e]

We could do some guesswork bit more once photos of internal guts are revealed. Or Keysight could team up and send few random units to some voltnuts or researchers to do a public comparison tests. Chances of that happening? I expect zero, very niche meter this is, and customers who buying these don't need reviews on some blog anyway

Challenge accepted. 

Yes, please send one to TiN for a review!

[Zucca]

Yes, please send one to TiN for a review!

#sendittoTIN

+1

[coromonadalix]

#sendittoTIN

+1

[NoisyBoy]

Great call Daniel,

With its venerable reputation, there is always skepticism when changes are made.  If I were in the market for one, my intention would be to go with a new unit with a couple options rather than buying used and inheriting someone else's issues and no warranty.  And that is unless the new design is inferior to the old models, which I hope would not be the case.  Such a comparison would be invaluable to people who share my feeling, as well as labs who are ready to retire the fully depreciated 3458A workhorses and upgrade to the new version.

The only change I wish Keysight had made was to do away with the old VFD display and update it to one without burn-in issues.  For equipment that are left on pretty much permanently, the VFDs are killers.  While it was good 30 years ago, there are so many new technology that are more durable and easier to read, even if it does not provide any additional information.

A few comments

Even the RoHS-driven metallurgy changes alone, are a science in and of itself that few people in the world would have expertise in.

"new" would be funny as Keysight will never match or beat the old design. The old dogs here know and I know because the 3458A was a massive R&D expense, like landing on the moon.

Yes, it was definitely a challenge to get the new design out, we basically didn't ever update the 3458A design because it worked! And it was an absolutely massive project like you say - it took many, many, many years to get out the door (so I've been told). Like, maybe the longest R&D project we've had as a company, easily top 5-10.

There are lots of changes inside.
We had a very interesting talk @Maker Faire with PTB about this and they know what they are talking about.

Yup, pretty significant overhaul.

We could do some guesswork bit more once photos of internal guts are revealed. Or Keysight could team up and send few random units to some voltnuts or researchers to do a public comparison tests. Chances of that happening? I expect zero, very niche meter this is, and customers who buying these don't need reviews on some blog anyway

Challenge accepted. 

[IanJ]

There can only be one.........anybody else in terms of metrology will just comment on it's pretty colour.

#sendittoTIN

+1

Ian.

[IanJ]

The only change I wish Keysight had made was to do away with the old VFD display and update it to one without burn-in issues.  For equipment that are left on pretty much permanently, the VFDs are killers.  While it was good 30 years ago, there are so many new technology that are more durable and easier to read, even if it does not provide any additional information.

I agree, but kinda dissagree also!........my 3458A is 20yrs old next year, and yes it's dimming and burning in a little but it isn't bad. For it's 20th birthday it's going to get a new VFD next year.......:-)

Ian.

[MiDi]

The only change I wish Keysight had made was to do away with the old VFD display and update it to one without burn-in issues.  For equipment that are left on pretty much permanently, the VFDs are killers.  While it was good 30 years ago, there are so many new technology that are more durable and easier to read, even if it does not provide any additional information.

I agree, but kinda dissagree also!........my 3458A is 20yrs old next year, and yes it's dimming and burning in a little but it isn't bad. For it's 20th birthday it's going to get a new VFD next year.......:-)

Ian.

Best age as a classic car or Youngtimer - as we call it in Germany 
Mine is becoming a modern classic (Oldtimer) and far a thing from the past.
Received it in nearly factory condition including original equipped nvram with healthy calram.
Men, it was build when I was a innocent 10 year old boy.
Around the time where east & west united and end of cold war...

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

The people have spoken! I'm working on the #sendittoTIN angle

[NoisyBoy]

Daniel, that’s excellent news, can’t wait to see the comparison.  Thanks for your constant support for the community, it makes me feel good as a Keysight shareholder and long time Keysight/Agilent equipment owner.

[EE-digger]

Hate is a strong word but I hate black instruments.  Part of it may be my aging eyesight but the greater part is the lighting required to see nomenclature adequately.

I hate the LeCroy 3054's at work for that reason (and MANY others).  I carry my Keysight (in its cool looking black bag).

Black is very cool looking but then some smart people add either grey text or purple text (i.e. Sony Vaio and other keyboard 2nd and special functions).  Then you need sunlight to see it well      I do have a shiny black car and love it !

[Berni]

But hey at least they didn't go for the old "Keithley brown" color.

[TiN]

Perhaps Keysight could offer white-color front panel for older engineers in large business customers  Benefits of full compatibility between old and new meter. 

The people have spoken! I'm working on the #sendittoTIN angle

EEVBlog folk will get me into trouble. I guess season for test suggestions and wishes is open. I'd do usual comparison suite, like noise performance, stability vs external LTZ/732 references, ACAL performance and INL tests. ACV tests would be also interesting, as it is yet another underestimated part where 3458A really shines.

[Berni]

Perhaps Keysight could offer white-color front panel for older engineers in large business customers  Benefits of full compatibility between old and new meter. 

Hmm they have been boasting how its all still compatible with old SCIPI scripts, but they never said anything about being compatible with old engineers. Clearly Keysight has some room for improving compatibility of this new instrument

[TiN]

3458A does not support SCPI. At least old one. I'd expect new one is same in this regard?

[Berni]

Sorry i meant to say GPIB 

I got into a bad habit of calling test gear automation SCPI since modern stuff uses all sorts of interfaces (Serial,USB,LAN...) for remote control but all talk SCPI over those. So i subconsciously threw GPIB in the same bucket even tho old gear does not talk according to the SCPI standard (Like the 3458A).

[2N3055]

... ACV tests would be also interesting, as it is yet another underestimated part where 3458A really shines.

That is very good point. It would be interesting to see.

Off topic, but it would be also interesting to see comparison of 34465A (or any other TrueVolt, sampling type AC RMS ) meters compared to older generations with RMS converter chip, especially for linearity around zero...

[Micke]

Joe Geller did such a test with 34410A which was the first "TrueVolt" AC sampling type DMM (besides 3458A of course...)
Really good result!
https://www.pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/15_Mfrs_Publications/20_HP_Agilent/1_HP_3400B_20MHZ_True_RMS/Geller%20Labs/34401A%20AC%20zero.pdf

[JxR]

But hey at least they didn't go for the old "Keithley brown" color.

The Keithley doo-doo brown has kind of grew on me.  Makes me feel I should put up some orange 70s wallpaper in the lab.

The new Keysight meter would certainly not look out of place on the Death Star, so they have that going for them.

[TiN]

Santa is very kind for me this year.
He got me just enough gear now to test that mighty Keysight 3458A Black 



Few more bits like 5725A booster, AC/DC transfer standard, Fluke 752A reference divider and so on did not fit on the table. 

[0culus]

Geez, good thing that table is as massive as the boat anchorage that's on it.  Neat pic, you should share in TEA. 

[coromonadalix]

you'll ruin everything with a black meter  lolll

[NoisyBoy]

Now, that’s a dining room I would love to have!  Reminds me of the single days.

Can’t wait to see the result.

[maxwell3e10]

You need a good security system! That's >$100k of equipment behind a patio door.

[BravoV]

You need a good security system! That's >$100k of equipment behind a patio door.

+1 , thats the 1st thing pop out in my mind when I saw that photo.

[Dr. Frank]

So you got new equipment,  more equipment, and even a brand new country to host your stuff.
Already wondered, why you've packed everything into containers.
Curious what you are doing now.
Illya, Good luck to you, anyhow.
Frank

[TiN]

You need a good security system! That's >$100k of equipment behind a patio door.

And expensive insurance. It's just temporary photo for holiday purposes.
Everything will be tucked away in the bunker in next few days, need to finish the proper bench first. 

[Zucca]

I let the TEA crazy army know about this:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg2835922/#msg2835922

[VK5RC]

A belated +1 for the TiN review 'sample'

It will be interesting to see keysight's decisions re baseline temperature for the reference and the hundreds of other potentially conflicting decisions that go into such a complex instrument.

[mimmus78]

#sendittoTIN

+1

[TiN]

I guess #sendittoTiN is official now.
Large Keysight box showed up today.

[jklasdf]

Are you allowed to open it?

[NoisyBoy]

Can’t wait to see some new vs. old comparisons.  I hope it will meet and exceed the heritage units out there.

And thanks Daniel for making it happen.

[Zucca]

Thanks Daniel for making it happen, and thanks TiN.
Awesome.

[VK5RC]

Congrats TiN, K-S and Daniel! 
Has it been "run in' do you think, see how it changes over the first few days to weeks of use. 

[Martin.M]

Santa is very kind for me this year.
He got me just enough gear now to test that mighty Keysight 3458A Black 



Few more bits like 5725A booster, AC/DC transfer standard, Fluke 752A reference divider and so on did not fit on the table. 

I think you are in need of some lab carts for the inatruments, that table is more compatible to a bunch of 427A

Martin

[NoisyBoy]

Hey TiN,

Is there any observations on new vs. old when it comes to performance and accuracy?

[vaualbus]

Any new on the photos or more general on the unit?

[coromonadalix]

I hope they have modernised the cpu interface / memory  to someting workable and repairable     IE: no unobtanium parts