Author Topic: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017  (Read 162299 times)

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Offline nfmax

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #125 on: January 31, 2017, 11:20:23 am »
No. For many measurements you'll want to capture just one event. Like a UART message or certain signal. Usually this means pressing buttons on a generator, closing a switch, clicking a button in a GUI, etc. Having to also press a button on the oscilloscope to arm it just wastes time and adds extra room for error (or annoyance when putting the probe onto the test point also produces a trigger and you need to re-arm the scope once more). If you can let the oscilloscope stay in continuous trigger mode instead of single the scope does what it should do without needing manual arming and thus save time and work more comfortably.

But in that case you STILL have to reach up to the scope and press the STOP button!
What's the difference between pressing the STOP button and the SINGLE button when your signal is re-triggering all the time?
Your argument seems to be almost entirely without merit.
What this situation does call for is a way of trivially easily automating the sequence of button pushes on the UUT & instruments to make the measurement. This level of 'disposable' automation is woefully lacking in current implementations of instrument control (which seem to be all about manufacturing test).
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #126 on: January 31, 2017, 11:22:21 am »
No. For many measurements you'll want to capture just one event. Like a UART message or certain signal. Usually this means pressing buttons on a generator, closing a switch, clicking a button in a GUI, etc. Having to also press a button on the oscilloscope to arm it just wastes time and adds extra room for error (or annoyance when putting the probe onto the test point also produces a trigger and you need to re-arm the scope once more).

Wait, I think I see the problem.

No wonder it annoys you if you try to poke a probe into the device after you press the "single" button on the scope. That would annoy anybody.

The sensible approach is:
a) Connect the probe to the DUT
b) Press the "single" button on the scope
c) Press buttons on the generator, close the switch, clicking the button in a GUI, etc. to start the transmission.
 

Offline nfmax

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #127 on: January 31, 2017, 11:26:19 am »
"Alexa, tell Scope to arm trigger"  :)
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #128 on: January 31, 2017, 11:30:25 am »
What this situation does call for is a way of trivially easily automating the sequence of button pushes on the UUT & instruments to make the measurement. This level of 'disposable' automation is woefully lacking in current implementations of instrument control (which seem to be all about manufacturing test).

I'm not sure what you're imagining but most oscilloscopes/etc. can be controlled by sending ASCII text to them.

This means any scripting language can control devices, or you can use something like Matlab.

(and if you want to use a simple electrical impulse to start recording then one of the BNC connectors on the front will do that).
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 11:33:22 am by Fungus »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #129 on: January 31, 2017, 11:45:17 am »
No. For many measurements you'll want to capture just one event. Like a UART message or certain signal. Usually this means pressing buttons on a generator, closing a switch, clicking a button in a GUI, etc. Having to also press a button on the oscilloscope to arm it just wastes time and adds extra room for error (or annoyance when putting the probe onto the test point also produces a trigger and you need to re-arm the scope once more). If you can let the oscilloscope stay in continuous trigger mode instead of single the scope does what it should do without needing manual arming and thus save time and work more comfortably.
But in that case you STILL have to reach up to the scope and press the STOP button!
No, because in case of a single event there will be nothing else to trigger on so pressing any buttons is not needed. On a decent DSO you can scroll/zoom in whatever you like without needing to press stop first.

edit: An example: sometimes I have to test/adjust a product which produces a signal which lasts for several seconds. The oscilloscope is triggered by a 'start of test' signal. Having to press the 'single' button is an unnecessary step but on my DSO7104A I have to do it because otherwise the memory isn't deep enough to get all of the signal with enough detail. Well guess which scope didn't got used on the last batch!
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 12:20:16 pm by nctnico »
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Offline RGB255_0_0

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #130 on: January 31, 2017, 12:02:30 pm »
"Alexa, tell Scope to arm trigger"  :)
In that case Keysight already have a scope out to do just that. Happy days nctnico  :-DD
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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #131 on: January 31, 2017, 01:12:46 pm »
No. For many measurements you'll want to capture just one event. Like a UART message or certain signal. Usually this means pressing buttons on a generator, closing a switch, clicking a button in a GUI, etc. Having to also press a button on the oscilloscope to arm it just wastes time and adds extra room for error (or annoyance when putting the probe onto the test point also produces a trigger and you need to re-arm the scope once more). If you can let the oscilloscope stay in continuous trigger mode instead of single the scope does what it should do without needing manual arming and thus save time and work more comfortably.
But in that case you STILL have to reach up to the scope and press the STOP button!
No, because in case of a single event there will be nothing else to trigger on so pressing any buttons is not needed.

 :palm:
That's called setting your scope up to single shot trigger in the first place.
You said this and I'll repeat it:
If you can let the oscilloscope stay in continuous trigger mode instead of single the scope does what it should do without needing manual arming and thus save time and work more comfortably.

Continuous trigger mode is either using Normal trigger mode or auto trigger mode.
Auto trigger mode will continuously trigger as you said, in which case you have to reach up to press STOP anyway, so you might as well press SINGLE instead and it will automatically trigger!
If you are talking normal trigger mode then that's NOT the "continuous trigger you speak of, and it's something you have to set up before hand to capture those events, so you might as well single shot capture.

Quote
edit: An example: sometimes I have to test/adjust a product which produces a signal which lasts for several seconds. The oscilloscope is triggered by a 'start of test' signal. Having to press the 'single' button is an unnecessary step but on my DSO7104A I have to do it because otherwise the memory isn't deep enough to get all of the signal with enough detail. Well guess which scope didn't got used on the last batch!

 :palm:
If you are trying to capture an event that you want detail of then you set up the scope to trigger from that "start of test signal" and you capture the signal at the optimum timebase to get the best resolution. This applies to any scope.
The only time your argument makes sense is if you are using say a USB scope with infinite recording memory and you just hit STOP whenever you feel like it and then scroll back through the infinite record until you find your signal.

Sorry, but you argument still does not stand up.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #132 on: January 31, 2017, 01:56:53 pm »
No. For many measurements you'll want to capture just one event. Like a UART message or certain signal. Usually this means pressing buttons on a generator, closing a switch, clicking a button in a GUI, etc. Having to also press a button on the oscilloscope to arm it just wastes time and adds extra room for error (or annoyance when putting the probe onto the test point also produces a trigger and you need to re-arm the scope once more). If you can let the oscilloscope stay in continuous trigger mode instead of single the scope does what it should do without needing manual arming and thus save time and work more comfortably.
But in that case you STILL have to reach up to the scope and press the STOP button!
No, because in case of a single event there will be nothing else to trigger on so pressing any buttons is not needed.

 :palm:
That's called setting your scope up to single shot trigger in the first place.
You said this and I'll repeat it:
If you can let the oscilloscope stay in continuous trigger mode instead of single the scope does what it should do without needing manual arming and thus save time and work more comfortably.

Continuous trigger mode is either using Normal trigger mode or auto trigger mode.
Auto trigger mode will continuously trigger as you said, in which case you have to reach up to press STOP anyway, so you might as well press SINGLE instead and it will automatically trigger!
If you are talking normal trigger mode then that's NOT the "continuous trigger you speak of, and it's something you have to set up before hand to capture those events, so you might as well single shot capture.

Quote
edit: An example: sometimes I have to test/adjust a product which produces a signal which lasts for several seconds. The oscilloscope is triggered by a 'start of test' signal. Having to press the 'single' button is an unnecessary step but on my DSO7104A I have to do it because otherwise the memory isn't deep enough to get all of the signal with enough detail. Well guess which scope didn't got used on the last batch!

 :palm:
If you are trying to capture an event that you want detail of then you set up the scope to trigger from that "start of test signal" and you capture the signal at the optimum timebase to get the best resolution. This applies to any scope.
The only time your argument makes sense is if you are using say a USB scope with infinite recording memory and you just hit STOP whenever you feel like it and then scroll back through the infinite record until you find your signal.

Sorry, but you argument still does not stand up.

There is definmitely a use case for repeated-single type operation to maximise memory, without having to press any scope buttons:

Waveform produced on demand from another system (e.g. press a key on the PC to send a data packet) , where you're zoomed in on a point a long way after the trigger, and are viewing both the "overview" and the zoomed-in part at the same time, so you need the maximum memory, but don't want to have to keep pressing "single" every time.
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Online nctnico

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #133 on: January 31, 2017, 02:01:46 pm »
If you are trying to capture an event that you want detail of then you set up the scope to trigger from that "start of test signal" and you capture the signal at the optimum timebase to get the best resolution. This applies to any scope.
The only time your argument makes sense is if you are using say a USB scope with infinite recording memory and you just hit STOP whenever you feel like it and then scroll back through the infinite record until you find your signal.
I am triggering at the start of the test signal! Just not on the signal itself but the signal which is 1ms ahead of it which on a timebase of 200ms/s is not a significant delay. Please read the example again and you'll understand that having to press an extra button over and over again during adjustment to get the full memory depth on a scope just isn't helpfull. What you seem to miss is that you don't need single shot mode to capture a single event! Just leave the scope in normal mode and make sure there are no more triggers.
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Offline nfmax

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #134 on: January 31, 2017, 02:09:30 pm »
If you are trying to capture an event that you want detail of then you set up the scope to trigger from that "start of test signal" and you capture the signal at the optimum timebase to get the best resolution. This applies to any scope.
The only time your argument makes sense is if you are using say a USB scope with infinite recording memory and you just hit STOP whenever you feel like it and then scroll back through the infinite record until you find your signal.
I am triggering at the start of the test signal! Just not on the signal itself but the signal which is 1ms ahead of it which on a timebase of 200ms/s is not a significant delay. Please read the example again and you'll understand that having to press an extra button over and over again during adjustment to get the full memory depth on a scope just isn't helpfull. What you seem to miss is that you don't need single shot mode to capture a single event! Just leave the scope in normal mode and make sure there are no more triggers.
OK, I see what you mean about the need to press the button every time. Do you need to look at the whole signal from the time of trigger to the point of interest - i.e. do you need to scroll through it every time? If not, you could always set a trigger delay: generally, this can be longer than the captured record, though it depends on the exact model of scope and the timebase setting.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #135 on: January 31, 2017, 02:17:53 pm »
I'd like to see the entire signal every time just to check for any anomalies which may point to a manufacturing defect. Also a single capture allows to check the levels of all test waveforms in one go.
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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #136 on: January 31, 2017, 02:22:01 pm »
There is definmitely a use case for repeated-single type operation to maximise memory, without having to press any scope buttons:

Waveform produced on demand from another system (e.g. press a key on the PC to send a data packet) , where you're zoomed in on a point a long way after the trigger, and are viewing both the "overview" and the zoomed-in part at the same time, so you need the maximum memory, but don't want to have to keep pressing "single" every time.

Sure, it's called a normal mode triggering.
Does the Keysight lose half the memory in Normal mode, or is it only Auto mode?
In either case it's not like it's 1/10th the memory or something, it's only half (and that gives a great performance tradeoff), and there is a way to use it all if needed.
If you know this and are concerned about it then you'd consider this spec when buying your scope. Or put a sticker of the front of the unit that say 2Mpoint instead of 4Mpoint to remind yourself.

nctnico is making a huge deal out of something that isn't.
Not having enough memory for a particular niche requirement of timebase etc is also called Murphy's Law.
 

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #137 on: January 31, 2017, 02:26:29 pm »
I am triggering at the start of the test signal! Just not on the signal itself but the signal which is 1ms ahead of it which on a timebase of 200ms/s is not a significant delay.

Then just use a delayed trigger, that's what it's for!
If you are going to argue that it could be random time period etc so you are forced to do it without delayed triggering, then no amount of memory is going to beat Murphy's law.
You are :horse: a niche requirement.

It's not like the Keysight scope is just stupid and loses half it's memory for nothing, it's a deliberate tradeoff that gives you big advantages in everyday use, not just some niche trigger scenario. It why as you said before, most scopes do it.
 

Offline nfmax

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #138 on: January 31, 2017, 02:28:49 pm »
I'd like to see the entire signal every time just to check for any anomalies which may point to a manufacturing defect. Also a single capture allows to check the levels of all test waveforms in one go.
OK so it looks like you will be adjusting the scope controls after every capture anyway. Presumably you have control over the test signal so you don't get taken by surprise by an unexpected trigger while you are in the middle of zooming & panning about. What might be handy in that case is a scope function that let you use the external trigger input as an 'arm' input for single-shot capture, but I don't off hand know of any scopes that let you do this. Otherwise, yes, you really do need a very long capture memory buffer, and no, you really don't care much about waveform update rate!

I might suggest an entry level scope like the 1000X series is not what you want...
 

Online nctnico

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #139 on: January 31, 2017, 02:34:31 pm »
It's not like the Keysight scope is just stupid and loses half it's memory for nothing, it's a deliberate tradeoff that gives you big advantages in everyday use, not just some niche trigger scenario. It why as you said before, most scopes do it.
You have misread. Most scopes have DOUBLE the memory fitted so they can provide the memory depth it says on the badge even when using double buffering. Some share the memory over the channels but Keysight is among the worst because you only get 1/4 of the memory (or less if you enable digital channels and reference traces) with all channels enabled in non-single shot mode. Please read the manual of a relative modern Keysight scope and see for yourself. You have to dig really deep in the menus for the scope to show the actual memory depth; it is well hidden.
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Offline nfmax

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #140 on: January 31, 2017, 02:44:15 pm »
Presumably the 1000X series, which are only two-channel scopes, do not have the split of memory between two channels of a linked pair. It's not clear what happens when you are using the trigger input as channel '2 1/2', but it might cost you memory: turning on reference waveforms will also cost you memory, as will using segments.

It sounds like your beef is more with labelling the memory size based on the maximum capture record length. Labelling based on the minimum might be evn more misleading though, as it would have to take into account you might have 50 segments, and reference waveforms on, as well as being in run mode. That would be less than 50,000 points!
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #141 on: January 31, 2017, 04:15:35 pm »
I am triggering at the start of the test signal! Just not on the signal itself but the signal which is 1ms ahead of it which on a timebase of 200ms/s is not a significant delay.

Then just use a delayed trigger, that's what it's for!
If you are going to argue that it could be random time period etc so you are forced to do it without delayed triggering, then no amount of memory is going to beat Murphy's law.
You are :horse: a niche requirement.

It's not like the Keysight scope is just stupid and loses half it's memory for nothing, it's a deliberate tradeoff that gives you big advantages in everyday use, not just some niche trigger scenario. It why as you said before, most scopes do it.
True but it would be trivial for them to add a function to maximuse memory when needed, and the erare times it really is needed, and pressing Single every time is a pain - e.g. you're manually sending packets, maybe a couple a second,  and watching for the one that causes a problem.
 Literally the equivalent of pressing "single" after each trigger is all that would be needed.
 
 
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Offline eeviking

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #142 on: January 31, 2017, 04:58:21 pm »
Is the bode plot function useful for audio stuff or is it just a gimmick?
Any other cheap scopes that have this?
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #143 on: January 31, 2017, 05:00:09 pm »
Literally the equivalent of pressing "single" after each trigger is all that would be needed.

That sounds exactly like "Normal" trigger mode (on my DS1054Z) to me. I'd be very surprised if other DSOs don't do it.

Normal: After this mode is selected, the oscilloscope enters the wait-for-trigger state and starts searching for trigger signals that meet the specified condition. If trigger signals that meets the specified condition are found, “T’D” is displayed in the running status bar and stable waveform is displayed. Otherwise, “WAIT” is displayed and the waveform of the last trigger is displayed.



 

Offline Fgrir

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #144 on: January 31, 2017, 05:25:38 pm »
Literally the equivalent of pressing "single" after each trigger is all that would be needed.

That sounds exactly like "Normal" trigger mode (on my DS1054Z) to me. I'd be very surprised if other DSOs don't do it.


It is normal mode, but he is wanting a normal mode that uses the full memory length of the scope at the expense of the fast retriggering capability gained from double-buffering.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #145 on: January 31, 2017, 05:41:11 pm »
Literally the equivalent of pressing "single" after each trigger is all that would be needed.
That sounds exactly like "Normal" trigger mode (on my DS1054Z) to me. I'd be very surprised if other DSOs don't do it.
It is normal mode, but he is wanting a normal mode that uses the full memory length of the scope at the expense of the fast retriggering capability gained from double-buffering.
Again: most (all) other DSOs have double buffering without sacrificing half the memory depth so there is no issue needing single mode to get the full memory length. THAT is the big difference!
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Offline JPortici

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #146 on: January 31, 2017, 06:04:57 pm »
Is the bode plot function useful for audio stuff or is it just a gimmick?
Any other cheap scopes that have this?
not that i know of, not at 20 MHz at least. i'd use it as a cheap-o VNA, to test components/closed loop frequency responce
 

Offline voltsandjolts

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #147 on: January 31, 2017, 06:53:34 pm »
Is the bode plot function useful for audio stuff or is it just a gimmick?
Any other cheap scopes that have this?

Digilent Analog Discovery (10MHz BW Bode)
 

Offline nfmax

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #148 on: January 31, 2017, 07:29:53 pm »
Literally the equivalent of pressing "single" after each trigger is all that would be needed.
That sounds exactly like "Normal" trigger mode (on my DS1054Z) to me. I'd be very surprised if other DSOs don't do it.
It is normal mode, but he is wanting a normal mode that uses the full memory length of the scope at the expense of the fast retriggering capability gained from double-buffering.
Again: most (all) other DSOs have double buffering without sacrificing half the memory depth so there is no issue needing single mode to get the full memory length. THAT is the big difference!

If you are going to double buffer, you have to have twice as much memory as is in a buffer - the clue is in the name. The Keysight scope lets you turn off double buffering, to recover the other half of the memory, but only in single shot mode. It would presumably be possiblefor it also to have another, different repetitive, normal trigger mode that didn't use double buffering, to give you twice the depth but at a much slower waveform update rate. That would suit your application. Others: not so much. Or use a higher spec scope that just has more memory. The S series go to 800M points, I think.
 

Offline Neganur

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #149 on: January 31, 2017, 07:34:22 pm »
The Analog Discovery 2 is actually pretty nice for 10MHz bode plotting and has 2x 14 bit 100MSa/s ADCs and DACs (but only up to 16KSa memory since the resource is shared). It can also show the plot in Nichols and Nyquist format directly.

The AWB gen in the InfiniiVision is IIRC 10bit 100 MSa/s and I guess the scope can oversample to get more than 8 bit amplitude resolution in the Bode plot applet. Either way, it's a really useful little thing to have in the scope at the push of a button.

The attachment is a Bode plot of an LC circuit that I swept with the Analog Discovery 2.
 
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