Author Topic: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004  (Read 409063 times)

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline nowlan

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 639
  • Country: au
I wonder if the sales data is in some prospective somewhere for shareholders.
 

Offline pm.llb

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 21
  • Country: pl
" I would *really* like to see more math functions too.  Maybe that could be a firmware update thing, unless it would bog the processor in the unit down too much.  Apparently it can do a dump of stored data via USB to MATLAB, which is a handy trick"

I'd preffer implementation of lua for own processing alghorithm implementation.
Live data streaming ie. pure AD output for external live procesing will be nice too.
And filter response curve ploting since we have arbitrary generator on board ...
 

Offline agdr

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 102
  • Country: us
    • agdr Audio
I'd preffer implementation of lua for own processing alghorithm implementation.
Live data streaming ie. pure AD output for external live procesing will be nice too.

I was thinking about something like that today!  The scope already supports displaying the screen on a PC via a live stream over Ethernet:

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Project_ac_en_3607-3239_92_v0100.pdf   (opens PDF)

The scope apparently has a built in web server that can display remotely on a PC browser.   I think it has a gigabit ethernet port too.  From the second page in that brochure:


Open an Internet browser on your PC (e.g. Internet Explorer, Chrome or Firefox) and enter the IP address of the oscilloscope into the address bar. The instrument’s web interface will now appear

Click “Livescreen” in the menu on the left to obtain a continuously updated image of the oscilloscope display in your browser (the browser can be resized). You can use the “Remote Front Panel” to fully operate the instrument


So essentially similar to Remote Desktop Connection between two PCs, just with the scope's interface instead:


To interact with the oscilloscope, use the previously described remote front panel. In this view, all elements can be directly controlled. A click on the Autoset button, for example, initiates an autoset just like a press on the real button would do.


I have to wonder how well that will work using Windoze rather than a real-time OS though.  Which reminds me, that is yet another plus of the RTB2000's, I think someone mentioned they run an RTOS, rather than Windows CE.

So... if it can already "livestream" the screen and send control data back over the ethernet link, seems like just a half-step away from creating some programming API's for the scope to allow some (near) real-time waveform processing to happen on the PC. 

 

Offline NA5WH

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 26
  • Country: us
and testequity notes: "Temporarily Sold Out. Delivery for all new orders in 30 days. Place your order before supplies run out completely!"
I ordered mine 2 days ago, almost immediately, from testequity and they told me 6+ weeks today. If they aren't actually sold out already I'd be surprised.

At work occasionally get to play with the very high ten Tek scopes in our product development and testing department... and had a good old CRO-scope when I was younger. Haven't had one in more than a decade, but was in the market...  was following along ScopeMonth... and was weighing that and the Rigol... but saw the general specs, and based on what I want to do with it was sold.  Only thing I haven't seen really visible so far on the videos is what its persistence looks like beyond the 50ms thing, if any.  But more interested in some ham radio uses, as well as some moderate speed analouge circuits and micro-controllers. 

I guess I do have some worry about the scopes processing power. Maybe it is just everything I've seen has had the 50ms persistence, but it seems like the displayed waveform update rate is really slow to me. I'm sure its just the nature of the videos that have so-far been released.   And I would like to see a bit more on the math functions, but I don't have a pressing need for them at present.


I ordered about 2 days ago as well... but I haven't gotten a date from TestEQ.. just a sales order acknowledgement and a typical "this is what else we do" type account email thing (new sales lead stuff).  Really hate being parted with my money for 6 weeks from purchase to at-my-door when talking that sum of money... but I'm not in a super hurry. Just was expecting near-instant ship due to it basically say "the distributors are stocked" on one of the product release things.  I guess they had higher demand than anticipated.





it says: "Audible noise | maximum sound pressure level at a distance of 1.0 m | 28.3 dB(A)"
anybody has an idea how loud this is? from google it looks pretty silent, but actually I have no real feeling for how


28.3 dB(A) is reasonably quiet. Does depend on where and how that measurement is taken (is it inline with the fan port, etc). The "silent" pc fans are in the low 20s. A typical home during the day would be in the upper 40s low 50s typically. Anything under about 6 dB(A) from the room environment is going to be very hard to hear (unless it has a very distinct tone). I suspect it has a fan in it, its pretty hard to keep high-speed chips cool passively.  And its well within the range of a typical case fan. If it was passively cooled it would likely be sub 20 dB(A) (getting down into psu coil whine, clock noise, etc).   I know its a design thing, but wish more test-gear manufactures could follow what has happened in the home PC market, and go for nothing smaller than 120mm.. 140mm where possible. There are a couple of pieces at work that have effectively 40mm server fans that scream along at 60-70 dB(A). Bigger fans can pump more cfm at lower rpm.




 
The following users thanked this post: ws2812b

Offline pm.llb

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 21
  • Country: pl

So... if it can already "livestream" the screen and send control data back over the ethernet link, seems like just a half-step away from creating some programming API's for the scope to allow some (near) real-time waveform processing to happen on the PC.

They streaming live wave and controll scope via HTML. I assume it's HTML5 nowdays.
It means websocket probably too. If it is ws:// and not wss:// it will be the most "buy this one" recomended scope ever   ;D
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 06:52:27 am by pm.llb »
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9728
  • Country: 00
This is quieter than my electric wall clock.

That's that cleared up, then.  :-DD
 

Online maginnovision

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 885
  • Country: us
At work occasionally get to play with the very high ten Tek scopes in our product development and testing department... and had a good old CRO-scope when I was younger. Haven't had one in more than a decade, but was in the market...  was following along ScopeMonth... and was weighing that and the Rigol... but saw the general specs, and based on what I want to do with it was sold.  Only thing I haven't seen really visible so far on the videos is what its persistence looks like beyond the 50ms thing, if any.  But more interested in some ham radio uses, as well as some moderate speed analouge circuits and micro-controllers. 

I guess I do have some worry about the scopes processing power. Maybe it is just everything I've seen has had the 50ms persistence, but it seems like the displayed waveform update rate is really slow to me. I'm sure its just the nature of the videos that have so-far been released.   And I would like to see a bit more on the math functions, but I don't have a pressing need for them at present.


I ordered about 2 days ago as well... but I haven't gotten a date from TestEQ.. just a sales order acknowledgement and a typical "this is what else we do" type account email thing (new sales lead stuff).  Really hate being parted with my money for 6 weeks from purchase to at-my-door when talking that sum of money... but I'm not in a super hurry. Just was expecting near-instant ship due to it basically say "the distributors are stocked" on one of the product release things.  I guess they had higher demand than anticipated.

That's the other thing, I ordered and there was no indication it was going to be a month and a half, it was just in stock. Couple days later though... I'm normally fine with it but I have another baby due in... 6 weeks. Sort of unfortunate timing?. Even more when I have an actual project I intended this to be for, which was also supposed to be done before then.

I'm also assuming it's probably similar to or better than their HMO 1002/1202 series scope with regards to the display. The waveforms/second is 50k which is similar to most scopes in this range now. I do assume the display update rate is not great. Using RTOS, lack of math functions, the scrolling menus not being terribly smooth all make me think the processor is weak and possibly feeds into poor display refresh rate. Doesn't help that they're trying to push so many more pixels at the same time. It is possible RTOS was used just to have more deterministic timing and flexibility though. If nothing else the long wait gives you plenty of time to change your mind if it turns out not to be to your liking.

Despite not actually caring that much, with 6 weeks to wait I have nothing else to do but speculate. Can't wait for some decent video of the thing.
 

Offline ws2812b

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 50
  • Country: at
it says: "Audible noise | maximum sound pressure level at a distance of 1.0 m | 28.3 dB(A)"
anybody has an idea how loud this is? from google it looks pretty silent, but actually I have no real feeling for how


28.3 dB(A) is reasonably quiet. Does depend on where and how that measurement is taken (is it inline with the fan port, etc). The "silent" pc fans are in the low 20s. A typical home during the day would be in the upper 40s low 50s typically. Anything under about 6 dB(A) from the room environment is going to be very hard to hear (unless it has a very distinct tone). I suspect it has a fan in it, its pretty hard to keep high-speed chips cool passively.  And its well within the range of a typical case fan. If it was passively cooled it would likely be sub 20 dB(A) (getting down into psu coil whine, clock noise, etc).   I know its a design thing, but wish more test-gear manufactures could follow what has happened in the home PC market, and go for nothing smaller than 120mm.. 140mm where possible. There are a couple of pieces at work that have effectively 40mm server fans that scream along at 60-70 dB(A). Bigger fans can pump more cfm at lower rpm.

Thanks. So you can scrap your wall clock as there seems to be one in the upper right corner of the UI :-D.

But does anyone have a comparable audible noise figure for a pricewise similar scope? Didn't find anything in the dpo2000b and msox2000 specs?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 08:48:21 am by ws2812b »
 

Offline MrW0lf

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 921
  • Country: ee
    • lab!fyi
I'd preffer implementation of lua for own processing alghorithm implementation.

Why Lua? JavaScript is much more widely known, and there is V8. Quick Google results:
https://realmensch.org/2016/05/28/goodbye-lua/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8_(JavaScript_engine)
For web-developer moving into Arduino is a breeze because it's almost like JavaScript.
Think JavaScript-like processing will reach wider audience.

 

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11937
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Just how many scopes at the various levels are sold worldwide each year -  anyone know ?

It looks like it will cost you more than a new RTB2004 to find out: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-oscilloscope-industry-2015-market-research-reports-505818511.html
I've always been rather skeptical about these expensive market reports, more so the ones that try to make future projections ( sometimes to 3 significant figures) - only the manufacturers really know, and there is no way to know how good the data is. My guess is they're full of marketing waffle for Marketing Suits. Maybe I'm just being too cynical - would love to see one.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29234
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
I don't believe that. Scopes have been high priced all this time. You can get a rigol for 400 but, while it's insanely popular, it's not the only scope people buy. This isn't that much different than keysight giving away alot of scopes, except R&S still make money since most of the options are just software codes.

You know, I often wonder about that.  Do they lose money on their base 70MHz models, and they expecting most people upgrade to at least a break even level, or are the base models profitable, and every license key you buy above that is just pure profit gravy?

I've been told that hardly anyone buys the 70MHz to 100MHz upgrade, and you'd expect that, it's bugger-all.
They would not be selling at a loss, bet your bottom dollar.
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11937
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
I don't believe that. Scopes have been high priced all this time. You can get a rigol for 400 but, while it's insanely popular, it's not the only scope people buy. This isn't that much different than keysight giving away alot of scopes, except R&S still make money since most of the options are just software codes.

You know, I often wonder about that.  Do they lose money on their base 70MHz models, and they expecting most people upgrade to at least a break even level, or are the base models profitable, and every license key you buy above that is just pure profit gravy?

I've been told that hardly anyone buys the 70MHz to 100MHz upgrade, and you'd expect that, it's bugger-all.
They would not be selling at a loss, bet your bottom dollar.
I'd bet that more bandwidth upgrade options get given away as promotions or deal sweetners than get sold.  Especially the minimal change from 70 to 100. If it was 70 to 150 or 200, maybe more would sell.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline Neganur

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1114
  • Country: fi
Regarding MATLAB and accessing real time data, I found this video on the R&S website:

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/videos_5/application_5/RTB2000_USB_live_file_and_setup_access_720p_HQ.mp4

Starting at time mark 0:35 there is a laptop connected via USB showing file access to live data like the screen and channel data (folder names: Bus, Channel, FFT, Logic, Math, Reference).

There is a folder called \Live Data\Channel in which there apparently is access to Acquisition Memory and Display Data.
In the Display Data folder there seems to be a 6.98MB large csv file "CH1.CSV" and in the video this file is opened with Excel.

On trade shows here in Helsinki I've seen the R&S guy demonstrate the RTO scope connected to a software very similar to Keysight's 89600 VSA software and I wonder if the data in the 'Live Data' folder is indeed updated fast enough to be able to use this as somewhat 'live stream' of data (probably not, it's a lot of data).

EDIT: there is also some basic data export code snippet (via SCPI commands) on page 111 of the manual: https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_manuals/gb_1/r/rtb_1/RTB_UserManual_en_01.pdf
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 10:30:11 am by Neganur »
 

Online coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4381
  • Country: gb
Just how many scopes at the various levels are sold worldwide each year -  anyone know ?

It looks like it will cost you more than a new RTB2004 to find out: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/global-oscilloscope-industry-2015-market-research-reports-505818511.html
I've always been rather skeptical about these expensive market reports, more so the ones that try to make future projections ( sometimes to 3 significant figures) - only the manufacturers really know, and there is no way to know how good the data is. My guess is they're full of marketing waffle for Marketing Suits. Maybe I'm just being too cynical - would love to see one.
I agree about the dodgy figures in most of these expensive reports. You can find historic figures for some classic scopes on the web, and I've no reason to doubt their validity. Things like the HP1740A and Tek 465 seemed to sell a few 10s of k over a fairly long (maybe 10 year) production life in the 70s and 80s. I think that leads to 2 questions - How would that scale to sales of 6-12 month salary scopes today? How would that scale to sales of 100MHz scopes today?

Last year sellers of the DS1054Z in Shenzhen kept displaying that Rigol had sold 10k, then 20k, then 30k, and I think the last figure I saw was 40k. There was only a few weeks between each of those steps.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17162
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Just how many scopes at the various levels are sold worldwide each year -  anyone know ?
Look at Rigol DS1054Z stock levels at Tequipment for example. Around Christmas they had over 2000 units in stock after they had sold loads of the and currently they have over 1300 units left. I think they sell at least somewhere between 1000 and 2000 units each year. After all a DMM and an oscilloscope are the bare essential tools if you want to do something with electronics.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline stuartk

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 102
  • Country: ca
I've been trying to snag one in Canada.

I have yet to hear back from Test Force.

Hopefully Monday.
 

Offline irakandjii

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 50
  • Country: ca
This is quieter than my electric wall clock.

That's that cleared up, then.  :-DD

Just for fun I thought I would explain a little more. :popcorn:

 :-DD  Just to illustrate I have attached a link to an official "scale" that compares sound pressure levels.

http://www.smgov.net/uploadedImages/Departments/OSE/Categories/Landscape/Sound_Level_Chart.jpg

The vast majority of audible noise in electronics is driven by cooling fans.  I hate fan noise so generally replace fans in computers etc.  A really good PWM PC fan with <30 db and reasonable flow rate will cost ~$15.00-$20.00 retail vs <$2.00 for a cheap industrial one . 

Noise in fans comes from 3 main sources, bearings, turbulence from obstructions chopping the air flow (usually bracing) and turbulence coming from poor blade design, blade dirt or manufacture defects.  Traditional computer and PSU fans generate 40 to 50 dba of noise at full RPM.  Most teardowns I have watched on eevblog show these cheap industrial fans in the scopes. 

Mitigation:
If you halve (50%) the sound pressure level (spl) you will drop about 3db, example: if I have 2 fans and remove one I will get a 3db drop.  Now that means a regular industrial fan @  ~41 db fan is about 64X more energized  than  a 23 db fan. (this means it is perceived to be about 6X quieter)

Next, air flow rate which is proportional to fan RPM, is the dependent variable that creates noise levels and removes heat. It is generally a non linear function.  So, lower fan speeds will be a lot quieter.   This why "cheap" computer case makers have increased fan sizes.  The volume of air flow is a function of (flow rate X Area).  So doubling the diameter of a fan provides 4X the air flow (per rpm) which in theory (stretch) doubles the heat removal from the system or cuts RPM by 4X for the same dissipation. 

It is much cheaper in a large PC case to throw a big, cheap, non-pwm fan in the case and then use marketing to sell the kids on just how cool this looks. (pun intended)
 
The other way to reduce noise is to adjust fan speeds downward to just match the air flow required to meet thermal transfer requirement (PWM fans) These are more expensive and require control circuitry.  They are now the solution of choice in better quality computer equipment (PSU, Video Cards, CPU and case fans).

Now, if you want to engineer for low sound the first thing you do is minimize heat generation by using efficient design, quality components and well placed thermal zones on the PCB.  Ideally achieving a purely passive solution.  However, I am sure we all know, that this level of engineering is a complex game that optimizes cost, features, complexity and function.

Once the thermal load function from a device is known,  the airflow required to cool it is  "determined".    I assume that thermal point loads in a "scope" would not need or require heat pipes or other more expensive esoteric cooling solutions.  At least I have not seen it yet in a mid scope teardown.

Since heat is usually a function of "load" the quietest solution will generally have the following characteristic.

1) No fan stage - use of passive cooling only  (Characteristically large cooling grate big holes and lots of them.  Minimally obstructed air flow over cooling elements )
2) Fan Stage  - Fan is under PWM control to vary the flow rate as needed and minimize fan RPM noise. Not necessary if you engineered for a low thermal load and maximized passive cooling options. (engineering in style) .. an inexpensive fan at low RPM.

It will be interesting to see Dave's teardown of the RTB2004,  Based on the pictures ..  Lots of Big holes ..  unobstructed interior.. extremely low measured sound specification.   
My guess.. RTB scopes are a properly engineered solution designed for the long term.  Part of why I bought one. :-+

BTW the 25 db from my wall clock comes from the click of the second hand when your ear is about 75 cm away. a soft whisper like "tick" sadly there is no "tock" 

SPL meters are so fun .. NOT!
 
The following users thanked this post: ws2812b

Offline irakandjii

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 50
  • Country: ca
I've been trying to snag one in Canada.

I have yet to hear back from Test Force.

Hopefully Monday.

I called them directly by phone to place my order.  It was placed with the local office here in Ottawa.
 

Offline stuartk

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 102
  • Country: ca
Quote
I called them directly by phone to place my order.  It was placed with the local office here in Ottawa.

Hi irakandjii, I live in Ottawa also.

If I may ask, what did they charge you in Canadian funds?

Regards,

Stuart
 

Offline pm.llb

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 21
  • Country: pl
I'd preffer implementation of lua for own processing alghorithm implementation.

Why Lua? JavaScript is much more widely known, and there is V8. Quick Google results:
https://realmensch.org/2016/05/28/goodbye-lua/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8_(JavaScript_engine)
For web-developer moving into Arduino is a breeze because it's almost like JavaScript.
Think JavaScript-like processing will reach wider audience.

Lua because it's simplicity. But you are right it can be dead end now.
JavaScript ?  If the result will be still on the web - OK.
For advanced maths processing let's go further - Python + numpy or API for MathLab even.
Works from Raspi to superpower machines.
But hey - I've read the users manual. They  provide it's own command language engine
accessible via web ... doors for external computing has already been opened :-)

By the way: Have you noticed that tequipment gives special discount for eevblog memebers ? :
https://youtu.be/oQdEq5BHoyQ

Is RTB2004 price droping ?   ... just kidding :D


« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 03:51:29 pm by pm.llb »
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17162
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
What happened to this video? Why are there black bars on the side? Make his hands look big and face look small? :palm: Yes this is a rethorical question to point out something stupid!  :box:
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11937
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline pm.llb

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 21
  • Country: pl
Regarding MATLAB and accessing real time data, I found this video on the R&S website:

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/videos_5/application_5/RTB2000_USB_live_file_and_setup_access_720p_HQ.mp4

This document also provides some info.

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/RTB2000_Import_ac_en_3607-0446-92_v0100.pdf

Thank you for those sources. It can be usefull in case of postprocessing.
I'm thinking rather of upgrading lack of math functions of RTB2004. That means live processing data
and compute live stream on the fly ...
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 04:12:16 pm by pm.llb »
 

Offline irakandjii

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 50
  • Country: ca
Quote
I called them directly by phone to place my order.  It was placed with the local office here in Ottawa.

Hi irakandjii, I live in Ottawa also.

If I may ask, what did they charge you in Canadian funds?

Regards,

Stuart

It was the standard 1.37 exchange rate times the $2080.00 US price.  The exchange rate sux.
 

Offline pm.llb

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 21
  • Country: pl
Is there somewhere deep comparision table between RTO RTE RTM and RTB ?
Why it's better (?) of buying 400MHz 14k$ used RTO rather than 300MHz new RTB2004 2k$ ( special) or 7k$ regular with options ?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 10:33:02 am by pm.llb »
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf