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Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: EEVblog on January 28, 2017, 10:05:02 pm

Title: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 28, 2017, 10:05:02 pm
Keysight are releasing a new 100MHz oscilloscope on March 1st.

(http://i.imgur.com/qXE2vra.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/0s3Tjfj.png)

I wonder what it could be  :-//
Title: Re: New Keysight Scope 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 28, 2017, 10:27:16 pm
How long would it take for Fungus to chime in and say the Rigol DS1054Z is way better than the 100MHz scopes Keysight is giving away?  >:D

And the event isn't better than ever because way less countries are eligible compared to last year!  :rant:
Title: Re: New 100MHz Keysight Scope 1st March 2017
Post by: snoopy on January 28, 2017, 11:22:48 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/IX4fWOP.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/0s3Tjfj.png)

I wonder what it could be  :-//

Perhaps it's a rebadged Rigol 1054Z ;)
Title: Re: New 100MHz Keysight Scope 1st March 2017
Post by: jjoonathan on January 29, 2017, 03:23:53 am
YAY FREE hackable SCOPES!!!!  ;D

Doesn't matter if they're 2000s instead of 3000s, doesn't matter if they have slightly less memory than we would like, doesn't matter if keysight is cleaning out inventory before a refresh. Free scopes are good scopes and I'm excited regardless :)

EDIT: didn't see the "including our newest oscilloscope." Now I'm double hyped :)

> And the event isn't better than ever because way less countries are eligible compared to last year!  :rant:

:(
Title: Re: New 100MHz Keysight Scope 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 29, 2017, 03:57:39 am
Doesn't matter if they're 2000s instead of 3000s, doesn't matter if they have slightly less memory than we would like, doesn't matter if keysight is cleaning out inventory before a refresh. Free scopes are good scopes and I'm excited regardless :)
EDIT: didn't see the "including our newest oscilloscope." Now I'm double hyped :)

Yes, they are giving away 5 of their new 100MHz scope every week day. Not clearing out an old model.
Title: Re: New 100MHz Keysight Scope 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 29, 2017, 10:57:46 am
No one's found any info yet? I'm surprised  :o
Title: Re: New 100MHz Keysight Scope 1st March 2017
Post by: SimonD on January 29, 2017, 11:15:12 am
Hi Dave,

Yeah ... it's a good movement but unfortunately not for all countries ....    :(
Title: Re: New 100MHz Keysight Scope 1st March 2017
Post by: cheeseit on January 29, 2017, 11:24:16 am
More chances for us in the approved countries! >:D Nah, it's too bad that legal requirements gets in the way, everybody should be able to participate.

Dave; throw us a bone, please! (I know, I know.. you're probably under some NDA or something)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-scope-1st-march-2017/?action=dlattach;attach=288277;image)
Title: Re: New 100MHz Keysight Scope 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 29, 2017, 11:26:24 am
YAY FREE hackable SCOPES!!!!  ;D

Doesn't matter if they're 2000s instead of 3000s, doesn't matter if they have slightly less memory than we would like, doesn't matter if keysight is cleaning out inventory before a refresh. Free scopes are good scopes and I'm excited regardless :)
Well you'd probably have to pay tax over the list price so free is relative and suddenly other options may be more interesting especially in the 100MHz arena 8)
Title: Re: New 100MHz Keysight Scope 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 29, 2017, 11:30:29 am
Yeah ... it's a good movement but unfortunately not for all countries ....    :(

I don't think people are grasping what this thread is about. It's not about the contest, Keysight have just said on their content website that they are releasing a NEW 100MHz scope on 1st March.

(http://i.imgur.com/qXE2vra.png)

Usually news of a new scope gets the nerds in a frenzy  :scared:
The contest seems to have diluted the message of a new scope release. A marketing oops perhaps...

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: continuo on January 29, 2017, 12:16:50 pm
Well, it's a 100MHz scope, so pretty basic, an entry level model. Take the touchscreen out of a 3000 and whack it into a 2000, voila, new scope... My bet is still on something like this, but who knows?   :-//
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: bit.cyber on January 29, 2017, 12:31:23 pm
Well, new scope design or not, I'm already in for a pre-entry and there's a one entry per day during March set-up.
And does 'Your chance to increase the number of oscilloscopes in the prize pool' mean that if there are more entries than expected Keysight will increase the prize pool?

Looks like I'm going to be busy once per day during March...  :-+
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 29, 2017, 12:46:31 pm
Well, it's a 100MHz scope, so pretty basic, an entry level model. Take the touchscreen out of a 3000 and whack it into a 2000, voila, new scope... My bet is still on something like this, but who knows?   :-//
I think so too. I strongly doubt Keysight is introducing a new scope which obsoletes the relatively new 2000,3000,4000 and 6000 models even though they are horrifically outdated when it comes to memory depth.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: continuo on January 29, 2017, 12:54:02 pm
OTOH, there are 10 x MSOX4104A in the pool, what's the retail price of one of these, ~$19.500, ist this correct? And the secret new model X is given away 115 times. The total approximate retail value of all prizes accounts to $318.655. Let's see:

10 * $19.500 + 115 * X = $318.655 -> X = ~$1.075

A Grand for one of the new 100MHz scopes, that's to cheap for an upgraded 2000 series...

Sound really more like a new 1000 series or a rebranded Rigol  :-DD
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 29, 2017, 01:03:30 pm
Well, it's a 100MHz scope, so pretty basic, an entry level model. Take the touchscreen out of a 3000 and whack it into a 2000, voila, new scope... My bet is still on something like this, but who knows?   :-//
It could be thet it's the 100MHz version of a range that goes higher - but as this would be in direct competition with the 2000 series, a touchscreen-enhanced 2000 would seem the most likely in that case.
Hard to see it being worth Keysight doing something completely new in the up-to-100MHz market as there is so much competition. Maybe another rebadge?
 
Title: Re: New 100MHz Keysight Scope 1st March 2017
Post by: continuo on January 29, 2017, 01:41:01 pm
Dave; throw us a bone, please! (I know, I know.. you're probably under some NDA or something)

I'm pretty sure he has found some 'barely used fully functional' unknown scopes in his dumpster - AGAIN  :-DD
Title: Re: New 100MHz Keysight Scope 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 29, 2017, 01:59:33 pm
Dave; throw us a bone, please! (I know, I know.. you're probably under some NDA or something)
I'm pretty sure he has found some 'barely used fully functional' unknown scopes in his dumpster - AGAIN  :-DD

I'm feeling lucky...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 29, 2017, 02:02:39 pm
Hard to see it being worth Keysight doing something completely new in the up-to-100MHz market as there is so much competition. Maybe another rebadge?

Tektronix did it with the TBS series, and that starts at US$450
Granted, rehash of the ancient 2.5K chipset, but still, there is a market for that stuff, mostly in academia. Not sure whether those are essentially loss-leaders or not though to get the students in :-// But that's not The Danaher Way
Title: Re: New 100MHz Keysight Scope 1st March 2017
Post by: dr.diesel on January 29, 2017, 02:03:03 pm
I'm feeling lucky...

Review/teardown currently rendering?   ;D
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 29, 2017, 02:52:03 pm
Hard to see it being worth Keysight doing something completely new in the up-to-100MHz market as there is so much competition. Maybe another rebadge?

Tektronix did it with the TBS series, and that starts at US$450

But are they actually selling ?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on January 29, 2017, 04:13:24 pm
More and more universities in Europe are turning to Rigol gear for their labs.

The golden years where Tektronix used to have a monopoly position in academic latitudes are long gone.

And I am convinced that the TBS series with poor specs isn't going to change anything about that.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 29, 2017, 05:15:31 pm
The Tektronix TBS series have some very specific features which could make them more appropriate for school use than a general purpose oscilloscope.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: memset on January 29, 2017, 05:32:00 pm
I already want one, as long it's original Keysight design and not a rebadged Rigol / etc.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: memset on January 29, 2017, 05:56:49 pm
Ok, I think this is it:
InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series
DSOX1102G, DSOX1102A, EDUX1002A, EDUX1002G

https://fccid.io/MSIP-REM-Kst-1A15150 (https://fccid.io/MSIP-REM-Kst-1A15150)
http://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/N2140-92000.pdf (http://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/N2140-92000.pdf)

EDUX? Educational series?
Specs like to be 2-ch only, 2GSa/s, 70 and 100 MHz. G models come with WaveGen option.
If you'll google a little more, you'll find some preliminary prices too.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: amitchell on January 29, 2017, 06:08:49 pm
Import value here:

https://www.zauba.com/import-EDUX1002G-hs-code.html (https://www.zauba.com/import-EDUX1002G-hs-code.html)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheSteve on January 29, 2017, 06:35:02 pm
20pF of input capacitance on the scope inputs - pretty high compared to most Keysight gear. Perhaps another rebadge?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ProBang2 on January 29, 2017, 06:48:36 pm
Interesting. The 1000 series is no more a rebadged device.
It seems it is originally factured from Keysight in Malaysia.
I am in suspense to see it the first time...   :popcorn:
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: memset on January 29, 2017, 07:11:45 pm
It seems it is originally factured from Keysight in Malaysia.
Why do you think so? Zauba device's SN is CNxxxx. That's made in China.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on January 29, 2017, 07:27:13 pm
Rumours say it is a rebadged version of a Chinese competitor.

Recently some photo has leaked out about the new Keysight 1000X series.

Maybe the photo provides more clarity in this ongoing debate? :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: memset on January 29, 2017, 07:31:42 pm
Maybe the photo provides more clarity in this ongoing debate? :)
Too many channels!
But the pricing seem to be exactly the same as competitor's 4 channel version.
Title: Re: New Keysight Scope 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on January 29, 2017, 07:31:58 pm
How long would it take for Fungus to chime in and say the Rigol DS1054Z is way better than the 100MHz scopes Keysight is giving away?  >:D

 :-//

If they're going to launch a 4-channel 100MHz 'scope with decent features, memory, etc. for $400 then I'll switch instantly. I've got no loyalty to Rigol.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ProBang2 on January 29, 2017, 07:34:10 pm
It seems it is originally factured from Keysight in Malaysia.
Why do you think so? Zauba device's SN is CNxxxx. That's made in China.

Don´t you have seen this link: https://fccid.io/MSIP-REM-Kst-1A15150 (https://fccid.io/MSIP-REM-Kst-1A15150)

Some quotes from it:

Quote
[...]
The InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope, manufactured by Keysight Technologies, Inc. and sold by Keysight Technologies, Inc. has an Authorization Number [...]

Quote
[...]
Company:   Keysight Technologies, Inc.
Device Name:   InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series Oscilloscope
Model:   DSOX1102G
Sub-Model:   DSOX1102A, EDUX1002A, EDUX1002G
[...]
Manufacturer:   Keysight Technologies, Inc.
Country:   Malaysia
[...]

So there are two different informations available?
Oh, yes, I have totally forgotten: Keysight is somehow related to the USA.
And there is now something new: Facts and alternative Facts...   :-//
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on January 29, 2017, 07:35:11 pm
I am in suspense to see it the first time...   :popcorn:

I am less so...  :=\

The new model seems to be positioned well below the existing Keysight scopes (going by the model number and prices floating around), so I don't expect any performance breakthoughs. This being Keysight, I would be surprised if it would set a new "bang for the buck" standard in the entry-level segment. More likely than not is has been "developed in collaboration" with a Chinese company. So what's to be excited about? (That being said, I would not mind a positive surprise...)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on January 29, 2017, 07:42:19 pm
The new model seems to be positioned well below the existing Keysight scopes (going by the model number and prices floating around), so I don't expect any performance breakthoughs. This being Keysight, I would be surprised if it would set a new "bang for the buck" standard in the entry-level segment. More likely than not is has been "developed in collaboration" with a Chinese company. So what's to be excited about? (That being said, I would not mind a positive surprise...)

Remember the launch of the new series of "entry level" Teks a few months ago?

Everybody was like, "The one true oscilloscope manufacturer is back!!", then the specs came out everybody was like.  :palm:

I'm sure Siglent wont do that, their $1000 'scopes are resonable, but... let's see if they're going to shake the market up or not. Somebody eventually has to take on Rigol at the $400 price point, will it be Siglent? :popcorn:
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: memset on January 29, 2017, 07:46:07 pm
So there are two different informations available?
FCC data is legal / certification related info. And Zauba lists one real device and its serial number. Not sure what's more relevant to this model's original maker, but I think both of the sources are very reliable.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheSteve on January 29, 2017, 08:14:31 pm
From the Keysight website:
Keysight Technologies EDUX1002G CN56240007 - InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series Education Oscilloscope with WaveGen, 50 MHz, 1 GS/s, 2Ch
There is no calibration data to look at yet.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: memset on January 29, 2017, 09:14:12 pm
Keysight Technologies EDUX1002G CN56240007 - InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series Education Oscilloscope with WaveGen, 50 MHz, 1 GS/s, 2Ch
$650 for 50Mhz 1GSa/a 2Ch... oh
Government agencies make it hard for biz to really surprise customers with the new goods :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 29, 2017, 09:18:54 pm
More and more universities in Europe are turning to Rigol gear for their labs.
The golden years where Tektronix used to have a monopoly position in academic latitudes are long gone.
And I am convinced that the TBS series with poor specs isn't going to change anything about that.

Teachers don't care about specs, they care about course material and how much work they have to so to produce class work.
If:
a) The class material is already written for Tek scopes, they'll use Tek scopes again.
b) If Tek offer comprehensive course material with the scopes then they'll buy Tek scopes.

Tek and Keysight are the only two scope makers who offer course material with scopes and actively target this market with that.
With Rigol and Siglent et.al it's like "We have cheap feature packed scopes, what more do you want?".
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on January 29, 2017, 09:20:51 pm
Keysight Technologies EDUX1002G CN56240007 - InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series Education Oscilloscope with WaveGen, 50 MHz, 1 GS/s, 2Ch
$650 for 50Mhz 1GSa/a 2Ch... oh

What's the capabilities of the "WaveGen"? (probably very low frequency like the R&S HMO1002)

They're definitely aiming at the educational market. Engineers need not apply.


Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 29, 2017, 09:27:05 pm
So there are two different informations available?
Oh, yes, I have totally forgotten: Keysight is somehow related to the USA.
And there is now something new: Facts and alternative Facts...   :-//

The new scope is not a rebadger.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on January 29, 2017, 09:37:42 pm
The new scope is not a rebadger.

But is it developed with/manufactured by an OEM partner, maybe?
And would it possibly show notable similarities with scopes available from that partner?  ;)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on January 29, 2017, 10:49:49 pm
More and more universities in Europe are turning to Rigol gear for their labs.
The golden years where Tektronix used to have a monopoly position in academic latitudes are long gone.
And I am convinced that the TBS series with poor specs isn't going to change anything about that.

Teachers don't care about specs, they care about course material and how much work they have to so to produce class work.
If:
a) The class material is already written for Tek scopes, they'll use Tek scopes again.
b) If Tek offer comprehensive course material with the scopes then they'll buy Tek scopes.

Tek and Keysight are the only two scope makers who offer course material with scopes and actively target this market with that.
With Rigol and Siglent et.al it's like "We have cheap feature packed scopes, what more do you want?".

Maybe that's how it works in the USA, but in Europe students are encouraged to learn by doing, and it should not be too easy either.

There are many good all-round books about scopes, so there is really no point to make a book that is targeted to a specific model of a scope. Those kind of books have no value IMO, as it is better to learn the general principles.

Students who graduate, will start working in companies where they will have to use gear from different manufacturers, and due to tight schedules, they will not have the opportunity to take a whole week in order to sit and read through the supplied user manuals :)

Moreover some stuff you simply can not learn from a book, and the easiest is just to start playing with it. How many engineers do actually read manuals? The same counts for those engineers while they are still student :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Someone on January 29, 2017, 10:57:23 pm
The new scope is not a rebadger.

But is it developed with/manufactured by an OEM partner, maybe?
And would it possibly show notable similarities with scopes available from that partner?  ;)
Unlikely to have any outside input if its being manufactured in Malaysia (along with most of their scopes) as suggested above, the older 1000 series were straight out of china.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 29, 2017, 11:15:18 pm
Unlikely to have any outside input if its being manufactured in Malaysia (along with most of their scopes) as suggested above, the older 1000 series were straight out of china.

The older 1000 series scope were just rebaged Rigol's.
Keysight (Agilent then) help build the monster that now is one of their main competitors, and they regret every bit of that decision. They didn't just rebadge but help them out technically too.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 29, 2017, 11:15:55 pm
The new scope is not a rebadger.
But is it developed with/manufactured by an OEM partner, maybe?
And would it possibly show notable similarities with scopes available from that partner?  ;)

No, and No.
But it is made in China.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: AlexDavidson on January 30, 2017, 12:59:38 am
I’m not sure how this scope month is supposed to help promote Keysight in those countries that are excluded, such as the one yours truly lives in. I would be more tempted to buy a Keysight scope if they simply reduced prices for a month.

Second point: our dear leader has often gone on about his goal of encouraging innovation & technology – hard when you discourage a major manufacturer of tech gear from running a promotion because it involves giving product away...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: james_s on January 30, 2017, 02:39:31 am
I wish somebody would go the other way around and rebadge Keysight scopes. I know it's a silly thing to care about but seriously, "Keysight"? I can't help but cringe when I hear that name.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Dubbie on January 30, 2017, 03:46:12 am
What's wrong with the name? Seems like a perfectly suitable name for a t&m company to me.


Sent from my phone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 30, 2017, 04:10:10 am
I’m not sure how this scope month is supposed to help promote Keysight in those countries that are excluded, such as the one yours truly lives in.

You're talking about it aren't you?  ;D
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: james_s on January 30, 2017, 05:15:35 am
What's wrong with the name? Seems like a perfectly suitable name for a t&m company to me.


Sent from my phone using Tapatalk

It just rubs me the wrong way for some reason, maybe I'm just still bitter about the demise of HP. I have mostly older test equipment, always liked HP, Tektronix and Fluke gear.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: borjam on January 30, 2017, 08:34:44 am
Well, it's a 100MHz scope, so pretty basic, an entry level model. Take the touchscreen out of a 3000 and whack it into a 2000, voila, new scope... My bet is still on something like this, but who knows?   :-//
As long as it's Well Tempered, Kappelmeister, everything will be fine ;)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on January 30, 2017, 10:36:13 am
I wish somebody would go the other way around and rebadge Keysight scopes. I know it's a silly thing to care about but seriously, "Keysight"? I can't help but cringe when I hear that name.

The demise of a brand name:

From High Performance (HP) to Agile Entertainment (Agilent)

From Agile Entertainment (Agilent) to Keystroking Sightlines (Keysight)
Title: Re: New 100MHz Keysight Scope 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on January 30, 2017, 10:49:28 am
I don't think people are grasping what this thread is about. It's not about the contest, Keysight have just said on their content website that they are releasing a NEW 100MHz scope on 1st March.
Usually news of a new scope gets the nerds in a frenzy  :scared:
Must be something in the air about March as I've heard of some other stuff coming out then too.  :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on January 30, 2017, 11:24:44 am
New Siglent scopes or new Rigol scopes? :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on January 30, 2017, 11:31:08 am
New Siglent scopes or new Rigol scopes? :)

Rigol will steal Siglent's thunder by announcing something the week before the Siglent launch...?  :popcorn:

Let's hope so. The more the merrier, it's all good for users.

PS: Rigol promised us a new DS1000Z firmware at the end of this month. One day to go.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on January 30, 2017, 11:42:40 am
Maybe the Z in the new Rigol series will no longer stand for Zorro, but for Zynq, if they decided to follow GW-Instek's hardware architecture built around a Zynq-7000 MPSoc! :)

That would be great! Finally a Zynq-7000 based scope that does not look like a toy! :)
Title: Re: New 100MHz Keysight Scope 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 30, 2017, 12:49:28 pm
I don't think people are grasping what this thread is about. It's not about the contest, Keysight have just said on their content website that they are releasing a NEW 100MHz scope on 1st March.
Usually news of a new scope gets the nerds in a frenzy  :scared:
Must be something in the air about March as I've heard of some other stuff coming out then too.  :)
Yeah - another big-name testgear manufacturer contacted me a while ago about some new gear coming out around then to see if I was interested in looking at it. Not heard anything back yet.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: lukier on January 30, 2017, 01:08:49 pm
Is this the one?

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2189548.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2189548.pdf)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on January 30, 2017, 01:15:27 pm
Is this the one?

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2189548.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2189548.pdf)

 :scared:

2 GSa/s
Segmented memory   (and 1Mpts is not that small)
20-MHz function generator
(includes Bode plot test)
CAN, LIN - (DSOX1AUTO)

If it decoded from acquisition memory and not from screen it would be a total winner over a comparable siglent.

holding my breath for the manual and price but i think i'll grab a scope of the month leftover from ebay
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 30, 2017, 01:29:28 pm
Is this the one?
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2189548.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2189548.pdf)

Oops.

Quote
Display 7.0” diagonal color TFT LCD WVGA 9
9. Display can have a maximum of 5 total stuck bright or stuck dark sub pixels (0.000434%) without being regarded as a failure.

 :wtf: Is this the 1990's?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Faith on January 30, 2017, 01:31:34 pm
Oh wow. Well I guess let's see what the price is?

For a long time Keysight had the MSOX2024A on their eBay Shop as Premium Used with brand new warranty for only US$1,975.05.

And that has four channels. AND eight MSO channels. And et cetera.

So unless I'm missing something blindingly obvious this scope will have to be less than half that to be even remotely worth it.

But I guess that this is Keysight's last-hurrah for the MegaZoom IV architecture which they think they can clear their stock while trying to penetrate the education market?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nfmax on January 30, 2017, 01:34:57 pm
That's not a badly specc'ed scope at all for a hobbyist/education/entry level instrument. I wonder what the pricing will be like? If it replaces the old 1000B series at similar cost they may have themselves a real winner.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Pinkus on January 30, 2017, 01:35:03 pm
First headline in the PDF: "Scrap the Toys, Get a Real Oscilloscope"  :popcorn:
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Faith on January 30, 2017, 01:35:51 pm
Quote
Display 7.0” diagonal color TFT LCD WVGA 9
9. Display can have a maximum of 5 total stuck bright or stuck dark sub pixels (0.000434%) without being regarded as a failure.

 :wtf: Is this the 1990's?

Haha, I'm not sure which is more depressing; the resolution (or more precisely lack thereof) or what they regard as an actual panel failure.

Dell warranties my 2560x1440 panel the moment a single pixel is either stuck or dead.

Ugh.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: RGB255_0_0 on January 30, 2017, 01:37:00 pm
If it's $650 as per the Rupee document then I don't think this will in any way dissuade those to buy the 1054Z. Memory depth looks low compared to the Rigol to me...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 30, 2017, 01:40:27 pm
Haha, I'm not sure which is more depressing; the resolution (or more precisely lack thereof)

The Megazoom IV ASIC is fixed to that display and waveform window size, they couldn't change it if they wanted to.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Faith on January 30, 2017, 01:44:34 pm
If it's $650 as per the Rupee document then I don't think this will in any way dissuade those to buy the 1054Z. Memory depth looks low compared to the Rigol to me...

I've honestly never found the memory depth to be too big an issue on the MSOX2024A, which is the same.

And Keysight's Segmented Memory works really well for most part.

I'd take 1Mpt memory with a super fluid and responsive UI versus 20Mpt memory with a UI which tries its best to make me stab myself in the eyes.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: RGB255_0_0 on January 30, 2017, 01:48:16 pm
May not be what Keysight would like but maybe a shoot out between the two. Wink wink nudge nudge.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on January 30, 2017, 01:59:56 pm
If it's $650 as per the Rupee document then I don't think this will in any way dissuade those to buy the 1054Z. Memory depth looks low compared to the Rigol to me...

And that would be $650 for the educational model (limited to 50 MHz without upgrade option, and probably limited to customers in the educational market). I would assume around $1000 for the 70 MHz "regular" model.

Decoders will cost extra. I came across a $170 price for the decoder option yesterday - also at the Farnell website, I believe, but can't retrieve it today.

EDIT: Found the decoder price, http://de.farnell.com/keysight-technologies/edux1embd/embedded-decodes-analysis-digital/dp/2706567 (http://de.farnell.com/keysight-technologies/edux1embd/embedded-decodes-analysis-digital/dp/2706567). Again, that's the price for the educational version, which has a separate product code. Does $250 for the regular decoders sound about right?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: madires on January 30, 2017, 02:15:36 pm
Segmented memory   (and 1Mpts is not that small)

My old trusty Hameg Combiscope with CRT has 1Mpts. I think it's 9 or 10 years old. The InfiniiVision 1000 X seems to be intended as entry level DSO for education and hobbyists/makers, with a nice Keysight label. Universities might be interested but it's hard to compete with a DS1054Z. The big question is: how much does an 100MHz 1000 X including all software options cost?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on January 30, 2017, 02:21:49 pm
I work (job, not hobby) with 2.5kpts on a tek and 48k on a picoscope. That's just fine.
Since the pico decode from acquisition memory (i.e. current buffer or all buffer on host computer) i don't have the need to acquire at a slow timebase then zoom in and hope it will be decoded and no data was lost during sampling. Zoom out, reach for new packet, zoom in, repeat (as i have to do on the rigol at home)

Less amount but segmented memory and proper decoding is what i need. Can decoding is a must. A proper user interface is also welcome.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on January 30, 2017, 02:25:34 pm
The big question is: how much does an 100MHz 1000 X including all software options cost?

Based on what I posted above, I would say at least $1500 initial price tag. I could not find a price for the 70 to 100 MHz upgrade so far, but if we assume $1000 for the 70 MHz scope and $250 for the decoders, another $250 for the bandwidth upgrade might fit the bill? (Well, Keysight's bill that is, not mine...  ;))
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: georgd on January 30, 2017, 02:36:13 pm
The price list of a Russian distributor :
https://dip8.ru/catalog_fast_search/index.php?sort=TITLE&order=asc&q=DSOX110&s=&where=code (https://dip8.ru/catalog_fast_search/index.php?sort=TITLE&order=asc&q=DSOX110&s=&where=code)

Georg
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nfmax on January 30, 2017, 02:40:42 pm
UK distributor Aspen currently shows £985 list for a DSOX2002A, the 2-channel 70MHz base model of the 2000X series. The 1000X series should be significantly less than this, though what with Brexit & all, the USD/GBP rate has worsened significantly (from our point of view) and who knows?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on January 30, 2017, 03:00:11 pm
If it's $650 as per the Rupee document then I don't think this will in any way dissuade those to buy the 1054Z. Memory depth looks low compared to the Rigol to me...

Plus: 50MHz, only 2 channels and serial decoding is an option.

Oh well, Maybe next time.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: daveshah on January 30, 2017, 03:12:36 pm
£113 ex vat for I²C, SPI and UART decoding doesn't seem too bad

http://uk.farnell.com/keysight-technologies/dsox1embd/embedded-decodes-analysis-digital/dp/2706569?ost=DSOX1EMBD&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All%2BCategories&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://uk.farnell.com/keysight-technologies/dsox1embd/embedded-decodes-analysis-digital/dp/2706569?ost=DSOX1EMBD&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All%2BCategories&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 30, 2017, 03:18:47 pm
Is this the one?

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2189548.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2189548.pdf)
:wtf: Why the hell did they even bother to make this? 1Mpts on Keysight means 250kpts in real usage scenarios. No, segmented memory is far less useful than raw memory depth. Scrap the Toys it says in the datasheet. Well... why don't you guys at Keysight do that? FFS get real! This scope is clearly for the educational market where nobody gets fired for buying Tektronix or Keysight but other than that nobody with a sane mind would spend money on a scope like this.

 In Trumpish: Total Disaster. For Keysight's sake I hope it is a fake datasheet.  :-DD

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on January 30, 2017, 04:36:21 pm
£113 ex vat for I²C, SPI and UART decoding doesn't seem too bad

http://uk.farnell.com/keysight-technologies/dsox1embd/embedded-decodes-analysis-digital/dp/2706569?ost=DSOX1EMBD&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All%2BCategories&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false (http://uk.farnell.com/keysight-technologies/dsox1embd/embedded-decodes-analysis-digital/dp/2706569?ost=DSOX1EMBD&selectedCategoryId=&categoryNameResp=All%2BCategories&searchView=table&iscrfnonsku=false)
So the commercial option is cheaper than the corresponding option for the EDU version which I had linked to above?!
OK, I will stop pretending that I understand Keysight's pricing structure then...  ::)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: AndyC_772 on January 30, 2017, 05:07:50 pm
£113 is the price for DSOX1AUTO, DSOX1EMBD and EDUX1EMBD. All three are the same cost.

But:DSOX1EMBD offers I2C, SPI and UART, but EDUX1EMBD only offers I2C and UART, not SPI.

Clearly nobody needs to learn about SPI  :-BROKE
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 30, 2017, 05:16:08 pm
£113 is the price for DSOX1AUTO, DSOX1EMBD and EDUX1EMBD. All three are the same cost.

But:DSOX1EMBD offers I2C, SPI and UART, but EDUX1EMBD only offers I2C and UART, not SPI.

Clearly nobody needs to learn about SPI  :-BROKE
SPI on a 2-channel scope ?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: AndyC_772 on January 30, 2017, 05:34:08 pm
I'm just quoting from the data sheet  :scared:
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Neganur on January 30, 2017, 05:41:48 pm
:wtf: Why the hell did they even bother to make this? 1Mpts on Keysight means 250kpts in real usage scenarios.

Ahem, it's 2ch not 4 so it's probably 500k per channel :D and I see no MSO option (yet) to split the memory even further. If it really has the mega zoom 4 in it then the functionality will be pretty sweet compared to the rigol Imo. Sure, it can't be a feature galore but hey it's a 1000 series scope - look at the model it's replacing.

I imagine that people who want more memory buy scopes that provide it.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 30, 2017, 05:48:31 pm
No, with Keysight the memory is always split by 4. It is split across two channels and then split again for double buffering which on a 2 channel scope with 1MPts leaves you with 250kpts per channel.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on January 30, 2017, 05:52:36 pm
SPI on a 2-channel scope ?

Well, the data sheet mentions a "digital channel" in the specifications section, generously calling it "MSO" functionality. And next to the large, dual-page photo it explains that the trigger input can be used as a third, digital channel. That's actually a neat idea. (But still doesn't get me excited about the scope.)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on January 30, 2017, 05:55:24 pm
£113 is the price for DSOX1AUTO, DSOX1EMBD and EDUX1EMBD. All three are the same cost.

But:DSOX1EMBD offers I2C, SPI and UART, but EDUX1EMBD only offers I2C and UART, not SPI.

Clearly nobody needs to learn about SPI  :-BROKE
SPI on a 2-channel scope ?

2+ext. ext interrupt can be used for decoding. can't do full duplex (or maybe it can, without detecting for CS?)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: rf-loop on January 30, 2017, 06:02:55 pm


If it decoded from acquisition memory and not from screen it would be a total winner over a comparable siglent.



Siglent decode whole acquisition length. Maximum acquisition length is limited to 1.4M when decode is in use.

--------

This Keysight model Segmented memory acquisition must be joke? max 50 segments. And more fun, 19us (!) minimum trigger rearm time in segmented mode - is it mistake in datasheet text or really true.  Siglent normal mode wfm history buffer can do it always in normal mode and when goes to Segmented mode (Sequence mode in Siglent) max speed is nearly ten times more even in Sigl 1000X.

 

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Neganur on January 30, 2017, 06:11:10 pm
No, with Keysight the memory is always splits by 4. It is split across two channels and then split again for double buffering which on a 2 channel scope with 1MPts leaves you with 250kpts per channel.

But you still make it sound like the scope cannot capture 1M/500k 1ch/2ch which is not true. Single shot gives you all of that memory, doesn't it?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Augustus on January 30, 2017, 06:15:59 pm
It's a nice hobbyist scope, I wouldn't mind winning one  8)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 30, 2017, 06:20:09 pm
No, with Keysight the memory is always splits by 4. It is split across two channels and then split again for double buffering which on a 2 channel scope with 1MPts leaves you with 250kpts per channel.
But you still make it sound like the scope cannot capture 1M/500k 1ch/2ch which is not true. Single shot gives you all of that memory, doesn't it?
Yes, but you'd have to setup the scope specifically to do that which is a bit of a chore (I own an Agilent scope as well so I know all about it). On my GW Instek GDS2204E (for example) I don't have to bother myself with selecting the acquisition mode or which channels to use because it has enough memory for each channel to capture 10MPts no matter what. BTW the way Keysight counts memory the GDS2204E would have 40MPts.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Neganur on January 30, 2017, 06:33:33 pm
I was under the impression that all you have to do is to hit the Stop button on the InfiniiVision.

But the whole memory thing is not so important to me so I'm maybe the wrong person to discuss this.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 30, 2017, 06:44:57 pm
@Neganur: hitting the stop button isn't going to help because the scope is setup to acquire multiple sweeps. Only when in single mode you'll have double the memory because double buffering is disabled.

If it decoded from acquisition memory and not from screen it would be a total winner over a comparable siglent.
AFAIK Agilent/Keysight scopes decode from memory (the entire memory even when in segmented mode) and not just what is on screen. The only limit is the memory in which the decodes result is stored but you are into the many thousands of messages before you run into it. But that is judging from how my DSO7000 series works.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: PA0PBZ on January 30, 2017, 06:46:17 pm
And more fun, 19us (!) minimum trigger rearm time in segmented mode - is it mistake in datasheet text or really true.

On page 17 it says:

Segmented memory optimizes available memory for data streams that have long dead times between activity. Maximum segments = 50. Re-arm time = 1 us (minimum time between trigger events)

So what is the truth?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on January 30, 2017, 06:47:15 pm


If it decoded from acquisition memory and not from screen it would be a total winner over a comparable siglent.



Siglent decode whole acquisition length. Maximum acquisition length is limited to 1.4M when decode is in use.


it does? couldn't find mentioned it in the manual for sds1000x series (putting 2GS/s aside, this is what i would use for comparison)
also i couldn't find out is the external trigger and the digital channels could be used as channels for serial decoder/trigger
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on January 30, 2017, 06:58:53 pm


If it decoded from acquisition memory and not from screen it would be a total winner over a comparable siglent.



Siglent decode whole acquisition length. Maximum acquisition length is limited to 1.4M when decode is in use.


it does? couldn't find mentioned it in the manual for sds1000x series (putting 2GS/s aside, this is what i would use for comparison)
also i couldn't find out is the external trigger and the digital channels could be used as channels for serial decoder/trigger
2 channels for decoding works perfectly fine, just not duplex and the Decoding Trigger suite in Siglents permits triggering on the packets or events of interest. I've tried to find a use case where 2 channels aren't enough to decode I2C, SPI, CAN, UART and LIN, there isn't one.  :P
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 30, 2017, 07:05:49 pm
2 channels for decoding works perfectly fine, just not duplex and the Decoding Trigger suite in Siglents permits triggering on the packets or events of interest. I've tried to find a use case where 2 channels aren't enough to decode I2C, SPI, CAN, UART and LIN, there isn't one.  :P
Try and hunt for a (timing) problem when daisy chaining SPI devices. You won't be happy with just 2 channels! Looking at decoded data is one thing but usually there is other stuff happening in a circuit which has something to do with the decoded data and in many cases you'll want to see that as well.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on January 30, 2017, 07:13:48 pm
I've tried to find a use case where 2 channels aren't enough to decode I2C :P

 :palm:

SPI

Maybe ... but don't tell me it wouldn't be cool if you had the option to use ext-trigger for the CS line.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on January 30, 2017, 07:22:14 pm
:wtf: Is this the 1990's?

No, it's the 50's:

Maximum input voltage 150 Vrms, 200 Vpk

And it comes with switchable probes too.  :palm:
 :scared:
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on January 30, 2017, 07:30:32 pm
Maximum input voltage 150 Vrms, 200 Vpk

"Scrap the Toys, Get a Real Oscilloscope"  :-+
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on January 30, 2017, 07:39:15 pm
2 channels for decoding works perfectly fine, just not duplex and the Decoding Trigger suite in Siglents permits triggering on the packets or events of interest. I've tried to find a use case where 2 channels aren't enough to decode I2C, SPI, CAN, UART and LIN, there isn't one.  :P
so it doesn't. potentially one point for keysight

i *can* get around using 2 channels for spi (even for spi eeproms, it's not really full duplex anyway if MOSI is just there for shifting out data) and it's usually not a problem but having like analog on ch1 and data/clock on ch2/ext would be better (applies to other serial protocols as well)
no decoding on digital channels is borderline useless too, for my current use anyway
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on January 30, 2017, 07:43:43 pm
2 channels for decoding works perfectly fine, just not duplex and the Decoding Trigger suite in Siglents permits triggering on the packets or events of interest. I've tried to find a use case where 2 channels aren't enough to decode I2C, SPI, CAN, UART and LIN, there isn't one.  :P
so it doesn't. potentially one point for keysight
Where it appears they've chosen to use an Ext trig for CS, right ?
If so, it's a feature that can be added in FW for any DSO with a Ext trig in.  :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on January 30, 2017, 07:53:34 pm
Where it appears they've chosen to use an Ext trig for CS, right ?
If so, it's a feature that can be added in FW for any DSO with a Ext trig in.  :)

If it decodes whatever's in memory then no FW update is needed. Trigger using CS and decode the captured CLOCK and MOSI data.

Most SPI data is bidirectional though. Normally you want to get data back from your slaves. Very few things will be purely master->slave with no reply. SPI with two channels isn't very useful.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nfmax on January 30, 2017, 08:09:51 pm
Anyone noticed the DVM option is free on registration of the scope? The FFT has phase as well as magnitude? (and can we have that on the 2000X series as well, please Mr Keysight?) The bode plot function on the wavegen equipped models? And the ADC is 2Gsps on the 100MHz versions, not 1GHz split 4 ways like on the hacked Rigols?

Really, it all depends on the price...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: memset on January 30, 2017, 08:51:43 pm
Oops.

Ok, an announcement finally came a little earlier :)

Nice, cut down 2000X series. Too bad no MSO capabilities.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 30, 2017, 08:53:32 pm
If it's $650 as per the Rupee document then I don't think this will in any way dissuade those to buy the 1054Z. Memory depth looks low compared to the Rigol to me...
And that would be $650 for the educational model (limited to 50 MHz without upgrade option, and probably limited to customers in the educational market). I would assume around $1000 for the 70 MHz "regular" model.

You will be pleasantly surprised
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: memset on January 30, 2017, 09:02:18 pm
You will be pleasantly surprised
Russian retailer's pricelist hints for possible US retail price of ~$800 for DSOX1102G (and ~$1750 from that retailer in Russia).
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 30, 2017, 09:14:07 pm
If it's $650 as per the Rupee document then I don't think this will in any way dissuade those to buy the 1054Z. Memory depth looks low compared to the Rigol to me...
And that would be $650 for the educational model (limited to 50 MHz without upgrade option, and probably limited to customers in the educational market). I would assume around $1000 for the 70 MHz "regular" model.
You will be pleasantly surprised
But even then there are better options out there. Buying a crippled Keysight is just paying for the badge but it gets you nowhere:
(https://www.outdoorspeelgoed.nl/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/b/e/berg_ferrari_fxx_exclusive-a_2_1.png)
What was that about 'Scrap the toys?'  >:D
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Someone on January 30, 2017, 10:12:26 pm
I was under the impression that all you have to do is to hit the Stop button on the InfiniiVision.

But the whole memory thing is not so important to me so I'm maybe the wrong person to discuss this.
Rather than stop, which leaves the last acquisition (with its memory halved from the ping-pong buffer) on the screen you press single and then it captures the next trigger with the full memory depth.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on January 30, 2017, 10:22:02 pm
I was under the impression that all you have to do is to hit the Stop button on the InfiniiVision.

But the whole memory thing is not so important to me so I'm maybe the wrong person to discuss this.
Rather than stop, which leaves the last acquisition (with its memory halved from the ping-pong buffer) on the screen you press single and then it captures the next trigger with the full memory depth.

Yep, I actually did a quick video about this:

http://bit.ly/2bx0Jrr (http://bit.ly/2bx0Jrr)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 30, 2017, 10:56:21 pm
I was under the impression that all you have to do is to hit the Stop button on the InfiniiVision.

But the whole memory thing is not so important to me so I'm maybe the wrong person to discuss this.
Rather than stop, which leaves the last acquisition (with its memory halved from the ping-pong buffer) on the screen you press single and then it captures the next trigger with the full memory depth.
Are you serious? The 'trace of interest' is gone if you do that!  :palm: :palm:
That is the whole problem: You keep switching between single and continuous mode with this half baked memory solution. It is just too tedious and time consuming.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 30, 2017, 11:00:11 pm
I was under the impression that all you have to do is to hit the Stop button on the InfiniiVision.

But the whole memory thing is not so important to me so I'm maybe the wrong person to discuss this.
Rather than stop, which leaves the last acquisition (with its memory halved from the ping-pong buffer) on the screen you press single and then it captures the next trigger with the full memory depth.

Yep, I actually did a quick video about this:

http://bit.ly/2bx0Jrr (http://bit.ly/2bx0Jrr)
What would be useful, especially for less frequent trigger events,  is a "repeated single" mode, which would be the equivalent of pressing "single" after each trigger. Maybe press and hold the single button to activate this mode?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: scopeman on January 31, 2017, 04:01:28 am
All that new scope and still multplexed cursor, zoom and vertical controls. Why does every new scope have to be run like a damn video game?
Why not spend a few extra dollars and give me individual controls?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Faith on January 31, 2017, 04:15:21 am
Actually, wasn't Keysight supposed to be painting everything black now?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-keysight-changing-colours-beige-to-black/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-keysight-changing-colours-beige-to-black/)

Or is that going to be reserved for the MegaZoom V? :horse:
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 31, 2017, 06:31:22 am
I was under the impression that all you have to do is to hit the Stop button on the InfiniiVision.

But the whole memory thing is not so important to me so I'm maybe the wrong person to discuss this.
Rather than stop, which leaves the last acquisition (with its memory halved from the ping-pong buffer) on the screen you press single and then it captures the next trigger with the full memory depth.
Are you serious? The 'trace of interest' is gone if you do that!  :palm: :palm:
That is the whole problem: You keep switching between single and continuous mode with this half baked memory solution. It is just too tedious and time consuming.

I'd rather have the faster update and processing in the background whilst it's taking another capture. Losing half my memory isn't such a big deal when I know that if I want the full memory I can just hit the single button or deliberately set up a single shot event.
Granted, in modern terms, the 4MS memory in the Megazoom IV is long in the tooth. But I've hardly ever wanted/needed more memory than the Keysight offers anyway, but I appreciate the responsiveness every time I used it.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheSteve on January 31, 2017, 06:34:56 am
Actually, wasn't Keysight supposed to be painting everything black now?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-keysight-changing-colours-beige-to-black/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/is-keysight-changing-colours-beige-to-black/)

Or is that going to be reserved for the MegaZoom V? :horse:

The probes are black :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Someone on January 31, 2017, 07:08:22 am
Anyone noticed the DVM option is free on registration of the scope? The FFT has phase as well as magnitude? (and can we have that on the 2000X series as well, please Mr Keysight?) The bode plot function on the wavegen equipped models?
Not looking good:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/frequency-response-with-a-tek-md3000/msg1048001/#msg1048001 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/frequency-response-with-a-tek-md3000/msg1048001/#msg1048001)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 31, 2017, 07:48:16 am
And the ADC is 2Gsps on the 100MHz versions, not 1GHz split 4 ways like on the hacked Rigols?

2Gsps on both channel, It does not half when the 2nd channel is switched on.
They must be using the full 4Gsps capability of the ASIC. Nice.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ProBang2 on January 31, 2017, 08:19:21 am

Is there an estimated schedule, so we can expect a review/teardown video?   :popcorn:
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 31, 2017, 08:46:51 am
I was under the impression that all you have to do is to hit the Stop button on the InfiniiVision.

But the whole memory thing is not so important to me so I'm maybe the wrong person to discuss this.
Rather than stop, which leaves the last acquisition (with its memory halved from the ping-pong buffer) on the screen you press single and then it captures the next trigger with the full memory depth.
Are you serious? The 'trace of interest' is gone if you do that!  :palm: :palm:
That is the whole problem: You keep switching between single and continuous mode with this half baked memory solution. It is just too tedious and time consuming.
I'd rather have the faster update and processing in the background whilst it's taking another capture. Losing half my memory isn't such a big deal when I know that if I want the full memory I can just hit the single button or deliberately set up a single shot event.
Granted, in modern terms, the 4MS memory in the Megazoom IV is long in the tooth. But I've hardly ever wanted/needed more memory than the Keysight offers anyway, but I appreciate the responsiveness every time I used it.
I own an  Agilent DSO7104A and it is sitting on a shelve. Double buffering isn't a Keysight specific feature because most (all?) DSOs use double buffering  but simply fit doube the memory it says on the badge (which sometimes doubles the number of segments in segmented recording). Granted I don't need deep memory all the time but if you need to jump through hoops and start pushing buttons before capturing each trace in order to use all the memory then something is wrong.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 31, 2017, 08:50:56 am

Is there an estimated schedule, so we can expect a review/teardown video?   :popcorn:
I think the clue is in the title of this thread  :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 31, 2017, 09:26:55 am
I own an  Agilent DSO7104A and it is sitting on a shelve. Double buffering isn't a Keysight specific feature because most (all?) DSOs use double buffering  but simply fit doube the memory it says on the badge. Granted I don't need deep memory all the time but if you need to jump through hoops and start pushing buttons before capturing each trace in order to use all the memory then something is wrong.

Jumping through hoops like pushing the Single button instead of Stop?

If you are using the stop button then you are generally looking at a triggered repetitive signal, so it makes virtually no difference between pushing the Single button instead of the Stop button.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 31, 2017, 09:28:47 am

Is there an estimated schedule, so we can expect a review/teardown video?   :popcorn:
I think the clue is in the title of this thread  :)

A teaser will come sooner...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nfmax on January 31, 2017, 09:35:57 am
I was under the impression that all you have to do is to hit the Stop button on the InfiniiVision.

But the whole memory thing is not so important to me so I'm maybe the wrong person to discuss this.
Rather than stop, which leaves the last acquisition (with its memory halved from the ping-pong buffer) on the screen you press single and then it captures the next trigger with the full memory depth.
Are you serious? The 'trace of interest' is gone if you do that!  :palm: :palm:
That is the whole problem: You keep switching between single and continuous mode with this half baked memory solution. It is just too tedious and time consuming.
I'd rather have the faster update and processing in the background whilst it's taking another capture. Losing half my memory isn't such a big deal when I know that if I want the full memory I can just hit the single button or deliberately set up a single shot event.
Granted, in modern terms, the 4MS memory in the Megazoom IV is long in the tooth. But I've hardly ever wanted/needed more memory than the Keysight offers anyway, but I appreciate the responsiveness every time I used it.
I own an  Agilent DSO7104A and it is sitting on a shelve. Double buffering isn't a Keysight specific feature because most (all?) DSOs use double buffering  but simply fit doube the memory it says on the badge (which sometimes doubles the number of segments in segmented recording). Granted I don't need deep memory all the time but if you need to jump through hoops and start pushing buttons before capturing each trace in order to use all the memory then something is wrong.
Because your lightning-fast reaction time beats the Keysight's trigger system every time?  :palm:
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 31, 2017, 09:58:03 am
No. For many measurements you'll want to capture just one event. Like a UART message or certain signal. Usually this means pressing buttons on a generator, closing a switch, clicking a button in a GUI, etc. Having to also press a button on the oscilloscope to arm it just wastes time and adds extra room for error (or annoyance when putting the probe onto the test point also produces a trigger and you need to re-arm the scope once more). If you can let the oscilloscope stay in continuous trigger mode instead of single the scope does what it should do without needing manual arming and thus save time and work more comfortably.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Someone on January 31, 2017, 10:14:14 am
Because your lightning-fast reaction time beats the Keysight's trigger system every time?  :palm:
We've been here before. If its something happening frequently the realtime is nice and you press single to get a longer record, if its something rare but you still want the longer record press single. Some people get really worked up over their workflow and specific methods (the auto trigger timeout differences etc). I like using all sorts of scopes and appreciate the idea of providing as much memory as possible given the current configuration rather than synthetically limiting it to the worst case in all cases, it keeps marketing happy with a big headline specification but you're not missing out on anything.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 31, 2017, 11:13:45 am
No. For many measurements you'll want to capture just one event. Like a UART message or certain signal. Usually this means pressing buttons on a generator, closing a switch, clicking a button in a GUI, etc. Having to also press a button on the oscilloscope to arm it just wastes time and adds extra room for error (or annoyance when putting the probe onto the test point also produces a trigger and you need to re-arm the scope once more). If you can let the oscilloscope stay in continuous trigger mode instead of single the scope does what it should do without needing manual arming and thus save time and work more comfortably.

But in that case you STILL have to reach up to the scope and press the STOP button!
What's the difference between pressing the STOP button and the SINGLE button when your signal is re-triggering all the time?
Your argument seems to be almost entirely without merit.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nfmax on January 31, 2017, 11:20:23 am
No. For many measurements you'll want to capture just one event. Like a UART message or certain signal. Usually this means pressing buttons on a generator, closing a switch, clicking a button in a GUI, etc. Having to also press a button on the oscilloscope to arm it just wastes time and adds extra room for error (or annoyance when putting the probe onto the test point also produces a trigger and you need to re-arm the scope once more). If you can let the oscilloscope stay in continuous trigger mode instead of single the scope does what it should do without needing manual arming and thus save time and work more comfortably.

But in that case you STILL have to reach up to the scope and press the STOP button!
What's the difference between pressing the STOP button and the SINGLE button when your signal is re-triggering all the time?
Your argument seems to be almost entirely without merit.
What this situation does call for is a way of trivially easily automating the sequence of button pushes on the UUT & instruments to make the measurement. This level of 'disposable' automation is woefully lacking in current implementations of instrument control (which seem to be all about manufacturing test).
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on January 31, 2017, 11:22:21 am
No. For many measurements you'll want to capture just one event. Like a UART message or certain signal. Usually this means pressing buttons on a generator, closing a switch, clicking a button in a GUI, etc. Having to also press a button on the oscilloscope to arm it just wastes time and adds extra room for error (or annoyance when putting the probe onto the test point also produces a trigger and you need to re-arm the scope once more).

Wait, I think I see the problem.

No wonder it annoys you if you try to poke a probe into the device after you press the "single" button on the scope. That would annoy anybody.

The sensible approach is:
a) Connect the probe to the DUT
b) Press the "single" button on the scope
c) Press buttons on the generator, close the switch, clicking the button in a GUI, etc. to start the transmission.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nfmax on January 31, 2017, 11:26:19 am
"Alexa, tell Scope to arm trigger"  :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on January 31, 2017, 11:30:25 am
What this situation does call for is a way of trivially easily automating the sequence of button pushes on the UUT & instruments to make the measurement. This level of 'disposable' automation is woefully lacking in current implementations of instrument control (which seem to be all about manufacturing test).

I'm not sure what you're imagining but most oscilloscopes/etc. can be controlled by sending ASCII text to them.

This means any scripting language can control devices, or you can use something like Matlab.

(and if you want to use a simple electrical impulse to start recording then one of the BNC connectors on the front will do that).
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 31, 2017, 11:45:17 am
No. For many measurements you'll want to capture just one event. Like a UART message or certain signal. Usually this means pressing buttons on a generator, closing a switch, clicking a button in a GUI, etc. Having to also press a button on the oscilloscope to arm it just wastes time and adds extra room for error (or annoyance when putting the probe onto the test point also produces a trigger and you need to re-arm the scope once more). If you can let the oscilloscope stay in continuous trigger mode instead of single the scope does what it should do without needing manual arming and thus save time and work more comfortably.
But in that case you STILL have to reach up to the scope and press the STOP button!
No, because in case of a single event there will be nothing else to trigger on so pressing any buttons is not needed. On a decent DSO you can scroll/zoom in whatever you like without needing to press stop first.

edit: An example: sometimes I have to test/adjust a product which produces a signal which lasts for several seconds. The oscilloscope is triggered by a 'start of test' signal. Having to press the 'single' button is an unnecessary step but on my DSO7104A I have to do it because otherwise the memory isn't deep enough to get all of the signal with enough detail. Well guess which scope didn't got used on the last batch!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: RGB255_0_0 on January 31, 2017, 12:02:30 pm
"Alexa, tell Scope to arm trigger"  :)
In that case Keysight already have a scope out to do just that. Happy days nctnico  :-DD
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 31, 2017, 01:12:46 pm
No. For many measurements you'll want to capture just one event. Like a UART message or certain signal. Usually this means pressing buttons on a generator, closing a switch, clicking a button in a GUI, etc. Having to also press a button on the oscilloscope to arm it just wastes time and adds extra room for error (or annoyance when putting the probe onto the test point also produces a trigger and you need to re-arm the scope once more). If you can let the oscilloscope stay in continuous trigger mode instead of single the scope does what it should do without needing manual arming and thus save time and work more comfortably.
But in that case you STILL have to reach up to the scope and press the STOP button!
No, because in case of a single event there will be nothing else to trigger on so pressing any buttons is not needed.

 :palm:
That's called setting your scope up to single shot trigger in the first place.
You said this and I'll repeat it:
If you can let the oscilloscope stay in continuous trigger mode instead of single the scope does what it should do without needing manual arming and thus save time and work more comfortably.

Continuous trigger mode is either using Normal trigger mode or auto trigger mode.
Auto trigger mode will continuously trigger as you said, in which case you have to reach up to press STOP anyway, so you might as well press SINGLE instead and it will automatically trigger!
If you are talking normal trigger mode then that's NOT the "continuous trigger you speak of, and it's something you have to set up before hand to capture those events, so you might as well single shot capture.

Quote
edit: An example: sometimes I have to test/adjust a product which produces a signal which lasts for several seconds. The oscilloscope is triggered by a 'start of test' signal. Having to press the 'single' button is an unnecessary step but on my DSO7104A I have to do it because otherwise the memory isn't deep enough to get all of the signal with enough detail. Well guess which scope didn't got used on the last batch!

 :palm:
If you are trying to capture an event that you want detail of then you set up the scope to trigger from that "start of test signal" and you capture the signal at the optimum timebase to get the best resolution. This applies to any scope.
The only time your argument makes sense is if you are using say a USB scope with infinite recording memory and you just hit STOP whenever you feel like it and then scroll back through the infinite record until you find your signal.

Sorry, but you argument still does not stand up.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 31, 2017, 01:56:53 pm
No. For many measurements you'll want to capture just one event. Like a UART message or certain signal. Usually this means pressing buttons on a generator, closing a switch, clicking a button in a GUI, etc. Having to also press a button on the oscilloscope to arm it just wastes time and adds extra room for error (or annoyance when putting the probe onto the test point also produces a trigger and you need to re-arm the scope once more). If you can let the oscilloscope stay in continuous trigger mode instead of single the scope does what it should do without needing manual arming and thus save time and work more comfortably.
But in that case you STILL have to reach up to the scope and press the STOP button!
No, because in case of a single event there will be nothing else to trigger on so pressing any buttons is not needed.

 :palm:
That's called setting your scope up to single shot trigger in the first place.
You said this and I'll repeat it:
If you can let the oscilloscope stay in continuous trigger mode instead of single the scope does what it should do without needing manual arming and thus save time and work more comfortably.

Continuous trigger mode is either using Normal trigger mode or auto trigger mode.
Auto trigger mode will continuously trigger as you said, in which case you have to reach up to press STOP anyway, so you might as well press SINGLE instead and it will automatically trigger!
If you are talking normal trigger mode then that's NOT the "continuous trigger you speak of, and it's something you have to set up before hand to capture those events, so you might as well single shot capture.

Quote
edit: An example: sometimes I have to test/adjust a product which produces a signal which lasts for several seconds. The oscilloscope is triggered by a 'start of test' signal. Having to press the 'single' button is an unnecessary step but on my DSO7104A I have to do it because otherwise the memory isn't deep enough to get all of the signal with enough detail. Well guess which scope didn't got used on the last batch!

 :palm:
If you are trying to capture an event that you want detail of then you set up the scope to trigger from that "start of test signal" and you capture the signal at the optimum timebase to get the best resolution. This applies to any scope.
The only time your argument makes sense is if you are using say a USB scope with infinite recording memory and you just hit STOP whenever you feel like it and then scroll back through the infinite record until you find your signal.

Sorry, but you argument still does not stand up.

There is definmitely a use case for repeated-single type operation to maximise memory, without having to press any scope buttons:

Waveform produced on demand from another system (e.g. press a key on the PC to send a data packet) , where you're zoomed in on a point a long way after the trigger, and are viewing both the "overview" and the zoomed-in part at the same time, so you need the maximum memory, but don't want to have to keep pressing "single" every time.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 31, 2017, 02:01:46 pm
If you are trying to capture an event that you want detail of then you set up the scope to trigger from that "start of test signal" and you capture the signal at the optimum timebase to get the best resolution. This applies to any scope.
The only time your argument makes sense is if you are using say a USB scope with infinite recording memory and you just hit STOP whenever you feel like it and then scroll back through the infinite record until you find your signal.
I am triggering at the start of the test signal! Just not on the signal itself but the signal which is 1ms ahead of it which on a timebase of 200ms/s is not a significant delay. Please read the example again and you'll understand that having to press an extra button over and over again during adjustment to get the full memory depth on a scope just isn't helpfull. What you seem to miss is that you don't need single shot mode to capture a single event! Just leave the scope in normal mode and make sure there are no more triggers.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nfmax on January 31, 2017, 02:09:30 pm
If you are trying to capture an event that you want detail of then you set up the scope to trigger from that "start of test signal" and you capture the signal at the optimum timebase to get the best resolution. This applies to any scope.
The only time your argument makes sense is if you are using say a USB scope with infinite recording memory and you just hit STOP whenever you feel like it and then scroll back through the infinite record until you find your signal.
I am triggering at the start of the test signal! Just not on the signal itself but the signal which is 1ms ahead of it which on a timebase of 200ms/s is not a significant delay. Please read the example again and you'll understand that having to press an extra button over and over again during adjustment to get the full memory depth on a scope just isn't helpfull. What you seem to miss is that you don't need single shot mode to capture a single event! Just leave the scope in normal mode and make sure there are no more triggers.
OK, I see what you mean about the need to press the button every time. Do you need to look at the whole signal from the time of trigger to the point of interest - i.e. do you need to scroll through it every time? If not, you could always set a trigger delay: generally, this can be longer than the captured record, though it depends on the exact model of scope and the timebase setting.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 31, 2017, 02:17:53 pm
I'd like to see the entire signal every time just to check for any anomalies which may point to a manufacturing defect. Also a single capture allows to check the levels of all test waveforms in one go.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 31, 2017, 02:22:01 pm
There is definmitely a use case for repeated-single type operation to maximise memory, without having to press any scope buttons:

Waveform produced on demand from another system (e.g. press a key on the PC to send a data packet) , where you're zoomed in on a point a long way after the trigger, and are viewing both the "overview" and the zoomed-in part at the same time, so you need the maximum memory, but don't want to have to keep pressing "single" every time.

Sure, it's called a normal mode triggering.
Does the Keysight lose half the memory in Normal mode, or is it only Auto mode?
In either case it's not like it's 1/10th the memory or something, it's only half (and that gives a great performance tradeoff), and there is a way to use it all if needed.
If you know this and are concerned about it then you'd consider this spec when buying your scope. Or put a sticker of the front of the unit that say 2Mpoint instead of 4Mpoint to remind yourself.

nctnico is making a huge deal out of something that isn't.
Not having enough memory for a particular niche requirement of timebase etc is also called Murphy's Law.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 31, 2017, 02:26:29 pm
I am triggering at the start of the test signal! Just not on the signal itself but the signal which is 1ms ahead of it which on a timebase of 200ms/s is not a significant delay.

Then just use a delayed trigger, that's what it's for!
If you are going to argue that it could be random time period etc so you are forced to do it without delayed triggering, then no amount of memory is going to beat Murphy's law.
You are :horse: a niche requirement.

It's not like the Keysight scope is just stupid and loses half it's memory for nothing, it's a deliberate tradeoff that gives you big advantages in everyday use, not just some niche trigger scenario. It why as you said before, most scopes do it.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nfmax on January 31, 2017, 02:28:49 pm
I'd like to see the entire signal every time just to check for any anomalies which may point to a manufacturing defect. Also a single capture allows to check the levels of all test waveforms in one go.
OK so it looks like you will be adjusting the scope controls after every capture anyway. Presumably you have control over the test signal so you don't get taken by surprise by an unexpected trigger while you are in the middle of zooming & panning about. What might be handy in that case is a scope function that let you use the external trigger input as an 'arm' input for single-shot capture, but I don't off hand know of any scopes that let you do this. Otherwise, yes, you really do need a very long capture memory buffer, and no, you really don't care much about waveform update rate!

I might suggest an entry level scope like the 1000X series is not what you want...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 31, 2017, 02:34:31 pm
It's not like the Keysight scope is just stupid and loses half it's memory for nothing, it's a deliberate tradeoff that gives you big advantages in everyday use, not just some niche trigger scenario. It why as you said before, most scopes do it.
You have misread. Most scopes have DOUBLE the memory fitted so they can provide the memory depth it says on the badge even when using double buffering. Some share the memory over the channels but Keysight is among the worst because you only get 1/4 of the memory (or less if you enable digital channels and reference traces) with all channels enabled in non-single shot mode. Please read the manual of a relative modern Keysight scope and see for yourself. You have to dig really deep in the menus for the scope to show the actual memory depth; it is well hidden.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nfmax on January 31, 2017, 02:44:15 pm
Presumably the 1000X series, which are only two-channel scopes, do not have the split of memory between two channels of a linked pair. It's not clear what happens when you are using the trigger input as channel '2 1/2', but it might cost you memory: turning on reference waveforms will also cost you memory, as will using segments.

It sounds like your beef is more with labelling the memory size based on the maximum capture record length. Labelling based on the minimum might be evn more misleading though, as it would have to take into account you might have 50 segments, and reference waveforms on, as well as being in run mode. That would be less than 50,000 points!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 31, 2017, 04:15:35 pm
I am triggering at the start of the test signal! Just not on the signal itself but the signal which is 1ms ahead of it which on a timebase of 200ms/s is not a significant delay.

Then just use a delayed trigger, that's what it's for!
If you are going to argue that it could be random time period etc so you are forced to do it without delayed triggering, then no amount of memory is going to beat Murphy's law.
You are :horse: a niche requirement.

It's not like the Keysight scope is just stupid and loses half it's memory for nothing, it's a deliberate tradeoff that gives you big advantages in everyday use, not just some niche trigger scenario. It why as you said before, most scopes do it.
True but it would be trivial for them to add a function to maximuse memory when needed, and the erare times it really is needed, and pressing Single every time is a pain - e.g. you're manually sending packets, maybe a couple a second,  and watching for the one that causes a problem.
 Literally the equivalent of pressing "single" after each trigger is all that would be needed.
 
 
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: eeviking on January 31, 2017, 04:58:21 pm
Is the bode plot function useful for audio stuff or is it just a gimmick?
Any other cheap scopes that have this?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on January 31, 2017, 05:00:09 pm
Literally the equivalent of pressing "single" after each trigger is all that would be needed.

That sounds exactly like "Normal" trigger mode (on my DS1054Z) to me. I'd be very surprised if other DSOs don't do it.

Normal: After this mode is selected, the oscilloscope enters the wait-for-trigger state and starts searching for trigger signals that meet the specified condition. If trigger signals that meets the specified condition are found, “T’D” is displayed in the running status bar and stable waveform is displayed. Otherwise, “WAIT” is displayed and the waveform of the last trigger is displayed.



Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fgrir on January 31, 2017, 05:25:38 pm
Literally the equivalent of pressing "single" after each trigger is all that would be needed.

That sounds exactly like "Normal" trigger mode (on my DS1054Z) to me. I'd be very surprised if other DSOs don't do it.


It is normal mode, but he is wanting a normal mode that uses the full memory length of the scope at the expense of the fast retriggering capability gained from double-buffering.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 31, 2017, 05:41:11 pm
Literally the equivalent of pressing "single" after each trigger is all that would be needed.
That sounds exactly like "Normal" trigger mode (on my DS1054Z) to me. I'd be very surprised if other DSOs don't do it.
It is normal mode, but he is wanting a normal mode that uses the full memory length of the scope at the expense of the fast retriggering capability gained from double-buffering.
Again: most (all) other DSOs have double buffering without sacrificing half the memory depth so there is no issue needing single mode to get the full memory length. THAT is the big difference!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on January 31, 2017, 06:04:57 pm
Is the bode plot function useful for audio stuff or is it just a gimmick?
Any other cheap scopes that have this?
not that i know of, not at 20 MHz at least. i'd use it as a cheap-o VNA, to test components/closed loop frequency responce
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: voltsandjolts on January 31, 2017, 06:53:34 pm
Is the bode plot function useful for audio stuff or is it just a gimmick?
Any other cheap scopes that have this?

Digilent Analog Discovery (10MHz BW Bode)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nfmax on January 31, 2017, 07:29:53 pm
Literally the equivalent of pressing "single" after each trigger is all that would be needed.
That sounds exactly like "Normal" trigger mode (on my DS1054Z) to me. I'd be very surprised if other DSOs don't do it.
It is normal mode, but he is wanting a normal mode that uses the full memory length of the scope at the expense of the fast retriggering capability gained from double-buffering.
Again: most (all) other DSOs have double buffering without sacrificing half the memory depth so there is no issue needing single mode to get the full memory length. THAT is the big difference!

If you are going to double buffer, you have to have twice as much memory as is in a buffer - the clue is in the name. The Keysight scope lets you turn off double buffering, to recover the other half of the memory, but only in single shot mode. It would presumably be possiblefor it also to have another, different repetitive, normal trigger mode that didn't use double buffering, to give you twice the depth but at a much slower waveform update rate. That would suit your application. Others: not so much. Or use a higher spec scope that just has more memory. The S series go to 800M points, I think.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Neganur on January 31, 2017, 07:34:22 pm
The Analog Discovery 2 is actually pretty nice for 10MHz bode plotting and has 2x 14 bit 100MSa/s ADCs and DACs (but only up to 16KSa memory since the resource is shared). It can also show the plot in Nichols and Nyquist format directly.

The AWB gen in the InfiniiVision is IIRC 10bit 100 MSa/s and I guess the scope can oversample to get more than 8 bit amplitude resolution in the Bode plot applet. Either way, it's a really useful little thing to have in the scope at the push of a button.

The attachment is a Bode plot of an LC circuit that I swept with the Analog Discovery 2.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 31, 2017, 07:58:51 pm
Literally the equivalent of pressing "single" after each trigger is all that would be needed.
That sounds exactly like "Normal" trigger mode (on my DS1054Z) to me. I'd be very surprised if other DSOs don't do it.
It is normal mode, but he is wanting a normal mode that uses the full memory length of the scope at the expense of the fast retriggering capability gained from double-buffering.
Again: most (all) other DSOs have double buffering without sacrificing half the memory depth so there is no issue needing single mode to get the full memory length. THAT is the big difference!
If you are going to double buffer, you have to have twice as much memory as is in a buffer - the clue is in the name.
Deep sigh... Don't you read/understand what I write? Other DSO makers just fit twice the amount of memory because they want to hold up to their claims regarding memory depth while also keeping the performance up. It is that simple because memory is cheap (especially compared to the price of a scope).

Actually Dave isn't far off with his 1/10th remark. If you enable 2 channels and 16 digital channels on a 4Mpts 3000T X series you'll probably have 1/8th of the memory depth for the analog channels (500kpts for analog and 500kpts for the digital channels). Unfortunately the datasheet isn't clear on how memory is divided it only says that  16 digital channels with the analog channels disabled gets you 2Mpts maximum (maximum=single shot mode and thus 1Mpts in continuous trigger mode). Assuming 1Mpts gets divided equally between analog and digital channels this leaves you with 500kpts. And we didn't even enable reference traces so maybe 1/10th of the memory depth of what it says on the badge is achievable.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 31, 2017, 08:59:34 pm
Again: most (all) other DSOs have double buffering without sacrificing half the memory depth so there is no issue needing single mode to get the full memory length. THAT is the big difference!

You do realise you are arguing over semantics of how a specification is defined?
You are the only one complaining about this, so if if it's such a big deal to you then like I said before, post a big sticker over the front of the machine that says 2M instead of 4M and then you can sleep well at night.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 31, 2017, 09:33:10 pm
Again: most (all) other DSOs have double buffering without sacrificing half the memory depth so there is no issue needing single mode to get the full memory length. THAT is the big difference!
You do realise you are arguing over semantics of how a specification is defined?
That is one way of putting it but you can't deny that Keysight is very obscure about the memory depth in the various usage scenarios.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on January 31, 2017, 09:34:36 pm
@nctnico: Do you remember that picture which you did send some time ago, where you suggested a solution to put a "pyjamas" with the picture of a dog, over the GW-Instek scope, for people who don't like the look&feeling of that oscilloscope? I was looking for that picture, and refer to it, as per Dave's comment about the sticker, to hide the specs. But unfortunately, I can not find that post from you anymore. Which is a real pity! :) Maybe you can help out here! Hope you recall the picture! :)

Maybe Wuerstchenhund can help out as well, as he was active in the same thread as well, if I recall correctly :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nfmax on January 31, 2017, 10:19:48 pm
So would you be happier with a scope that delivered 1 megasample of memory, on all four channels, with reference waveforms on, digital channels on, double buffering on, segmentation on, and (say) 100 segments? Because that scope would have to have 3.2 gigasamples of memory installed. And even if you just wanted to make only a single-shot capture of a single channel, you would still get just that 1 megasample, and all the rest of that memory would have to be left idle, just in case you decided to turn the other stuff on. I think some people (though maybe not you) would complain about all this expensive memory that was unusable except in some contrived situation, when it could have been gainfully employed.

And remember that in the low-end Keysights (the Infinivision series) the acquisition memory is on the ASIC: it is not possible to increase it 'just by adding cheap RAM chips', only by doubling up the number of ASICs (3000A series and above)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: kcbrown on January 31, 2017, 10:38:24 pm
Literally the equivalent of pressing "single" after each trigger is all that would be needed.
That sounds exactly like "Normal" trigger mode (on my DS1054Z) to me. I'd be very surprised if other DSOs don't do it.
It is normal mode, but he is wanting a normal mode that uses the full memory length of the scope at the expense of the fast retriggering capability gained from double-buffering.
Again: most (all) other DSOs have double buffering without sacrificing half the memory depth so there is no issue needing single mode to get the full memory length. THAT is the big difference!

Well, no.  They have double buffering without sacrificing the *advertised* memory depth.  But they sacrifice *actual* memory depth to achieve that.

There's another way to look at this:  all the other scopes fail to use the entirety of their memory in single shot mode -- they only use half of it, because they only record a single buffer's worth of samples when there's another buffer that they could use to augment the total.

Right?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on January 31, 2017, 10:52:58 pm
Literally the equivalent of pressing "single" after each trigger is all that would be needed.
That sounds exactly like "Normal" trigger mode (on my DS1054Z) to me. I'd be very surprised if other DSOs don't do it.
It is normal mode, but he is wanting a normal mode that uses the full memory length of the scope at the expense of the fast retriggering capability gained from double-buffering.
Again: most (all) other DSOs have double buffering without sacrificing half the memory depth so there is no issue needing single mode to get the full memory length. THAT is the big difference!

Well, no.  They have double buffering without sacrificing the *advertised* memory depth.  But they sacrifice *actual* memory depth to achieve that.

There's another way to look at this:  all the other scopes fail to use the entirety of their memory in single shot mode -- they only use half of it, because they only record a single buffer's worth of samples when there's another buffer that they could use to augment the total.

Right?
Not quite. Most other DSOs will use all the memory in segmented mode so the memory is used to it's fullest extend when needed the most. I guess my beef is that Keysight just isn't open about the amount of memory versus the operating mode and (worse) the fact the amount of memory available is actually way less then specified in many common usage scenarios. I wouldn't make such a problem out of it if Keysight had put a table in their datasheets which clearly indicates how the memory is used versus operating mode and what the limitations are. Now users/owners get a nasty surprise if they need the maximum memory depth long after they bought the scope.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on January 31, 2017, 11:13:14 pm
Not to mention peak detect acquisition mode, which reduces memory by either 2 or 4 - don't recall what it is on the DSOX  but it was 4x on the old DSO6000

I'd agree that the x2 reduction in stated memory in the most commonly used acquisition modes isn't that obvious til you look into it, and the omission of a simple way for the user to select between maximum memory and maximum refresh rate is a pity.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 31, 2017, 11:25:47 pm
Literally the equivalent of pressing "single" after each trigger is all that would be needed.
That sounds exactly like "Normal" trigger mode (on my DS1054Z) to me. I'd be very surprised if other DSOs don't do it.
It is normal mode, but he is wanting a normal mode that uses the full memory length of the scope at the expense of the fast retriggering capability gained from double-buffering.
Again: most (all) other DSOs have double buffering without sacrificing half the memory depth so there is no issue needing single mode to get the full memory length. THAT is the big difference!

Well, no.  They have double buffering without sacrificing the *advertised* memory depth.  But they sacrifice *actual* memory depth to achieve that.

There's another way to look at this:  all the other scopes fail to use the entirety of their memory in single shot mode -- they only use half of it, because they only record a single buffer's worth of samples when there's another buffer that they could use to augment the total.

Right?
Not quite. Most other DSOs will use all the memory in segmented mode so the memory is used to it's fullest extend when needed the most.

Most people for most situations do not use segmented memory mode.
Funny when the argument is turned on it's head you don't seem to have a problem with a scope using only half it's physical memory in the most commonly used mode (single shot), but when Keysight sacrife half the physical memory for another reason you think it's the end of the world?
 :-//

Quote
I guess my beef is that Keysight just isn't open about the amount of memory versus the operating mode and (worse) the fact the amount of memory available is actually way less then specified in many common usage scenarios. I wouldn't make such a problem out of it if Keysight had put a table in their datasheets which clearly indicates how the memory is used versus operating mode and what the limitations are. Now users/owners get a nasty surprise if they need the maximum memory depth long after they bought the scope.

Is that not the same for most scope manufactures?
But I don't disagree, it could use a clear explanation in the manual in it's own section perhaps.
Actually, what I'd really like to see is the actual memory depth being used in the current mode displayed permanently on the screen like they do the sample rate. This is a very deliberate decision by Keysight to leave it out and it's always bugged me a bit. I guess their rationale is that people shouldn't have to think about memory depth, the scope "just works" and optimises everything. I don't think that's a bad argument. One of the things I like about the X-series is they "just work", and you don't have to fiddle with stuff like you do on many other scopes.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on January 31, 2017, 11:32:15 pm
You do realise you are arguing over semantics of how a specification is defined?
That is one way of putting it but you can't deny that Keysight is very obscure about the memory depth in the various usage scenarios.
[/quote]

I don't deny that, see my last post, it's very deliberate on their part.
For something like the "hobby level" 1000 X-Series you could argue that's not a bad thing, it's one less thing beginners need to be concerned with.
I for one most times like not having to worry about the memory depth, it's one of the joys of using the X-Series.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on January 31, 2017, 11:33:24 pm
They already were fuzzy about those things back in the HP54620C logic analyzer.
Nowhere in the datasheet or user manual can you find a table with the sample rate and memory size when all 16 digital channels are in use. Only way to find out, is try and check in the user interface.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: kcbrown on February 01, 2017, 12:12:21 am
Well, no.  They have double buffering without sacrificing the *advertised* memory depth.  But they sacrifice *actual* memory depth to achieve that.

There's another way to look at this:  all the other scopes fail to use the entirety of their memory in single shot mode -- they only use half of it, because they only record a single buffer's worth of samples when there's another buffer that they could use to augment the total.

Right?
Not quite. Most other DSOs will use all the memory in segmented mode so the memory is used to it's fullest extend when needed the most.

Well, I would expect it would use all the memory save for one segment's worth, so that it can maintain double buffering at the segment level.  But that's usually a fraction of the total memory so it's probably not worth mentioning.


Quote
I guess my beef is that Keysight just isn't open about the amount of memory versus the operating mode and (worse) the fact the amount of memory available is actually way less then specified in many common usage scenarios. I wouldn't make such a problem out of it if Keysight had put a table in their datasheets which clearly indicates how the memory is used versus operating mode and what the limitations are. Now users/owners get a nasty surprise if they need the maximum memory depth long after they bought the scope.

How many vendors provide that kind of information in the first place?  It sounds like the main problem is that Keysight advertises the actual amount of memory the scope provides, but doesn't go out of their way to say that the number of recorded samples will generally be half that when double buffering is active (which is not the case in single shot mode, and I wouldn't expect it to be the case in segmented memory mode either).

This also raises the question of whether or not Keysight's scope will use the full amount of available memory when in segmented memory mode.  One would expect it to since there would be no benefit to using half the memory for "double" buffering (one need only use a single segment's worth).
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: memset on February 01, 2017, 06:01:30 am
They must be using the full 4Gsps capability of the ASIC. Nice.
Hope you're going to make detailed photos of the board for the teardown review :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on February 01, 2017, 06:05:29 am
Ditto. Also please dave, have an extensive look at the decoding/triggering menu to see which inputs can be sources for the various digital channels :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: snoopy on February 01, 2017, 07:01:13 am
Hey Dave

Are you going to do a drop test on this scope like you did with the Tek MDO ?

cheers
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Someone on February 01, 2017, 07:21:07 am
Literally the equivalent of pressing "single" after each trigger is all that would be needed.
That sounds exactly like "Normal" trigger mode (on my DS1054Z) to me. I'd be very surprised if other DSOs don't do it.
It is normal mode, but he is wanting a normal mode that uses the full memory length of the scope at the expense of the fast retriggering capability gained from double-buffering.
Again: most (all) other DSOs have double buffering without sacrificing half the memory depth so there is no issue needing single mode to get the full memory length. THAT is the big difference!
Most other scopes require you to menu dive and drastically reduce the memory depth (or impair other functions) to improve realtime update rate, with the Keysight its all done automatically for you. Everything comes with plusses and minuses, and you prefer other scopes, we get it. Or we could take your inflammatory approach

OTHER MANUFACTURERS ONLY LET YOU USE HALF THE MEMORY DEPTH~!!!@@! THEY'RE CHEATING YOU OUT OF FUNCTIONALITY^^@!!@!!@

Literally the equivalent of pressing "single" after each trigger is all that would be needed.

That sounds exactly like "Normal" trigger mode (on my DS1054Z) to me. I'd be very surprised if other DSOs don't do it.

Normal: After this mode is selected, the oscilloscope enters the wait-for-trigger state and starts searching for trigger signals that meet the specified condition. If trigger signals that meets the specified condition are found, “T’D” is displayed in the running status bar and stable waveform is displayed. Otherwise, “WAIT” is displayed and the waveform of the last trigger is displayed.

Normal trigger simply waits and displays the last trace until a new trigger arrives, Auto trigger adds imaginary/speculative triggers to the acquisition system to keep the current signal on the screen whether its actually triggering or not. It doesn't have anything to do with the acquisition memory.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 01, 2017, 02:19:52 pm
Most other scopes require you to menu dive and drastically reduce the memory depth (or impair other functions) to improve realtime update rate, with the Keysight its all done automatically for you.
That is not the issue at all! The issue is that the actual memory depth in the most common usage scenarios is way less than what it says in the specifications from Keysight. The specification is in a grey area where it isn't a lie (from a legal standpoint) but it isn't the truth either. If Rigol or Siglent would pull a stunt like that the world would be too small but when it comes to Keysight a lot of people seem to see nothing but pink elephants and clear blue sky.  :palm: I start to feel like the boy in the story about the the emperor's new clothes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Boson on February 01, 2017, 09:27:30 pm
The specification is in a grey area where it isn't a lie (from a legal standpoint) but it isn't the truth either.

This industry standard for asian scope. Maybe Good Will Instek only exception? Asian scope for people who like put Tesla into autopilot and crawl to back seat. They never understand why slow & correct better, not fast & almost correct... or even very wrong. Possible it ok while people can choose and buy what like. Not ok when customer cannot choose and must crawl to back seat because no option. Hope Tek and other not give up and will offer front seat & manual control in future also to electronic top gun ace  :-+
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: saturation on February 01, 2017, 11:40:41 pm
This might be something markedly innovative, the new Keysight 1000x design's performance/price.  They emphasize the words 'cheap oscilloscope'  and "Scrap the Toys, Get a Real Oscilloscope" quite a bit.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-scope-1st-march-2017/?action=dlattach;attach=289121;image)

If the spec sheet is true, then the scope doesn't offer vastly more than competitors already in this niche [ except maybe the built in Bode plot and that their scopes live up to the spec sheet ], but if we have a true Keysight design  [ not an OEM rebadge or an slow and aging Tek TBS series ] aggressively priced at very cost conscious hobby-maker-entry level edu market, it will show that a major manufacturer recognizes the importance of this market not just for sales, but even as a loss leader, for brand recognition and as "taste test" units. 

IIRC, the original Agilent 1000 and Rigol 1052e entered the market at high $800 range, and are still in catalog for $520 and $330 respectively.   So given these clues it looks like Keysight could easily target $300 for the base model but it would be truly industry changing if in the $200, because then it would be position to take on the entire hobby market DSO as well, as far down as the likes of DSO nanos.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-scope-1st-march-2017/?action=dlattach;attach=289133;image)

There isn't much to see, but looking at this one board, it reminds me of the highly integrated and modular GWInstek series using Zynq, so they can get performance and lower overall price and easily swap in out modules to get the other models made.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-scope-1st-march-2017/?action=dlattach;attach=289119;image)



If it's $650 as per the Rupee document then I don't think this will in any way dissuade those to buy the 1054Z. Memory depth looks low compared to the Rigol to me...

And that would be $650 for the educational model (limited to 50 MHz without upgrade option, and probably limited to customers in the educational market). I would assume around $1000 for the 70 MHz "regular" model.

You will be pleasantly surprised

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 02, 2017, 12:03:16 am
The board is small but look what Tektronix made almost 20 years ago for their TDS200 series:
(http://www.mikrocontroller.net/attachment/231199/board.jpg)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Someone on February 02, 2017, 03:24:40 am
Literally the equivalent of pressing "single" after each trigger is all that would be needed.
That sounds exactly like "Normal" trigger mode (on my DS1054Z) to me. I'd be very surprised if other DSOs don't do it.
It is normal mode, but he is wanting a normal mode that uses the full memory length of the scope at the expense of the fast retriggering capability gained from double-buffering.
Again: most (all) other DSOs have double buffering without sacrificing half the memory depth so there is no issue needing single mode to get the full memory length. THAT is the big difference!
Most other scopes require you to menu dive and drastically reduce the memory depth (or impair other functions) to improve realtime update rate, with the Keysight its all done automatically for you. Everything comes with plusses and minuses, and you prefer other scopes, we get it.
That is not the issue at all! The issue is that the actual memory depth in the most common usage scenarios is way less than what it says in the specifications from Keysight. The specification is in a grey area where it isn't a lie (from a legal standpoint) but it isn't the truth either. If Rigol or Siglent would pull a stunt like that the world would be too small but when it comes to Keysight a lot of people seem to see nothing but pink elephants and clear blue sky.  :palm: I start to feel like the boy in the story about the the emperor's new clothes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes)
These are counterpoints to your view, you don't like that the memory is less in many use cases but there are many products with many (headline or not) specifications that only apply in ideal or corner cases. All scope manufacturers are doing this in some way, its standard marketing.

You're happy to trade off realtime performance for increased memory depth, and there are products which allow you to do this. Its not a major failing of the Keysight products products that don't offer this control as it brings other benefits to trade off against which will be valued differently by different customers.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 02, 2017, 04:18:46 am
If the spec sheet is true, then the scope doesn't offer vastly more than competitors already in this niche [ except maybe the built in Bode plot and that their scopes live up to the spec sheet ], but if we have a true Keysight design  [ not an OEM rebadge or an slow and aging Tek TBS series ]

It is a Keysight design.

Quote
aggressively priced at very cost conscious hobby-maker-entry level edu market, it will show that a major manufacturer recognizes the importance of this market not just for sales, but even as a loss leader, for brand recognition and as "taste test" units. 

I was impressed by the price first time I heard it. Especially for a Keysight.
Just like in the previous X-Series you can bet they will allow themselves room to move on features and price further down the track.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on February 02, 2017, 05:02:27 am
... So given these clues it looks like Keysight could easily target $300 for the base model but it would be truly industry changing if in the $200, because then it would be position to take on the entire hobby market DSO as well, as far down as the likes of DSO nanos.

 :-DD

Come on. How would they explain that pricing to their customers buying the high-end scopes?! They need to keep some consistency in their overall pricing structure, and I don't see them re-positioning Keysight as the cheapjack of oscilloscopes.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: scopeman on February 02, 2017, 05:46:53 am
Comments on memory (and math) and partial rant.

I do not know why all of the scopes released these days do not have a bare minimum of 2Mpts per channel of segmentable acquisition memory, quad trace (double memory for 2 and double again for 4) with a separate external trigger and also a trigger out jack (not just some barely useful mask pass/fail output).

My LeCroy 9354AL has all of these features and has had them since the 1990's. Not to mention independent cursor and zoom knobs.

True it does not have independent knobs for vertical gain and position (the two channel version does) but considering the math, trending and histogram capabilities it was light years ahead of the Tek and HP scopes at the time.

I still think if someone made a scope with those features (even 100MHz one) with the same zoom and cursor split screen (multiple grid as well) display method as the 93XX series they would have a really useful scope. Everyone seemed to copy the Tek window and cursor method which IMHO is a much poorer presentation. I really like the single movable up and down arrow cursors (in relative mode) that the 93XX used. Very clean display and you always know where you are. The zoom or math function window for a trace can be placed in a separate grid with the zoom area highlighted in the main trace just like the old analog scopes. Couldn't be simpler. On the quad trace machine you do have the distraction of switching the Vertical knobs from trace to trace with push buttons but at least you are not stuck with one knob to switch between cursors and zoom. or worse yet multiplex the vertical position controls with the cursor. What a PITA. It makes me wonder if the builders of scopes ever ask the people who actually are going to use their products before they make a blue million of them. Remember the first HP DSO's that were keypad entry only. And then the keypad and the single wheelie knob. They were awful.

When I drive a scope I want knobs and encoders are dirt cheap and I don't mind if my scope was a little wider to get them.

Yes there are times when I want a touch screen keypad for precise cursor location or zoom control but I use that as a supplement, not as the main way to drive the scope. If I wanted that I would buy a USB connected box like a PicoScope and drive it with Windows or Linux.  Yes I have one, and they are very convenient to toss in a briefcase but not my primary scope for sure!

Now mind you modern scopes have beautiful color LCD's and higher update rates and do a better job of interfacing with Windows (or run windows) but there is still something nice about powering up your scope and having it ready to work in 30 seconds after power on. My newer LeCroy's, although they are great instruments in their own right, need the time for Windows to boot to be useful. 

That can take a while. But that is the price you pay for the additional processing power. Maybe I should just leave the power on!

Now I will have to admit that I have not had the opportunity to drive any of the new Keysight (I almost typed Agilent there) scopes. Maybe I'll win one and do a review.

Sam
W3OHM

Independent LeCroy_Owners_Group Moderator on Yahoo! Groups
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: snoopy on February 02, 2017, 06:11:40 am
The board is small but look what Tektronix made almost 20 years ago for their TDS200 series:
(http://www.mikrocontroller.net/attachment/231199/board.jpg)

Amazing what they did with a Motorola 68000 processor. My Tektronix TDS784A only has a 68020 running at 16MHz but could capture over 350,000 waveforms per second !!

cheers
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 02, 2017, 08:06:52 am
Amazing what they did with a Motorola 68000 processor. My Tektronix TDS784A only has a 68020 running at 16MHz but could capture over 350,000 waveforms per second !!

It wouldn't be the 68020 doing that waveform update rate.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on February 02, 2017, 09:44:00 am
... So given these clues it looks like Keysight could easily target $300 for the base model but it would be truly industry changing if in the $200, because then it would be position to take on the entire hobby market DSO as well, as far down as the likes of DSO nanos.
Come on. How would they explain that pricing to their customers buying the high-end scopes?! They need to keep some consistency in their overall pricing structure, and I don't see them re-positioning Keysight as the cheapjack of oscilloscopes.

Yep.

This is the real problem, they have to keep an eye on their expensive gear so the cheap stuff has to be crippled in some way.

It makes sense that this is targeted at the "education" market. You can bet it will be heavily discounted there, or at least that all options will be thrown in for free. The idea will be to fill up the educational institutes with "Keysight" logos.

(In fact that might be the raison d'etre of this model, they might not care about hobbyists)

There's only one company who really does the same thing for hobbyists but people get angry if I mention them. Is it a coincidence that only the bottom-end model is hackable, that all the 'MSO' and 'S' versions aren't? Nope.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: rf-loop on February 02, 2017, 10:08:49 am
Amazing what they did with a Motorola 68000 processor. My Tektronix TDS784A only has a 68020 running at 16MHz but could capture over 350,000 waveforms per second !!

It wouldn't be the 68020 doing that waveform update rate.

It is not 68020 what can do it. But TDS784A can -  regardless of the fact that there is also 68020.

There is DPX waveform imaging processor ("Digital Phosphor" engine) just after ADC.
And IT can do it.

Bit more explanation how it works.
http://www.mksa.dii.univpm.it/biblioteca/sala_tecnica/scaffale_strumenti/Oscilloscopi/ApplNote/DPO.pdf (http://www.mksa.dii.univpm.it/biblioteca/sala_tecnica/scaffale_strumenti/Oscilloscopi/ApplNote/DPO.pdf)

In page 2 there is explanation. Useful reading for understanding fundamentals how things work.

"The heart of the DPO is the DPX™ waveform imaging processor; a proprietary ASIC that rasterizes the digitized.....  " 

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 02, 2017, 11:38:52 am
You're happy to trade off realtime performance for increased memory depth, and there are products which allow you to do this. Its not a major failing of the Keysight products products that don't offer this control as it brings other benefits to trade off against which will be valued differently by different customers.
That is a misconception. Keysight scopes always use the maximum memory available so their method actually offers slower realtime performance (update rate) compared to other scopes which allow to use shorter memory lengths. Remember that the waveform update rate is a function of the memory length and samplerate.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: snoopy on February 02, 2017, 12:02:10 pm
Amazing what they did with a Motorola 68000 processor. My Tektronix TDS784A only has a 68020 running at 16MHz but could capture over 350,000 waveforms per second !!

It wouldn't be the 68020 doing that waveform update rate.

Yes it would only be responsible for updating the display and other slower processes. There is also a DSP in it probably doing all of the maths and FFT etc but the main acquisition would be done by ASICs. This is a scope worthy of a tear down if you can get your hands on one. Since this scope came out around 1996 I think Tek were doing ultra fast waveform update rates way before anyone else. With some of their newer scopes they kind of went backwards in terms of performance.

cheers
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: snoopy on February 02, 2017, 12:11:01 pm
Amazing what they did with a Motorola 68000 processor. My Tektronix TDS784A only has a 68020 running at 16MHz but could capture over 350,000 waveforms per second !!

It wouldn't be the 68020 doing that waveform update rate.

It is not 68020 what can do it. But TDS784A can -  regardless of the fact that there is also 68020.

There is DPX waveform imaging processor ("Digital Phosphor" engine) just after ADC.
And IT can do it.

Bit more explanation how it works.
http://www.mksa.dii.univpm.it/biblioteca/sala_tecnica/scaffale_strumenti/Oscilloscopi/ApplNote/DPO.pdf (http://www.mksa.dii.univpm.it/biblioteca/sala_tecnica/scaffale_strumenti/Oscilloscopi/ApplNote/DPO.pdf)

In page 2 there is explanation. Useful reading for understanding fundamentals how things work.

"The heart of the DPO is the DPX™ waveform imaging processor; a proprietary ASIC that rasterizes the digitized.....  "

The DPO feature came out in the D versions of the scopes. I have the A version which has InstaVu and still has the fast update rates. There is also a C version which had a 68040 running at 25MHz but I don't think it had DPO yet.

cheers

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: saturation on February 02, 2017, 04:13:46 pm
Fungus has repeated what is in the data sheet, missing capabilities in the low end present in the high end.  There is no competition within their DSO model lines, but there is cross over of some features in low end to high end, say for example bandwidth, basic math, FFT or even the AWG option.  So one has an option to say, get a option laden low end model, versus a stripped high end model, as your needs dictate just like many other T&M manufacturers offer in their products too.

But, what Keysight can do to shake up the industry, and what Dave hints may likely be the case, is redefine the importance of the bottom end by provide a high quality entry level scope, thus "blessing" the bottom as something not to be ignored.   

-or-

That is all part of a marketing spiel, gamble or a bit of everything.

The existing entry level DSO in the catalog as of now, the 1000, is still a rebadged Rigol 1000 series built during the Agilent cooperation days.  They could simply be replacing it and moving design in house [ no more OEM rebadge and no more IP theft ]  so it needs a total redesign, and a Keysight imprimatur, ergo, the 1000x series.  The data sheet shows the 1000x is more like an updated Rigol 1052e with some added features, than a Rigol 1054z.  But they can't just make a 1052e clone because then why would you get one, if Rigol is cheaper and about the same, so build it around what is proprietary Keysight, the Keysight "MegaZoom IV custom ASIC".  In addition, play Rigol at its own game, and undercut Rigol's prices so far down, using newer technology to reduce costs [ like Zynq was to Instek] over the 10 yr old 1052e design.

The March introduction is interesting, the school year will be ending April 2017, just in time for the summer break, and new purchase cycles, and about now the original aging 1000 Agilents in labs are due for replacement and enough time for faculty to go through new offerings.  Good timing?

Its all speculation but in the end, but Keysight does not have to justify pricing or product strategy to anyone.  Its up to you the buyer, to decide how to react to their offerings.



... So given these clues it looks like Keysight could easily target $300 for the base model but it would be truly industry changing if in the $200, because then it would be position to take on the entire hobby market DSO as well, as far down as the likes of DSO nanos.
Come on. How would they explain that pricing to their customers buying the high-end scopes?! They need to keep some consistency in their overall pricing structure, and I don't see them re-positioning Keysight as the cheapjack of oscilloscopes.

Yep.

This is the real problem, they have to keep an eye on their expensive gear so the cheap stuff has to be crippled in some way.

It makes sense that this is targeted at the "education" market. You can bet it will be heavily discounted there, or at least that all options will be thrown in for free. The idea will be to fill up the educational institutes with "Keysight" logos.

(In fact that might be the raison d'etre of this model, they might not care about hobbyists)

There's only one company who really does the same thing for hobbyists but people get angry if I mention them. Is it a coincidence that only the bottom-end model is hackable, that all the 'MSO' and 'S' versions aren't? Nope.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on February 02, 2017, 05:36:25 pm
But, what Keysight can do to shake up the industry, and what Dave hints may likely be the case, is redefine the importance of the bottom end by provide a high quality entry level scope, thus "blessing" the bottom as something not to be ignored.   

Let's see if that happens.

A few months ago people said exactly the same things about the new low-end Tek 'educational' oscilloscope. That Tek was a serious brand. The new 'scope would be rock solid, professional, bug free, etc. Everything those pesky Rigols aren't.

Then it was launched, and... the rest is comedy gold.

Edit: The thread is here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-tektronix-tbs2000-oscilloscopes/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-tektronix-tbs2000-oscilloscopes/)

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on February 02, 2017, 05:45:58 pm
Its all speculation but in the end, but Keysight does not have to justify pricing or product strategy to anyone.  Its up to you the buyer, to decide how to react to their offerings.

My point was: If Keysight offers this scope at a bargain price, they will make their high-end customers very aware of the low material cost of Keysight DSOs, and what pricing is possible if you accept lower margins. They will create a perception that they are fleecing the high-end customers with inflated prices, relative to what they offer in the low end. I don't expect them to do that, but rather to keep a "healthy" ratio of high-end vs. low-end prices, in proportion with the perceived cost and value differences of the various scope families.

I still expect the price for a Keysight DSOX scope, 70 MHz with generator, to be closer to $1000 than to $200. I'm offering a bet: I will buy a new DSOX from you for $447 (which is the geometric median between the two) once it is out. If your low price estimate is right, you make a good deal; otherwise I will.  ;)

But I do agree with you that this is all speculation at this point...  ;)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on February 02, 2017, 05:47:39 pm
comedy gold it was... but after all, did we really expect something different from tek?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on February 02, 2017, 06:51:42 pm
This thread is the classic candidate to be included in another recent one:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/scope-wait-for-new-models/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/scope-wait-for-new-models/)

And there will be other models of interest this year............can't wait, Dave might be busy this year doing teardowns and first impressions.
It will be good to see how this one measures up alongside the new KS:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/scope-wait-for-new-models/msg1090385/#msg1090385 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/scope-wait-for-new-models/msg1090385/#msg1090385)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on February 02, 2017, 07:01:36 pm
this topic has the premises to become a 100+ pages like the rigol one
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on February 02, 2017, 07:03:41 pm
this topic has the premises to become a 100+ pages like the rigol one

No, I think this one will peter out soon once the scope is released.  :P
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on February 02, 2017, 07:25:49 pm
this topic has the premises to become a 100+ pages like the rigol one

No, I think this one will peter out soon once the scope is released.  :P
Exactly.
Any of the other manufacturers could pour cold water on the new KS with a better specc'ed/priced model.
We're only 1 month into 2017 and who know what's just around the corner of new goodies for this year.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on February 02, 2017, 07:30:17 pm
Any of the other manufacturers could pour cold water on the new KS with a better specc'ed/priced model.
We're only 1 month into 2017 and who know what's just around the corner of new goodies for this year.

... and I can't figure out what manufacturer you might be thinking of...  ::)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on February 02, 2017, 07:35:18 pm
Any of the other manufacturers could pour cold water on the new KS with a better specc'ed/priced model.
We're only 1 month into 2017 and who know what's just around the corner of new goodies for this year.

... and I can't figure out what manufacturer you might be thinking of...  ::)
:)
Sure, but Siglent won't be the only one, they're all fighting for the EDU and hobbyist market.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on February 02, 2017, 07:37:11 pm
 :box:
let's see if it will be as good as
(and if this one keysight will be as good as it promises to be)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 02, 2017, 09:36:48 pm
Its all speculation but in the end, but Keysight does not have to justify pricing or product strategy to anyone.  Its up to you the buyer, to decide how to react to their offerings.
My point was: If Keysight offers this scope at a bargain price, they will make their high-end customers very aware of the low material cost of Keysight DSOs, and what pricing is possible if you accept lower margins. They will create a perception that they are fleecing the high-end customers with inflated prices, relative to what they offer in the low end. I don't expect them to do that, but rather to keep a "healthy" ratio of high-end vs. low-end prices, in proportion with the perceived cost and value differences of the various scope families.
In an ideal world without competition that would be true but just look at the sheer amount of gear from GW Instek and Rigol coming from the ITT Tech Colleges auctions in the US. The competition for the educational market is obviously strong and Asian brands are clearly not off the table.

I was kinda hoping Keysight would introduce something radically new but instead they seem to follow Tektronix onto 'Rehash the old technology' street (which has a dead end).
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 02, 2017, 10:40:51 pm
Well, I just got the final datasheet with US pricing and I must say  :(
When I originally heard about this (and they asked for feedback on it) the base level price they were targeting was very competitive in the low end scope world.
And it still is, a bit more than I originally heard, but still a good base price. The problem is the feature set for the price.

This is clearly targeted at the educational market, more so than I thought, and a clear response to Tek's TBS1000 in many ways. Although Tek's courseware integration looks pretty impressive, I'm not sure what Agilent are offering there.
It will kick Tek's TBS1000 butt in almost every way, but I don't think the pricing and option structure will win out the budget market and that's a shame. Unless of course someone hacks the base model, then it will likely sell like wild fire if you want a 2CH budget scope.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 02, 2017, 11:02:21 pm
I was kinda hoping Keysight would introduce something radically new but instead they seem to follow Tektronix onto 'Rehash the old technology' street (which has a dead end).

There is nothing wrong with that, because the Megazoom 4 ASIC and ADC front end has more than enough grunt to make a kick arse leading budget scope no one else can touch at present.
Just look what capabilities are in that MZ4 chipset:
4-5GS/s
4M point memory (just enough)
1M waveforms/sec updating
20MHz ARB Wavegen
Hardware real time serial decoding and triggering
Hardware real time FFT (64k)
16CH MSO input

It's all just sitting there in this new base model unit, for want of activation and having chosen the right physical form (e.g. no MSO input)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 02, 2017, 11:46:11 pm
Well that is one way of giving a positive spin to using a chip which is sitting on a shelve otherwise  :box: For 100MHz you don't need a multi GHz samplerate (that just adds noise) and 1Mwaveforms/s is just a marketing gimmic. If you dig deeper you will find many things which are lesser in the Keysight oscilloscope range right up to the DSOX6000 series compared to other oscilloscope brands which use newer technology. The problem with creating highly integrated custom ASICs is that you need to sell a lot of them for a long time to make your money back. Meanwhile all real product innovation is on hold.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: AR on February 03, 2017, 01:49:57 am
Dave,

I think whats being said here is that there is a hole in the market for a good scope that has more grunt and memory than the MZ4 chipset can deliver, I think that with today's  technology this benchmark is achievable. as has been demonstrated by some B brand scopes that are out there. The custom MZ4 ASIC that Keysight use I know offers a complete solution, but I suspect this price / performance metric is fast approaching  the end of its life considering how old the chip is  (10 years).

Regards
Arthur   
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 03, 2017, 03:14:08 am
I think whats being said here is that there is a hole in the market for a good scope that has more grunt and memory than the MZ4 chipset can deliver, I think that with today's  technology this benchmark is achievable. as has been demonstrated by some B brand scopes that are out there. The custom MZ4 ASIC that Keysight use I know offers a complete solution, but I suspect this price / performance metric is fast approaching  the end of its life considering how old the chip is  (10 years).

Yeah, I don't disagree.
I think the MZ4 is now about 6 years old?
I think I did some math in another thread and found they released a new Megazoom every 7 years on average?
I think the MZ4 can last them a few more years, especially in a low end market, it's just a matter of bang per buck.
I mean just image if they released this at the Rigol price point of $399 and it had the function gen and all options including memory and sample rate and update rate and decodes etc (which ultimately do not cost them anything in terms of build cost). It would take some serious beating by anyone.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Someone on February 03, 2017, 04:24:31 am
You're happy to trade off realtime performance for increased memory depth, and there are products which allow you to do this. Its not a major failing of the Keysight products products that don't offer this control as it brings other benefits to trade off against which will be valued differently by different customers.
That is a misconception. Keysight scopes always use the maximum memory available so their method actually offers slower realtime performance (update rate) compared to other scopes which allow to use shorter memory lengths. Remember that the waveform update rate is a function of the memory length and samplerate.
Baloney, please point to some measurements of blind time to show where other scopes are offering more throughput. I've plotted the available information from the forum to help people visualise it:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/?action=dlattach;attach=236795;image)
Looks like a tiny portion where a rigol DS2000 could outperform a 3000X because its running with shorter memory (and showing less information in the process).

:box: For 100MHz you don't need a multi GHz samplerate (that just adds noise) and 1Mwaveforms/s is just a marketing gimmic.
Back on that old chestnut? Sampling much higher than required allows you to filter the noise in the front end, running the same ADC at a lower rate would result in a higher noise in the result. The interleaved ADCs are already sampling much faster than GS/s and then distributing that down to a manageable rate for the rest of the system, Lecroy use the ability to reconfigure the same ADC and oversample with it to increase the ENOB and reduce noise:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-scope-lecroy-hdo9000/msg1032610/#msg1032610 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-scope-lecroy-hdo9000/msg1032610/#msg1032610)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: memset on February 03, 2017, 07:59:36 am
I think the MZ4 is now about 6 years old?
I think I did some math in another thread and found they released a new Megazoom every 7 years on average?
I'm not sure why anyone would need the new megazoom ASIC for Infiniivision-class devices with today's reasonably priced SoC + FPGA chips like Zync. Maybe if you're going to use 20GSa ADC in 3000X replacement...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 03, 2017, 08:12:54 am
I think the MZ4 is now about 6 years old?
I think I did some math in another thread and found they released a new Megazoom every 7 years on average?
I'm not sure why anyone would need the new megazoom ASIC for Infiniivision-class devices with today's reasonably priced SoC + FPGA chips like Zync. Maybe if you're going to use 20GSa ADC in 3000X replacement...
FPGAs get very expensive pretty quickly. They generally do not use silicon area very efficiently - their main selling point is flexibility and low tooling cost. For a product that's going to be built in sufficient volumes with a well-defined functionality that's unlikely to need changing, an ASIC is going to be more silicon- and power- effificient.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on February 03, 2017, 08:13:03 am
Well, I just got the final datasheet with US pricing and I must say  :(
When I originally heard about this (and they asked for feedback on it) the base level price they were targeting was very competitive in the low end scope world.
And it still is, a bit more than I originally heard, but still a good base price. The problem is the feature set for the price.

This is clearly targeted at the educational market, more so than I thought, [...]

So, are we back to the original assumption of $650 for the EDUX model with signal generator (and its 50 MHz bandwidth, 100 kSample memory limitation)?

Which would probably translate to $450 or so for the bare-bones EDUX model, and approaching $1000 for the DSOX (70 MHz incl. signal generator) for the general market?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on February 03, 2017, 08:30:53 am
Unless of course someone hacks the base model, then it will likely sell like wild fire if you want a 2CH budget scope.

If they make it $650 and hackable for everything except CAN/LIN* decoders then they might have something.

(I really don't expect them to let people hack those two buses for free...)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 03, 2017, 08:40:46 am
I think the MZ4 is now about 6 years old?
I think I did some math in another thread and found they released a new Megazoom every 7 years on average?
I'm not sure why anyone would need the new megazoom ASIC for Infiniivision-class devices with today's reasonably priced SoC + FPGA chips like Zync. Maybe if you're going to use 20GSa ADC in 3000X replacement...

A decent Zynq is like $50 in qty.
An amortised ASIC will be much cheaper.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 03, 2017, 08:42:55 am
Unless of course someone hacks the base model, then it will likely sell like wild fire if you want a 2CH budget scope.
If they make it $650 and hackable for everything except CAN/LIN* decoders then they might have something.
(I really don't expect them to let people hack those two buses for free...)

What would be special about those?
If you hack the scope license system then you'll almost certainly get everything.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on February 03, 2017, 08:56:54 am
Quote
If they make it $650 and hackable for everything except CAN/LIN* decoders then they might have something.
(I really don't expect them to let people hack those two buses for free...)
What would be special about those?

Beats me... :-//  ...but every 'scope manufacturer seems to charge a fortune for them.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on February 03, 2017, 09:57:24 am
If they make it $650 and hackable for everything except CAN/LIN* decoders then they might have something.
(I really don't expect them to let people hack those two buses for free...)

What would be special about those?
If you hack the scope license system then you'll almost certainly get everything.

Nothing special from a technical perspective, of course. But scope manufacturers seem to position these as firmly "professional" protocols -- offering decoders as a separate upgrade package (like Keysight for the DSOX), or not offering them at all for the entry-level models (Rigol for the DS1000Z series, and again Keysight for the EDUX).

There might also be a license fee for using the CAN protocol? That would explain why scope manufacturers don't include it in the basic package, to avoid burdening it with that extra cost.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Boson on February 03, 2017, 10:10:04 am
But scope manufacturers seem to position these as firmly "professional" protocols

You offend my little puppy :( Is it not a scope or not from manufacturer? Analog Discovery 2 has CAN protocol out of the box. Looking bying Pico and it has CAN, LIN out of the box. Maybe these only for professional then and other scope for entertainment unless pay extra?  :-//

+find 1 more - CAN, LIN: GDS-2000E  :-+
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on February 03, 2017, 10:55:56 am
If they make it $650 and hackable for everything except CAN/LIN* decoders then they might have something.
(I really don't expect them to let people hack those two buses for free...)

What would be special about those?
If you hack the scope license system then you'll almost certainly get everything.

Nothing special from a technical perspective, of course. But scope manufacturers seem to position these as firmly "professional" protocols -- offering decoders as a separate upgrade package (like Keysight for the DSOX), or not offering them at all for the entry-level models (Rigol for the DS1000Z series, and again Keysight for the EDUX).

There might also be a license fee for using the CAN protocol? That would explain why scope manufacturers don't include it in the basic package, to avoid burdening it with that extra cost.
fee for using can? not that i know of. decoding raw can data (even by hand) is rather trivial once you have read the specification, which will always be available for free from the bosch website. Sure, more difficult than the more common spi/i2c, but the real problem with CAN is decoding what's happening at the higher levels and that's why you pay some money for a canbus analyzer (not talking about the elm327 and the like) and, if necesary, for the very expensive software.

i'm sure that the lack of entry level scopes with CAN is because it's targeted for different customer bases, the average hobbyist still won't care about setting up a canbus interface in a project and a business will have deeper pockets

(though siglent is actually offering can decoding with the sds1000x, and that's the price range i would expect the new keysight to fall into)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on February 03, 2017, 11:36:04 am
fee for using can? not that i know of.

http://www.bosch-semiconductors.de/media/automotive_electronics/pdf_2/ipmodules_3/can_protocol_license_1/Bosch_CAN_Protocol_License_Conditions.pdf (http://www.bosch-semiconductors.de/media/automotive_electronics/pdf_2/ipmodules_3/can_protocol_license_1/Bosch_CAN_Protocol_License_Conditions.pdf)

No idea whether this (or similar license terms) applies to protocol analyzers, scopes etc.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on February 03, 2017, 12:01:11 pm
If they make it $650 and hackable for everything except CAN/LIN* decoders then they might have something.
(I really don't expect them to let people hack those two buses for free...)

What would be special about those?
If you hack the scope license system then you'll almost certainly get everything.

Nothing special from a technical perspective, of course. But scope manufacturers seem to position these as firmly "professional" protocols -- offering decoders as a separate upgrade package (like Keysight for the DSOX), or not offering them at all for the entry-level models (Rigol for the DS1000Z series, and again Keysight for the EDUX).

There might also be a license fee for using the CAN protocol? That would explain why scope manufacturers don't include it in the basic package, to avoid burdening it with that extra cost.
fee for using can? not that i know of. decoding raw can data (even by hand) is rather trivial once you have read the specification, which will always be available for free from the bosch website. Sure, more difficult than the more common spi/i2c, but the real problem with CAN is decoding what's happening at the higher levels and that's why you pay some money for a canbus analyzer (not talking about the elm327 and the like) and, if necesary, for the very expensive software.

i'm sure that the lack of entry level scopes with CAN is because it's targeted for different customer bases, the average hobbyist still won't care about setting up a canbus interface in a project and a business will have deeper pockets

(though siglent is actually offering can decoding with the sds1000x, and that's the price range i would expect the new keysight to fall into)
In fact the whole Decoding suite of I2C,SPI,UART/RS232,CAN and LIN all come free ATM and have been for months.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on February 03, 2017, 12:04:04 pm
fee for using can? not that i know of.

http://www.bosch-semiconductors.de/media/automotive_electronics/pdf_2/ipmodules_3/can_protocol_license_1/Bosch_CAN_Protocol_License_Conditions.pdf (http://www.bosch-semiconductors.de/media/automotive_electronics/pdf_2/ipmodules_3/can_protocol_license_1/Bosch_CAN_Protocol_License_Conditions.pdf)

No idea whether this (or similar license terms) applies to protocol analyzers, scopes etc.
i thought that it applied to silicon?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on February 03, 2017, 12:20:06 pm
http://www.bosch-semiconductors.de/media/automotive_electronics/pdf_2/ipmodules_3/can_protocol_license_1/Bosch_CAN_Protocol_License_Conditions.pdf (http://www.bosch-semiconductors.de/media/automotive_electronics/pdf_2/ipmodules_3/can_protocol_license_1/Bosch_CAN_Protocol_License_Conditions.pdf)

No idea whether this (or similar license terms) applies to protocol analyzers, scopes etc.
i thought that it applied to silicon?

You may very well be right; as mentioned, I don't claim to know the field. But Bosch does hold patents on the protocol itself, in addition to specific VHDL modules which they offer for license. The wording does not seem to exclude software-only implementations:

Quote
The CAN Protocol and CAN FD Protocol License is required for any implementation of the CAN Protocol and CAN FD Protocol, i.e. self-developed CAN IP modules, CAN IP modules purchased from Bosch or another vendor.

But CAN in software may well be license-free, which would make the separate offering of CAN decoders purely an attempt to retain some market segmentation. Given enough competitive pressure, that segmentation should go away eventually, and CAN will be included as a standard. As others have mentioned here, some manufacturers have already taken that step, so the others will have to follow eventually.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nfmax on February 03, 2017, 12:50:27 pm
fee for using can? not that i know of.

http://www.bosch-semiconductors.de/media/automotive_electronics/pdf_2/ipmodules_3/can_protocol_license_1/Bosch_CAN_Protocol_License_Conditions.pdf (http://www.bosch-semiconductors.de/media/automotive_electronics/pdf_2/ipmodules_3/can_protocol_license_1/Bosch_CAN_Protocol_License_Conditions.pdf)

No idea whether this (or similar license terms) applies to protocol analyzers, scopes etc.
i thought that it applied to silicon?
The Agilent/Keysight decoders are in silicon, imlemented in the MZ4 ASIC
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 03, 2017, 01:11:54 pm
I think the MZ4 is now about 6 years old?
I think I did some math in another thread and found they released a new Megazoom every 7 years on average?
I'm not sure why anyone would need the new megazoom ASIC for Infiniivision-class devices with today's reasonably priced SoC + FPGA chips like Zync. Maybe if you're going to use 20GSa ADC in 3000X replacement...
A decent Zynq is like $50 in qty.
An amortised ASIC will be much cheaper.
That comparison is only fair if the ASIC offers the same performance (*) and functions as the Zynq (you have add the price of an external processor to the cost of the ASIC). ASICs may be cheap in large quantities but the lifecycle of test equipment is extremely short due to technology advancing so fast. So for a test equipment specific ASIC to pay for itself you really need to sell a lot of equipment or otherwise you'd have to milk it.

(*) I just looked at your FFT comparison video again and the 64kpts FFT on the MSO X3045T you show in there is painfully slow compared to what the Zynq can do.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 03, 2017, 01:36:12 pm
but the lifecycle of test equipment is extremely short due to technology advancing so fast.
Seriously ? 
Compared to most other fields in electronics, testgear has an extermely long lifetime. When did Agilent last release a low- end scope ? well over 5 years.


Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on February 03, 2017, 01:42:26 pm
fee for using can? not that i know of.

http://www.bosch-semiconductors.de/media/automotive_electronics/pdf_2/ipmodules_3/can_protocol_license_1/Bosch_CAN_Protocol_License_Conditions.pdf (http://www.bosch-semiconductors.de/media/automotive_electronics/pdf_2/ipmodules_3/can_protocol_license_1/Bosch_CAN_Protocol_License_Conditions.pdf)

No idea whether this (or similar license terms) applies to protocol analyzers, scopes etc.
i thought that it applied to silicon?
The Agilent/Keysight decoders are in silicon, imlemented in the MZ4 ASIC
yes but we were arguing wether the licensce applied to software and hardware too, besides silicon
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 03, 2017, 02:02:33 pm
but the lifecycle of test equipment is extremely short due to technology advancing so fast.
Seriously ? 
Compared to most other fields in electronics, testgear has an extermely long lifetime. When did Agilent last release a low- end scope ? well over 5 years.

It'll be pretty close to 6 years to the day between the original X-series and MZ4 announcement and the release of the 1000 X-series.
The 1000X series will have a pretty long life span that will likely push that platform to 10 years.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 03, 2017, 02:10:30 pm
A decent Zynq is like $50 in qty.
An amortised ASIC will be much cheaper.
That comparison is only fair if the ASIC offers the same performance (*) and functions as the Zynq (you have add the price of an external processor to the cost of the ASIC).

The Spear 600-2 in the Keysight is $10 or less in volume.

Quote
(*) I just looked at your FFT comparison video again and the 64kpts FFT on the MSO X3045T you show in there is painfully slow compared to what the Zynq can do.

Sure, but that's the only thing it's good at. The Keysight platform is vastly superior in everything else, the general scope responsiveness stuff that you use every day, and it's a 6+ year old design.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 03, 2017, 02:14:49 pm
I beg to differ. My Agilent DSO7104A spends most of the time on the shelve because the Zync based one is easier to use and has several handy features the DSO7104A doesn't have. Lack of responsiveness is unknown to me.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 03, 2017, 02:21:42 pm
I beg to differ. My Agilent DSO7104A spends most of the time on the shelve because the Zync based one is easier to use and has several handy features the DSO7104A doesn't have. Lack of responsiveness is unknown to me.

A) The DSO7104A is not an X-series platform
B) The DSO7104A uses the Megazoom III that is 10+ years old, not the Megazoom IV
C) I'm not talking about ease of use or features, I'm talking about scope responsiveness. You can turn on everything on the X-Series at once (serial decode, FFT, masking etc) and it doesn't slow down.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 03, 2017, 02:34:08 pm
I beg to differ. My Agilent DSO7104A spends most of the time on the shelve because the Zync based one is easier to use and has several handy features the DSO7104A doesn't have. Lack of responsiveness is unknown to me.

A) The DSO7104A is not an X-series platform
B) The DSO7104A uses the Megazoom III that is 10+ years old, not the Megazoom IV
C) I'm not talking about ease of use or features, I'm talking about scope responsiveness. You can turn on everything on the X-Series at once (serial decode, FFT, masking etc) and it doesn't slow down.
I rather have a feature which is slow than a missing feature. If you need to move a lot of stuff then a Ferrari is the wrong vehicle to use. Then again the Zync ain't no slouch.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nfmax on February 03, 2017, 02:40:24 pm
The 1000X series seems to be a case of moving relatively mature technology down toward the lower end of the market, now the ASIC development costs have been recovered, where it can be used to up the ante significantly. Presumably, any new Megazoom 5 chip would initially enter at a higher price point. Any competitor coming in against KS entry-level instruments must realise that there is a whole bunch of extra functionality in the MZ4 chip that could, in principle, be turned on at the flip of a firmware upgrade. For example, full ARB generation, extra protocol decodes, extra memory segments, and maybe even extra memory (though it's not clear if the 2nd MZ4 in the 3000+ series is required to enable the full 4Msamples).

There's clearly been some value engineering going on as well. The limited voltage range of the inputs may have allowed a relatively expensive relay to be omitted; the analogue bandwidth may genuinely not go above 100MHz; the expansion connector has been omitted; and a consumer-grade display seems to be used. The two channels only case design also probably helps reduce costs (even if only shipping costs).

Finally, by far the biggest development cost is in the software, and they appear to be re-using software from the 2000X and 3000X family, on an ARM processor (rather than the SHARC devices of the old Rigol-built 1000A/B series). To me it is very interesting that a couple of the higher end features of this software, like the bode plot and FFT phase, have been leapfrogged down to the 1000X. There is clearly more ammunition in the locker that could be brought out if necessary, to meet the competition. Just not huge amounts of acquisition memory.

It will be interesting to see what the educational resource package is like.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on February 03, 2017, 03:53:32 pm
To me it is very interesting that a couple of the higher end features of this software, like the bode plot and FFT phase, have been leapfrogged down to the 1000X. There is clearly more ammunition in the locker that could be brought out if necessary, to meet the competition. Just not huge amounts of acquisition memory.

It will be interesting to see what the educational resource package is like.

It's probably not a co-incidence that they selected FFT and Bode plots. Both modes are not used that often in professional use. (Although they do have significant value in those situations where they are needed; no need to convince me!) But Fourier transforms and Bode plots are staples of the signal processing curriculum in education, so having them in the scope enables practical exploration of the concepts taught in theory. So this confirms the assumed strong focus on the educational segment.

The feature selection also helps Keysight to keep the high-end scopes differentiated. While from a technical perspective they could certainly enable more features (which already exist in the software) to put pressure on the competition, they would create problems for themselves if the scope becomes too useful compared to the high-end models...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nfmax on February 03, 2017, 03:58:55 pm
The feature selection also helps Keysight to keep the high-end scopes differentiated. While from a technical perspective they could certainly enable more features (which already exist in the software) to put pressure on the competition, they would create problems for themselves if the scope becomes too useful compared to the high-end models...

too useful compared to the current high-end models...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 03, 2017, 04:26:19 pm
C) I'm not talking about ease of use or features, I'm talking about scope responsiveness. You can turn on everything on the X-Series at once (serial decode, FFT, masking etc) and it doesn't slow down.
That's not strictly true all the time, I've seen it get really sticky in a few slightly complicated circumstances but 95% of the time it's excellent
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: continuo on February 03, 2017, 04:48:58 pm
Dave, will there be a teardown vid on your channel?  :popcorn:
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: memset on February 03, 2017, 06:18:43 pm
A decent Zynq is like $50 in qty.
An amortised ASIC will be much cheaper.

I somewhat doubt that. FPGA's are not good for mass-market (except for time-to-market thing). But for the scopes? Scopes are not mobile phones and never sold in millions.
Even worse, 2000X and 3000X already use ADC + MZ ASIC + Spartan3 FPGA + SPEAR SoC. If I replace all that "MZ ASIC + Spartan3 FPGA + SPEAR SoC" with single Zync, wouldn't that be nice?
We need to take all MZ4 R&D + production costs to be divided by price-number of scopes sold to get ASIC price estimation.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nfmax on February 03, 2017, 06:49:34 pm
Low end scopes probably do sell in millions, over the life of the product range. And we are not comparing a from-scratch design with a new ASIC versus an FPGA: the ASIC already exists and its unit cost will be much less than an FPGA of equivalent functionality!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Someone on February 03, 2017, 09:01:09 pm
I think the MZ4 is now about 6 years old?
I think I did some math in another thread and found they released a new Megazoom every 7 years on average?
I'm not sure why anyone would need the new megazoom ASIC for Infiniivision-class devices with today's reasonably priced SoC + FPGA chips like Zync. Maybe if you're going to use 20GSa ADC in 3000X replacement...
There is a very large amount of memory on the megazoom ASIC to support the fast histograms (plotting) its extremely high bandwidth and low latency and probably larger in size than the 4Mpts of acquisition memory. There are large Xilinx SoC parts with these quantities of memory but they are extremely expensive, and not comparable to the entry level Zynq products. Look up something with 4Mpts x 2 channels x 8 bits = 64Mbits of ram resources.

A decent Zynq is like $50 in qty.
An amortised ASIC will be much cheaper.
I somewhat doubt that. FPGA's are not good for mass-market (except for time-to-market thing). But for the scopes? Scopes are not mobile phones and never sold in millions.
Even worse, 2000X and 3000X already use ADC + MZ ASIC + Spartan3 FPGA + SPEAR SoC. If I replace all that "MZ ASIC + Spartan3 FPGA + SPEAR SoC" with single Zync, wouldn't that be nice?
We need to take all MZ4 R&D + production costs to be divided by price-number of scopes sold to get ASIC price estimation.
There are many problems with this, the ADC is a separate ASIC, the SPEAR SoC already includes some programmable logic, and the Spartan3 is used for additional maths/measurements? But they're each very cheap and wouldnt benefit much from integration, possibly even suffer when you become IO constrained in a single package.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: memset on February 04, 2017, 05:18:18 pm
the ASIC already exists and its unit cost will be much less than an FPGA of equivalent functionality!
ASIC didn't came out from the thin air. I'm speaking about early stage of ASIC development planning. When you have to do a right decision whether to develop a new ASIC or call Xilinx to ask them for a quote of 1M Zync's.
ASIC still have two unbeatable advantages: highest performance and 100% copy protection. On the other side is extreme inflexibility.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on February 04, 2017, 06:18:44 pm
but here we are talking about using an asic that already exist and its developing cost was (probably) already absorbed so you are paying for the production only vs using a generic platform.

if however the decision was between developing a new asic or using a SoC FOR A ENTRY LEVEL MODEL...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: hans on February 04, 2017, 11:34:54 pm
I don't think Agilent would be making an ASIC for the 2000x/3000x series if it wouldn't have a reasonable ROI within that series. In the last 5 years, the market hasn't been turned upside down that severely and it looks like they can reuse it for the lower end model now. That means they can probably make these ASICs for rather low cost in the 1000 series scopes, and probably push the higher series forward in a few years time.

FPGA's and in particular the Zynq are not cheap ICs. The Zynq is a 28Nm chip, the MegaZoom IV is a 90Nm chip. But I bet the ASIC will be probably a smaller die, less of a power hog yet faster than a Zynq. I'm not even sure if you could fit that much functionality at that performance in a Zynq; 1M wfms per second with hardware decoding, segmented memory and all the other bells and whistles? It was published here (http://www.embedded.com/electronics-news/4213152/Agilent-uses-new-ASIC-in-MSO-market-attack) that the chip contains 6M gates. Now some of that could be the embedded memory, but I wouldn't be surprised if the actual logic makes up a couple of Million gates as well.

The Zynq is a nice chip, but the lower end chipsets only compare to like a mid range Cyclone II in terms of memory and logic resources. Don't forget that because FPGA's are re-programmable, they got a bucket load of gates and transistors to make any kind of usable logic. This costs area, thus money, reduces speed, draws power and overall makes FPGAs unattractive in mid to high volume products.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Someone on February 05, 2017, 12:09:20 am
It was published here (http://www.embedded.com/electronics-news/4213152/Agilent-uses-new-ASIC-in-MSO-market-attack) that the chip contains 6M gates. Now some of that could be the embedded memory, but I wouldn't be surprised if the actual logic makes up a couple of Million gates as well.
The quote is:
Quote
custom 90-nm CMOS ASIC with 6M gates and embedded memory
So the ?dram is likely in addition to the 6 million "gates".
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: kcbrown on February 05, 2017, 01:07:04 am
A question about setting up triggers ...

If you have an FPGA that is part of your triggering setup, and you want to change the triggering conditions, would you be able to reprogram the FPGA "on the fly" when you reconfigure the trigger?

Which is to say, rather than set up a configurable fabric for the purpose of implementing a programmable trigger, would it be possible to take advantage of the fact that the FPGA is already a configurable fabric?

I ask because I was under the impression that the binary formats and such used for FPGAs were kept rather close to the chest of the FPGA manufacturers (else I expect we'd have seen open source FPGA code generation programs by now), and if that's the case, I don't see how one could go about reprogramming the FPGA on the fly in that manner -- you'd have to have a pre-generated binary image ready to go for each possible trigger combination.

Anyway, if FPGAs can be reprogrammed on the fly in that manner, that would make the use of an FPGA a pretty massive advantage, would it not?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: artag on February 05, 2017, 01:17:36 am
Traditionally it hasn't been possible to change a few bits in an FPGA image to change something like triggering conditions. The nearest you could probably get is a selection of images for different tasks with some parameterisation to select options.

However, I'm hopeful that the opening up of the Lattice IceStorm will pave the way for more intelligent reconfiguration.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: kwass on February 05, 2017, 03:16:12 am
Its all speculation but in the end, but Keysight does not have to justify pricing or product strategy to anyone.  Its up to you the buyer, to decide how to react to their offerings.

My point was: If Keysight offers this scope at a bargain price, they will make their high-end customers very aware of the low material cost of Keysight DSOs, and what pricing is possible if you accept lower margins. They will create a perception that they are fleecing the high-end customers with inflated prices, relative to what they offer in the low end. I don't expect them to do that, but rather to keep a "healthy" ratio of high-end vs. low-end prices, in proportion with the perceived cost and value differences of the various scope families.

I still expect the price for a Keysight DSOX scope, 70 MHz with generator, to be closer to $1000 than to $200. I'm offering a bet: I will buy a new DSOX from you for $447 (which is the geometric median between the two) once it is out. If your low price estimate is right, you make a good deal; otherwise I will.  ;)

But I do agree with you that this is all speculation at this point...  ;)

There are prices on this Russian site:

 https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=https://dip8.ru/shop/izmerenija/izmeriteli_elektricheskih_velichin/ostsillografy/tsifrovye_ostsillografy/tsifrovye_ostsillografy_prochee/&prev=search

If correct, it works out to $2,148US for the DSOX1102G which seems impossibly high.  However is does list all the models which at least gives an idea of how they are priced relative to each other.  The DSOX1102A (no generator) works out to $1,647US -- which implies the generator is a 30% increase over the base model.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Someone on February 05, 2017, 07:41:02 am
If you have an FPGA that is part of your triggering setup, and you want to change the triggering conditions, would you be able to reprogram the FPGA "on the fly" when you reconfigure the trigger?

Which is to say, rather than set up a configurable fabric for the purpose of implementing a programmable trigger, would it be possible to take advantage of the fact that the FPGA is already a configurable fabric?

I ask because I was under the impression that the binary formats and such used for FPGAs were kept rather close to the chest of the FPGA manufacturers (else I expect we'd have seen open source FPGA code generation programs by now), and if that's the case, I don't see how one could go about reprogramming the FPGA on the fly in that manner -- you'd have to have a pre-generated binary image ready to go for each possible trigger combination.

Anyway, if FPGAs can be reprogrammed on the fly in that manner, that would make the use of an FPGA a pretty massive advantage, would it not?
I've no idea how much trigger logic (if any) is offloaded in this case, but if you had the full bandwidth data going to/through an FPGA it would open up very complex trigger possibilities. Xilinx did/do support partial reconfiguration:
https://www.xilinx.com/products/design-tools/vivado/implementation/partial-reconfiguration.html (https://www.xilinx.com/products/design-tools/vivado/implementation/partial-reconfiguration.html)
And while its complex to get working there can be excellent use cases like this. The formats of the binary (configuration) files are not complex at all and there are already tools for changing the ram contents in the files which could support most of the realtime configuration needs of scope triggers.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 05, 2017, 08:16:20 am
I somewhat doubt that. FPGA's are not good for mass-market (except for time-to-market thing). But for the scopes? Scopes are not mobile phones and never sold in millions.
Even worse, 2000X and 3000X already use ADC + MZ ASIC + Spartan3 FPGA + SPEAR SoC. If I replace all that "MZ ASIC + Spartan3 FPGA + SPEAR SoC" with single Zync, wouldn't that be nice?
We need to take all MZ4 R&D + production costs to be divided by price-number of scopes sold to get ASIC price estimation.

The MZ4 has the sample memory in it too.
And I'm doubting you can make a Zync based system as fast as the optimised MZ4 ASIC.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 05, 2017, 08:35:18 am
Traditionally it hasn't been possible to change a few bits in an FPGA image to change something like triggering conditions. The nearest you could probably get is a selection of images for different tasks with some parameterisation to select options.

However, I'm hopeful that the opening up of the Lattice IceStorm will pave the way for more intelligent reconfiguration.
FPGA vendors have been occasionally talking about partial reconfiguration for at least 20 years but AFAIK none have actually implemented it in any useful way.
Memory is cheap nowadays so multiple images for different decodes is a reasonable way to do it. You don't swap between decodes often enough that a second or two of reload time would be an issue.

 
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: AndyC_772 on February 05, 2017, 09:00:01 am
Traditionally it hasn't been possible to change a few bits in an FPGA image to change something like triggering conditions. The nearest you could probably get is a selection of images for different tasks with some parameterisation to select options.

It would be very unusual to change an FPGA image on-the-fly. Much more likely is that it would contain the logic for all the different possible trigger conditions, and a register interface that would allow the CPU to select between them.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 05, 2017, 01:09:23 pm
I somewhat doubt that. FPGA's are not good for mass-market (except for time-to-market thing). But for the scopes? Scopes are not mobile phones and never sold in millions.
Even worse, 2000X and 3000X already use ADC + MZ ASIC + Spartan3 FPGA + SPEAR SoC. If I replace all that "MZ ASIC + Spartan3 FPGA + SPEAR SoC" with single Zync, wouldn't that be nice?
We need to take all MZ4 R&D + production costs to be divided by price-number of scopes sold to get ASIC price estimation.

The MZ4 has the sample memory in it too.
And I'm doubting you can make a Zync based system as fast as the optimised MZ4 ASIC.
I'm very sure you can! There is absolutely nothing in the MZ4 ASIC you can't do with an FPGA. And having a direct path between the CPU and sampledata probably opens new possibilities due to the higher memory bandwidth.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 05, 2017, 01:13:16 pm
Traditionally it hasn't been possible to change a few bits in an FPGA image to change something like triggering conditions. The nearest you could probably get is a selection of images for different tasks with some parameterisation to select options.

However, I'm hopeful that the opening up of the Lattice IceStorm will pave the way for more intelligent reconfiguration.
FPGA vendors have been occasionally talking about partial reconfiguration for at least 20 years but AFAIK none have actually implemented it in any useful way.
Same here when it comes to Xilinx. It looks promising but once you delve deeper into what is needed then you'll quickly notice the tools aren't really suitable to do it and programming a Xilinx chip in circuit using JTAG from a microcontroller is a world of pain with a regular image.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: saturation on February 05, 2017, 04:04:34 pm
Thanks kwass.  Some products listed have been sold for some years now elsewhere [ older model Keysights, GWinsteks and Pico scopes], so we can get a ballpark figure for that vendors premium over MSRP price for a US buyer.  Sampling various products the premium is 2x to as high as 3.3x, mid point ~ 2.7x the MSRP.

So estimating, entry level EDUX1002A at 66,720 rubles ~ $1131 range from $343 - $566, midpoint $419




There are prices on this Russian site:

 https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=https://dip8.ru/shop/izmerenija/izmeriteli_elektricheskih_velichin/ostsillografy/tsifrovye_ostsillografy/tsifrovye_ostsillografy_prochee/&prev=search

If correct, it works out to $2,148US for the DSOX1102G which seems impossibly high.  However is does list all the models which at least gives an idea of how they are priced relative to each other.  The DSOX1102A (no generator) works out to $1,647US -- which implies the generator is a 30% increase over the base model.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 05, 2017, 08:04:13 pm
Traditionally it hasn't been possible to change a few bits in an FPGA image to change something like triggering conditions. The nearest you could probably get is a selection of images for different tasks with some parameterisation to select options.

It would be very unusual to change an FPGA image on-the-fly. Much more likely is that it would contain the logic for all the different possible trigger conditions, and a register interface that would allow the CPU to select between them.
Except that takes more FPGA resources, so you may need a larger part to accommodate all the functions, only a subset of which are needed at any time. The idea that you could partition an FPGA and swap multiple blocks in and out in the fly is very attractive if it can be made to work.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 05, 2017, 08:19:29 pm
At one of my previous employers we looked into partial configuration but in the end we went for loading the appropriate FPGA image for a specific function. This requires more flash memory to store the various but flash has been relatively cheap for a long time. AFAIK you have to stop the FPGA during a partial configuration cycle so loading an entire or partial image doesn't make much difference.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Someone on February 05, 2017, 09:26:46 pm
Traditionally it hasn't been possible to change a few bits in an FPGA image to change something like triggering conditions. The nearest you could probably get is a selection of images for different tasks with some parameterisation to select options.

However, I'm hopeful that the opening up of the Lattice IceStorm will pave the way for more intelligent reconfiguration.
FPGA vendors have been occasionally talking about partial reconfiguration for at least 20 years but AFAIK none have actually implemented it in any useful way.
Same here when it comes to Xilinx. It looks promising but once you delve deeper into what is needed then you'll quickly notice the tools aren't really suitable to do it and programming a Xilinx chip in circuit using JTAG from a microcontroller is a world of pain with a regular image.
Doesnt match my experience, both were easy to do and saved enough cost in the systems to make it worthwhile.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 06, 2017, 04:05:47 am
The MZ4 has the sample memory in it too.
And I'm doubting you can make a Zync based system as fast as the optimised MZ4 ASIC.
I'm very sure you can! There is absolutely nothing in the MZ4 ASIC you can't do with an FPGA. And having a direct path between the CPU and sampledata probably opens new possibilities due to the higher memory bandwidth.

You may be able to, but it's not just magic. FPGA's have fabric timing and routing overhead that ASIC's generally can optimise out with more consider layout.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 06, 2017, 10:56:07 am
The MZ4 has the sample memory in it too.
And I'm doubting you can make a Zync based system as fast as the optimised MZ4 ASIC.
I'm very sure you can! There is absolutely nothing in the MZ4 ASIC you can't do with an FPGA. And having a direct path between the CPU and sampledata probably opens new possibilities due to the higher memory bandwidth.
You may be able to, but it's not just magic. FPGA's have fabric timing and routing overhead that ASIC's generally can optimise out with more consider layout.
I never wrote an FPGA solution would be more power efficient. Then again it seems the MZ4 uses a 90nm process and the Zync seems to be on a 28nm process.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: memset on February 07, 2017, 06:57:08 pm
I'm very sure you can! There is absolutely nothing in the MZ4 ASIC you can't do with an FPGA. And having a direct path between the CPU and sampledata probably opens new possibilities due to the higher memory bandwidth.
Yep, but it was quite hard to achieve the same functionality back 7 years ago on a reasonably prices FPGA. For MZ5 you'll need to achieve something like 20-50GSa/s 10+ bit datapath to make it impossible to replace with FPGA. It wouldn't make any sense to develop a new ASIC without drastical improvement of parformance and functionality.
Personally I'd like for MZ5 to handle 20GSa/s, 5GHz+ BW with some 8b10b / 64b66b hardware serial decoders for next age midlevel scopes like future-DSOX3000.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Blue on February 16, 2017, 05:04:18 am
Looks like it is a very nice piece of equipment.
I would love to get one....
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: felixd on February 16, 2017, 05:24:19 am
Looks like it is a very nice piece of equipment.
I would love to get one....

Not only You :)  :-DD
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Muxr on February 16, 2017, 05:29:52 am
The MZ4 has the sample memory in it too.
And I'm doubting you can make a Zync based system as fast as the optimised MZ4 ASIC.
I'm very sure you can! There is absolutely nothing in the MZ4 ASIC you can't do with an FPGA. And having a direct path between the CPU and sampledata probably opens new possibilities due to the higher memory bandwidth.
You may be able to, but it's not just magic. FPGA's have fabric timing and routing overhead that ASIC's generally can optimise out with more consider layout.
I never wrote an FPGA solution would be more power efficient. Then again it seems the MZ4 uses a 90nm process and the Zync seems to be on a 28nm process.
Kind of off topic, but related to your comment.. some FPGAs can be quite efficient. Like the Lattice ice40 ultra series. I was kind of shocked to find out they are used in the iPhone 7. Although they are relatively small and more CPLDs than FPGAs.

Anyways, on topic: This looks like a nice little scope. Looks to be pretty responsive. Can't wait for a teardown!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: RissViss on February 16, 2017, 07:24:24 am
Looks like a nice scope.
Have a day
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: adcurtin on February 16, 2017, 07:30:13 am
is this the contest entry thread?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Hole on February 16, 2017, 08:24:25 am
Wait. They give them away for free?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: capt bullshot on February 16, 2017, 09:33:25 am
The FRA feature is the best feature I've ever seen on a oscilloscope. This feature alone would be worth buying one ... must persuade my boss the next new scope must be one of these ... (Usually new scopes here are ugly Yokogawa ones).
Would have been lucky if I had this thing some month ago, while checking the frequency response of a special purpose diff amp, Instead I had to do it manually and for some extent using a Red Pitaya. The "built-in" apps of the RP are a real PITA, the Keysight looks way much better.

Please ... I need one of these ...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on February 16, 2017, 09:42:25 am
was very disappointed by today's video.
(note: i have very high expectations for this scope.. and i'll get one from some of the countless german dudes who will win at the giveaway and resell it)

at first my heart skipped a couple of beats. i was thinking (oh crap another TBS-like disaster)  :-DD

then the style of the presentation was very disappointing compared to other of your "promotional" videos, from what i remember
not a review or a teardown, just advertising (also, the amount of replies by keysight in the video...).
Sure, a quick glance at all the functions but the tone..

also, not sure if stupid youtube but at some moments it felt like the playback was running at increased speed, like when dave was moving the vertical offset his movement was too "frenetic". not only there
probably stupid youtube.

When will there be the real review??
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: alin_im on February 16, 2017, 09:48:32 am
Dave, are you going to do a comparison between the new Keysight and Rigol 1000z series ?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 16, 2017, 10:40:06 am
was very disappointed by today's video.
then the style of the presentation was very disappointing compared to other of your "promotional" videos, from what i remember
not a review or a teardown, just advertising (also, the amount of replies by keysight in the video...).

The scope is not released yet. I was only allowed to show the bode plot function.

Quote
Sure, a quick glance at all the functions but the tone..

All the functions? I showed very little of the functionality, on purpose.

Quote
When will there be the real review??

When it's actually released.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 16, 2017, 10:41:41 am
Dave, are you going to do a comparison between the new Keysight and Rigol 1000z series ?

People probably expect that.
So eventually I guess.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on February 16, 2017, 11:00:51 am
was very disappointed by today's video.
then the style of the presentation was very disappointing compared to other of your "promotional" videos, from what i remember
not a review or a teardown, just advertising (also, the amount of replies by keysight in the video...).

The scope is not released yet. I was only allowed to show the bode plot function.


that's reasonable

Quote
on purpose.

of course, which is why i said "not a review or a teardown, just advertising"

Quote
Quote
When will there be the real review??

When it's actually released.

got it :-+
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: npelov on February 16, 2017, 11:50:28 am
I'll kill up to 10 people to get one :). And 3 of them can be a president of a country... That's excluding Bill Gates - he can be a free bonus.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: thy127 on February 16, 2017, 01:27:50 pm
Here's my current scope. I'm not sure but the Keysight one might be an improvement...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: cte7ds on February 16, 2017, 04:06:06 pm
Thanks to my EEVblog YouTube subscription, I'll once again have a small chance of winning a life changing piece of test-equipment! Totally worth it! :-+ :-+
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Orange on February 16, 2017, 04:12:48 pm
Have you also noticed the big amount of noise on the traces ?

Why is Keysight wasting so much screen for the menu on the right side ?

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: FrankD on February 16, 2017, 04:51:15 pm
It's tiny.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on February 16, 2017, 09:06:04 pm
Why is Keysight wasting so much screen for the menu on the right side ?

Like the other InfiniiVision scopes, the plotting is all done in the ASIC at a fixed aspect ratio. So, we didn't so much take away screen space as add in extra for menus (that won't cover your trace).
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Smokey on February 16, 2017, 09:23:06 pm
I hate Bode plotters that work with that stepped frequency method.  It not only takes forever to cover the frequency range, but by skipping between discreet frequency steps you can miss resonances/strange behaviors that might happen to be in between the steps.  Real continuous swept sine or full band "white noise" frequency response is sooooo much better and there is nothing keeping an instrument like this from doing either method.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: plexar on February 16, 2017, 10:22:57 pm
Looks like a great entry level scope.  Would love to enter to win one.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on February 16, 2017, 10:38:23 pm
(...)

Got an MSRP on this new scope? I'd be interested in buying it if I don't win one  :-+
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 16, 2017, 10:45:21 pm
I hate Bode plotters that work with that stepped frequency method.  It not only takes forever to cover the frequency range, but by skipping between discreet frequency steps you can miss resonances/strange behaviors that might happen to be in between the steps.  Real continuous swept sine or full band "white noise" frequency response is sooooo much better and there is nothing keeping an instrument like this from doing either method.
Somehow I doubt that. An oscillation needs time to build up so hitting it shortly with a too fast sweep or every now and then with noise seems just as prone to missing resonances to me as using discrete steps. Also you'll be looking at a resonator in a narrow frequency span anyway so you don't need many steps/slow sweeps.

Edit: some measurements really need time to get them right.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Zbig on February 16, 2017, 10:48:01 pm
I'll kill up to 10 people to get one :). And 3 of them can be a president of a country... That's excluding Bill Gates - he can be a free bonus.

 :wtf: Please, do everyone a favor and don't try to be funny anymore...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: beenosam on February 16, 2017, 11:32:14 pm
I wonder if they're gonna release a 4 channel model.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: elmohandis on February 16, 2017, 11:54:42 pm
in like flin!!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: bobaruni on February 17, 2017, 01:48:47 am
Can Aussies enter the keysight comp in post #1?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: snoopy on February 17, 2017, 04:07:12 am
Can Aussies enter the keysight comp in post #1?

Yes you can now enter your country even if it is not on the list ;)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: sibeen on February 17, 2017, 04:12:07 am
in like flin!!

To be grammatically correct it is actually:

"In like Flynn", a reference to the actor Errol Flynn who was known to like a bit.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: MrBungle on February 17, 2017, 04:44:21 am
Can Aussies enter the keysight comp in post #1?

Yes you can now enter your country even if it is not on the list ;)
Yes you can do that but it does not change the eligibility. If you have to enter your country in 'Other' then you are not eligible.
Eligible countries are listed in the T&C's.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: bobaruni on February 17, 2017, 05:19:08 am
Yes you can do that but it does not change the eligibility. If you have to enter your country in 'Other' then you are not eligible.
Eligible countries are listed in the T&C's.

Yep, tried to enter and selected "other" as country and error message came up about not being eligible....oh well.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: MrBungle on February 17, 2017, 05:26:36 am
Yep, tried to enter and selected "other" as country and error message came up about not being eligible....oh well.

Ah, someone has fixed it then.
I did the same yesterday (for kicks, I knew I wasn't eligible) but it went through no problems.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: WackyGerman on February 17, 2017, 10:44:28 am
:wtf: Is this the 1990's?

No, it's the 50's:

Maximum input voltage 150 Vrms, 200 Vpk

And it comes with switchable probes too.  :palm:
 :scared:


The same shit like the Rigol , Siglent and Rohde & Schwarz . 200 Vpk is the same like 400 Vpk to pk . Not better and not worse . But 400 V on the Siglent and Rigol sells better  :-DD
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Howardlong on February 17, 2017, 11:36:30 am
I hate Bode plotters that work with that stepped frequency method.  It not only takes forever to cover the frequency range, but by skipping between discreet frequency steps you can miss resonances/strange behaviors that might happen to be in between the steps.  Real continuous swept sine or full band "white noise" frequency response is sooooo much better and there is nothing keeping an instrument like this from doing either method.

Can you determine phase response from a white noise signal source?

Edit: figured it out... http://www.dr-jordan-design.de/Download/Examples_filter_butterworth.pdf (http://www.dr-jordan-design.de/Download/Examples_filter_butterworth.pdf)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: snoopy on February 17, 2017, 12:14:39 pm
Yep, tried to enter and selected "other" as country and error message came up about not being eligible....oh well.

Ah, someone has fixed it then.
I did the same yesterday (for kicks, I knew I wasn't eligible) but it went through no problems.

Mine went through as well !! Surely with a lot of Agilent representation in Australia and Dave in Sydney they weren't going to ignore us aussies !!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: BU508A on February 17, 2017, 12:57:05 pm
Dave, are you going to do a comparison between the new Keysight and Rigol 1000z series ?

People probably expect that.
So eventually I guess.

Isn't the Rohde & Schwarz HMO1232 not more in the same league for the X-1000 series than the Rigol 1000z?

Andreas
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on February 17, 2017, 12:58:39 pm
The question is, can we hack it?  :-/O

Also, no decoding options for the EDUX1002G? Why? That means no/less training signals? CAN? RS232? LIN?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: saturation on February 17, 2017, 01:30:43 pm
Thanks Dave for the video.  It looks well made and compared to the market, its really seems designed to replace the aging 1000, deal with the new 2011 RoHS directive older devices, such as the venerable 3458a, have problems with, and unify the UI of its DSO lineup.

If priced right, it could compete in the marker/hobby market.  But, even if priced >= 1054z, it's still cheaper than the 2000X series that advance labs choose over the 1000, save on the AWG and bench space.  Higher end colleges may be in cycle to replace aging labs relatively soon.

https://www.testequity.com/documents/pdf/Agilent_MLPS.pdf (https://www.testequity.com/documents/pdf/Agilent_MLPS.pdf)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tawpgk on February 17, 2017, 01:43:53 pm
Awesome! Can a long suffering Pisces win one in his birth month? Well maybe it will work...lol
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: rf-loop on February 17, 2017, 01:48:51 pm
:wtf: Is this the 1990's?

No, it's the 50's:

Maximum input voltage 150 Vrms, 200 Vpk

And it comes with switchable probes too.  :palm:
 :scared:


The same shit like the Rigol , Siglent and Rohde & Schwarz . 200 Vpk is the same like 400 Vpk to pk . Not better and not worse . But 400 V on the Siglent and Rigol sells better  :-DD

Siglent 400Vpk. Keyshit  is 200Vpk.

It is not same as 400Vpp (Vpk to pk)

(in spec sheet: 1 M? ?400 Vpk (DC + Peak AC <=10 kHz)

I have never tested so that I connect 230Vac directly to input.  It have "only" 325Vpk (if it is pure sine). And my scope calibrator (Tek CG5011) have only max 200Vpk @ 10kHz

  :-DD  or |O
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on February 17, 2017, 02:20:17 pm
Who really cares what the maximum input voltage on the scope is? You're going to use a 10X probe anyway, just get one which is higher rated.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on February 17, 2017, 02:40:53 pm
I hate Bode plotters that work with that stepped frequency method.  It not only takes forever to cover the frequency range, but by skipping between discreet frequency steps you can miss resonances/strange behaviors that might happen to be in between the steps.  Real continuous swept sine or full band "white noise" frequency response is sooooo much better and there is nothing keeping an instrument like this from doing either method.

Can you determine phase response from a white noise signal source?

Edit: figured it out... http://www.dr-jordan-design.de/Download/Examples_filter_butterworth.pdf (http://www.dr-jordan-design.de/Download/Examples_filter_butterworth.pdf)

The answer is yes. HP had at least a couple of instruments that could do this the HP3562A and the HP3563A. They are FFT based. I have the control loop of  a switching power supply using a noise source. I had to do this because the power supply could not run for a long enough time for swept or stepped frequency measurements.

With these instruments you can use averaging, so after each measurement you would get better and better results until the result stopped changing.

For a frequency response analyzer, FRA, to be useful for switching power supply measurements, it must reject all frequencies except the frequency being injected. The scope might use FFT to do this.

If Daniel is reading this, I am very disappointed that the FRA (Bode plots) is available for the DSOX3000 T but not the A series. The product is DSOX3PWR

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B


Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on February 17, 2017, 04:35:30 pm
If Daniel is reading this, I am very disappointed that the FRA (Bode plots) is available for the DSOX3000 T but not the A series. The product is DSOX3PWR

Noted
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: rf-loop on February 17, 2017, 05:03:00 pm
Who really cares what the maximum input voltage on the scope is? You're going to use a 10X probe anyway, just get one which is higher rated.

Of course this is partially true but also it is good to not share "alternative truth" so it was just for correct the false claim. Not for starting any kind debate about this. You do not care. I care, and I need care. Simple.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: vtp on February 17, 2017, 05:39:22 pm
For a frequency response analyzer, FRA, to be useful for switching power supply measurements, it must reject all frequencies except the frequency being injected. The scope might use FFT to do this.

KS 3000T does not seem to do so. It is not very useful in measuring stability of noisy power supplies as it is not a tuned receiver like a VNA - when the measured signals gets noisy the 3000T has massive problems in measuring amplitude and phase. We have also seen 3000T go totally nuts (as in having an EMC susceptibility problem which turns the instrument useless) in measuring a noisy power supply like an off-line flyback.

E5061B however makes a good job of stability measurements, with 3000T we could not complete those measurements at all.

If Daniel is reading this, I am very disappointed that the FRA (Bode plots) is available for the DSOX3000 T but not the A series. The product is DSOX3PWR

I would be a bit cautious about wanting that option for a 3000 series scope, it may have its uses but at least with us, not so much. YMMV.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: AndyC_772 on February 17, 2017, 06:18:17 pm
If Daniel is reading this, I am very disappointed that the FRA (Bode plots) is available for the DSOX3000 T but not the A series. The product is DSOX3PWR

Noted

I agree, this would be a really nice feature to see on the 3000A X-series. Is there any chance of the code being back ported into the 3000A firmware please Daniel?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: WackyGerman on February 17, 2017, 07:13:18 pm
:wtf: Is this the 1990's?

No, it's the 50's:

Maximum input voltage 150 Vrms, 200 Vpk

And it comes with switchable probes too.  :palm:
 :scared:


The same shit like the Rigol , Siglent and Rohde & Schwarz . 200 Vpk is the same like 400 Vpk to pk . Not better and not worse . But 400 V on the Siglent and Rigol sells better  :-DD

Siglent 400Vpk. Keyshit  is 200Vpk.

It is not same as 400Vpp (Vpk to pk)

(in spec sheet: 1 M? ?400 Vpk (DC + Peak AC <=10 kHz)

I have never tested so that I connect 230Vac directly to input.  It have "only" 325Vpk (if it is pure sine). And my scope calibrator (Tek CG5011) have only max 200Vpk @ 10kHz

  :-DD  or |O

Yes you re right . The 1000X Series has 400 Vp max input . But the older 1000 DL , CML etc. have 400 Vpp input . Sorry for the fault  :-[
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Monkeh on February 17, 2017, 07:20:26 pm
Siglent 400Vpk. Keyshit  is 200Vpk.

I'm sure this has been asked before, but I feel I have to ask it again.

Are you capable of making posts where you don't go around insulting products you don't sell?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: MrFox on February 17, 2017, 07:28:14 pm
:wtf: Is this the 1990's?

No, it's the 50's:

Maximum input voltage 150 Vrms, 200 Vpk

And it comes with switchable probes too.  :palm:
 :scared:

Sorry for the newbie question... I noticed professionals seem to universally hate switchable probes, but how else do you guys measure low level signals? Those of us buying this class of scope will probably not have the money for specialized probes. I mean depending if the specs are good at both settings, it's an attractive choice for budget conscious beginners. :-//
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on February 17, 2017, 07:45:12 pm
:wtf: Is this the 1990's?

No, it's the 50's:

Maximum input voltage 150 Vrms, 200 Vpk

And it comes with switchable probes too.  :palm:
 :scared:

Sorry for the newbie question... I noticed professionals seem to universally hate switchable probes, but how else do you guys measure low level signals? Those of us buying this class of scope will probably not have the money for specialized probes. I mean depending if the specs are good at both settings, it's an attractive choice for budget conscious beginners. :-//
For the aged, we did not have switchables, only fixed and you're quite correct switchables are very convenient BUT and big BUT one must be very careful in their use. In the case of this KS using 1:1 probes it could be easy to damage an input with too much voltage applied. US mains voltages are less challenging than most of the rest of the world.
Hence a preference for 400V input rated DSO's.  ;)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 17, 2017, 08:16:49 pm
US mains voltages are less challenging than most of the rest of the world. Hence a preference for 400V input rated DSO's.  ;)
IMHO you are making a way too big deal out of this. When measuring mains like voltages you won't be using a standard 1:1 / 1:10 probe but a differential probe (if you are sane).
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on February 17, 2017, 08:36:09 pm
US mains voltages are less challenging than most of the rest of the world. Hence a preference for 400V input rated DSO's.  ;)
IMHO you are making a way too big deal out of this. When measuring mains like voltages you won't be using a standard 1:1 / 1:10 probe but a differential probe (if you are sane).

Well you don't sell scopes and like any seller I have NO IDEA of the expertise of a buyer not to make a simple FUB economic repair mistake by using 1:1 probes on elevated voltages that might make any product look bad. The first criteria I had for selecting a brand to sell was 400V rated inputs.  :P
Result to date....no input damage of scopes I've sold.  :)
If selecting a scope for myself with the experience I've gained, this criteria would matter less.

Hunt though the forum for scope repairs with damaged inputs, there's been a good few over the years.  :scared:
How does this happen......elevated voltages.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 17, 2017, 09:38:28 pm
I'd take the opportunity to sell (safe) differential probes along with the oscilloscope! At least a differential probe won't cause damage with whatever input voltage including when the scope has the 50 Ohm inputs enabled.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 17, 2017, 10:37:32 pm
I always use a x100 probe for anything I wouldn't stick my finger on.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on February 17, 2017, 10:39:45 pm
I'd take the opportunity to sell (safe) differential probes along with the oscilloscope! At least a differential probe won't cause damage with whatever input voltage including when the scope has the 50 Ohm inputs enabled.
:)

And what would make you think I don't stock those too ?  :-//
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 17, 2017, 11:46:14 pm
I'll be selling a new model high voltage differential probe very soon. The new custom EEVblog front panel looks pretty slick  ;D
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: skylinrcr01 on February 18, 2017, 12:41:38 am
More and more universities in Europe are turning to Rigol gear for their labs.

The golden years where Tektronix used to have a monopoly position in academic latitudes are long gone.

And I am convinced that the TBS series with poor specs isn't going to change anything about that.

Rigol ended up getting my universities (cal state Long Beach) business. Can't beat them for the price. (before that they had ancient busted up Tek scopes)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: benst on February 18, 2017, 12:44:22 am
I'll be selling a new model high voltage differential probe very soon.

Just what I'm looking for!  ;D
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 18, 2017, 01:28:53 am
I'll be selling a new model high voltage differential probe very soon. The new custom EEVblog front panel looks pretty slick  ;D
Price? I got another Pintek for a very nice price a couple of months ago when they where on sale from a store in the UK. Do we have to care about the front panel? What is inside is what counts  :-/O
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 18, 2017, 02:09:12 am
For the aged, we did not have switchables, only fixed and you're quite correct switchables are very convenient BUT and big BUT one must be very careful in their use. In the case of this KS using 1:1 probes it could be easy to damage an input with too much voltage applied. US mains voltages are less challenging than most of the rest of the world.
Hence a preference for 400V input rated DSO's.  ;)

Only a fool uses their scope to measure the mains directly.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 18, 2017, 02:13:14 am
I'll be selling a new model high voltage differential probe very soon. The new custom EEVblog front panel looks pretty slick  ;D
Price?

Let's just say much higher bandwidth for the same price as everyone else charges for 25MHz.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: snoopy on February 18, 2017, 04:22:31 am
Anyway getting back to this Keysight scope I just want to say that this new scope has the look and feel of their more expensive scopes rather than being another me too ebay special. This was a good strategy from their marketing department. I think they will do well with this scope but it may have trouble competing with a fully optioned up 4 channel Rigol. However the bode plotting facility maybe the deal breaker for people looking at a Rigol particularly for educational institutions and this is what the marketing department probably had in mind ;) We will have to see it put through its paces to see what else it can and can't do ;)

cheers
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 18, 2017, 04:44:13 am
I think they will do well with this scope but it may have trouble competing with a fully optioned up 4 channel Rigol.

If the new Keysight gets hacked then it's a different ballgame.
But as always, 2CH vs 4CH on some level is not comparing apples with apples.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheSteve on February 18, 2017, 04:47:52 am
I think they will do well with this scope but it may have trouble competing with a fully optioned up 4 channel Rigol.

If the new Keysight gets hacked then it's a different ballgame.
But as always, 2CH vs 4CH on some level is not comparing apples with apples.

I don't recall seeing the back of the scope. Can you confirm it has a network port built in?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Monkeh on February 18, 2017, 05:21:51 am
I think they will do well with this scope but it may have trouble competing with a fully optioned up 4 channel Rigol.

If the new Keysight gets hacked then it's a different ballgame.
But as always, 2CH vs 4CH on some level is not comparing apples with apples.

I don't recall seeing the back of the scope. Can you confirm it has a network port built in?

The spec sheet makes it fairly clear it doesn't. I wouldn't expect the bottom end product to have ethernet, anyway.

It has USB.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: wblackledg on February 18, 2017, 06:09:52 am
Thanks Dave!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheSteve on February 18, 2017, 07:06:42 am
I think they will do well with this scope but it may have trouble competing with a fully optioned up 4 channel Rigol.

If the new Keysight gets hacked then it's a different ballgame.
But as always, 2CH vs 4CH on some level is not comparing apples with apples.

I don't recall seeing the back of the scope. Can you confirm it has a network port built in?

The spec sheet makes it fairly clear it doesn't. I wouldn't expect the bottom end product to have ethernet, anyway.

It has USB.

I thought the new Tek had ethernet standard - so I figured it might just have it. It is many years newer then the 2000X/3000X series, ethernet should be standard on all products at this point.

Much tougher to even try hacking it without ethernet...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: WackyGerman on February 18, 2017, 11:16:41 am
For the aged, we did not have switchables, only fixed and you're quite correct switchables are very convenient BUT and big BUT one must be very careful in their use. In the case of this KS using 1:1 probes it could be easy to damage an input with too much voltage applied. US mains voltages are less challenging than most of the rest of the world.
Hence a preference for 400V input rated DSO's.  ;)

Only a fool uses their scope to measure the mains directly.

Well I am asking why they want to measure mains with an oscilloscope . If you do it , you will see a distorted sine wave and that s it  :-//
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on February 18, 2017, 02:07:48 pm
If priced right, it could compete in the marker/hobby market.  But, even if priced >= 1054z, it's still cheaper than the 2000X series that advance labs choose over the 1000, save on the AWG and bench space. 

You mean, pricing it "right" would be below the DS1054Z?!
Hmm, I'm afraid you will be disappointed...

Well, just 10 more days and we should know about the missing key "spec" of Keysight's new entry model!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: SimonD on February 18, 2017, 02:59:08 pm
What is the screen size and resolution Dave (looks like something 8" and 800x480 pixels ?)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Monkeh on February 18, 2017, 06:33:36 pm
What is the screen size and resolution Dave (looks like something 8" and 800x480 pixels ?)

The full spec sheet is on the third page..
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: xs4hkr on February 18, 2017, 08:19:51 pm
I want one  :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on February 18, 2017, 08:27:39 pm
I want one  :)

For free? (me too...)
At Keysight's price yet unknown?
At any cost?  :P
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: marshaul on February 18, 2017, 09:06:43 pm
I know lots of people get lots of cool stuff dumpster diving, but that is ONE hell of a building you work in, Dave. I'd think a single o-scope was an absolutely killer find, but 5 of them?

I'm genuinely curious what would lead to 5 brand new scopes being thrown out? Test models provided under contract? Or what?

Also, does this thread count for the drawing? :) I actually could use a fancy new DSO, I'm still using my crappy USB scope at home.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: kcbrown on February 18, 2017, 09:28:13 pm
My guess is that the dumpster is where the postal service delivers all his mail.   :-DD
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: jjoonathan on February 18, 2017, 10:06:03 pm
It's a long-running joke. They weren't actually found in a dumpster.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on February 18, 2017, 10:11:21 pm
Do the dumpster schtick serve a purpose I wonder  ::)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: jjoonathan on February 18, 2017, 10:44:25 pm
Hey, I thought it was pretty funny ;D
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: kd4ttc on February 18, 2017, 11:53:40 pm
I always enjoy the eevblog.  But here is a posting that tells of a new scope without any other site on the internet saying a word about the 1000X series! Way to go, Dave, quite the scoop!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 18, 2017, 11:59:02 pm
Hey, I thought it was pretty funny ;D
What would have been even funnier is if someone from the building management had come in & found him fishing the dumpster & insisted he put the stuff back as it was now property of the recycling company  :-DD
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 19, 2017, 12:03:17 am
What would have been even funnier is if someone from the building management had come in & found him fishing the dumpster & insisted he put the stuff back as it was now property of the recycling company  :-DD

I am the building management   ;D (or part of it)

Actually a young girl did walk while I was filming, she didn't think a guy with a tripod and camera in a garbage room was the least bit unusual.
Millennials...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 19, 2017, 12:38:03 am
What would have been even funnier is if someone from the building management had come in & found him fishing the dumpster & insisted he put the stuff back as it was now property of the recycling company  :-DD

I am the building management   ;D (or part of it)

Actually a young girl did walk while I was filming, she didn't think a guy with a tripod and camera in a garbage room was the least bit unusual.
Millennials...
Where is the video? Asking for the link probably makes me look stupid but my curiosity wins this time  8)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Luap2 on February 19, 2017, 02:57:53 am
What are the chances that the review of the new Keysight  Scope will be one of the top 10 video's Dave has done so far.   Dave can you give a date for that. ( March first ?)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: xrunner on February 19, 2017, 03:01:12 am
Actually a young girl did walk while I was filming, she didn't think a guy with a tripod and camera in a garbage room was the least bit unusual.
Millennials...

Maybe she didn't think you with a tripod and camera in a garbage room was the least bit unusual.  :-//
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: SeanB on February 19, 2017, 05:34:08 am
Actually a young girl did walk while I was filming, she didn't think a guy with a tripod and camera in a garbage room was the least bit unusual.
Millennials...

Maybe she didn't think you with a tripod and camera in a garbage room was the least bit unusual.  :-//

don't think Dave is "That Guy" yet in the building. He is just another owner, who is there odd hours, and who has only an occasional visitor, and a lot of post delivery.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: LuckyJaker on February 19, 2017, 01:16:42 pm
is there going to be an mso version ?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 19, 2017, 10:52:04 pm
What are the chances that the review of the new Keysight  Scope will be one of the top 10 video's Dave has done so far.   Dave can you give a date for that. ( March first ?)

Not based on the current views of the sneak peak video
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 19, 2017, 10:52:39 pm
is there going to be an mso version ?

Not that I know of.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: akimmet on February 20, 2017, 12:05:32 am
These look to be a rather interesting entry level scope. About time one of the major test equipment makers comes out with an entry level scope with features that can compete with the runaway success known as the Rigol 1054z.
Even if it ends up being 3x the cost of a Rigol or Instek it could be worth it if the UI is as responsive as their other Megazoom scopes.

However; I'm more excited to hear about this eevblog diff probe...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: jjoonathan on February 20, 2017, 12:30:04 am
Normally I would suggest checking the magical dumpster for the new diff probes, but I suspect you'd find that a queue had already formed in front of it.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 20, 2017, 12:43:02 am
However; I'm more excited to hear about this eevblog diff probe...
Me too although I'm slightly surprised Dave went for higher bandwidth instead of lower cost.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: skylinrcr01 on February 20, 2017, 05:35:23 am
These look to be a rather interesting entry level scope. About time one of the major test equipment makers comes out with an entry level scope with features that can compete with the runaway success known as the Rigol 1054z.
Even if it ends up being 3x the cost of a Rigol or Instek it could be worth it if the UI is as responsive as their other Megazoom scopes.

However; I'm more excited to hear about this eevblog diff probe...

Assuming that this scope costs around $1200 USD, I'm surprised that they didn't create a more stripped, cheaper 50MHz version to grab some market share from Rigol's 1054Z. Something like this being 3x the cost is huge to students or people just starting out in the field.

There is quite a bit of potential to convert beginner EEs to Keysight's brand, and you'd think that they would leverage that. 

Wonder where this new Keysight scope is made? China or Malaysia? I'm not too familiar with Keysight's newer product lines.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 20, 2017, 07:00:09 am
Assuming that this scope costs around $1200 USD,

It doesn't. The bottom of the range unit is priced very competitively to the Rigol.
Bang-per-buck is a different story.
Let's just say that Keysight are aiming squarely at the Tek TBS1000

Quote
Wonder where this new Keysight scope is made? China or Malaysia? I'm not too familiar with Keysight's newer product lines.

China.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 20, 2017, 07:02:56 am
However; I'm more excited to hear about this eevblog diff probe...
Me too although I'm slightly surprised Dave went for higher bandwidth instead of lower cost.

It was a new model, so it is what it is.
New models give me a chance to get to market with it quicker and build up a rep for it before others start selling it. Worked a treat for the BM235.
Also, I don't see a lot of point in competing in the ultra-cheap category, you'll generally get beat by others who are happy to work on lower margins.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 20, 2017, 07:05:14 am
Even if it ends up being 3x the cost of a Rigol or Instek it could be worth it if the UI is as responsive as their other Megazoom scopes.

It seems to be.
The mainstream success of this Keysight 1000X will depend upon it's ability to get hacked.
If the base unit with sig gen gets hacked then it could sell like hot cakes.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: gamalot on February 20, 2017, 11:18:55 am
Assuming that this scope costs around $1200 USD,

It doesn't. The bottom of the range unit is priced very competitively to the Rigol.
Bang-per-buck is a different story.
Let's just say that Keysight are aiming squarely at the Tek TBS1000


I've checked their price on Taobao

TEK TBS1052B 2786CNY (about 400USD)

Rigol 1054z 2330CNY (about 350USD)

:)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: snoopy on February 20, 2017, 11:35:54 am
These look to be a rather interesting entry level scope. About time one of the major test equipment makers comes out with an entry level scope with features that can compete with the runaway success known as the Rigol 1054z.
Even if it ends up being 3x the cost of a Rigol or Instek it could be worth it if the UI is as responsive as their other Megazoom scopes.

However; I'm more excited to hear about this eevblog diff probe...

Assuming that this scope costs around $1200 USD, I'm surprised that they didn't create a more stripped, cheaper 50MHz version to grab some market share from Rigol's 1054Z. Something like this being 3x the cost is huge to students or people just starting out in the field.

There is quite a bit of potential to convert beginner EEs to Keysight's brand, and you'd think that they would leverage that. 

Wonder where this new Keysight scope is made? China or Malaysia? I'm not too familiar with Keysight's newer product lines.

But I bet that students will get a healthy discount thus leveling the playing field somewhat ;)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 20, 2017, 11:49:14 am
Even if it ends up being 3x the cost of a Rigol or Instek it could be worth it if the UI is as responsive as their other Megazoom scopes.
It seems to be.
The mainstream success of this Keysight 1000X will depend upon it's ability to get hacked.
If the base unit with sig gen gets hacked then it could sell like hot cakes.
Why? There is so much competition out there with 2 channels and better specs (for example: the DSO1000X doesn't have a LAN connection which is standard on all competing scopes). What sets the Rigol 1000Z apart from the rest is having 4 channels.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on February 20, 2017, 11:56:25 am
What sets the Rigol 1000Z apart from the rest is having 4 channels.

That, and being able to unlock all the extra features with a simple keygen.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on February 20, 2017, 12:52:37 pm
Even if it ends up being 3x the cost of a Rigol or Instek it could be worth it if the UI is as responsive as their other Megazoom scopes.
It seems to be.
The mainstream success of this Keysight 1000X will depend upon it's ability to get hacked.
If the base unit with sig gen gets hacked then it could sell like hot cakes.
Why? There is so much competition out there with 2 channels and better specs (for example: the DSO1000X doesn't have a LAN connection which is standard on all competing scopes). What sets the Rigol 1000Z apart from the rest is having 4 channels.

about better specs, correct me if i'm wrong but other two channel scopes can't use ext trigger as a signal for decoding... and decoding from memory (i still don't understand what happens in the siglent sds 1000x, the last posts in that topic are very confusing. i should have one to play)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 20, 2017, 01:00:36 pm
Let's see what the exact price is first and then come up with a list of alternatives.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: S13 on February 20, 2017, 02:15:12 pm
I really like the concept of these affordable scopes! Compared to old style tube based scopes you get so many features for money these days, its unbelievable.
Really nice to see that a company like Agilent / Keysight is trying for the a second round of blowing the competition away. When the first series DSO-X/MSO-X came out about 6 years a go i was already highly impressed. Lets see if they can manage to do that this time as well.

The FRA function looks very promising and a nice to have feature :) But probably not something you'd use every day. The training signals / function generator, DVM and hardware Serial decode on the other hand will prove very valuable imo.
And I bet people are willing to pay a bit more for this scope because of its fast update rate compared to Rigol and other competitors. But all within reason of course.

Really looking forward to the full review on youtube!
And of course would be nice to win one ;D   
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 20, 2017, 02:28:35 pm
And I bet people are willing to pay a bit more for this scope because of its fast update rate compared to Rigol and other competitors.
:palm: Did you read the datasheet? 50k waveforms/s. Not that this number is important in any way but it isn't particulary fast.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: jjoonathan on February 20, 2017, 03:05:36 pm
There are many scopes which will cheerfully collect a zillion waveforms / s but only draw the UI twice a second (or so)  :palm: maybe that's what he meant?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: PA0PBZ on February 20, 2017, 03:18:10 pm
There are many scopes which will cheerfully collect a zillion waveforms / s but only draw the UI twice a second (or so)  :palm: maybe that's what he meant?

As long as it draws the half zillion waveforms I see no problem.

(Hint: what is the refresh rate of the LCD?)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ProBang2 on February 20, 2017, 03:38:55 pm
I am pretty sure: He meant the fast response to e. g. adjustments which looks like a faster "update rate" of the display.
Not the acquiring update rate or the real refresh rate of the TFT.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: cengland0 on February 20, 2017, 04:20:20 pm
:palm: Did you read the datasheet? 50k waveforms/s. Not that this number is important in any way but it isn't particulary fast.
Maybe so but for those of us that are hobbyists that still don't have a scope, we aren't that picky.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: S13 on February 20, 2017, 04:29:06 pm
I meant the fast response of the user interface and drawing of the waveforms and menus on screen.
Ive always preferred the older Agilent style scopes for that purpose, they are just very fast to work with. Especially when compared to Lecroys or Teks back in the days.

Auto calibrate during your critical measurement... ugh...
Windows XP booting... ugh...

Also im not aware of definitive specs on the new to be released Keysight scopes. And pricing is still out as well... I can imagine certain engineers would like to pay a bit more for a more reputable manufacturer like Agilent / Keysight than the more affordable brands. Perhaps its a "feeling" of quality or history that you get? Not saying manufacturers like Rigol or Siglent or whatever are bad in those regards, i just dont know enough about them to compare them.



 
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: jjoonathan on February 20, 2017, 04:53:31 pm
There are many scopes which will cheerfully collect a zillion waveforms / s but only draw the UI twice a second (or so)  :palm: maybe that's what he meant?

As long as it draws the half zillion waveforms I see no problem.

(Hint: what is the refresh rate of the LCD?)
More than 2fps. Janky cursors, menus, and measurements suck regardless of how nice the intensity grading and POI is.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Deridex on February 20, 2017, 06:00:36 pm
Aslong it's more responsive than a Tektronix TBS...
Got one of those at work. Not only that it was the first Tektronix Scope that i managed to crash, it also feels very slow to me.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: PA0PBZ on February 20, 2017, 06:24:13 pm
More than 2fps. Janky cursors, menus, and measurements suck regardless of how nice the intensity grading and POI is.

Point taken, when discussing UI 2 fps is hardly enough.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: skylinrcr01 on February 20, 2017, 11:55:03 pm
These look to be a rather interesting entry level scope. About time one of the major test equipment makers comes out with an entry level scope with features that can compete with the runaway success known as the Rigol 1054z.
Even if it ends up being 3x the cost of a Rigol or Instek it could be worth it if the UI is as responsive as their other Megazoom scopes.

However; I'm more excited to hear about this eevblog diff probe...

Assuming that this scope costs around $1200 USD, I'm surprised that they didn't create a more stripped, cheaper 50MHz version to grab some market share from Rigol's 1054Z. Something like this being 3x the cost is huge to students or people just starting out in the field.

There is quite a bit of potential to convert beginner EEs to Keysight's brand, and you'd think that they would leverage that. 

Wonder where this new Keysight scope is made? China or Malaysia? I'm not too familiar with Keysight's newer product lines.

But I bet that students will get a healthy discount thus leveling the playing field somewhat ;)
I looked into see if the US has student pricing, doesn't look like they do. If they did, I would have happily gotten this scope over my Rigol, as Keysight stuff is typically top notch.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ellenmariehardin@gmail.co on February 21, 2017, 12:26:27 am
I would be more than happy to replace my old Tek 2215A with this.  :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: bsudbrink on February 21, 2017, 01:15:00 am
Even if it ends up being 3x the cost of a Rigol or Instek it could be worth it if the UI is as responsive as their other Megazoom scopes.

It seems to be.
The mainstream success of this Keysight 1000X will depend upon it's ability to get hacked.
If the base unit with sig gen gets hacked then it could sell like hot cakes.
Funny to think about, but I can see your point. I wonder if their marketing department has any say in the firmware security. "Make it hard enough to be interesting, but not impossible".
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: azigta on February 21, 2017, 01:25:21 am
I love it when there's a big scope giveaway and Spain can't participate. France can, Spain can't... Great T.T
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: IcakaBG on February 21, 2017, 06:47:36 am
I love it when there's a big scope giveaway and Spain can't participate. France can, Spain can't... Great T.T

I hate almost all Giveaways or competitions, because I'm from Bulgaria and either the competition don't cover this country or the shipping will cost like buying new from local reseller.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ckambiselis on February 21, 2017, 10:19:41 am
Looks amazing, I guess I will have to wait another month before ordering a Rigol DS1054Z (just in case it's my lucky day)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on February 21, 2017, 11:50:29 am
I love it when there's a big scope giveaway and Spain can't participate. France can, Spain can't... Great T.T

Yes, why would they do that?

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: porker1972 on February 21, 2017, 11:53:32 am
I asked the local office about the competition rules. They said they "wanted to open up the prize draw to everyone in all countries, but there are local laws they can't get around. In some countries the draw has to be done in that country alone, and by a government official. In some countries, we have to become an official lottery company. We could not hold a world-wide draw that is fair to all entrants by holding 100 different draws."

You could just enter anyway and ask a friend somewhere else to take delivery if you win.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on February 21, 2017, 03:23:38 pm
I asked the local office about the competition rules. They said they "wanted to open up the prize draw to everyone in all countries, but there are local laws they can't get around.

Huh? How does running a competition in the USA (or wherever) make them subject to the laws of (eg.) Spain?

The only laws they could be subject to are export laws to restricted countries (which Spain isn't).

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 21, 2017, 03:42:05 pm
I asked the local office about the competition rules. They said they "wanted to open up the prize draw to everyone in all countries, but there are local laws they can't get around.

Huh? How does running a competition in the USA (or wherever) make them subject to the laws of (eg.) Spain?

The only laws they could be subject to are export laws to restricted countries (which Spain isn't).
The law applies to the entrant in that country. A big company wouldn't want to be seen condoning/encouraging  illegal activity in another country. getting into grey areas but fare easier to play safe just say "no".
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on February 21, 2017, 05:13:28 pm
I asked the local office about the competition rules. They said they "wanted to open up the prize draw to everyone in all countries, but there are local laws they can't get around.

Huh? How does running a competition in the USA (or wherever) make them subject to the laws of (eg.) Spain?

The only laws they could be subject to are export laws to restricted countries (which Spain isn't).

I'll field further Scope Month sweepstakes questions on that thread in the contests section of the forum (to avoid derailing this thread), but if we include Spain we are responsible for meeting both USA and Spain legal requirements.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on February 21, 2017, 06:39:06 pm
I asked the local office about the competition rules. They said they "wanted to open up the prize draw to everyone in all countries, but there are local laws they can't get around.

Huh? How does running a competition in the USA (or wherever) make them subject to the laws of (eg.) Spain?

The only laws they could be subject to are export laws to restricted countries (which Spain isn't).


if you go to UK and drive you can't drive the right way, you have to follow their road code.
same for the rest of the laws
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: MrBungle on February 21, 2017, 07:17:07 pm
... drive the right way...
Which is on the left.
The whole world did it once, including the Romans.
Italy continued with it up to around the 1890's, but not officially until 1912 (must've been an interesting time in between!)
The story behind countries shifting from left to right is varied and interesting but I digress.
Anyway, left is now right except where right is wrong.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on February 21, 2017, 07:58:58 pm
if you go to UK and drive you can't drive the right way, you have to follow their road code.
same for the rest of the laws

Sure, but this is just a parcel arriving at a country. There's nothing illegal inside. Why does it matter how it arrived there?  :-//

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: porker1972 on February 22, 2017, 05:03:47 pm
We have a European lottery, but it's not open to everyone in Europe. There are rules and laws in each country about everything from tax to sex which can be wildly different... it's not one harmonised legal system.

I can't imagine that Keysight have not researched this and subsequently decided to implement a promotion with the intention to annoy potential customers.

Anyway, looking at the datasheet, it seems like the 2000 series with somethings added and somethings taken away. Certainly better than Tek have in this class, and i would bet people would want a premium brand like Keysight over a Rigol/whatever for the same money, even if the memory or some other datasheet parameter doesn't appear as good. I've used cheap scopes with great specs... there's a reason they are cheap. Their performance and usability is not something you get on a datasheet. The big guys make their kit work and can update and fix things that the cheaper guys don't.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ruairi on February 23, 2017, 06:55:44 pm
I'm keeping an eye to this new scope.  My Tek 620A died last week and I'm not sure I have the time or motivation to deal with recapping it and getting up and running, thankfully no PCB damage.

There's a dealer local to me selling a new DSOX2024A for $1500 U.S., I'm tempted.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nfmax on February 24, 2017, 05:24:49 pm
There isn't much to see, but looking at this one board, it reminds me of the highly integrated and modular GWInstek series using Zynq, so they can get performance and lower overall price and easily swap in out modules to get the other models made.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-scope-1st-march-2017/?action=dlattach;attach=289119;image)
I just noticed that PWA is REV 002 already!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: AndyP on February 24, 2017, 11:53:02 pm
I've seen the new 100MHz Keysight scope, it's a nice looking but if kit. Same chipset as the 3000 apparently. Does have serial decoders, but obviously limited to 2 channels, so can't work with with 3 line serial busses.
2GSPS is nice, price good, on a par with 4 channel 50Hz Rigol. Rumour has it only 50ppm but this may change.
Overall I'd be really pleased to win one. Having said that, my  current 4 channel 100Mhz Micsig works well, much deeper memory than Keysight.
The real win for Keysight is the speedy interface and good sample rate for the price, good for glitch spotting.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheSteve on February 25, 2017, 12:18:42 am
I believe it can do 3 line serial decode such a SPI, it uses the digital input for the 3rd channel. This looks to only apply to the dsox version though and not the edu models.
Hopefully Daniel can clarify.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 25, 2017, 12:21:35 am
I believe it can do 3 line serial decode such a SPI, it uses the digital input for the 3rd channel. This looks to only apply to the dsox version though and not the edu models.
Hopefully Daniel can clarify.
I recall seeing that it can use the trigger input for various things including SPI decode.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ralphrmartin on February 25, 2017, 04:30:31 pm
Only a fool uses their scope to measure the mains directly.

Have you ever worked in a student lab? You would be amazed at what students stick their probes into.  :-DD :palm:

These scopes are targeted at students.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: AndyP on February 25, 2017, 06:15:54 pm
Thanks for the info on the trigger input and serial decoding, they didn't mention the trigger input when serial decoding was discussed.

Hopefully they'll tidy up the 50ppm, it's about the most uncertainty I've seen on a DSO.
Most others entry scopes seem to be around the 20ppm mark (even the Keysight 3000a was 20ppm), though mid spec scopes like the Keysight 3000T or R&S RTM2000 are now in the 2ppm range.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on February 25, 2017, 06:29:00 pm
Hopefully they'll tidy up the 50ppm, it's about the most uncertainty I've seen on a DSO.
Most others entry scopes seem to be around the 20ppm mark (even the Keysight 3000a was 20ppm), though mid spec scopes like the Keysight 3000T or R&S RTM2000 are now in the 2ppm range.

Pardon my ignorance: What quantity does the 50ppm spec refer to?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: AndyP on February 25, 2017, 07:13:29 pm
A crystal / oscillator of some flavour provides the reference clock for all the samples, timing and frequency measurement. For short term high speed measurements, 50pps is negligible in determining if an edge is sharp enough.
Over longer periods or measuring frequency it can matter. Having an handle on the frequency error between two bits of kit that are communication can be useful.


Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on February 25, 2017, 10:36:57 pm
Only a fool uses their scope to measure the mains directly.

Have you ever worked in a student lab? You would be amazed at what students stick their probes into.  :-DD :palm:

These scopes are targeted at students.
:-+
Exactly....and an learning environment where you'd hope there were some controls or supervision of what they do.

Sell products into the marketplace you need them well rated and robust in order to minimise failures and warranty claims.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: bibz on February 27, 2017, 03:14:58 am
Very keen to see what the model/price breakdown of the range is going to look like.

I assume it will bring in the debate of 2ch Keysight vs 4ch Rigol, but I'm thinking Siglent might be in play soon as well?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: RGB255_0_0 on February 27, 2017, 04:56:38 pm
May be a little bit of new info:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWiwVaP0JQM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWiwVaP0JQM)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: kwass on February 27, 2017, 06:11:48 pm
Euro prices:

http://www.distrelec.de/search?q=DSOX1102 (http://www.distrelec.de/search?q=DSOX1102)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: lukier on February 27, 2017, 06:39:21 pm
http://www.distrelec.de/search?q=DSOX1102 (http://www.distrelec.de/search?q=DSOX1102)

599 EUR (+ VAT I guess) may be cheap by Keysight's standards but it's actually on par with Rigol DS1074Z Plus, while being inferior in multiple aspects (channel count, hackability, MSO possibility, memory depth, LAN,  the IMHO only DSO1000X advantage is MegaZoom ASIC processing speed, not even WFM/s as it is only 50k in 1000X series, just the UI & decoding and 2 GS/s sampling doesn't matter much with a 70 MHz scope).

I'm not in the market for a low end scope (already have DS1054Z), but if I were I doubt I would go with Keysight in this case.

Probably for the EDU market bulk buying gives discounts and freebies (EMBD option etc) and then maybe DSO1000X looks more favourable to Rigol DS1074Z.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: MrW0lf on February 27, 2017, 06:44:03 pm
http://www.distrelec.de/search?q=DSOX1102 (http://www.distrelec.de/search?q=DSOX1102)

Hm, equivalent GDS-2102E is 20% cheaper. So it better be hackable otherwise hard to see anything going for it besides bode plotter and sampling rate...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Neganur on February 27, 2017, 06:48:49 pm
not sure if already linked, Distrelec's datasheet: http://www.distrelec.de/Web/Downloads/_t/ds/1000X_eng_tds.pdf (http://www.distrelec.de/Web/Downloads/_t/ds/1000X_eng_tds.pdf)

serial decodes (I2C, SPI, UART/RS232, CAN, LIN) are a paid option. Bummer.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on February 27, 2017, 07:24:08 pm
http://www.distrelec.de/search?q=DSOX1102 (http://www.distrelec.de/search?q=DSOX1102)

Hm, equivalent GDS-2102E is 20% cheaper. So it better be hackable otherwise hard to see anything going for it besides bode plotter and sampling rate...

i'll wait and see the manual/review. AFAIK only the keysight can use the external trigger as a source for decoding (to what extent i don't know, let's see the manual. but if it lets you do for example miso/mosi/sck then it will be sold to me)
The bode plotter is a very nice feature IMHO, worth the money
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 27, 2017, 07:30:26 pm
I'd wait a little. GW Instek has an updated version of the GDS2000E with MSO and function generator: the MSO2000 series. It wouldn't surprise me if they add bode plotting to their scopes as well if it is a good USP.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on February 27, 2017, 07:46:36 pm
And here's the EDUX version (50 MHz, only 1 GSa/s, with signal generator):
http://www.distrelec.de/de/oszilloskop-2x50-mhz-gs-keysight-edux1002g/p/30081608 (http://www.distrelec.de/de/oszilloskop-2x50-mhz-gs-keysight-edux1002g/p/30081608)

Also 599 Euro, excluding VAT.
Pretty much spot-on with the $650 price that had leaked earlier from customs documents.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on February 27, 2017, 08:03:18 pm

And here's the EDUX version (50 MHz, only 1 GSa/s, with signal generator):
http://www.distrelec.de/de/oszilloskop-2x50-mhz-gs-keysight-edux1002g/p/30081608 (http://www.distrelec.de/de/oszilloskop-2x50-mhz-gs-keysight-edux1002g/p/30081608)


FWIW, that datasheet is definitely not the official data sheet. The content at first glance appears to be correct, but it's definitely not the actual data sheet.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: RGB255_0_0 on February 27, 2017, 08:03:42 pm
No doubt be £650 then.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/UK9VbxLFOAezK/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Monkeh on February 27, 2017, 09:03:01 pm

And here's the EDUX version (50 MHz, only 1 GSa/s, with signal generator):
http://www.distrelec.de/de/oszilloskop-2x50-mhz-gs-keysight-edux1002g/p/30081608 (http://www.distrelec.de/de/oszilloskop-2x50-mhz-gs-keysight-edux1002g/p/30081608)


FWIW, that datasheet is definitely not the official data sheet. The content at first glance appears to be correct, but it's definitely not the actual data sheet.

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2189548.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2189548.pdf)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on February 27, 2017, 09:11:48 pm

And here's the EDUX version (50 MHz, only 1 GSa/s, with signal generator):
http://www.distrelec.de/de/oszilloskop-2x50-mhz-gs-keysight-edux1002g/p/30081608 (http://www.distrelec.de/de/oszilloskop-2x50-mhz-gs-keysight-edux1002g/p/30081608)


FWIW, that datasheet is definitely not the official data sheet. The content at first glance appears to be correct, but it's definitely not the actual data sheet.

Huh? I never claimed there was a datasheet there, official or not. It's the web page of a German distributor, offering the EDUX version of the scope at 599 Euro plus VAT; no more no less.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on February 27, 2017, 10:16:53 pm

And here's the EDUX version (50 MHz, only 1 GSa/s, with signal generator):
http://www.distrelec.de/de/oszilloskop-2x50-mhz-gs-keysight-edux1002g/p/30081608 (http://www.distrelec.de/de/oszilloskop-2x50-mhz-gs-keysight-edux1002g/p/30081608)


FWIW, that datasheet is definitely not the official data sheet. The content at first glance appears to be correct, but it's definitely not the actual data sheet.

Huh? I never claimed there was a datasheet there, official or not. It's the web page of a German distributor, offering the EDUX version of the scope at 599 Euro plus VAT; no more no less.

Someone posted a url to a "data sheet," I just wanted to make it 100% clear that that's not a real data sheet before anything took off. :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: snoopy on February 28, 2017, 01:29:13 am
On the back of Silcon Chip March Edition ;)

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: BU508A on February 28, 2017, 07:15:08 am
seems, that the page is not online yet:

http://www.keysight.com/find/1000X-Series (http://www.keysight.com/find/1000X-Series)

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: snoopy on February 28, 2017, 07:33:46 am
seems, that the page is not online yet:

http://www.keysight.com/find/1000X-Series (http://www.keysight.com/find/1000X-Series)

Yes funny about that. Will we magically see it appear tomorrow ;)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: porker1972 on February 28, 2017, 10:01:42 am
Who did you get to talk to about it? A distributor?

The office just told me wait until March 1st as they couldn't provide any details until then. Interesting of you have a price as well.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 28, 2017, 10:58:31 am
Stupid me thought I had a few days left in this month. Nope  :palm:
So much for the planned Keysight 1000X scope review March 1st, sorry  :-[
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: MarvinTheMartian on February 28, 2017, 11:10:15 am
You forgot that February only has 28 days this year? :wtf:

Wouldn't be an early onset 'seniors moment', would it Dave?  >:D :-DD :-DD
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 28, 2017, 11:17:41 am
You forgot that February only has 28 days this year? :wtf:
Wouldn't be an early onset 'seniors moment', would it Dave?  >:D :-DD :-DD

I regularly forget what day it is, and public holidays.
I'm self employed, married, and have kids.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: snoopy on February 28, 2017, 11:39:16 am
Stupid me thought I had a few days left in this month. Nope  :palm:
So much for the planned Keysight 1000X scope review March 1st, sorry  :-[

You've let the team down dave :D LOL
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Navarro on February 28, 2017, 11:50:19 am
Dave, I'm with one of the 1000X for reviewing here. Can I post a link for my review in portuguese language here? It's going online tomorrow.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 28, 2017, 12:54:30 pm
Stupid me thought I had a few days left in this month. Nope  :palm:
So much for the planned Keysight 1000X scope review March 1st, sorry  :-[
You've let the team down dave :D LOL
It ain't the 1st of March yet and the Aussies do have a couple of hours of head start compared to the rest of the world so if Dave works through the night he could still make it in time.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: PA0PBZ on February 28, 2017, 01:21:05 pm
It ain't the 1st of March yet and the Aussies do have a couple of hours of head start compared to the rest of the world so if Dave works through the night he could still make it in time.

Looks like he already found something else to do:

https://twitter.com/eevblog/status/836564313129156608

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 28, 2017, 01:22:50 pm
Dave is married isn't he?  >:D
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on February 28, 2017, 05:50:27 pm
I regularly forget what day it is, and public holidays.

Me too.

I often go out and I'm like, "Why are all the shops closed?? Oh, wait..."

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on February 28, 2017, 06:07:24 pm
... you are in Spain!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Luap2 on February 28, 2017, 06:30:22 pm
 :wtf:  You did not have it in the can ready to go, at the stroke of midnight.
         

           I look forward to it when you get to it
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on February 28, 2017, 08:11:55 pm
... you are in Spain!

Yes, and we have a lot of national holidays.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Jono427 on February 28, 2017, 08:54:54 pm
Yeah can't wait for the video
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ZeroOhm on February 28, 2017, 10:16:42 pm
The page is up!

http://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-2759552/infiniivision-1000-x-series-oscilloscopes?nid=-56007.0&cc=GB&lc=eng (http://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-2759552/infiniivision-1000-x-series-oscilloscopes?nid=-56007.0&cc=GB&lc=eng)

Includes the Datasheet and Brochure 
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on February 28, 2017, 10:22:39 pm
The page is up!

http://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-2759552/infiniivision-1000-x-series-oscilloscopes?nid=-56007.0&cc=GB&lc=eng (http://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-2759552/infiniivision-1000-x-series-oscilloscopes?nid=-56007.0&cc=GB&lc=eng)

Includes the Datasheet and Brochure

Oh thanks! I can see them available for sale here too, with prices!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: bsudbrink on February 28, 2017, 10:23:35 pm
It ain't the 1st of March yet and the Aussies do have a couple of hours of head start compared to the rest of the world so if Dave works through the night he could still make it in time.

Looks like he already found something else to do:

https://twitter.com/eevblog/status/836564313129156608

Oh!  That so totally sucks!  Nothing worse than cleaning up broken glass.  You end up finding bits (in your toes/feet) for weeks.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on February 28, 2017, 10:39:00 pm
The page is up!

http://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-2759552/infiniivision-1000-x-series-oscilloscopes?nid=-56007.0&cc=GB&lc=eng (http://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-2759552/infiniivision-1000-x-series-oscilloscopes?nid=-56007.0&cc=GB&lc=eng)

Includes the Datasheet and Brochure 
but where is the manual?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ZeroOhm on February 28, 2017, 10:45:36 pm
Here is the document library, cant find a manual yet.
http://www.keysight.com/main/techSupport.jspx?cc=GB&lc=eng&nid=-32110.1203274&pid=2766199&pageMode=PL (http://www.keysight.com/main/techSupport.jspx?cc=GB&lc=eng&nid=-32110.1203274&pid=2766199&pageMode=PL)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on February 28, 2017, 10:52:04 pm
And prices are up:
EDUX1002A Oscilloscope: 50 MHz, 2CH, 50 MHz, 100 Kpts, 1 GSa/s, US$448
EDUX1002G Oscilloscope: 50 MHz, 2CH, 50 MHz, 100 kpts, 1 GSa/s, US$647
DSOX1102G Oscilloscope: 70 MHz, 2CH, 70 MHz, 1 Mpts, 2 GSa/s, US$ 847
DSOX1102A Oscilloscope: 70 MHz, 2CH, 100 MHz, 1 Mpts, 2 GSa/s US$ 647

All are 50,000 wfms/s

Aimed 100% at the Tek TBS1000 series, to the point where IMO it puts them in the pricing valley of death as far as the hobbyist/Rigol DS1054Z market is concerned.

This is more expensive than I was lead to believe early on in the development.
I guess the suits took over and decided they had to compete with the Tek.
The memory limitation is ridiculous.

If they are hackable though then it's a whole different ball game.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Neganur on February 28, 2017, 10:55:40 pm
$448 USD for the bottom model according to the prices on Keysight's US website.

Btw, why does the EU website never list prices? It's very annoying and not like I can't just change the location to United States and see them anyway.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on February 28, 2017, 11:00:09 pm
Have to add about $120-200 on each for the prices in this country, unfortunately.

EDUX1002A: $569
EDUX1002G: $823
DSOX1102A 70 MHz: $823
DSOX1102A 100 MHz: $1114
DSOX1102G 70 MHz: $1076
DSOX1102G 100 MHz: $1367

EDUX1000 I2C/SPI/RS232 Decoder and DSOX1000 CAN/LIN Decoder: $190

Also makes me curious how the bus training signals work if you don't have the bus decoding option installed? No I2C decoding training for you!

Now I really hope I win one :P
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: saturation on February 28, 2017, 11:03:11 pm
... close to my statistical guess ...

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-scope-1st-march-2017/msg1129445/#msg1129445 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-scope-1st-march-2017/msg1129445/#msg1129445)

but higher than competitors for the maker market, or durable conscious school labs [ e.g. the 1054B Instek at $429 list, $370 street]

... however it is priced right to replace the existing Keysight 1000 or the TBS1000 series.


And prices are up:
EDUX1002A Oscilloscope: 50 MHz, 2CH, 50 MHz, 100 Kpts, 1 GSa/s, US$448
EDUX1002G Oscilloscope: 50 MHz, 2CH, 50 MHz, 100 kpts, 1 GSa/s, US$647
DSOX1102G Oscilloscope: 70 MHz, 2CH, 70 MHz, 1 Mpts, 2 GSa/s, US$ 847
DSOX1102A Oscilloscope: 70 MHz, 2CH, 100 MHz, 1 Mpts, 2 GSa/s US$ 647

All are 50,000 wfms/s

Aimed 100% at the Tek TBS1000 series, to the point where IMO it puts them in the pricing valley of death as far as the hobbyist/Rigol DS1054Z market is concerned.

This is more expensive than I was lead to believe early on in the development.
I guess the suits took over and decided they had to compete with the Tek.
The memory limitation is ridiculous.

If they are hackable though then it's a whole different ball game.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ProBang2 on February 28, 2017, 11:38:59 pm
Have to add about $120-200 on each for the prices in this country, unfortunately.

EDUX1002A: $569
EDUX1002G: $823
DSOX1102A 70 MHz: $823
DSOX1102A 100 MHz: $1114
DSOX1102G 70 MHz: $1076
DSOX1102G 100 MHz: $1367

EDUX1000 I2C/SPI/RS232 Decoder: $190

Also makes me curious how the bus training signals work if you don't have the bus decoding option installed? No I2C decoding training for you!

Now I really hope I win one :P

I´m curious: Will all the options of the sweepstake-scopes be permanent enabled?
(Including CAN and LIN?)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on February 28, 2017, 11:59:38 pm
EDUX1000 I2C/SPI/RS232 Decoder: $190
Does that imply that the decodes for other models are more expensive ?
 
I think a problem they have is that they risk competing with their own 2000X series. Probably why there's no 4ch version. 
It's certainly a big improvement on the very tired Rigol badged model, and I'm sure it will sell because of Keysight's brand reputation. 
If they had included decodes and func gen as standard it could have been a much bigger deal - AFIAK nobody is yet including decodes as standard,  which in these days when pretty much everything has an MCU is just ridiculous.
I'm guessing the marketing suits thought the Tek TBS was real competiion and not a sad joke.

Do we know if the EDU will be on general sale, or just to educational establishments ?  I can sort of see that 100kpts isn't a big deal in education, but as we all know it's just hardware crippling, it still feels like a bit of a rip-off.

BTW another major manufacturer is releasing a new scope in about 2 weeks' time. Don't know how it's positioned market-wise but may know soon  ;)
 
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: snoopy on March 01, 2017, 12:00:06 am
I found this last night. Keysight's 1000X ad on youtube ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejuZE1EgLng (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejuZE1EgLng)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheSteve on March 01, 2017, 12:23:44 am
It seems Daniel needs to change his signature to "get a real scope", instead of "all the scopes".
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ProBang2 on March 01, 2017, 12:35:29 am
It seems Daniel needs to change his signature to "get a real scope", instead of "all the scopes".

Probably it will be a combination: Get all the real scopes    :-//
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: LeWidget on March 01, 2017, 12:56:34 am
How does one enter the competition for a scope? Im keen for one (I don't have a scope yet), so if this is the place, I'm in :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on March 01, 2017, 02:01:19 am
How does one enter the competition for a scope? Im keen for one (I don't have a scope yet), so if this is the place, I'm in :)

www.scopemonth.com (http://www.scopemonth.com)

More discussion in the "contests" section :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on March 01, 2017, 02:05:06 am

The memory limitation is ridiculous.


FWIW, that spec is "per channel." Still, a memory increase is something that I'm pushing. If it happens, it'll probably be free.

For live debugging, it's less of an irritation, but for capturing & analyzing it could show up more.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheSteve on March 01, 2017, 02:22:19 am
If they are hackable though then it's a whole different ball game.

We can see a panel we can snap/cut out under the USB jack for the lan port. Can't help but wonder if we just need to add a magjack like the 2000/3000 series to gain network access. From there we need telnet access and then a little software magic to enable everything.

Looking forward to a tear down - or a free one to experiment with, fingers crossed.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on March 01, 2017, 04:22:41 am
Teardown photos. Video editing now.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/albums/72157677358745114 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/albums/72157677358745114)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on March 01, 2017, 04:40:41 am
BTW another major manufacturer is releasing a new scope in about 2 weeks' time. Don't know how it's positioned market-wise but may know soon  ;)

I have one on the truck  :P
It's not sub $1k
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: kcbrown on March 01, 2017, 04:43:21 am
BTW another major manufacturer is releasing a new scope in about 2 weeks' time. Don't know how it's positioned market-wise but may know soon  ;)

I have one on the truck  :P

For delivery to your dumpster.    :D
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheSteve on March 01, 2017, 04:48:56 am
Teardown photos. Video editing now.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/albums/72157677358745114 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/albums/72157677358745114)

Well doesn't look like there is any super easy connecting up a network jack.
They did nicely mark the JTAG connections for everything though.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: BU508A on March 01, 2017, 06:12:52 am
$448 USD for the bottom model according to the prices on Keysight's US website.

Btw, why does the EU website never list prices? It's very annoying and not like I can't just change the location to United States and see them anyway.

Here you can find prices for Europe:
http://www.datatec.de/Oszilloskope-Probes/Oszilloskope-500MHz-Bandbreite/index.htm (http://www.datatec.de/Oszilloskope-Probes/Oszilloskope-500MHz-Bandbreite/index.htm)

EDUX1002A (70MHz)     -    EUR 414,00    + VAT (19% in Germany)
DSOX1102A (70MHz)     -    EUR 599,00    + VAT (19% in Germany)
EDUX1002G (70MHz)     -    EUR 599,00    + VAT (19% in Germany)
DSOX1102G (70MHz)     -    EUR 783,00    + VAT (19% in Germany)

Upgrade to 100MHz:
DSOX1B7T102                -    EUR 212,00    + VAT (19% in Germany)

Upgrade I²C, SPI, RS232 decoding etc:
DSOX1EMBD                  -    EUR 138,00    + VAT (19% in Germany)

Upgrade CAN, CAN-FD and LIN Bus decoding etc:
DSOX1AUTO                  -    EUR 138,00    + VAT (19% in Germany)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: rf-loop on March 01, 2017, 06:16:09 am
What is truth about its very tiny segmented memory acquisition function?

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1965EN.pdf?id=2832547 (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1965EN.pdf?id=2832547)

In data sheet text (page 3.):

Quote
Up to 50 segments can be captured on the 1000 X-Series models with a
minimum re-arm time of less than 19 us.

(with this speed even Siglent 1000X series can do real time waveform history with time stamps (just like segmented memory but all time on when scope run)


Quote
In data sheet specificaations list (page 17.):
Maximum segments = 50.
Re-arm time = 1 us (minimum time between
trigger events)
(this is quite fast IF it is true, even Siglent 1000X series can not this speed, only half. But amount of segments is max over a thousand fold.)

If 1us is true, Keysight 1000X series maximum segments/s speed is 1Msegment/s.  Is it true?
Only max 50 segments, are there k missing or is it really only 50 segments?
Segment time stamps?

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: MarvinTheMartian on March 01, 2017, 06:23:17 am
Quote from: LeWidget on Today at 11:56:34 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=82185.msg1148194#msg1148194)
How does one enter the competition for a scope? Im keen for one (I don't have a scope yet), so if this is the place, I'm in :)
Australia is excluded from the KS scope-month  :(

However Dave happened to find some in his dumpster and he is giving the used ones away - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/contests/giveaway-keysight-1000-x-series-oscilloscope/   :-+

Edit: Changed link (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/contests/giveaway-keysight-1000-x-series-oscilloscope/)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on March 01, 2017, 07:04:44 am
BTW another major manufacturer is releasing a new scope in about 2 weeks' time. Don't know how it's positioned market-wise but may know soon  ;)

I have one on the truck  :P
It's not sub $1k
one lecroy 200 GS/s real time or blah?

because screw those kids stuff >:D
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: MarvinTheMartian on March 01, 2017, 07:08:29 am
For delivery to your dumpster.    :D
Wish I had Dave's dumpster outside my place!
A treasure trove of great finds to be had! :-DD
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on March 01, 2017, 07:52:22 am
For delivery to your dumpster.    :D
Wish I had Dave's dumpster outside my place!
A treasure trove of great finds to be had! :-DD

dave jones' locker
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on March 01, 2017, 08:07:33 am
The competition website seems to allow any country, just select 'other' and type the name of your country in the box.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on March 01, 2017, 08:09:55 am
The competition website seems to allow any country, just select 'other' and type the name of your country in the box.

But it's a lie. In the T&C it says:

"This promotion is limited to specific countries and is only open to entrants aged 18 years or older at the time of submission who are legal residents of, and physically located within Austria, Canada (excluding the Province of Quebec), Chile, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Japan, Republic of Korea, New Zealand, Poland, South Africa, Switzerland, Taiwan, United Kingdom, United States (excluding Florida, New York, and Rhode Island), and Venezuela"

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: MrW0lf on March 01, 2017, 09:23:08 am
AFIAK nobody is yet including decodes as standard,  which in these days when pretty much everything has an MCU is just ridiculous.

??? Pico: 1-Wire, ARINC 429, CAN, DCC, DMX512, FlexRay, Ethernet 10Base-T, USB 1.1, I²C, I²S, LIN, PS/2, SPI, SENT, UART/RS-232. Standard on all models. In fact I yesterday received 2408B and it's a little monster with its 128MB memory   :-+
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: MarvinTheMartian on March 01, 2017, 10:14:35 am
dave jones' locker
You mean I have to drown at sea before I can get the dumpster?  :-DD
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: BU508A on March 01, 2017, 10:27:21 am
dave jones' locker
You mean I have to drown at sea before I can get the dumpster?  :-DD

Beware of the smelly socks!  :o  >:D
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on March 01, 2017, 10:40:53 am
AFIAK nobody is yet including decodes as standard,  which in these days when pretty much everything has an MCU is just ridiculous.
??? Pico: 1-Wire, ARINC 429, CAN, DCC, DMX512, FlexRay, Ethernet 10Base-T, USB 1.1, I²C, I²S, LIN, PS/2, SPI, SENT, UART/RS-232. Standard on all models. In fact I yesterday received 2408B and it's a little monster with its 128MB memory   :-+
And if you want a benchtop scope then GW Instek's GDS2000E series has protocol decoding as standard.

I agree with Mike. Nowadays protocol decoding should be standard on an oscilloscope.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: porker1972 on March 01, 2017, 10:54:36 am
£337!
 :-+
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: porker1972 on March 01, 2017, 11:04:10 am
I was under the impression that all you have to do is to hit the Stop button on the InfiniiVision.

But the whole memory thing is not so important to me so I'm maybe the wrong person to discuss this.
Rather than stop, which leaves the last acquisition (with its memory halved from the ping-pong buffer) on the screen you press single and then it captures the next trigger with the full memory depth.

It is available, it's called segmented memory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15HlHemNhY0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15HlHemNhY0)

Yep, I actually did a quick video about this:

http://bit.ly/2bx0Jrr (http://bit.ly/2bx0Jrr)
What would be useful, especially for less frequent trigger events,  is a "repeated single" mode, which would be the equivalent of pressing "single" after each trigger. Maybe press and hold the single button to activate this mode?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: porker1972 on March 01, 2017, 11:26:22 am
EDUX1000 I2C/SPI/RS232 Decoder: $190
Does that imply that the decodes for other models are more expensive ?
 
I think a problem they have is that they risk competing with their own 2000X series. Probably why there's no 4ch version. 
It's certainly a big improvement on the very tired Rigol badged model, and I'm sure it will sell because of Keysight's brand reputation. 
If they had included decodes and func gen as standard it could have been a much bigger deal - AFIAK nobody is yet including decodes as standard,  which in these days when pretty much everything has an MCU is just ridiculous.
I'm guessing the marketing suits thought the Tek TBS was real competiion and not a sad joke.

Do we know if the EDU will be on general sale, or just to educational establishments ?  I can sort of see that 100kpts isn't a big deal in education, but as we all know it's just hardware crippling, it still feels like a bit of a rip-off.

BTW another major manufacturer is releasing a new scope in about 2 weeks' time. Don't know how it's positioned market-wise but may know soon  ;)
 

90% of the work we do is one channel, 2 channels won't matter for basic stuff, especially teaching. Funnily enough, the only time I worked with 4-channel scopes is when I worked at a company making RF amps, we still only used 1 channel but bought 4-channel scopes because we used to blow up a 50-Ohm input every week and it was cheaper to send one back for repair each month than once a fortnight!

It looks like the EDU model is marketing spin, just as Tek did with their -EDU model (2.5k memory!). Now that was a company selling on brand name, the product was 20 years old in a new box.

I spoke to a Keysight distributor this morning, he said education customers get a discount but they can sell both EDU and DSO models to anyone. They said they have to prove to Keysight it was an education site to offer the discount, or they don't get any support and basically make a loss on the sale. Volume discount to Universities would put this on par with all the cheap stuff from China but with software, extra features, warranty and support, it's no-brainer to go with a premium brand in such a case.

We had a couple of Agilent X2000s a few years ago, some additional features were unlocked with a (genuine) firmware upgrade a year or so later. Apparently there will be another firmware upgrade soon for the 2000 and the distributor is expecting more things to become unlocked as standard, so existing customers don't lose out. Maybe there's no need to hack it and invalidate the warranty after all.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Andrey_irk on March 01, 2017, 11:54:59 am
AFIAK nobody is yet including decodes as standard,  which in these days when pretty much everything has an MCU is just ridiculous.

??? Pico: 1-Wire, ARINC 429, CAN, DCC, DMX512, FlexRay, Ethernet 10Base-T, USB 1.1, I²C, I²S, LIN, PS/2, SPI, SENT, UART/RS-232. Standard on all models. In fact I yesterday received 2408B and it's a little monster with its 128MB memory   :-+
Yes, but apart from that its still an USB scope  so it can't compete with the Keysight in terms of waveform update rate.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on March 01, 2017, 11:57:43 am
 :scared:
they uploaded the manual. good.
no real info on the decoders/triggers. bad

1) It was mentioned that some decode functions can be assigned to the external trigger input (which makes totally sense. why the hell don't others already do this?)
but which ones? only chip select as the manual would hint?

Quote
NOTE: The 2-channel DSOX1000-Series oscilloscopes support 3-wire SPI. The MOSI and MISO
signal settings are forced to be the same; essentially, you can probe one or the other
so EXT couldn't be i don't know... CLOCK so then you could do full duplex and limit packet with timeout. why? WHY?
(looking at you, 2 chan scope manufacturers. Probably a pico can.. i don't know, mine doesn't have an ext trigger)

2) Limitations? CANBUS baud rates? UART baud rates? Arbitrary? Fixed?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Zbig on March 01, 2017, 12:18:42 pm
Man, this is anticlimactic. After Dave hyped this up hinting at the possibly game-changing pricing, turned into kind of a meh-fest after the actual prices have been revealed.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: MrW0lf on March 01, 2017, 12:23:49 pm
Yes, but apart from that its still an USB scope  so it can't compete with the Keysight in terms of waveform update rate.

So youre disputing manufacturer claims then, based on what  :-//
Most of Pico 2xxx series: 80,000
1000 X: > 50,000 wfm/s


Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 01, 2017, 12:26:06 pm
AFIAK nobody is yet including decodes as standard,  which in these days when pretty much everything has an MCU is just ridiculous.

??? Pico: 1-Wire, ARINC 429, CAN, DCC, DMX512, FlexRay, Ethernet 10Base-T, USB 1.1, I²C, I²S, LIN, PS/2, SPI, SENT, UART/RS-232. Standard on all models. In fact I yesterday received 2408B and it's a little monster with its 128MB memory   :-+
Yes, but apart from that its still an USB scope  so it can't compete with the Keysight in terms of waveform update rate.
You're assuming it's a dumb adc-only type USB scope, as opposed to a proper scope in a box with UI over USB.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Andrey_irk on March 01, 2017, 12:47:27 pm
Yes, but apart from that its still an USB scope  so it can't compete with the Keysight in terms of waveform update rate.

So youre disputing manufacturer claims then, based on what  :-//
Most of Pico 2xxx series: 80,000
1000 X: > 50,000 wfm/s
Yes, but apart from that its still an USB scope  so it can't compete with the Keysight in terms of waveform update rate.

So youre disputing manufacturer claims then, based on what  :-//
Most of Pico 2xxx series: 80,000
1000 X: > 50,000 wfm/s


Well, I may be wrong, but I see they claim "10 000 waveforms in a 6 ms burst typical", which makes more sense.
BTW, how can you transer so much data via USB? Tektronix says that to get the most out of your RSA306 apart from USB3.0 you have to have an SSD and Core I7. Maybe their software can do more staff simultaneously, but still...

http://www.saelig.com/product/picoscope-2408b.htm (http://www.saelig.com/product/picoscope-2408b.htm)

link added
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on March 01, 2017, 01:02:00 pm
BTW, how can you transer so much data via USB?
You don't! All the data is 'cooked' inside the FPGA and only what has to be drawn on the screen is transferred. For the screen you need 1000 points or so instead of the entire amount of data that has been recorded. Most DSOs works this way as well but have a more direct link to the FPGA.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: MrW0lf on March 01, 2017, 01:09:06 pm
Well, I may be wrong, but I see they claim "10 000 waveforms in a 6 ms burst typical", which makes more sense.

https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/2000/picoscope-2000-specifications (https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/2000/picoscope-2000-specifications)
Waveform buffers: 10,000
Maximum waveforms per second: 80,000
Max. waveforms in rapid trigger mode: 10,000
Trigger rearm time in rapid trigger mode: <1 us on fastest timebase

From that I understand it collects up to 10k wfm at max rate of 80k per sec, then sends to PC as batch.

However I never had to use this mode because it quite ok in normal mode due to some hardware compression they claim.

Guess every approach has pros and cons. Think doing extensive review on it in coming weeks. So far kicks like a mule: 1GSa/s at 5ms/div timebase  :-+ Also I "hacked" measurements system at it seemingly does 6-7digit horizontal accuracy in statistical measurements.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Andrey_irk on March 01, 2017, 01:16:47 pm
BTW, how can you transer so much data via USB?
You don't! All the data is 'cooked' inside the FPGA and only what has to be drawn on the screen is transferred. For the screen you need 1000 points or so instead of the entire amount of data that has been recorded. Most DSOs works this way as well but have a more direct link to the FPGA.
But I thought the idea of connecting a scope to a PC is not only in using it as a display, but in getting huge memory and decoding capabilities. And if you send only what is on the screen you can decode only that which is not much really.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Jono427 on March 01, 2017, 01:25:12 pm
Page is up for the 1000x now:

http://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-2759552/infiniivision-1000-x-series-oscilloscopes (http://www.keysight.com/en/pcx-2759552/infiniivision-1000-x-series-oscilloscopes)

$448+ USD for the 50MHz ones

$647+ USA for 70,100MHz ones

Edit: Woops - some how missed a page and a half between yesterday and this morning...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Andrey_irk on March 01, 2017, 01:26:44 pm

A good review with pointing out all the advantages and limitations of the thing would be great.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on March 01, 2017, 01:28:03 pm
Man, this is anticlimactic. After Dave hyped this up hinting at the possibly game-changing pricing, turned into kind of a meh-fest after the actual prices have been revealed.

The original pricing I was told they were shooting at seemed like a winner. Lower starting price and cheaper, almost no-brainer options.
But it seems that somewhere along the line someone decided it needed to go blow-for-blow with the Tek TBS1000
I had no idea the low end would be an EDU crippled model.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on March 01, 2017, 01:29:11 pm
Please no more talk on the Picoscope here, take it to another thread.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Zbig on March 01, 2017, 01:53:53 pm
The original pricing I was told they were shooting at seemed like a winner. Lower starting price and cheaper, almost no-brainer options.
But it seems that somewhere along the line someone decided it needed to go blow-for-blow with the Tek TBS1000
I had no idea the low end would be an EDU crippled model.

Yeah, I realize you were surprised too, sorry if I made it sound otherwise.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: S13 on March 01, 2017, 01:56:58 pm
Hmm yeah, after seeing the teardown video and pricing i no longer think this will be a game changing scope like its predecessor 2000X and 3000X series were at their launch 6 yrs back.
Dont get me wrong, its still a good scope with nice features and something i would love to have sitting on my bench, but value-for-money-wise its now more on par with other existing low budget scopes.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on March 01, 2017, 02:35:08 pm
BTW, how can you transer so much data via USB?
You don't! All the data is 'cooked' inside the FPGA and only what has to be drawn on the screen is transferred. For the screen you need 1000 points or so instead of the entire amount of data that has been recorded. Most DSOs works this way as well but have a more direct link to the FPGA.
But I thought the idea of connecting a scope to a PC is not only in using it as a display, but in getting huge memory and decoding capabilities. And if you send only what is on the screen you can decode only that which is not much really.
You can either do decoding in the FPGA or send all the data to the PC but then again decoding doesn't need to be fast. One way doesn't necessarily rule out the other way. Looking at numbers which change so quick you can't read them isn't very useful.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on March 01, 2017, 04:22:29 pm
Man, this is anticlimactic. After Dave hyped this up hinting at the possibly game-changing pricing, turned into kind of a meh-fest after the actual prices have been revealed.
The original pricing I was told they were shooting at seemed like a winner. Lower starting price and cheaper, almost no-brainer options.
But it seems that somewhere along the line someone decided it needed to go blow-for-blow with the Tek TBS1000
I had no idea the low end would be an EDU crippled model.

Never mind. After the first pricing information leaked through, I think we had pretty good price estimates. (See pages 3 and 4 of this thread.) And the existence and somewhat crippled specs of the EDU model were clear as well, as the spec sheet had been published at the same time. So there shouldn't be much disappointment now, as the official prices are nicely in line with what we had discussed four weeks ago.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fgrir on March 01, 2017, 04:26:56 pm
Looking at numbers which change so quick you can't read them isn't very useful.
It is sometimes nice to be able to trigger off the decoded content though, which is only possible with real-time decoding.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on March 01, 2017, 04:31:51 pm
Looking at numbers which change so quick you can't read them isn't very useful.
It is sometimes nice to be able to trigger off the decoded content though, which is only possible with real-time decoding.
Which is easely done in an FPGA.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 01, 2017, 06:01:12 pm
Looking at numbers which change so quick you can't read them isn't very useful.
It is sometimes nice to be able to trigger off the decoded content though, which is only possible with real-time decoding.
Which is easely done in an FPGA.
I suspect that in many implementations, the only major thing the decode shares with the trigger is the setup User interface. Maybe less so for more complex protocols.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on March 01, 2017, 06:57:29 pm
I agree with Mike. Nowadays protocol decoding should be standard on an oscilloscope.

Yes. And they should all be sold at the 50MHz price tag, but with 100 MHz enabled.  ;)

Obviously the options are a way to show a lower sticker price, but still sell the product line at a profit. I agree that eventually manufacturers will begin to include some options with the base product, as they already do in occasional time-limited offers today. But that will mean that either the average prices of scopes will have to go up, or manufacturing costs need to be brought further down (without passing those savings on to the sticker price).
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on March 01, 2017, 07:07:23 pm
But the rust option is free.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 01, 2017, 07:13:02 pm
I agree with Mike. Nowadays protocol decoding should be standard on an oscilloscope.

Yes. And they should all be sold at the 50MHz price tag, but with 100 MHz enabled.  ;)

My point was simply that nowadays, anyone who needs a scope, will almost certainly need serial decode ( at least UART, SPI and I2C), so it shouldn't be considered optional. Just like reasonable memory size, intensity display/high update rate.


Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: 1Ghz on March 01, 2017, 07:21:09 pm
Here's Service Guide: http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/54612-97012.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/54612-97012.pdf)

No replaceable parts, no instructions. Unit replacement only.   :-\
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on March 01, 2017, 07:26:40 pm
Here's Service Guide: http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/54612-97012.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/54612-97012.pdf)
No replaceable parts, no instructions. Unit replacement only.   :-\

And they need 60 pages to explain that?!   :P
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Neganur on March 01, 2017, 07:35:13 pm
Uh, skimming through the service manual I just noticed there's a 500 uV/DIV range? I missed that. Although it also says 8mV is considered full scale in that vertical setting (so just a digital zoom?)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on March 01, 2017, 08:06:34 pm
if you read the user manual, yes the 500 uv/div is software zoom + forced 20 MHz bw limit
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on March 01, 2017, 08:11:00 pm
if you read the user manual, yes the 500 uv/div is software zoom + forced 20 MHz bw limit
Unlike the SDS1kX series that has a true 500uV/div range @ full BW.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on March 02, 2017, 04:46:28 am
A BW limit at the lowest V/div setting is not uncommon for this level of scope, but a lot of vendors don't like to talk about it. We go to 1 mV/div in hardware.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: rf-loop on March 02, 2017, 05:39:04 am
@ Keysight_DanielBogdanoff

I repeat my question:

What is truth about 1000 X series segmented memory acquisition function?

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1965EN.pdf?id=2832547 (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1965EN.pdf?id=2832547)

In data sheet text (page 3.):

Quote
Up to 50 segments can be captured on the 1000 X-Series models with a
minimum re-arm time of less than 19 us.



In data sheet specifications list (page 17.):

Quote
Maximum segments = 50.
Re-arm time = 1 us (minimum time between
trigger events)


If 1us is true, Keysight 1000X series maximum segments/s speed is 1Msegment/s.  Is it true?
Only max 50 segments, are there k missing or is it really only 50 segments?
Segment time stamps?
Single segment length, what give this high 1Msegment/s speed?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: kwass on March 02, 2017, 06:09:21 am
@ Keysight_DanielBogdanoff

I repeat my question:

What is truth about 1000 X series segmented memory acquisition function?

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1965EN.pdf?id=2832547 (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1965EN.pdf?id=2832547)

In data sheet text (page 3.):

Quote
Up to 50 segments can be captured on the 1000 X-Series models with a
minimum re-arm time of less than 19 us.



In data sheet specifications list (page 17.):

Quote
Maximum segments = 50.
Re-arm time = 1 us (minimum time between
trigger events)


If 1us is true, Keysight 1000X series maximum segments/s speed is 1Msegment/s.  Is it true?
Only max 50 segments, are there k missing or is it really only 50 segments?
Segment time stamps?
Single segment length, what give this high 1Msegment/s speed?

Yeah, it's just 50 segments!  The Keysight product manager states this and demonstrates this at 18:55 on this video:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRzSxuenpd0&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRzSxuenpd0&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Someone on March 02, 2017, 07:30:19 am
Pricing for the options is very confusing!

$150 USD for serial decodes, 3 choices:
I2C, UART for EDU
I2C, SPI, UART for non-EDU
CAN, LIN for non-EDU

Upgrade from 70MHz to 100MHz, $230 USD

Nickel and diming at its best and no mention of the DVM being a paid option other than the "free for a limited time" in the release video (noted as free with registration on the data sheet). Seems like they're just pacing the Rigol DS1000Z pricing. But the front end on this little thing looks ripe for some hacking :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 02, 2017, 10:00:54 am
Yeah, it's just 50 segments!  The Keysight product manager states this and demonstrates this at 18:55 on this video:
That seems a pretty ridiculous limitation, unless it only applies to the 100k memory versions, where I can see that a minimum segment length might be needed to avoid messing up some part of the display logic
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Daruosha on March 02, 2017, 10:10:15 am
Spec-wise and on paper I'm pretty disappointed. Watched Dave's teardown and very short reviews, i guess it has nothing against the DS1054Z to properly compete. 2 channels, 50K waveform update rate, optional and rather expansive serial decoders don't offer any additional value in comparison with Rigol DS1054. The only new feature is frequency response analysis which can be done with an cheap arb-gen and any other scope isn't that much exciting at all. And 1M points memory is way too behind the competition.

Come on! What they have been thinking of?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Someone on March 02, 2017, 10:52:01 am
Spec-wise and on paper I'm pretty disappointed. Watched Dave's teardown and very short reviews, i guess it has nothing against the DS1054Z to properly compete. 2 channels, 50K waveform update rate, optional and rather expansive serial decoders don't offer any additional value in comparison with Rigol DS1054. The only new feature is frequency response analysis which can be done with an cheap arb-gen and any other scope isn't that much exciting at all. And 1M points memory is way too behind the competition.

Come on! What they have been thinking of?
On paper its competing directly against the DS1000Z on specs and price (assuming you don't unlock all the features of only one for free). Deep memory or fast update rates? pick one thats more important and now you know which scope is in your heart forever.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on March 02, 2017, 10:55:18 am
Yeah, it's just 50 segments!  The Keysight product manager states this and demonstrates this at 18:55 on this video:
That seems a pretty ridiculous limitation, unless it only applies to the 100k memory versions, where I can see that a minimum segment length might be needed to avoid messing up some part of the display logic
the datasheet for the EDU version states no segmented memory. Also they demonstrated CAN and such which is not available for EDU.

I have to say, using the probe compensation for default signals was a very neat touch

Spec-wise and on paper I'm pretty disappointed. Watched Dave's teardown and very short reviews, i guess it has nothing against the DS1054Z to properly compete. 2 channels, 50K waveform update rate, optional and rather expansive serial decoders don't offer any additional value in comparison with Rigol DS1054. The only new feature is frequency response analysis which can be done with an cheap arb-gen and any other scope isn't that much exciting at all. And 1M points memory is way too behind the competition.

Come on! What they have been thinking of?
On paper its competing directly against the DS1000Z on specs and price (assuming you don't unlock all the features of only one for free). Deep memory or fast update rates? pick one thats more important and now you know which scope is in your heart forever.

AND Can.
AND Lin.
AND Sig Gen.
AND Frequency responce plot (mag/phase)
AND Hardware decoding and triggering and mask test (makes a loooot of difference in real world)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on March 02, 2017, 11:02:58 am
On paper its competing directly against the DS1000Z on specs and price (assuming you don't unlock all the features of only one for free). Deep memory or fast update rates? pick one thats more important and now you know which scope is in your heart forever.

Not sure I understand. Regarding waveform update rates, the DS1000Z and the new Keysight are not worlds apart (30k/s vs. 50k/s). Regarding memory, the DS1000Z has lots of it, although with limited navigation capabilities; the Keysight has much less, apparently with a significant restriction on the number of segments.

So neither of the two criteria seems to massively favor either the one or the other scope I my view. Which one is "in your heart", and for what reason? (I know about my heart, and the answer has something to do with the price for a fully option-enabled scope... ;))
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: MrW0lf on March 02, 2017, 11:41:03 am
In case of general educational use I cannot see how DS1000Z could be used at all (except in Russia perhaps...). How you would explain sin(x)/x function if it's cumbersome to turn ON/OFF and changes amplitude up to 40% :D Any scope for edu use must have stuff strictly "by the book", otherwise it's gonna be a terrible mess for a teacher ;) Better somewhat limited than "packed with goodies" but showing plain wrong stuff...

BTW does decoding in 1000 X have event table which covers full dataset captured? Lets say you captured 1M, but heavily zoomed in to some part. Will it decode only zoomed part or all 1M?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on March 02, 2017, 11:49:23 am
In case of general educational use I cannot see how DS1000Z could be used at all (except in Russia perhaps...). How you would explain sin(x)/x function if it's cumbersome to turn ON/OFF and changes amplitude up to 40% :D Any scope for edu use must have stuff strictly "by the book", otherwise it's gonna be a terrible mess for a teacher ;) Better somewhat limited than "packed with goodies" but showing plain wrong stuff...

Oh, look, Wolfie's back.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: rf-loop on March 02, 2017, 12:10:42 pm
In case of general educational use I cannot see how DS1000Z could be used at all (except in Russia perhaps...). How you would explain sin(x)/x function if it's cumbersome to turn ON/OFF and changes amplitude up to 40% :D Any scope for edu use must have stuff strictly "by the book", otherwise it's gonna be a terrible mess for a teacher...

This is perhaps one reason why Keyshit say: "Scrap the Toys, Get a Real Oscilloscope"

And then they compare with 1000Z  here:

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1999EN.pdf?id=2836046&cc=US&lc=eng (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1999EN.pdf?id=2836046&cc=US&lc=eng)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on March 02, 2017, 12:22:20 pm
i didn't even want to look at it.. just the marketing crap that i expected. the chart is misleading, some things are not strictly correct like
Quote
Digital voltmeter and frequency counter: Yes – Free | No

the rigol has a frequency counter

and then saying > 50k wfm/s
next page "up to 50k"
and in their presentation at least 50k, up to 1Meg

jeez.

(also, i measured about 43k wfm/s on my rigol, though the UI was still painfully slow)

they should have sticked to their selling points:
bode plot (very useful)
automotive option (essential. it would be mandatory to do canbus now, in my old high school!!)
broad range of test signals (from the probe compensation port)

and they are great selling points, i'm like 90% convinced to "scrap the rigol and get this one for my home lab"* but there are some question that still haven't been answered. let's hope dave and/or some other reviewer will do an in depth analysis and answer at our questions.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: MrW0lf on March 02, 2017, 12:32:10 pm
Quote
Digital voltmeter and frequency counter: Yes – Free | No
the rigol has a frequency counter

Think like lawyer, Rigol does not have DMM and counter :P Clever stuff...

they should have sticked to their selling points:

...and maybe do some actual performance testing. What gets my kettle going is that in the low end they mostly just "list the features" (often incorrectly!) and that's it. Only in higher end segment you start to see some actual wfm vs wfm testing of known signals in "competitive tests". Not every person buying low end is converted from gardening hobby to EE just yesterday :-DD
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on March 02, 2017, 12:39:24 pm
Now that we are done hyping the presumed breakthrough price of the new Keysight (with disappointing outcome) --
let's go ahead and hype the presumed performance! :P

Have fun...
I'll wait until the first real user reports come in, if and when some users actually buy the Keysight...  :popcorn:
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on March 02, 2017, 12:48:53 pm
Not every person buying low end is converted from gardening hobby to EE just yesterday :-DD

I'm 100% sure there's a gardening forum somewhere where people are saying the exact same things about shovels, etc.

Somewhere out there there's a gardening Wolfie who paid for a cheap hoe and is now spending his life complaining about it, comparing the blade steel and handle wood to some other brand of hoe (when trying to hoe concrete no doubt) and finding it below his standards.

Hint: Just sell it, get something better and move on. Save everybody else some life. Other people are perfectly happy with their cheap hoe and consider it very good value for money even though it's not perfect.


Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on March 02, 2017, 01:11:25 pm
In case of general educational use I cannot see how DS1000Z could be used at all (except in Russia perhaps...). How you would explain sin(x)/x function if it's cumbersome to turn ON/OFF and changes amplitude up to 40% :D Any scope for edu use must have stuff strictly "by the book", otherwise it's gonna be a terrible mess for a teacher...

This is perhaps one reason why Keyshit say: "Scrap the Toys, Get a Real Oscilloscope"

And then they compare with 1000Z  here:

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1999EN.pdf?id=2836046&cc=US&lc=eng (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1999EN.pdf?id=2836046&cc=US&lc=eng)
Keysight should really stop doing these ridiculous them versus competitor comparisons because they have no merit at all. I'm also finding these kind of comparisons an insult to intelligent engineers. An oscilloscope is not a laundry detergent so please don't market them the same way!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 02, 2017, 01:19:01 pm
In case of general educational use I cannot see how DS1000Z could be used at all (except in Russia perhaps...). How you would explain sin(x)/x function if it's cumbersome to turn ON/OFF and changes amplitude up to 40% :D Any scope for edu use must have stuff strictly "by the book", otherwise it's gonna be a terrible mess for a teacher...

This is perhaps one reason why Keyshit say: "Scrap the Toys, Get a Real Oscilloscope"

And then they compare with 1000Z  here:

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1999EN.pdf?id=2836046&cc=US&lc=eng (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1999EN.pdf?id=2836046&cc=US&lc=eng)
Keysight should really stop doing these ridiculous them versus competitor comparisons because they have no merit at all. I'm also finding these kind of comparisons an insult to intelligent engineers. An oscilloscope is not a laundry detergent so please don't market them the same way!
They aren't aimed at enineers - more towards purchasing depts who need spoon-feeding.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: fanOfeeDIY on March 02, 2017, 02:17:18 pm
The spec sheet says that the InifiniiVision 1000X has the display with 7-inch WVGA but WVGA is a bit vague.

I am trying to update the chart here.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/digital-oscilloscope-comparison-chart/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/digital-oscilloscope-comparison-chart/)

Does anybody know the exact resolution? Since WVGA refers to 800x480 but sometimes 768x480 or 720x480 too.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on March 02, 2017, 03:56:56 pm
BTW does decoding in 1000 X have event table which covers full dataset captured? Lets say you captured 1M, but heavily zoomed in to some part. Will it decode only zoomed part or all 1M?

I don't recall seeing a lister anywhere, so I'm going to say no. I'll come back and edit if I'm wrong on that.

The decoding and measurements are performed on the screen data, but as soon as you scale out it'll re-calculate/decode without any lag or delay.

@rf loop, I'm looking into your question and should have an answer in the next 12 hours or so.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Avacee on March 02, 2017, 04:03:24 pm
Never knew www.aspen-test.com (http://www.aspen-test.com) existed, thank you - had always used http://www.keysight.aspen-electronics.com/ (http://www.keysight.aspen-electronics.com/)

£439 - http://www.aspen-test.com/dsox1102a (http://www.aspen-test.com/dsox1102a)
£488 - http://www.keysight.aspen-electronics.com/dsox1102a (http://www.keysight.aspen-electronics.com/dsox1102a)

Wonder why a discount on one site and not the other - are the sales that bad after only one day? :p
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on March 02, 2017, 04:18:37 pm
Wonder why a discount on one site and not the other - are the sales that bad after only one day? :p

The more expensive aspen-electronics.com site is a "Keysight Premium Distributor".
Now you know what they mean by "premium"...  ;)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on March 02, 2017, 04:37:08 pm
The decoding and measurements are performed on the screen data, [...]

Does that also imply that decoding only relies on the resolution currently used on the screen? I.e. if you zoom out to a time window where you can't resolve the individual bits on the screen anymore, does the decoding still work since it uses the high resolution data in main memory? Or does it stop working, like on the Rigol DS1000Z series?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on March 02, 2017, 04:43:10 pm
BTW does decoding in 1000 X have event table which covers full dataset captured? Lets say you captured 1M, but heavily zoomed in to some part. Will it decode only zoomed part or all 1M?
I don't recall seeing a lister anywhere, so I'm going to say no. I'll come back and edit if I'm wrong on that.

The decoding and measurements are performed on the screen data, but as soon as you scale out it'll re-calculate/decode without any lag or delay.
If I interpret the user manual right you can't enable decoding and decode a trace which has already been captured. You need to have decoding enabled before capturing data and I'm not sure you can change things like bits, bitrate, etc without making a new capture. Needless to say this can be annoying at times.

@ebastler: on (no longer) my DSO7000A series scope decoding could get wonky at lower samplerates while the signal itself was still recognisable as a good signal (I2C for example). It seems to me the decoded data is stored in a seperate part of the memory and it may be sampled at a lower rate. Then again the DSO7000A series had a 35MHz limit for SPI decoding but I can't find such a limit on the more modern Keysight scopes so it may have been improved.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 02, 2017, 04:55:04 pm
The decoding and measurements are performed on the screen data, [...]

Does that also imply that decoding only relies on the resolution currently used on the screen? I.e. if you zoom out to a time window where you can't resolve the individual bits on the screen anymore, does the decoding still work since it uses the high resolution data in main memory? Or does it stop working, like on the Rigol DS1000Z series?
If you zoom out so you can't see the bits, you also won't be able to see the decoded data, as it scales the data 'envelope' to the length of the byte.
 
One problem with Keysight's serial decode is the size of font they use is too big, and the angled "envelope" onscreen clips the edges of characters so it can't display as many characters on one screen as it ought to be able to. The envelope can also sometimes cause ambiguities on certain characters when slightly clipped. e.g. 00 can look like 0C

<edit with right images this time!>
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on March 02, 2017, 05:04:59 pm
Thanks Mike and Nico!

So it seems that there is a common Rigol and Keysight "school" regarding the implementation of serial decoding. Not surprising maybe, as Rigol has probably learnt from Keysight during their OEM relationship. But a bit disappointing that the more powerful hardware in the Keysight does not seem to provide much benefit for serial decoding.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on March 02, 2017, 06:43:49 pm
BTW does decoding in 1000 X have event table which covers full dataset captured? Lets say you captured 1M, but heavily zoomed in to some part. Will it decode only zoomed part or all 1M?
I don't recall seeing a lister anywhere, so I'm going to say no. I'll come back and edit if I'm wrong on that.

The decoding and measurements are performed on the screen data, but as soon as you scale out it'll re-calculate/decode without any lag or delay.
If I interpret the user manual right you can't enable decoding and decode a trace which has already been captured. You need to have decoding enabled before capturing data and I'm not sure you can change things like bits, bitrate, etc without making a new capture. Needless to say this can be annoying at times.


That is correct, and news to me also.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on March 02, 2017, 06:46:36 pm
@ Keysight_DanielBogdanoff

I repeat my question:

What is truth about 1000 X series segmented memory acquisition function?

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1965EN.pdf?id=2832547 (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1965EN.pdf?id=2832547)

In data sheet text (page 3.):

Quote
Up to 50 segments can be captured on the 1000 X-Series models with a
minimum re-arm time of less than 19 us.


In data sheet specifications list (page 17.):

Quote
Maximum segments = 50.
Re-arm time = 1 us (minimum time between
trigger events)


If 1us is true, Keysight 1000X series maximum segments/s speed is 1Msegment/s.  Is it true?
Only max 50 segments, are there k missing or is it really only 50 segments?
Segment time stamps?
Single segment length, what give this high 1Msegment/s speed?

The 1us is for the normal trigger, but changes to 19us when in segmented memory mode.

50 is the max number of segments available, and they have time stamps. If you set the segment quantity to 1, you will get one "segment" that's uses the full memory of the scope.

I think that answers all your questions?

-D
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on March 02, 2017, 06:48:04 pm
hi daniel, anything regarding the actual capabilities of EXT as a digital channel?
can it be used for something more than doing /CS in spi? (only time it's mentioned in either the videos and the manual)
other decode inputs?
i.e: can we do miso/mosi/sck in spi (and end packet with timeout. makes perfect sense)
i.e: can we do ANALOG CH1, ANALOG CH2/DECODE, EXT. DIGITAL/DECODE?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 02, 2017, 09:13:31 pm
hi daniel, anything regarding the actual capabilities of EXT as a digital channel?
can it be used for something more than doing /CS in spi? (only time it's mentioned in either the videos and the manual)
other decode inputs?
i.e: can we do miso/mosi/sck in spi (and end packet with timeout. makes perfect sense)
i.e: can we do ANALOG CH1, ANALOG CH2/DECODE, EXT. DIGITAL/DECODE?
..or display it as a single digital channel ? That would be really useful.
Some old analogue 2-ch scopes had a "trig view" function to give 3 traces
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on March 02, 2017, 10:03:45 pm
I'm getting details, I don't want to mis-speak.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: rf-loop on March 02, 2017, 10:06:26 pm
@ Keysight_DanielBogdanoff

I repeat my question:

What is truth about 1000 X series segmented memory acquisition function?

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1965EN.pdf?id=2832547 (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1965EN.pdf?id=2832547)

In data sheet text (page 3.):

Quote
Up to 50 segments can be captured on the 1000 X-Series models with a
minimum re-arm time of less than 19 us.


In data sheet specifications list (page 17.):

Quote
Maximum segments = 50.
Re-arm time = 1 us (minimum time between
trigger events)


The 1us is for the normal trigger, but changes to 19us when in segmented memory mode.


This is weird! 

I like to see this 1us trig recovery in practice in normal acquisition mode with this model. In what circumstances and how it is visible in practice. Very nice if it can.

This I understand that this model segmented memory acq is very slow with minimum  19us trig recovery - just as in 2000 X  but up to 50kwfm/s scope (also same as in 2000 X)  have 1us trig recovery in normal mode, what it can do with it.  Let's hope we can see this demo.







Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Someone on March 02, 2017, 10:18:44 pm
On paper its competing directly against the DS1000Z on specs and price (assuming you don't unlock all the features of only one for free). Deep memory or fast update rates? pick one thats more important and now you know which scope is in your heart forever.

Not sure I understand. Regarding waveform update rates, the DS1000Z and the new Keysight are not worlds apart (30k/s vs. 50k/s). Regarding memory, the DS1000Z has lots of it, although with limited navigation capabilities; the Keysight has much less, apparently with a significant restriction on the number of segments.

So neither of the two criteria seems to massively favor either the one or the other scope I my view. Which one is "in your heart", and for what reason? (I know about my heart, and the answer has something to do with the price for a fully option-enabled scope... ;))
The waveform rates are very different when you compare them in the same memory depths, the Rigols can post high update rates only at certain settings with the memory depth at minimum. I've not seen a good table with all the points for a DS1000Z but the faster DS2000 still lags behind even when set for its peak performance:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-mso4000-and-ds4000-tests-bugs-firmware-questions-etc/?action=dlattach;attach=236795;image)
So again instead of leaning on the banner specs, you might want to look at how it works in real world situations.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on March 02, 2017, 10:50:14 pm
BTW does decoding in 1000 X have event table which covers full dataset captured? Lets say you captured 1M, but heavily zoomed in to some part. Will it decode only zoomed part or all 1M?
I don't recall seeing a lister anywhere, so I'm going to say no. I'll come back and edit if I'm wrong on that.

The decoding and measurements are performed on the screen data, but as soon as you scale out it'll re-calculate/decode without any lag or delay.
If I interpret the user manual right you can't enable decoding and decode a trace which has already been captured. You need to have decoding enabled before capturing data and I'm not sure you can change things like bits, bitrate, etc without making a new capture. Needless to say this can be annoying at times.


That is correct, and news to me also.

This is true on the DSOX 3000A series also. The protocol has to be set and defined before the acquisition. I was trying decode a bus that was shared between SPI and I2C.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on March 02, 2017, 10:56:27 pm
I'll drop the curtain: decoding works that way in every Megazoom based Keysight scope.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on March 02, 2017, 11:06:49 pm
BTW does decoding in 1000 X have event table which covers full dataset captured? Lets say you captured 1M, but heavily zoomed in to some part. Will it decode only zoomed part or all 1M?
I don't recall seeing a lister anywhere, so I'm going to say no. I'll come back and edit if I'm wrong on that.

The decoding and measurements are performed on the screen data, but as soon as you scale out it'll re-calculate/decode without any lag or delay.
If I interpret the user manual right you can't enable decoding and decode a trace which has already been captured. You need to have decoding enabled before capturing data and I'm not sure you can change things like bits, bitrate, etc without making a new capture. Needless to say this can be annoying at times.


That is correct, and news to me also.

This is true on the DSOX 3000A series also. The protocol has to be set and defined before the acquisition. I was trying decode a bus that was shared between SPI and I2C.


Double probe & use some digital channels.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on March 02, 2017, 11:13:23 pm
hi daniel, anything regarding the actual capabilities of EXT as a digital channel?
can it be used for something more than doing /CS in spi? (only time it's mentioned in either the videos and the manual)
other decode inputs?
i.e: can we do miso/mosi/sck in spi (and end packet with timeout. makes perfect sense)
i.e: can we do ANALOG CH1, ANALOG CH2/DECODE, EXT. DIGITAL/DECODE?
..or display it as a single digital channel ? That would be really useful.
Some old analogue 2-ch scopes had a "trig view" function to give 3 traces

I did some playing around, and I'm able to assign the external trigger as a source for decoding. It basically acts as a bonus single digital channel.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 02, 2017, 11:57:29 pm
BTW does decoding in 1000 X have event table which covers full dataset captured? Lets say you captured 1M, but heavily zoomed in to some part. Will it decode only zoomed part or all 1M?
I don't recall seeing a lister anywhere, so I'm going to say no. I'll come back and edit if I'm wrong on that.

The decoding and measurements are performed on the screen data, but as soon as you scale out it'll re-calculate/decode without any lag or delay.
If I interpret the user manual right you can't enable decoding and decode a trace which has already been captured. You need to have decoding enabled before capturing data and I'm not sure you can change things like bits, bitrate, etc without making a new capture. Needless to say this can be annoying at times.


That is correct, and news to me also.

This is true on the DSOX 3000A series also. The protocol has to be set and defined before the acquisition. I was trying decode a bus that was shared between SPI and I2C.


Double probe & use some digital channels.
On the 3000 you can do 2 simultaneous decodes of the same (e.g uart at 2 baudrates) or different protocols, I presume the 1000 won't?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 03, 2017, 12:18:52 am
hi daniel, anything regarding the actual capabilities of EXT as a digital channel?
can it be used for something more than doing /CS in spi? (only time it's mentioned in either the videos and the manual)
other decode inputs?
i.e: can we do miso/mosi/sck in spi (and end packet with timeout. makes perfect sense)
i.e: can we do ANALOG CH1, ANALOG CH2/DECODE, EXT. DIGITAL/DECODE?
..or display it as a single digital channel ? That would be really useful.
Some old analogue 2-ch scopes had a "trig view" function to give 3 traces

I did some playing around, and I'm able to assign the external trigger as a source for decoding. It basically acts as a bonus single digital channel.
Can it be used as a general-purpose extra trace ( that you trigger from, obviously) ?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on March 03, 2017, 12:53:27 am
I did some playing around, and I'm able to assign the external trigger as a source for decoding. It basically acts as a bonus single digital channel.

which could be there to circumvent the 2 channel limitations on SPI and do full duplex.. but the manual doesn't seem to agree :/
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Cervisia on March 03, 2017, 11:55:58 am
Aimed 100% at the Tek TBS1000 series, to the point where IMO it puts them in the pricing valley of death as far as the hobbyist/Rigol DS1054Z market is concerned.

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1999EN.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1999EN.pdf)
"See how Keysight's InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series oscilloscopes compare against Rigol's 1000Z Series."

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-2000EN.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-2000EN.pdf)
"See how Keysight's InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series oscilloscopes compare against Tektronix's TBS1000B-EDU Series."

And I have to agree – the competitors' models look worse, with an empty screen …  ::)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on March 03, 2017, 12:13:13 pm
Aimed 100% at the Tek TBS1000 series, to the point where IMO it puts them in the pricing valley of death as far as the hobbyist/Rigol DS1054Z market is concerned.

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1999EN.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-1999EN.pdf)
"See how Keysight's InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series oscilloscopes compare against Rigol's 1000Z Series."

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-2000EN.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5992-2000EN.pdf)
"See how Keysight's InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series oscilloscopes compare against Tektronix's TBS1000B-EDU Series."

And I have to agree – the competitors' models look worse, with an empty screen …  ::)

And the standard technique of leaving out the competitors key benefit, which in the case of the Tek is the educational module.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: H.O on March 03, 2017, 12:26:11 pm
Yeah, and it's "funny" (or pathetic) how they in the Keysight vs Tek document have included memory depth while conveniently leaving it out on the Keysight vs Rigol document.  :=\
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on March 03, 2017, 12:55:00 pm
Yeah, and it's "funny" (or pathetic) how they in the Keysight vs Tek document have included memory depth while conveniently leaving it out on the Keysight vs Rigol document.  :=\

Pathetic  :--
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 03, 2017, 01:08:20 pm
hi daniel, anything regarding the actual capabilities of EXT as a digital channel?
can it be used for something more than doing /CS in spi? (only time it's mentioned in either the videos and the manual)
other decode inputs?
i.e: can we do miso/mosi/sck in spi (and end packet with timeout. makes perfect sense)
i.e: can we do ANALOG CH1, ANALOG CH2/DECODE, EXT. DIGITAL/DECODE?
..or display it as a single digital channel ? That would be really useful.
Some old analogue 2-ch scopes had a "trig view" function to give 3 traces

I did some playing around, and I'm able to assign the external trigger as a source for decoding. It basically acts as a bonus single digital channel.
Can it be used as a general-purpose extra trace ( that you trigger from, obviously) ?

Just received a unit to play with - Thanks Daniel.

The answer is yes, the trigger channel can be used as a third, digital channel, and it does NOT have to trigger from that channel, e.g. you can trigger off channel 1, and show 2 analogue channels and third digital channel.
Input range is +/-1.6 or +/-8V, with adjustable threshold.

One initial surprise is the timebase knob is not detented - seems an odd decision ( Y knobs are)

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 03, 2017, 01:11:58 pm
And it has the Star Trek screensaver
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 03, 2017, 01:18:34 pm
Re. the query on SPI decode. You can frame by a configurable CS timeout, so you can display either
1) CS, CLK and either MISO or MOSI
2) CLK, MISO and MISO

This should cover most use cases.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Orange on March 03, 2017, 03:12:30 pm
hi daniel, anything regarding the actual capabilities of EXT as a digital channel?
can it be used for something more than doing /CS in spi? (only time it's mentioned in either the videos and the manual)
other decode inputs?
i.e: can we do miso/mosi/sck in spi (and end packet with timeout. makes perfect sense)
i.e: can we do ANALOG CH1, ANALOG CH2/DECODE, EXT. DIGITAL/DECODE?
..or display it as a single digital channel ? That would be really useful.
Some old analogue 2-ch scopes had a "trig view" function to give 3 traces

I did some playing around, and I'm able to assign the external trigger as a source for decoding. It basically acts as a bonus single digital channel.
Can it be used as a general-purpose extra trace ( that you trigger from, obviously) ?

Just received a unit to play with - Thanks Daniel.

The answer is yes, the trigger channel can be used as a third, digital channel, and it does NOT have to trigger from that channel, e.g. you can trigger off channel 1, and show 2 analogue channels and third digital channel.
Input range is +/-1.6 or +/-8V, with adjustable threshold.

One initial surprise is the timebase knob is not detented - seems an odd decision ( Y knobs are)
It's probably an assembly error, if not then this is really bad.

Anyhow, this scoop is not for me; Power supply uses bad unknown CAPS ,pricing is really ridiculous here in Europe, I don't like the way how Keysight has implemented the constant display of the menu on the right side, it contains redundant information also displayed on top and bottom.
How is the noise on the channels ? look like very noisy from Dave his first video.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on March 03, 2017, 03:16:13 pm
The answer is yes, the trigger channel can be used as a third, digital channel, and it does NOT have to trigger from that channel, e.g. you can trigger off channel 1, and show 2 analogue channels and third digital channel.

It it shown on screen as a third trace?

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 03, 2017, 03:38:54 pm
The answer is yes, the trigger channel can be used as a third, digital channel, and it does NOT have to trigger from that channel, e.g. you can trigger off channel 1, and show 2 analogue channels and third digital channel.

It it shown on screen as a third trace?

Yes. This channel can be used just like a 1-channel MSO - you don't even need to be using it for trigger - the ext input is just another input when selecting trigger or decode signal sources.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 03, 2017, 03:42:56 pm
One disappointing omission, no Nth edge burst trigger mode.

Also segmented seems to be limited to 50 segments on the DSOX1102 - I previously though this was a limitation on the low memory EDUX version. Seems an unnecessarily arbitary limitation.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: rf-loop on March 03, 2017, 03:59:53 pm
One disappointing omission, no Nth edge burst trigger mode.

Also segmented seems to be limited to 50 segments on the DSOX1102 - I previously though this was a limitation on the low memory EDUX version. Seems an unnecessarily arbitary limitation.

EDUX do not have segmented at all.


Can you measure segmented max speed (segment/s.)
Just using segments time stamps or count trigger out pulses speed


But if think it as "school scope"  also wwith it students can learn what is this mode in principle.
Also this talk its own story that this is just toy for serious use but perhaps useful in classroom if they build also good ready learning / teaching support material.



 



Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 03, 2017, 04:02:55 pm
Inside the box is a printed EULA.  Contains all the usual crap and looks like it was cut & pasted from a software product.

But utterly pointless as there is no way anyone can prove you even saw it. or even that it was in the box.

"By powering on and using the instrument or machine you agree that you have read, understood, and agree to be bound by the terms of the EULA"

I can't see how this could possibly deemed to be enforceable in any jurisdiciton, even one as messed up as the USA, unless you actually admit to have read it.


Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 03, 2017, 04:11:36 pm
Also they seem to have forgotten to include in the box any reference to the free DVM option after registering ( or any information on registering) - mine had a handwritten business card in the box mentioning it !

The datasheet tells you to go here : http://www.keysight.com/find/1000X-Series-DVM (http://www.keysight.com/find/1000X-Series-DVM)
which then asks for an email address & name, which it does not check, before letting you download a file, and  does not ask for the scope serial number
The file includes a serial number though, with a US manufacturer code. Wonder if this works with other options  :-//
Quote
<Licenses xmlns="http://www.agilent.com/schemas/SoftwareLicensing/License">
  <License>
    <LicenseId>22e870ca-9045-40a1-ba81-8f1f4b8caa44</LicenseId>
    <ModelNumber>DSOX1102A</ModelNumber>
    <SerialNumber>US56240016</SerialNumber>
    <FeatureName>digVoltMeter</FeatureName>
    <FeatureVersion>0</FeatureVersion>
    <!--license does not expire-->
    <Signature>FQ7oGZP4U+cy2JKLdASC/t+w9sC0p3bBvlTxCtZfmCmuT7uGfug/UAzQdLTrdLSi/eWwxl5kHGpW2h9+59wJxTwlOLv/gZwcjP1vM35gCya9XD4si+7Jj3vbl64F4jzMukSZtuHXR6RYIVBUcMM+kooy7fzppk8jBok2R9E2gFA=</Signature>
  </License>
</Licenses>

"registering" with a differemt set of details produces an identical file.

Something else : the 'Counter' measure option is greyed out for no obvious reason.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 03, 2017, 04:19:34 pm
Something else : the 'Counter' measure option is greyed out for no obvious reason.
OK figured this out - counter doesn't work when trigger mode is serial - greyed in menu and shows "no signal" if already enabled. No mention of this in the manual.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: hgjdwx on March 03, 2017, 04:32:00 pm
hi daniel, anything regarding the actual capabilities of EXT as a digital channel?
can it be used for something more than doing /CS in spi? (only time it's mentioned in either the videos and the manual)
other decode inputs?
i.e: can we do miso/mosi/sck in spi (and end packet with timeout. makes perfect sense)
i.e: can we do ANALOG CH1, ANALOG CH2/DECODE, EXT. DIGITAL/DECODE?
..or display it as a single digital channel ? That would be really useful.
Some old analogue 2-ch scopes had a "trig view" function to give 3 traces

I did some playing around, and I'm able to assign the external trigger as a source for decoding. It basically acts as a bonus single digital channel.
Can it be used as a general-purpose extra trace ( that you trigger from, obviously) ?

Just received a unit to play with - Thanks Daniel.

The answer is yes, the trigger channel can be used as a third, digital channel, and it does NOT have to trigger from that channel, e.g. you can trigger off channel 1, and show 2 analogue channels and third digital channel.
Input range is +/-1.6 or +/-8V, with adjustable threshold.

One initial surprise is the timebase knob is not detented - seems an odd decision ( Y knobs are)

Can PK with your TO1104  :clap:
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 03, 2017, 04:35:44 pm
Can you measure segmented max speed (segment/s.)
Edge triggering on a 1MHz signal at 100ns/div, the timestamps show 19uS between segments

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on March 03, 2017, 04:51:39 pm
[...] segmented seems to be limited to 50 segments on the DSOX1102 - I previously though this was a limitation on the low memory EDUX version. Seems an unnecessarily arbitary limitation.

EDUX do not have segmented at all.
[...]
But if think it as "school scope"  also wwith it students can learn what is this mode in principle.
Also this talk its own story that this is just toy for serious use but perhaps useful in classroom if they build also good ready learning / teaching support material.

If the 50 segment memory were meant for classroom use, why would it be missing entirely the EDUX version?

That does not seem to make sense. I think the segmented memory is meant for "productive" use, but Keysight used it as one of many deliberate constraints, to ensure that the 1000X series does not get too close to their high-end scopes, so they can continue to justify the high-end prices.

Edit: typo...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 03, 2017, 04:58:10 pm
I don't think it's unreasonable to omit segmented in an educational scope. Education users aren't likely to get into the level of complexity that needs it, and it could cause confusion as when enabled it causes the scope to behave in a somewhat different way.

My comment earlier was based on my mis-reading that the 50 segs was tied to the 100ksamp memory.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: RGB255_0_0 on March 03, 2017, 06:51:07 pm
And it has the Star Trek screensaver
That screensaver is handy because if there's a dead/stuck pixel you'd just assume it was a star.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on March 03, 2017, 07:09:36 pm
I don't think it's unreasonable to omit segmented in an educational scope. Education users aren't likely to get into the level of complexity that needs it, and it could cause confusion as when enabled it causes the scope to behave in a somewhat different way.


Really ?  :-//

Where are students going to learn about these features otherwise ?
A taste of features that are implemented in real DSO's in not a bad thing.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on March 03, 2017, 07:26:05 pm
Re. the query on SPI decode. You can frame by a configurable CS timeout, so you can display either
1) CS, CLK and either MISO or MOSI
2) CLK, MISO and MISO

This should cover most use cases.
nice.
I'm glad this was finally answered.
I'm making a chart of 2 channel scopes (for my and maybe others benefit, choosing a new scope for home lab.)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Neganur on March 03, 2017, 08:21:50 pm
I don't think it's unreasonable to omit segmented in an educational scope. Education users aren't likely to get into the level of complexity that needs it, and it could cause confusion as when enabled it causes the scope to behave in a somewhat different way.


Really ?  :-//

Where are students going to learn about these features otherwise ?
A taste of features that are implemented in real DSO's in not a bad thing.

I haven't actually once received formal education, at any of the universities I went to, on how to use an oscilloscope or beyond that it plots voltage over time. Not that they didn't have scopes (Tektronix, Yokogawa, HP and later InfiniiVision 2000X) it's just not in the curriculum.

It was primarily hobby use and vocational education after secondary school (radio technician) and places like EEVblog or Agilent's application notes/webcasts that inspired to read up on measurement techniques.
Having one in front of your nose at home is probably the best learning experience.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on March 03, 2017, 10:46:49 pm
One initial surprise is the timebase knob is not detented - seems an odd decision ( Y knobs are)
It's probably an assembly error, if not then this is really bad.

Mine has detents.

Quote
I don't like the way how Keysight has implemented the constant display of the menu on the right side, it contains redundant information also displayed on top and bottom.

That is how the megazoon IV ASIC works, it maps the display for fast updating. Same with all scopes that use that chip.

Quote
How is the noise on the channels ? look like very noisy from Dave his first video.

It's because the updating is fast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znwp0pK8Tzk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znwp0pK8Tzk)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5Cts5nPpcA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5Cts5nPpcA)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Jono427 on March 03, 2017, 11:20:19 pm
Re. the query on SPI decode. You can frame by a configurable CS timeout, so you can display either
1) CS, CLK and either MISO or MOSI
2) CLK, MISO and MISO

This should cover most use cases.
nice.
I'm glad this was finally answered.
I'm making a chart of 2 channel scopes (for my and maybe others benefit, choosing a new scope for home lab.)

I would take a look if you finish it.  Probably looking at about the same scopes if you are looking at this one.  Currently working on parts and equipment lists while I plan and start to build a bench area.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: snoopy on March 03, 2017, 11:32:56 pm
Yeah, and it's "funny" (or pathetic) how they in the Keysight vs Tek document have included memory depth while conveniently leaving it out on the Keysight vs Rigol document.  :=\

Jeez the scope wars are really getting dirty now :(

What about comparing the number of channels  ? That seems to be an obvious oversight !

And what's with keysight scopes always deriving measurements from the display data instead of the acquisition memory ? Seems to be a serious short coming of their megazoom hardware ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaOJanBYlos&t=8s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaOJanBYlos&t=8s)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1tfu0YViTM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1tfu0YViTM)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on March 04, 2017, 12:03:10 am
And what's with keysight scopes always deriving measurements from the display data instead of the acquisition memory ? Seems to be a serious short coming of their megazoom hardware ?
Calling Dr W0lf to the ER... Calling Dr W0lf to the ER...  :scared:
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on March 04, 2017, 12:05:08 am
Jeez the scope wars are really getting dirty now :(

I wonder who produced that video highlighting the advantage of the Tek regarding measurements from the acquisition memory?  ::)
Ahh, wait -- the closing credits gave it away! Who would have thought...

But because Tek have never been nown to be a dirty competitor, I am sure they have plenty of videos hightlighting the weaknesses of Tek scopes.  ;)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: snoopy on March 04, 2017, 12:14:48 am
Jeez the scope wars are really getting dirty now :(

I wonder who produced that video highlighting the advantage of the Tek regarding measurements from the acquisition memory?  ::)
Ahh, wait -- the closing credits gave it away! Who would have thought...

But because Tek have never been nown to be a dirty competitor, I am sure they have plenty of videos hightlighting the weaknesses of Tek scopes.  ;)

They do !! Here's another one. Fair point too. That '>=' sign in the measurements on keysight scopes doesn't instill to much confidence IMO. Sure not going to go down too well in edu institutes which rely on good measurements for the purposes of teaching and training  :( Me thinks that keysight could easily derive measurements from acquisition memory instead of display memory but that would have to be done in software and slow the whole thing down just like it does in the Tek scopes ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1tfu0YViTM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1tfu0YViTM)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 04, 2017, 01:01:03 am
One initial surprise is the timebase knob is not detented - seems an odd decision ( Y knobs are)
It's probably an assembly error, if not then this is really bad.
Mine has detents.
Thought it was odd not to have them - looked at the PCB and from the numbers printed on the encoders, they have actually fitted the wrong part. Pretty crazy that the only way to tell them apart is a barely visible part number - they should have used something more obvious like a different colour plastic for the shaft.
Bet there are a few more out there like this.....

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 04, 2017, 01:06:31 am
I don't think it's unreasonable to omit segmented in an educational scope. Education users aren't likely to get into the level of complexity that needs it, and it could cause confusion as when enabled it causes the scope to behave in a somewhat different way.


Really ?  :-//

Where are students going to learn about these features otherwise ?
A taste of features that are implemented in real DSO's in not a bad thing.

They will be learning about electronics, not about scopes other than general usage. If they get smart enough to be doing things that need segmented memory, they'll probably have moved on to a more advanced scope by then anyway.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on March 04, 2017, 03:55:25 am
They do !! Here's another one. Fair point too. That '>=' sign in the measurements on keysight scopes doesn't instill to much confidence IMO. Sure not going to go down too well in edu institutes which rely on good measurements for the purposes of teaching and training  :(

if anything they teached us not to trust the measurement equipment (in high school all three years of labs were about errors, how to measure them)

also while i was in uni besides the fact i almost never saw a scope many excercises were about when to stop caring about the decimal sign, that's a good estimate. (which point was arbitrary, always one decimal few or too much during the exams. frustrating to say the least)

Quote
Me thinks that keysight could easily derive measurements from acquisition memory instead of display memory but that would have to be done in software and slow the whole thing down just like it does in the Tek scopes ;)
i hear you here!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheSteve on March 04, 2017, 04:03:34 am
One initial surprise is the timebase knob is not detented - seems an odd decision ( Y knobs are)
It's probably an assembly error, if not then this is really bad.
Mine has detents.
Thought it was odd not to have them - looked at the PCB and from the numbers printed on the encoders, they have actually fitted the wrong part. Pretty crazy that the only way to tell them apart is a barely visible part number - they should have used something more obvious like a different colour plastic for the shaft.
Bet there are a few more out there like this.....

Hmm, that is odd. Maybe Daniel can send you another one with proper detents then you can send the "bad" one to me to play with :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on March 04, 2017, 05:47:51 am
An interface bug that causes button pushes to be missed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9dWzzfgo0Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9dWzzfgo0Y)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: amitchell on March 04, 2017, 07:42:45 am
An interface bug that causes button pushes to be missed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9dWzzfgo0Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9dWzzfgo0Y)

Hmmm, @EEVblog does mine do that?  ;)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 04, 2017, 08:15:16 am
An interface bug that causes button pushes to be missed?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9dWzzfgo0Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9dWzzfgo0Y)

Hmmm, @EEVblog does mine do that?  ;)

Yours is DOA! /jealous

Congrats :)

How frequent does this happen? Under all menus or just this one? Not a good start of a review!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on March 04, 2017, 08:39:29 am
An interface bug that causes button pushes to be missed?

Strange one indeed!  We should not blow this out of proportion -- if it is indeed a software flaw affecting all units, I trust it will be fixed quickly. But given the fact that the responsive interface is supposed to be one of the key strengths of this scope, it is a bit of a let-down. Also makes you wonder about Keysight's software QA...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: rf-loop on March 04, 2017, 09:08:32 am
Keysight clearly warns and recommends in product brochure.
"Scrap the toys, get a real oscilloscope"

19 us trigger rearm time in sequence mode is also true on data sheet.
(this is really very extremely slow, just like in 2000X)

But, there in brochure read also that trigger rearm time is 1us in normal mode.

Please, who have this scope,  show me this is true!  And how it can see  by user.
I do not believe manufacturer claims without real evidences.
If this is something what can see only inside MegaZoom IV chip -- user is not there, user is outside and looking screen. So, is this 1us rearm time somehow visible  for user in practice, or is it perhaps mistake in brochure.


Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 04, 2017, 09:30:24 am
And what's with keysight scopes always deriving measurements from the display data instead of the acquisition memory ? Seems to be a serious short coming of their megazoom hardware ?

It looks to me as though in the first video, the the Keysight is the only scope in which it's actually possible to determine, or influence, the specific rising edge which is to be measured. It displays both the measured value itself, and cursors showing exactly how and where the measurement is made.

The Tek says the same value all the time, but it's not at all clear which of the thousands of rising edges in the acquisition memory is being measured. That's not better, IMHO, and zooming in on the edge you actually want to measure is no hardship.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on March 04, 2017, 09:43:52 am
The answer is yes, the trigger channel can be used as a third, digital channel, and it does NOT have to trigger from that channel, e.g. you can trigger off channel 1, and show 2 analogue channels and third digital channel.

It it shown on screen as a third trace?

Yes. This channel can be used just like a 1-channel MSO - you don't even need to be using it for trigger - the ext input is just another input when selecting trigger or decode signal sources.

OK, that's very cool. Should cover a lot of cases where 2 channels isn't enough for 'digital' work.  :-+
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on March 04, 2017, 09:54:01 am
Where are students going to learn about these features otherwise ?
A taste of features that are implemented in real DSO's in not a bad thing.

They will be learning about electronics, not about scopes other than general usage. If they get smart enough to be doing things that need segmented memory, they'll probably have moved on to a more advanced scope by then anyway.

Yep. I think most people here are overestimating what happens in education. Most people will learn that stuff when they get a thing called a "job".

In case of general educational use I cannot see how DS1000Z could be used at all (except in Russia perhaps...).

I imagine they'll switch it on, show them how to set the horizontal/vertical, how to switch on more channels, how to trigger, how to capture/zoom, etc.

Hopefully they'll also teach them not to connect the ground clip to anything that isn't ground. Stuff like that. All things a DS1000Z does perfectly. :popcorn:

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: rf-loop on March 04, 2017, 10:03:46 am


It looks to me as though in the first video, the the Keysight is the only scope in which it's actually possible to determine, or influence, the specific rising edge which is to be measured. It displays both the measured value itself, and cursors showing exactly how and where the measurement is made.


Where exactly? And what exactly?

What scope can not do adjustabe gate width  measurements and tracking cursors?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: snoopy on March 04, 2017, 10:44:19 am
Keysight clearly warns and recommends in product brochure.
"Scrap the toys, get a real oscilloscope"

19 us trigger rearm time in sequence mode is also true on data sheet.
(this is really very extremely slow, just like in 2000X)

But, there in brochure read also that trigger rearm time is 1us in normal mode.

Please, who have this scope,  show me this is true!  And how it can see  by user.
I do not believe manufacturer claims without real evidences.
If this is something what can see only inside MegaZoom IV chip -- user is not there, user is outside and looking screen. So, is this 1us rearm time somehow visible  for user in practice, or is it perhaps mistake in brochure.

The 19uS re-arm time corresponds to the published spec of 50,000 waveforms per second. The 1uS re-arm time must be taken from the blurb for the 1 million wfrms/s on the 3000 and 4000 scopes.

cheers
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 04, 2017, 10:50:26 am
An interface bug that causes button pushes to be missed?

I've seen my 30104T get into a mode like this a couple of times - seems to be associated with serial decode as turning that off restored it. Possibly when serial decode is seeing garbage data, which seems to be what you have there.
 
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Someone on March 04, 2017, 11:01:35 am
Keysight clearly warns and recommends in product brochure.
"Scrap the toys, get a real oscilloscope"

19 us trigger rearm time in sequence mode is also true on data sheet.
(this is really very extremely slow, just like in 2000X)

But, there in brochure read also that trigger rearm time is 1us in normal mode.

Please, who have this scope,  show me this is true!  And how it can see  by user.
I do not believe manufacturer claims without real evidences.
If this is something what can see only inside MegaZoom IV chip -- user is not there, user is outside and looking screen. So, is this 1us rearm time somehow visible  for user in practice, or is it perhaps mistake in brochure.

The 19uS re-arm time corresponds to the published spec of 50,000 waveforms per second. The 1uS re-arm time must be taken from the blurb for the 1 million wfrms/s on the 3000 and 4000 scopes.

cheers
If you look at the comprehensive waveform update plot I posted earlier we can assume this 1000x unit will follow a similar path to the 2000x. It's possible the 1us rearm time is achievable at slower timebase settings below the synthetic 50,000 wfm/s limit.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: snoopy on March 04, 2017, 11:12:09 am
An interface bug that causes button pushes to be missed?

I've seen my 30104T get into a mode like this a couple of times - seems to be associated with serial decode as turning that off restored it. Possibly when serial decode is seeing garbage data, which seems to be what you have there.

And because serial decode is built into the hardware perhaps there is not a lot they can do to fix it.

cheers
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on March 04, 2017, 12:42:58 pm
An interface bug that causes button pushes to be missed?

I've seen my 30104T get into a mode like this a couple of times - seems to be associated with serial decode as turning that off restored it. Possibly when serial decode is seeing garbage data, which seems to be what you have there.

Possible. I'll try and see if it's repeatable under those conditions. Haven't seen it since
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 04, 2017, 12:59:54 pm
An interface bug that causes button pushes to be missed?

I've seen my 30104T get into a mode like this a couple of times - seems to be associated with serial decode as turning that off restored it. Possibly when serial decode is seeing garbage data, which seems to be what you have there.

Possible. I'll try and see if it's repeatable under those conditions. Haven't seen it since
I've only seen it 2-3 times so probably a rather peculiar set of circumstances, but always with (uart) serial decode on 
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 05, 2017, 04:30:38 pm
Not mentioned in the manual, but uou can plug in a USB keyboard for entering label names, annotations
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: synthRodriguez on March 06, 2017, 01:22:23 pm
Someone was asking about pixel count, not sure if that query was ever answered.

Per a message back from Keysight, it's 480 x 800.

Scott
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fungus on March 06, 2017, 01:59:17 pm
Not mentioned in the manual, but uou can plug in a USB keyboard for entering label names, annotations

Apparently it's Windows CE based. What about a mouse?

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 06, 2017, 02:22:57 pm
Not mentioned in the manual, but uou can plug in a USB keyboard for entering label names, annotations

Apparently it's Windows CE based. What about a mouse?
Tried but doesn't do anything. You can use a mouse on the MSOX3104T, as this is expecting X/Y input from the touchscreen. A pointer appears when you plug a mouse in - no pointer on DSOX1000.
Might be worth trying a USB ethernet interface - sure I have one somewhere but can't find it ATM.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 06, 2017, 02:42:29 pm
Not mentioned in the manual, but uou can plug in a USB keyboard for entering label names, annotations

This is a feature on 3000X too. Not sure if it's mentioned in the manual.

Tip: be careful if you plug in one of those tiny little RF receivers that Logitech keyboards use. It's a complete b*gger to get out again because the port is recessed!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: MrBungle on March 06, 2017, 05:23:49 pm
Not mentioned in the manual, but uou can plug in a USB keyboard for entering label names, annotations

Apparently it's Windows CE based. What about a mouse?
Tried but doesn't do anything....
During the Q&A section of Keysights live draw today, someone asked about a mouse and Daniel confirmed it should work.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Neganur on March 06, 2017, 06:02:47 pm
I don't think he actually confirmed that it does anything though, did he? Some "...separate code..." talk
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on March 06, 2017, 08:40:36 pm
Not mentioned in the manual, but uou can plug in a USB keyboard for entering label names, annotations

Apparently it's Windows CE based. What about a mouse?
Tried but doesn't do anything....
During the Q&A section of Keysights live draw today, someone asked about a mouse and Daniel confirmed it should work.

My understanding is that a mouse should work. The "zone trigger" question was the "separate code" discussion.

Going back a page or two to the Tek video (because Tek never plays dirty  :-DD ), our ASIC is designed to use the on-screen data for measurements, and it wouldn't be trivial to make measurements happen on acquisition data. The 6000X has a "precision mode" which does give more resolution at a cost update rate. But realistically, any scope with any memory depth will have a loss of measurement precision when zooming out far enough. For ours, it's screen-dependent, but for some others it's full-memory dependent. If you're trying to make precise measurements, no matter what scope you're using the signals will have to be scaled appropriately.

For the comparison stuff, that's more of a legacy item that we have to do for non-technical purchasers. We don't really expect engineers to make purchase decisions based off of them, but if you were trying to build a case to your purchasing dept it could come in handy.

@Mike, I have no idea why your scope didn't have the detents, I'd be happy to swap it out for you.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 06, 2017, 08:47:34 pm
 @Mike @Keysight_DanielBogdanoff So if Mike swops it.. I can get it used and at a discount, right?  >:D Do it, do it!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: RGB255_0_0 on March 06, 2017, 08:50:57 pm
@Mike @Keysight_DanielBogdanoff So if Mike swops it.. I can get it used and at a discount, right?  >:D Do it, do it!
I think Mike's is chipped  :-DD
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on March 06, 2017, 08:58:32 pm
Not mentioned in the manual, but uou can plug in a USB keyboard for entering label names, annotations

Apparently it's Windows CE based. What about a mouse?
Tried but doesn't do anything....
During the Q&A section of Keysights live draw today, someone asked about a mouse and Daniel confirmed it should work.

My understanding is that a mouse should work. The "zone trigger" question was the "separate code" discussion.

Going back a page or two to the Tek video (because Tek never plays dirty  :-DD ), our ASIC is designed to use the on-screen data for measurements, and it wouldn't be trivial to make measurements happen on acquisition data. The 6000X has a "precision mode" which does give more resolution at a cost update rate. But realistically, any scope with any memory depth will have a loss of measurement precision when zooming out far enough. For ours, it's screen-dependent, but for some others it's full-memory dependent. If you're trying to make precise measurements, no matter what scope you're using the signals will have to be scaled appropriately.

For the comparison stuff, that's more of a legacy item that we have to do for non-technical purchasers. We don't really expect engineers to make purchase decisions based off of them, but if you were trying to build a case to your purchasing dept it could come in handy.

@Mike, I have no idea why your scope didn't have the detents, I'd be happy to swap it out for you.

FWIW i think that decoding with screen data is more a concern rather than measurements! (see the endless discussions about it)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 06, 2017, 09:22:26 pm
@Mike, I have no idea why your scope didn't have the detents, I'd be happy to swap it out for you.
I can tell you exactly why - the two encoder types are very hard to distinguish by eye, they only differ by a very faintly printed part number, resulting in a simple assembly error that wasn't spotted at test/QC.

ISTR the encoders on my old MSO6034A had different colour shafts.
Not a big problem - if you happen to have an encoder or scrap front board  I'll change it but not worth swapping units.
Maybe it will become a rare collectible in time... :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: bitseeker on March 07, 2017, 03:21:23 am
In Julian's recent video using the 1000X, some of the scope's interaction design seems inconsistent (weird autoscaling while changing values) and cumbersome (not enough configurability and granularity, especially in the frequency response analyzer).

The Bode plot is very coarse. Can the steps for the frequency sweep be made smaller without narrowing the span?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahwZTZzYVzQ&t=0s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahwZTZzYVzQ&t=0s)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: fanOfeeDIY on March 07, 2017, 11:24:26 am
Someone was asking about pixel count, not sure if that query was ever answered.

Per a message back from Keysight, it's 480 x 800.

Scott

Thank you! Scott :)

I just updated the chart here.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rtPqMAkNw2bSkqocuc7zcYkl57fsdPVlxzyqcJmbKIc/edit#gid=197124678 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rtPqMAkNw2bSkqocuc7zcYkl57fsdPVlxzyqcJmbKIc/edit#gid=197124678)

from the link here.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/digital-oscilloscope-comparison-chart/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/digital-oscilloscope-comparison-chart/)

Reflecting the changes to other png files on the thread will be after finishing the columns of Function-Generator and External-IF.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on March 07, 2017, 11:46:53 am
In Julian's recent video using the 1000X, some of the scope's interaction design seems inconsistent (weird autoscaling while changing values) and cumbersome (not enough configurability and granularity, especially in the frequency response analyzer).

Yes, that is my complaint with it too. Fulfills it's educational role, but it's not a fully configurable replacement for a good analyser.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on March 07, 2017, 11:51:23 am
Maybe it will become a rare collectible in time... :)

Once they hit a certain collectible premium on Ebay you'll have people modding units to remove detents and selling fakes ;D
Reminds me of the fake Red Dot HP35 Calculators
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 07, 2017, 01:43:54 pm
In Julian's recent video using the 1000X, some of the scope's interaction design seems inconsistent (weird autoscaling while changing values) and cumbersome (not enough configurability and granularity, especially in the frequency response analyzer).

Yes, that is my complaint with it too. Fulfills it's educational role, but it's not a fully configurable replacement for a good analyser.
Just tried it, and it does look pretty crusty- only 10 points on the graph makes it a bit of a gimmick.

The function in the PSU analysis on the MSOX3104T allows 50 points, which is rather better, but still only does the frequency in decades.

You can probably get more informative, and certainly faster displays by using a slow timebase, setting up the wavegen for frequency modulation on a ramp with 0% symmetry, and  triggering on the Wavegen modulation source
 
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 07, 2017, 02:08:04 pm
Comparison between 1000X and 3000X - can't see any reason to limit it to 10 points. 1000x also seems very slow to produce so few results.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 07, 2017, 02:16:38 pm
While hunting for USB LAN interface, I came across this, and yes, it works!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 07, 2017, 02:18:05 pm
While hunting for USB LAN interface, I came across this, and yes, it works!

So I guess it also saves to a USB memory drive? Like, what normal people use  :-DD
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Zbig on March 07, 2017, 04:22:15 pm
At the risk of going OT, that's one slim floppy drive. I wonder how they managed to make it all (drive, eject mechanism, head actuator, etc.) so low profile. Someone took pride in designing it, seems almost not worth the effort for such an obsolete medium.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: GlowingGhoul on March 07, 2017, 06:04:44 pm
While hunting for USB LAN interface, I came across this, and yes, it works!

I wouldn't trust my valuable data to 3.5" floppies. They haven't been in the market long enough to have a sufficient track record of reliability.

Stick to tried and tested tech. Luckily, there are MFM to USB interfaces that will allow me to hook up my Shugart 8" floppy drive to my MSOX-3000T.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZCxzYmUX3WA/maxresdefault.jpg)

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on March 07, 2017, 08:02:03 pm

The Bode plot is very coarse. Can the steps for the frequency sweep be made smaller without narrowing the span?


I'm pushing for more granularity. I'm being told the settings are like this to make sure the test doesn't take to long, but it seems technically feasible to add more flexibility. I'll be pushing for that (but this is not a commitment).
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 07, 2017, 08:03:51 pm
Silly argument. I can wait (maybe it could display an estimated time for running the test with the current settings?)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 07, 2017, 10:49:06 pm

The Bode plot is very coarse. Can the steps for the frequency sweep be made smaller without narrowing the span?


I'm pushing for more granularity. I'm being told the settings are like this to make sure the test doesn't take to long, but it seems technically feasible to add more flexibility. I'll be pushing for that (but this is not a commitment).
The MSOX3104 lets you set the number of steps, so the user can tradeoff between time and detail.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: bitseeker on March 07, 2017, 11:47:17 pm

The Bode plot is very coarse. Can the steps for the frequency sweep be made smaller without narrowing the span?


I'm pushing for more granularity. I'm being told the settings are like this to make sure the test doesn't take to long, but it seems technically feasible to add more flexibility. I'll be pushing for that (but this is not a commitment).

Thanks, Daniel. For fear that it would take too long is an odd reason to limit it so much. That's why progress bars and cancel buttons were invented. Can't wait? Cancel it and reduce the resolution. Anyway, hopefully they'll see the light.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: David Hess on March 08, 2017, 05:48:05 pm
Or implement the bode plot using a step or impulse from the AWG or an external source.  If a step is used, then the input has to be differentiated before the FFT.  This does not yield the same dynamic range as a swept measurement but it can operate in real time.

The documentation says that the FFT will display the phase information but I am not sure if that is only in bode plot mode and unfortunately differentiation is missing from the math functions limiting its usefulness anyway.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: synthRodriguez on March 09, 2017, 09:14:58 pm
Bummer, it's got a fan in it.  >:(

Pretty loud too. My application is in a quiet, audio-based environment where I need to hear subtle changes in musical pitch.

The 200 Hz or so fan whine is going to be a real drag.  |O

Will probably tear into it to change the fan out to something quieter after the warranty runs out. Oh well.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 09, 2017, 10:08:12 pm
Bummer, it's got a fan in it.  >:(

Pretty loud too. My application is in a quiet, audio-based environment where I need to hear subtle changes in musical pitch.

The 200 Hz or so fan whine is going to be a real drag.  |O

Will probably tear into it to change the fan out to something quieter after the warranty runs out. Oh well.
Maybe do a water cooling mod  :D
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: David Hess on March 10, 2017, 02:39:58 am
Pretty loud too. My application is in a quiet, audio-based environment where I need to hear subtle changes in musical pitch.

The old DSO that I use the most has a custom fan which is both large and looks like something to drive a wind tunnel but is practically silent.  A couple of my most used analog oscilloscopes are completely silent which can be a problem as well; I have left both on at one time or another without noticing for a week.

I do not know why so many test instruments now have such loud fans.  Maybe thermal engineering is considered too simple to be given enough consideration.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: znroot on March 10, 2017, 07:26:58 am
But the scope is 2GS/s when it's single channel or also when it is double channel? >:D
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on March 10, 2017, 09:25:05 am
March must be crazy scope release month.
I will have my hands on another new unreleased low end scope mid next week, and another middling range one is imminent too.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on March 10, 2017, 09:31:53 am
March must be crazy scope release month.
I will have my hands on another new unreleased low end scope mid next week, and another middling range one is imminent too.
Might the model # end in X-E ?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: synthRodriguez on March 10, 2017, 02:48:09 pm
Manual: The fan draws air in from the left side and bottom of the oscilloscope and pushes it out behind the oscilloscope.

Mine's the opposite, sucking in air from behind and blowing it out the side and bottom. Fan installed backwards?

Wonder if that might be contributing to the noise...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 10, 2017, 02:51:29 pm
Manual: The fan draws air in from the left side and bottom of the oscilloscope and pushes it out behind the oscilloscope.

Mine's the opposite, sucking in air from behind and blowing it out the side and bottom. Fan installed backwards?

Wonder if that might be contributing to the noise...

That manual description must be wrong? Weird. The fan should be blowing air onto the heatsinks (blowing air into the oscilloscope), surely?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on March 10, 2017, 02:53:50 pm
March must be crazy scope release month.
I will have my hands on another new unreleased low end scope mid next week, and another middling range one is imminent too.
anything us commoners will be able to know before 31st march? there is a certain, interesting promotion that ends that day and a place for an upper-low range scope on this bench  ::)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 10, 2017, 03:01:14 pm
Manual: The fan draws air in from the left side and bottom of the oscilloscope and pushes it out behind the oscilloscope.

Mine's the opposite, sucking in air from behind and blowing it out the side and bottom. Fan installed backwards?
Mine is that way as well.
As there is one inlet and one outlet I doubt it makes a lot of difference.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 10, 2017, 03:05:53 pm
March must be crazy scope release month.
I will have my hands on another new unreleased low end scope mid next week, and another middling range one is imminent too.
anything us commoners will be able to know before 31st march? there is a certain, interesting promotion that ends that day and a place for an upper-low range scope on this bench  ::)
There is a new scope due out on March 14th, presumably to coincide with Embedded World. Don't know price category - I was promised one  "before release" but not heard anything from them for a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 10, 2017, 04:45:57 pm
Comparison between 1000X and 3000X - can't see any reason to limit it to 10 points. 1000x also seems very slow to produce so few results.
Looks like there is a limit on number of points per decade, not total points. Sweep from 20Hz to 20MHz looks quite smooth. I counted about 50 points.
This looks like it may actually be more of a bug, still not really usefule for anything but teaching.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 10, 2017, 05:19:41 pm
Something else I've just noticed - not sure if this is a bug or a consequence of some hardware limitation.

Although you can set up SPI decode to frame using a clock timeout instead of needing CS, you still can't assign MOSI and MISO to different
channels, despite there being 3 inputs available, for clock, MOSI and MISO.

The fact that it displays decode lines for MISO and MOSI suggests to me that it is actually a bug. - Daniel ?

 
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on March 10, 2017, 05:34:26 pm
Something else I've just noticed - not sure if this is a bug or a consequence of some hardware limitation.

Although you can set up SPI decode to frame using a clock timeout instead of needing CS, you still can't assign MOSI and MISO to different
channels, despite there being 3 inputs available, for clock, MOSI and MISO.



Interesting, I'll take a look at that
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on March 10, 2017, 05:36:05 pm
Also, can confirm that the limit is currently on points-per-decade, not total points. I'm having ongoing discussions with R&D about getting the Bode Plot to a higher and more-useful level. Thank you all for the feedback!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 10, 2017, 05:52:30 pm
Something else I've just noticed - not sure if this is a bug or a consequence of some hardware limitation.

Although you can set up SPI decode to frame using a clock timeout instead of needing CS, you still can't assign MOSI and MISO to different
channels, despite there being 3 inputs available, for clock, MOSI and MISO.



Interesting, I'll take a look at that
Just played a bit more. I can't see any way in which the 2 seperate decode displays can ever display anything different.
It will not let you assign MOSI and MISO to different channels - changing one always sets the other to the same, even if there is a spare channel available.
There does not appear to be a constraint on which channels are used for what, simply that MOSI and MISO are always the same channel.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on March 10, 2017, 11:01:49 pm
This is the reason i previously kept asking the question on and on. in the manual it is written that only CS can be assigned to digital channel (apparently not true) and that only miso or mosi could be selected. the second part seems to be true.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on March 11, 2017, 12:24:30 am
March must be crazy scope release month.
I will have my hands on another new unreleased low end scope mid next week, and another middling range one is imminent too.
anything us commoners will be able to know before 31st march? there is a certain, interesting promotion that ends that day and a place for an upper-low range scope on this bench  ::)
There is a new scope due out on March 14th, presumably to coincide with Embedded World. Don't know price category - I was promised one  "before release" but not heard anything from them for a couple of weeks.

Same here.
Pricing is in the low 4 digit category (I don't know exact) for the mid March one (think Rigol 2000), 4 channel, 10 bit ADC, MSO, big high res touch screen. Looks impressive on paper, they are going to town with 5 different competitor comparison PDF's.
Curiously they even mention electronics hobbyists on the datsheet.

The other ones is Rigol 1054Z level pricing but has yet to be set.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 11, 2017, 01:20:36 am
This is the reason i previously kept asking the question on and on. in the manual it is written that only CS can be assigned to digital channel (apparently not true) and that only miso or mosi could be selected. the second part seems to be true.
I couldn't see anywhere it says this, though it does say that MISO & MOSI display the same, which is true but an unnecessary limitation due to the clock timeout framing mode. 
Quote
NOTE:
 The 2-channel DSOX1000-Series oscilloscopes support 3-wire SPI.
The MOSI and MISO signal settings are forced to be the same; essentially, you can probe one or the other.

Like the datasheet, the user manual makes no mention that EXT is a displayable digital channel - there isn't a single screenshot showing it.
I'm beginning to suspect maybe this was a feature they added at a fairly late stage and forgot to document
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: David Hess on March 11, 2017, 01:50:17 am
I'm beginning to suspect maybe this was a feature they added at a fairly late stage and forgot to document.

The documentation is missing so many things that I wonder if it was not completed.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on March 11, 2017, 02:10:25 am
March must be crazy scope release month.
I will have my hands on another new unreleased low end scope mid next week, and another middling range one is imminent too.
anything us commoners will be able to know before 31st march? there is a certain, interesting promotion that ends that day and a place for an upper-low range scope on this bench  ::)
There is a new scope due out on March 14th, presumably to coincide with Embedded World. Don't know price category - I was promised one  "before release" but not heard anything from them for a couple of weeks.
Same here.
Pricing is in the low 4 digit category (I don't know exact) for the mid March one (think Rigol 2000), 4 channel, 10 bit ADC, MSO, big high res touch screen.
That sounds really interesting!  :popcorn:
Can you reveal more specs or do we really have to wait until next week?  :'(
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on March 11, 2017, 05:47:38 am
Hopefully not a rigol. then i wouldn't care how appaling it is on paper
i can wait 3---- 4 days no problem  ;D
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Carrington on March 11, 2017, 06:17:23 am
There is a new scope due out on March 14th, presumably to coincide with Embedded World...

Interesting! So, maybe, it's one of these:
www.embedded-world.de/en/ausstellerprodukte/edb3searchnew?zip=&catids=&halls=&countries=&edbid=&filterchar=*&items=100&search=oscilloscope&tab=1 (http://www.embedded-world.de/en/ausstellerprodukte/edb3searchnew?zip=&catids=&halls=&countries=&edbid=&filterchar=*&items=100&search=oscilloscope&tab=1)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on March 11, 2017, 06:20:25 am
Hopefully not a rigol. then i wouldn't care how appaling it is on paper
i can wait 3---- 4 days no problem  ;D

If you have a few $K to spend (base model starts at under US$1900), then yes, I'd wait a few days...
It ain't no Rigol. They do a direct comparison with the Rigol 2000A
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on March 11, 2017, 06:29:29 am
Interesting! So, maybe, it's one of these:
www.embedded-world.de/en/ausstellerprodukte/edb3searchnew?zip=&catids=&halls=&countries=&edbid=&filterchar=*&items=100&search=oscilloscope&tab=1 (http://www.embedded-world.de/en/ausstellerprodukte/edb3searchnew?zip=&catids=&halls=&countries=&edbid=&filterchar=*&items=100&search=oscilloscope&tab=1)

Yep, they will be there, but not one of those marked NEW.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Carrington on March 11, 2017, 06:34:32 am
Yep, they will be there, but not one of those marked NEW.
:o Wow! It seem like Top Secret until 14 March.  :scared:
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: 1Ghz on March 11, 2017, 07:41:35 am
Yep, they will be there, but not one of those marked NEW.

Is it Keysight or R&S?
If it's R&S, I think I found one.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: snoopy on March 11, 2017, 09:08:25 am
March must be crazy scope release month.
I will have my hands on another new unreleased low end scope mid next week, and another middling range one is imminent too.
anything us commoners will be able to know before 31st march? there is a certain, interesting promotion that ends that day and a place for an upper-low range scope on this bench  ::)
There is a new scope due out on March 14th, presumably to coincide with Embedded World. Don't know price category - I was promised one  "before release" but not heard anything from them for a couple of weeks.

Same here.
Pricing is in the low 4 digit category (I don't know exact) for the mid March one (think Rigol 2000), 4 channel, 10 bit ADC, MSO, big high res touch screen. Looks impressive on paper, they are going to town with 5 different competitor comparison PDF's.
Curiously they even mention electronics hobbyists on the datsheet.

The other ones is Rigol 1054Z level pricing but has yet to be set.

Big screen and 10 bit ADC - sounds like a Lecroy ;)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Someone on March 11, 2017, 10:28:48 am
March must be crazy scope release month.
I will have my hands on another new unreleased low end scope mid next week, and another middling range one is imminent too.
anything us commoners will be able to know before 31st march? there is a certain, interesting promotion that ends that day and a place for an upper-low range scope on this bench  ::)
There is a new scope due out on March 14th, presumably to coincide with Embedded World. Don't know price category - I was promised one  "before release" but not heard anything from them for a couple of weeks.

Same here.
Pricing is in the low 4 digit category (I don't know exact) for the mid March one (think Rigol 2000), 4 channel, 10 bit ADC, MSO, big high res touch screen. Looks impressive on paper, they are going to town with 5 different competitor comparison PDF's.
Curiously they even mention electronics hobbyists on the datsheet.

The other ones is Rigol 1054Z level pricing but has yet to be set.

Big screen and 10 bit ADC - sounds like a Lecroy ;)
Except:
Looks impressive on paper, they are going to town with 5 different competitor comparison PDF's.
Which has traditionally been the play sheet for Tektronix and Agilent/Keysight. Tek 2000/3000 are long in the tooth while Lecroy have the recent addition of the wave surfer 3000 in the $x000 market so Tek would be a solid bet or possibly Hameg/R&S but again they don't push comparisons with competitors.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Carrington on March 11, 2017, 10:43:48 am
Tektronix, really?
TeK 2017-2018 Full-Line: http://uk.tek.com/sites/tek.com/files/media/document/resources/Tek-Full-Line-Product-Catalog-48W19265.pdf (http://uk.tek.com/sites/tek.com/files/media/document/resources/Tek-Full-Line-Product-Catalog-48W19265.pdf)



I don't know for sure, but I bet that it come from one of these manufacturers:
   - Teledyne LeCroy GmbH
   - Rohde & Schwarz GmbH & Co. KG
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: saturation on March 11, 2017, 04:16:29 pm
GWInstek's MSO2000E is 'newish' as not seen in the wild in the USA to date.

https://www.embedded-world.de/Edb/Edb3/LoadPressInfo/73644 (https://www.embedded-world.de/Edb/Edb3/LoadPressInfo/73644)





Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Petter on March 11, 2017, 05:38:50 pm
I have been spending way too much time looking to see if the base 50MHz EDU version is hackable to 220MHz/4Gs/S

I appreciate it is early days, but does anybody know if that is the case?

Best regards
Petter
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Monkeh on March 11, 2017, 05:54:38 pm
I have been spending way too much time looking to see if the base 50MHz EDU version is hackable to 220MHz/4Gs/S

I appreciate it is early days, but does anybody know if that is the case?

Best regards
Petter

Not yet.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: znroot on March 13, 2017, 01:52:20 pm
Your specifications address to a new R&S scope. 4ch, 10 bit ADC and touch in that price range may be very interesting 😎
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on March 17, 2017, 12:00:38 pm
Still comparing the 1102G with the SDS1102X+
Still undecided on which one to get for home

There are a couple of information on decodes i can't find. (I am sure i saw them once but i re read datasheet and user manual, nothing)

What are the limits on baud rate / clock in the various decodes?
i.e: According to datasheet UART in the siglent can go up to 330.4 kbps (slow-ish)

Also, could somebody that has both of them take a picture of them side by side, maybe with a signal on it? (dave, could you? in theory the sds1000X-E is in the same form factor as the 1000x+?)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 17, 2017, 12:08:05 pm
Still comparing the 1102G with the SDS1102X+
Still undecided on which one to get for home

There are a couple of information on decodes i can't find. (I am sure i saw them once but i re read datasheet and user manual, nothing)

What are the limits on baud rate / clock in the various decodes?
i.e: According to datasheet UART in the siglent can go up to 330.4 kbps (slow-ish)

Also, could somebody that has both of them take a picture of them side by side, maybe with a signal on it? (dave, could you? in theory the 1202X-E is in the same form factor?)
On 1102G, UART Baudrate will do arbitary rates up to 8M, and also 10M
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on March 17, 2017, 12:27:38 pm
Still comparing the 1102G with the SDS1102X+
Still undecided on which one to get for home

Siglent have a new model SDS1000 about to be released if you aren't interested in the MSO or ARB option it should be a better buy.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on March 17, 2017, 12:49:33 pm
too bad i'm interested in both :)
MSO is actually the only real reason i'm having doubts, not sure if i want to get a separate LA or adding a printf in the software to decode an LCD with parallel interface (future hobby project)
and waveform screen size (four more horizontal divisions, longer data streams)

everything else is pointing towards keysight

Anyway by following hints on this and other topics, searching
Quote from: write exactly this in google
siglent "sds1102x-e"
Quote
will point at the chinese siglent website. hitting on translate gives a very readable chinglish translation and will get around location redirects
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on March 17, 2017, 04:55:24 pm
Still comparing the 1102G with the SDS1102X+
Still undecided on which one to get for home
Siglent have a new model SDS1000 about to be released if you aren't interested in the MSO or ARB option it should be a better buy.
I wouldn't be that optimistic. It is a new product from Siglent based on new hardware so it is likely riddled with bugs and features which are just there to mark an item on a checklist but provide no real value to the user (Eres for exmple). I'm also wondering if Siglent's new scope decodes the full memory instead of what is only on screen. All in all it needs a really thourough test before recommending it to anyone.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: rf-loop on March 17, 2017, 06:35:33 pm
I'm also wondering if Siglent's new scope decodes the full memory instead of what is only on screen.

How many years it take you understand that whole captured length is always between screen left and right border. It is now and it have been.  If capture length is example 1.4Mpoints (SDS1kX decode limit) this whole length is visible on the screen. There is NOTHING out of screen - whole acquisition length is visible and decoded. This nothing out of screen can not decode. Also your marketed GoodWill do not decode anything what is not captured. If your goodwill have record length 1.4M and Siglent same length. Both decode same length. Difficult?

But I do not try tell Siglent decode is good or perfect. All need do better. Every single thing can  do better and need do better before I say exellent. But this is other thing.

But, you are trumpling this your sentence endless just as infinite loop recorder.
Deliberately trying to create a false impression. Although the argument is literally not lie.
And I will correct it every single time if I see it and have time.

My aunt had a parrot. It was learned playing bad sentence. Teaching out of this habit was difficult. Feels just same. But this is yours marketing habit.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on March 17, 2017, 06:47:05 pm
I'm also wondering if Siglent's new scope decodes the full memory instead of what is only on screen.
How many years it take you understand that whole captured length is always between screen left and right border. It is now and it have been.
Sorry but it is you who doesn't want to understand but that is understandable because you want the products you sell look good and not see the lesser aspects of them. Maybe you should try to use an oscilloscope for solving a though I2C or SPI problem and you'll finally see why decoding what is on screen is so bad. Also: can you save the event table to a text (CSV) file in a Siglent scope? On a Keysight you can and it is a very handy feature for diving deeper into the data.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: kcbrown on March 18, 2017, 10:03:54 pm
How many years it take you understand that whole captured length is always between screen left and right border. It is now and it have been.
Sorry but it is you who doesn't want to understand but that is understandable because you want the products you sell look good and not see the lesser aspects of them. Maybe you should try to use an oscilloscope for solving a though I2C or SPI problem and you'll finally see why decoding what is on screen is so bad.

When you do debugging with decoding, do you sometimes find it useful to see the decoding output displayed while the scope is running (i.e., still performing waveform captures)?   If so, then I suppose I could see a notable difference between the two approaches when debugging.  But if decoding is really only useful when the scope is stopped, then I hardly see how the two approaches differ in terms of the end result.  They'd obviously differ in terms of setup.

If decoding is something that would be visible while in zoom mode then even real-time debugging wouldn't really be affected (at least, I can't see how it would be).  You'd just have to use a slightly different means of seeing the same thing.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on March 18, 2017, 10:18:42 pm
Decoding while capturing isn't extremely usefull because the data changes so quick you can't really see what is what. For starters you'll have to trigger on a specific message  (I2C address, CAN ID, etc) to see what is going on. I usually find myself capturing a long trace and then look at the various timing aspects (time between messages, clock to data edges, extra pulses and stuff like that).
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: kcbrown on March 18, 2017, 11:00:23 pm
Decoding while capturing isn't extremely usefull because the data changes so quick you can't really see what is what. For starters you'll have to trigger on a specific message  (I2C address, CAN ID, etc) to see what is going on. I usually find myself capturing a long trace and then look at the various timing aspects (time between messages, clock to data edges, extra pulses and stuff like that).

That's sort of what I was thinking.  But if that's the case, then why does it matter what the real-time display is, as long as the size of your capture is sufficient to get everything of interest?   The Siglent doesn't interfere with that in the slightest: what you see is all you get, so you need only set the window to cover the capture range you want to get, and you can change the timebase and positioning all you want once you've stopped the capture.   You can thus see what you want to see.  The only difference is how you get there.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: kcbrown on March 18, 2017, 11:05:58 pm
Siglent have a new model SDS1000 about to be released if you aren't interested in the MSO or ARB option it should be a better buy.
I wouldn't be that optimistic. It is a new product from Siglent based on new hardware so it is likely riddled with bugs and features which are just there to mark an item on a checklist but provide no real value to the user (Eres for exmple).

Might want to wait until people get it in hand before condemning it that way.

Yeah, Siglent's history isn't all that great with respect to initial firmware releases, and I'm sure this new scope will have its share of bugs owing to the (presumed) change in architecture.  But it's quite premature to declare that it's "likely riddled with bugs" when it's almost certain that Siglent is going to be using their current SDS1000X firmware as the basis for the firmware in this scope.


Quote
I'm also wondering if Siglent's new scope decodes the full memory instead of what is only on screen. All in all it needs a really thourough test before recommending it to anyone.

It's usually a bad idea to recommend a scope before it's been thoroughly tested, regardless of the make, don't you think?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on March 18, 2017, 11:08:38 pm
I wouldn't be that optimistic. It is a new product from Siglent based on new hardware so it is likely riddled with bugs and features which are just there to mark an item on a checklist but provide no real value to the user (Eres for exmple). I'm also wondering if Siglent's new scope decodes the full memory instead of what is only on screen.

Yes it does, that's one of it's marketing highlights.

Quote
1M points FFT, enhanced resolution, serial bus decoding on 14 M points of raw data,
measurements and math on 14 M points of raw data, all of which raise the DSP ability of entry-
level scopes to a new level.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on March 18, 2017, 11:19:39 pm
It's usually a bad idea to recommend a scope before it's been thoroughly tested, regardless of the make, don't you think?
It depends greatly on the brand whether I take the specs at face value or with a large grain of salt. I'm not overly concerned about bugs because people make mistakes and there is a lot of pressure to put a product on the market. However what matters most is whether bugs get fixed within a couple of weeks (good) or years later (very bad). Ofcourse the promised functionality should be there from day one. Personally I feel better about extra functions getting added later than missing functions when I buy a piece of equipment.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: kcbrown on March 18, 2017, 11:43:49 pm
It's usually a bad idea to recommend a scope before it's been thoroughly tested, regardless of the make, don't you think?
It depends greatly on the brand whether I take the specs at face value or with a large grain of salt. I'm not overly concerned about bugs because people make mistakes and there is a lot of pressure to put a product on the market. However what matters most is whether bugs get fixed within a couple of weeks (good) or years later (very bad).

Yeah, that makes a big difference, for sure.  How quickly a manufacturer fixes bugs can be a moving target, however.  Take Instek for instance.  Apparently (see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/opinions-on-gw-instek-scopes/msg1131121/#msg1131121 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/opinions-on-gw-instek-scopes/msg1131121/#msg1131121)) they were slow to fix at least some bugs in the GDS-2104.  But your experience with the GDS-2204E was quite different, and much better.

Similarly, Siglent's bug fix rate was atrocious for the SDS-2000 (for which they were rightly much maligned), but has apparently been much better for the SDS-2000X and SDS-1000X scopes.

And even Rigol has improved their game with the DS-1054Z (though we still await the firmware they said they'd release by the end of January).


Quote
Ofcourse the promised functionality should be there from day one. Personally I feel better about extra functions getting added later than missing functions when I buy a piece of equipment.

Which scopes had certain functionality in the specs that wasn't actually present at all at launch?  It's one thing for the functionality to be buggy (which can easily be to the point of unusability, of course), but quite another for it to not be present in the first place.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 18, 2017, 11:56:05 pm
Decoding while capturing isn't extremely usefull because the data changes so quick you can't really see what is what. For starters you'll have to trigger on a specific message  (I2C address, CAN ID, etc) to see what is going on. I usually find myself capturing a long trace and then look at the various timing aspects (time between messages, clock to data edges, extra pulses and stuff like that).

That's sort of what I was thinking.  But if that's the case, then why does it matter what the real-time display is, as long as the size of your capture is sufficient to get everything of interest?   The Siglent doesn't interfere with that in the slightest: what you see is all you get, so you need only set the window to cover the capture range you want to get, and you can change the timebase and positioning all you want once you've stopped the capture.   You can thus see what you want to see.  The only difference is how you get there.
Real-time decoding can definitely be useful sometimes, more in the case where you're using is for debug outputs, but also things like seeing realtime data from I2C peripherals like accelerometers, and spotting glitches & issues that happen intermittently.
From many years of experience using (hardware) serial decode I'd say that any decode that noticeably slows down screen update is at least very annoying and detrimental to productivity.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Someone on March 19, 2017, 12:24:36 am
Decoding while capturing isn't extremely usefull because the data changes so quick you can't really see what is what. For starters you'll have to trigger on a specific message  (I2C address, CAN ID, etc) to see what is going on. I usually find myself capturing a long trace and then look at the various timing aspects (time between messages, clock to data edges, extra pulses and stuff like that).

That's sort of what I was thinking.  But if that's the case, then why does it matter what the real-time display is, as long as the size of your capture is sufficient to get everything of interest?   The Siglent doesn't interfere with that in the slightest: what you see is all you get, so you need only set the window to cover the capture range you want to get, and you can change the timebase and positioning all you want once you've stopped the capture.   You can thus see what you want to see.  The only difference is how you get there.
Real-time decoding can definitely be useful sometimes, more in the case where you're using is for debug outputs, but also things like seeing realtime data from I2C peripherals like accelerometers, and spotting glitches & issues that happen intermittently.
From many years of experience using (hardware) serial decode I'd say that any decode that noticeably slows down screen update is at least very annoying and detrimental to productivity.
Its different use cases, I like you spend more time with larger realtime systems and want to catch those odd cases. Setting serial triggers on specific data patterns which shouldn't exist but appear to be triggering something on the slaves (or errors) quickly confirms behaviour without having to capture huge sequences of data and hunt through them.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 19, 2017, 12:34:18 am
Decoding while capturing isn't extremely usefull because the data changes so quick you can't really see what is what. For starters you'll have to trigger on a specific message  (I2C address, CAN ID, etc) to see what is going on. I usually find myself capturing a long trace and then look at the various timing aspects (time between messages, clock to data edges, extra pulses and stuff like that).

That's sort of what I was thinking.  But if that's the case, then why does it matter what the real-time display is, as long as the size of your capture is sufficient to get everything of interest?   The Siglent doesn't interfere with that in the slightest: what you see is all you get, so you need only set the window to cover the capture range you want to get, and you can change the timebase and positioning all you want once you've stopped the capture.   You can thus see what you want to see.  The only difference is how you get there.
Real-time decoding can definitely be useful sometimes, more in the case where you're using is for debug outputs, but also things like seeing realtime data from I2C peripherals like accelerometers, and spotting glitches & issues that happen intermittently.
From many years of experience using (hardware) serial decode I'd say that any decode that noticeably slows down screen update is at least very annoying and detrimental to productivity.
Its different use cases, I like you spend more time with larger realtime systems and want to catch those odd cases. Setting serial triggers on specific data patterns which shouldn't exist but appear to be triggering something on the slaves (or errors) quickly confirms behaviour without having to capture huge sequences of data and hunt through them.
It may not be  practical to set up a trigger when you don't know exactly what's happenning. If you have fast realtime update, then you can often spot errors in real time as they happen rather than having to wade through a long capture.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on March 19, 2017, 12:43:11 am
 :-DD  :-DD

The last dozen or more posts have been with Siglent as the topic of discussion in a KS thread.  ;D

Some might say: get a room......maybe this one ?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on March 19, 2017, 12:45:17 am
Decoding while capturing isn't extremely usefull because the data changes so quick you can't really see what is what. For starters you'll have to trigger on a specific message  (I2C address, CAN ID, etc) to see what is going on. I usually find myself capturing a long trace and then look at the various timing aspects (time between messages, clock to data edges, extra pulses and stuff like that).

That's sort of what I was thinking.  But if that's the case, then why does it matter what the real-time display is, as long as the size of your capture is sufficient to get everything of interest?   The Siglent doesn't interfere with that in the slightest: what you see is all you get, so you need only set the window to cover the capture range you want to get, and you can change the timebase and positioning all you want once you've stopped the capture.   You can thus see what you want to see.  The only difference is how you get there.
Real-time decoding can definitely be useful sometimes, more in the case where you're using is for debug outputs, but also things like seeing realtime data from I2C peripherals like accelerometers, and spotting glitches & issues that happen intermittently.
From many years of experience using (hardware) serial decode I'd say that any decode that noticeably slows down screen update is at least very annoying and detrimental to productivity.
Its different use cases, I like you spend more time with larger realtime systems and want to catch those odd cases. Setting serial triggers on specific data patterns which shouldn't exist but appear to be triggering something on the slaves (or errors) quickly confirms behaviour without having to capture huge sequences of data and hunt through them.
It may not be  practical to set up a trigger when you don't know exactly what's happenning. If you have fast realtime update, then you can often spot errors in real time as they happen rather than having to wade through a long capture.
I guess it greatly depends on how you work and how you check what is on a bus. I use decoding primarily for checking timing (data integrity) and hunting rare events. Once the timing is OK I'm not looking at decoding to see the data. I do that at a higher level because that usually involves firmware which can check the messages and print an ERROR in case a message is bad.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: kcbrown on March 19, 2017, 12:56:27 am
:-DD  :-DD

The last dozen or more posts have been with Siglent as the topic of discussion in a KS thread.  ;D

Some might say: get a room......maybe this one ?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/)

Well, Dave did raise the subject of the Siglent in this thread ... :D

I don't like to post replies in a thread that differs from that which the message I'm responding to lives in, because doing so means that the participants of the original thread might well not see the followup discussion at all, whether or not they're actually interested in it.   It breaks the flow of the conversation, too.   And finally, the context in the thread one is putting the reply into just isn't the same.   So, lots of downsides without a whole lot of upsides.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: bitwelder on March 19, 2017, 06:59:49 am
:-DD  :-DD

The last dozen or more posts have been with Siglent as the topic of discussion in a KS thread.  ;D
Rename the thread March Scopemonth?  :P
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on March 19, 2017, 08:11:48 am
:-DD  :-DD

The last dozen or more posts have been with Siglent as the topic of discussion in a KS thread.  ;D
Rename the thread March Scopemonth?  :P
Certainly seems that way, interesting times.  :)

Butting out now, we've got some new stuff coming soon too.  :-DMM
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mrpackethead on March 19, 2017, 08:14:01 am
:-DD  :-DD

The last dozen or more posts have been with Siglent as the topic of discussion in a KS thread.  ;D
Rename the thread March Scopemonth?  :P
Certainly seems that way, interesting times.  :)

Butting out now, we've got some new stuff coming soon too.  :-DMM

Makes me dislike siglent even more.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ws2812b on March 19, 2017, 12:07:23 pm
Pretty loud too. My application is in a quiet, audio-based environment where I need to hear subtle changes in musical pitch.

The old DSO that I use the most has a custom fan which is both large and looks like something to drive a wind tunnel but is practically silent.  A couple of my most used analog oscilloscopes are completely silent which can be a problem as well; I have left both on at one time or another without noticing for a week.

I do not know why so many test instruments now have such loud fans.  Maybe thermal engineering is considered too simple to be given enough consideration.

I'm also searching a pretty quiet scope. Can you give an idea how loud "pretty loud" is? Is there a spec? The only scope where I found a spec in the data sheet (and is in my price and feature range ;-)), seems to be the RTB2000? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/) There it says: "Audible noise | maximum sound pressure level at a distance of 1.0 m | 28.3 dB(A)"
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 19, 2017, 12:21:50 pm
I'm starting to lose track of what the different models can and can't do, how are the EDUX and DSOX different? Apart from the obvious - bandwidth and sample rate.

If we compare the EDUX1002G and DSOX1102G ...

Can the Ext Trig output also work as a digital input on the EDUX? So +/-1.6 or +/-8v? (mike says: "EDUX only has a single range for the EXT input, hence no relay")

The EDUX also has an option to enable Serial Triggering and Analysis (I²C, SPI, UART/RS-232), just not CAN and LIN?

Any other differences?

And is it correct that all models (A and G) has the training signals included? And these are generated by a hardware signal generator, it just doesn't have the frontend to the Gen Out?

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 19, 2017, 12:46:12 pm
There is a feature comparison table in the datasheet listing all the differences.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 19, 2017, 01:01:07 pm
Alright, got that cleared up.

As it doesn't have SPI decoding, what about the Ext Trig as input?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 19, 2017, 02:10:41 pm
Alright, got that cleared up.

As it doesn't have SPI decoding, what about the Ext Trig as input?
Pretty sure it has this,just only one voltage range
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: snoopy on March 20, 2017, 05:32:21 am
I was wondering how long before SC came out with a review of this scope. Didn't take long because there's a review of the DSOX1102G in April Edition of Silicon Chip Magazine ;) Interesting enough it talks about a 2Gs/s sampling rate for 4 channel models. Freudian slip ?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 25, 2017, 04:51:42 pm
How many probe attenuation options does the scope give you? (Same for EDUX and DSOX I assume?) Does it have 0.2X and 0.5X for example?

If only Keysight would include the EDUX1EMBD I would throw my money at the 1002G.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 25, 2017, 05:18:02 pm
How many probe attenuation options does the scope give you? (Same for EDUX and DSOX I assume?) Does it have 0.2X and 0.5X for example?

0.1 to 10000 in 1-2-5 steps. also -20 to +80dB in 0.1dB steps. Also volts & amps
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: synthRodriguez on March 28, 2017, 05:17:17 pm
Pretty loud too. My application is in a quiet, audio-based environment where I need to hear subtle changes in musical pitch.

The old DSO that I use the most has a custom fan which is both large and looks like something to drive a wind tunnel but is practically silent.  A couple of my most used analog oscilloscopes are completely silent which can be a problem as well; I have left both on at one time or another without noticing for a week.

I do not know why so many test instruments now have such loud fans.  Maybe thermal engineering is considered too simple to be given enough consideration.

I'm also searching a pretty quiet scope. Can you give an idea how loud "pretty loud" is? Is there a spec? The only scope where I found a spec in the data sheet (and is in my price and feature range ;-)), seems to be the RTB2000? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-killer-scope-a-true-game-changer-from-rs-rtb2002-rtb2004/) There it says: "Audible noise | maximum sound pressure level at a distance of 1.0 m | 28.3 dB(A)"

Using my beat-up Radio Shack sound level meter I found in a parking lot along with my calibrated Stanley tape measure, I'm getting 56 dB at one meter, A-weighted when pointing it at the back of the unit.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 28, 2017, 05:20:09 pm
Contacted my local Keysight distributor, 7 week delivery time on the EDUX1002G .. And no promos or package price for the decode option. Guess I'll wait a few weeks, keep an eye on the competition.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 28, 2017, 05:27:09 pm
Contacted my local Keysight distributor, 7 week delivery time on the EDUX1002G .. And no promos or package price for the decode option. Guess I'll wait a few weeks, keep an eye on the competition.
Farnell are showing 34 in stock.
Also don't forget the Scope Month giveaweays!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 28, 2017, 05:45:26 pm
Contacted my local Keysight distributor, 7 week delivery time on the EDUX1002G .. And no promos or package price for the decode option. Guess I'll wait a few weeks, keep an eye on the competition.
Farnell are showing 34 in stock.
Also don't forget the Scope Month giveaweays!

I wish it was that easy. Farnell is also the cheapest option, but Farnell Norway do not sell to individuals  |O. The only other option I know of locally is Elfa Distrelec (https://www.elfadistrelec.no/en/oscilloscope-2x50-mhz-gs-keysight-edux1002g/p/30081608 (https://www.elfadistrelec.no/en/oscilloscope-2x50-mhz-gs-keysight-edux1002g/p/30081608)) but they refuse to ship to me, as I only have a PO Box (living on a university campus)  :-//.

My country is not eligible for the scopemonth, and no luck with Dave's giveaway (or ElectroBOOM's!). I guess I'll have to order it from abroad.. The fees associated with that stings though.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on March 28, 2017, 05:50:07 pm
Why do you even want the EDUX1002G? It is positioned to outfit a classroom at low cost. For personal use you can get so much better bang for your buck that it is borderline insane to buy it.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 28, 2017, 05:54:49 pm
Why do you even want the EDUX1002G? It is positioned to outfit a classroom at low cost. For personal use you can get so much better bang for your buck that it is borderline insane to buy it.

My room is a classroom  ;D
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on March 29, 2017, 06:32:49 pm
Contacted my local Keysight distributor, 7 week delivery time on the EDUX1002G .. And no promos or package price for the decode option. Guess I'll wait a few weeks, keep an eye on the competition.
Farnell are showing 34 in stock.
Also don't forget the Scope Month giveaweays!

I wish it was that easy. Farnell is also the cheapest option, but Farnell Norway do not sell to individuals  |O. The only other option I know of locally is Elfa Distrelec (https://www.elfadistrelec.no/en/oscilloscope-2x50-mhz-gs-keysight-edux1002g/p/30081608 (https://www.elfadistrelec.no/en/oscilloscope-2x50-mhz-gs-keysight-edux1002g/p/30081608)) but they refuse to ship to me, as I only have a PO Box (living on a university campus)  :-//.

My country is not eligible for the scopemonth, and no luck with Dave's giveaway (or ElectroBOOM's!). I guess I'll have to order it from abroad.. The fees associated with that stings though.

You can go to http://www.keysight.com/find/distributor (http://www.keysight.com/find/distributor) and get a full list of distributors for your country. I see 7 options for Finland.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 29, 2017, 06:37:10 pm
Contacted my local Keysight distributor, 7 week delivery time on the EDUX1002G .. And no promos or package price for the decode option. Guess I'll wait a few weeks, keep an eye on the competition.
Farnell are showing 34 in stock.
Also don't forget the Scope Month giveaweays!

I wish it was that easy. Farnell is also the cheapest option, but Farnell Norway do not sell to individuals  |O. The only other option I know of locally is Elfa Distrelec (https://www.elfadistrelec.no/en/oscilloscope-2x50-mhz-gs-keysight-edux1002g/p/30081608 (https://www.elfadistrelec.no/en/oscilloscope-2x50-mhz-gs-keysight-edux1002g/p/30081608)) but they refuse to ship to me, as I only have a PO Box (living on a university campus)  :-//.

My country is not eligible for the scopemonth, and no luck with Dave's giveaway (or ElectroBOOM's!). I guess I'll have to order it from abroad.. The fees associated with that stings though.

You can go to http://www.keysight.com/find/distributor (http://www.keysight.com/find/distributor) and get a full list of distributors for your country. I see 7 options for Finland.
Speaking of Finland,  I'm surprised Daniel hasn't sent one to the Hydraulic Press channel....
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: GlowingGhoul on March 29, 2017, 08:58:48 pm
Contacted my local Keysight distributor, 7 week delivery time on the EDUX1002G .. And no promos or package price for the decode option. Guess I'll wait a few weeks, keep an eye on the competition.
Farnell are showing 34 in stock.
Also don't forget the Scope Month giveaweays!

I wish it was that easy. Farnell is also the cheapest option, but Farnell Norway do not sell to individuals  |O. The only other option I know of locally is Elfa Distrelec (https://www.elfadistrelec.no/en/oscilloscope-2x50-mhz-gs-keysight-edux1002g/p/30081608 (https://www.elfadistrelec.no/en/oscilloscope-2x50-mhz-gs-keysight-edux1002g/p/30081608)) but they refuse to ship to me, as I only have a PO Box (living on a university campus)  :-//.

My country is not eligible for the scopemonth, and no luck with Dave's giveaway (or ElectroBOOM's!). I guess I'll have to order it from abroad.. The fees associated with that stings though.

You can go to http://www.keysight.com/find/distributor (http://www.keysight.com/find/distributor) and get a full list of distributors for your country. I see 7 options for Finland.
Speaking of Finland,  I'm surprised Daniel hasn't sent one to the Hydraulic Press channel....

Something tells me Keysight will have plenty of DMMs available for the hydraulic press very soon.....
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: bitwelder on March 30, 2017, 05:00:31 pm
You can go to http://www.keysight.com/find/distributor (http://www.keysight.com/find/distributor) and get a full list of distributors for your country. I see 7 options for Finland.
Errr.... for Norway (which should be TheAmmoniacal country) the FULL list is... 3 distributors, and one of the them is the above-mentioned Farnell.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on March 30, 2017, 05:10:22 pm
You can go to http://www.keysight.com/find/distributor (http://www.keysight.com/find/distributor) and get a full list of distributors for your country. I see 7 options for Finland.
Errr.... for Norway (which should be TheAmmoniacal country) the FULL list is... 3 distributors, and one of the them is the above-mentioned Farnell.

You're right. Lots of countries to keep track of!

Acal BFi and Farnell don't sell to individuals, and 4Test didn't get scopes during the first shipments - so a 7 week delivery time (for the next batches to arrive). I found it on RS Components though, but $120 more than other places :(

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 30, 2017, 05:12:22 pm
I found it on RS Components though, but $120 more than other places :(
May be worth contacting them to see if they will price-match
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: znroot on March 31, 2017, 07:34:58 pm
I've got my DSOX1102G today...
The first impression is it's a huge and quality upgrade over SDS1000X and DS2072A.
Now let's see how it work in a production lab  :box:
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on April 08, 2017, 06:14:40 pm
Are there any soft carrying cases and front panel covers compatible with the new InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 08, 2017, 06:28:44 pm
Are there any soft carrying cases and front panel covers compatible with the new InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series?
Yes but rather expensive - probably better to go to your local luggage shop & look for something the right size

http://uk.farnell.com/keysight-technologies/n2738a/carry-case-soft-1000-series/dp/2214959 (http://uk.farnell.com/keysight-technologies/n2738a/carry-case-soft-1000-series/dp/2214959)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on April 26, 2017, 07:04:06 pm
It's a pity that Keysight did not include a 16 channel logic analyzer in this scope.
This would have made it a modern version of the HP54645D.

Really a missed opportunity IMO as everybody needs a logic analyzer these days.
Looks like we have to complement it with an Analog Discovery :)

HP engineers knew this already back in 1997. Where did they loose it?
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97.htm (http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97.htm)

This confirms again that newer is not always better!

Back then HP engineers were proud on the products they built. And they documented all their technological achievements in their own HP Journal. The engineers got names, and they got personal recognition within the company.

Keysight engineers should read back the old HP Journals! But they probably don't even know about their existence.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on April 26, 2017, 07:19:11 pm
Back then HP engineers were proud on the products they built. And they documented all their technological achievements in their own HP Journal. The engineers got names, and they got personal recognition within the company.

Keysight engineers should read back the old HP Journals! But they probably don't even know about their existence.

The majority of the engineers that worked on the 1000 X-Series have been around since HP days, and we're very proud of our scope!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on April 26, 2017, 08:31:01 pm
Did you really read the first and second paragraph from the provided HP Journal link?

Back in 1997 already (which is 20 years ago for the record), HP engineers wrote that a scope without a logic analyzer isn't doing the job anymore for testing electronic systems designed in the nineties.

We are now 20 years later, so how could a scope without a logic analyzer do the job now in 2017 for testing electronic systems that have further evolved over a period of 20 years?

HP engineers knew this already back in 1997. Where did they loose it?
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97.htm (http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97.htm)

Please check the first and second paragraph of the link above.

The 1000 X-Series should have been a modern version of the HP54645D.

(https://www.custom-cal.com/images/instruments/110/54645D.jpg)

HP product released in 1997 (20 years ago):

The Keysight 54645D 100-MHz 200-MSa/s Mixed Signal Oscilloscope seamlessly integrates logic channels into an oscilloscope to offer new measurement capability for designers of combined analog and digital systems. Analog and digital on one display, aligned in time, to help you isolate cause and effect in complex circuits.

New measurement capability in 1997. Which now is not there anymore in 2017? Really?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on April 26, 2017, 08:47:51 pm
Did you really read the first and second paragraph from the provided HP Journal link?

Back in 1997 already (which is 20 years ago for the record), HP engineers wrote that a scope without a logic analyzer isn't doing the job anymore for testing electronic systems designed in the nineties.
Logic analyzer this is add ons to scope. This is not scope task, this is not measurement. This is just analyzing. DSOX1000 series can analyze serial bus, moreover ;) Keysight have HW decoding serial buses, Need more? Just need to be ready pay for more lines decoding.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on April 26, 2017, 08:49:00 pm
I did end up ordering the HMO1002 over the DSOX1102A for that reason, as it was the same price on their webshop. Turns out it wasn't the same price after all.. they cancelled my order and wanted to add $200 on top.. and their logic probe is $450 .. nope...  :palm:

I think the DSOX will do instead, logic analyzer is best on the PC anyway.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on April 26, 2017, 09:17:25 pm
It's a pity that Keysight did not include a 16 channel logic analyzer in this scope.
This would have made it a modern version of the HP54645D.

Really a missed opportunity IMO as everybody needs a logic analyzer these days.
Looks like we have to complement it with an Analog Discovery :)

HP engineers knew this already back in 1997. Where did they loose it?
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97.htm (http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97.htm)

This confirms again that newer is not always better!

Back then HP engineers were proud on the products they built. And they documented all their technological achievements in their own HP Journal. The engineers got names, and they got personal recognition within the company.

Keysight engineers should read back the old HP Journals! But they probably don't even know about their existence.

Huh? Didn't you post that same comment a month ago?
Can't find it in the forum archives, though...

What's going on - I feel trapped in a time warp?!  ???
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 26, 2017, 09:24:11 pm
The 1000 X-Series should have been a modern version of the HP54645D.
From memory when I bought my 54645D when it was fairly recently released, I think it was about three and a half grand.
The 2000X series is more comparable.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on April 26, 2017, 09:45:44 pm
Let's compare all the 100 MHz entry level scopes from HP/Agilent/Keysight over the years:

1997: HP54645D: 100 MHz, 2+16 channels
2011: MSOX2012A: 100 MHz, 2+8 channels
2017: DSOX1102G: 100 MHz, 2+0 channels

Evolutionary approach? From 16 to 0 digital channels!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 26, 2017, 09:52:18 pm
Evolutionary approach? From 16 to 0 digital channels!

1997: HP54645D: 100 MHz, 2+16 channels
2011: MSOX2012A: 100 MHz, 2+8 channels
2017: DSOX1102G: 100 MHz, 2+0 channels
MSOX3012 100MHz, 16+2 channels. Same price as 54645D when it was released.

There were also cheaper non-MSO models when the 54645D came out. Just as there are now.


 
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on April 26, 2017, 09:57:40 pm
So you now have to pay the same price as 20 years ago to get a 100 MHz scope with 2+16 channels? Really?

20 years ago a 2x CD burner costed 1000 USD.
These days a 20x DVD burner costs 50 USD.
20 times cheaper and 10x better specs on the writing speed.

Sampling rate for scope has obviously increased over the years.
But price should have reduced as well, as in the CD/DVD burner example above.

But we shouldn't focus on the price alone.

The whole point is that a brand new 2017 scope without a built-in LA doesn't make sense, given that HP already indicated so explicitly in 1997.

Back in 1997 already (which is 20 years ago for the record), HP engineers wrote that a scope without a logic analyzer isn't doing the job anymore for testing electronic systems designed in the nineties.

We are now 20 years later, so how could a scope without a logic analyzer do the job now in 2017 for testing electronic systems that have further evolved over a period of 20 years?

HP engineers knew this already back in 1997. Where did they loose it?
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97.htm (http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97.htm)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on April 26, 2017, 10:06:07 pm
I use not so long DSOX1000 series, and i can like it, but I noticed some inconvenience/minuses from my point of view.
- It's not possible change time format to 24h, so meter always show 12h time format on display, but on screenshots it always 24h :o Need to be add possibility to setup time format by user and keep it same for screen and memory prints
- Probes seems to be well done with gold plated tips, but hook tips included with probes and ground lead  - really piece of shit. Hook tips scratched probe tips plating when you joint/disjoint it on the probe or try to turn hook tip attached on the probe. After some time you'll have have deep scratches on the probe tips.  :-- contact inside the hook lead very coarse, seems to be able scratch any plating, nickel and etc..  Ground leads seems to be same bad quality..
- Even been perfectly compensated, after some time probes not give me same fine picture after some time of using scope (probably 1-2 hour) and after checking probe compensation again it seems just slightly  under compensated. I tried to do fine compensation for both probes after 20 min warm up my scope and repeat check it again after one hour of using scope, I seen just slight under compensation for my probes. Probably input chain is slightly unstable, I don't know exactly  :-//
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: David Hess on April 26, 2017, 10:20:09 pm
- Even been perfectly compensated, after some time probes not give me same fine picture after some time of using scope (probably 1-2 hour) and after checking probe compensation again it seems just slightly  under compensated. I tried to do fine compensation for both probes after 20 min warm up my scope and repeat check it again after one hour of using scope, I seen just slight under compensation for my probes. Probably input chain is slightly unstable, I don't know exactly  :-//

The input capacitance of the oscilloscope is probably changing as it warms up which is a bad sign.  Is the compensation consistent as the high impedance input attenuators are switched in and out?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TK on April 26, 2017, 10:37:10 pm
The basic serial decodes available currently for the 1000X series (UART, i2c and SPI) should be free... current price is probably unattractive for distributors to promote it and if bundled for free with the scope, could generate a lot of new sales
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on April 26, 2017, 11:14:48 pm
@pascal_sweden - I won't get into the details of product planning, etc., but essential what Mike is saying is right. The HP was our lower end scope at the time, but the 1000 X-Series is really a different class of instrument - it's not a fair compare. Also, what people are doing with scopes and logic analyzers has changed dramatically in 20 years. The logic market used to be hundreds and hundreds of millions of $, and now it's not. Including digital channels would increase the cost and price of the scope - something our planners weren't willing to do.

@serggio, thanks for the feedback! I'll pass it along to the team. We do extensive reliability and stress testing on the probes, so I doubt scratching will cause measurement problems in the long run. For the compensation, I'd definitely make sure the scope fully warms up and stays in a temperature stable environment. I'll leave one connected overnight here and see what happens.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TK on April 26, 2017, 11:35:21 pm
Let's compare all the 100 MHz entry level scopes from HP/Agilent/Keysight over the years:

1997: HP54645D: 100 MHz, 2+16 channels
2011: MSOX2012A: 100 MHz, 2+8 channels
2017: DSOX1102G: 100 MHz, 2+0 channels

Evolutionary approach? From 16 to 0 digital channels!
The DSOX1102G has 2+1 channels, so technically it is still an MSO
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on April 27, 2017, 01:10:43 am
HP engineers knew this already back in 1997. Where did they loose it?
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97.htm (http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97.htm)

They probably lost it when they had to read the same comment three times in a row, on the same day, from the same guy...  :P
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: snoopy on April 27, 2017, 01:24:52 am
Did you really read the first and second paragraph from the provided HP Journal link?

Back in 1997 already (which is 20 years ago for the record), HP engineers wrote that a scope without a logic analyzer isn't doing the job anymore for testing electronic systems designed in the nineties.

We are now 20 years later, so how could a scope without a logic analyzer do the job now in 2017 for testing electronic systems that have further evolved over a period of 20 years?

HP engineers knew this already back in 1997. Where did they loose it?
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97.htm (http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97.htm)

Please check the first and second paragraph of the link above.

The 1000 X-Series should have been a modern version of the HP54645D.

(https://www.custom-cal.com/images/instruments/110/54645D.jpg)

HP product released in 1997 (20 years ago):

The Keysight 54645D 100-MHz 200-MSa/s Mixed Signal Oscilloscope seamlessly integrates logic channels into an oscilloscope to offer new measurement capability for designers of combined analog and digital systems. Analog and digital on one display, aligned in time, to help you isolate cause and effect in complex circuits.

New measurement capability in 1997. Which now is not there anymore in 2017? Really?

That was in the days where everything was designed around parallel buses. Things have changed and most buses have been consolidated into a serial bus of some sort which is why the wide bus logic analyser is superfluous in most cases and being replaced by protocol analysis in the scope itself.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on April 27, 2017, 08:11:18 am
Dear Keysight Product Management. Can you please comment on the below?
Thanks,
Pascal

So you now have to pay the same price as 20 years ago to get a 100 MHz scope with 2+16 channels? Really?

20 years ago a 2x CD burner costed 1000 USD.
These days a 20x DVD burner costs 50 USD.
20 times cheaper and 10x better specs on the writing speed.

Sampling rate for scope has obviously increased over the years.
But price should have reduced as well, as in the CD/DVD burner example above.

MSOX3012 100MHz, 16+2 channels. Same price as 54645D when it was released.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 27, 2017, 08:15:52 am
That was in the days where everything was designed around parallel buses. Things have changed and most buses have been consolidated into a serial bus of some sort which is why the wide bus logic analyser is superfluous in most cases and being replaced by protocol analysis in the scope itself.
Exactly - I can't recall the last time I used more than 8 digital channels.

Of course this is exactly why scopes should include serial decode for SPI, I2C and UART as standard.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 27, 2017, 08:18:08 am
Dear Keysight Product Management. Can you please comment on the below?
Thanks,
Pascal

So you now have to pay the same price as 20 years ago to get a 100 MHz scope with 2+16 channels? Really?

20 years ago a 2x CD burner costed 1000 USD.
These days a 20x DVD burner costs 50 USD.
20 times cheaper and 10x better specs on the writing speed.

Sampling rate for scope has obviously increased over the years.
But price should have reduced as well, as in the CD/DVD burner example above.

MSOX3012 100MHz, 16+2 channels. Same price as 54645D when it was released.
Comparison to consumer electronics is ridiculous - the volumes are orders of magnitude higher.
Nobody's forcing you to buy Keysight - if you want the most function for the lowest cost, go buy a cheap Chinese scope.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on April 27, 2017, 08:25:18 am
My example related to consumer electronics was extreme, to get everybody's attention.

I am not saying that the MSOX3012 should be 20 times cheaper than the HP54645D,
but it should not have exactly the same price tag either.

At least the price should have halved over the past 20 years, and the increased sampling rate just comes as an extra by the technological evolution of the current state of the industry.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: kcbrown on April 27, 2017, 08:50:51 am
My example related to consumer electronics was extreme, to get everybody's attention.

I am not saying that the MSOX3012 should be 20 times cheaper than the HP54645D,
but it should not have exactly the same price tag either.

At least the price should have halved over the past 20 years, and the increased sampling rate just comes as an extra by the technological evolution of the current state of the industry.

It has halved over the past 20 years.   Do you really think you're making the same net amount as someone in a similar position was 20 years ago?  No.  You're almost certainly making quite a lot more.   Twice as much, actually, if you're in the U.S.

What matters isn't the numerical price.  What matters is how much time you have to spend working in order to make that amount.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on April 27, 2017, 09:08:57 am
Prices should have gone down over the past 20 years. Salaries are irrelevant in this discussion.

If the Chinese manufacturers can do it, why not the American manufacturers? Everything is produced in China anyhow.

In fact Chinese scopes are not subject to the basic flaws that were discovered recently on this American scope. And no, this is not a software problem. This is a plain hardware problem. Way to go Keysight!

- Even been perfectly compensated, after some time probes not give me same fine picture after some time of using scope (probably 1-2 hour) and after checking probe compensation again it seems just slightly  under compensated. I tried to do fine compensation for both probes after 20 min warm up my scope and repeat check it again after one hour of using scope, I seen just slight under compensation for my probes. Probably input chain is slightly unstable, I don't know exactly  :-//

Chinese scopes do have some software issues, but at least these can all be fixed in software.

And although the probes can be a bit flimsy, at least they don't scratch over time. Way to go Keysight!

- Probes seems to be well done with gold plated tips, but hook tips included with probes and ground lead  - really piece of shit. Hook tips scratched probe tips plating when you joint/disjoint it on the probe or try to turn hook tip attached on the probe. After some time you'll have have deep scratches on the probe tips.  :-- contact inside the hook lead very coarse, seems to be able scratch any plating, nickel and etc..  Ground leads seems to be same bad quality..

It seems that this American company has become the "Lenovo" of oscilloscopes,
while Chinese companies have become the "Toyota" of oscilloscopes.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fred27 on April 27, 2017, 09:42:51 am
There's no point arguing about what price something should be for the features it has. The only thing that determines that is market forces.

Imagine a company made the crappiest scope ever, it cost $1 to build, and a reasonable number of people were willing to pay $5000 for it. Guess what the price would be...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on April 27, 2017, 09:53:02 am
The input capacitance of the oscilloscope is probably changing as it warms up which is a bad sign.  Is the compensation consistent as the high impedance input attenuators are switched in and out?
Do you mean, is some changing in the signal for 10x after switching from 10x to 1x and back 10x? No, signal remains same. Both probes have same behaviour on both channels.
I assume that LF compensation is nothing more than matching output probe capacitance to the oscilloscope input probe capacitance. It should be equal and adjusting only by variable capacitor placed near BNC connector at the probe.  Only passive components involved in this chain.
I give my scope warm up 20 min and more and after that checking compensation matching. I use also use hi-res and averaging acquisition modes for make fine adjustment.
If I switch off scope, in give him rest and start using again, probably next day, after checking compensation signal form not seems so fine adjusted. It always seems just slightly undercompensated.
May be I want fine precision, may be I just cavilling at the scope, probably it's ok for scope, I do not know. :-//
Would bee good to check it with external signal generator, but I currently do not have it.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: kcbrown on April 27, 2017, 10:11:53 am
Prices should have gone down over the past 20 years. Salaries are irrelevant in this discussion.

Is that so?

You're making an economic argument here.  Salaries are directly relevant to that.   And clearly you haven't thought the economics all the way through.

Trace every single transaction all the way back to its endpoint sources.  Guess what all of those sources involve?  The answer is simple: the source of every component of every economic transaction is a payment for someone's time.   Even when you're paying for raw materials, what you're actually paying for is someone's time to retrieve those raw materials from their source, transport them from that location, and package them up in some usable form.

And guess what a person's time is exchanged for?   A salary or wage.

Salaries and wages are directly involved in the real cost of goods and services.  They have to be, because they are how people are compensated for their time, and time is ultimately what you're paying for when you pay for a good or service.


Quote
If the Chinese manufacturers can do it, why not the American manufacturers? Everything is produced in China anyhow.

But not everything is designed and developed in China.  The firmware for Keysight scopes, for instance, is almost certainly written by people in the United States.


Quote
In fact Chinese scopes are not subject to the basic flaws that were discovered recently on this American scope. And no, this is not a software problem. This is a plain hardware problem. Way to go Keysight!

Is that so?   Then pray tell, where's the logic analyzer on the Siglent SDS-1202X-E?  Where's the logic analyzer on the Instek GDS-1000G series?

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on April 27, 2017, 10:25:01 am
If the Chinese manufacturers can do it, why not the American manufacturers? Everything is produced in China anyhow.
Because unlike Chinese manufacturers they value quality and support over lowest possible proce
Quote
Chinese scopes do have some software issues, but at least these can all be fixed in software.
Except chances are they won't be
 
Title: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on April 27, 2017, 10:43:56 am
Pascal_sweden, I'm really can't understand what do you try to say us about Keysight and price.
If you want to be part of army free beta testers for Chinese manufacturers, you can easy join it for small amount of fees. Other people choice companies with good support, well done documentation, key studies, application notes, trainings materials and videos available from this companies. 
At least Keysight pay salary to Daniel, who haunt here and give us response for our questions. Where somebody from Rigol, Hantek and etc..

Where I need to go with Rigol for performing calibration for my device? I know where I can do it for Fluke, Keysight, Tek...
That all cost money, that is because not able to do price comparison for Chinese brands and Americans brands.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: rsjsouza on April 27, 2017, 11:48:24 am
Ok, I'll bite.

I am not saying that the MSOX3012 should be 20 times cheaper than the HP54645D,
but it should not have exactly the same price tag either.
Wrong. The 1997 US$3.5k is valued today at US$5.3k due to inflation, which buys you today a MSOX3014 - twice the channels.

If the Chinese manufacturers can do it, why not the American manufacturers? Everything is produced in China anyhow.
The cost of tangible items comes down with technology, but the intangible part of the oscilloscope (firmware) grew in importance over the decades but not its cost. That is one element that keeps the prices from going down significantly.

In fact Chinese scopes are not subject to the basic flaws that were discovered recently on this American scope. And no, this is not a software problem. This is a plain hardware problem. Way to go Keysight!

Chinese scopes do have some software issues, but at least these can all be fixed in software.

And although the probes can be a bit flimsy, at least they don't scratch over time. Way to go Keysight!
I would take scracthy probes all day long when compared to the DP832A overheat, Project Yaigol or the other user that had the ADC issues on his DS4000 due to the absence of a heatsink. My DS4000 came with NO heatsinks, and was purchased straight from them!

No brand is free from issues, as the time to release a product reduces the amount of testability by a significant margin - like it or not, that is today's world for you where we are all beta testers up to a certain degree. The important aspect here is how you recover when put in emergency mode - something I can clearly guarantee you that established brands perform better and more consistently.

Other people choice companies with good support, well done documentation, key studies, application notes, trainings materials and videos available from this companies.  At least Keysight pay salary to Daniel, who haunt here and give us response for our questions. Where somebody from Rigol, Hantek and etc..
When I worked closely with customers back in Brazil that was my neverending battle: some of them wanted the world in terms of information and support but always wanted to lowball us with competition that had no presence in the country. I had to explain this very same story over and over. 

Where I need to go with Rigol for performing calibration for my device? I know where I can do it for Fluke, Keysight, Tek...
That all cost money, that is because not able to do price comparison for Chinese brands and Americans brands.
Not only calibration but also repair and maintenance agreements - the oscilloscope becomes a very risky investment if one can't find options to keep it in the long run. This tends to cost money.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on April 27, 2017, 11:54:08 am
I would take scracthy probes all day long when compared to the DP832A overheat, Project Yaigol or the other user that had the ADC issues on his DS4000 due to the absence of a heatsink. My DS4000 came with NO heatsinks, and was purchased straight from them!

You deliberately take out the probe compensation issue? Or is that issue just a minor glitch in your opinion? Really?

- Even been perfectly compensated, after some time probes not give me same fine picture after some time of using scope (probably 1-2 hour) and after checking probe compensation again it seems just slightly  under compensated. I tried to do fine compensation for both probes after 20 min warm up my scope and repeat check it again after one hour of using scope, I seen just slight under compensation for my probes. Probably input chain is slightly unstable, I don't know exactly  :-//

And you really have no issue that Keysight is still building further on a 15 year old MegaZoom technology, which cripples the memory size to 1 MPts? The Education series of the 1000 X-Series even has less memory. Cripple the students ... cripple the future engineers that are going to drive further the technological evolution in this society. Yes ... why not Keysight?

Dear Keysight Product Management ... MegaZoom was great back then 15 years ago ... but come on... don't build further on to it, until infinity ... 1 MPts doesn't do the job anymore anno 2017, we know it, you know it, everybody knows it!

Hard to believe in fact that they haven't amortized the investment yet for that 15 year old ASIC.
Spinning a new ASIC is no rocket science these days, when using High-Level Synthesis tools.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on April 27, 2017, 12:35:44 pm
pascal_sweden -- I really don't understand what mission you see yourself on?

Feel free to buy something else. Feel free to apply for a marketing job at Keysight, so you can let them see the light. But apart from that, what are you trying to achieve here? Obtain a court ruling that Keysight be banned from the market for continuing to build on dated technology platform??

As others have said here, market acceptance is the only force that will drive price vs. feature set decisions. And I am pretty sure that the folks at Keysight are monitoring their sales, as well as the development of the market in general, quite closely, and are drawing their conclusions.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TK on April 27, 2017, 12:43:01 pm
You deliberately take out the probe compensation issue? Or is that issue just a minor glitch in your opinion? Really?
It might be an issue with one particular unit, as my unit does not show this problem
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: David Hess on April 27, 2017, 03:52:14 pm
The input capacitance of the oscilloscope is probably changing as it warms up which is a bad sign.  Is the compensation consistent as the high impedance input attenuators are switched in and out?

Do you mean, is some changing in the signal for 10x after switching from 10x to 1x and back 10x? No, signal remains same. Both probes have same behaviour on both channels.

I mean the oscilloscope has one or more switchable high impedance attenuators between the input BNC and the high impedance buffer.  If the input capacitance is drifting, then it is unlikely to be drifting by the same amount for each high impedance attenuator (1) so the compensation will not track as the volt/div is changed.

Quote
I assume that LF compensation is nothing more than matching output probe capacitance to the oscilloscope input probe capacitance. It should be equal and adjusting only by variable capacitor placed near BNC connector at the probe.  Only passive components involved in this chain.

That is basically correct or at least close enough for this discussion.  The compensation adjustment could be either in the x10 probe's body or at the BNC connector depending on the x10 probe's design.

Quote
I give my scope warm up 20 min and more and after that checking compensation matching. I use also use hi-res and averaging acquisition modes for make fine adjustment.

I do the same thing but without any warm up period because the compensation does not noticeably change on any of my oscilloscopes.  On my analog oscilloscopes, I enable their 20 MHz bandwidth limit to reduce noise.

Quote
If I switch off scope, in give him rest and start using again, probably next day, after checking compensation signal form not seems so fine adjusted. It always seems just slightly undercompensated.
May be I want fine precision, may be I just cavilling at the scope, probably it's ok for scope, I do not know. :-//

This is the part which seems odd; I would normally consider warm up drift of the compensation a design or manufacturing flaw.

Quote
Would bee good to check it with external signal generator, but I currently do not have it.

This is probably not a bad idea; maybe the probe compensation signal is drifting as it warms up.

An external signal source using a BNC to probe tip adapter is also a good way to get a very clean compensation signal.

(1) Each high impedance attenuator has its own input capacitance and compensation adjustments so any combination of attenuators always produces the same input capacitance.  Modern designs might be so precise that the input attenuators do not need to be trimmed.  Adjusting the input capacitance and compensation of these attenuators is very much like adjusting the compensation of a x10 probe and a x10 probe can be used for the procedure if an input capacitance normalizer is not available.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: rsjsouza on April 27, 2017, 04:19:52 pm
I would take scracthy probes all day long when compared to the DP832A overheat, Project Yaigol or the other user that had the ADC issues on his DS4000 due to the absence of a heatsink. My DS4000 came with NO heatsinks, and was purchased straight from them!

You deliberately take out the probe compensation issue? Or is that issue just a minor glitch in your opinion? Really?
So far this is an isolated case which may be a faulty unit.

Conversely, you deliberately failed to acknowledge that your previous assertions about Chinese brands are simply baseless.
(...)
In fact Chinese scopes are not subject to the basic flaws that were discovered recently on this American scope. And no, this is not a software problem. This is a plain hardware problem. Way to go Keysight!
(...)
Chinese scopes do have some software issues, but at least these can all be fixed in software.

Look, I understand how it seems frustrating that a higher price should give you a flawless and ultimate experience, but not only issues can creep into the production (that is what warranties are designed for) but there are also many details that come into consideration when the products evolve and fill specific market needs.

The HP marketers of 20 years ago would not have guessed they would create a joint venture with a local Chinese manufacturer only to see them as competition and having to create a product that addresses that market need, despite lacking the feature they mostly praised in the article. Also, their vision of 20 years ago certainly guided the path to modern days (they still have MSOs on their product line, for example), but they couldn't predict that a critical sales pitch of the future would be focused on the availability of serial decoding protocols, memory depth, software enabled options and others.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on April 27, 2017, 05:49:14 pm
Quote
Would bee good to check it with external signal generator, but I currently do not have it.

This is probably not a bad idea; maybe the probe compensation signal is drifting as it warms up.

But would a drift of the compensation signal really be critical, and be able to make previously adjusted probes appear uncompensated? I have always been working under the assumption that the details of the compensation reference signal don't matter much. In fact, my (low-end) scopes have compensation signals with pretty lame slopes...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ralphrmartin on April 27, 2017, 06:16:08 pm
Prices should have gone down over the past 20 years. Salaries are irrelevant in this discussion.

If the Chinese manufacturers can do it, why not the American manufacturers? Everything is produced in China anyhow.

Your logic is faulty. It is the high salaries of US engineers (relative to Chinese engineers) which keep the US equipment prices higher. Much of the cost of an oscilloscope is in the design and development and testing, not in the price of the parts. Many options offered by many scope manufacturers have basically zero parts cost.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: David Hess on April 27, 2017, 06:48:23 pm
Quote
Would bee good to check it with external signal generator, but I currently do not have it.

This is probably not a bad idea; maybe the probe compensation signal is drifting as it warms up.

But would a drift of the compensation signal really be critical, and be able to make previously adjusted probes appear uncompensated? I have always been working under the assumption that the details of the compensation reference signal don't matter much. In fact, my (low-end) scopes have compensation signals with pretty lame slopes...

For probe compensation the slope and overshoot of the compensation signal is less important than the low frequency settling time.  For example a compensation source which relies on bipolar Vce saturation for a flat pulse is likely to have problems.

But it is more likely that there is a problem with the vertical amplifier high input impedance circuits.  Printed circuit board "hook" problems can look like poor compensation and they are something which could vary from production run to production run.  I can just imagine some purchasing manager thinking, "One FR4 board supplier is as good as another, right?  RIGHT?"
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: AndyC_772 on April 27, 2017, 07:09:02 pm
I have always been working under the assumption that the details of the compensation reference signal don't matter much. In fact, my (low-end) scopes have compensation signals with pretty lame slopes...

You're quite right. Probe compensation is to do with frequencies much lower than you might expect, and there's no need for the compensation signal to have 'fast' edges anywhere near the bandwidth limit of the scope or probe.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on April 27, 2017, 07:29:23 pm
Well,
I did probe compensation more than one hour ago and last hour signal remain the same.
I'll do same measurement tomorrow after cold start my device.
I'll also marked issue with time format, hope Keysight will correct it in next FW release and will be possible to setup Time/Date format by user.

I also do not have ground wire in my supply line, inside my home phase and neutral only in sockets, but I suppose this is not problem for probe compensation.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nfmax on April 27, 2017, 07:33:10 pm
It might be worth looking at the effect of the temperature of the probe, as well.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on April 28, 2017, 06:19:49 am
I did exactly same measurements for probe compensation (same setup for acqusition, same room temperature, and etc..) after cold start.

As I told before, probes seems undercompensated.
Interesting, that this issue exactly same for both channels. Yesterday second channel probe was also exactly compensated after warm up, matched ch.1 probe.
Well, would be interesting to know what DanielBogdanoff will say about his testing. :-BROKE
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on May 02, 2017, 04:32:01 pm
The probes team is still looking into it, and getting some fresh probes from manufacturing to check in on things. It'll be at least a few days before we get our hands on a fresh set of probes.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on May 02, 2017, 08:08:25 pm
Hi Daniel,

Do you think that this is could be related with probes itself?
Well, seems I did pretty stupid testing, but I tried to logging temperature inside BNC connector. |O
I used my Fluke 287 with thermocouple probe putted inside BNC itself, because probes end, close to BNC seems to be "slightly" warm. This is chassis warm up, and to be honestly, I do not believe that passive components inside probe can be such unstable with 5-10 C degrees warm up.
After 5 min rest thermocouple probe inside the BNC (just to check that temp is stable), I turn on power of my scope. As you can see, temp was rice more than 7 C degrees at 25 min, after that thermocouple has been extracted.
At beginning, probes also seems been undercompensated, but with warm up it been more and more close to past fine compensation. After one hour probe connected to  Ch.1 seems been fine compensated.

Well,.. I connected  second probe, that rested on the table before, at Ch.2 BNC and after 15 min in seems to be approaching to Ch.1

I do not know, is it really make to sence, but hope it will help (if your team really see problem. Just may be all this does not matter for scope work)

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TK on May 02, 2017, 08:22:16 pm
The probes team is still looking into it, and getting some fresh probes from manufacturing to check in on things. It'll be at least a few days before we get our hands on a fresh set of probes.
I am experiencing a similar problem with the 70MHz probes included with the EDUX scope.  I compensate them, and I find them uncompensated many days later, but not clear the circumstances... sometimes is right after cold startup and it does not change with the scope warmed up.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on May 02, 2017, 08:34:32 pm
Thank TK,

Because seems, only one who watching how I suffer from chicken-feed with this probes right here. Unfortunately, she telling nothing   :P

I discovered this issue when I tried to setup my scope right from the box after arriving. I did initial probe compensation but after some time I found signal changing and repeat this procedure twice or more
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on May 02, 2017, 09:57:05 pm
Hi @serggio,

It's definitely possible it's a probe thing, but I'm going to hold off on making any guesses until the R&D folks do their investigating.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on May 03, 2017, 03:37:07 pm
Scrapped my toy..

Finally found a way to buy this thing, turns out a nearby electronics shop resells a lot of Farnell stuff - so I got them to stock the DSOX1102A. For those in Norway, it can be purchased here: https://www.digitalimpuls.no/WebPages/Produkt/ProduktInfo.aspx?plid=155058 (https://www.digitalimpuls.no/WebPages/Produkt/ProduktInfo.aspx?plid=155058)

First impressions are very much positive, looks small and compact, feels heavy and solid, nice and large screen, responsive and intuitive (G)UI. All I would expect from Keysight  :-+.

You can message me all the license options when you have time Daniel, won't tell anyone  >:D

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: kcbrown on May 03, 2017, 08:11:50 pm
Thank TK,

Because seems, only one who watching how I suffer from chicken-feed with this probes right here. Unfortunately, she telling nothing   :P

I discovered this issue when I tried to setup my scope right from the box after arriving. I did initial probe compensation but after some time I found signal changing and repeat this procedure twice or more

Are you sure the issue isn't this:

(http://rubmint.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/ff23a_funny-pictures-cat-fixes-wires.jpg)

 ;D
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on May 03, 2017, 08:31:16 pm
Preliminary findings on the probe comp issue:

R&D says it appears that the compensation change is correlated to probe temperature. We still have a very small sample size for testing the issue and are waiting for a shipment of more to further characterize and evaluate.

For now, R&D's guidance is that if highly accurate measurements are required, warm up both scope & probe together then compensate.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on May 03, 2017, 08:42:16 pm
I made sure to compensate my probes as accurately as I could, will report any issues if I see them. Nothing so far.

Anyone know if it's possible to hide the menu? I want all the screen for my waveforms!

Should definitely add a 24-hour clock option, it's a bit like Fahrenheit..
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on May 03, 2017, 09:20:53 pm
I did some quick tests - only saw a few pixels' worth of change at 200mv/div on the front-panel cal signal over temp - not that significant in practice.
 
However what was very noticeable was that the compensation adjustment is very sensitive, sometimes quite tricky to set exactly right, and IMO seems to have way too much adjustment range. With so much range it's easy to see how small effect of temperature could significantly affect the setting.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: AndyC_772 on May 04, 2017, 06:56:19 am
Should definitely add a 24-hour clock option, it's a bit like Fahrenheit..

The 24 hr clock is obsolete? Since when?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on May 04, 2017, 07:00:19 am
Should definitely add a 24-hour clock option, it's a bit like Fahrenheit..

The 24 hr clock is obsolete? Since when?

The opposite. The 12-hour clock is not at all intuitive to me, I don't like it, never use it. Presenting me with a 12-hour clock is like giving me the temperature in Fahrenheit, annoying and counter-intuitive.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TK on May 04, 2017, 12:27:24 pm
I think I found a BUG in my EDUX1002G.  The signal on the training/compensation signal output changes depending on the modulation of the WAVEGEN output.  The square wave from the compensation signal changes to sinusoidal if AM modulation is used on the wavegen.  The same issue if I use the training pulse signal (same output as the compensation signal), it changes to sinusoidal if AM modulation is activated.

Channel 1 is the compensation/training signal.  Channel 2 is connected to wavegen output.

EDIT: I think the compensation/training signal output is used to do the AM modulation.  The frequency changes from 10KHz to 1KHz (1KHz is the AM modulation frequency)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on May 04, 2017, 03:01:55 pm
cool! do can-bus modulated carrier  :-DD
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on May 08, 2017, 12:36:10 pm
Any update on the probe compensation issue from Keysight Product Management?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on May 08, 2017, 05:16:35 pm
I can confirm the performance of the probes are not that great, they do drift more than even the cheapest of probes out there (generic P6200 type, filename abbr. Mic).

I've attached screenshots below.

I had the scope turned on for 15 minutes before doing the compensation and measurements. It was turned off during the 3 hours.

Likely getting a new pair of probes to use with this one.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on May 08, 2017, 06:41:45 pm
Likely getting a new pair of probes to use with this one.
Not you alone.. Hope that Keysight will start recalls company for this probes
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: David Hess on May 08, 2017, 07:09:32 pm
An input capacitance normalizer could be used to run this test without a probe to verify the oscilloscope itself.  They are easy enough to make with a 1 megohm resistor and adjustable  capacitance.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tektronix-input-rc-normalizer-067-0537-00-data-sheetmanual/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tektronix-input-rc-normalizer-067-0537-00-data-sheetmanual/)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on May 08, 2017, 07:43:03 pm
An input capacitance normalizer could be used to run this test without a probe to verify the oscilloscope itself.  They are easy enough to make with a 1 megohm resistor and adjustable  capacitance.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tektronix-input-rc-normalizer-067-0537-00-data-sheetmanual/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tektronix-input-rc-normalizer-067-0537-00-data-sheetmanual/)

One problem is how to send LF test signal to the BNC input  :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: David Hess on May 08, 2017, 08:19:20 pm
An input capacitance normalizer could be used to run this test without a probe to verify the oscilloscope itself.  They are easy enough to make with a 1 megohm resistor and adjustable  capacitance.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tektronix-input-rc-normalizer-067-0537-00-data-sheetmanual/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tektronix-input-rc-normalizer-067-0537-00-data-sheetmanual/)

One problem is how to send LF test signal to the BNC input  :)

This is why real oscilloscopes (1) use a BNC connector for the probe compensation signal. :)

A function generator output is more than sufficient or at least it should be.

(1) Real HEAVY oscilloscopes.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TK on May 09, 2017, 01:10:56 pm
I think I found a BUG in my EDUX1002G.  The signal on the training/compensation signal output changes depending on the modulation of the WAVEGEN output.  The square wave from the compensation signal changes to sinusoidal if AM modulation is used on the wavegen.  The same issue if I use the training pulse signal (same output as the compensation signal), it changes to sinusoidal if AM modulation is activated.

Channel 1 is the compensation/training signal.  Channel 2 is connected to wavegen output.

EDIT: I think the compensation/training signal output is used to do the AM modulation.  The frequency changes from 10KHz to 1KHz (1KHz is the AM modulation frequency)
Any comments from Keysight?

Is there any thread on this forum to report bugs on the Keysight X-Series scopes?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on May 09, 2017, 07:07:50 pm
Any comments from Keysight?

Is there any thread on this forum to report bugs on the Keysight X-Series scopes?

Sorry! Super busy week :). R&D also monitors this thread and is working on a patch. I'll post more details once that's available, it shouldn't be more than a week or two.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TK on May 09, 2017, 07:30:39 pm
Any comments from Keysight?

Is there any thread on this forum to report bugs on the Keysight X-Series scopes?

Sorry! Super busy week :). R&D also monitors this thread and is working on a patch. I'll post more details once that's available, it shouldn't be more than a week or two.
Thanks!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on May 17, 2017, 07:53:47 pm
No updates for another week on this issue! Really?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on May 25, 2017, 10:03:50 pm
Hi Everyone!

A couple things:

1. For the probe comp/modulation thing, that's part of how we implemented the modulation - I'll comment further with a reply from the support team, but it's not a bug, just something that may have to be worked around.

2. Probes - We're still evaluating the issue, but can confirm that we do see the capacitor drifting with temperature. We are working to characterize it and figure out how prevalent the issue is as some units appear to show it more than others. I'll follow up here with more info as it comes to me. Thanks for your patience!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TK on May 25, 2017, 11:54:36 pm
2. Probes - We're still evaluating the issue, but can confirm that we do see the capacitor drifting with temperature. We are working to characterize it and figure out how prevalent the issue is as some units appear to show it more than others. I'll follow up here with more info as it comes to me. Thanks for your patience!
I have the EDUX with the 70MHz probe and both of them have the same problem.  Heating probes or storing them in a temperature controlled environment is not possible in a hobby lab.  I am not sure if it is just the temperature, there must a mechanical issue because it always goes to undercompensated status, even when temperature in my basement changes up and down... never looks overcompensated...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on May 29, 2017, 10:35:55 am
Just received my new one Keysight N2843A Passive Probe...

(http://s019.radikal.ru/i638/1705/dc/2e473ec15322.jpg)

Probe as probe, seems well done, till I not started to using it...
Probe body been very sensitive to touching it.

(http://s009.radikal.ru/i308/1705/c9/dbdb72d8baf4.jpg)

Fortunately, no tools needed to disassembly it, both parts of case connected by latchs.

(http://s002.radikal.ru/i198/1705/1d/15f7ce5ef505.jpg)

As we can see, shield caps not soldered to shield body and just putted in case, each from it's own side - that is all assembly.  |O
But what inside?? :o Look at soldering.... WTF?? |O |O |O

(http://s019.radikal.ru/i604/1705/58/a5f05f437f32.jpg)

(http://s018.radikal.ru/i502/1705/89/3d32da9506df.jpg)

(http://s018.radikal.ru/i504/1705/f9/d105b969cfbe.jpg)

(http://s018.radikal.ru/i524/1705/8b/b0c08f8e0f5d.jpg)

(http://s019.radikal.ru/i620/1705/45/4e545269ee16.jpg)

(http://s019.radikal.ru/i617/1705/dd/061b50e6e59d.jpg)

(http://s03.radikal.ru/i176/1705/bd/58168b244055.jpg)

If I will somewhen soldering like this I'll cut off my hands oneself... No comments...  :(

(http://s41.radikal.ru/i093/1705/48/12ffe24c781d.png)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TK on May 29, 2017, 12:10:16 pm
The probe looks totally fake.  If I were you, I would Initiate a claim on eBay to get the money back.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: David Hess on May 29, 2017, 12:11:55 pm
I suspect Texas of China either makes these probes for Keysight or someone else OEMs them for both.  Except for the color, they look exactly like the ones shown at the bottom of the Texas page (http://www.hktexas.hk/en/pro_1_readout.html) for their readout probes.

There are other Keysight/Agilent probes which look like other probe models from Texas as well.
Title: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on May 29, 2017, 12:28:36 pm
I don't know, is this fake or not, I do not have access to Keysight office for take same probe and compare it...
Would be appreciate, if somebody will do picture inside same "original one" probes. It supplied with DSOX3000 series scopes.

But it not big deal to soldering shield caps to body. Now, no problem with noises when I touch it.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170529/6e026606db8a970ca3c3dc31e8e59a54.jpg)

Seems, I'm pretty lucky with Keysight's probes  ;D

Just interesting, how much different this one (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1X-10X-Adjustable-200MHz-Alligator-Clip-Oscilloscope-Probe-Kit-Accessories-A6V7-/401249413403?hash=item5d6c54291b:g:BhIAAOSw5cNYYOX1) from original one Keysight N2140A, supplied with DSOX1000

May be I live in past, but when I pay my money for Brand name products like Fluke, Keisight (Agilent/HP), I expect quality...
Quality at all...
But now it far away from real world  :(
Marketing experts often VP at technical companies, they looking for are way how to economize money for production in China, sell shit and have salary with five zeros after comma:--
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: David Hess on May 29, 2017, 02:26:10 pm
Keysight is not the only one selling remarked Texas probes; other DSO manufacturers use them also.

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Monkeh on May 29, 2017, 03:05:50 pm
I solder better drunk. And I clean things.

Dear Keysight: WTF?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Bud on May 29, 2017, 03:23:49 pm
China. Nuff said.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: madires on May 29, 2017, 03:24:38 pm
Is that probe genuine (possibly rebranded) or a counterfeit?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on May 29, 2017, 03:42:33 pm
Is that probe genuine (possibly rebranded) or a counterfeit?
How I can say? I do not made any molecular analyses for probe/parts/package... I do not see any issue at package, printing, included part, except what inside probes itself.
I bought it on eBay from UK, I bought my scope at Amazon from US, but is this really matter?
I can make any Hi-Res photos for each parts, I can sent it directly to Keysight office, but I really have interest before it, is all this probes are the same? May be someone have same probes
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on May 29, 2017, 03:50:48 pm
This is N2140A probe that been included with my scope.
No need much experience for move rubber sleeve and look what inside

(http://s009.radikal.ru/i307/1705/9c/755b25953b12.jpg)

(http://s009.radikal.ru/i309/1705/d2/f3bdbc977542.jpg)

(http://s018.radikal.ru/i511/1705/fd/0df50c09b8eb.jpg)

Interesting to see central conductor under capacitor body, right?

And another one

(http://s018.radikal.ru/i525/1705/d6/62d68dcfee2d.jpg)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: PA0PBZ on May 29, 2017, 06:15:05 pm
One of the four N2890A I got with my 3000X directly from Keysight. Bag says made in China, soldering looks a bit better but nobody cared to remove the flux, and the top and bottom shields also not soldered.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-scope-1st-march-2017/?action=dlattach;attach=319728;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-scope-1st-march-2017/?action=dlattach;attach=319730;image)

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Amazing on May 29, 2017, 06:42:48 pm
I was pretty surprised by serggio's photos, so I took apart one of the N2843A probes that came with the 3104T that I purchased in December 2016.

I don't have time to take photos right now, but it was similar to what serggio posted;  Slightly better in some respects.  Mine also had blobby solder, misaligned components, flux everywhere, and the shield covers were not soldered down.  :--

My probes came direct from the Keysight factory in Malaysia so it's unlikely that they are fakes.

I REALLY wasn't expecting this lack of quality from Keysight. 


Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on May 29, 2017, 06:58:37 pm
Hi Amazing,
Many thanks for confirmation!
I also contacted with seller and he confirmed that this probes was supplied by Keysight.
I do not see any reason that this is counterfeit, but I can say:
Keysight want to much money when established price for that at $191  :-- No way, probably $19,10 will be enough.

As for noise when you touch probe's body... Probably this is not seen at DSOX 2000/3000 series when probe's readout actuator connected to the scope contact, but my scope don't have this connection, that is because bad shield inside probe was very sensitive to noises. Don't know, probably another one "two months task" for Keysight probe's team.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Amazing on May 29, 2017, 07:36:45 pm

I did a quick test and I'm not seeing any noise on the 3000T when I tap the probe body (scope end).  I have to wiggle it quite a bit to get any trace disturbance, much more than I would in any normal situation.

Yes, it's ugly inside but this is still much better than a $19 probe.  I've had quite a few of those cheap probes in the past and they all just seem to fall apart at some point even with no abuse. 

On the other hand, the probes that came with my Rigol DS1202CA have been fantastic, and it's been almost a decade...
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on May 29, 2017, 07:45:13 pm
Just connect it to Probe Comp terminal, setup 10-50 mV/div and tough it from probe compensation side.

http://radikal.ru/video/8TqXPso01OG (http://radikal.ru/video/8TqXPso01OG)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on May 29, 2017, 07:58:59 pm
Yes, it's ugly inside but this is still much better than a $19 probe.  I've had quite a few of those cheap probes in the past and they all just seem to fall apart at some point even with no abuse. 
What is cheap? Testec makes decent probes and you can buy a set for less than 50 euro or so. Remember these kind of high-Z passive probes are consumables anyway. Sooner or later they will break.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Amazing on May 29, 2017, 08:10:24 pm
serggio,  I duplicated your noise test but it's not happening for me.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on May 29, 2017, 08:29:32 pm
Thank Amazing!
As I assumed, this is probably my scope do not have readout actuator connection, and before soldering shield covers to body that's been pretty much bad than in my video... They been sensitive at 1v/div.  :palm:
But, regarding to Keysight web site this probes compatible with my scope too..
http://www.keysight.com/en/pc-1659288/oscilloscope-probes?pm=SC&nid=-32557.0&cc=US&lc=eng (http://www.keysight.com/en/pc-1659288/oscilloscope-probes?pm=SC&nid=-32557.0&cc=US&lc=eng)

Updated:
Noises, when touching N2843A probe body close to BNC appears only if scope isolated from ground. Same time N2140A probe do not sensitive to touching in same condition with same scope
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on June 06, 2017, 09:31:00 pm
Dear Keysight!
Any news with N2140A probes compensation drift issue?
My warranty limited, it's not lifetime.
I understand that you have nothing to say about "quality" N2843A probes, but it not have this issue with temperature drift compensation at least.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on June 14, 2017, 06:14:35 pm
The probe compensation drift issue has been reported on April 27th.

Still no clear resolution from Keysight up to now. We are talking about more than 5 weeks!

Any update dear Keysight? Are you still actively working on this, or have you dropped the investigation?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on June 14, 2017, 07:02:36 pm
Sorry, I thought I had commented on this last week. It's still being worked on, but that's all I can say at this point.

-Daniel
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on June 14, 2017, 07:18:52 pm
Hi Daniel,
Probably you seen my photos for N2843A probes.
Could you comment it, pls?

Regards
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on June 20, 2017, 07:44:06 pm
Good question on the probes - we don't solder the shielding in for a variety of manufacturing reasons and leave it as a snap-together part. When talking with the probes team, they agreed that soldering them would make a better shield, but the current non-soldered option still performs quite well unless you have a significant noise source nearby. And, if you have a significant noise source nearby, it'll likely be causing issues beyond the probe shielding.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: dentaku on July 08, 2017, 03:00:17 am
This is N2140A probe that been included with my scope.
No need much experience for move rubber sleeve and look what inside


Interesting to see central conductor under capacitor body, right?

And another one


It's good to see photos of what's inside one of those probes. One of mine was defective right out of the box and I just got an email from someone at Keysight saying that he would RMA it.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on July 08, 2017, 09:49:56 am
It's good to see photos of what's inside one of those probes. One of mine was defective right out of the box and I just got an email from someone at Keysight saying that he would RMA it.
Seems, in race of profit some manufacturers forget what Quality control is.  :--
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on July 08, 2017, 10:56:38 am
It's good to see photos of what's inside one of those probes.

But it's not so good to see them twice, due to your full quote.  :P

Please limit quotes to what is necessary to provide a reference for your post, especially if they have lots of pictures. Thanks!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fred27 on July 08, 2017, 01:17:13 pm
Personally it bugs me when people quote a long post that's directly above their reply. In that case there's no quote need at all.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: David Hess on July 08, 2017, 05:05:57 pm
It's good to see photos of what's inside one of those probes. One of mine was defective right out of the box and I just got an email from someone at Keysight saying that he would RMA it.

Seems, in race of profit some manufacturers forget what Quality control is.  :--

Many of the probes Keysight sells are OEMed by Texas based in Hong Kong and Texas OEMs probes for others also.  However, I am not sure who makes the N2140A probe.

Tektronix has not made their own probes or cable since the 1990s or something; they sold off the equipment and outsourced it all.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: serggio on July 08, 2017, 05:15:41 pm
Many of the probes Keysight sells are OEMed by Texas based in Hong Kong and Texas OEMs probes for others also.  However, I am not sure who makes the N2140A probe.

Tektronix has not made their own probes or cable since the 1990s or something; they sold off the equipment and outsourced it all.
Is this really matter? Car actually consist from tens OEM components, but car manufacturers responsible for their final product. You as customer should no worry who is supplier for this OEM parts.
If Keysight offering OEM probes under their brand, they should make quality control. If they not able to send quality control engineer to their OEM parts supplier facility, that is no means that they not responsible for "their" products.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: David Hess on July 08, 2017, 06:35:51 pm
Many of the probes Keysight sells are OEMed by Texas based in Hong Kong and Texas OEMs probes for others also.  However, I am not sure who makes the N2140A probe.

Tektronix has not made their own probes or cable since the 1990s or something; they sold off the equipment and outsourced it all.

Is this really matter? Car actually consist from tens OEM components, but car manufacturers responsible for their final product. You as customer should no worry who is supplier for this OEM parts.

If Keysight offering OEM probes under their brand, they should make quality control. If they not able to send quality control engineer to their OEM parts supplier facility, that is no means that they not responsible for "their" products.

It matters insofar as Keysight apparently has a quality control problem with their probes; the reports of drifting compensation and microphonic effects involving the shielding and the photographs showing the poor construction of the probes are not reassuring.  I have a few of the Texas probes and do not consider them equal in quality to the probes Tektronix used to make but they are acceptable for their low price.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on July 16, 2017, 06:41:32 am
Any update on the probe compensation drift issue which has been reported on April 27th?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Fred27 on July 16, 2017, 08:13:52 am
@pascal_sweden You haven't even got one. Time to shut up about it now.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on July 16, 2017, 08:30:18 am
It's a matter of principle. Nothing more.

I am eager to hear feedback from His Majesty Keysight :)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on July 16, 2017, 08:32:55 am
I doubt they care, and I wouldn't have a problem with that.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on July 17, 2017, 05:39:52 am
I doubt they care, and I wouldn't have a problem with that.

I am eager to hear feedback from His Majesty Keysight :)

We absolutely do care and have been working pretty hard to get a complete answer for you all. It's unfortunately not as straightforward as just a phone call/e-mail.

 ?
 :D
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on July 17, 2017, 07:44:29 am
It's a matter of principle. Nothing more.
I am eager to hear feedback from His Majesty Keysight :)

Pascal, please ease off, Keysight have said they are working on it.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on July 18, 2017, 04:27:56 am
Thanks, Dave.

Here's the response from the support team, who is handling the official communication around this probe concern. This is an official Keysight statement from the support team, not my normal forum stuff.

Quote

Ensure the best performance when using your InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series oscilloscopes/probes

Keysight is committed to supporting our customers and ensuring they make the highest integrity measurements possible.  In a few situations the N2140/42A probe compensation has been found to drift.   Keysight is working on a component modification to improve the performance of the N2140/42A probes and will communicate more as details become available. 

To prevent drift from happening and to ensure the best possible measurement with your N2140/42A probes, Keysight recommends the following procedures for optimal probe compensation:
•   Prior to making a measurement, power on and warm up the oscilloscope (with the N2140/42A  probes connected) for a minimum of 30 minutes.
•   When engaging and turning the N2140/42A  probe’s adjustment screw, don’t excessively push down on the component.
•   If the ambient temperature in the area in which the oscilloscope is being used changes more than 5 degrees C, the probe compensation steps should be repeated. 


So the above tips are good advice in general to get the best possible comp  :-/O.

I'm headed on vacation tomorrow where I won't have internet  :phew:, and won't be back until 25-July. So, I won't be able to respond to comments or questions between now and then.

If this issue is having an effect on your work, please do not hesitate to call your local Keysight support center and let them know. Also feel free to point them to this thread and/or response if they haven't seen it yet. If this is measurably impacting your measurements, please let us know through the normal Keysight support channels as this is potentially more than I can reasonably handle through the forum.

Thanks for your patience & understanding!

-Daniel
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Simon on July 18, 2017, 06:33:10 am
There, I fixed your display name.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: pascal_sweden on July 18, 2017, 09:33:12 am
Thanks Daniel. Appreciated!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: dos on July 22, 2017, 09:03:35 am
Does this scope have an intensity graded display like the 2000X? Does it have a hardware frequency counter (I saw in Dave's review of the 2000X that that model does not)?

EDIT: Also, is there a single unbiased and in depth review of this scope (comparing it to other models in it's class preferably) from anyone? I find it kind of strange that none of the big names who have received this (Dave included, sadly) haven't given it a real critical look in operation and comparison to other scopes @ similar pricepoints, though the teardown was nice. Is there something binding the people who received this scope from doing an in depth look at it in operation or something? I'm currently looking for something to replace my creaky-ass Siglent 1072CML and obviously I would like to have a "good name" (particularly since I'm an HP fanboy) but from where I'm sitting it seems like that's all you get for your money here, I would love to be proven wrong. What are the tangible and objective benefits here? When you buy a Mercedes over a Kia you get build quality and a good name but you also get performance. There's an odd situation here where the Kias (Rigol, Siglent, Instek) seem to have better performance over this Mercedes (again, I am dying to see a review or commentary that proves me wrong because deep down I want this thing).
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on July 22, 2017, 09:49:49 am
Does this scope have an intensity graded display like the 2000X? Does it have a hardware frequency counter (I saw in Dave's review of the 2000X that that model does not)?

EDIT: Also, is there a single unbiased and in depth review of this scope (comparing it to other models in it's class preferably) from anyone? I find it kind of strange that none of the big names who have received this (Dave included, sadly) haven't given it a real critical look in operation and comparison to other scopes @ similar pricepoints, though the teardown was nice. Is there something binding the people who received this scope from doing an in depth look at it in operation or something? I'm currently looking for something to replace my creaky-ass Siglent 1072CML and obviously I would like to have a "good name" (particularly since I'm an HP fanboy) but from where I'm sitting it seems like that's all you get for your money here, I would love to be proven wrong. What are the tangible and objective benefits here? When you buy a Mercedes over a Kia you get build quality and a good name but you also get performance. There's an odd situation here where the Kias (Rigol, Siglent, Instek) seem to have better performance over this Mercedes (again, I am dying to see a review or commentary that proves me wrong because deep down I want this thing).
Grab the 200 MHz SDS1202X-E and step into another class of DSO from your CML.
There'll be someone on the forum starting out that'll happily grab the CML off you and help subsidise the step up.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: dos on July 22, 2017, 10:22:23 am
Grab the 200 MHz SDS1202X-E and step into another class of DSO from your CML.
There'll be someone on the forum starting out that'll happily grab the CML off you and help subsidise the step up.

Yeah, that's what I'm leaning towards but I would like to wait for a real in depth review of this Keysight before making any decisions. I don't need the 200MHz bandwidth, and the Keysight unit has 2Gsa/s whereas the 1202X-E only has 1 (tho the Keysight has a smaller memory). I also just don't like the way the Siglent looks, it seems chintzier than my 1072 (which honestly has held up fine, it's just ungodly slow) and it's a dumb complaint but the pink second channel looks silly. The knobs also look cheap and it seems like they changed them from the regular 1202X, maybe to cut costs. I will also miss the "bonus" digital channel the Keysight has, which seems like one of the big plusses in it's favor. The UI of the Siglent looks great however and I like that the wide screen is actually taken advantage of with 14 horizontal divisions that are perfectly square, a proper hardware frequency counter that's always on in the upper right, and a generally uncluttered display. Why are these things so hard for some other manufacturers to do?

If the Siglent had a 4 channel model of the 1000X series (with independent controls) for a few hundred dollars more it would be a no brainer though. There's the Rigol 1054Z and Instek 1000B but the former seems sluggish and has a cluttered UI/annoying single vertical control and the latter looks like it was designed by a crack head for twenty dollars
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on July 22, 2017, 10:37:38 am
Grab the 200 MHz SDS1202X-E and step into another class of DSO from your CML.
There'll be someone on the forum starting out that'll happily grab the CML off you and help subsidise the step up.

Yeah, that's what I'm leaning towards but I would like to wait for a real in depth review of this Keysight before making any decisions. I don't need the 200MHz bandwidth, and the Keysight unit has 2Gsa/s whereas the 1202X-E only has 1 (tho the Keysight has a smaller memory). I also just don't like the way the Siglent looks, it seems chintzier than my 1072 (which honestly has held up fine, it's just ungodly slow) and it's a dumb complaint but the pink second channel looks silly. The knobs also look cheap and it seems like they changed them from the regular 1202X, maybe to cut costs. I will also miss the "bonus" digital channel the Keysight has, which seems like one of the big plusses in it's favor. The UI of the Siglent looks great however and I like that the wide screen is actually taken advantage of with 14 horizontal divisions that are perfectly square, a proper hardware frequency counter that's always on in the upper right, and a generally uncluttered display. Why are these things so hard for some other manufacturers to do?

If the Siglent had a 4 channel model of the 1000X series (with independent controls) for a few hundred dollars more it would be a no brainer though. There's the Rigol 1054Z and Instek 1000B but the former seems sluggish and has a cluttered UI/annoying single vertical control and the latter looks like it was designed by a crack head for twenty dollars
OK, you appear to have a reasonable handle on things but you need find an X-E and have a test drive.
IMO the 1kX is nicer than the X-E but my opinion is predominantly based on the larger display but the X-E has some nice features.
Each manufacturer sticks to their own trace colour scheme and what you mightn't be aware of is in the CML+ released a few months back Siglent dropped the ch2 blue like yours to standardise all their later releases as ch2 pink.
The perfect scope is yet to be made.  :(
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: exe on July 22, 2017, 11:06:45 am
If the Siglent had a 4 channel model of the 1000X series (with independent controls) for a few hundred dollars more it would be a no brainer though. There's the Rigol 1054Z and Instek 1000B but the former seems sluggish and has a cluttered UI/annoying single vertical control and the latter looks like it was designed by a crack head for twenty dollars

There is also Micsig TO1074 (I own to1104) :). Anyway, I recommend try all scopes you interested in and pick the one that suits you best. Also be sure to use latest firmware available.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Gandalf_Sr on July 22, 2017, 11:07:24 am
Do you get wafers with it?

(see Monty Python Albatross sketch)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: dos on July 22, 2017, 11:15:20 am
There is also Micsig TO1074 (I own to1104) :). Anyway, I recommend try all scopes you interested in and pick the one that suits you best. Also be sure to use latest firmware available.

Personally I would never use a scope like that, I like real knobs and buttons. I wish I lived somewhere close to a Keysight or Siglent dealer with some kind of showroom but Florida is a wasteland for that kind of thing. I've gotten good at watching in depth reviews and figuring out if the item suits my needs though, which is why I'm dying to see someone (like Dave for instance) really put the Keysight through it's paces.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: exe on July 22, 2017, 11:17:23 am
Personally I would never use a scope like that, I like real knobs and buttons.

I thought so too up until recently. Anyway, I don't insist, it's a matter of taste.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: exe on July 22, 2017, 11:20:39 am
Do you get wafers with it?

"'Cause you don't get bloody wafers with it!" Not only just that, mine seems not equipped with stereo speakers, that's a bummer :(
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on July 22, 2017, 04:20:56 pm
There is also Micsig TO1074 (I own to1104) :). Anyway, I recommend try all scopes you interested in and pick the one that suits you best. Also be sure to use latest firmware available.
Personally I would never use a scope like that, I like real knobs and buttons.
You'll change your mind within 5 minutes when using a scope with a good touch screen UI (*). Human brains are much better wired for using a touch screen than knobs.

(*) I had a short play with a recent Keysight S-series scope a couple of weeks ago but the touch screen interface didn't impress me much becuase it was more like a replacement for using a mouse.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: GlowingGhoul on July 22, 2017, 07:49:11 pm
There is also Micsig TO1074 (I own to1104) :). Anyway, I recommend try all scopes you interested in and pick the one that suits you best. Also be sure to use latest firmware available.
Personally I would never use a scope like that, I like real knobs and buttons.
You'll change your mind within 5 minutes when using a scope with a good touch screen UI (*). Human brains are much better wired for using a touch screen than knobs.

(*) I had a short play with a recent Keysight S-series scope a couple of weeks ago but the touch screen interface didn't impress me much becuase it was more like a replacement for using a mouse.

Audio/video and automotive control manufacturers used to think that touch interfaces were better as well. Now it's universally understood by ergonomic designers that frequently used linear controls are far superior in the form of physical interfaces. Think volume controls, temperature controls, etc, now often residing side by side with touchscreen interfaces.

Touch only in most instances is simply cheaper to deploy, but not superior to a proper combination of the two.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on July 22, 2017, 09:05:42 pm
There is also Micsig TO1074 (I own to1104) :). Anyway, I recommend try all scopes you interested in and pick the one that suits you best. Also be sure to use latest firmware available.

Personally I would never use a scope like that, I like real knobs and buttons. I wish I lived somewhere close to a Keysight or Siglent dealer with some kind of showroom but Florida is a wasteland for that kind of thing.
The US Siglent site lists these guys as Florida reps:
http://www.dbm-marketing.net/contact.html (http://www.dbm-marketing.net/contact.html)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: dos on July 23, 2017, 01:50:38 am
There is also Micsig TO1074 (I own to1104) :). Anyway, I recommend try all scopes you interested in and pick the one that suits you best. Also be sure to use latest firmware available.

Personally I would never use a scope like that, I like real knobs and buttons. I wish I lived somewhere close to a Keysight or Siglent dealer with some kind of showroom but Florida is a wasteland for that kind of thing.
The US Siglent site lists these guys as Florida reps:
http://www.dbm-marketing.net/contact.html (http://www.dbm-marketing.net/contact.html)

Are these the sort of people to be bothered to set up a demo for one guy looking for a $4-600 scope for his own workshop? I don't really see mention of a storefront or anything that suggests they want to interact with the general public/people not placing big orders. Also, I have a pretty good idea of how the 1202X(E) operates and what it's strengths and weaknesses are, there are several in depth reviews etc. I'm really looking for a good hard critical look at the Keysight which despite the scope being given away left and right doesn't really seem to exist (kind of strange, yeah?)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: exe on July 23, 2017, 07:56:43 am
Are these the sort of people to be bothered to set up a demo for one guy looking for a $4-600 scope for his own workshop?

Why not? It never hurts to ask :). You can also try find a local workshop or something or even ask here at eevblog if someone can arrange a small demo. Also people often willing to help individual hobbyist, even those who deal only with corporate clients.

I have a pretty good idea of how the 1202X(E) operates and what it's strengths and weaknesses are, there are several in depth reviews etc.

Imho, only If you need very basic functions (but then you can take any scope). And here is why.

I'm yet to see a really comprehensive review on all functions. So, no matter how many reviews I watched on 1202X-E, TO1104, 1052E (plus a few hours of playing with R&S, Keysight and GWS scopes) I still discovered a lot of things relevant to me and not covered in any review. Like, "advanced" triggering (e.g., on noisy signal), clock skew/lag between channels, dc accuracy, remote control, remote access to saved files, advanced measurements (gain and phase, etc), math (beyond simple +/- operations), etc. Even standard functions can be implemented slightly differently, different enough to add a lot of hustle in some particular scenarios relevant to my typical usage. Plus, as new FW versions released, reviews outdate.

So, I only trust my hands-on experience. Preferably, with somebody more experienced around to explain me "weird" behavior or help to set it up. It's very easy to make things wrong with a DSO when going beyond simple stuff.

PS I suggest a four channel model (even if it comes at cost) for two reasons: 1) differential measurements (remember all channels connected to the ground, you cannot just connect probes in arbitrary way) 2) I often have multiple DUTs it's convenient to dedicate, say, channel 4 for quick-n-dirty measurements without disconnecting probes from the main device.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: dos on July 23, 2017, 10:44:47 am
PS I suggest a four channel model (even if it comes at cost) for two reasons: 1) differential measurements (remember all channels connected to the ground, you cannot just connect probes in arbitrary way) 2) I often have multiple DUTs it's convenient to dedicate, say, channel 4 for quick-n-dirty measurements without disconnecting probes from the main device.

Really the two analog plus one digital channel of the Keysight is fine for my uses, of course ideally I would like a 4 channel model, and I'm looking really hard at the Siglent 2102X which Saelig has on sale for just under $800. I'm just not sure I want to spend that much on a Siglent (no offense Siglent employees, insert any Chinese brand there and I feel the same)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on July 23, 2017, 09:09:06 pm
PS I suggest a four channel model (even if it comes at cost) for two reasons: 1) differential measurements (remember all channels connected to the ground, you cannot just connect probes in arbitrary way) 2) I often have multiple DUTs it's convenient to dedicate, say, channel 4 for quick-n-dirty measurements without disconnecting probes from the main device.

Really the two analog plus one digital channel of the Keysight is fine for my uses, of course ideally I would like a 4 channel model, and I'm looking really hard at the Siglent 2102X which Saelig has on sale for just under $800. I'm just not sure I want to spend that much on a Siglent (no offense Siglent employees, insert any Chinese brand there and I feel the same)
They're a big step from CML and ~twice the physical size. To get one fully spec'ed (DC, FG, LA) will cost a lot more but you'd probably never want anything better. Yep, I have a 2304X as my personal unit.
PM me you you want to know more.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: dos on July 24, 2017, 06:47:11 am
PS I suggest a four channel model (even if it comes at cost) for two reasons: 1) differential measurements (remember all channels connected to the ground, you cannot just connect probes in arbitrary way) 2) I often have multiple DUTs it's convenient to dedicate, say, channel 4 for quick-n-dirty measurements without disconnecting probes from the main device.

Really the two analog plus one digital channel of the Keysight is fine for my uses, of course ideally I would like a 4 channel model, and I'm looking really hard at the Siglent 2102X which Saelig has on sale for just under $800. I'm just not sure I want to spend that much on a Siglent (no offense Siglent employees, insert any Chinese brand there and I feel the same)
They're a big step from CML and ~twice the physical size. To get one fully spec'ed (DC, FG, LA) will cost a lot more but you'd probably never want anything better. Yep, I have a 2304X as my personal unit.
PM me you you want to know more.

I just went back and looked and the model I was talking about that was $800 was a 2 channel, for some reason I had a brain fart yesterday. All the 4 channel models of that series are definitely out of my price range and if I was going to get a 2 channel Siglent I would spend half of $800 and get the 1202X-E. I am not sure why Siglent has a big gap of nothing where a cheap 4 channel model should be to compete with Rigol and Instek.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on July 24, 2017, 07:29:22 am
PS I suggest a four channel model (even if it comes at cost) for two reasons: 1) differential measurements (remember all channels connected to the ground, you cannot just connect probes in arbitrary way) 2) I often have multiple DUTs it's convenient to dedicate, say, channel 4 for quick-n-dirty measurements without disconnecting probes from the main device.

Really the two analog plus one digital channel of the Keysight is fine for my uses, of course ideally I would like a 4 channel model, and I'm looking really hard at the Siglent 2102X which Saelig has on sale for just under $800. I'm just not sure I want to spend that much on a Siglent (no offense Siglent employees, insert any Chinese brand there and I feel the same)
They're a big step from CML and ~twice the physical size. To get one fully spec'ed (DC, FG, LA) will cost a lot more but you'd probably never want anything better. Yep, I have a 2304X as my personal unit.
PM me you you want to know more.

I just went back and looked and the model I was talking about that was $800 was a 2 channel, for some reason I had a brain fart yesterday. All the 4 channel models of that series are definitely out of my price range and if I was going to get a 2 channel Siglent I would spend half of $800 and get the 1202X-E. I am not sure why Siglent has a big gap of nothing where a cheap 4 channel model should be to compete with Rigol and Instek.
Why would they want to if they can do better............but you'll have to wait a little bit.  ;)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: dos on July 24, 2017, 11:43:17 am
Well we've discussed Siglent for a while here in this Keysight thread, but to get back on topic can any owners of this scope give some feedback on it? I would really like to know if it has an intensity graded display because the datasheet makes no mention of it while the DSOX2000 series datasheet does. I know they have the same Megazoom ASIC and a very similar operation so it seems obvious that it would but who knows. I would also like to know how this scope stacks up against other low cost scopes you've used and what you think it's good and bad points are.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on July 24, 2017, 06:55:49 pm
Hi dos,

Yes, it does have an intensity graded display. There's a button for it on the front panel right below the "entry" knob.

If you've used a 2000, 3000, 4000, or 6000 X-Series InfiniiVision oscilloscope you'll feel right at home on the 1000 X-Series.

I'll let other speak to their experience because I know that my word on the matter likely a bit skewed, but I'm always relieved to get back on the 1000 X-Series after playing around with the other low cost oscilloscopes.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TK on July 24, 2017, 09:55:43 pm
I have both the 2000X and the EDUX1002G (1000X) and I love them.  The 1000X looks and feels like a scaled down 2000X.  UI is very responsive and knobs feel the same in both scopes.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: FlyingHacker on July 25, 2017, 02:33:24 am
I have been using this 1000x with the wave gen for a month or two now. Overall I am happy. The probes are a bit lacking (one of them doesn't always snap back to clamp on to things when you pull back the witch's hat). I have other probes, so it is not a major concern, but that is really the biggest complaint.

I really wish I could set the trigger source more easily (front panel button or double tap the channel or something). It requires about three or four presses right now. I am used to analog scopes with a knob or switch to change the trigger source.

Would be nice to be able to set AC/DC coupling with a button. Again, something you take for granted on an analog scope. This is pretty easy on this scope, though. These are some very commonly used features that should be readily accessible, IMO.

The scope is generally quite fast. Though a big FFT will start to make is sluggish like a cheaper scope.

You only seem to be able to display a single reference waveform along with the live waveforms. Ideally you could show both. There is no warning to overwrite a reference waveform, and no undo. It is very easy to accidentally overwrite the last reference waveform you stored. If you ask me the scope should toggle the default write slot from the last saved reference waveform to the other one so that you would be less likely to do this. Perhaps a warning as well.

The grid intensity setting gets reset when you hit the Default Setup button. I need to see if I can save my own settings as the "Default Setup," but I have yet to see that feature. I like the grid much more transparent (8%).

Using this scope is almost as snappy as using an analog scope, in terms of perceived speed. I mean there is no comparison with moving a trace up and down on an analog scope, but it is pretty close.

I do find the rotary encoders have some sort of acceleration that is frequently not quite doing what I want. They are fine for basic features like moving the trace up and down, etc. it is just the interaction when setting mainly numeric values by turning the encoders.

Black or dark grey cases on scopes show dirt less (flux fingers), and make the screen appear more contrasts and easier to read (you watch a movie with the lights off).

Those are my thoughts on the 1000X. Overall I am quite satisfied. I only bring these things up in case perhaps Daniel can add them to some sort of wishlist for firmware updates.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Someone on July 25, 2017, 11:52:25 pm
The scope is generally quite fast. Though a big FFT will start to make is sluggish like a cheaper scope.
I don't think it does "big" FFTs, its limited to 64k points like the other scopes in its range yes? To compare to other popular scopes:

DSOX1000 64k point FFT, 3 updates/second
DS1054Z 64k point FFT, 1 update/second

DSOX1000 1k point FFT, 60 updates/second
DS1054Z 1k point FFT, 3 updates/second
DS4000 1k point FFT, 8 updates/second
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: dos on July 26, 2017, 01:24:49 am
Hi dos,

Yes, it does have an intensity graded display. There's a button for it on the front panel right below the "entry" knob.

Thanks for clearing that up. My Siglent also has an "intensity" control but of course, it only controls the uniform brightness of the entire trace so I thought it might be something like that. Is it 64 levels like the 2000 series? Also, is there a real hardware frequency counter or is it software only like on the 2000 series (pointed out in Dave's review of that model) where you must add it as a measurement and always have it's measurement cursors on the screen when it's active. Basically I'm wondering if there is something like this as I find it useful on my current scope:

(http://i.imgur.com/HKGBmJW.png)

Thanks to everyone who provided feedback, it was helpful.

e:

I really wish I could set the trigger source more easily (front panel button or double tap the channel or something). It requires about three or four presses right now. I am used to analog scopes with a knob or switch to change the trigger source.

This seems to be the case with a lot of digital scopes and I have no idea what's so hard about implementing it in the way you describe. It seems like a no brainer

Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Someone on July 26, 2017, 03:21:10 am
is there a real hardware frequency counter or is it software only like on the 2000 series (pointed out in Dave's review of that model) where you must add it as a measurement and always have it's measurement cursors on the screen when it's active.
There was the ability to unlock the hardware "DVM" which included a 5 digit frequency counter through the DSOXDVM option:
http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2089401-pn-DSOXDVM/integrated-digital-voltmeter-dvm-option-for-infiniivision-x-series-oscilloscopes (http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2089401-pn-DSOXDVM/integrated-digital-voltmeter-dvm-option-for-infiniivision-x-series-oscilloscopes)
That runs on the input signal so it still works even if you've zoomed in or out so far you can't see a repetitive signal on the screen. But thats now free for all the range? The data sheet is a little confusing as it says the hardware counter is enabled standard on the 1000x but I can't see how to view it unless you install the free to download DVM option.

I really wish I could set the trigger source more easily (front panel button or double tap the channel or something). It requires about three or four presses right now. I am used to analog scopes with a knob or switch to change the trigger source.
This seems to be the case with a lot of digital scopes and I have no idea what's so hard about implementing it in the way you describe. It seems like a no brainer
The trigger controls on the 1000x are just a little fiddly, the top level menu has holdoff and HF/Noise reject options but you need to press a soft key to get to the second level menu with simple options like trigger source/type/polarity. So its like they got the menu priority back to front putting the most used controls deeper and the least used controls up front. The larger scopes in the series have separate buttons to get to these two different menu levels which makes them much nicer to use. These are all the little details that a "full" review of the scope would hit on.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on July 26, 2017, 07:43:00 am
The scope is generally quite fast. Though a big FFT will start to make is sluggish like a cheaper scope.
I don't think it does "big" FFTs, its limited to 64k points like the other scopes in its range yes? To compare to other popular scopes:

DSOX1000 64k point FFT, 3 updates/second
DS1054Z 64k point FFT, 1 update/second

DSOX1000 1k point FFT, 60 updates/second
DS1054Z 1k point FFT, 3 updates/second
DS4000 1k point FFT, 8 updates/second
GW Intek GDS1054B: 1Mpts FFT about 2 to 3 updates/second. At shorter memory depths it gets much faster.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: FlyingHacker on July 26, 2017, 04:45:33 pm
The scope is generally quite fast. Though a big FFT will start to make is sluggish like a cheaper scope.
I don't think it does "big" FFTs, its limited to 64k points like the other scopes in its range yes? To compare to other popular scopes:

DSOX1000 64k point FFT, 3 updates/second
DS1054Z 64k point FFT, 1 update/second

DSOX1000 1k point FFT, 60 updates/second
DS1054Z 1k point FFT, 3 updates/second
DS4000 1k point FFT, 8 updates/second

Wow! I would hate to use a scope with 1 update per Second! That is so sluggish to attempt to adjust anything. Even the 3 updates/sec is the little bit of lag I was complaining about.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: MrW0lf on July 26, 2017, 06:05:18 pm
Yess, contest time! Me too, mee too :box:

2 x 2MPoint FFT + 2 x peak freq. auto detection @ 2Hz:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-keysight-scope-1st-march-2017/?action=dlattach;attach=335469)

Edit: Also tested simple case of 1MPoint FFT + 1 x peak freq. auto detection: 9Hz
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: FlyingHacker on July 26, 2017, 10:06:05 pm
This is a Keysight thread, but does that Pico scope do the FFT on the computer CPU? Also, what does it cost?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Someone on July 27, 2017, 01:50:33 am
The scope is generally quite fast. Though a big FFT will start to make is sluggish like a cheaper scope.
I don't think it does "big" FFTs, its limited to 64k points like the other scopes in its range yes? To compare to other popular scopes:

DSOX1000 64k point FFT, 3 updates/second
DS1054Z 64k point FFT, 1 update/second

DSOX1000 1k point FFT, 60 updates/second
DS1054Z 1k point FFT, 3 updates/second
DS4000 1k point FFT, 8 updates/second

Wow! I would hate to use a scope with 1 update per Second! That is so sluggish to attempt to adjust anything. Even the 3 updates/sec is the little bit of lag I was complaining about.
But unlike some other  scopes all the controls continue working quickly, the other traces update quickly, its only the FFT or math traces that are updating slowly.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: MrW0lf on July 27, 2017, 06:37:03 am
This is a Keysight thread, but does that Pico scope do the FFT on the computer CPU? Also, what does it cost?

Most scopes need to be used indoors. What does having a nice warm room cost? Or even worse, what does it cost to buy lab playing time from wife? Overall this was just to show that there is different approach migrated from high-end gear that is better for certain (processing intensive) tasks. But yea, if want max amount of knobs for min amount of money need get back to discussing chinese scopes :)
BTW Looking at Keysight website all their high-end stuff (9000+) is running Windows 7 which implies some pulses and some limitations also (only 1,000 wfms/s on DSOZ634A) compared to even their own mid-range/low-end gear.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: MrW0lf on July 27, 2017, 06:50:06 am
But unlike some other  scopes all the controls continue working quickly, the other traces update quickly, its only the FFT or math traces that are updating slowly.

What happens if press STOP? Will calculate based on last trace or leave as is?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on July 27, 2017, 07:08:16 am
If the 1000 X-Series scope is stopped, the FFT will continue to be calculated on whatever is displayed on the screen. So, if you move waveforms around post-capture, it'll recalculate the FFT.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: FlyingHacker on July 27, 2017, 08:38:13 pm
This is a Keysight thread, but does that Pico scope do the FFT on the computer CPU? Also, what does it cost?

Most scopes need to be used indoors. What does having a nice warm room cost? Or even worse, what does it cost to buy lab playing time from wife? Overall this was just to show that there is different approach migrated from high-end gear that is better for certain (processing intensive) tasks. But yea, if want max amount of knobs for min amount of money need get back to discussing chinese scopes :)
BTW Looking at Keysight website all their high-end stuff (9000+) is running Windows 7 which implies some pulses and some limitations also (only 1,000 wfms/s on DSOZ634A) compared to even their own mid-range/low-end gear.

That wasn't meant to denigrate USB scopes. Just curious how that one worked, and what it cost.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: MrW0lf on July 27, 2017, 10:45:21 pm
That wasn't meant to denigrate USB scopes. Just curious how that one worked, and what it cost.

Ok :) thought bashing again because some think that USB ones are stuck in times when triggering was done in software etc horrors. Sent PM with some info not to clutter here.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: synthRodriguez on November 03, 2017, 07:36:52 pm
My lovely Made-In-China Keysight DSOX1102A just died. It powers on. The buttons light up and then it hangs, no display. No secret Ctrl-Alt-Del key code on power-on reset for this one according to the representative.

Was purchased new through TransCat in July, so it lasted 4 months. Fortunately under warranty.

Have you ever tried to get something returned under warranty at Keysight? You have to send them a utility bill or bank statement to prove you actually live where you're telling them, and then it's 2 business days to get you in the system before you can even START the return process.  |O

I bought it because I wanted to, you know, "Scrap the toys, and get a real oscilloscope." Breaking out the 10-year old Tektronix EDU scope that actually works.

My first and last Keysight product.



Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on November 03, 2017, 08:42:30 pm
I'm sorry to hear that, but let's not get too carried away.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: EEVblog on November 03, 2017, 08:54:38 pm
Have you ever tried to get something returned under warranty at Keysight? You have to send them a utility bill or bank statement to prove you actually live where you're telling them

 :--
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TK on November 03, 2017, 09:19:13 pm
Have you ever tried to get something returned under warranty at Keysight? You have to send them a utility bill or bank statement to prove you actually live where you're telling them, and then it's 2 business days to get you in the system before you can even START the return process.  |O
I used the Keysight warranty service last month and they just asked me for my address to include the information on their database, They did not ask for a utility bill or any proof.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on November 03, 2017, 09:27:14 pm
My lovely Made-In-China Keysight DSOX1102A just died. It powers on. The buttons light up and then it hangs, no display. No secret Ctrl-Alt-Del key code on power-on reset for this one according to the representative.

Was purchased new through TransCat in July, so it lasted 4 months.
And why wouldn't you just let TransCat handle all the warranty stuff ?  :-//
Did they direct you to go to KS directly ?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: bitseeker on November 03, 2017, 11:05:27 pm
Have you ever tried to get something returned under warranty at Keysight? You have to send them a utility bill or bank statement to prove you actually live where you're telling them, and then it's 2 business days to get you in the system before you can even START the return process.  |O

Odd. I've sent devices to Keysight on two different occasions. They didn't ask for such proof.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Svuppe on November 04, 2017, 01:40:26 pm
Have you ever tried to get something returned under warranty at Keysight? You have to send them a utility bill or bank statement to prove you actually live where you're telling them, and then it's 2 business days to get you in the system before you can even START the return process.  |O

Wow, never heard of that before.
I had my DSOX2024A repaired under warranty once. All it took was a phonecall to my local distributor. They emailed me a form I had to fill out (name, address, phone, serial number and error description). I emailed it back, printed a copy and sent it with the scope. All within an hour. Quick and painless.
Got the repaired scope back within two weeks.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on November 06, 2017, 09:35:47 pm

Have you ever tried to get something returned under warranty at Keysight? You have to send them a utility bill or bank statement to prove you actually live where you're telling them, and then it's 2 business days to get you in the system before you can even START the return process.  |O


First off, sorry to hear your scope died! Second, this seems a bit ridiculous to me, could you please let me know who you're talking with at Keysight so I can get things squared away. I've never heard anything like this (proof of residence, etc.).

I'll send you a PM.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: insine on November 29, 2017, 12:23:51 am
Playing with my DSOX1102G I just found out that both zoom and serial decode do not work in roll mode (even when stopped).
It is quite disappointing because I use those features a lot on my Tektronix at work.

Is it true also for 2000X and 3000X models, or only 1000X is crippled this way?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 29, 2017, 12:29:09 am
Playing with my DSOX1102G I just found out that both zoom and serial decode do not work in roll mode (even when stopped).
It is quite disappointing because I use those features a lot on my Tektronix at work.

Is it true also for 2000X and 3000X models, or only 1000X is crippled this way?
I wouldn't expect those functions to work in roll mode.I imagine they didn't think it was worth implementing. Roll mode is usually too slow for decodes to be useful.
Compared to the Agilent 6000, one thing I noticed that's worse on on the 3000X is that at slow timebase settings, turning on decodes stops the realtime screen update, i.e. it only updates (trace and decode) when a full screen as been captured, not continuously as the trace moves across the screen. 
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: insine on November 29, 2017, 12:49:51 am
Roll mode is usually too slow for decodes to be useful.

The way I often like to work is to go into roll mode and manually stop scope when I capture some events, then I zoom in into area of interest and examine waveforms and decodes.

BTW, I never understood why only Tektronix automatically switches to roll mode in slow time bases, now I guess it is because other scopes have limited capabilities in this mode.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: tautech on November 29, 2017, 02:54:20 am
Roll mode is usually too slow for decodes to be useful.

The way I often like to work is to go into roll mode and manually stop scope when I capture some events, then I zoom in into area of interest and examine waveforms and decodes.

BTW, I never understood why only Tektronix automatically switches to roll mode in slow time bases, now I guess it is because other scopes have limited capabilities in this mode.
This is when it is good to have a Roll mode you can toggle ON or OFF so that Decode can work in/with slow timebases.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on November 29, 2017, 10:11:06 am
BTW, I never understood why only Tektronix automatically switches to roll mode in slow time bases, now I guess it is because other scopes have limited capabilities in this mode.
I would never want a scope to switch to roll mode automatically (as some Chinese ones do), you want it to go to a trace sweeping across the screen like old analogue scopes did.
If you want roll mode, you select it explicitly - Roll mode typically doesn't do any triggering so has different applications.
Something I noticed when playing with the Tek MSO58 is that I could not get it to do the "sweeping" display at low timebases, and couldn't convince the Tek guy why this was a problem. They hadn't yet implemented roll mode, so could have been connected to this.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: David Hess on November 30, 2017, 12:06:07 pm
My ancient Tektronix DSOs including the oldest DSO I think is worth considering either have a dedicated latching pushbutton on the front to select between scan and roll mode at low time/div settings or remember the menu configuration.  Someone thought having both was important enough in 1986 to take up space on the front panel.

It boggles me that manufacturers would throw out this major reason for even having digital storage.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: nctnico on November 30, 2017, 05:26:49 pm
On modern DSOs I have seen that you can  select between roll and regular mode by setting the trigger to auto (roll) or to normal mode.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: skander36 on December 04, 2017, 08:10:33 pm

FWIW, that spec is "per channel." Still, a memory increase is something that I'm pushing. If it happens, it'll probably be free.

For live debugging, it's less of an irritation, but for capturing & analyzing it could show up more.

Hi Daniel ,
Still pushing on this ?
This distorted waveforms are a consequence of memory shortage ?
https://youtu.be/nKx_7KWnzSg

Best regards ,

 Later Edit - Both scopes are feed from one source single cable , T adapter , 50 ohms terminator .
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on December 04, 2017, 08:14:19 pm
The Keysight scope is doing 50 kSa/s
The Siglent is doing 1 MSa/s
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: skander36 on December 04, 2017, 08:31:19 pm
So ...

(My target was to accumulate 1 s on both scopes ).
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: David Hess on December 04, 2017, 08:43:17 pm
Hi Daniel ,
Still pushing on this ?
This distorted waveforms are a consequence of memory shortage ?

I cannot tell what the video is trying to show because of the LOUD <EXPLETIVE DELETED> MUSIC!
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: ebastler on December 04, 2017, 08:48:28 pm
Hi Daniel ,
Still pushing on this ?
This distorted waveforms are a consequence of memory shortage ?

I cannot tell what the video is trying to show because of the LOUD <EXPLETIVE DELETED> MUSIC!

I think skander was trying to acoustically illustrate "distorted waveforms".  :P
(Or trying to induce memory shortage in the viewer?)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: skander36 on December 04, 2017, 08:54:20 pm
Hi Daniel ,
Still pushing on this ?
This distorted waveforms are a consequence of memory shortage ?

I cannot tell what the video is trying to show because of the LOUD <EXPLETIVE DELETED> MUSIC!

It is a video . For eyes , you know . Just hit the mute button if it's too loud . Mute button is the speaker icon. Music is to cover ambient noise .  :palm:

Ok ! Music was removed  ::)
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on December 05, 2017, 06:35:22 am
Yes, this is a memory thing. Any scope will do this if you zoom out far enough, but the point at which it happens is a function of sample rate and memory depth.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: JPortici on December 05, 2017, 07:17:22 am
I'll give you a hint too:
you were trying to sample a 50 MHz waveform at a 50 kHz sample rate with the keysight and at a 1 MHz Sample rate with the siglent.
if that doesn't tell you something...

the other interesting thing, which you can learn from, is that the siglent still was able to resolve a squarish wave, which is of course bogus because the frequency counter in the upper right of the screen is still displaying 50 MHz, the measurement instead would have told you the signal frequency was jumping. why? because the hardware counter/dvm are independent from the sampling system.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: skander36 on December 05, 2017, 07:59:01 am
Yes, this is a memory thing. Any scope will do this if you zoom out far enough, but the point at which it happens is a function of sample rate and memory depth.
Thanks !
I was not sure , because on Siglent I reduced the memory to 14K (7 times smaller than 100k on EDUX) and waveforms seems still  recognizable . But maybe at deeper zoom levels it doesn't take account about my settings , something like Keysight do with automatic memory allocation .
About 1Mpts. of memory ? Not even as paid option ?
100 MHz upgrade option is not possible on EDUX because of hw. differences , but memory is just a software limitation .
There is so much power not used in this scope . Siglent approach using Zinq 7020 in "SoC style" is not even close ...
https://youtu.be/9YRMRn9RM74
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: skander36 on December 05, 2017, 08:04:45 am
I'll give you a hint too:
you were trying to sample a 50 MHz waveform at a 50 kHz sample rate with the keysight and at a 1 MHz Sample rate with the siglent.
if that doesn't tell you something...

the other interesting thing, which you can learn from, is that the siglent still was able to resolve a squarish wave, which is of course bogus because the frequency counter in the upper right of the screen is still displaying 50 MHz, the measurement instead would have told you the signal frequency was jumping. why? because the hardware counter/dvm are independent from the sampling system.
I can choose sample rate only by minimize time captured . I cannot choose manually . But how can I do when I have to capture 1s or 500 micros ?
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: rf-loop on December 05, 2017, 08:54:36 am
I'll give you a hint too:
you were trying to sample a 50 MHz waveform at a 50 kHz sample rate with the keysight and at a 1 MHz Sample rate with the siglent.
if that doesn't tell you something...

the other interesting thing, which you can learn from, is that the siglent still was able to resolve a squarish wave, which is of course bogus because the frequency counter in the upper right of the screen is still displaying 50 MHz, the measurement instead would have told you the signal frequency was jumping. why? because the hardware counter/dvm are independent from the sampling system.
I can choose sample rate only by minimize time captured . I cannot choose manually . But how can I do when I have to capture 1s or 500 micros ?

Your video in Reply #834 on: Yesterday at 04:10:33 PM  is totally junk. If you do not know anythjing about signals and how oscilloscopes work please tell it to readers and watchers that this all is just for fun and story wjhat happend without any knowledge about things.

Your siglent trigger counter show 50MHz.
With Siglent you are sampling this signal with 1Msa/s.  Then scope show some kind of squarish waveform on the dislay. After then in stop mode you zoom in this captured alias. What you think. Yuu want teach us what is aliasing (if your signal is 50MHz as counter tell, or is it wrong) If you try to tell how oscilloscope display can fool peoples who do not understand anything what they are doing, why you do not tell it.

With Keysight situation is even more bad due to even more low samplerate.

Then reply 842, this FFT
(facts. Keysight FFT length is max 64k and Siglent max 1M)

What are you thinking or what you want show. Only what you now show is that you do not know how to use FFT (least in Siglent)

Do you think this kind of playing is something useful.

Perhaps this is some kind of humor but I do not regognize its genre. Is it some sort of satire or self-irony?

If you try some kind comparison of devices - well it do nowt work like this at all.

Do not take seriously but is it better that before you publish this kind of things you give "bullshit" warning somehow to readers. Here is also noobs watching these and all do not have enough knowledge for self filtering bullshits.


Try these with Keysight.

Signal 50MHz.  1st level 0dBm and after then 50MHz carrier AM mod 50% with 1.2kHz and carrier level -10dBm.


These last two you can not do at all with Keysight. There is no enough resolution for measure 50MHz 1.2kHz AM modulation so that you can also separate side bands and measure them. In this place can say: Scrap the Toys, Get a Real Oscilloscope.
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: skander36 on December 05, 2017, 09:21:37 am
Hi ,
I don't want to teach anyone .
Just show some facts .
IMHO I think that is good to show that , despite the biased opinions ...
Beside of your personal opinion about my experience maybe you put an explanation about what and why is happening .
Anyway thank you for your appreciations about me .

Best regards .
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: cgroen on December 05, 2017, 09:56:47 am
Hi ,
I don't want to teach anyone .
Just show some facts .
IMHO I think that is good to show that , despite the biased opinions ...
Beside of your personal opinion about my experience maybe you put an explanation about what and why is happening .
Anyway thank you for your appreciations about me .

Best regards .

"show some facts" ??
.....When you compare, don't compare apples and oranges with each other...
Simple math, nothing "strange" with what you have seen....
Title: Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
Post by: rf-loop on December 05, 2017, 10:29:51 am
Hi ,
I don't want to teach anyone .
Just show some facts .
IMHO I think that is good to show that , despite the biased opinions ...
Beside of your personal opinion about my experience maybe you put an explanation about what and why is happening .
Anyway thank you for your appreciations about me .

Best regards .

Facts about what?