Author Topic: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017  (Read 155637 times)

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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #550 on: March 04, 2017, 01:01:03 am »
One initial surprise is the timebase knob is not detented - seems an odd decision ( Y knobs are)
It's probably an assembly error, if not then this is really bad.
Mine has detents.
Thought it was odd not to have them - looked at the PCB and from the numbers printed on the encoders, they have actually fitted the wrong part. Pretty crazy that the only way to tell them apart is a barely visible part number - they should have used something more obvious like a different colour plastic for the shaft.
Bet there are a few more out there like this.....

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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #551 on: March 04, 2017, 01:06:31 am »
I don't think it's unreasonable to omit segmented in an educational scope. Education users aren't likely to get into the level of complexity that needs it, and it could cause confusion as when enabled it causes the scope to behave in a somewhat different way.


Really ?  :-//

Where are students going to learn about these features otherwise ?
A taste of features that are implemented in real DSO's in not a bad thing.

They will be learning about electronics, not about scopes other than general usage. If they get smart enough to be doing things that need segmented memory, they'll probably have moved on to a more advanced scope by then anyway.
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Offline JPortici

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #552 on: March 04, 2017, 03:55:25 am »
They do !! Here's another one. Fair point too. That '>=' sign in the measurements on keysight scopes doesn't instill to much confidence IMO. Sure not going to go down too well in edu institutes which rely on good measurements for the purposes of teaching and training  :(

if anything they teached us not to trust the measurement equipment (in high school all three years of labs were about errors, how to measure them)

also while i was in uni besides the fact i almost never saw a scope many excercises were about when to stop caring about the decimal sign, that's a good estimate. (which point was arbitrary, always one decimal few or too much during the exams. frustrating to say the least)

Quote
Me thinks that keysight could easily derive measurements from acquisition memory instead of display memory but that would have to be done in software and slow the whole thing down just like it does in the Tek scopes ;)
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Online TheSteve

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #553 on: March 04, 2017, 04:03:34 am »
One initial surprise is the timebase knob is not detented - seems an odd decision ( Y knobs are)
It's probably an assembly error, if not then this is really bad.
Mine has detents.
Thought it was odd not to have them - looked at the PCB and from the numbers printed on the encoders, they have actually fitted the wrong part. Pretty crazy that the only way to tell them apart is a barely visible part number - they should have used something more obvious like a different colour plastic for the shaft.
Bet there are a few more out there like this.....

Hmm, that is odd. Maybe Daniel can send you another one with proper detents then you can send the "bad" one to me to play with :)
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Online EEVblog

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #554 on: March 04, 2017, 05:47:51 am »
An interface bug that causes button pushes to be missed?

 

Offline amitchell

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #555 on: March 04, 2017, 07:42:45 am »
An interface bug that causes button pushes to be missed?



Hmmm, @EEVblog does mine do that?  ;)
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #556 on: March 04, 2017, 08:15:16 am »
An interface bug that causes button pushes to be missed?



Hmmm, @EEVblog does mine do that?  ;)

Yours is DOA! /jealous

Congrats :)

How frequent does this happen? Under all menus or just this one? Not a good start of a review!
« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 08:18:06 am by TheAmmoniacal »
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Offline ebastler

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #557 on: March 04, 2017, 08:39:29 am »
An interface bug that causes button pushes to be missed?

Strange one indeed!  We should not blow this out of proportion -- if it is indeed a software flaw affecting all units, I trust it will be fixed quickly. But given the fact that the responsive interface is supposed to be one of the key strengths of this scope, it is a bit of a let-down. Also makes you wonder about Keysight's software QA...
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #558 on: March 04, 2017, 09:08:32 am »
Keysight clearly warns and recommends in product brochure.
"Scrap the toys, get a real oscilloscope"

19 us trigger rearm time in sequence mode is also true on data sheet.
(this is really very extremely slow, just like in 2000X)

But, there in brochure read also that trigger rearm time is 1us in normal mode.

Please, who have this scope,  show me this is true!  And how it can see  by user.
I do not believe manufacturer claims without real evidences.
If this is something what can see only inside MegaZoom IV chip -- user is not there, user is outside and looking screen. So, is this 1us rearm time somehow visible  for user in practice, or is it perhaps mistake in brochure.


If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Online AndyC_772

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #559 on: March 04, 2017, 09:30:24 am »
And what's with keysight scopes always deriving measurements from the display data instead of the acquisition memory ? Seems to be a serious short coming of their megazoom hardware ?

It looks to me as though in the first video, the the Keysight is the only scope in which it's actually possible to determine, or influence, the specific rising edge which is to be measured. It displays both the measured value itself, and cursors showing exactly how and where the measurement is made.

The Tek says the same value all the time, but it's not at all clear which of the thousands of rising edges in the acquisition memory is being measured. That's not better, IMHO, and zooming in on the edge you actually want to measure is no hardship.

Offline Fungus

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #560 on: March 04, 2017, 09:43:52 am »
The answer is yes, the trigger channel can be used as a third, digital channel, and it does NOT have to trigger from that channel, e.g. you can trigger off channel 1, and show 2 analogue channels and third digital channel.

It it shown on screen as a third trace?

Yes. This channel can be used just like a 1-channel MSO - you don't even need to be using it for trigger - the ext input is just another input when selecting trigger or decode signal sources.

OK, that's very cool. Should cover a lot of cases where 2 channels isn't enough for 'digital' work.  :-+
« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 01:17:41 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #561 on: March 04, 2017, 09:54:01 am »
Where are students going to learn about these features otherwise ?
A taste of features that are implemented in real DSO's in not a bad thing.

They will be learning about electronics, not about scopes other than general usage. If they get smart enough to be doing things that need segmented memory, they'll probably have moved on to a more advanced scope by then anyway.

Yep. I think most people here are overestimating what happens in education. Most people will learn that stuff when they get a thing called a "job".

In case of general educational use I cannot see how DS1000Z could be used at all (except in Russia perhaps...).

I imagine they'll switch it on, show them how to set the horizontal/vertical, how to switch on more channels, how to trigger, how to capture/zoom, etc.

Hopefully they'll also teach them not to connect the ground clip to anything that isn't ground. Stuff like that. All things a DS1000Z does perfectly. :popcorn:

« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 01:19:57 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #562 on: March 04, 2017, 10:03:46 am »


It looks to me as though in the first video, the the Keysight is the only scope in which it's actually possible to determine, or influence, the specific rising edge which is to be measured. It displays both the measured value itself, and cursors showing exactly how and where the measurement is made.


Where exactly? And what exactly?

What scope can not do adjustabe gate width  measurements and tracking cursors?
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 
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Offline snoopy

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #563 on: March 04, 2017, 10:44:19 am »
Keysight clearly warns and recommends in product brochure.
"Scrap the toys, get a real oscilloscope"

19 us trigger rearm time in sequence mode is also true on data sheet.
(this is really very extremely slow, just like in 2000X)

But, there in brochure read also that trigger rearm time is 1us in normal mode.

Please, who have this scope,  show me this is true!  And how it can see  by user.
I do not believe manufacturer claims without real evidences.
If this is something what can see only inside MegaZoom IV chip -- user is not there, user is outside and looking screen. So, is this 1us rearm time somehow visible  for user in practice, or is it perhaps mistake in brochure.

The 19uS re-arm time corresponds to the published spec of 50,000 waveforms per second. The 1uS re-arm time must be taken from the blurb for the 1 million wfrms/s on the 3000 and 4000 scopes.

cheers
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #564 on: March 04, 2017, 10:50:26 am »
An interface bug that causes button pushes to be missed?

I've seen my 30104T get into a mode like this a couple of times - seems to be associated with serial decode as turning that off restored it. Possibly when serial decode is seeing garbage data, which seems to be what you have there.
 
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Offline Someone

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #565 on: March 04, 2017, 11:01:35 am »
Keysight clearly warns and recommends in product brochure.
"Scrap the toys, get a real oscilloscope"

19 us trigger rearm time in sequence mode is also true on data sheet.
(this is really very extremely slow, just like in 2000X)

But, there in brochure read also that trigger rearm time is 1us in normal mode.

Please, who have this scope,  show me this is true!  And how it can see  by user.
I do not believe manufacturer claims without real evidences.
If this is something what can see only inside MegaZoom IV chip -- user is not there, user is outside and looking screen. So, is this 1us rearm time somehow visible  for user in practice, or is it perhaps mistake in brochure.

The 19uS re-arm time corresponds to the published spec of 50,000 waveforms per second. The 1uS re-arm time must be taken from the blurb for the 1 million wfrms/s on the 3000 and 4000 scopes.

cheers
If you look at the comprehensive waveform update plot I posted earlier we can assume this 1000x unit will follow a similar path to the 2000x. It's possible the 1us rearm time is achievable at slower timebase settings below the synthetic 50,000 wfm/s limit.
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #566 on: March 04, 2017, 11:12:09 am »
An interface bug that causes button pushes to be missed?

I've seen my 30104T get into a mode like this a couple of times - seems to be associated with serial decode as turning that off restored it. Possibly when serial decode is seeing garbage data, which seems to be what you have there.

And because serial decode is built into the hardware perhaps there is not a lot they can do to fix it.

cheers
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #567 on: March 04, 2017, 12:42:58 pm »
An interface bug that causes button pushes to be missed?

I've seen my 30104T get into a mode like this a couple of times - seems to be associated with serial decode as turning that off restored it. Possibly when serial decode is seeing garbage data, which seems to be what you have there.

Possible. I'll try and see if it's repeatable under those conditions. Haven't seen it since
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #568 on: March 04, 2017, 12:59:54 pm »
An interface bug that causes button pushes to be missed?

I've seen my 30104T get into a mode like this a couple of times - seems to be associated with serial decode as turning that off restored it. Possibly when serial decode is seeing garbage data, which seems to be what you have there.

Possible. I'll try and see if it's repeatable under those conditions. Haven't seen it since
I've only seen it 2-3 times so probably a rather peculiar set of circumstances, but always with (uart) serial decode on 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #569 on: March 05, 2017, 04:30:38 pm »
Not mentioned in the manual, but uou can plug in a USB keyboard for entering label names, annotations
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Offline synthRodriguez

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #570 on: March 06, 2017, 01:22:23 pm »
Someone was asking about pixel count, not sure if that query was ever answered.

Per a message back from Keysight, it's 480 x 800.

Scott
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #571 on: March 06, 2017, 01:59:17 pm »
Not mentioned in the manual, but uou can plug in a USB keyboard for entering label names, annotations

Apparently it's Windows CE based. What about a mouse?

 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #572 on: March 06, 2017, 02:22:57 pm »
Not mentioned in the manual, but uou can plug in a USB keyboard for entering label names, annotations

Apparently it's Windows CE based. What about a mouse?
Tried but doesn't do anything. You can use a mouse on the MSOX3104T, as this is expecting X/Y input from the touchscreen. A pointer appears when you plug a mouse in - no pointer on DSOX1000.
Might be worth trying a USB ethernet interface - sure I have one somewhere but can't find it ATM.
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Online AndyC_772

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #573 on: March 06, 2017, 02:42:29 pm »
Not mentioned in the manual, but uou can plug in a USB keyboard for entering label names, annotations

This is a feature on 3000X too. Not sure if it's mentioned in the manual.

Tip: be careful if you plug in one of those tiny little RF receivers that Logitech keyboards use. It's a complete b*gger to get out again because the port is recessed!

Offline MrBungle

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #574 on: March 06, 2017, 05:23:49 pm »
Not mentioned in the manual, but uou can plug in a USB keyboard for entering label names, annotations

Apparently it's Windows CE based. What about a mouse?
Tried but doesn't do anything....
During the Q&A section of Keysights live draw today, someone asked about a mouse and Daniel confirmed it should work.
 


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