Author Topic: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017  (Read 155699 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12027
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #525 on: March 03, 2017, 01:08:20 pm »
hi daniel, anything regarding the actual capabilities of EXT as a digital channel?
can it be used for something more than doing /CS in spi? (only time it's mentioned in either the videos and the manual)
other decode inputs?
i.e: can we do miso/mosi/sck in spi (and end packet with timeout. makes perfect sense)
i.e: can we do ANALOG CH1, ANALOG CH2/DECODE, EXT. DIGITAL/DECODE?
..or display it as a single digital channel ? That would be really useful.
Some old analogue 2-ch scopes had a "trig view" function to give 3 traces

I did some playing around, and I'm able to assign the external trigger as a source for decoding. It basically acts as a bonus single digital channel.
Can it be used as a general-purpose extra trace ( that you trigger from, obviously) ?

Just received a unit to play with - Thanks Daniel.

The answer is yes, the trigger channel can be used as a third, digital channel, and it does NOT have to trigger from that channel, e.g. you can trigger off channel 1, and show 2 analogue channels and third digital channel.
Input range is +/-1.6 or +/-8V, with adjustable threshold.

One initial surprise is the timebase knob is not detented - seems an odd decision ( Y knobs are)

Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 
The following users thanked this post: TheSteve

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12027
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #526 on: March 03, 2017, 01:11:58 pm »
And it has the Star Trek screensaver
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 
The following users thanked this post: kilobyte

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12027
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #527 on: March 03, 2017, 01:18:34 pm »
Re. the query on SPI decode. You can frame by a configurable CS timeout, so you can display either
1) CS, CLK and either MISO or MOSI
2) CLK, MISO and MISO

This should cover most use cases.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline Orange

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 292
  • Country: nl
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #528 on: March 03, 2017, 03:12:30 pm »
hi daniel, anything regarding the actual capabilities of EXT as a digital channel?
can it be used for something more than doing /CS in spi? (only time it's mentioned in either the videos and the manual)
other decode inputs?
i.e: can we do miso/mosi/sck in spi (and end packet with timeout. makes perfect sense)
i.e: can we do ANALOG CH1, ANALOG CH2/DECODE, EXT. DIGITAL/DECODE?
..or display it as a single digital channel ? That would be really useful.
Some old analogue 2-ch scopes had a "trig view" function to give 3 traces

I did some playing around, and I'm able to assign the external trigger as a source for decoding. It basically acts as a bonus single digital channel.
Can it be used as a general-purpose extra trace ( that you trigger from, obviously) ?

Just received a unit to play with - Thanks Daniel.

The answer is yes, the trigger channel can be used as a third, digital channel, and it does NOT have to trigger from that channel, e.g. you can trigger off channel 1, and show 2 analogue channels and third digital channel.
Input range is +/-1.6 or +/-8V, with adjustable threshold.

One initial surprise is the timebase knob is not detented - seems an odd decision ( Y knobs are)
It's probably an assembly error, if not then this is really bad.

Anyhow, this scoop is not for me; Power supply uses bad unknown CAPS ,pricing is really ridiculous here in Europe, I don't like the way how Keysight has implemented the constant display of the menu on the right side, it contains redundant information also displayed on top and bottom.
How is the noise on the channels ? look like very noisy from Dave his first video.
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10102
  • Country: 00
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #529 on: March 03, 2017, 03:16:13 pm »
The answer is yes, the trigger channel can be used as a third, digital channel, and it does NOT have to trigger from that channel, e.g. you can trigger off channel 1, and show 2 analogue channels and third digital channel.

It it shown on screen as a third trace?

 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12027
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #530 on: March 03, 2017, 03:38:54 pm »
The answer is yes, the trigger channel can be used as a third, digital channel, and it does NOT have to trigger from that channel, e.g. you can trigger off channel 1, and show 2 analogue channels and third digital channel.

It it shown on screen as a third trace?

Yes. This channel can be used just like a 1-channel MSO - you don't even need to be using it for trigger - the ext input is just another input when selecting trigger or decode signal sources.

Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12027
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #531 on: March 03, 2017, 03:42:56 pm »
One disappointing omission, no Nth edge burst trigger mode.

Also segmented seems to be limited to 50 segments on the DSOX1102 - I previously though this was a limitation on the low memory EDUX version. Seems an unnecessarily arbitary limitation.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline rf-loop

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3069
  • Country: cn
  • Starting with DLL21
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #532 on: March 03, 2017, 03:59:53 pm »
One disappointing omission, no Nth edge burst trigger mode.

Also segmented seems to be limited to 50 segments on the DSOX1102 - I previously though this was a limitation on the low memory EDUX version. Seems an unnecessarily arbitary limitation.

EDUX do not have segmented at all.


Can you measure segmented max speed (segment/s.)
Just using segments time stamps or count trigger out pulses speed


But if think it as "school scope"  also wwith it students can learn what is this mode in principle.
Also this talk its own story that this is just toy for serious use but perhaps useful in classroom if they build also good ready learning / teaching support material.



 



If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12027
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #533 on: March 03, 2017, 04:02:55 pm »
Inside the box is a printed EULA.  Contains all the usual crap and looks like it was cut & pasted from a software product.

But utterly pointless as there is no way anyone can prove you even saw it. or even that it was in the box.

"By powering on and using the instrument or machine you agree that you have read, understood, and agree to be bound by the terms of the EULA"

I can't see how this could possibly deemed to be enforceable in any jurisdiciton, even one as messed up as the USA, unless you actually admit to have read it.


Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12027
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #534 on: March 03, 2017, 04:11:36 pm »
Also they seem to have forgotten to include in the box any reference to the free DVM option after registering ( or any information on registering) - mine had a handwritten business card in the box mentioning it !

The datasheet tells you to go here : http://www.keysight.com/find/1000X-Series-DVM
which then asks for an email address & name, which it does not check, before letting you download a file, and  does not ask for the scope serial number
The file includes a serial number though, with a US manufacturer code. Wonder if this works with other options  :-//
Quote
<Licenses xmlns="http://www.agilent.com/schemas/SoftwareLicensing/License">
  <License>
    <LicenseId>22e870ca-9045-40a1-ba81-8f1f4b8caa44</LicenseId>
    <ModelNumber>DSOX1102A</ModelNumber>
    <SerialNumber>US56240016</SerialNumber>
    <FeatureName>digVoltMeter</FeatureName>
    <FeatureVersion>0</FeatureVersion>
    <!--license does not expire-->
    <Signature>FQ7oGZP4U+cy2JKLdASC/t+w9sC0p3bBvlTxCtZfmCmuT7uGfug/UAzQdLTrdLSi/eWwxl5kHGpW2h9+59wJxTwlOLv/gZwcjP1vM35gCya9XD4si+7Jj3vbl64F4jzMukSZtuHXR6RYIVBUcMM+kooy7fzppk8jBok2R9E2gFA=</Signature>
  </License>
</Licenses>

"registering" with a differemt set of details produces an identical file.

Something else : the 'Counter' measure option is greyed out for no obvious reason.

Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12027
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #535 on: March 03, 2017, 04:19:34 pm »
Something else : the 'Counter' measure option is greyed out for no obvious reason.
OK figured this out - counter doesn't work when trigger mode is serial - greyed in menu and shows "no signal" if already enabled. No mention of this in the manual.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline hgjdwx

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 72
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #536 on: March 03, 2017, 04:32:00 pm »
hi daniel, anything regarding the actual capabilities of EXT as a digital channel?
can it be used for something more than doing /CS in spi? (only time it's mentioned in either the videos and the manual)
other decode inputs?
i.e: can we do miso/mosi/sck in spi (and end packet with timeout. makes perfect sense)
i.e: can we do ANALOG CH1, ANALOG CH2/DECODE, EXT. DIGITAL/DECODE?
..or display it as a single digital channel ? That would be really useful.
Some old analogue 2-ch scopes had a "trig view" function to give 3 traces

I did some playing around, and I'm able to assign the external trigger as a source for decoding. It basically acts as a bonus single digital channel.
Can it be used as a general-purpose extra trace ( that you trigger from, obviously) ?

Just received a unit to play with - Thanks Daniel.

The answer is yes, the trigger channel can be used as a third, digital channel, and it does NOT have to trigger from that channel, e.g. you can trigger off channel 1, and show 2 analogue channels and third digital channel.
Input range is +/-1.6 or +/-8V, with adjustable threshold.

One initial surprise is the timebase knob is not detented - seems an odd decision ( Y knobs are)

Can PK with your TO1104  :clap:
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12027
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #537 on: March 03, 2017, 04:35:44 pm »
Can you measure segmented max speed (segment/s.)
Edge triggering on a 1MHz signal at 100ns/div, the timestamps show 19uS between segments

Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 
The following users thanked this post: rf-loop

Offline ebastler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3018
  • Country: de
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #538 on: March 03, 2017, 04:51:39 pm »
[...] segmented seems to be limited to 50 segments on the DSOX1102 - I previously though this was a limitation on the low memory EDUX version. Seems an unnecessarily arbitary limitation.

EDUX do not have segmented at all.
[...]
But if think it as "school scope"  also wwith it students can learn what is this mode in principle.
Also this talk its own story that this is just toy for serious use but perhaps useful in classroom if they build also good ready learning / teaching support material.

If the 50 segment memory were meant for classroom use, why would it be missing entirely the EDUX version?

That does not seem to make sense. I think the segmented memory is meant for "productive" use, but Keysight used it as one of many deliberate constraints, to ensure that the 1000X series does not get too close to their high-end scopes, so they can continue to justify the high-end prices.

Edit: typo...
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 05:18:50 pm by ebastler »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12027
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #539 on: March 03, 2017, 04:58:10 pm »
I don't think it's unreasonable to omit segmented in an educational scope. Education users aren't likely to get into the level of complexity that needs it, and it could cause confusion as when enabled it causes the scope to behave in a somewhat different way.

My comment earlier was based on my mis-reading that the 50 segs was tied to the 100ksamp memory.

Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline RGB255_0_0

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 774
  • Country: gb
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #540 on: March 03, 2017, 06:51:07 pm »
And it has the Star Trek screensaver
That screensaver is handy because if there's a dead/stuck pixel you'd just assume it was a star.
Your toaster just set fire to an African child over TCP.
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16169
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #541 on: March 03, 2017, 07:09:36 pm »
I don't think it's unreasonable to omit segmented in an educational scope. Education users aren't likely to get into the level of complexity that needs it, and it could cause confusion as when enabled it causes the scope to behave in a somewhat different way.


Really ?  :-//

Where are students going to learn about these features otherwise ?
A taste of features that are implemented in real DSO's in not a bad thing.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2560
  • Country: it
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #542 on: March 03, 2017, 07:26:05 pm »
Re. the query on SPI decode. You can frame by a configurable CS timeout, so you can display either
1) CS, CLK and either MISO or MOSI
2) CLK, MISO and MISO

This should cover most use cases.
nice.
I'm glad this was finally answered.
I'm making a chart of 2 channel scopes (for my and maybe others benefit, choosing a new scope for home lab.)
 

Offline Neganur

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1114
  • Country: fi
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #543 on: March 03, 2017, 08:21:50 pm »
I don't think it's unreasonable to omit segmented in an educational scope. Education users aren't likely to get into the level of complexity that needs it, and it could cause confusion as when enabled it causes the scope to behave in a somewhat different way.


Really ?  :-//

Where are students going to learn about these features otherwise ?
A taste of features that are implemented in real DSO's in not a bad thing.

I haven't actually once received formal education, at any of the universities I went to, on how to use an oscilloscope or beyond that it plots voltage over time. Not that they didn't have scopes (Tektronix, Yokogawa, HP and later InfiniiVision 2000X) it's just not in the curriculum.

It was primarily hobby use and vocational education after secondary school (radio technician) and places like EEVblog or Agilent's application notes/webcasts that inspired to read up on measurement techniques.
Having one in front of your nose at home is probably the best learning experience.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 09:21:16 pm by Neganur »
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29889
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #544 on: March 03, 2017, 10:46:49 pm »
One initial surprise is the timebase knob is not detented - seems an odd decision ( Y knobs are)
It's probably an assembly error, if not then this is really bad.

Mine has detents.

Quote
I don't like the way how Keysight has implemented the constant display of the menu on the right side, it contains redundant information also displayed on top and bottom.

That is how the megazoon IV ASIC works, it maps the display for fast updating. Same with all scopes that use that chip.

Quote
How is the noise on the channels ? look like very noisy from Dave his first video.

It's because the updating is fast.



 

Offline Jono427

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 38
  • Country: us
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #545 on: March 03, 2017, 11:20:19 pm »
Re. the query on SPI decode. You can frame by a configurable CS timeout, so you can display either
1) CS, CLK and either MISO or MOSI
2) CLK, MISO and MISO

This should cover most use cases.
nice.
I'm glad this was finally answered.
I'm making a chart of 2 channel scopes (for my and maybe others benefit, choosing a new scope for home lab.)

I would take a look if you finish it.  Probably looking at about the same scopes if you are looking at this one.  Currently working on parts and equipment lists while I plan and start to build a bench area.
 

Offline snoopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 639
  • Country: au
    • Analog Precision
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #546 on: March 03, 2017, 11:32:56 pm »
Yeah, and it's "funny" (or pathetic) how they in the Keysight vs Tek document have included memory depth while conveniently leaving it out on the Keysight vs Rigol document.  :=\

Jeez the scope wars are really getting dirty now :(

What about comparing the number of channels  ? That seems to be an obvious oversight !

And what's with keysight scopes always deriving measurements from the display data instead of the acquisition memory ? Seems to be a serious short coming of their megazoom hardware ?



« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 12:09:54 am by snoopy »
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17862
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #547 on: March 04, 2017, 12:03:10 am »
And what's with keysight scopes always deriving measurements from the display data instead of the acquisition memory ? Seems to be a serious short coming of their megazoom hardware ?
Calling Dr W0lf to the ER... Calling Dr W0lf to the ER...  :scared:
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline ebastler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3018
  • Country: de
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #548 on: March 04, 2017, 12:05:08 am »
Jeez the scope wars are really getting dirty now :(

I wonder who produced that video highlighting the advantage of the Tek regarding measurements from the acquisition memory?  ::)
Ahh, wait -- the closing credits gave it away! Who would have thought...

But because Tek have never been nown to be a dirty competitor, I am sure they have plenty of videos hightlighting the weaknesses of Tek scopes.  ;)
 

Offline snoopy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 639
  • Country: au
    • Analog Precision
Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #549 on: March 04, 2017, 12:14:48 am »
Jeez the scope wars are really getting dirty now :(

I wonder who produced that video highlighting the advantage of the Tek regarding measurements from the acquisition memory?  ::)
Ahh, wait -- the closing credits gave it away! Who would have thought...

But because Tek have never been nown to be a dirty competitor, I am sure they have plenty of videos hightlighting the weaknesses of Tek scopes.  ;)

They do !! Here's another one. Fair point too. That '>=' sign in the measurements on keysight scopes doesn't instill to much confidence IMO. Sure not going to go down too well in edu institutes which rely on good measurements for the purposes of teaching and training  :( Me thinks that keysight could easily derive measurements from acquisition memory instead of display memory but that would have to be done in software and slow the whole thing down just like it does in the Tek scopes ;)

« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 12:17:58 am by snoopy »
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf