Author Topic: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004  (Read 416766 times)

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Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Hi Folks - I started a Tips n Tricks thread on the RTB2000/RTM3000/RTA4000 and will build it out as I get more time:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tips-and-tricks-rs-rtb2000rtm3000rta4000/msg2563692/#msg2563692

Feel free to add your own tips n tricks as well.

-Rich
 
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Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Hi Folks - all PMs replied.

-Rich
 

Offline mubes

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2552 on: August 03, 2019, 10:46:08 pm »
@Rich (+anyone else that's interested),

Is there any chance of getting the UART decode maximum baudrate increased?  It's really the only significant limitation I've bumped into so far in comparison to my MSO4024 daily driver. 3MBaud is a little but low - even protocols like BT HCI H4 run at 4MBaud. Your 'competition' seem to have max limits of 10MBaud...any improvement on the 3 would be handy, and more the better, but if you can get to 12MBaud that's a pretty significant waypoint because it's the max speed of a FTDI USB async adaptor.

I know I'm asking a lot, and the constraint may well be set in hardware, but I figure there's nothing to be lost by asking...even if the higher baudrates have reduced functionality.

Regards
DAVE
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2553 on: August 05, 2019, 01:40:51 am »
Someone asked about this on email, the RTC1002 is on sale:
300MHz, mixed signal with function gen for $1500
https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTC1K-COM2/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/

Didnt' know about this model, looks like a replacement for the Hameg.
Value for money in that 300MHz space?
 

Offline DIPLover

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2554 on: August 05, 2019, 07:15:08 pm »
Someone asked about this on email, the RTC1002 is on sale:
300MHz, mixed signal with function gen for $1500
https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RTC1K-COM2/Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscopes-(MSO)/

Didnt' know about this model, looks like a replacement for the Hameg.
Value for money in that 300MHz space?
Just saw this model today and I am quite interested, but I haven't found any good reviews yet. Looks like an update to the HMO1202 Dave reviewed a few years back. If anybody found a good teardown, please post.

IIRC the old one had amazing FFT controls and responsiveness for the time in this market segment, I wonder if that still holds.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 07:40:04 pm by DIPLover »
 

Offline DIPLover

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2555 on: August 05, 2019, 08:33:14 pm »
After comparing both manuals extensively, this looks like a reskin of the HMO1202.
Specs are almost identical, some differences (some subtle, some not) :

HMO1202 had switchable 50ohm input. This is not present on RTC1000.
Input impedance was 1Mohm with 16pF +- 2pF on HMO, now 1Mohm with 14pF +- 2pF on RTC.

Haven't found anything else yet.
HMO was made in Czech Republic, can't find if that's still true for RTC.

Maybe I'm old, but I preferred the old look.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 08:51:26 pm by DIPLover »
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2556 on: August 06, 2019, 07:25:36 pm »
@Rich (+anyone else that's interested),

Is there any chance of getting the UART decode maximum baudrate increased?  It's really the only significant limitation I've bumped into so far in comparison to my MSO4024 daily driver. 3MBaud is a little but low - even protocols like BT HCI H4 run at 4MBaud. Your 'competition' seem to have max limits of 10MBaud...any improvement on the 3 would be handy, and more the better, but if you can get to 12MBaud that's a pretty significant waypoint because it's the max speed of a FTDI USB async adaptor.

I know I'm asking a lot, and the constraint may well be set in hardware, but I figure there's nothing to be lost by asking...even if the higher baudrates have reduced functionality.

Regards
DAVE
Hi Dave - I'll ping the team, but I think it is unlikely on the RTB2000.  I'll let you know ASAP.

-Rich
 

Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2557 on: August 06, 2019, 07:41:00 pm »
Just FYI - for those interested, we're offering a free webinar on Power Integrity on August 15th.  If you have designs with FPGAs, ASICs, DRAMs, etc in it, you've probably found yourself measuring power rails, which is often called "analyzing power integrity". 

My coworker, Joel Woodward, will be presenting it.  Joel is awesome - super knowledgeable and quite interesting to listen to.  He has a knack for boiling complicated subjects down.  I worked with him at HPAK for years.  He was the product planner on the Infiniium S-Series, InfiniiVision 7000 and is a guru in Power Integrity.  He's currently the lead product planner for Rohde & Schwarz scopes.  Very sharp guy.

More details here (and to register):

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/contests/free-webinar-on-power-integrity/new/#new

Let me know if you have any questions.

-Rich
 
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Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2558 on: August 07, 2019, 07:05:59 pm »
@Rich (+anyone else that's interested),

Is there any chance of getting the UART decode maximum baudrate increased?  It's really the only significant limitation I've bumped into so far in comparison to my MSO4024 daily driver. 3MBaud is a little but low - even protocols like BT HCI H4 run at 4MBaud. Your 'competition' seem to have max limits of 10MBaud...any improvement on the 3 would be handy, and more the better, but if you can get to 12MBaud that's a pretty significant waypoint because it's the max speed of a FTDI USB async adaptor.

I know I'm asking a lot, and the constraint may well be set in hardware, but I figure there's nothing to be lost by asking...even if the higher baudrates have reduced functionality.

Regards
DAVE
As I was afraid, it's a limitation in the FPGA.  We can set up higher baud rates, but only in rough steps that would be unusual and likely not helpful.  Sorry I don't have better news.

-Rich
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2559 on: August 07, 2019, 08:09:36 pm »
Rough steps like 4,6,8 etc. Would be useful
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Offline DIPLover

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2560 on: August 10, 2019, 11:32:55 am »
I received yesterday my new RTC1K-COM2 package. I will post a review in a new thread next week. Is there a specific test you guys would be interested in? So far it seems identical to the HMO1202 Dave tore down in EEVBLOG #842. (Minus 50ohm input, sadly)

Price was $1536 for 300MHz bandwidth, 2 analog + 8 digital channels with logic probe and all serial decoders. This is about 1/3 the price of the equivalent Keysight (MSOX2022A) and in the same ballpark as the Rigol MSO2302A and Siglent SDS2352X-E similarly configured.

It is TINY and the UI is fantastic, so far I am happy.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2561 on: August 11, 2019, 12:01:00 pm »
I received yesterday my new RTC1K-COM2 package. I will post a review in a new thread next week. Is there a specific test you guys would be interested in? So far it seems identical to the HMO1202 Dave tore down in EEVBLOG #842. (Minus 50ohm input, sadly)
Price was $1536 for 300MHz bandwidth, 2 analog + 8 digital channels with logic probe and all serial decoders. This is about 1/3 the price of the equivalent Keysight (MSOX2022A) and in the same ballpark as the Rigol MSO2302A and Siglent SDS2352X-E similarly configured.
It is TINY and the UI is fantastic, so far I am happy.

Does it still have the practically silent fan?
My Hameg was so silent I had no idea is had a fan until I tore it apart.
 

Offline DIPLover

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2562 on: August 11, 2019, 08:21:48 pm »

Does it still have the practically silent fan?
My Hameg was so silent I had no idea is had a fan until I tore it apart.

Yes it is still practically silent. Quieter than anything else I have had in the lab. If I put my ear directly over the fan when I turn the scope on I can hear it spin up (a faint accelerating tick tick tick), then about 3 seconds later, nothing.

There is a good amount of heat coming from the vents at the top left when it's been on for a while so that fan is pushing some air through it.
 

Offline Harjit

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2563 on: August 12, 2019, 05:24:47 am »
@DIPLover, is this a RTB2002/4? I have a RTB2004 and the fan is very loud.
 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2564 on: August 12, 2019, 05:57:45 am »
@DIPLover, is this a RTB2002/4? I have a RTB2004 and the fan is very loud.

You should get that checked. My RTB is quiet enough I never hear it. I believe he was talking about an RTC though.
 

Online KaneTW

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2565 on: August 12, 2019, 08:22:27 am »
I also have a RTB and it's dead silent.
 

Offline DIPLover

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2566 on: August 12, 2019, 11:09:57 am »
@DIPLover, is this a RTB2002/4? I have a RTB2004 and the fan is very loud.

It’s the RTC model. The datasheet gives a maximum noise level of 30.4 dB(A) @ 0.3 meter (1 foot). The noise floor in my basement lab with all the computers off and the windows closed is 28 dB(A) and I can’t hear it, even when concentrating.

 

Offline Hydron

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2567 on: September 16, 2019, 10:43:22 pm »
Is there anything I can do to change the record length in FFT mode to be smaller? Here's why:

I often use the FFT function (love the new improvements) with relatively low frequency spans < 100kHz (think audio frequencies), and then the fixed record size quickly becomes annoying.

For example, looking at a 24kHz span with a 10Hz resolution bandwidth, the resulting window size is only 2400 points, which at the proper Nyquist rate of 48kHz (which the scope chooses) takes 100ms to capture. (The scope actually chooses a different width depending on the chosen windowing function, e.g. 89.04ms for a rectangular window, but I suspect the effective RBW depends on that function.)

However, the fixed record size of 131kSamples (2^17) is much larger than that, taking around 2.7 seconds to fill up at 48kHz. If I choose a lower span or a better RBW, it can get into tens of seconds per update.

In the screenshot, you can see that the window is pretty small in comparison to the record. The good thing is that I can stop the acquisition and move the window around those 2.7s to look at the spectrum at different times, or change the RBW without recapturing, but most of the time I'd rather have the quickest update rate possible, especially for fast-changing signals.

Interestingly, it seems that the scope would do the right thing in Roll mode, but then it does not display the FFT at all anymore (I suspect because there is no actual trigger).
I have just run into this myself, previously had been using large FFT spans (where the update rate is fine) but now I'm trying to measure a changing signal with <10kHz spans and it is _extremely_ annoying and difficult to use in an interactive fashion due to the long acquisition time even when using a modest number of samples.

Rich - if you could pass on this issue (maybe with the suggestion to allow the user to toggle full/limited record sizes) then that would be much appreciated - it's bad enough that I'm stuck using other instruments for this job, where I'd like to be using the (otherwise great) FFT function!
 
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Offline Rich@RohdeScopesUSA

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2568 on: September 17, 2019, 02:21:51 pm »
Is there anything I can do to change the record length in FFT mode to be smaller? Here's why:

I often use the FFT function (love the new improvements) with relatively low frequency spans < 100kHz (think audio frequencies), and then the fixed record size quickly becomes annoying.

For example, looking at a 24kHz span with a 10Hz resolution bandwidth, the resulting window size is only 2400 points, which at the proper Nyquist rate of 48kHz (which the scope chooses) takes 100ms to capture. (The scope actually chooses a different width depending on the chosen windowing function, e.g. 89.04ms for a rectangular window, but I suspect the effective RBW depends on that function.)

However, the fixed record size of 131kSamples (2^17) is much larger than that, taking around 2.7 seconds to fill up at 48kHz. If I choose a lower span or a better RBW, it can get into tens of seconds per update.

In the screenshot, you can see that the window is pretty small in comparison to the record. The good thing is that I can stop the acquisition and move the window around those 2.7s to look at the spectrum at different times, or change the RBW without recapturing, but most of the time I'd rather have the quickest update rate possible, especially for fast-changing signals.

Interestingly, it seems that the scope would do the right thing in Roll mode, but then it does not display the FFT at all anymore (I suspect because there is no actual trigger).
I have just run into this myself, previously had been using large FFT spans (where the update rate is fine) but now I'm trying to measure a changing signal with <10kHz spans and it is _extremely_ annoying and difficult to use in an interactive fashion due to the long acquisition time even when using a modest number of samples.

Rich - if you could pass on this issue (maybe with the suggestion to allow the user to toggle full/limited record sizes) then that would be much appreciated - it's bad enough that I'm stuck using other instruments for this job, where I'd like to be using the (otherwise great) FFT function!
I'll pass this on.

-Rich
 

Offline Hydron

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2569 on: September 17, 2019, 09:52:05 pm »
Thanks Rich.
Ideally if non-131k record lengths are possible (as a toggle or otherwise) it would allow both <131k points (for fast updates at low frequencies, at the expense of fewer FFT points/higher RBW) and >131k points (to allow a longer record to be captured, with FFT performed on a chosen subset of up to 131k points, such as is currently possible with the movable window when using non-maximum RBW). I hope this makes sense!
 

Offline ppeterl

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2570 on: September 18, 2019, 08:43:03 pm »
Is there anything I can do to change the record length in FFT mode to be smaller? Here's why:

I often use the FFT function (love the new improvements) with relatively low frequency spans < 100kHz (think audio frequencies), and then the fixed record size quickly becomes annoying.

For example, looking at a 24kHz span with a 10Hz resolution bandwidth, the resulting window size is only 2400 points, which at the proper Nyquist rate of 48kHz (which the scope chooses) takes 100ms to capture. (The scope actually chooses a different width depending on the chosen windowing function, e.g. 89.04ms for a rectangular window, but I suspect the effective RBW depends on that function.)

However, the fixed record size of 131kSamples (2^17) is much larger than that, taking around 2.7 seconds to fill up at 48kHz. If I choose a lower span or a better RBW, it can get into tens of seconds per update.

In the screenshot, you can see that the window is pretty small in comparison to the record. The good thing is that I can stop the acquisition and move the window around those 2.7s to look at the spectrum at different times, or change the RBW without recapturing, but most of the time I'd rather have the quickest update rate possible, especially for fast-changing signals.

Interestingly, it seems that the scope would do the right thing in Roll mode, but then it does not display the FFT at all anymore (I suspect because there is no actual trigger).

I second this, and the posts above. Since the latest update, the FFT have turned more or less useless for audio - which is my primary use case. @Rich if you're listening, the scope is perfectly capable of providing great FFT for audio use, i.e below 50 kz. For example, Youtuber johnaudiotech use an obsolete Rigol scope to measure amplifiers:

https://youtu.be/b_PnT7lq9Xg?t=774

(I think that's an 1052E). Surely the R&S RTB2k have the capabilities to measure up to that frame rate --- Challenge you're techs with this, and they'll fix it!

--/Peter
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2571 on: September 20, 2019, 04:52:02 pm »
Just checking if this is intended behaviour - I can save a waveform file, but there seems to be no option to re-load it. (RTM3004)
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Online nctnico

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2572 on: September 20, 2019, 04:55:29 pm »
Just checking if this is intended behaviour - I can save a waveform file, but there seems to be no option to re-load it. (RTM3004)
IIRC you should be able to load it into a reference memory trace. But it may depend on the format in which the waveform is saved.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2573 on: September 20, 2019, 06:30:43 pm »
Just checking if this is intended behaviour - I can save a waveform file, but there seems to be no option to re-load it. (RTM3004)
IIRC you should be able to load it into a reference memory trace. But it may depend on the format in which the waveform is saved.
No - that only allows loading CSV files. Also probably not useful if you want to look at decodes on a stored trace
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Online nctnico

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Re: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004
« Reply #2574 on: September 20, 2019, 06:47:18 pm »
Just checking if this is intended behaviour - I can save a waveform file, but there seems to be no option to re-load it. (RTM3004)
IIRC you should be able to load it into a reference memory trace. But it may depend on the format in which the waveform is saved.
No - that only allows loading CSV files. Also probably not useful if you want to look at decodes on a stored trace
Well, if you save as CSV then you should be able to load it. But that does limit the possibilities. Decoding a stored trace is a rare feature -if it even exists- on an oscilloscope. On the RTM3004 the reference traces are decimated versions of the original trace anyway and I guess the same is true for the RTB2004; it would be difficult to deal with references traces at the full memory depth.
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