Author Topic: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017  (Read 156000 times)

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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #475 on: March 01, 2017, 07:13:02 pm »
I agree with Mike. Nowadays protocol decoding should be standard on an oscilloscope.

Yes. And they should all be sold at the 50MHz price tag, but with 100 MHz enabled.  ;)

My point was simply that nowadays, anyone who needs a scope, will almost certainly need serial decode ( at least UART, SPI and I2C), so it shouldn't be considered optional. Just like reasonable memory size, intensity display/high update rate.


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Offline 1Ghz

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #476 on: March 01, 2017, 07:21:09 pm »
Here's Service Guide: http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/54612-97012.pdf

No replaceable parts, no instructions. Unit replacement only.   :-\
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #477 on: March 01, 2017, 07:26:40 pm »
Here's Service Guide: http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/54612-97012.pdf
No replaceable parts, no instructions. Unit replacement only.   :-\

And they need 60 pages to explain that?!   :P
 

Offline Neganur

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #478 on: March 01, 2017, 07:35:13 pm »
Uh, skimming through the service manual I just noticed there's a 500 uV/DIV range? I missed that. Although it also says 8mV is considered full scale in that vertical setting (so just a digital zoom?)
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #479 on: March 01, 2017, 08:06:34 pm »
if you read the user manual, yes the 500 uv/div is software zoom + forced 20 MHz bw limit
 

Online tautech

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #480 on: March 01, 2017, 08:11:00 pm »
if you read the user manual, yes the 500 uv/div is software zoom + forced 20 MHz bw limit
Unlike the SDS1kX series that has a true 500uV/div range @ full BW.
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Offline Keysight DanielBogdanoff

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #481 on: March 02, 2017, 04:46:28 am »
A BW limit at the lowest V/div setting is not uncommon for this level of scope, but a lot of vendors don't like to talk about it. We go to 1 mV/div in hardware.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #482 on: March 02, 2017, 05:39:04 am »
@ Keysight_DanielBogdanoff

I repeat my question:

What is truth about 1000 X series segmented memory acquisition function?

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1965EN.pdf?id=2832547

In data sheet text (page 3.):

Quote
Up to 50 segments can be captured on the 1000 X-Series models with a
minimum re-arm time of less than 19 us.



In data sheet specifications list (page 17.):

Quote
Maximum segments = 50.
Re-arm time = 1 us (minimum time between
trigger events)


If 1us is true, Keysight 1000X series maximum segments/s speed is 1Msegment/s.  Is it true?
Only max 50 segments, are there k missing or is it really only 50 segments?
Segment time stamps?
Single segment length, what give this high 1Msegment/s speed?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 05:43:52 am by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline kwass

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #483 on: March 02, 2017, 06:09:21 am »
@ Keysight_DanielBogdanoff

I repeat my question:

What is truth about 1000 X series segmented memory acquisition function?

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1965EN.pdf?id=2832547

In data sheet text (page 3.):

Quote
Up to 50 segments can be captured on the 1000 X-Series models with a
minimum re-arm time of less than 19 us.



In data sheet specifications list (page 17.):

Quote
Maximum segments = 50.
Re-arm time = 1 us (minimum time between
trigger events)


If 1us is true, Keysight 1000X series maximum segments/s speed is 1Msegment/s.  Is it true?
Only max 50 segments, are there k missing or is it really only 50 segments?
Segment time stamps?
Single segment length, what give this high 1Msegment/s speed?

Yeah, it's just 50 segments!  The Keysight product manager states this and demonstrates this at 18:55 on this video:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRzSxuenpd0&feature=youtu.be
-katie
 

Online Someone

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #484 on: March 02, 2017, 07:30:19 am »
Pricing for the options is very confusing!

$150 USD for serial decodes, 3 choices:
I2C, UART for EDU
I2C, SPI, UART for non-EDU
CAN, LIN for non-EDU

Upgrade from 70MHz to 100MHz, $230 USD

Nickel and diming at its best and no mention of the DVM being a paid option other than the "free for a limited time" in the release video (noted as free with registration on the data sheet). Seems like they're just pacing the Rigol DS1000Z pricing. But the front end on this little thing looks ripe for some hacking :)
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #485 on: March 02, 2017, 10:00:54 am »
Yeah, it's just 50 segments!  The Keysight product manager states this and demonstrates this at 18:55 on this video:
That seems a pretty ridiculous limitation, unless it only applies to the 100k memory versions, where I can see that a minimum segment length might be needed to avoid messing up some part of the display logic
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Offline Daruosha

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #486 on: March 02, 2017, 10:10:15 am »
Spec-wise and on paper I'm pretty disappointed. Watched Dave's teardown and very short reviews, i guess it has nothing against the DS1054Z to properly compete. 2 channels, 50K waveform update rate, optional and rather expansive serial decoders don't offer any additional value in comparison with Rigol DS1054. The only new feature is frequency response analysis which can be done with an cheap arb-gen and any other scope isn't that much exciting at all. And 1M points memory is way too behind the competition.

Come on! What they have been thinking of?
 

Online Someone

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #487 on: March 02, 2017, 10:52:01 am »
Spec-wise and on paper I'm pretty disappointed. Watched Dave's teardown and very short reviews, i guess it has nothing against the DS1054Z to properly compete. 2 channels, 50K waveform update rate, optional and rather expansive serial decoders don't offer any additional value in comparison with Rigol DS1054. The only new feature is frequency response analysis which can be done with an cheap arb-gen and any other scope isn't that much exciting at all. And 1M points memory is way too behind the competition.

Come on! What they have been thinking of?
On paper its competing directly against the DS1000Z on specs and price (assuming you don't unlock all the features of only one for free). Deep memory or fast update rates? pick one thats more important and now you know which scope is in your heart forever.
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #488 on: March 02, 2017, 10:55:18 am »
Yeah, it's just 50 segments!  The Keysight product manager states this and demonstrates this at 18:55 on this video:
That seems a pretty ridiculous limitation, unless it only applies to the 100k memory versions, where I can see that a minimum segment length might be needed to avoid messing up some part of the display logic
the datasheet for the EDU version states no segmented memory. Also they demonstrated CAN and such which is not available for EDU.

I have to say, using the probe compensation for default signals was a very neat touch

Spec-wise and on paper I'm pretty disappointed. Watched Dave's teardown and very short reviews, i guess it has nothing against the DS1054Z to properly compete. 2 channels, 50K waveform update rate, optional and rather expansive serial decoders don't offer any additional value in comparison with Rigol DS1054. The only new feature is frequency response analysis which can be done with an cheap arb-gen and any other scope isn't that much exciting at all. And 1M points memory is way too behind the competition.

Come on! What they have been thinking of?
On paper its competing directly against the DS1000Z on specs and price (assuming you don't unlock all the features of only one for free). Deep memory or fast update rates? pick one thats more important and now you know which scope is in your heart forever.

AND Can.
AND Lin.
AND Sig Gen.
AND Frequency responce plot (mag/phase)
AND Hardware decoding and triggering and mask test (makes a loooot of difference in real world)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 10:58:30 am by JPortici »
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #489 on: March 02, 2017, 11:02:58 am »
On paper its competing directly against the DS1000Z on specs and price (assuming you don't unlock all the features of only one for free). Deep memory or fast update rates? pick one thats more important and now you know which scope is in your heart forever.

Not sure I understand. Regarding waveform update rates, the DS1000Z and the new Keysight are not worlds apart (30k/s vs. 50k/s). Regarding memory, the DS1000Z has lots of it, although with limited navigation capabilities; the Keysight has much less, apparently with a significant restriction on the number of segments.

So neither of the two criteria seems to massively favor either the one or the other scope I my view. Which one is "in your heart", and for what reason? (I know about my heart, and the answer has something to do with the price for a fully option-enabled scope... ;))
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #490 on: March 02, 2017, 11:41:03 am »
In case of general educational use I cannot see how DS1000Z could be used at all (except in Russia perhaps...). How you would explain sin(x)/x function if it's cumbersome to turn ON/OFF and changes amplitude up to 40% :D Any scope for edu use must have stuff strictly "by the book", otherwise it's gonna be a terrible mess for a teacher ;) Better somewhat limited than "packed with goodies" but showing plain wrong stuff...

BTW does decoding in 1000 X have event table which covers full dataset captured? Lets say you captured 1M, but heavily zoomed in to some part. Will it decode only zoomed part or all 1M?
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #491 on: March 02, 2017, 11:49:23 am »
In case of general educational use I cannot see how DS1000Z could be used at all (except in Russia perhaps...). How you would explain sin(x)/x function if it's cumbersome to turn ON/OFF and changes amplitude up to 40% :D Any scope for edu use must have stuff strictly "by the book", otherwise it's gonna be a terrible mess for a teacher ;) Better somewhat limited than "packed with goodies" but showing plain wrong stuff...

Oh, look, Wolfie's back.

 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #492 on: March 02, 2017, 12:10:42 pm »
In case of general educational use I cannot see how DS1000Z could be used at all (except in Russia perhaps...). How you would explain sin(x)/x function if it's cumbersome to turn ON/OFF and changes amplitude up to 40% :D Any scope for edu use must have stuff strictly "by the book", otherwise it's gonna be a terrible mess for a teacher...

This is perhaps one reason why Keyshit say: "Scrap the Toys, Get a Real Oscilloscope"

And then they compare with 1000Z  here:

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1999EN.pdf?id=2836046&cc=US&lc=eng
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #493 on: March 02, 2017, 12:22:20 pm »
i didn't even want to look at it.. just the marketing crap that i expected. the chart is misleading, some things are not strictly correct like
Quote
Digital voltmeter and frequency counter: Yes – Free | No

the rigol has a frequency counter

and then saying > 50k wfm/s
next page "up to 50k"
and in their presentation at least 50k, up to 1Meg

jeez.

(also, i measured about 43k wfm/s on my rigol, though the UI was still painfully slow)

they should have sticked to their selling points:
bode plot (very useful)
automotive option (essential. it would be mandatory to do canbus now, in my old high school!!)
broad range of test signals (from the probe compensation port)

and they are great selling points, i'm like 90% convinced to "scrap the rigol and get this one for my home lab"* but there are some question that still haven't been answered. let's hope dave and/or some other reviewer will do an in depth analysis and answer at our questions.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 12:26:31 pm by JPortici »
 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #494 on: March 02, 2017, 12:32:10 pm »
Quote
Digital voltmeter and frequency counter: Yes – Free | No
the rigol has a frequency counter

Think like lawyer, Rigol does not have DMM and counter :P Clever stuff...

they should have sticked to their selling points:

...and maybe do some actual performance testing. What gets my kettle going is that in the low end they mostly just "list the features" (often incorrectly!) and that's it. Only in higher end segment you start to see some actual wfm vs wfm testing of known signals in "competitive tests". Not every person buying low end is converted from gardening hobby to EE just yesterday :-DD
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 12:34:22 pm by MrW0lf »
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #495 on: March 02, 2017, 12:39:24 pm »
Now that we are done hyping the presumed breakthrough price of the new Keysight (with disappointing outcome) --
let's go ahead and hype the presumed performance! :P

Have fun...
I'll wait until the first real user reports come in, if and when some users actually buy the Keysight...  :popcorn:
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #496 on: March 02, 2017, 12:48:53 pm »
Not every person buying low end is converted from gardening hobby to EE just yesterday :-DD

I'm 100% sure there's a gardening forum somewhere where people are saying the exact same things about shovels, etc.

Somewhere out there there's a gardening Wolfie who paid for a cheap hoe and is now spending his life complaining about it, comparing the blade steel and handle wood to some other brand of hoe (when trying to hoe concrete no doubt) and finding it below his standards.

Hint: Just sell it, get something better and move on. Save everybody else some life. Other people are perfectly happy with their cheap hoe and consider it very good value for money even though it's not perfect.


 

Online nctnico

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #497 on: March 02, 2017, 01:11:25 pm »
In case of general educational use I cannot see how DS1000Z could be used at all (except in Russia perhaps...). How you would explain sin(x)/x function if it's cumbersome to turn ON/OFF and changes amplitude up to 40% :D Any scope for edu use must have stuff strictly "by the book", otherwise it's gonna be a terrible mess for a teacher...

This is perhaps one reason why Keyshit say: "Scrap the Toys, Get a Real Oscilloscope"

And then they compare with 1000Z  here:

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1999EN.pdf?id=2836046&cc=US&lc=eng
Keysight should really stop doing these ridiculous them versus competitor comparisons because they have no merit at all. I'm also finding these kind of comparisons an insult to intelligent engineers. An oscilloscope is not a laundry detergent so please don't market them the same way!
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #498 on: March 02, 2017, 01:19:01 pm »
In case of general educational use I cannot see how DS1000Z could be used at all (except in Russia perhaps...). How you would explain sin(x)/x function if it's cumbersome to turn ON/OFF and changes amplitude up to 40% :D Any scope for edu use must have stuff strictly "by the book", otherwise it's gonna be a terrible mess for a teacher...

This is perhaps one reason why Keyshit say: "Scrap the Toys, Get a Real Oscilloscope"

And then they compare with 1000Z  here:

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1999EN.pdf?id=2836046&cc=US&lc=eng
Keysight should really stop doing these ridiculous them versus competitor comparisons because they have no merit at all. I'm also finding these kind of comparisons an insult to intelligent engineers. An oscilloscope is not a laundry detergent so please don't market them the same way!
They aren't aimed at enineers - more towards purchasing depts who need spoon-feeding.
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Online fanOfeeDIY

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #499 on: March 02, 2017, 02:17:18 pm »
The spec sheet says that the InifiniiVision 1000X has the display with 7-inch WVGA but WVGA is a bit vague.

I am trying to update the chart here.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/digital-oscilloscope-comparison-chart/

Does anybody know the exact resolution? Since WVGA refers to 800x480 but sometimes 768x480 or 720x480 too.
 


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