Author Topic: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017  (Read 166638 times)

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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #675 on: April 08, 2017, 06:28:44 pm »
Are there any soft carrying cases and front panel covers compatible with the new InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series?
Yes but rather expensive - probably better to go to your local luggage shop & look for something the right size

http://uk.farnell.com/keysight-technologies/n2738a/carry-case-soft-1000-series/dp/2214959
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Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #676 on: April 26, 2017, 07:04:06 pm »
It's a pity that Keysight did not include a 16 channel logic analyzer in this scope.
This would have made it a modern version of the HP54645D.

Really a missed opportunity IMO as everybody needs a logic analyzer these days.
Looks like we have to complement it with an Analog Discovery :)

HP engineers knew this already back in 1997. Where did they loose it?
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97.htm

This confirms again that newer is not always better!

Back then HP engineers were proud on the products they built. And they documented all their technological achievements in their own HP Journal. The engineers got names, and they got personal recognition within the company.

Keysight engineers should read back the old HP Journals! But they probably don't even know about their existence.
 

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #677 on: April 26, 2017, 07:19:11 pm »
Back then HP engineers were proud on the products they built. And they documented all their technological achievements in their own HP Journal. The engineers got names, and they got personal recognition within the company.

Keysight engineers should read back the old HP Journals! But they probably don't even know about their existence.

The majority of the engineers that worked on the 1000 X-Series have been around since HP days, and we're very proud of our scope!
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #678 on: April 26, 2017, 08:31:01 pm »
Did you really read the first and second paragraph from the provided HP Journal link?

Back in 1997 already (which is 20 years ago for the record), HP engineers wrote that a scope without a logic analyzer isn't doing the job anymore for testing electronic systems designed in the nineties.

We are now 20 years later, so how could a scope without a logic analyzer do the job now in 2017 for testing electronic systems that have further evolved over a period of 20 years?

HP engineers knew this already back in 1997. Where did they loose it?
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97.htm

Please check the first and second paragraph of the link above.

The 1000 X-Series should have been a modern version of the HP54645D.



HP product released in 1997 (20 years ago):

The Keysight 54645D 100-MHz 200-MSa/s Mixed Signal Oscilloscope seamlessly integrates logic channels into an oscilloscope to offer new measurement capability for designers of combined analog and digital systems. Analog and digital on one display, aligned in time, to help you isolate cause and effect in complex circuits.

New measurement capability in 1997. Which now is not there anymore in 2017? Really?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 09:12:11 pm by pascal_sweden »
 

Offline serggio

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #679 on: April 26, 2017, 08:47:51 pm »
Did you really read the first and second paragraph from the provided HP Journal link?

Back in 1997 already (which is 20 years ago for the record), HP engineers wrote that a scope without a logic analyzer isn't doing the job anymore for testing electronic systems designed in the nineties.
Logic analyzer this is add ons to scope. This is not scope task, this is not measurement. This is just analyzing. DSOX1000 series can analyze serial bus, moreover ;) Keysight have HW decoding serial buses, Need more? Just need to be ready pay for more lines decoding.
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #680 on: April 26, 2017, 08:49:00 pm »
I did end up ordering the HMO1002 over the DSOX1102A for that reason, as it was the same price on their webshop. Turns out it wasn't the same price after all.. they cancelled my order and wanted to add $200 on top.. and their logic probe is $450 .. nope...  :palm:

I think the DSOX will do instead, logic analyzer is best on the PC anyway.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 08:52:12 pm by TheAmmoniacal »
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Offline ebastler

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #681 on: April 26, 2017, 09:17:25 pm »
It's a pity that Keysight did not include a 16 channel logic analyzer in this scope.
This would have made it a modern version of the HP54645D.

Really a missed opportunity IMO as everybody needs a logic analyzer these days.
Looks like we have to complement it with an Analog Discovery :)

HP engineers knew this already back in 1997. Where did they loose it?
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97.htm

This confirms again that newer is not always better!

Back then HP engineers were proud on the products they built. And they documented all their technological achievements in their own HP Journal. The engineers got names, and they got personal recognition within the company.

Keysight engineers should read back the old HP Journals! But they probably don't even know about their existence.

Huh? Didn't you post that same comment a month ago?
Can't find it in the forum archives, though...

What's going on - I feel trapped in a time warp?!  ???
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #682 on: April 26, 2017, 09:24:11 pm »
The 1000 X-Series should have been a modern version of the HP54645D.
From memory when I bought my 54645D when it was fairly recently released, I think it was about three and a half grand.
The 2000X series is more comparable.
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Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #683 on: April 26, 2017, 09:45:44 pm »
Let's compare all the 100 MHz entry level scopes from HP/Agilent/Keysight over the years:

1997: HP54645D: 100 MHz, 2+16 channels
2011: MSOX2012A: 100 MHz, 2+8 channels
2017: DSOX1102G: 100 MHz, 2+0 channels

Evolutionary approach? From 16 to 0 digital channels!
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 09:50:08 pm by pascal_sweden »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #684 on: April 26, 2017, 09:52:18 pm »
Evolutionary approach? From 16 to 0 digital channels!

1997: HP54645D: 100 MHz, 2+16 channels
2011: MSOX2012A: 100 MHz, 2+8 channels
2017: DSOX1102G: 100 MHz, 2+0 channels
MSOX3012 100MHz, 16+2 channels. Same price as 54645D when it was released.

There were also cheaper non-MSO models when the 54645D came out. Just as there are now.


 
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Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #685 on: April 26, 2017, 09:57:40 pm »
So you now have to pay the same price as 20 years ago to get a 100 MHz scope with 2+16 channels? Really?

20 years ago a 2x CD burner costed 1000 USD.
These days a 20x DVD burner costs 50 USD.
20 times cheaper and 10x better specs on the writing speed.

Sampling rate for scope has obviously increased over the years.
But price should have reduced as well, as in the CD/DVD burner example above.

But we shouldn't focus on the price alone.

The whole point is that a brand new 2017 scope without a built-in LA doesn't make sense, given that HP already indicated so explicitly in 1997.

Back in 1997 already (which is 20 years ago for the record), HP engineers wrote that a scope without a logic analyzer isn't doing the job anymore for testing electronic systems designed in the nineties.

We are now 20 years later, so how could a scope without a logic analyzer do the job now in 2017 for testing electronic systems that have further evolved over a period of 20 years?

HP engineers knew this already back in 1997. Where did they loose it?
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97.htm
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 08:15:25 am by pascal_sweden »
 

Offline serggio

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #686 on: April 26, 2017, 10:06:07 pm »
I use not so long DSOX1000 series, and i can like it, but I noticed some inconvenience/minuses from my point of view.
- It's not possible change time format to 24h, so meter always show 12h time format on display, but on screenshots it always 24h :o Need to be add possibility to setup time format by user and keep it same for screen and memory prints
- Probes seems to be well done with gold plated tips, but hook tips included with probes and ground lead  - really piece of shit. Hook tips scratched probe tips plating when you joint/disjoint it on the probe or try to turn hook tip attached on the probe. After some time you'll have have deep scratches on the probe tips.  :-- contact inside the hook lead very coarse, seems to be able scratch any plating, nickel and etc..  Ground leads seems to be same bad quality..
- Even been perfectly compensated, after some time probes not give me same fine picture after some time of using scope (probably 1-2 hour) and after checking probe compensation again it seems just slightly  under compensated. I tried to do fine compensation for both probes after 20 min warm up my scope and repeat check it again after one hour of using scope, I seen just slight under compensation for my probes. Probably input chain is slightly unstable, I don't know exactly  :-//
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 10:08:53 pm by serggio »
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #687 on: April 26, 2017, 10:20:09 pm »
- Even been perfectly compensated, after some time probes not give me same fine picture after some time of using scope (probably 1-2 hour) and after checking probe compensation again it seems just slightly  under compensated. I tried to do fine compensation for both probes after 20 min warm up my scope and repeat check it again after one hour of using scope, I seen just slight under compensation for my probes. Probably input chain is slightly unstable, I don't know exactly  :-//

The input capacitance of the oscilloscope is probably changing as it warms up which is a bad sign.  Is the compensation consistent as the high impedance input attenuators are switched in and out?
 

Offline TK

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #688 on: April 26, 2017, 10:37:10 pm »
The basic serial decodes available currently for the 1000X series (UART, i2c and SPI) should be free... current price is probably unattractive for distributors to promote it and if bundled for free with the scope, could generate a lot of new sales
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 10:41:58 pm by TK »
 
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Online Keysight DanielBogdanoff

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #689 on: April 26, 2017, 11:14:48 pm »
@pascal_sweden - I won't get into the details of product planning, etc., but essential what Mike is saying is right. The HP was our lower end scope at the time, but the 1000 X-Series is really a different class of instrument - it's not a fair compare. Also, what people are doing with scopes and logic analyzers has changed dramatically in 20 years. The logic market used to be hundreds and hundreds of millions of $, and now it's not. Including digital channels would increase the cost and price of the scope - something our planners weren't willing to do.

@serggio, thanks for the feedback! I'll pass it along to the team. We do extensive reliability and stress testing on the probes, so I doubt scratching will cause measurement problems in the long run. For the compensation, I'd definitely make sure the scope fully warms up and stays in a temperature stable environment. I'll leave one connected overnight here and see what happens.
 

Offline TK

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #690 on: April 26, 2017, 11:35:21 pm »
Let's compare all the 100 MHz entry level scopes from HP/Agilent/Keysight over the years:

1997: HP54645D: 100 MHz, 2+16 channels
2011: MSOX2012A: 100 MHz, 2+8 channels
2017: DSOX1102G: 100 MHz, 2+0 channels

Evolutionary approach? From 16 to 0 digital channels!
The DSOX1102G has 2+1 channels, so technically it is still an MSO
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #691 on: April 27, 2017, 01:10:43 am »
HP engineers knew this already back in 1997. Where did they loose it?
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97.htm

They probably lost it when they had to read the same comment three times in a row, on the same day, from the same guy...  :P
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #692 on: April 27, 2017, 01:24:52 am »
Did you really read the first and second paragraph from the provided HP Journal link?

Back in 1997 already (which is 20 years ago for the record), HP engineers wrote that a scope without a logic analyzer isn't doing the job anymore for testing electronic systems designed in the nineties.

We are now 20 years later, so how could a scope without a logic analyzer do the job now in 2017 for testing electronic systems that have further evolved over a period of 20 years?

HP engineers knew this already back in 1997. Where did they loose it?
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/97apr/apr97.htm

Please check the first and second paragraph of the link above.

The 1000 X-Series should have been a modern version of the HP54645D.



HP product released in 1997 (20 years ago):

The Keysight 54645D 100-MHz 200-MSa/s Mixed Signal Oscilloscope seamlessly integrates logic channels into an oscilloscope to offer new measurement capability for designers of combined analog and digital systems. Analog and digital on one display, aligned in time, to help you isolate cause and effect in complex circuits.

New measurement capability in 1997. Which now is not there anymore in 2017? Really?

That was in the days where everything was designed around parallel buses. Things have changed and most buses have been consolidated into a serial bus of some sort which is why the wide bus logic analyser is superfluous in most cases and being replaced by protocol analysis in the scope itself.
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #693 on: April 27, 2017, 08:11:18 am »
Dear Keysight Product Management. Can you please comment on the below?
Thanks,
Pascal

So you now have to pay the same price as 20 years ago to get a 100 MHz scope with 2+16 channels? Really?

20 years ago a 2x CD burner costed 1000 USD.
These days a 20x DVD burner costs 50 USD.
20 times cheaper and 10x better specs on the writing speed.

Sampling rate for scope has obviously increased over the years.
But price should have reduced as well, as in the CD/DVD burner example above.

MSOX3012 100MHz, 16+2 channels. Same price as 54645D when it was released.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 08:15:53 am by pascal_sweden »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #694 on: April 27, 2017, 08:15:52 am »
That was in the days where everything was designed around parallel buses. Things have changed and most buses have been consolidated into a serial bus of some sort which is why the wide bus logic analyser is superfluous in most cases and being replaced by protocol analysis in the scope itself.
Exactly - I can't recall the last time I used more than 8 digital channels.

Of course this is exactly why scopes should include serial decode for SPI, I2C and UART as standard.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #695 on: April 27, 2017, 08:18:08 am »
Dear Keysight Product Management. Can you please comment on the below?
Thanks,
Pascal

So you now have to pay the same price as 20 years ago to get a 100 MHz scope with 2+16 channels? Really?

20 years ago a 2x CD burner costed 1000 USD.
These days a 20x DVD burner costs 50 USD.
20 times cheaper and 10x better specs on the writing speed.

Sampling rate for scope has obviously increased over the years.
But price should have reduced as well, as in the CD/DVD burner example above.

MSOX3012 100MHz, 16+2 channels. Same price as 54645D when it was released.
Comparison to consumer electronics is ridiculous - the volumes are orders of magnitude higher.
Nobody's forcing you to buy Keysight - if you want the most function for the lowest cost, go buy a cheap Chinese scope.
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Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #696 on: April 27, 2017, 08:25:18 am »
My example related to consumer electronics was extreme, to get everybody's attention.

I am not saying that the MSOX3012 should be 20 times cheaper than the HP54645D,
but it should not have exactly the same price tag either.

At least the price should have halved over the past 20 years, and the increased sampling rate just comes as an extra by the technological evolution of the current state of the industry.
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #697 on: April 27, 2017, 08:50:51 am »
My example related to consumer electronics was extreme, to get everybody's attention.

I am not saying that the MSOX3012 should be 20 times cheaper than the HP54645D,
but it should not have exactly the same price tag either.

At least the price should have halved over the past 20 years, and the increased sampling rate just comes as an extra by the technological evolution of the current state of the industry.

It has halved over the past 20 years.   Do you really think you're making the same net amount as someone in a similar position was 20 years ago?  No.  You're almost certainly making quite a lot more.   Twice as much, actually, if you're in the U.S.

What matters isn't the numerical price.  What matters is how much time you have to spend working in order to make that amount.
 
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Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #698 on: April 27, 2017, 09:08:57 am »
Prices should have gone down over the past 20 years. Salaries are irrelevant in this discussion.

If the Chinese manufacturers can do it, why not the American manufacturers? Everything is produced in China anyhow.

In fact Chinese scopes are not subject to the basic flaws that were discovered recently on this American scope. And no, this is not a software problem. This is a plain hardware problem. Way to go Keysight!

- Even been perfectly compensated, after some time probes not give me same fine picture after some time of using scope (probably 1-2 hour) and after checking probe compensation again it seems just slightly  under compensated. I tried to do fine compensation for both probes after 20 min warm up my scope and repeat check it again after one hour of using scope, I seen just slight under compensation for my probes. Probably input chain is slightly unstable, I don't know exactly  :-//

Chinese scopes do have some software issues, but at least these can all be fixed in software.

And although the probes can be a bit flimsy, at least they don't scratch over time. Way to go Keysight!

- Probes seems to be well done with gold plated tips, but hook tips included with probes and ground lead  - really piece of shit. Hook tips scratched probe tips plating when you joint/disjoint it on the probe or try to turn hook tip attached on the probe. After some time you'll have have deep scratches on the probe tips.  :-- contact inside the hook lead very coarse, seems to be able scratch any plating, nickel and etc..  Ground leads seems to be same bad quality..

It seems that this American company has become the "Lenovo" of oscilloscopes,
while Chinese companies have become the "Toyota" of oscilloscopes.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 09:11:32 am by pascal_sweden »
 

Offline Fred27

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Re: NEW 100MHz Keysight Scope Release on 1st March 2017
« Reply #699 on: April 27, 2017, 09:42:51 am »
There's no point arguing about what price something should be for the features it has. The only thing that determines that is market forces.

Imagine a company made the crappiest scope ever, it cost $1 to build, and a reasonable number of people were willing to pay $5000 for it. Guess what the price would be...
 
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